The "Formless Attainments" of Early Buddhist Meditation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 25 มิ.ย. 2024
- What are the formless attainments of early Buddhist meditation? We'll look at these deep states of absorption. First we'll look at their history, how the Buddha first encountered them and where they appear to have arisen from, then we'll turn to the practice as outlined in the early texts as well as some later material.
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✅ Books mentioned:
Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli (trans.), Visuddhimagga, The Path of Purification - amzn.to/31Ecd7s
Alex Wynne, The Origin of Buddhist Meditation - amzn.to/31HNzSU
✅ Videos mentioned:
Is Deep Meditative Absorption (Jhana) Necessary for Enlightenment? - • Is Deep Meditative Abs...
Deep Meditation in Buddhism Playlist (the Jhānas) - • Deep Meditation in Bud...
Emptiness in Buddhism: Early Practice - • Emptiness in Buddhism:...
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/mn26/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn52/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/an11.16/en/s...
suttacentral.net/mn39/en/sujato
suttacentral.net/mn77/en/bodhi
suttacentral.net/an10.29/en/b...
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00:00 Intro
00:53 Āḷāra Kālāma
02:21 Uddaka Rāmaputta
05:15 Brahminic meditations influenced by the early Upaniṣads (Alex Wynne)
07:59 Gotama leaves them behind and becomes the Buddha
09:23 Why these attainments are “formless”
11:54 The first formless attainment
13:52 Arriving at the first formless attainment; kasiṇas
18:57 The second formless attainment
20:36 The third formless attainment; nothingness vs. emptiness
25:04 The fourth formless attainment
28:36 Visuddhimagga’s two similes
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Did you know, Doug, that you do not only produce the best Dharma videos I've ever watched, but also provide the best info boxes?! Now you do! 😋😁🙏😊
😄😄 Yes some of them take a bit of work!
@@DougsDharma
I can well believe it! 😅 But the work is really worth it! Extremely helpful! 🙏🙏🙏
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@@DougsDharma th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
I find it interesting that in your jhana video you emphasize that bodily awareness is not lost while practicing, yet in this video you appeal to the Visuddhimagga to detail the practice of the Formless Attainments. In the Visuddhimagga, absorption in the jhanas is without bodily awareness. I think this is primarily because the object used, at least with respect to absorption based on the breath, is the nimitta. Other traditions have the practitioner focus on the breath until piti (joy) and sukha (contentment/happiness) arise, and then the attention is switched to these sensations of piti and sukha. In the Visuddhimagga style jhana practice, you stay with the sensation of the breath until a light appears in the mind, the nimitta, and you cultivate and grow the nimitta to become larger and brighter until you are pulled into the absorption. You do not switch your attention to the sensations of piti and sukha. It should also be noted that the term "kaya" which means body, can be used to denote the physical body or an aggregation of things. This distinction, I believe has led to a lot confusion and debate about what constitutes jhana as kaya can refer to the aggregate of experiential elements like the field of awareness.
The deeper jhanas associated with the Visuddhimaga are linked, by modern practitioners, to the supernatural powers like past life recall and astral projection. To me that lends credibility to this depth of absorption being what the Buddha was talking about in the suttas. Though I like Daniel Ingrahms take on the subject; jhana occurs in degrees. That maybe the most accurate assessment based on the suttas as some suttas seem to indicate a lighter jhana with sense awareness and some a very deep jhana with no awareness of the body. There is the example of the Buddha meditating in jhana so deeply that he did not hear a thunder storm where lightening killed a man ( I think that is what it was, but don't quote me).
These states are not impossible to attain or only for a select few. I have seen the uggahanimitta (learning sign or gross nimitta) in my daily practice when my practice has been consistent and dedicated. I think most people can reach some level of success in deeper absorption under retreat conditions. Most people, however, will not be willing to spend the required time (10+ hours a day) to develop this level of concentration in a retreat setting, even though it is an extremely pleasant and enjoyable process. I think many are just intimidated by the time commitment even though they are capable of success.
Thanks for reading my meditation geek ramblings. I would appreciate your input and perspective on the above. I enjoy the scholarly work of your videos. Please, keep them coming.
Sure James! I usually don't prefer to rely on the Visuddhimagga since it's not an early text by any means, but there is so little information about the formless attainments in the suttas I turned there instead. At least it may give us some indication of the practice. Though of course it's impossible to say for sure how or whether it accurately reflects what was going on in the Buddha's day. (I have a separate video BTW on how deep meditative absorption is supposed to get in early Buddhism: th-cam.com/video/2DotdUIO8iM/w-d-xo.html ).
@@DougsDharma Doug, thanks for the reply. I will check out the video.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
Your wisdom and deep comprehension, which you share so eloquently and with great context and references, always amazes me. Thank you Doug.
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Your channel should be reached to millions viewers.
I like your teaching method Doug. I don't understand parli text very well. I do now regret that I did not learn it from my grandparents.
Thanks so much! 🙏😊
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
I agree!
Thank you Doug, perfect
Glad you found it useful, Jason!
Such an interesting presentation of a lesser knows topic in Buddhism; thanks for creating this video, Doug.
My pleasure youxine, thanks for your comment! 🙏
Love this guy!
🙏😊
Your discussions are some of the best I’ve heard.
Thanks Michael, very kind of you.
@@DougsDharma not at all. Credit where due. It’s exciting to see this western (American?) Buddhism emerging.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
Excellent video but you have done a great job in articulating this 4 states so well that they now fall again into the realm of perception. But "The STATE" is something which cannot be perceptualized or articulated so it needs to be experienced. Thanks for your videos
Yes, well certainly the fourth formless attainment cannot be perceived properly. The other three do fall into the realm of perception.
More Visuddhimagga!
The last three installments on the rupa jhanas, and this one on the formless attainments, are much appreciated, and shall take their place in my ''favorites'' cache. I've read books on the jhanas and felt that I'd never get there. I am even more sure of that, these many years latter!! But that affects my pleasure in learning about them, not in the least. Maybe it is the ''age'' of Kali Yuga, or maybe it is my failures in the diligent practice of sila, but it is certainly a pleasure. thank you!
You're very welcome as always Smitty! 🙏
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So as perceived, the first 3 meditations involve an act ( volition) The meditation on neither perception or non perception require the will to act to be abandoned.
Excellent content...
Thanks, much appreciated. 🙏😊
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
When you first said Space Kasina I heard Space Casino and that sounded really fun.
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Doug, this is very interesting and practitioners may find it useful. My own experience of the “formless attainments” started at the age of 15 yrs when I earnestly asked the question “Who am I?”.
OK! 🙏
Ayyy, the perfect topic to listen to after an all-nighter :D
😄 Glad to hear it, Egod! Now get some rest.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
Doug, love your channel, I was wondering if you did a video on what you suggest we do for a good daily home Buddhist practice?
Thanks Mike! Yes I have a video like that, it's here: th-cam.com/video/ncECq2tcHnc/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
The Heart Sutra, extracted from the Prajnaparamita, is a list of such neither this nor not this descriptions, as in the description of the fourth formless attainment naiva samjna nasamjna... I agree that there does seem to be a link between the first two and the krtsna/kasina list, the last two of which are akasa and vijnana (space and "consciousness").
Hey Doug, thanks for kicking off this discussion of the formless or Arupa attainments. For a start I believe that it might be worthwhile looking at some terms definitions and also the reason (or lack of reason)for the meditative "jump" to the the third and fourth Arupa attainments that seems to describe the meditative trajectory that the Bodhisatta historically, seems to take. This is supremely interesting due to the fact that the fourth Rupa Jhana seems to be displaying the "next exit sign" to the sphere of boundless space. Put another way, upekkha is the reconciliation of opposites plus cittekaggata, (one pointedness)that infers the entry to boundless space. Makes sense to me at least Doug!
The other intriguing thing is the terms definition for rupa (in the 5 khandas) is corporeality plus nama. With the four Jhanas the word rupa actually means fine materiality. Therefore rupa cannot mean the body, per se, but the manifestation of elements into a form or mold in the physical world. eg duck, cat, fish, human being etc.corporeality. When the meditative practitioner enters the first jhana, the nama is now manifesting through a spatial or fine material elements form "body". Enough for today Doug, I will return to the other question tomorrow.
Interesting thoughts John, but hard to say for sure because none of this is explained adequately in the early texts.
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They kind of unfold, more than being accomplished. But they are fuzzy IMHO. Not all suttas talk about 4+4+1. I know at least one that only talks about 4. And I tend to agree with that. I think there was a heavy influence to be pedantic and authoritative instead of practical. I agree with your inferences about the 2 teachers + S of nothingness + SNPNNP. I don't remember them being explicit. Otherwise, this was a truly excellent overview 🙂👍 very impressive, because it isn't so easy to understand from the suttas alone.
🙏😊
I think it’s very interesting to here of all the systems and structures for all the diffèrent meditations in a chronological time line. I only know meditation from doing it intuitively but physical body changes in chakra activity lock meditation into the fabric of the body. This is active in the body day and night asleep or awake it’s constant. I would imagine the universe must have opened Gautama’s body too so the body stills the mind and then the mind can disappears. The four pillars of time drop out and reality of timelessness infinite and nothingness where nothing is all. Heart floods being as body is no body only love energy. The activator is not a person or a system it is some kind of direction cast over the body by the universe. This energetic karmic connection is inside everyone. All things originate from the original prana energy. This energy is identified in all cultures. Chi, life force I think every culture has a name For it.
I think you did a video once where you mentioned how the Buddha experienced perceiving Nimitta (specifically light and/or visual hallucinations) in the course of reaching some of the formless jhanas. I recently began doing some research on lucid dreaming and the hypnagogic states, and someone described an experience that seemed exactly like seeing Nimitta. When I was younger I had a meditation experience where I accidentally stumbled upon Nimitta. I was seeing and watching light patterns on the back of my closed eyelids, when suddenly I feel into a trance and for a split second became aware of a sort of emptiness, a void? I wasn't expecting it because I never had a teacher or training. So naturally I snapped awake very quickly because it was awfully startling.
For years I've been obsessed with recreating that experience, telling myself that I'm not going to freak out and ruin whatever progress I am on. I'm thinking that perhaps if I want to recreate that experience I'd be better off training myself to lucid dream.
But if my understanding is right, then essentially what I should try to do is meditate while in a lucid dream. Essentially, lucid dreamers claim to be able to manifest whatever they want in their dreams. Perhaps the Buddha thought, while an interesting trick, it wasn't what he was looking for.
I think in Vedic terms they call the states Turiya (equivalent to lucid dreaming?) and Turiyatita (witnessing 'the void', eventually leading to liberation and eventual union with Brahma?).
My line of thinking is, the Buddha arrived at Turiyatita, and was disappointed to find that he didn't remain 'liberated'. He came back to his normal state of consciousness. In my own experience I can say, I have felt quite refreshed after going very deep in mediation, and I felt this blissful afterglow. But that afterglow wears off and I go back to Duḥkha.
I think there is a certain state reached in meditation where insights come very easily, but I don't always know whether or not those insights are always the official insights that the Buddha arrived at and subsequently taught as the Dharma. I generally arrive at insights that may pertain to my life or something that has been of interest to me.
Perhaps if one has a burning question or problem they are trying to resolve, then an insight may come that sheds light on that question or problem. So, since the Buddha was struggling with the problem of human suffering, his insights where specifically pertinent to that.
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Hey Doug. I was wondering if you could share a few words on the passing of Thich Nhat Hanh. I was wondering if there was a book of his that you read that you would recommend to everyone? Thank you and great video as always. 🙏
Breathe, you’re alive. The sutta on the full awareness of breathing.
Sure, Chill. I put in a few words over on Twitter and Facebook, as well as in a video today over on Patreon. Thich Nhat Hanh was a wonderful teacher and human being, who did a lot of good for the world. I do love his Miracle of Mindfulness book, and would recommend it unreservedly.
@@DougsDharma I'll pick up that book. Thank you Doug.
@@DougsDharma I am totally in agreement with Doug. The miracle of mindfulness has changed my life.
You are going to talk about next on 'Cessation of feeling', claimed to be only attainable by Non-returners and Arahants who are well-versed in both concentration and insight meditation 🙏☸
Yes that will be my next one. 😊
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
We could say the the base of infinite consciousness is the dropping off, or the vanishing of, the idea itself of any 'I, me, mine' thing, being that that is a dependently originated construct and nothing more...
What is this that happened to me on the seventh day of my vipassana meditation retreat.
As I was sitting for the afternoon meditation, my breathing slow way down and then it stop. Then I no longer have any feeling in my toes and it starts to spread upward until it cover my whole body ending on top of my head. It’s like someone took an eraser and slowly erase my body bit by bit.
Then I heard a “pop” and it’s like an egg bursted on top of my head and around my body, then my consciousness/awareness was free. Now my awareness is in everything, no longer are there any boundaries. I’m aware that my awareness is in the dust particles flowing on the top corner of the room. I’m also the room, the sitting cushions, the floor, everything. Everything slowed way down. Everything has my consciousness and my consciousness is in everything. Then I didn’t know what to do next. I’ve been using my breath as a meditation focus but now there is no breath and no body. At least there are no feelings of the body. Then I kind of panic and open my eyes to see if my body really has physically disappeared and of course it wasn’t. It is still there but now I’m back to my old meditation self 😅. I subtracted some minutes in the beginning of the meditation and I figured that I must have been in that state for about 10 minutes.
Can someone with more experience please explain what had happened to me?
I tried to ask various meditation teachers (Buddhist and non-Buddhist) and they don’t seemed to know what’s going on.
I asked my meditation teacher at that same retreat which is Sayadaw U Pandita and he said don’t pay too much attention to it just continue to practice. He also commented more on it but the English translator was a young 16 years old girl and she couldn’t understand what he was trying to say to me. Oh well.
Interesting! Yes if your meditation teachers can't explain it, I'd be hard pressed to do so! But I think your meditation teacher was probably right, don't pay too much attention to it, and just continue to practice.
@@DougsDharma
Thank you for replying to my question Doug.
I was just wondering as to your knowledge about these states that if you heard of anything similar to this. It’s just interesting to know.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
We could say that the base of infinite space is the dropping off, or vanishing, of the perception of the usual object and subject apparent relationship...
Perhaps so, although some find that sort of experience in for example the fourth jhāna.
If you don't mind me asking, What do you do for a daily sitting meditation practice Doug?
Ah, I've discussed this in several different videos I think ... I do a half-hour a day of mindfulness meditation, with some group meditations when I can.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
The attainments should come by themselves with our object of concentration on the specific Jhana in which the person is. For instance, if one is in the second formless attainment we should observe it dispassionately, without grasping to it. Then the third formlessness attainment will come. The jhanas will not come just by switching our attention to it. Unless a person is a highly skilled meditator, then he/she could move from one Jhana to the next at will.
Is there a social media community focused on the Jhanas? I'd love to join. I've seen some communities on Discord but they're either not active or do not have that much interest in the Jhanas.
I'm not sure! Maybe someone else knows and can answer.
th-cam.com/video/yzMYAfH40gA/w-d-xo.html
My apologies Doug . I stumbled in my attempt to explain the transition from The Fourth Rupa Jhana, to the first Arupa attainment of Boundless space. With the cessation of equanimity(fourth Jhana) cittekaggata becomes the next higher (remainder)refinement of awareness, ie the synonym of boundless space. Put another way, one pointedness is no longer "constrained" by equanimity, thus becomes boundless. One pointedness everywhere, so to speak!
Interesting thoughts, thanks John.
@@DougsDharma Thanks Doug, these attainments are right at the limits of expression and comprehension.. Thanks for your efforts.
More kasinas!
I would love to be able to talk to somebody that has reached these states. I have reached the first two and it was before I even knew what they were and afterwards when I was going towards like non-existence I was scared and I backed out. It's a regret I have to live with but it gives me hope that I've already been there and I can achieve it again. Is this like a common thing? It felt like once I kept going that there was no returning for me that I was going to leave forever and I felt like that meant my body dying.
The weird thing is is that it happened almost 2 years ago and until this past week I haven't put it together and it's literally giving me chills because somebody else's experienced what I have and I thought I was crazy.
It was about a year later I began to experience what I thought was going to be a similar experience. But I had these doubts and I was scared. So it ended up not being the best experience but I took it as a learning experience that I needed to work on myself and practice more mindfulness, and not have doubts about my character. It felt like i didnt believe that i was good enough to be there, and i wouldnt give in.
I have a similar experiences.that at some point fear arises. I think of it as my ego dissolving and crying for help. If you can see it for what it is and let go, we do not die but are realizing for our self a so far unknown state of consciousness. Let go and discover.
s
Can you do a video about Buddhist cosmology? I've heard that according to Buddhism the Universe have had many cycles. If you already have done a video about this topic can you put the link?
Not only Buddhism even Hinduism - basically Eastern philosophy. But the Lord Buddha had the ability to zoom in and zoom out cosmological perspective than anyone else. According to Buddhism, there is no begging or end to the Universe. It's a cyclic phenomena with apocalypses as intermission of the the proverbial cosmic show. Not linear approach.
Yes I did a video on the three realms of existence awhile back: th-cam.com/video/JEwQvlfMUf8/w-d-xo.html
@@osanda2313 yes time and space itself has no beginning and end in Buddhism but individual itself has an end in Buddhism that is buddha state of consciousness.
@@user-Void-Star Like realizing the causes for becoming and rebirth and cutting them off entirely, I guess.
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Doug, just out of curiosity, is it considered that the people such as Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta were actual people as opposed to later embellishments? The reason I ask is that there is an obvious parallel between the Gotama’s deepening attainments and the increasing levels of responsibility that he is asked to assume but which he declines. It could just be a ‘coincidence’ or it could be part of the way that those telling the story are adding a different dimension to the narrative. Are there any views on this?
It's impossible to say for sure, but Alex Wynne has argued that they are likely to be real people, and I'm inclined to believe that. Of course, even so it wouldn't mean that every aspect of their stories is historical.
@@DougsDharma Thank you for taking the time to reply Doug. Appreciated.
The Buddha had some teachers before he began partaking in the rigorous asceticism, what were these teachings they gave him, the three. I need to know, as I too have had such. If you want to know, just ask me, I just want to know in the Buddhist language. Thanks
His two meditation teachers were Āḷāra Kālāma and Uddaka Rāmaputta.
is the absence of the body, i.e. not feeling it, a clear sign of the fifth jhana or higher?
This is debated. Some jhāna practitioners claim one doesn't feel the body in any jhāna.
Dear friends, when your mind is so absorbed to your object of meditation (whatever it is), can it be purified?
That absorption is a sort of (temporary) purification. It can help us on the path if it’s held properly.
@@DougsDharma Gotama can not do so. Why? Because when we exercises focus and concentration (to our choosen object of meditation), we will reach the point of absorption. This point supposedly what Buddhagosa called upacara samaddhi.
Then our mind will be more and more absorp and become one with the object of meditation. All Jhana stages can be achieved up to what Gotama and Rama achieved, neither perception nor non perception. But it can go no more. It is a dead end. Never will it will go into cessation/nirodha with this method. That’s is the reason Gotama got away with it.
Simple test:
We can observe there is no changes in behavior. All impurity of minds (dosa lobha and moha) will be back when we are not meditating.
This leads Gotama to try another way as ascetic.
Then Gotama also gave up his austere practices in the brink of dead.
So, what is really his meditation method? The way that he declare will lead us to Nibbana, to the cessation of the taints (lobha dosa moha)?
His meditation method is 24/7 practice that he called Ariya Atthangika magga.
First step (samma ditthi) it to realize the problem. What is the problem? Dukkha
Second step (samma sankapa) is to determine the game plan to solve that problem
Third, forth and fifth step are all exercises to restrain verbal and bodily conducts (vaci and kaya). The lowest excercises that we undertake is called Pancasila.
But that is not enough. Now we need to deal with mind.
Step sixth is cultivation of minds. To let go all arising taints and to make sure non arising of future taints. To cultivate all current and future wholesome state of mind.
Step seventh is to start to look inward. This exercise is to cultivate the ability of the mind to let go of its impurity and disturbances. These is like peeling onion. Layer by layer all our impurities need to be let go. The grossest things is what we call panca Niravana, when this subsided then we start the Jhana Journey. Still it is peeling off layer by layer disturbances of minds. Vittaka vicara is let go in the first jhana, then piti, then sukkha, then ekagata.
8th step is the cultivation of samadhi. This is what satta bojjanga is all about.
Satta bojjhanga start with sati (step 7), dhamma vicayo/analysis of experience, viriya/energy, piti, passadhi, samaddhi and upekkha.
Upekkha is the development of Brahma Vihara (metta > karuna > mudita > upekkha). In Jhana 4, we have very strong upekkha (collectedness of the minds). Then 1 by 1, the realization is noticed: infinity of the space, infinity of the mind, nothingness when mind look into mind, the connection between perception and cognition is off (neither perception nor non perception).
Are we done? Not yet.
This final frontier, the treshold, when mind switch off can not be done when mind is absorbed to the of meditation.
This threshold can only be crossed by relaxation! Then the mind ceased. We supposedly experiencing what in term sanna vedayita Nirodha aka Nibbana.
When the mind reboots, we will see by ourselves that link of paticca samupada (all link from avijja/insentience up to sokaparideva dukkha). Crossing this point of no return, then you are an ariya now.
Is it possible to meditate on form, and overtime as you go deeper and deeper, naturally on its own it turns into formless?
I can't say for sure, but that isn't a technique mentioned in the early texts.
@@DougsDharma thanks. Also just one more question, is it possible to enter and even stay in this state of nirvana while still having lustful desires? Like not during your meditation your not thinking about any lustful desires, but then when you come out of it you do think about it at times. I just feel like out of all the things I’m willing to drop, lust is one of the things idk if I can drop.
Couldn’t it be said that the buddhas first teacher was right that jhana does lead to liberation?
You mean Alara Kalama? He taught one of the formless attainments, not jhana. That said, yes one could argue that he was right in a sense, though the state itself is not that of liberation, so to that extent he wasn't accurate. That is, he was right in that the state can be *useful* to us in reaching liberation.
@@DougsDharma I mean that jhana is a path to insight in and of it’s self
Damn it talk about paranormal powers more!
Formless attainment
We+mind
It will attain formless Brahmin abodes.
The life span is so long because there is no aggregate and only have mind.
There are four Formless Brahmins abodes.
If you mean the Brahmavihāras, they are understood to be different meditative attainments than the formless attainments. I've done videos on them as well.
Formless realms are Four realms. Yeah 🙏🙏🙏
Two teachers of Buddha are now in Formless realms. They arrived formless Brahmin realms, finding Nibbana.
WHy in english its Brahman, when in Sanskrit it is pronounced as Brahma.
Well these are different words with slightly different concepts. Brahman is the underlying reality, Brahma is the deity. Depending on how one views them, they can be seen as identical or as different.
Upanishad 🤣🤣🤣🤣! These were written by Brahmins much later after Buddha's death. These Iranian Aryan Brahmans weren't achieving that Buddhahood before Buddha. Don't preach lies,dear White Scholar Sir..Humble Request from a Non Brahman
You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about, and are also racist.
@@trentw.3566 Don't support Brahmins. They consider Whites as untouchable
Half baked knowledge