When I worked at the Cincinnati Symphony, we used 80 lb. "Natural" color paper, specially cut to 10" x 14" which is roughly equivalent to B4 size paper. This was used whenever making parts for the players and for MOST of the conducting scores; if the score was really big, we'd use tabloid size (11x17) in the the same weight / color. One thing also worth mentioning is tape. If you've got a two page score or part, you can tape that together with scotch tape, but one important trick is to put *horizontal* strips of tape at the top and bottom of the sheets along with a vertical strip down the center. The horizontal strips keep the vertical strip from tearing. For multiple page taped parts, we used cloth surgical tape which you can pick up at any drug store, though it does get expensive when you buy a lot of it.
Again , a thorough consideration and exellently produced video . What a treasure you are for our community ! This is a vitally important issue that seems to be beneath the average instructor's feeling to inform beyond the syllabus ' stated requirements . Yet when you turn in a score if it's not legible or fit the standard used by the receiving individual or group : problems ensue . Thankyou for providing a necessary solution for many of us without enough connections or enough gall to ask those so willing to correct us after said assignment is turned in .
00:00 OrchestrationOnline on Patreon 00:14 Title 00:26 What paper size should I use for an orchestral score and parts? 00:51 Standard large paper sizes 01:38 Parts 02:51 Paper weights 03:22 Staff size 04:10 Smaller paper sizes 04:52 Paper scaling 05:53 Printing your own scores 06:34 Do you really need to print yourself? 07:32 More observations 08:39 Wire vs. comb binding 09:43 Patrons & Credits
Another great video Thomas thank you. Im about to prepare parts for a woodwind quintet of a Beethoven piano piece, and this video came in the nick of time. Love all your videos and have learned so much keep up the good work
Wow .... ..simply mind blowing.... ...I am still trying to wrap my head around "not splitting the middle" error from a video I watch a few months ago. This guy is a gem that keeps giving. 😘
I only decrease the staff size as a last resort. What I will decrease if I can't see the lowest staves or the dynamics below the lowest staves is staff spacing(so the area between staves). At that point, if I find that dynamics are hard to see in full page view, I increase the paper size. This is how I get through formatting an orchestral score. I check the staves on the first page every time I make a major change to the score(partly because the staff spacing on the first page is ever so slightly larger than the other pages). Also, I have never had any horizontal issues. Even my shortest pages in terms of measures still have 4 measures unless I have a complex cadenza that takes up the full horizontal space.
Sibelius (as you recommend) comes with a standard 7 mm staff size. Altho the Major Orchestra Librarians' Association (MOLA) seems to recommend 7.5 staff size specially for strings because they share a stand. Do you use bigger staff sizes for the strings section ?
Actually, I've seen MOLA recommendations for 8.5 mm staff size for strings, but then you need a page size of 10X14. Not every orchestra has a copy machine that can handle huge parts. Here in New Zealand, string players commonly read 7.0-7.5 on A4 paper without any complaints - but of course it's nice to get bigger paper and staff sizes for any part if it's possible. For a developing composer dealing with semipro and regional orchestras at first, it usually isn't available.
@@OrchestrationOnline Hi, I know this comment was 3 years ago, but it's just not correct. MOLA recommends (and has recommended for the past 5+ years) the following in regards to Staff Size: "The most readable staff size for all instruments is 7.5 mm (measured from the bottom to the top of the staff). Although 7.0 mm may be readable for winds as they generally use their own stands, it is less so for strings because they share a stand. Anything smaller than 7.0 mm is unacceptable, and anything larger than 8.5 mm should be avoided."
Overall though, this video was excellent, and really went into great detail on some topics which might really help a self-publishing composer, or aspiring composer/musician. Good stuff.
@@russelallyn347 Thanks for your kind words about my video. My reply to Tiago was intended to say "as large as 8.5mm staff size." Not to say that size was the ideal, but that it was mentioned in the recommendations. But if you read my remark in context, it's more about the relevance of larger staff size to paper size rather than stating a hard and fast rule. As to sticking to ideal paper and staff size, the entire subject has been recently thrown into question by the increasing use of computer pads by composing and performing musicians. The past 5 recording sessions I was involved with had musicians using pads, sometimes with a trigger device to turn pages. These pads have screens that are widely varying in size, but they're usually smaller (though much sharper) than the average paper sheet. So the situation continues to evolve.
Luckily, you can get your large pages printed at places like office stores or at self-print/copy shops that have (oddly) been bought up by FedEx and UPS and integrated into their own facilities. Buying an expensive printer is not the only option, although it may be cost-effective if you do a lot of large format printing. You don't need a large format printer for parts, they can be taped together from normal sized paper for proofing. Once the changes are all dealt with, you can either photocopy the taped-together parts or print new ones, again at one of the same places you print the score. For binding, spiral is a better option than comb in most cases, and it looks more professional. Spinning the spiral into place by hand isn't that hard, you only need a machine to punch the holes in the pages. If you don't have a machine at all, you can still spiral bind if you're willing to clamp your pages into a jig and drill holes through the stack. That doesn't work with combs.
I have some issues with office stores - somehow they have different software than mine at home for opening PDF files. So things like harp diagrams, etc. look awkward when printed in store (not at home).
Hi everyone! Just to let you know that the information in this video about bookletting US Letter doesn't reflect the experience of North American Orchestra librarians. Most American and Canadian professional orchestra libraries can booklet 9"x12" pages 2-up on ARCH B; and 9.5"x13" pages 2-up on SUPER B/supertabloid.
Hi Thomas, which monitor you recommend to be able to clearly visualize scores and likewise to enter information in sibelius (or finale) and to be able to appreciate the page in all its extension. Some special brand?
How does a orchestra get ahold of the master score of a well known symphony and all the parts for it? For example how would they get the contrabasson part for Gustav Holsts planets?
Usually, an orchestra will own, loan, or rent a score and set of parts. Anyone can go and get scores and parts at IMSLP dot org, which can either be nice and clean or a total mess.
At least here in the US in 2022, it's getting harder and harder to get "odd" paper sizes ...even 20-lb 11x17" is becoming "special order". And many printers' paper suppliers won't sell to small purchasers. A local offset printer, book or litho shop is worth cultivating, they'll often cut-down paper in heavier weights ...for a price. As an Architect I self-print reams of 11x17", but I can't get anything heavier than 20-lb bond unless I buy a pallet's worth. The same for12x18" offset weight paper.
Thomas! A wonderful video - helpful in so many ways. You mention that librarians will print their own parts. I'm hesitant to have them do this because the PDF's I send can easily be shared with other parties. Do you recommend some kind of contract with the orchestra to avoid this? I was happy to see that orchestras are accepting 8.5x11 for parts now. There must be some holdouts in the big leagues... Thanks again for a great video.
Hi Daniel! I recommend not worrying too much about that. All you need to do is specify in your contract how many times the orchestra is allowed to perform your work. If they commissioned you, ask them how many performances of your work their commission covers. If this is a work-for-hire, though, then they essentially own the score and parts anyway. Probably the last thing you want to do is make a big issue over printing your own parts and insisting they be returned because you openly don't trust them. That will really poison your relationship with orchestra management.
When I rent parts out to orchestras, I specify how many times the orchestra may share my work, and I often allow the orchestra to continue to keep a copy in their vaults after that for future potential performances (for which they'll pay an additional rental fee). This will help them to have a copy of bowed parts on hand, which saves a huge amount of hassle for the orchestra librarian and string section principals. It also helps them to make a decision to continue to programme the work from that point onwards. One of my pieces here in New Zealand has been performed over a dozen times, several times per orchestra. It's to my advantage that copies of parts and score are in several libraries. I'm at no risk of an unauthorised performance.
Finally, as to the big leagues - if you mean world-class orchestras, I've sent A4 and Letter-sized parts to orchestras like Moscow PO, Vancouver SO, New Zealand SO, and many other top-of-the-line orchestras without any complaints. Don't worry about it unless a publisher is involved and for some reason they want a bigger paper size.
@@OrchestrationOnline Yes, I see. I did have an uncomfortable time when i was guest conducting and I sent along pdfs for 4 arrangements that i had done specifically for the gig but didn't charge for them. They printed them out but then refused to return them. I asked then to be paid for the arrangements - no deal. Oops. then, as you said, no return engagements. I wish we had had this discussion earlier... thanks for the advice.
You're not wrong. Even though I'm American, I find myself setting paper sizes to A3 and B4 for scores, A4 for parts. I don't know if this is actually a good idea though.
Thanks Thomas. This is a thing I was wondering about for a long time already. Looking forward to a video on part preparing.
When I worked at the Cincinnati Symphony, we used 80 lb. "Natural" color paper, specially cut to 10" x 14" which is roughly equivalent to B4 size paper. This was used whenever making parts for the players and for MOST of the conducting scores; if the score was really big, we'd use tabloid size (11x17) in the the same weight / color.
One thing also worth mentioning is tape. If you've got a two page score or part, you can tape that together with scotch tape, but one important trick is to put *horizontal* strips of tape at the top and bottom of the sheets along with a vertical strip down the center. The horizontal strips keep the vertical strip from tearing.
For multiple page taped parts, we used cloth surgical tape which you can pick up at any drug store, though it does get expensive when you buy a lot of it.
willcwhite Did you receive the score and parts via .pdf then? Or was this when you needed more copies?
Both
willcwhite k;; n
Again , a thorough consideration and exellently produced video . What a treasure you are for our community ! This is a vitally important issue that seems to be beneath the average instructor's feeling to inform beyond the syllabus ' stated requirements . Yet when you turn in a score if it's not legible or fit the standard used by the receiving individual or group : problems ensue . Thankyou for providing a necessary solution for many of us without enough connections or enough gall to ask those so willing to correct us after said assignment is turned in .
You're very kind! :)
00:00 OrchestrationOnline on Patreon
00:14 Title
00:26 What paper size should I use for an orchestral score and parts?
00:51 Standard large paper sizes
01:38 Parts
02:51 Paper weights
03:22 Staff size
04:10 Smaller paper sizes
04:52 Paper scaling
05:53 Printing your own scores
06:34 Do you really need to print yourself?
07:32 More observations
08:39 Wire vs. comb binding
09:43 Patrons & Credits
Thomas, THANK YOU for your thorough explanation. ♥
Thomas you helped me and I got large papers and alsi printed it out.Thanks man
Another great video Thomas thank you. Im about to prepare parts for a woodwind quintet of a Beethoven piano piece, and this video came in the nick of time. Love all your videos and have learned so much keep up the good work
Wow ....
..simply mind blowing....
...I am still trying to wrap my head around "not splitting the middle" error from a video I watch a few months ago.
This guy is a gem that keeps giving. 😘
I only decrease the staff size as a last resort. What I will decrease if I can't see the lowest staves or the dynamics below the lowest staves is staff spacing(so the area between staves). At that point, if I find that dynamics are hard to see in full page view, I increase the paper size. This is how I get through formatting an orchestral score. I check the staves on the first page every time I make a major change to the score(partly because the staff spacing on the first page is ever so slightly larger than the other pages). Also, I have never had any horizontal issues. Even my shortest pages in terms of measures still have 4 measures unless I have a complex cadenza that takes up the full horizontal space.
Damn, this is thorough.
This is a great video, thank you for sharing this information....Peace! 🎼❤
Sibelius (as you recommend) comes with a standard 7 mm staff size. Altho the Major Orchestra Librarians' Association (MOLA) seems to recommend 7.5 staff size specially for strings because they share a stand. Do you use bigger staff sizes for the strings section ?
Actually, I've seen MOLA recommendations for 8.5 mm staff size for strings, but then you need a page size of 10X14. Not every orchestra has a copy machine that can handle huge parts. Here in New Zealand, string players commonly read 7.0-7.5 on A4 paper without any complaints - but of course it's nice to get bigger paper and staff sizes for any part if it's possible. For a developing composer dealing with semipro and regional orchestras at first, it usually isn't available.
@@OrchestrationOnline Hi, I know this comment was 3 years ago, but it's just not correct. MOLA recommends (and has recommended for the past 5+ years) the following in regards to Staff Size: "The most readable staff size for all instruments is 7.5 mm (measured from the bottom to the top
of the staff). Although 7.0 mm may be readable for winds as they generally use their own stands, it is less so for strings because they share a stand. Anything smaller than 7.0 mm is unacceptable, and anything larger than 8.5 mm should be avoided."
Overall though, this video was excellent, and really went into great detail on some topics which might really help a self-publishing composer, or aspiring composer/musician. Good stuff.
@@russelallyn347 Thanks for your kind words about my video. My reply to Tiago was intended to say "as large as 8.5mm staff size." Not to say that size was the ideal, but that it was mentioned in the recommendations. But if you read my remark in context, it's more about the relevance of larger staff size to paper size rather than stating a hard and fast rule. As to sticking to ideal paper and staff size, the entire subject has been recently thrown into question by the increasing use of computer pads by composing and performing musicians. The past 5 recording sessions I was involved with had musicians using pads, sometimes with a trigger device to turn pages. These pads have screens that are widely varying in size, but they're usually smaller (though much sharper) than the average paper sheet. So the situation continues to evolve.
Luckily, you can get your large pages printed at places like office stores or at self-print/copy shops that have (oddly) been bought up by FedEx and UPS and integrated into their own facilities. Buying an expensive printer is not the only option, although it may be cost-effective if you do a lot of large format printing. You don't need a large format printer for parts, they can be taped together from normal sized paper for proofing. Once the changes are all dealt with, you can either photocopy the taped-together parts or print new ones, again at one of the same places you print the score.
For binding, spiral is a better option than comb in most cases, and it looks more professional. Spinning the spiral into place by hand isn't that hard, you only need a machine to punch the holes in the pages. If you don't have a machine at all, you can still spiral bind if you're willing to clamp your pages into a jig and drill holes through the stack. That doesn't work with combs.
I have some issues with office stores - somehow they have different software than mine at home for opening PDF files. So things like harp diagrams, etc. look awkward when printed in store (not at home).
Someday the standard size will be the screen of an IPad
Someday has arrived. I'm seeing the use of computer pads constantly in readings and recordings nowadays.
Hi everyone! Just to let you know that the information in this video about bookletting US Letter doesn't reflect the experience of North American Orchestra librarians. Most American and Canadian professional orchestra libraries can booklet 9"x12" pages 2-up on ARCH B; and 9.5"x13" pages 2-up on SUPER B/supertabloid.
Hi Thomas, which monitor you recommend to be able to clearly visualize scores and likewise to enter information in sibelius (or finale) and to be able to appreciate the page in all its extension. Some special brand?
Hi Nico! I currently use a 4K screen, which has enough height to see a whole score page. No special brand, there are a lot of them out there.
How does a orchestra get ahold of the master score of a well known symphony and all the parts for it? For example how would they get the contrabasson part for Gustav Holsts planets?
Usually, an orchestra will own, loan, or rent a score and set of parts. Anyone can go and get scores and parts at IMSLP dot org, which can either be nice and clean or a total mess.
Love the CPE Bach!
At least here in the US in 2022, it's getting harder and harder to get "odd" paper sizes ...even 20-lb 11x17" is becoming "special order". And many printers' paper suppliers won't sell to small purchasers. A local offset printer, book or litho shop is worth cultivating, they'll often cut-down paper in heavier weights ...for a price.
As an Architect I self-print reams of 11x17", but I can't get anything heavier than 20-lb bond unless I buy a pallet's worth. The same for12x18" offset weight paper.
Thomas! A wonderful video - helpful in so many ways. You mention that librarians will print their own parts. I'm hesitant to have them do this because the PDF's I send can easily be shared with other parties. Do you recommend some kind of contract with the orchestra to avoid this? I was happy to see that orchestras are accepting 8.5x11 for parts now. There must be some holdouts in the big leagues... Thanks again for a great video.
Hi Daniel! I recommend not worrying too much about that. All you need to do is specify in your contract how many times the orchestra is allowed to perform your work. If they commissioned you, ask them how many performances of your work their commission covers. If this is a work-for-hire, though, then they essentially own the score and parts anyway. Probably the last thing you want to do is make a big issue over printing your own parts and insisting they be returned because you openly don't trust them. That will really poison your relationship with orchestra management.
When I rent parts out to orchestras, I specify how many times the orchestra may share my work, and I often allow the orchestra to continue to keep a copy in their vaults after that for future potential performances (for which they'll pay an additional rental fee). This will help them to have a copy of bowed parts on hand, which saves a huge amount of hassle for the orchestra librarian and string section principals. It also helps them to make a decision to continue to programme the work from that point onwards. One of my pieces here in New Zealand has been performed over a dozen times, several times per orchestra. It's to my advantage that copies of parts and score are in several libraries. I'm at no risk of an unauthorised performance.
Finally, as to the big leagues - if you mean world-class orchestras, I've sent A4 and Letter-sized parts to orchestras like Moscow PO, Vancouver SO, New Zealand SO, and many other top-of-the-line orchestras without any complaints. Don't worry about it unless a publisher is involved and for some reason they want a bigger paper size.
@@OrchestrationOnline Yes, I see. I did have an uncomfortable time when i was guest conducting and I sent along pdfs for 4 arrangements that i had done specifically for the gig but didn't charge for them. They printed them out but then refused to return them. I asked then to be paid for the arrangements - no deal. Oops. then, as you said, no return engagements. I wish we had had this discussion earlier... thanks for the advice.
@@OrchestrationOnline great. thanks
In other news, marching band music is usually oriented in landscape so it can fit in flip folders
Very very useful!!!
Thank you
It may be my European eye, but I find the American paper sizes too narrow. Great videos though!
You're not wrong. Even though I'm American, I find myself setting paper sizes to A3 and B4 for scores, A4 for parts. I don't know if this is actually a good idea though.
Fergus McGregor it’s not the golden ratio. It’s just root 2.
please enable subtitles! :) I read english better than I hear it.
Helpful hint: I always lower the speed of videos like this. It helps my comprehension. Good luck, Fireonist