I know a couple local guys using them. Also know some guys who turn their amps, to the Wall, so sound comes out the back only. I used to use a twin Reverb in the 70's live, but we were not a loud band at all, we could not be having practiced in neighborhoods, and small rooms.
Like the other comment it did also make me think of the late, great Jeff Beck and his "trick" of pointing his Marshall 4x12's and his Pro Juniors backwards so as not to "kill" everyone else in the band and first few rows! Myself I don't do many gigs these days (mostly acoustic anyway) but the last few amped up gigs I've used my Blonde Tone Master Deluxe Reverb with the "attenuator" aka "master volume" set according to the venue or setting. I've still never used it on full power yet but its done the job perfectly every time.
We do need to stop being so meek and accept having to compromise and compromise and compromise and turn down, turn down, turn down. There is a reasonable compromise that can be made, but when electric guitarists are talking about “maybe we shouldn’t play through amps at all” then that should be a clear indication that we have compromised too far. A guitar amplifier turned up loud enough that the guitarist can hear themselves onstage and play with some dynamic range is NOT too loud, I don’t give a damn what anyone says. If everyone is always telling you to turn down when you’re playing through a Deluxe Reverb on 4, the problem isn’t that your amp is turned up too loud, the problem is that you need to play better. That’s gonna ruffle some feathers, but it’s true. The answer is to play with more sensitivity and dynamics, not to turn the amp down, killing your dynamic range and actually just making everything sound worse. The problem is that just because amplifiers CAN be turned down to nothing, the expectation is that they SHOULD. Sound engineers accept that a drumset is going to be, to a certain extent, naturally loud. So they mix the sound with that in mind. Guitarists simply aren’t given that same grace. They’re told to relinquish all the volume to the PA system, rather than fostering an environment where the sound from the PA and the sound from/on the stage are balanced and in harmony and everyone’s happy. RE: “Well, good luck not getting any gigs/not getting paid”…hey man, I get that. You gotta put food on the table. And sometimes getting paid is clearly so much more important than getting that sweet ToAn. But let’s be honest, is it even effing worth it any more? Bands are still getting paid what they were getting paid in 1990, and we can’t even play as loud as they could or have as much fun as they could. I hate to say it, but if making a living is your concern, you might want to consider getting a job at the post office or something. Slogging through a bunch of songs you don’t even like at uninspiring volumes for poverty money…worth it? Up to you, I guess. Guitarists have compromised and accepted certain “realities” for a LONG time now. We’ve been VERY patient, but it’s time to start asserting certain other things that venue owners and sound workers need to accept: 1. A live band is not a jukebox. There isn’t a simple master volume knob you can turn up or down. They are playing live instruments and in order for them to hear themselves and one another well enough to play the show, there is a certain volume ceiling that is non-negotiable. If that volume floor is too loud for you, don’t hire a band. Simple as. 2. A live band consists of people. People who have bills to pay and who have worked very hard for many years to be able to perform music to a professional standard for your enjoyment. It is, in many senses, skilled labor. PAY THEM. It doesn’t need to be an exorbitant sum, but the same dollar amount as 30 years ago is obviously not enough any more. If you can’t afford to pay the band, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
Before anyone comes at me in the comments with some crap about “you’re inexperienced, once you get a few gigs under your belt you’ll understand how the real world works blah blah”, no. I’m 36 years old and have put THOUSANDS of gigs under my belt over the past 20 years. I’m well aware of how “the real world works” re: the sad trend towards silent stages, and I’m sick of it. Especially for how little we get paid, I’m done compromising. It’s time to fight back.
@@johnballantyne3458 It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll........anyone else besides me remember "if it's too loud.....you're too old"?
I dunno man. I know I'm outside looking in. I'm a classical tuba player, and there's a lot of chameleon work playing with different groups. The second I say, "screw you I do this the way I want" is the day I never get called for the gig again. This is coming from a tuba player that has looked at bringing instruments other than tuba (like bass trombone, but then I realised that would be another $7000 expense for me) to a gig to better suit the environment. I have played guitar for 20 years, but I don't gig it, so I may be out of step here.
Drummer weighing in -- there's no reason that a drummer shouldn't also be prepared for various volume situations like a guitarist. At the very least, plenty of sound deadening gels should always be on hand. If you're serious, have multiple drumsets and cymbal set ups for various volume requirements. My "quiet" acoustic set up included cheap Sabian B8 cymbals. They weren't the coolest looking piece of gear, but I could fully open them up rather than guys with nice cymbals that could barely hit them hard enough to get a full sound and keep quiet. Also, electronic drums exist.
We did a filming session earlier in the year where the drummer had some of those quiet like stunt cymbals that actually sounded pretty good (relatively) and might be useful for those dreaded limiter gigs? And on the eKit thing - we had one venue this year where it was line array and eKit (mandatory) - it actually wasn't as bad as I was expecting...
The 2020s is the Era of the Pansy..."tube amps are loud and heavy, so I'll pretend digital sounds just as good"...remember going to shows and feeling a natural high for the rest of the night from the sound waves beating on you for a few hours?
@@jasondorsey7110 I got rid of my valve amps as they weighed 60lb plus apart from the tiny Electar I wish I'd kept. But back then, 5W was considered insufficient to gig with. Had I kept the Electar I'd have got it modified to add a loop to add reverb, though, somehow. And swap out the tiny speaker.
@@jasondorsey7110 there's something to be said for the power you feel when it's loud and the apparent interaction between the field of sound around you and the strings, which seem to come alive. I know it's subjective, but if it's quiet the strings feel stiffer. From a sound engineer's perspective, I can see the benefit of a quiet stage, though. And for the hearing of anyone on stage unless everyone wears earplugs. I have an IEM system I've never used as I worry that I might get screaming feedback from a microphone fed directly into my brain, although with the more common use of feedback suppressors and quiet stages that's now relatively uncommon. It used to be every gig when the singer carelessly pointed a microphone at a monitor while the drummer was making some sort of random adjustment to the kit.
I think that there is a special relationship and sound between a real guitar amp and acoustic drums on stage that just can’t be beat. Especially with loud drumming. But also with a light and dynamic drummer. I always base my sound and volume on the drums first and then the full band mix. Cymbals and guitar amp blend is important I believe.
@@JohnWiku I'd argue with that. A lot of WEA catalog stuff from the '70s-80s has been reissued in the past ten years and you'd be hard pressed to find any new masters that sound better than the originals. OTOH, all of the stereo Beatles stuff they've done since '09 sounds great. It's a case-by-case basis.
So it's for obnoxious corksniffers? Reality most of these guys complaining about amps can't play for shit and have no ear. Rhett Shull gear head types.
This is why we've moved to 100% digital with digital drums and In Ear Monitors. We play weddings, wineries, breweries, and private parties. We can adjust our sound to any level needed for the venue. We even needed to play inside a host's living room when it rained at their private party. With the IEMs, I can play as loud as I find comfortable. It's not as fun a playing with an amp but we are getting to play and the venues like us because we aren't driving away their customers.
@@MotownGuitarJoe Our band leader is very progressive and was still on the fence. Our drummer and other guitar player wanted no part of it. But, we'd had several gigs where our stage volume made a mess and everyone (except me who was already using IEMs) struggled with the gig. I was the only one on IEMs and the others tried them and were sold. They were kicking themselves about why we waited so long. The drummer was using a cheap digital kit in our rehearsal space but after months of seeing that they just worked better bought a nice digital kit and he's in love.
Been a pro muso for 50 years. Things change and you adapt and move on. Gone from bands with a Marshall 100w top and 2 4x12's in a tiny pub to Pod pedal and Bose L1 and everything in between. You will find a workaround that fits you. Anyone that wants to play loud should stay in their bedroom and save themselves and others from their talent. Talent will always win through!
I'm 70. Still play 4 times a week. Done 7000 gigs in my lifetime. I always use tube amps, tried all the modelers. Modelers are OK for people who do small gigs, but they do not sound or more importantly, react like tube amps, and when you're touring, or big clubs, amps are king. If I do a small gig, I use a PR, if it's bigger, my DR or silverface bassman. And I do not up the amp super loud, I cover it, and if I need it loud, I turn up my stage monitor. The key is to cover it, usually with a v shaped sound absorber of some sort, you can make your own.
Excellent points John. I would only add that we should also consider protecting our hearing. Pointing a guitar amp directly at your head is going to put a lot of harmful high-end right at your ears. Another point might be to try to play more musically, to think about the overall band sound and how each member is contributing to dynamics, the groove, harmonic complexity, etc. I watched Trapp, Bukovac's show last night. They had a drummer, lots of amps on the stage and a Hammond and Leslie. I don't know how loud it was in the room (I bought the livestream), but it didn't feel loud and they played with a lot of dynamics.
I am a gigging guitarist and play 99% of jobs with a real tube amp. I know how to use it though. Adjust your tone and the volume level to the venue and band and when it sits in the mix right, no one will complain. I do silent stage gigs too, but an amp is always better - sounds better, feels better, sits better in the mix. Just learn to use it!
I would be tempted to agree with the concept… except that DJs and bands today are routinely far louder than the wedding/clubdate bands I worked with back in the 1980s. I am all for the customer dictating volume level; I am NOT for the sound engineer doing the same. But far too many sound engineers today demand the band play quietly - then they turn up FOH to earbleed level. And once that occurs, the IEMs also have to be cranked. If you think loud amps and stage monitors damaged your hearing, wait til a few years of cranked IEMs have done their damage. Ambient loud is one thing; direct-injected loud is something else entirely.
Yeah I thought that comment from Mick was a bit odd imo (I say that respectively) as some gig have to be silent stages. I’m currently doing the show We Will Rock You. I’m literally playing solos in every tune. There are 40 headset microphones on stage, so a modeller is the only option. Literally. So I’m using an FM3 & pedals. It sounds killer. Just reality if you want to do theatre show gigs. I love playing loud but sometimes you just can’t
I agree. I play pit band gigs a lot, use a Helix floor, and we’re all on headphones. Sometimes the drums are acoustic, but sometimes they’re a electronic kit. It honestly sounds better than when I used to use amp / pedals, even though it was an amp with excellent master volume (Fuchs ODS).
Yeah this is so true, I would say 95% of all theatre gigs are direct and even on some function gigs I’ve been asked to not bring an amp. I’m not sure if it’s sometimes because of negative stereotype of guitarists being ‘too loud’ or wanting more control over sound. I totally agree with John in this video that the reality is people have to adapt to work as a guitarist. Personally, I would much prefer to go direct and have a pay cheque than forcibly play a loud amp for the sake of being a ‘guitarist’ whatever that means. As well the thing that no-one seems to mention is that going direct means a more consistent sound, you can actually hear what you sound like through IEMs and this can inform your practice as a guitarist, meaning better technique and rehearsed parts. It’s part and parcel now of being a working guitarist that you have to adapt too.
When your entire career is built around saying the only acceptable way to play guitar is through machines that only sound good at high volumes, you are sort of stuck fighting everyone all the time to demand the right to play at high volumes.
Here's couple of tips for bands that don't use IEM's and only use wedges and real amps/cabs on stage. Set the overall volume to acoustic drums so that guitars and bass are loud enough to be heard over drums. That's about it, no need to be louder than that. Get a good balance between drums, guitars, bass, vocals etc. BEFORE you even go on the stage. Set the cabs to side of the stage, pointing to the band, so they act as monitors for guitars and then there's no need to put them on the wedges so much. That way you can have lead/backing vocals much louder on monitors. Also use supercardioid mics for vocals so there's no bleed from guitars and drums. I've never had any problems and not even once had to turn my amp down to almost zero by sound guys. I use a 100w/50w tube amp with GOOD master volume and depending on the size of the venue and the stage I bring either 4x12 or 2x12 cab. MOST of the time 2x12 is way to go. If I do small duo gig I bring my 20w 1x10 combo. I nowadays use Bluguitar blubox so my FOH sound comes from that, which sounds absolutely killer, and I could totally go direct/silent stage with this rig, but In my opinion bands sound better when you have real cabs on stage versus everything going direct. Guitars especially get buried in the mix very easily and overall sound of the band is muddy. Now on a huge festival stage that doesn't matter cause you won't be hearing the cab anyway, but smaller clubs. Totally different story. Even more when the PA is shit. So it's all about balance and and drummers knowing how to play to a room. Now if you 're playing with a click track/backing tracks forget everything I said and go direct.
This is a cold, hard, fact. During sound check, a timid drummer is going to affect the mix. They need to play at the highest “normal” gig volume during sound check. I hate having to constantly adjust my amp volume because the drummer is now teeing off. Acoustic drums and cymbal frequencies are the template for everything else. That being said, guitarists can help their place in the mix by adding in some midrange. I’m not talking quacky midrange, but too much scoop won’t cut through and you’ll have all kinds of frequency cancellation. Each instrument/player needs to understand how to fit their sonic profile into the mix. Unfortunately, not knowing this leads to just turning up, which exacerbates the problem.
@PhilthyCasual You missed my point. I said check your amp volume accordingly during soundcheck but don't go turning it up during the set. That only causes problems for FOH. Instead ask more guitar in the monitors if possible.
@PhilthyCasual That's a good point. I always trust the soundguy on this since usually it's one guy doing both monitors and foh. My amp is set up so I can hear it properly and have some guitars on my monitor along with lead vocals since I sing lead. It might not be a perfect mix but it almost never is with wedges. But if theres two people for foh and stage monitors, I go for monitor guy if I need to hear myself more and trust the foh to be good anyway. Usually it is.
As a veteran of the functions scene, the reality is....if you don't comply with the venue's rules,you won't get another booking. I mothballed my twin and bought a Blackstar 50r and mic'd. I have noticed guitars being so low in the mix, it's basically drums, bass and singer. I still think everyone should play at the level of the vocalist with a bit of cut through for solos( although I'm our rhythm guitarist).You are there for the paying customers, anything too loud is a bad thing.
I'm so glad I'm retired. Volume is the magic of electric guitar, if dynamics are used. I'd rather played all acoustic than to have to worry about what modern players deal with as far as volume.
The best sounding show I've ever heard was Chon when they played at Webster Hall in NYC during their "Grow" tour. Mario had his Vox Ac30 and Eric was on a Fender Supersonic 22. Remove the fact that these two defined a generation of new guitarists (niche and albeit short lived), their amps were extensions of their guitars. Nothing against modelers or digital rigs as I use them now but there is some truth to Amps being musical instruments in their own right.
I'm 70 years old. I've been playing guitar in bands since 1967. I've played thru everything from 100W Marshall and Ampeg amps (in the '60s and '70s) to a tweed Princeton (5W, 8" spkr) with a mic in front of it. There's a reason they started putting master volume knobs on guitar amps about 50 years ago! Nowadays I play thru little combo amps with 5 or 10 watts and an 8 or 10 inch speaker. I have an original (not a re--issue) '65 Deluxe (no reverb), and to my ears now (not always in the past) that amp is LOUD. I like to hear what I'm doing, but I don't like for my ears to be ringing when I go to bed. And I do NOT play wedding gigs!
Wedding / corporate band player here. I go fully direct with quad cortex, and it sounds good enough through the in ears. However - I have found on multiple occasions when stepping off stage into the crowd (on wireless packs) that I take an in ear out and the sound person has me barely audible. Giving the sound person full control only works if their aesthetic actually suits the situation. There’s no point me playing a nice Nile Roger’s part if no one can hear it! I’d love to stick an amp on stage but with the percentage of venues now having harsh sound restrictions it just isn’t a feasible option as I would be told to turn it down / off anyway.
@@johnnathancordy that really is a classic - taking a solo and realising in the middle of it that the audience haven’t actually noticed! I try to play ball and be a team player stage volume wise - and when even your rhythm playing is not being put adequately out of FOH it makes me question the point of doing the gig at all! Oh to be a sax player where at least the instrument is shiny (and v loud)✨
I luckily play a lot with bands that haven’t gone all iems and I bring a Super for the big catering halls or other kinds of big rooms and a Deluxe for the barns and restaurants. When I started bringing the Super I got so many side-eye looks lol, but once people heard it and how perfect it mixes it’s only been satisfaction and compliments, those amps really were designed to sound great in these very types of bands and scenarios. I believe the tide will turn. It’s our responsibility obviously to bring the right amp for the room (and drummer 😵💫), but the mindset should shift from putting a mic on the amp so that the guitarist will turn it down, and towards a concept that you mic the amp for reinforcement only, to give a little more when needed to fill out the mains mix or to send to monitors other side of big stage.
I think Mick and Dan, though they try, do not really understand that they are in a different situation than many guitarists. The first thing I noticed watching their episode was that you cannot run a DR at 3 or 4 most places these days without a sound a battle. And honestly, I just want to play not battle, trick, practice diplomacy just so I can have an amp on stage. I finally gave in and got a POD Express. It’s great. It fits my budget and does what I need.
Exactly. I watched their video and I enjoy their opinions, but I didn't really think any man who owns a room full of pedals and guitars has great credibility when talking about overcoming 'option paralysis' :) Their situation is very fortunate, and it might also be more common in places like the US, where more housing is detached and has more floor space in general. But if you're living in a typical UK space, and playing in places where the guitar isn't always the most important thing, then volume really is a concern. Whether its a greater concern to you than tone is a personal call!
@@ianwillo yeah. I live in Tokyo. So... I can't do what they do. Also, I bear no grudge but, having a stock of all types of pedals, guitars and amps on hand to use for various situations is a far cry from what most of us can do. I don't have a budget for more than an amp, guitar and a couple of reasonably priced pedals.
@@GraniteSoundtrack Tokyo is a great city! But yes, pretty restrictive on space from what I remember. Is there much of a live music, independent scene there?
@@ianwillo there's live houses for various genres. Not really a pub live scene thing. Pretty pro usually too. There's a lot of tours that go through though. All the big and medium tours come through.
The silent stage is a reality for many gigging musicians in the church, function bands, and large-scale pop gigs. My gigging life is elsewhere, playing jazz clubs in New York and frequently touring with an artist who likes to have energy and vibration on stage: live drums, Hammond organ, electric bass, electric guitar (Deluxe Reverb on 4). We still use wedges, not in-ear monitors. It is difficult for me to get excited about playing music without an amplifier. As good as the technology is these days, it comes down to FEEL for me. Like, if we collectively decided: “We are not using traditional guitars anymore. We are going to use MIDI controllers, with a library of predictably fabulous tones.” That would be a marvel, embraced by many players - but I’d rather stay home. I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade here. This is just my perspective. Do what you love, and adapt to modern-day working realities. There’s so many ways to embrace the guitar!
From playing live and touring for 50yrs there is a golden rule that has ALWAYS applied: A BAND IS ALWAYS AS LOUD AS IT'S DRUMMER...every musician wants to be heard... Once in ears became prevalent the stage "FUN" ended...used to be 10-20 people in the wings on both sides of the stage creating a great party atmosphere...then all of a sudden all they could hear was the drums...goodbye, they all left...🤷♂
Old man here.... Im not giving up my tube amps. A cranked amp is what inspired me to strat playing guitar in the 1sr place. Its not practical...but should music be practical?
@PhilthyCasual There are plenty of working bar and function bands that use amps. But in any situation where volume needs to be heavily controlled, those gigs are going to bands that can adapt their stage volume to be as low as asked. If you're playing in one of those bands, you need to have a silent stage solution or they'll find someone who does.
I played digital for 17 years and bought a tube amp 3 years ago. I do not play live, i enjoy far more having the quality and the presence only a tube amp has.
Watching Dan & Mick was the first time in a while that made me think about an amp set up again because that rig seems genuinely awesome. But then you think about the helix/fractal etc and realise you basically have the Pete Cornish switching system that you always wanted, which was completely unobtainable not so long ago. I don’t think that extra 5% you get from an amp is worth ruining your back and hearing for, and the audience don’t give a rats what you use.
I am a guitar player, I've always played valve amps, I've always been courteous and accommodating regarding stage volume. That said I have atrocious tinnitus, It rings like a bell! Never EVER have I had problems with the stage volume of guitars. The snare drum and cymbals have completely wrecked my hearing
Life became soooo sweet when our drummer switched to an electronic kit! Most folks can't tell the difference, as it's a full size kick and toms. As a guitarist/vocalist and using traditional pedals through an amp modeller (Two Notes Opus) I can now hear myself, and we can adapt our volume to almost any space. Biggest bonus of all - sound checks take 15 minutes - not the 45 mins to an hour we took before, mostly sorting the drums out....AND...my ears don't ring for days after each gig! Now if only we could persuade the bassist......
I still go to gigs regularly where amps are on stage. It's not dying in any way. Sure, you can't bring a plexi and wack it on 10, but a deluxe reverb, or anything that style and wattage on volume 3 sounds glorious anyway ... perfectly loud enough to cut through but not too loud to blow faces off.
I've just played a local festival with a trio for the first time in more years than I care to remember, doing vocals and guitar - rhythm with a few lead lines for luck - and going for an "edge of breakup tone". Thanks to the really helpful sound-tech, I got the best on-stage sound I've ever been lucky enough to work with (light years better than anything I remember back in the '70s!), and people from the audience came up afterwards to praise the guitar sound. What was I using?... I've got a busted foot, so to travel light, I'd left my amp at home and I just took a NUX MG-30. I love playing through a valve amp - I just feel an extra level of "connection", for want of a better term - but I was shocked by how good the the MG-30 sounded and "felt".
Yep I went digital as well. I use my Boss Gt1000 Core for Sunday worship. My worship leader was impressed on how good it sounded through the FOH. Then at home, I play the Boss into frfr. What is nice, even at low volumes your tone still sounds consistent.
With many of the newer amps offering DO and power attenuation, I'm actually seeing more amps on stage. After 50+ years playing, always with an amp behind me, and now working with my church's praise team, I'm most comfortable with that amp close at hand. That allows me to determine my sound rather than someone else.
Its normally the drummers fault. They start off quiet, but by the second set, they've had a couple more beers and start knocking the sh1t out of everything.
I'd love to play at any volume I wish, but that's not reality in most clubs. Mick and Dan will have tinnitus very soon I'm afraid. We've had to switch to smaller amps and getting crunch from pedals where necessary. It's not necessarily preferred, but we can hear each other and the sound man and audience is happy. Even in the studio, if you play live together, you can't always isolate when you really need to hear each other and respond in kind. Your milage may vary.
I think it may be that it's guitars that are almost dead, that is except for guitar players who play in their bedrooms, and maybe 's that's good thing. In fact music as we used to know it is mostly dead for most people. They'd much rather play with their phones. In fact it might actually be that life as we used to know it is dead having been displaced by phones. But if you're a guitarist who likes to play at home, amps can be very cool. Deluxe Reverbs are definitely still cool.
Def played lots of shows in smaller bars and pubs where the only thing going through the pa were vox and maybe a tiny bit of kick drum, and no minitors. The stage volume WAS the volume of the band. If the drummer had gone full tilt, he would have been way too loud. You would just have your buddy stand in the crowd while you jammed and gave you the thumbs up or down to turn your amp up or down to macth the drummers volume lol
I don’t relate to this vs. that. I use whatever the best tool for the job is. That could be a Fender Twin with a Les Paul or a Quad Cortex with an Ibanez AZ2022. I’ve used Kemper, Princeton, H5, Boss Core, Quilter Toneblock, Mesa Lonestar, Fractal AX8, ToneX, Quilter phantom block, Rivera Chubster 40, Blues Jr…I think about the venue, band, genre, instrument, and cartage, then use the rig that suits the situation. For IEM gigs it’s modelers all day. Otherwise it’s an amp of various sizes. It’s really that simple for me: what’s the monitoring situation?
One prominent point from the TPS video is being glossed over. This is not a battle we're going to win overnight; It's the start of turning the tide ... with reasonable solutions like in TPS. There is no question many soundmen/venues will push-back on on-stage amps. We have to push back and be willing to walk away. (Obviously, if you have to work to put food on the table your hands are more tied. And if you prefer in-ears/modelers/silent stages that's fine too). Maybe we win; Maybe we lose. But the TPS video is trying to rally the troops.
We don't use traditional amps in the band I'm in. Both myself (bass) and the guitarist swapped to FRFR speakers and modelling pedalboards. Load-ins and -outs are quick and efficient, with no bad backs or whacked shins from shifting heavy amps, and the stage mix is always spot-on. We played the Busfest VW festival over the weekend and didn't even bother taking our speakers (both Headrush). The sound was excellent and the load-out was a matter of maybe two minutes for me and the guitarist. It's definitely the way forward.
In Texas I haven’t run into any volume issues gigging my Deluxe Reverb with the volume set b/t 4.5 - 6.5 depending on the venue and almost always mic’d. These are night clubs, bars, and multi art venues.
I may have mistaken the TPS point mentioned here, but I thought it was to give the sounds at sound check in such an order that you don't get told to turn down because of perceived loudness in stead of actual loudness.
I bought a Boss TAE and now my little 20w Marshall goes from 0 to 50. Screw 11, 50 is where it's at. It's such a different beast to my Helix, it's a whole quantum leap better to my ears, it feels so much better 'under the fingers'. I can be quiet as a mouse or do structural damage to the local watering hole. I can get all my sounds sorted at home and I don't have to worry about how turning up and down change the break up point. It's so transformational I'm quite emotional.
More amp companies need to incorporate attenuators in their amplifiers (ie Hughes & Kettner) if they want to remain popular. I use Rivera amps, but use an 18 watt H&K tubemeister for occasional small gigs and can take it down to 5 watts if need be for rehearsals and it is still more than loud enough to cope. Spending anything between £400 to £800 on a "name" attenuator (just to drop the dbs)does NOT make good economic sense to me as I'm no longer a pro. So it would be a big plus for those of us who still love our valves, if amp makers could take a leaf out of H&Ks book. There is way too much compromise going on and there needs to be less of it, you can still have a great tone without it being a health risk. "Silent stage" just does nothing for me at all, a soulless and sterile environment when it comes to playing live . . .totally weird ! .
I’m old enough to remember people saying Tube Amps are dead back in the ‘90s when we were using racks… and then the same people said Tube Amps were dead when the first Line 6 Pod was released, and then the first Fractal, and then again when the Kemper was released… and also when we saw Tiny Head amps, everyone said it was the end of larger Tube Amps… and yet Tube amps are well alive and still exist… some evolved in some Hybrid solutions such the GrandMeister Deluxe from H&K, or the Diezel VHX. You can run without cab, with signal sent to FOH and IEM… more and more Amps are including a loadbox now, which solve the problem of being “too loud” on (silent) stage… New amps are also including MIDI Recall to have “Presets” so you can tweak your tone for each song, or even include some post amp effects such Delay, Mod, Reverb, etc… Again, H&K and Diezel do a great job for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if we would see more and more tube amps brands having similar amps in the future to keep their tube amp expertise and real tone with all benefit of digital such cabless mode, control of volume (loadbox), Preset and onboard effects… Digital will always loose value and be obsolete when the “new” version is released, while Tube amps will always age like fine wine and still be used 50 years later no matter what “new” thing could be released by then. That’s why I don’t buy Digital and I invest into real boutique amps such Two-Rock, Dr Z, and my next amp will be the Diezel VHX. They will still work and be used when I will be long gone…
I have been playing over 40 years, and I am a tube amp guy...and I have NEVER bought an amp new. Part of the reason is that on the used market, you can get great amps that have barely been played or need very little work for cheap. An amp at the size that it is becomes a boat anchor to someone who might be moving around. If a person is looking to not play like they once did and go to a modeler at home situation, then the amp is generally first to go. There were times in the past when I sold my amps but kept most my gear (before modelers) only to buy used amps later. Today I buy amps I don't need. My main amp is one I bought back in 1994 (30 years ago) and I still use it today as my main sound.
Another option is using an amp with a reactive load with IR's. I use a Vox AC30 and a Suhr Reactive Load with IR's at church. No stage volume, send the signal from the IR to the board. Have the amp at 50% on the MV and the tone is great. At home, I run Marshalls into the Suhr Reactive Load with IRs and to my ear, it has recorded a better tone than the Helix and Fractal units friends have brought over and we recorded with. If stage volume is the issue, but you want your Plexi tone with your pedal board, the Suhr Reactive Load with IR's allows you to use your amp/rig while having no stage volume. The Suhr 4x12 Greenback IR with a 57 and 121 sounds really close to my Marshall 4x12 1960BX with Greenbacks.
I live on the east coast of America and my band has gone through some major changes over the last couple years. We were a 5 piece band with 3 guitar players. The loud guy got kicked out. But the big thing for us was the drummer sets the volume. Knowing this we have always been a loud rock band. Last year we decided to make the conscious decision to get direct in tones and the drummer is now using an electric drum kit. I use a Boss Katana 100 MKII now for over a year vs my Vox ac30 that couldn’t get to the right volume to sound right. Now our band gets nearly double the gigs we were getting because we understand we are just background noise to one’s night out. We’re a cover band and we get that people still wanna hear the band, but they also wanna hear their conversation to the person next to them. So we are all direct in and are now a three piece. Some places I turn the speaker off completely and only do direct in.
My current band runs ampless. I use a Boss ME90, our other guitar uses a line 6 modeler, and the bassist had a modeler as well. We all got some good IRs and spent the money we would have used on amps on better guitars. The band runs thru our own PA and we control the mix with an Ipad. Keep it simple.
@@kencubala9560 I got one for that reason. I find the ME90 is way easier to adjust sound live on the fly then my previous touchscreen modeler. The default amps arent too bad, but you can also load IRs which is way better. Sound quality wise its also great. I own a Marshall DSL 20. But I dont use it for gigs. I did for a few months until I got the ME90 dialed in really close to the amp. My bandmates could not tell the difference. Thats when I went ampless.
@@matttactics8275 Thank you for the response and descriptions. Glad you are enjoying your setup. Have been using an old line 6 flextone II which really sounds and feels good, but would like to use outboard effects instead of all the multifunction switches and knobs on the amp.
If you control your own mix OR you are playing in a professional venue with actual sound engineers mixing your FOH, then I can see playing without amps, although I’ve never done it. But the reason that those Pedal Show guys are giving the advice of not giving these “sound guys” your loudest sound isn’t so that you can play too loud and drive the customers away. It’s because for the most part, these “sound guys” in bars and clubs DON’T KNOW HOW TO MIX SOUND! That’s the truth of the matter. It’s a flat-out vote of no confidence, where you’re saying to yourself, “Even if I’m not standing in the best place to judge the FOH mix, I‘ll still probably do a better job with my own sound than relying on these “sound guys.’
You can use a plexiglass perspex screen around the drums. Cuts down volume and still allows them to play at normal power. Most of the bars in Nashville use baffles around the guitar amps.
Whenever I do weddings nowadays it's pretty much a silent stage. One of the bands i work with has a venue residency based on how quiet they are. Electronic drum kits are becoming more and more popular/necessary and either an oxbox or a Helix seem to be the only options. In pubs on the other hand, I still use a 30 watt head and a 1x12 and it sounds ace. A lot of times I don't even mic up the speaker. Not having a separate sound man means everyone is responsible for their own volumes. This can be both a blessing and a curse.
I have a Fender Princeton Reverb, a Kemper Stage Profiler (set up for wireless and IEM) and a 4U rack containing a Mesa Triaxis, Lexicon MPXG2 and 2020 power amp. The Kemper will NEVER replace the Triaxis for feel and dynamics even though I've found some of the profiles of other preamps I have sound better than the real thing. There's also the influence of feedback on sustain and note bloom. The PR runs with the volume on 9 but the master is around 3 just to catch some of that touch sensitivity at low volumes and it blooms wonderfully if an eq is tweaked for the resonance peaks of the amp. All of the onstage volumes in bands I've played in have been set by the volume of the drummer and, particularly, the impact of cymbals on other instruments. In fact, I even left a band once because the drummer wouldn't reign his volume in. This was even after it was proven in one rehearsal how tighter the band was as a result of everyone being able to hear each other better.
I've done some time running front of house sound for various set ups as well as doing a fair bit of gigging with both live amps and modellers and I'mma just say this debate is usually fueled more by ignorance than anything else. I can absolutely mix with/around amps, but a lot of the "too loud" conversation comes from a loudness arms race. Unless you have a slant cab then your amp is pointed at your ankles and you don't hear it as well as others in the room, so now lets say there's 2 guitarists who both have amps who keep turning themselves up because "I can't hear myself", soon it turns into noisy unmixable slop. Another source of awful loudness issues is the monitor wedge. I've played with someone who had a 100w marshall with a slant cab and STILL asked for his amp in his own wedge. Without even getting into the phasing you're causing yourself, if you have all that AND you're cranking everyone else in the wedge AND you keep asking for more vocals the entire thing is going to just turn into a feedback mess. Rule of thumb, never put your own amp or any drums in the monitor, and put effort into trying to have as quiet of wedge mix as possible. you actually hear better at lower SPLs anyway so you'll play better AND have more separation between instruments if you get comfortable at lower volumes on stage. gear guidelines: if you're playing a house show or small bar then you want a proper amp but keep the wattage under control. Use an amp stand to help you hear yourself better. If you're playing a larger bar or a club with decent wedges then you can either go with amps or modellers but plan on also having either a hybrid set up or an FRFR cab if you're going modeller. If you're playing a "pro" gig (large tours, churches, house bands, weddings) then you should have both solutions available and discuss with the venue which is better for a given gig. Any time you're using IEMs then modellers are better. Also remember that most sound engineers are over worked and under paid, if you put a little effort into making their job easier that leaves more time for them to focus on making you sound good. So even if they're being a goober, just try and work together because anyone who works that job is passionate about musing and making bands sound good.
Even though I've used a modeller exclusively since around 2008, I still use a power amp to a trad cab on stage, not only as a bit of personal monitoring, but also to get the cab's speakers 'talking' to the guitar's pickups is pretty important. I don't have it that loud, but just enough to get that natural feedback going. The seperate (direct FRFR) signal to the PA is totally controllable out front, so what I'm doing on stage is to get the right sound and still minimise excessive stage volume. As usual, especially in UK venues, they tend to have restrictions on level in place, so a bit of compromise is required on that.
Watched that episode. Agree on DR for tone. Love my 76 but it stays home. Got a TMDR and use it live. Feed the house with the IR and attenuate the output per the situation or go silent. Here in Nash, the Princeton has been taking over for some time and even those 12 watts are too much for some gigs. Mike Campbell used 2 Princetons to tour the world. I can see even 5 watt amps getting more popular for live work.
If you want to be a working guitarist, you have to do what the people employing you say. Unless you just record music in a studio and sell it, that is. I gigged with a function band recently, and they had no silent stage equipment. It was probably the loudest gig I've ever played, apart from maybe outdoor gigs where an external company supplied a huge PA system. Certainly the loudest stage volume. Still got paid. Judging by the amount of equipment now available for silent stage guitarists, there's a market for it, and so there must be demand.
I agree with them. It’s another undermining situation just like the situation around financial compensation. If a 15watt tube amp is too much, it’s not a gig I want. If it’s not a team working towards a good mix, it’s not a gig I want. If I can’t use an appropriate amp and stage volume for a situation I won’t be playing. If I use a modeller, it’ll be my choice. There is a minimum amount of fun I will settle for. Inaudibility on stage (or out front) is below that threshold. I gave up trusting unknown sound guys a long time ago. What is the point of playing my ass off dynamically and being seen but not heard? That’s not being a musician, that’s being a manikin. I’m very concerned about being too loud, but at the same time if I’m playing into the void, I can do that on the couch. If I trust the guy, I’m fine with giving him control. I AM ALSO A SOUND GUY. The guitar sound guy.
Throughout the years and because of sound decibel regulations here in Los Angeles clubs I have had to tone down my backline volume to the point that I now use, full time, a Kemper rig. I have my Powered Kemper modded to stereo and use two Kemper 1x12 Kabs in stereo behind me, but almost just for presence, and I now send my master outs to the board. In the old days at clubs like the Whiskey, Troubadour, Roxy, etc., I could bring my big Marshall 100w full or half stacks, crank them up and play as loud as I wanted. I am referring to the late 70's and 80's and 90;'s. Back them, there were no regulations and no limitations. I used 2 Metaltronics modded Marshall JMP heads and 4 4x12 cabinets. Those days are long, long in the past. I'm glad that I'm old now (64) because I don't want to play in a club with, instead of 2 bands in one night there at 5-7 bands and all have a 30 minute time slot and have to use the same drums and amps with few exceptions. No thanks. I do more fun small gigs today and jams. The Kemper serves me well and sounds and, most importantly, feels fantastic. In fact, another comment made here below hits the nail on the head. Even with a great tube amp of which I own more than I want to count, you can't turn them up loud enough to make the tubes sing and get the tone, cadence and feel. Kemper, Axe-Fx III.and Quad Cortex are the amps of the future, even in large venues. They get neat perfect tone and close to perfect feel at any volume and with either FRFR cabs or in ear and going to the board they do the job. Plus, it is a 10th of the weight of lugging around massive amps and cabs. Great video! 🎸
I agree that the best is to have an amp on stage. I definitely think that amp sales is taking a knock due to modellers. I use modelling extensively but I recommend using your own “powered speaker” for your own reference and could give the traditional amp “feeling” and “feedback”. There are various options. The benefit is that you don’t need to drive your “reference system” so loud to get the original sound of a driven amp - you get that set up in your modeller. So, you can manage the on-stage volume a little better. Further, at the end of the day, protecting your ears is actually the most important.
I regularly gig my 1961 Blonde Bassman on 6. I have different cabs for different venues, I turn the cab away from the audience to the back wall, and I have an attenuator just in case I need to bring it down. There are plenty of ways to manage volume and still retain your tone from a valve amp. And, like Dan said, most important thing about band gig volume is the drummer and if youre able to hear the vocals clearly
Eugh, I was interested at first but trying to get through all this I just realized...everyone now just massively overthinks absolutely everything and it's driving all of us totally nuts and gradually sapping all of the life and soul from society. In it's place we just get completely corporatized superficiality and total oversaturation of everything. Since when did any of this suddenly become a "problem"? People have used amps for every kind of gig for decades and had a great time...suddenly now we have abundant software and endless digital bollox, it's now a problem? Why? You have a master volume...turn it down a bit and crack on having a blast in life. Or just use some digital setup if that's what you have to or is what you prefer...but why are we making it a "problem"? Why the heated debate as if to divide everyone into a purely tribal one or the other mindset? Amps are suddenly either totally pointless or you're some sort of grandpa who doesn't "get it"? No, amps are great, digital can also be great. They're tools that ARE different, especially live, and each have their own merits. Trying to endlessly overanalyse absolutely every last detail of everything down to precisely what dB a wedding function needs to have the band at is justmental.
Reading all the comments, i just feel bad for you guys. Where i'm from, you can bring any amp you want and nobody says anything about volume, and the venues that has it's own backline, uses 2 100w heads with 2 4x12 cabs for guitars, and a 300w head and a 4x10 cab for bass. I get why you love digital so much lol
A PR, covered with a baffle of some sort, turned to about 4 with pedals, and your own monitor for your guitar. That's the way to go. I can't tell hiw many guitarists that have seen my setup are emulating it.
I quite like a silent stage. The benefits in mix quality for the people in the crowd far outweighs the negligible differences in tone (again to the average listener) as long as you FEEL good playing your guitar, what does it actually matter what the amp is?
For the past 12 years I’ve been using my Two Rock combo in a function/wedding band with a 2nd guitarist through his Mark 5 Mesa amp, bassist through a Markbass combo. Also real drums, keys and 4 vocals. In the last 12 years I’ve never once had to play at low volume, been told to turn down or triggered a limiter. Consequently, I’d never go the modelling route.
Wow. That is clean and overdriven, sustaining. Just enough compression. Nice. I play very low vol almost all the time. There are sounds you can only get with the amp turned up a bit. You can fake it somewhat. It makes me cry a little bit. I remember playing gigs with my amp cooking a bit and it's a whole different thing. One approach is smaller amps. Rock on everybody and do what you have to to keep working.
Even with in-ears, I prefer to use an amp on stage. My solution: bought 2 laney Cub 10 (they were cheap and I can play in stereo). They are the 1st version, with just gain, tone and volume. They sound big when mic'ed. And they sound great doesn't matter if you are only driving the preamp or the power section or both. And together they weight the same as a Blues Junior.
I have a hybrid approach. I use a Friedman IR-X, going into an OX Stomp to go direct to FOH, but I also have a separate non cab-simulated line going into my Powerstage 700 and V30 loaded 112 cab for stage volume. And I'm a full-time professional performing and recording session guitarist.
After decades of humping my marshall valve combos around i discovered that my cheap pa speakers along with a 50-50 prosound power amp, a decent Yamaha mixer and pedal board gave me and my Les Paul deluxes a great sound without having to hire heavy lifting companies to move fender twins,ac30s, and marshall combos around, yes those amps gave a good sound in the right venue BUT, they were only ONE sound.
I’m a pro sax player who gigs the London wedding and function scene regularly. Unfortunately I’ve developed a hearing condition called hyperacusis due to loud stage volumes and drummers not being aware of dynamics. I’ve only been gigging for 4 years (graduated from Berklee in 2019) but I so wish there was an option to get the tone we all desire yet play quieter. I often come home from work with ear pain even after wearing ear plugs on stage.
I'm in Brisbane Australia. Prior to Covid I did an average 4 gigs a week pubs and clubs, functions etc since 1996. Over that time it went from it being a free-for-all in terms of equipment and volumes bands played at (leaving aside complaints or requests to turn down) to now being generally a totally controlled environment in many venues. Controlled PA systems, db meters that will cut the power etc. We were even forced to do a gig at one venue that restricted us to 75db. Needless to say we had to unplug and play totally acoustic and scale down to one powered speaker for the PA. That was an extreme case. But what I wanted to mention was, this of course is not the ideal in terms of a musicians performance. All dynamics are lost, spontaneity, interaction, the free flow of musical ideas are all restricted as one constantly aims to not cut the power off rather than aim to engage with the audience. This is what is lost and not often talked about in this equation is, these are not good gigs for the audience. Unless you're someone who hated anything above background noise (like my father) you won't be happy or interacting at a gig like this. Most gigs around pubs in our area now are soloists meandering away in a corner somewhere doing covers in the most uninteresting fashion, totally void of anything that might interest a music lover or excite any passer by to stop, listen or spend money on a few drinks even. Not to mention the long lost opportunity for anyone to dance and under the cover of a darkened dance floor and all engulfing audio to drown out discomfort. It unfortunately is the current reality and has killed live music. It's not just that the amp is generally no longer needed, it's the restricted PA systems, totally killing any vibe, which is bad for musicians and the audiences.
Ive been lucky enough to play my Deluxe on vol 8-10. I learned from Pete Thorn when the sound guy asks you for guitar, turn down a lot then Live, match ur volume with the band and use the rest of the volume as a place to go and for solo volumes.
To me the game changer is In Ear Monitors. My band is moving full IEM (for tons of reasons) and I really appreciate my own mix to be decoupled from others', and the whole thing be decoupled from PA. Is it "less fun"? Maybe (I lost the sustain/feedback thing), but I can now ear every little detail in what I'm playing, everywhere, throughout the whole set, and I no longer have to worry about balancing volumes in the amp + SM57 + FRFR / PA levels. SUCH A RELIEF!
The tide is turning, silent stages and modelers are a phase. Hold the line my tone brothers and buy big amps while demand is low. I got a 1970 Super Reverb for $1000 and use it on wedding gigs, the band loves my sound and it really isn’t too loud for catering halls, it was seemingly designed precisely for those venues and bands w/ horns and keys and loud drums etc. (I often get it up to 5-7 vol no problem.)
I agree with you, you need to be able to play silent stage or with amps. I fought using a modeler at church until they told me the amp had to go backstage. I wasn't going to carry an amp and pedalboard for 4 or 5 songs if the amp was backstage. I made the leap to Helix and it is very convenient and gets me 85% of the amp experience and everybody is happy. For home and other gigs, it's amps all the way!
I always give the sound person my max volume. I roll down the volume on my guitar and roll up for solos when we start our set. But has the night progresses, I start to edge my volume up slightly. But yeah it's a battle for a guitarist in modern times using tube amps. But you have to control your volume. Not many people at a bar or any live venue want to hear a screaming guitar all night. Rolling up and down on the guitar volume is a great way to control it.
Appreciate the reality check. Love TPS but those guys get to play in a different venue-universe than most local working guitarists I know. Play amps loud locally you starve.
Barefaced speaker cabinets spread the audio around. Which might allow you to lower your volume in some situations. Deeflexx shields can be put in front of speakers and they spread the sound around the stage. Which would allow you to be heard all over and stop the direct front of speaker from being too loud. The Deeflexx costs 75% of a Barefaced 12" speaker cabinet.
I'm playing a Marshall JVM 410 with a Deflexx (to avoid the speaker beam) in front of my Bogner 2x12 cabinet. My amp can be too loud - for sure ... but in reality I never play too loud. The interaction between my mastervolume and presence- and resonance- controls is good. So I need no power soak to save the tone.. In the last years I watched too many guitar slingers playing over low - watt amps, which get lost in the mix- caused by the overcompression of their amps , used at its absolute volume limit. So I'm happy with my equipment choice.
I gig a fair bit and I think a lot of venues need to accept that if they need to keep asking a band to turn down then they are an acoustic venue. Im talking reasonable levels, not Motorhead loud, ultimately a band, particularly a rock band is loud. We use IEMs but I still like an amp on stage. It adds a level of immersion when the vocal and drum mics are all getting a bit of bleed.
Amp stand and hot plate attenuator for me - often with amp to one side pointing at me/cross-stage (fold back) with FOH handled by engineer. Biggest barrier to silent stage for me locally here in the US, is that in ear feeds aren’t always available and in ear mix functionality even more rare.
I agree with them. If an amp like a Deluxe is too much it’s not much of a gig. I use amps of similar wattage, Marshall 2061, 20 watt JCM800/SC20 . They are just right. There are still plenty of gigs like biker rally’s where I can use my bluesbreaker or 2204
Just my 2 cents. I play guitar and bass in our dad rock covers band, swapping over between sets. Play mainly pubs and small events, we went silent stage about 12 months ago and can’t recommend it enough. Drummer has an electronic kit and we have our own PA and run sound ourselves. I’m 55 and have been playing for years through valve amps with acoustic kits but if you can make the transition from Amps on stage to in ears, life is so much easier. Turning the whole band down FOH with one knob is a gift, no more crazy feedback issues and setup and break down is a breeze. Every player will tell you there’s nothing like getting your trousers flapping from your 4x12 but the realities of modern day small scale gigging, is keeping everybody sweet, punters, pub managers and the like. Technology has advanced to a point now where the average Joe is not gonna now what your playing through. Worth considering entering the world of modelling technology if you want repeat gigs, ( and you’re not shit) 😂
Well. I HOPE amps don't sell anymore so that I can afford to buy a couple that I have always wanted. Pros and Cons related to smaller stage amps ... Better for your back, better for your hearing. If you have a drummer that fits in with a 22 watt amp, great. Most of my 40 years of weekend stage playing was through a 40 watt 1964 Super Reverb which I bought brand new. Still have it. But let me tell you ... If you want a crowd to get up and get on their dancing feet, hire a drummer that can destroy a bass drum and a snare head. But be prepared to carry in an SR or a Bandmaster at the least, and move some air. I would rather do that than depend on some guy mixing the sound that has never heard my band. But what do I know about today's groups? DO they still carry around their own PA system? Do they pay a live sound engineer who knows their material and is the most important person in their band? And those amps I would like to own, are a BF Deluxe Amp and an old type "A" brownface Concert. NOW we are talking sweet tones.
I love a huge guitar sound. Ramones, Sex Pistols, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc. Not difficult to achieve. Don’t need loud stage volume. A nice professional sound system helps a great deal.
I think the words we need to start thinking about is 'amp projection' versus 'stage volume.' I used stage shields back 10 (who am I kidding more like 15) years ago when we were still expected to bring a half stack and never had complaints. I went away from them with smaller amps but recently went back. This moves the 'loudness' back with the drummer so you can hear it when you pull back to your jam zone with the drummer, but it does not project out to the crowd and more importantly the sound person. These amps were designed to push out to the crowd when bad PA systems were the norm. We don't need that projection anymore, but we sure love that tonal goodness. Final thoughts, I do think to stay busy even here in the States you have to be conscious of sound and so learning and implementing a hybrid setup has been great move for me personally. If I'm at a good stage where I can rock, I mic and primarily push my amp on stage, terrible sound room and stage I give them just my Quad Cortex signal amp and pull down my stage amp with a shield so I can still enjoy what I like to hear while accommodating the venue.
I have a Fender DeVille 2x12 and a Fender Super Sonic. I use a JHS power soak running into the preamp in / power amp out to control the volume. Almost everywhere we play I can get useable volumes with tone... Its the new music conditions setting the volumes too as well as being near residential areas. One place that had music for decades stopped because of complaints and most of those were towards the end of bands and I think it was the bands bringing in the new public address systems with wave technology as that causes the sound to stay nice and level but it throws the sound at that level way further than the old school systems did. That happened to me in my apartment when I bought a Fender Mustang digital amp and I had a pitchfork uprising on my hands although the volume was much lower that when I ran through my 22watt Fender Deluxe .... I am glad I am old and won't have to put up with the new trends for much longer.... People in their late 30's to their 80's love our band as we keep hearing that we are the best band they've heard in our area in decades.... I may eventually try one of the new Fender digital amps made to be like the Twin Reverb and I think a Princeton...
I have a Fender ProJnr 15w amp. I've rehoused it in a custom-made 210 tweed-lined cab, and I also carry around a Bugera Powersoak inside the back. I've gigged on some pretty big stages with that, and I get a mixed experience. At times the sound engineer has told me to turn up, and at times he's told me to turn down, but either way, the amp runs at around 5-6 on the volume knob, just at the point where the amp is about to break up. At all times the amp has been mic'd up, and next to the drummer (acoustic drums). At times I run with the powersoak, and at times I dont. Seems like the most flexible arrangement to me
We really need to start seeing the conversation go toward modelers into general purpose amps that provide no character. I was playing guitar pedals into keyboard amps back in the 90's and it worked great. You set the volume for the stage environment and you have no need to drive the amp hard to get your tone.
If it's good enough for Joe Bonamassa - might be worth trying? thmn.to/thoprod/289653?offid=1&affid=3252
I know a couple local guys using them. Also know some guys who turn their amps, to the Wall, so sound comes out the back only. I used to use a twin Reverb in the 70's live, but we were not a loud band at all, we could not be having practiced in neighborhoods, and small rooms.
Like the other comment it did also make me think of the late, great Jeff Beck and his "trick" of pointing his Marshall 4x12's and his Pro Juniors backwards so as not to "kill" everyone else in the band and first few rows!
Myself I don't do many gigs these days (mostly acoustic anyway) but the last few amped up gigs I've used my Blonde Tone Master Deluxe Reverb with the "attenuator" aka "master volume" set according to the venue or setting. I've still never used it on full power yet but its done the job perfectly every time.
We are not joe Bonamassa. Unless our show is "I'm the guitarist look at me" is type of volumes is just ridiculous for any stock corporate gig
@@jp7963Philip sayce actually does this in clubs also. Cabs backwards or to the side. It's fairly common actually
@@swardmusic I'm not familiar with Philip or his music so I shall check him out. Thanks for the suggestion!
We do need to stop being so meek and accept having to compromise and compromise and compromise and turn down, turn down, turn down. There is a reasonable compromise that can be made, but when electric guitarists are talking about “maybe we shouldn’t play through amps at all” then that should be a clear indication that we have compromised too far.
A guitar amplifier turned up loud enough that the guitarist can hear themselves onstage and play with some dynamic range is NOT too loud, I don’t give a damn what anyone says. If everyone is always telling you to turn down when you’re playing through a Deluxe Reverb on 4, the problem isn’t that your amp is turned up too loud, the problem is that you need to play better. That’s gonna ruffle some feathers, but it’s true. The answer is to play with more sensitivity and dynamics, not to turn the amp down, killing your dynamic range and actually just making everything sound worse.
The problem is that just because amplifiers CAN be turned down to nothing, the expectation is that they SHOULD. Sound engineers accept that a drumset is going to be, to a certain extent, naturally loud. So they mix the sound with that in mind. Guitarists simply aren’t given that same grace. They’re told to relinquish all the volume to the PA system, rather than fostering an environment where the sound from the PA and the sound from/on the stage are balanced and in harmony and everyone’s happy.
RE: “Well, good luck not getting any gigs/not getting paid”…hey man, I get that. You gotta put food on the table. And sometimes getting paid is clearly so much more important than getting that sweet ToAn.
But let’s be honest, is it even effing worth it any more? Bands are still getting paid what they were getting paid in 1990, and we can’t even play as loud as they could or have as much fun as they could. I hate to say it, but if making a living is your concern, you might want to consider getting a job at the post office or something. Slogging through a bunch of songs you don’t even like at uninspiring volumes for poverty money…worth it? Up to you, I guess.
Guitarists have compromised and accepted certain “realities” for a LONG time now. We’ve been VERY patient, but it’s time to start asserting certain other things that venue owners and sound workers need to accept:
1. A live band is not a jukebox. There isn’t a simple master volume knob you can turn up or down. They are playing live instruments and in order for them to hear themselves and one another well enough to play the show, there is a certain volume ceiling that is non-negotiable. If that volume floor is too loud for you, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
2. A live band consists of people. People who have bills to pay and who have worked very hard for many years to be able to perform music to a professional standard for your enjoyment. It is, in many senses, skilled labor. PAY THEM. It doesn’t need to be an exorbitant sum, but the same dollar amount as 30 years ago is obviously not enough any more. If you can’t afford to pay the band, don’t hire a band. Simple as.
Before anyone comes at me in the comments with some crap about “you’re inexperienced, once you get a few gigs under your belt you’ll understand how the real world works blah blah”, no. I’m 36 years old and have put THOUSANDS of gigs under my belt over the past 20 years. I’m well aware of how “the real world works” re: the sad trend towards silent stages, and I’m sick of it. Especially for how little we get paid, I’m done compromising. It’s time to fight back.
Agree with everything you wrote. And no, at that point it's not worth it anymore.
I am 100% in agreement with this entire comment.
@@johnballantyne3458 It's a long way to the top if you wanna rock n' roll........anyone else besides me remember "if it's too loud.....you're too old"?
I dunno man. I know I'm outside looking in. I'm a classical tuba player, and there's a lot of chameleon work playing with different groups. The second I say, "screw you I do this the way I want" is the day I never get called for the gig again. This is coming from a tuba player that has looked at bringing instruments other than tuba (like bass trombone, but then I realised that would be another $7000 expense for me) to a gig to better suit the environment. I have played guitar for 20 years, but I don't gig it, so I may be out of step here.
John's next headline: "Guitar amps are Back!"
"We need to talk about proper amps "
@ukguitarnoodle aww you bet me to it
Hahahahahahahha😂😂😂
I’m actually gonna steal that title for my next video now.😂😂
Right? LOL!!! That’s a load of wasted bandwidth!
Drummer weighing in -- there's no reason that a drummer shouldn't also be prepared for various volume situations like a guitarist. At the very least, plenty of sound deadening gels should always be on hand. If you're serious, have multiple drumsets and cymbal set ups for various volume requirements. My "quiet" acoustic set up included cheap Sabian B8 cymbals. They weren't the coolest looking piece of gear, but I could fully open them up rather than guys with nice cymbals that could barely hit them hard enough to get a full sound and keep quiet. Also, electronic drums exist.
We did a filming session earlier in the year where the drummer had some of those quiet like stunt cymbals that actually sounded pretty good (relatively) and might be useful for those dreaded limiter gigs?
And on the eKit thing - we had one venue this year where it was line array and eKit (mandatory) - it actually wasn't as bad as I was expecting...
Drummers can use those light balsa sticks too for less volume
@@pardeeplace4480 Ha! Typical guitarist solution. Might as well get a cajon.
With all the plugins available for drummers, Ekit should be in their arsenal depends on the venue
There are a few venues in town that really like one of my bands mostly because our drummer has an e-kit.
Amps will never be dead, never.
The 2020s is the Era of the Pansy..."tube amps are loud and heavy, so I'll pretend digital sounds just as good"...remember going to shows and feeling a natural high for the rest of the night from the sound waves beating on you for a few hours?
@@jasondorsey7110 totally 💯
@@jasondorsey7110 I got rid of my valve amps as they weighed 60lb plus apart from the tiny Electar I wish I'd kept. But back then, 5W was considered insufficient to gig with. Had I kept the Electar I'd have got it modified to add a loop to add reverb, though, somehow. And swap out the tiny speaker.
@@jasondorsey7110 there's something to be said for the power you feel when it's loud and the apparent interaction between the field of sound around you and the strings, which seem to come alive. I know it's subjective, but if it's quiet the strings feel stiffer. From a sound engineer's perspective, I can see the benefit of a quiet stage, though. And for the hearing of anyone on stage unless everyone wears earplugs.
I have an IEM system I've never used as I worry that I might get screaming feedback from a microphone fed directly into my brain, although with the more common use of feedback suppressors and quiet stages that's now relatively uncommon. It used to be every gig when the singer carelessly pointed a microphone at a monitor while the drummer was making some sort of random adjustment to the kit.
I remember when it was about tone , not gimmicks and gizmos.. so pathetic.
I bet this dude eats vegetarian hamburgers too,
Unsubscribed.....
Amps are dead. I agree completely. Send me those old Fender boat anchors so you don't have to store them.
I think that there is a special relationship and sound between a real guitar amp and acoustic drums on stage that just can’t be beat. Especially with loud drumming. But also with a light and dynamic drummer. I always base my sound and volume on the drums first and then the full band mix. Cymbals and guitar amp blend is important I believe.
Well. But it might be tiring for those who play keys, flute, saxophone, violin etc. Modern quiet stage is superior for a reason.
@@lalnuntluangachhakchhuak5767For some things maybe but not for balls out authentic Rock, Blues, Fusion, Gospel or Metal.
Amps are not dead - they are like vinyl. Long live analog sound.
A good time to point out that almost all vinyl being made these days is from a digital source.
And they sound better than they ever did 😂😂😂 @@trev3971
@@JohnWiku I'd argue with that. A lot of WEA catalog stuff from the '70s-80s has been reissued in the past ten years and you'd be hard pressed to find any new masters that sound better than the originals. OTOH, all of the stereo Beatles stuff they've done since '09 sounds great. It's a case-by-case basis.
So it's for obnoxious corksniffers? Reality most of these guys complaining about amps can't play for shit and have no ear. Rhett Shull gear head types.
@@trev3971Most of the vinyl 'out there' in circulation was probably made pre-1990.
No. The music industry is dying, if not dead. This amp issue is simply a side effect of a much larger problem.
Yup, I see loads of great bands that dont have and will never get a deal... 30 years ago they'd have gotten deals and publicity.
No, tastes are just changing. Guitar driven blues rock isn't the dominant force now that it has been for decades.
This is why we've moved to 100% digital with digital drums and In Ear Monitors. We play weddings, wineries, breweries, and private parties. We can adjust our sound to any level needed for the venue. We even needed to play inside a host's living room when it rained at their private party. With the IEMs, I can play as loud as I find comfortable. It's not as fun a playing with an amp but we are getting to play and the venues like us because we aren't driving away their customers.
That is the DREAM setup. I'm in a band with four dinosaurs 🙁
@@MotownGuitarJoe Dinosaurs tend to go instinct.
@@MotownGuitarJoeYou are in a band of real man
@@W1LLi4m_… Not before they crush them some Millennials and GenZ under the footprint of their giant Marshalls 😮
@@MotownGuitarJoe Our band leader is very progressive and was still on the fence. Our drummer and other guitar player wanted no part of it. But, we'd had several gigs where our stage volume made a mess and everyone (except me who was already using IEMs) struggled with the gig. I was the only one on IEMs and the others tried them and were sold. They were kicking themselves about why we waited so long. The drummer was using a cheap digital kit in our rehearsal space but after months of seeing that they just worked better bought a nice digital kit and he's in love.
Deluxe reverb combos used to be home practice amps.. lol
Lol!!! Neighbor love it
What homes are these people living in?
These amps still sound great at lower volumes… unless you’re in an apartment then it doesn’t matter anyways. Plus attenuators work wonders
Still is 😂
back when houses were affordable for the average household. the good ol' times before the leading generation screwed the economy
Been a pro muso for 50 years. Things change and you adapt and move on. Gone from bands with a Marshall 100w top and 2 4x12's in a tiny pub to Pod pedal and Bose L1 and everything in between. You will find a workaround that fits you.
Anyone that wants to play loud should stay in their bedroom and save themselves and others from their talent.
Talent will always win through!
I'm 70. Still play 4 times a week. Done 7000 gigs in my lifetime. I always use tube amps, tried all the modelers. Modelers are OK for people who do small gigs, but they do not sound or more importantly, react like tube amps, and when you're touring, or big clubs, amps are king. If I do a small gig, I use a PR, if it's bigger, my DR or silverface bassman. And I do not up the amp super loud, I cover it, and if I need it loud, I turn up my stage monitor. The key is to cover it, usually with a v shaped sound absorber of some sort, you can make your own.
Tons of high level touring acts (like stadium level) have gone all digital. To 99% of the audience it's indistinguishable.
Excellent points John. I would only add that we should also consider protecting our hearing. Pointing a guitar amp directly at your head is going to put a lot of harmful high-end right at your ears. Another point might be to try to play more musically, to think about the overall band sound and how each member is contributing to dynamics, the groove, harmonic complexity, etc. I watched Trapp, Bukovac's show last night. They had a drummer, lots of amps on the stage and a Hammond and Leslie. I don't know how loud it was in the room (I bought the livestream), but it didn't feel loud and they played with a lot of dynamics.
Hence why I use a screen
@@jimamsden high end is more annoying when loud, but does not really destroy your hearing more than low end or even sub. On the contrary probably.
I am a gigging guitarist and play 99% of jobs with a real tube amp. I know how to use it though. Adjust your tone and the volume level to the venue and band and when it sits in the mix right, no one will complain. I do silent stage gigs too, but an amp is always better - sounds better, feels better, sits better in the mix. Just learn to use it!
I would be tempted to agree with the concept… except that DJs and bands today are routinely far louder than the wedding/clubdate bands I worked with back in the 1980s. I am all for the customer dictating volume level; I am NOT for the sound engineer doing the same. But far too many sound engineers today demand the band play quietly - then they turn up FOH to earbleed level.
And once that occurs, the IEMs also have to be cranked. If you think loud amps and stage monitors damaged your hearing, wait til a few years of cranked IEMs have done their damage. Ambient loud is one thing; direct-injected loud is something else entirely.
Yeah I thought that comment from Mick was a bit odd imo (I say that respectively) as some gig have to be silent stages. I’m currently doing the show We Will Rock You. I’m literally playing solos in every tune. There are 40 headset microphones on stage, so a modeller is the only option. Literally. So I’m using an FM3 & pedals. It sounds killer. Just reality if you want to do theatre show gigs. I love playing loud but sometimes you just can’t
I agree. I play pit band gigs a lot, use a Helix floor, and we’re all on headphones. Sometimes the drums are acoustic, but sometimes they’re a electronic kit. It honestly sounds better than when I used to use amp / pedals, even though it was an amp with excellent master volume (Fuchs ODS).
Yeah this is so true, I would say 95% of all theatre gigs are direct and even on some function gigs I’ve been asked to not bring an amp. I’m not sure if it’s sometimes because of negative stereotype of guitarists being ‘too loud’ or wanting more control over sound. I totally agree with John in this video that the reality is people have to adapt to work as a guitarist. Personally, I would much prefer to go direct and have a pay cheque than forcibly play a loud amp for the sake of being a ‘guitarist’ whatever that means.
As well the thing that no-one seems to mention is that going direct means a more consistent sound, you can actually hear what you sound like through IEMs and this can inform your practice as a guitarist, meaning better technique and rehearsed parts. It’s part and parcel now of being a working guitarist that you have to adapt too.
When your entire career is built around saying the only acceptable way to play guitar is through machines that only sound good at high volumes, you are sort of stuck fighting everyone all the time to demand the right to play at high volumes.
@@Newnodrogbob yeah that’s a relevant point for sure
From what I can tell having seen a number of West End shows with real bands no guitarist was using an amp nowadays.
Here's couple of tips for bands that don't use IEM's and only use wedges and real amps/cabs on stage. Set the overall volume to acoustic drums so that guitars and bass are loud enough to be heard over drums. That's about it, no need to be louder than that. Get a good balance between drums, guitars, bass, vocals etc. BEFORE you even go on the stage. Set the cabs to side of the stage, pointing to the band, so they act as monitors for guitars and then there's no need to put them on the wedges so much. That way you can have lead/backing vocals much louder on monitors. Also use supercardioid mics for vocals so there's no bleed from guitars and drums. I've never had any problems and not even once had to turn my amp down to almost zero by sound guys. I use a 100w/50w tube amp with GOOD master volume and depending on the size of the venue and the stage I bring either 4x12 or 2x12 cab. MOST of the time 2x12 is way to go. If I do small duo gig I bring my 20w 1x10 combo. I nowadays use Bluguitar blubox so my FOH sound comes from that, which sounds absolutely killer, and I could totally go direct/silent stage with this rig, but In my opinion bands sound better when you have real cabs on stage versus everything going direct. Guitars especially get buried in the mix very easily and overall sound of the band is muddy. Now on a huge festival stage that doesn't matter cause you won't be hearing the cab anyway, but smaller clubs. Totally different story. Even more when the PA is shit. So it's all about balance and and drummers knowing how to play to a room. Now if you 're playing with a click track/backing tracks forget everything I said and go direct.
@PhilthyCasual Sure! Seen it many times. But you shouldn't need to adjust amps. Soundguy can do it for you and put you more on monitors. :)
This is a cold, hard, fact. During sound check, a timid drummer is going to affect the mix. They need to play at the highest “normal” gig volume during sound check.
I hate having to constantly adjust my amp volume because the drummer is now teeing off. Acoustic drums and cymbal frequencies are the template for everything else. That being said, guitarists can help their place in the mix by adding in some midrange. I’m not talking quacky midrange, but too much scoop won’t cut through and you’ll have all kinds of frequency cancellation. Each instrument/player needs to understand how to fit their sonic profile into the mix. Unfortunately, not knowing this leads to just turning up, which exacerbates the problem.
@@historyrepeated4239 So true!
@PhilthyCasual You missed my point. I said check your amp volume accordingly during soundcheck but don't go turning it up during the set. That only causes problems for FOH. Instead ask more guitar in the monitors if possible.
@PhilthyCasual That's a good point. I always trust the soundguy on this since usually it's one guy doing both monitors and foh. My amp is set up so I can hear it properly and have some guitars on my monitor along with lead vocals since I sing lead. It might not be a perfect mix but it almost never is with wedges. But if theres two people for foh and stage monitors, I go for monitor guy if I need to hear myself more and trust the foh to be good anyway. Usually it is.
As a veteran of the functions scene, the reality is....if you don't comply with the venue's rules,you won't get another booking. I mothballed my twin and bought a Blackstar 50r and mic'd.
I have noticed guitars being so low in the mix, it's basically drums, bass and singer.
I still think everyone should play at the level of the vocalist with a bit of cut through for solos( although I'm our rhythm guitarist).You are there for the paying customers, anything too loud is a bad thing.
I'm so glad I'm retired. Volume is the magic of electric guitar, if dynamics are used. I'd rather played all acoustic than to have to worry about what modern players deal with as far as volume.
The best sounding show I've ever heard was Chon when they played at Webster Hall in NYC during their "Grow" tour. Mario had his Vox Ac30 and Eric was on a Fender Supersonic 22.
Remove the fact that these two defined a generation of new guitarists (niche and albeit short lived), their amps were extensions of their guitars. Nothing against modelers or digital rigs as I use them now but there is some truth to Amps being musical instruments in their own right.
I saw them in Orlando 2020 and both guitarists where using Matchless Spitfire combos. Beautiful!
I'm 70 years old. I've been playing guitar in bands since 1967. I've played thru everything from 100W Marshall and Ampeg amps (in the '60s and '70s) to a tweed Princeton (5W, 8" spkr) with a mic in front of it. There's a reason they started putting master volume knobs on guitar amps about 50 years ago! Nowadays I play thru little combo amps with 5 or 10 watts and an 8 or 10 inch speaker. I have an original (not a re--issue) '65 Deluxe (no reverb), and to my ears now (not always in the past) that amp is LOUD.
I like to hear what I'm doing, but I don't like for my ears to be ringing when I go to bed.
And I do NOT play wedding gigs!
Wedding / corporate band player here. I go fully direct with quad cortex, and it sounds good enough through the in ears. However - I have found on multiple occasions when stepping off stage into the crowd (on wireless packs) that I take an in ear out and the sound person has me barely audible.
Giving the sound person full control only works if their aesthetic actually suits the situation.
There’s no point me playing a nice Nile Roger’s part if no one can hear it!
I’d love to stick an amp on stage but with the percentage of venues now having harsh sound restrictions it just isn’t a feasible option as I would be told to turn it down / off anyway.
I've had a similar situation - I came in with a solo for Johnny B Goode, with ears out, realised there was no guitar out front....Classic
@@johnnathancordy that really is a classic - taking a solo and realising in the middle of it that the audience haven’t actually noticed!
I try to play ball and be a team player stage volume wise - and when even your rhythm playing is not being put adequately out of FOH it makes me question the point of doing the gig at all! Oh to be a sax player where at least the instrument is shiny (and v loud)✨
@@johnnathancordylol
I luckily play a lot with bands that haven’t gone all iems and I bring a Super for the big catering halls or other kinds of big rooms and a Deluxe for the barns and restaurants. When I started bringing the Super I got so many side-eye looks lol, but once people heard it and how perfect it mixes it’s only been satisfaction and compliments, those amps really were designed to sound great in these very types of bands and scenarios. I believe the tide will turn. It’s our responsibility obviously to bring the right amp for the room (and drummer 😵💫), but the mindset should shift from putting a mic on the amp so that the guitarist will turn it down, and towards a concept that you mic the amp for reinforcement only, to give a little more when needed to fill out the mains mix or to send to monitors other side of big stage.
I think Mick and Dan, though they try, do not really understand that they are in a different situation than many guitarists. The first thing I noticed watching their episode was that you cannot run a DR at 3 or 4 most places these days without a sound a battle. And honestly, I just want to play not battle, trick, practice diplomacy just so I can have an amp on stage. I finally gave in and got a POD Express. It’s great. It fits my budget and does what I need.
Exactly. I watched their video and I enjoy their opinions, but I didn't really think any man who owns a room full of pedals and guitars has great credibility when talking about overcoming 'option paralysis' :) Their situation is very fortunate, and it might also be more common in places like the US, where more housing is detached and has more floor space in general. But if you're living in a typical UK space, and playing in places where the guitar isn't always the most important thing, then volume really is a concern. Whether its a greater concern to you than tone is a personal call!
@@ianwillo yeah. I live in Tokyo. So... I can't do what they do. Also, I bear no grudge but, having a stock of all types of pedals, guitars and amps on hand to use for various situations is a far cry from what most of us can do. I don't have a budget for more than an amp, guitar and a couple of reasonably priced pedals.
@@GraniteSoundtrack Tokyo is a great city! But yes, pretty restrictive on space from what I remember. Is there much of a live music, independent scene there?
@@ianwillo there's live houses for various genres. Not really a pub live scene thing. Pretty pro usually too. There's a lot of tours that go through though. All the big and medium tours come through.
The silent stage is a reality for many gigging musicians in the church, function bands, and large-scale pop gigs. My gigging life is elsewhere, playing jazz clubs in New York and frequently touring with an artist who likes to have energy and vibration on stage: live drums, Hammond organ, electric bass, electric guitar (Deluxe Reverb on 4). We still use wedges, not in-ear monitors.
It is difficult for me to get excited about playing music without an amplifier. As good as the technology is these days, it comes down to FEEL for me. Like, if we collectively decided: “We are not using traditional guitars anymore. We are going to use MIDI controllers, with a library of predictably fabulous tones.” That would be a marvel, embraced by many players - but I’d rather stay home.
I don’t mean to rain on anyone’s parade here. This is just my perspective. Do what you love, and adapt to modern-day working realities. There’s so many ways to embrace the guitar!
From playing live and touring for 50yrs there is a golden rule that has ALWAYS applied: A BAND IS ALWAYS AS LOUD AS IT'S DRUMMER...every musician wants to be heard... Once in ears became prevalent the stage "FUN" ended...used to be 10-20 people in the wings on both sides of the stage creating a great party atmosphere...then all of a sudden all they could hear was the drums...goodbye, they all left...🤷♂
I will never stop using my tube amps. There is just something awesome about plugging straight into a great tube amp.
Old man here.... Im not giving up my tube amps. A cranked amp is what inspired me to strat playing guitar in the 1sr place. Its not practical...but should music be practical?
If you're doing it as a job, yes. We all love a cranked amp, but do you love it enough to get fired over it?
@@trev3971 That's absurd, Like hiring a roofer to fix your roof but then complain about the sound of a hammer. I wouldn't want the job!!
@@totalbullion5882 I guess you won't be working as a musician in the real world, then. Have fun roofing!
@PhilthyCasual There are plenty of working bar and function bands that use amps. But in any situation where volume needs to be heavily controlled, those gigs are going to bands that can adapt their stage volume to be as low as asked. If you're playing in one of those bands, you need to have a silent stage solution or they'll find someone who does.
Depends on who your “cranked” amp is pointing at. You want to play to an audience in a small pub and be asked to come back to play next week?
I played digital for 17 years and bought a tube amp 3 years ago. I do not play live, i enjoy far more having the quality and the presence only a tube amp has.
Watching Dan & Mick was the first time in a while that made me think about an amp set up again because that rig seems genuinely awesome. But then you think about the helix/fractal etc and realise you basically have the Pete Cornish switching system that you always wanted, which was completely unobtainable not so long ago. I don’t think that extra 5% you get from an amp is worth ruining your back and hearing for, and the audience don’t give a rats what you use.
I am a guitar player, I've always played valve amps, I've always been courteous and accommodating regarding stage volume. That said I have atrocious tinnitus, It rings like a bell! Never EVER have I had problems with the stage volume of guitars. The snare drum and cymbals have completely wrecked my hearing
Life became soooo sweet when our drummer switched to an electronic kit! Most folks can't tell the difference, as it's a full size kick and toms. As a guitarist/vocalist and using traditional pedals through an amp modeller (Two Notes Opus) I can now hear myself, and we can adapt our volume to almost any space. Biggest bonus of all - sound checks take 15 minutes - not the 45 mins to an hour we took before, mostly sorting the drums out....AND...my ears don't ring for days after each gig! Now if only we could persuade the bassist......
I still go to gigs regularly where amps are on stage. It's not dying in any way. Sure, you can't bring a plexi and wack it on 10, but a deluxe reverb, or anything that style and wattage on volume 3 sounds glorious anyway ... perfectly loud enough to cut through but not too loud to blow faces off.
I've just played a local festival with a trio for the first time in more years than I care to remember, doing vocals and guitar - rhythm with a few lead lines for luck - and going for an "edge of breakup tone". Thanks to the really helpful sound-tech, I got the best on-stage sound I've ever been lucky enough to work with (light years better than anything I remember back in the '70s!), and people from the audience came up afterwards to praise the guitar sound. What was I using?... I've got a busted foot, so to travel light, I'd left my amp at home and I just took a NUX MG-30. I love playing through a valve amp - I just feel an extra level of "connection", for want of a better term - but I was shocked by how good the the MG-30 sounded and "felt".
I can’t even imagine having to put up with all this bs. At this point, you should just hire a DJ.
Yep I went digital as well. I use my Boss Gt1000 Core for Sunday worship. My worship leader was impressed on how good it sounded through the FOH. Then at home, I play the Boss into frfr. What is nice, even at low volumes your tone still sounds consistent.
With many of the newer amps offering DO and power attenuation, I'm actually seeing more amps on stage. After 50+ years playing, always with an amp behind me, and now working with my church's praise team, I'm most comfortable with that amp close at hand. That allows me to determine my sound rather than someone else.
Its normally the drummers fault. They start off quiet, but by the second set, they've had a couple more beers and start knocking the sh1t out of everything.
Don’t blame the drummers! We are drummers after all 😜
What do you call people who hang out with musicians?
I'd love to play at any volume I wish, but that's not reality in most clubs. Mick and Dan will have tinnitus very soon I'm afraid. We've had to switch to smaller amps and getting crunch from pedals where necessary. It's not necessarily preferred, but we can hear each other and the sound man and audience is happy. Even in the studio, if you play live together, you can't always isolate when you really need to hear each other and respond in kind. Your milage may vary.
I think it may be that it's guitars that are almost dead, that is except for guitar players who play in their bedrooms, and maybe 's that's good thing. In fact music as we used to know it is mostly dead for most people. They'd much rather play with their phones. In fact it might actually be that life as we used to know it is dead having been displaced by phones. But if you're a guitarist who likes to play at home, amps can be very cool. Deluxe Reverbs are definitely still cool.
Def played lots of shows in smaller bars and pubs where the only thing going through the pa were vox and maybe a tiny bit of kick drum, and no minitors. The stage volume WAS the volume of the band. If the drummer had gone full tilt, he would have been way too loud. You would just have your buddy stand in the crowd while you jammed and gave you the thumbs up or down to turn your amp up or down to macth the drummers volume lol
I don’t relate to this vs. that. I use whatever the best tool for the job is. That could be a Fender Twin with a Les Paul or a Quad Cortex with an Ibanez AZ2022. I’ve used Kemper, Princeton, H5, Boss Core, Quilter Toneblock, Mesa Lonestar, Fractal AX8, ToneX, Quilter phantom block, Rivera Chubster 40, Blues Jr…I think about the venue, band, genre, instrument, and cartage, then use the rig that suits the situation. For IEM gigs it’s modelers all day. Otherwise it’s an amp of various sizes. It’s really that simple for me: what’s the monitoring situation?
One prominent point from the TPS video is being glossed over. This is not a battle we're going to win overnight; It's the start of turning the tide ... with reasonable solutions like in TPS. There is no question many soundmen/venues will push-back on on-stage amps. We have to push back and be willing to walk away. (Obviously, if you have to work to put food on the table your hands are more tied. And if you prefer in-ears/modelers/silent stages that's fine too). Maybe we win; Maybe we lose. But the TPS video is trying to rally the troops.
We don't use traditional amps in the band I'm in. Both myself (bass) and the guitarist swapped to FRFR speakers and modelling pedalboards. Load-ins and -outs are quick and efficient, with no bad backs or whacked shins from shifting heavy amps, and the stage mix is always spot-on.
We played the Busfest VW festival over the weekend and didn't even bother taking our speakers (both Headrush). The sound was excellent and the load-out was a matter of maybe two minutes for me and the guitarist. It's definitely the way forward.
In Texas I haven’t run into any volume issues gigging my Deluxe Reverb with the volume set b/t 4.5 - 6.5 depending on the venue and almost always mic’d. These are night clubs, bars, and multi art venues.
I may have mistaken the TPS point mentioned here, but I thought it was to give the sounds at sound check in such an order that you don't get told to turn down because of perceived loudness in stead of actual loudness.
I bought a Boss TAE and now my little 20w Marshall goes from 0 to 50. Screw 11, 50 is where it's at. It's such a different beast to my Helix, it's a whole quantum leap better to my ears, it feels so much better 'under the fingers'. I can be quiet as a mouse or do structural damage to the local watering hole. I can get all my sounds sorted at home and I don't have to worry about how turning up and down change the break up point. It's so transformational I'm quite emotional.
The whole amp turned to face the wall is much cheaper than most people think 😊
More amp companies need to incorporate attenuators in their amplifiers (ie Hughes & Kettner) if they want to remain popular. I use Rivera amps, but use an 18 watt H&K tubemeister for occasional small gigs and can take it down to 5 watts if need be for rehearsals and it is still more than loud enough to cope. Spending anything between £400 to £800 on a "name" attenuator (just to drop the dbs)does NOT make good economic sense to me as I'm no longer a pro. So it would be a big plus for those of us who still love our valves, if amp makers could take a leaf out of H&Ks book. There is way too much compromise going on and there needs to be less of it, you can still have a great tone without it being a health risk. "Silent stage" just does nothing for me at all, a soulless and sterile environment when it comes to playing live . . .totally weird ! .
I’m old enough to remember people saying Tube Amps are dead back in the ‘90s when we were using racks… and then the same people said Tube Amps were dead when the first Line 6 Pod was released, and then the first Fractal, and then again when the Kemper was released… and also when we saw Tiny Head amps, everyone said it was the end of larger Tube Amps… and yet Tube amps are well alive and still exist… some evolved in some Hybrid solutions such the GrandMeister Deluxe from H&K, or the Diezel VHX. You can run without cab, with signal sent to FOH and IEM… more and more Amps are including a loadbox now, which solve the problem of being “too loud” on (silent) stage… New amps are also including MIDI Recall to have “Presets” so you can tweak your tone for each song, or even include some post amp effects such Delay, Mod, Reverb, etc… Again, H&K and Diezel do a great job for that. I wouldn’t be surprised if we would see more and more tube amps brands having similar amps in the future to keep their tube amp expertise and real tone with all benefit of digital such cabless mode, control of volume (loadbox), Preset and onboard effects… Digital will always loose value and be obsolete when the “new” version is released, while Tube amps will always age like fine wine and still be used 50 years later no matter what “new” thing could be released by then. That’s why I don’t buy Digital and I invest into real boutique amps such Two-Rock, Dr Z, and my next amp will be the Diezel VHX. They will still work and be used when I will be long gone…
I have been playing over 40 years, and I am a tube amp guy...and I have NEVER bought an amp new. Part of the reason is that on the used market, you can get great amps that have barely been played or need very little work for cheap. An amp at the size that it is becomes a boat anchor to someone who might be moving around. If a person is looking to not play like they once did and go to a modeler at home situation, then the amp is generally first to go. There were times in the past when I sold my amps but kept most my gear (before modelers) only to buy used amps later. Today I buy amps I don't need. My main amp is one I bought back in 1994 (30 years ago) and I still use it today as my main sound.
Our drummer is SO loud (but amazing). It just turns into a volume war. The amount of times I asked “am I even plugged in?” 😂
Another option is using an amp with a reactive load with IR's. I use a Vox AC30 and a Suhr Reactive Load with IR's at church. No stage volume, send the signal from the IR to the board. Have the amp at 50% on the MV and the tone is great. At home, I run Marshalls into the Suhr Reactive Load with IRs and to my ear, it has recorded a better tone than the Helix and Fractal units friends have brought over and we recorded with. If stage volume is the issue, but you want your Plexi tone with your pedal board, the Suhr Reactive Load with IR's allows you to use your amp/rig while having no stage volume. The Suhr 4x12 Greenback IR with a 57 and 121 sounds really close to my Marshall 4x12 1960BX with Greenbacks.
I live on the east coast of America and my band has gone through some major changes over the last couple years. We were a 5 piece band with 3 guitar players. The loud guy got kicked out. But the big thing for us was the drummer sets the volume. Knowing this we have always been a loud rock band. Last year we decided to make the conscious decision to get direct in tones and the drummer is now using an electric drum kit. I use a Boss Katana 100 MKII now for over a year vs my Vox ac30 that couldn’t get to the right volume to sound right. Now our band gets nearly double the gigs we were getting because we understand we are just background noise to one’s night out. We’re a cover band and we get that people still wanna hear the band, but they also wanna hear their conversation to the person next to them. So we are all direct in and are now a three piece. Some places I turn the speaker off completely and only do direct in.
Amps will never be dead.
My current band runs ampless. I use a Boss ME90, our other guitar uses a line 6 modeler, and the bassist had a modeler as well. We all got some good IRs and spent the money we would have used on amps on better guitars. The band runs thru our own PA and we control the mix with an Ipad. Keep it simple.
How are you liking the ME90? Have been looking at that format due to my present distaste for programming through menus.
@@kencubala9560 I got one for that reason. I find the ME90 is way easier to adjust sound live on the fly then my previous touchscreen modeler. The default amps arent too bad, but you can also load IRs which is way better.
Sound quality wise its also great. I own a Marshall DSL 20. But I dont use it for gigs. I did for a few months until I got the ME90 dialed in really close to the amp. My bandmates could not tell the difference. Thats when I went ampless.
@@matttactics8275 Thank you for the response and descriptions. Glad you are enjoying your setup. Have been using an old line 6 flextone II which really sounds and feels good, but would like to use outboard effects instead of all the multifunction switches and knobs on the amp.
If you control your own mix OR you are playing in a professional venue with actual sound engineers mixing your FOH, then I can see playing without amps, although I’ve never done it. But the reason that those Pedal Show guys are giving the advice of not giving these “sound guys” your loudest sound isn’t so that you can play too loud and drive the customers away. It’s because for the most part, these “sound guys” in bars and clubs DON’T KNOW HOW TO MIX SOUND! That’s the truth of the matter. It’s a flat-out vote of no confidence, where you’re saying to yourself, “Even if I’m not standing in the best place to judge the FOH mix, I‘ll still probably do a better job with my own sound than relying on these “sound guys.’
@@nickkoutsoukis lmao, youre right. Since we run our own PA and mix I had never thought about that.
You can use a plexiglass perspex screen around the drums. Cuts down volume and still allows them to play at normal power. Most of the bars in Nashville use baffles around the guitar amps.
Whenever I do weddings nowadays it's pretty much a silent stage. One of the bands i work with has a venue residency based on how quiet they are. Electronic drum kits are becoming more and more popular/necessary and either an oxbox or a Helix seem to be the only options.
In pubs on the other hand, I still use a 30 watt head and a 1x12 and it sounds ace. A lot of times I don't even mic up the speaker. Not having a separate sound man means everyone is responsible for their own volumes. This can be both a blessing and a curse.
I have a Fender Princeton Reverb, a Kemper Stage Profiler (set up for wireless and IEM) and a 4U rack containing a Mesa Triaxis, Lexicon MPXG2 and 2020 power amp. The Kemper will NEVER replace the Triaxis for feel and dynamics even though I've found some of the profiles of other preamps I have sound better than the real thing. There's also the influence of feedback on sustain and note bloom. The PR runs with the volume on 9 but the master is around 3 just to catch some of that touch sensitivity at low volumes and it blooms wonderfully if an eq is tweaked for the resonance peaks of the amp. All of the onstage volumes in bands I've played in have been set by the volume of the drummer and, particularly, the impact of cymbals on other instruments. In fact, I even left a band once because the drummer wouldn't reign his volume in. This was even after it was proven in one rehearsal how tighter the band was as a result of everyone being able to hear each other better.
I've done some time running front of house sound for various set ups as well as doing a fair bit of gigging with both live amps and modellers and I'mma just say this debate is usually fueled more by ignorance than anything else.
I can absolutely mix with/around amps, but a lot of the "too loud" conversation comes from a loudness arms race. Unless you have a slant cab then your amp is pointed at your ankles and you don't hear it as well as others in the room, so now lets say there's 2 guitarists who both have amps who keep turning themselves up because "I can't hear myself", soon it turns into noisy unmixable slop.
Another source of awful loudness issues is the monitor wedge. I've played with someone who had a 100w marshall with a slant cab and STILL asked for his amp in his own wedge. Without even getting into the phasing you're causing yourself, if you have all that AND you're cranking everyone else in the wedge AND you keep asking for more vocals the entire thing is going to just turn into a feedback mess. Rule of thumb, never put your own amp or any drums in the monitor, and put effort into trying to have as quiet of wedge mix as possible. you actually hear better at lower SPLs anyway so you'll play better AND have more separation between instruments if you get comfortable at lower volumes on stage.
gear guidelines:
if you're playing a house show or small bar then you want a proper amp but keep the wattage under control. Use an amp stand to help you hear yourself better.
If you're playing a larger bar or a club with decent wedges then you can either go with amps or modellers but plan on also having either a hybrid set up or an FRFR cab if you're going modeller.
If you're playing a "pro" gig (large tours, churches, house bands, weddings) then you should have both solutions available and discuss with the venue which is better for a given gig.
Any time you're using IEMs then modellers are better.
Also remember that most sound engineers are over worked and under paid, if you put a little effort into making their job easier that leaves more time for them to focus on making you sound good. So even if they're being a goober, just try and work together because anyone who works that job is passionate about musing and making bands sound good.
Even though I've used a modeller exclusively since around 2008, I still use a power amp to a trad cab on stage, not only as a bit of personal monitoring, but also to get the cab's speakers 'talking' to the guitar's pickups is pretty important. I don't have it that loud, but just enough to get that natural feedback going. The seperate (direct FRFR) signal to the PA is totally controllable out front, so what I'm doing on stage is to get the right sound and still minimise excessive stage volume. As usual, especially in UK venues, they tend to have restrictions on level in place, so a bit of compromise is required on that.
Watched that episode. Agree on DR for tone. Love my 76 but it stays home. Got a TMDR and use it live. Feed the house with the IR and attenuate the output per the situation or go silent. Here in Nash, the Princeton has been taking over for some time and even those 12 watts are too much for some gigs. Mike Campbell used 2 Princetons to tour the world. I can see even 5 watt amps getting more popular for live work.
If you want to be a working guitarist, you have to do what the people employing you say. Unless you just record music in a studio and sell it, that is. I gigged with a function band recently, and they had no silent stage equipment. It was probably the loudest gig I've ever played, apart from maybe outdoor gigs where an external company supplied a huge PA system. Certainly the loudest stage volume. Still got paid. Judging by the amount of equipment now available for silent stage guitarists, there's a market for it, and so there must be demand.
I agree with them. It’s another undermining situation just like the situation around financial compensation. If a 15watt tube amp is too much, it’s not a gig I want. If it’s not a team working towards a good mix, it’s not a gig I want. If I can’t use an appropriate amp and stage volume for a situation I won’t be playing. If I use a modeller, it’ll be my choice. There is a minimum amount of fun I will settle for. Inaudibility on stage (or out front) is below that threshold. I gave up trusting unknown sound guys a long time ago. What is the point of playing my ass off dynamically and being seen but not heard?
That’s not being a musician, that’s being a manikin. I’m very concerned about being too loud, but at the same time if I’m playing into the void, I can do that on the couch.
If I trust the guy, I’m fine with giving him control. I AM ALSO A SOUND GUY. The guitar sound guy.
Throughout the years and because of sound decibel regulations here in Los Angeles clubs I have had to tone down my backline volume to the point that I now use, full time, a Kemper rig. I have my Powered Kemper modded to stereo and use two Kemper 1x12 Kabs in stereo behind me, but almost just for presence, and I now send my master outs to the board. In the old days at clubs like the Whiskey, Troubadour, Roxy, etc., I could bring my big Marshall 100w full or half stacks, crank them up and play as loud as I wanted. I am referring to the late 70's and 80's and 90;'s. Back them, there were no regulations and no limitations. I used 2 Metaltronics modded Marshall JMP heads and 4 4x12 cabinets. Those days are long, long in the past. I'm glad that I'm old now (64) because I don't want to play in a club with, instead of 2 bands in one night there at 5-7 bands and all have a 30 minute time slot and have to use the same drums and amps with few exceptions. No thanks. I do more fun small gigs today and jams. The Kemper serves me well and sounds and, most importantly, feels fantastic. In fact, another comment made here below hits the nail on the head. Even with a great tube amp of which I own more than I want to count, you can't turn them up loud enough to make the tubes sing and get the tone, cadence and feel. Kemper, Axe-Fx III.and Quad Cortex are the amps of the future, even in large venues. They get neat perfect tone and close to perfect feel at any volume and with either FRFR cabs or in ear and going to the board they do the job. Plus, it is a 10th of the weight of lugging around massive amps and cabs. Great video! 🎸
I agree that the best is to have an amp on stage. I definitely think that amp sales is taking a knock due to modellers. I use modelling extensively but I recommend using your own “powered speaker” for your own reference and could give the traditional amp “feeling” and “feedback”. There are various options. The benefit is that you don’t need to drive your “reference system” so loud to get the original sound of a driven amp - you get that set up in your modeller. So, you can manage the on-stage volume a little better. Further, at the end of the day, protecting your ears is actually the most important.
I regularly gig my 1961 Blonde Bassman on 6. I have different cabs for different venues, I turn the cab away from the audience to the back wall, and I have an attenuator just in case I need to bring it down. There are plenty of ways to manage volume and still retain your tone from a valve amp. And, like Dan said, most important thing about band gig volume is the drummer and if youre able to hear the vocals clearly
Eugh, I was interested at first but trying to get through all this I just realized...everyone now just massively overthinks absolutely everything and it's driving all of us totally nuts and gradually sapping all of the life and soul from society. In it's place we just get completely corporatized superficiality and total oversaturation of everything. Since when did any of this suddenly become a "problem"? People have used amps for every kind of gig for decades and had a great time...suddenly now we have abundant software and endless digital bollox, it's now a problem? Why? You have a master volume...turn it down a bit and crack on having a blast in life. Or just use some digital setup if that's what you have to or is what you prefer...but why are we making it a "problem"? Why the heated debate as if to divide everyone into a purely tribal one or the other mindset? Amps are suddenly either totally pointless or you're some sort of grandpa who doesn't "get it"? No, amps are great, digital can also be great. They're tools that ARE different, especially live, and each have their own merits. Trying to endlessly overanalyse absolutely every last detail of everything down to precisely what dB a wedding function needs to have the band at is justmental.
Reading all the comments, i just feel bad for you guys. Where i'm from, you can bring any amp you want and nobody says anything about volume, and the venues that has it's own backline, uses 2 100w heads with 2 4x12 cabs for guitars, and a 300w head and a 4x10 cab for bass. I get why you love digital so much lol
It’s sad times now😢 I think lots of guitarists miss the Marshall stack with 2x4x4 at weddings 😢😅
A PR, covered with a baffle of some sort, turned to about 4 with pedals, and your own monitor for your guitar. That's the way to go. I can't tell hiw many guitarists that have seen my setup are emulating it.
I quite like a silent stage. The benefits in mix quality for the people in the crowd far outweighs the negligible differences in tone (again to the average listener) as long as you FEEL good playing your guitar, what does it actually matter what the amp is?
For the past 12 years I’ve been using my Two Rock combo in a function/wedding band with a 2nd guitarist through his Mark 5 Mesa amp, bassist through a Markbass combo. Also real drums, keys and 4 vocals. In the last 12 years I’ve never once had to play at low volume, been told to turn down or triggered a limiter. Consequently, I’d never go the modelling route.
Wow. That is clean and overdriven, sustaining. Just enough compression. Nice. I play very low vol almost all the time. There are sounds you can only get with the amp turned up a bit. You can fake it somewhat. It makes me cry a little bit. I remember playing gigs with my amp cooking a bit and it's a whole different thing. One approach is smaller amps. Rock on everybody and do what you have to to keep working.
Even with in-ears, I prefer to use an amp on stage. My solution: bought 2 laney Cub 10 (they were cheap and I can play in stereo).
They are the 1st version, with just gain, tone and volume. They sound big when mic'ed. And they sound great doesn't matter if you are only driving the preamp or the power section or both.
And together they weight the same as a Blues Junior.
I have a hybrid approach. I use a Friedman IR-X, going into an OX Stomp to go direct to FOH, but I also have a separate non cab-simulated line going into my Powerstage 700 and V30 loaded 112 cab for stage volume. And I'm a full-time professional performing and recording session guitarist.
After decades of humping my marshall valve combos around i discovered that my cheap pa speakers along with a 50-50 prosound power amp, a decent Yamaha mixer and pedal board gave me and my Les Paul deluxes a great sound without having to hire heavy lifting companies to move fender twins,ac30s, and marshall combos around, yes those amps gave a good sound in the right venue BUT, they were only ONE sound.
I’m a pro sax player who gigs the London wedding and function scene regularly. Unfortunately I’ve developed a hearing condition called hyperacusis due to loud stage volumes and drummers not being aware of dynamics. I’ve only been gigging for 4 years (graduated from Berklee in 2019) but I so wish there was an option to get the tone we all desire yet play quieter. I often come home from work with ear pain even after wearing ear plugs on stage.
Deluxe Reverb IS the BEST amp. Jonathan. It's the GOAT, there's no way around, man. Stop beating around the bush.
Have the Faux one from fender, but I had to get the real one again. Side by side the 65 reissue has IT
Just depends on the type of music. I play in a metal band and we still turn out relatively loud and never get much pushback from sound guys at all.
I'm in Brisbane Australia. Prior to Covid I did an average 4 gigs a week pubs and clubs, functions etc since 1996. Over that time it went from it being a free-for-all in terms of equipment and volumes bands played at (leaving aside complaints or requests to turn down) to now being generally a totally controlled environment in many venues. Controlled PA systems, db meters that will cut the power etc.
We were even forced to do a gig at one venue that restricted us to 75db. Needless to say we had to unplug and play totally acoustic and scale down to one powered speaker for the PA. That was an extreme case.
But what I wanted to mention was, this of course is not the ideal in terms of a musicians performance. All dynamics are lost, spontaneity, interaction, the free flow of musical ideas are all restricted as one constantly aims to not cut the power off rather than aim to engage with the audience. This is what is lost and not often talked about in this equation is, these are not good gigs for the audience. Unless you're someone who hated anything above background noise (like my father) you won't be happy or interacting at a gig like this. Most gigs around pubs in our area now are soloists meandering away in a corner somewhere doing covers in the most uninteresting fashion, totally void of anything that might interest a music lover or excite any passer by to stop, listen or spend money on a few drinks even. Not to mention the long lost opportunity for anyone to dance and under the cover of a darkened dance floor and all engulfing audio to drown out discomfort.
It unfortunately is the current reality and has killed live music. It's not just that the amp is generally no longer needed, it's the restricted PA systems, totally killing any vibe, which is bad for musicians and the audiences.
Ive been lucky enough to play my Deluxe on vol 8-10. I learned from Pete Thorn when the sound guy asks you for guitar, turn down a lot then Live, match ur volume with the band and use the rest of the volume as a place to go and for solo volumes.
To me the game changer is In Ear Monitors. My band is moving full IEM (for tons of reasons) and I really appreciate my own mix to be decoupled from others', and the whole thing be decoupled from PA. Is it "less fun"? Maybe (I lost the sustain/feedback thing), but I can now ear every little detail in what I'm playing, everywhere, throughout the whole set, and I no longer have to worry about balancing volumes in the amp + SM57 + FRFR / PA levels. SUCH A RELIEF!
The tide is turning, silent stages and modelers are a phase. Hold the line my tone brothers and buy big amps while demand is low. I got a 1970 Super Reverb for $1000 and use it on wedding gigs, the band loves my sound and it really isn’t too loud for catering halls, it was seemingly designed precisely for those venues and bands w/ horns and keys and loud drums etc. (I often get it up to 5-7 vol no problem.)
I agree with you, you need to be able to play silent stage or with amps. I fought using a modeler at church until they told me the amp had to go backstage. I wasn't going to carry an amp and pedalboard for 4 or 5 songs if the amp was backstage. I made the leap to Helix and it is very convenient and gets me 85% of the amp experience and everybody is happy. For home and other gigs, it's amps all the way!
I always give the sound person my max volume. I roll down the volume on my guitar and roll up for solos when we start our set. But has the night progresses, I start to edge my volume up slightly. But yeah it's a battle for a guitarist in modern times using tube amps. But you have to control your volume. Not many people at a bar or any live venue want to hear a screaming guitar all night. Rolling up and down on the guitar volume is a great way to control it.
Appreciate the reality check. Love TPS but those guys get to play in a different venue-universe than most local working guitarists I know. Play amps loud locally you starve.
Barefaced speaker cabinets spread the audio around. Which might allow you to lower your volume in some situations. Deeflexx shields can be put in front of speakers and they spread the sound around the stage. Which would allow you to be heard all over and stop the direct front of speaker from being too loud. The Deeflexx costs 75% of a Barefaced 12" speaker cabinet.
I'm playing a Marshall JVM 410 with a Deflexx (to avoid the speaker beam) in front of my Bogner 2x12 cabinet. My amp can be too loud - for sure ... but in reality I never play too loud. The interaction between my mastervolume and presence- and resonance- controls is good. So I need no power soak to save the tone..
In the last years I watched too many guitar slingers playing over low - watt amps, which get lost in the mix- caused by the overcompression of their amps , used at its absolute volume limit.
So I'm happy with my equipment choice.
I gig a fair bit and I think a lot of venues need to accept that if they need to keep asking a band to turn down then they are an acoustic venue. Im talking reasonable levels, not Motorhead loud, ultimately a band, particularly a rock band is loud.
We use IEMs but I still like an amp on stage. It adds a level of immersion when the vocal and drum mics are all getting a bit of bleed.
Amp stand and hot plate attenuator for me - often with amp to one side pointing at me/cross-stage (fold back) with FOH handled by engineer. Biggest barrier to silent stage for me locally here in the US, is that in ear feeds aren’t always available and in ear mix functionality even more rare.
But then, I have been asked to turn down when playing an unamplified acoustic gig (with a dummy condenser mic)
I agree with them. If an amp like a Deluxe is too much it’s not much of a gig. I use amps of similar wattage, Marshall 2061, 20 watt JCM800/SC20 . They are just right. There are still plenty of gigs like biker rally’s where I can use my bluesbreaker or 2204
Just my 2 cents. I play guitar and bass in our dad rock covers band, swapping over between sets. Play mainly pubs and small events, we went silent stage about 12 months ago and can’t recommend it enough. Drummer has an electronic kit and we have our own PA and run sound ourselves.
I’m 55 and have been playing for years through valve amps with acoustic kits but if you can make the transition from Amps on stage to in ears, life is so much easier. Turning the whole band down FOH with one knob is a gift, no more crazy feedback issues and setup and break down is a breeze.
Every player will tell you there’s nothing like getting your trousers flapping from your 4x12 but the realities of modern day small scale gigging, is keeping everybody sweet, punters, pub managers and the like.
Technology has advanced to a point now where the average Joe is not gonna now what your playing through.
Worth considering entering the world of modelling technology if you want repeat gigs, ( and you’re not shit) 😂
Can do a lot with a champ and a mic. Makes the sound guy happy and still breaks up like a real amp.
Well. I HOPE amps don't sell anymore so that I can afford to buy a couple that I have always wanted. Pros and Cons related to smaller stage amps ... Better for your back, better for your hearing. If you have a drummer that fits in with a 22 watt amp, great. Most of my 40 years of weekend stage playing was through a 40 watt 1964 Super Reverb which I bought brand new. Still have it. But let me tell you ... If you want a crowd to get up and get on their dancing feet, hire a drummer that can destroy a bass drum and a snare head. But be prepared to carry in an SR or a Bandmaster at the least, and move some air. I would rather do that than depend on some guy mixing the sound that has never heard my band. But what do I know about today's groups? DO they still carry around their own PA system? Do they pay a live sound engineer who knows their material and is the most important person in their band? And those amps I would like to own, are a BF Deluxe Amp and an old type "A" brownface Concert. NOW we are talking sweet tones.
I love a huge guitar sound. Ramones, Sex Pistols, Jesus and Mary Chain, etc. Not difficult to achieve. Don’t need loud stage volume. A nice professional sound system helps a great deal.
I think the words we need to start thinking about is 'amp projection' versus 'stage volume.' I used stage shields back 10 (who am I kidding more like 15) years ago when we were still expected to bring a half stack and never had complaints. I went away from them with smaller amps but recently went back. This moves the 'loudness' back with the drummer so you can hear it when you pull back to your jam zone with the drummer, but it does not project out to the crowd and more importantly the sound person. These amps were designed to push out to the crowd when bad PA systems were the norm. We don't need that projection anymore, but we sure love that tonal goodness. Final thoughts, I do think to stay busy even here in the States you have to be conscious of sound and so learning and implementing a hybrid setup has been great move for me personally. If I'm at a good stage where I can rock, I mic and primarily push my amp on stage, terrible sound room and stage I give them just my Quad Cortex signal amp and pull down my stage amp with a shield so I can still enjoy what I like to hear while accommodating the venue.
I have a Fender DeVille 2x12 and a Fender Super Sonic. I use a JHS power soak running into the preamp in / power amp out to control the volume. Almost everywhere we play I can get useable volumes with tone... Its the new music conditions setting the volumes too as well as being near residential areas. One place that had music for decades stopped because of complaints and most of those were towards the end of bands and I think it was the bands bringing in the new public address systems with wave technology as that causes the sound to stay nice and level but it throws the sound at that level way further than the old school systems did. That happened to me in my apartment when I bought a Fender Mustang digital amp and I had a pitchfork uprising on my hands although the volume was much lower that when I ran through my 22watt Fender Deluxe .... I am glad I am old and won't have to put up with the new trends for much longer.... People in their late 30's to their 80's love our band as we keep hearing that we are the best band they've heard in our area in decades.... I may eventually try one of the new Fender digital amps made to be like the Twin Reverb and I think a Princeton...
I have a Fender ProJnr 15w amp. I've rehoused it in a custom-made 210 tweed-lined cab, and I also carry around a Bugera Powersoak inside the back. I've gigged on some pretty big stages with that, and I get a mixed experience. At times the sound engineer has told me to turn up, and at times he's told me to turn down, but either way, the amp runs at around 5-6 on the volume knob, just at the point where the amp is about to break up. At all times the amp has been mic'd up, and next to the drummer (acoustic drums). At times I run with the powersoak, and at times I dont. Seems like the most flexible arrangement to me
We really need to start seeing the conversation go toward modelers into general purpose amps that provide no character. I was playing guitar pedals into keyboard amps back in the 90's and it worked great. You set the volume for the stage environment and you have no need to drive the amp hard to get your tone.