Differences Between Early Buddhism and Theravada: an Essay By Bhante Sujato
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ค. 2024
- There seem to have been differences between Theravāda belief and practice and that found in early Buddhism, however figuring this all out is a matter of some debate and controversy. Translator and scholar Bhikkhu Sujato has written an essay enumerating some key differences he sees. I'll go through six of the more interesting ones.
*** Recorded before our house fire. See: • Gutted by Fire
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✅Videos mentioned:
History of Theravada Buddhism: Very Old and Very New -- • History of Theravada B...
What Is the Pali Canon of Buddhism? -- • What Is the Pali Canon...
Do We Need Pali? -- • Do We Need Pali?
Devotion in Early Buddhism -- • Devotion in Early Budd...
Is Deep Meditative Absorption (Jhana) Necessary for Enlightenment? -- • Is Deep Meditative Abs...
Is the Mind Luminous? -- • Is the Mind Luminous?
The Controversy Over Nuns (Bhikkhuni) in Buddhism -- • The Controversy Over N...
✅Bhikkhu Sujato's essay (and associated discussion thread):
discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
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00:00 Intro
01:48 Controversies
03:14 Bhikkhu Sujato’s role
05:42 1. Authorship of the abhidhamma
08:13 2. Linguistic essentialism
09:43 3. Devotion vs. meditation in practice
11:25 4. “Dry insight” and nirvana
15:48 5. The “radiant mind”
17:50 6. Women’s role in the Buddhist sangha
19:55 Bhikkhu Sujato’s paper as a first draft
Photo of Bhikkhu Sujato courtesy of sasana.pl on Wikimedia: commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...
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I truly appreciate all of the research and hard work you do, as well as your capacity as an orator,
To consider you accomplish this on your own is a feat in it of itself, thank you!
Sadhu sadhu
Ah, but I depend on so many other scholars and practitioners such as Bhikkhu Sujato himself ... 😊🙏
@@DougsDharma indubitably my wise friend, but without your efforts I would not receive in the way that I have. For that, you have my gratitude and respect.
Additionally so do they.
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
@@monotheist.. why worry what other people believe? Especially if it makes them better as people by believing it.
Hey Doug, awesome talk!
Thanks so much Bhante for watching and letting me know, and for all your diligent work, including this paper, of course! 🙏🙏🙏
I love Early Buddhism due to its pragmatism and down-to-earth approach. This video (and Bhante Sujato's essay) corroborate my love... 😁😉
😊🙏
🙏😊
Yes and humble
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
@@monotheist.. do you believe you've presented at least a single sound argument for us to listen to? Because I don't believe you did. And you're lying regarding lack of errors in the Quran, which I'm not surprised.
@@monotheist.. What a load of crap.
Glad you are posting new videos again. Thanks.
Happy to get back into it, more to come! 🙂
Hey, Doug! This was super ineresting! I've definitely bookmarked the essay to read later. Thanks so much for sharing this! Hope you and your wife are doing well and that things with the house are going as smoothly as possible.
My pleasure! 🙏😊
My meditation teacher follows the Theravada tradition. He does ackowledge the jhanas, but tells us that the focus is on satipatthana, mindful observation of the body, sensation, feeling, liking/disliking, thoughts, dhammas (sets of reality). Just adding my personal experience with the theravada tradition about the jhana, if it may be useful.
Yes, that's a pretty common way to teach in the contemporary Insight community nowadays. Thanks!
IMO, we could avoid a lot of confusion if we agreed to define "enlightenment" as "attaining a radiant mind": it makes sense as a metaphor and explains why thinking of Buddha as "the enlightened one" (as discussed in another video) makes sense because of the radiant mind he attained through the jhanas. Nibbana would be something different, although related ; as someone having achieved Nibbana, the Buddha's proper title is "Tathāgata" (gone for good, gone definitely), as Doug explained in the previous video: two titles for two different attainments
@@ramaraksha01 You can have whatever opinion you want about Buddhism or anything else. However, as a reply to my comment, your answer is totally irrelevant
@@ramaraksha01 Who said I'm a Buddhist?
@@thetruthseeker5448 :-D I'm a Shudra as well, or maybe a Pariah?
@@thetruthseeker5448 To be serious: I respect Hindutva (minus the castes) but certainly not someone who starts playing apologetics uninvited and demands "open mind" while calling the others "fools"
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
A important and illuminating video, Doug. Thank you !
My pleasure, Luiz!
So interesting. I’m an archaeologist and want to study the early remains of Buddhist communities
Yes, my understanding is that there are very few archaeological remains from the time of the early Buddhist communities. Likely they tended to live in simple structures made of wood or the like.
Except maybe for the first University, Nalanda secular Buddhist school, near Rajgir Bharat/India. But I’m guessing it has been thoroughly excavated during English colonial times.
Awesome Content as usual, Doug.
My pleasure, Martin. Glad you enjoyed it. 🙏
Haven't yet listened to this one but wanted to thank you for your recommendation of Alex Wynne's work in one of your jhana vids. His lectures led me to Grzegorz Polak's Reexamining Jhana. Thanks for your continued work in sharing these discussions. Nice vids!
You're very welcome, Jacob! I believe Polak's interpretation is controversial, and Bhikkhu Anālayo has written to critique it quite strongly.
@@DougsDharma Thanks and thanks also for your introduction of Bhikku Sujato in this very interesting lecture
I am a buddhist. The Jhana case is taught to me in this way.
Jhana though extremely important, is a very long and arduous task. Some spend decades of their lives and achieved seemingly nothing special.
And also, Jhana never fades away. Even after, buddhism and all buddha's teachings are gone, Jhana will remain. Concentration practices exist in almost any religions.
But vipassana or applying buddha's teachings on your own body with your own mind's eye is special. It can only exist during the Buddha's "Sarsanar".
So famous monks push their students to only focus a little on Jhana and make the most of Vipassana because life is too short. Most people who are into religion are at extremely old ages. Their body is not suitable for extremely long periods of concentration anymore.
Yes this is an opinion widely shared nowadays.
A very clear and balanced presentation on the differences,tq Dr Doug, Richard D CRUZ,Malaysia.
My pleasure, Richard. 🙏
Enjoyable and interesting video! Thanks :-)
Thanks for watching! 🙏😊
Many thanks for this presentation. 🙂🙏
🙏😊
Very high quality content here. It's a matter of time before this channel explodes and gets 100ks views. Don't be hardhearted by the limited views please. TH-cam recommended this to me so you're getting there.
No worries! 🙏😊
Very helpful, thanks.
My pleasure, Bee Cee. 🙏😊
Excellent, thank you for your talk
My pleasure!
Hi Doug, Excellent video as always!!
It is getting spicy. I just love what Bhante Sujato is doing. That isn't an easy job at all even though I disagree on quite a number of them. I am from Burma, the stronghold of Abhidhamma, and was a monk from Mahasi. The town where I live is the birthplace of Both Pha auk and Mahasi. After I found out Dry insight and Samadi are big controversies on the internet, I tried to discuss this topic. But I have never really seen them fighting over whether dry insight is right or not. They don't seem to have many opinions at all on this matter. Abbot just told me every monastery has its own method when you are here, practice my methods. here Monks are really quite fluid. They move between monasteries whenever they felt like it.
That is true... I think codification of anything in a strict sense can never work in Buddhism... It's more about what works and what doesn't.
And Abhidamma has this aspect of codification in it but it seems to me that these have been taken more as general guidelines to a more fluid practice as you mentioned... I would love to have further opinions on this.
@@apurvaj3319 Abhidhamma has 7 books. The treaties like Patthana are mostly about theoretical/philosophical/mathematical explanations of every possible phenomenon both conditional and unconditional, in accordance with dependent origination. some are just lists, matrix, thesaurus, and indexes. Kathāvatthu is like the manifesto of the philosophical position of the Theravada school in ancient India. The one which is believed to be taught by the buddha in heaven is Pattana. So Abhidhamma itself is complex and multilayers, on top of that it is extremely boring to read. I don't think it is a good idea to take guidelines from Abhidhamma for meditation practice unless you are really good at it. It is better to go sutta for that.
Thanks very much for your comment, Zach. 🙏
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
@@monotheist.. No thanks. Islam is not for me. I don’t believe in chopping hands off, executing people, or marrying little girls, or my wife wearing a tent.
No thanks.
I've gone through a number of different Buddhist traditions in the last few decades.
Theravada might not be identical to the earliest Buddhist practice. However I find it to be the least religious version that is still practiced.
This might sound strange, aren't they all religious? Well some schools place more emphasis on veneration of aspects of the Buddha as salvation in themselves. Really not being much different from Catholicism in the way that they pray before statues for intercession on their behalf.
All Buddhism has a fair amount of mythological tales. But Mahayana branch schools seem to be more invested in fantastical tales of supernatural beings, not as parable or metaphor, but as the thing in itself.
Theravada is bit more philosophical though it has it's fair share of prayerfulness and myth.
Yes, matters of degree.
Bhikkhu Analayo is great on that topic too.
Yes, though I don't know of anywhere where he has tried to produce a similar document illustrating the differences.
Thank you for this video. Until now I actually thought that Theravada is almost the same as Early Buddhism. I never knew that it was difficult for women to restore their tradition in Theravada. It makes me a bit sad.
You're most welcome! 🙏
Hi Doug, Some of my thoughts on differences between Early Buddhism (what I call as Moolyana) and Theravada...
1. There was a considerable constant change in the political environment of Magadh since the time of Shakyamuni Buddha to the time of Emperor Asoka. This entire period of time was a time where the society of Magadh seems to have many voices, many opinions as the empire of Magadh constantly grew generation over generation and consolidated its position as pan India entity. When such a thing happens for a society, it further generally gains more space to express opinions and different views. In fact, this is the period when first three (some may consider four) councils of Buddhism and first council of Jainism took place. And in all of such councils, we can see people having different views and opinions, and at most times a split within a tradition happening.
2. Abhidamma has a lot of similarity in the "dryness" you mentioned to that of Emperor Asoka's Dhamma. In fact, the time of Asoka seems to be the one when Abhidamma was codified and actually became very popular.
3. About Acharya Buddhagosa saying Pali being a natural language. Well, I can somewhat relate to him.. Pali and Prakrit grew as one can say, dialect of Sanskrit. If you try teaching Sanskrit to a child as his mother tongue, he will not actually speak Sanskrit at first. Rather he would speak a language which is cruder form of Sanskrit. It is in this way, Pali and Prakrit became a language for all common people who didn't actually spent considerable time studying Sanskrit or were seriously into academics. It took considerable time and academic dedication to be adept in Sanskrit. In this sense, Pali can be said a natural language compared to Sanskrit, which has always been language for scholars and people well-versed in academics in India. Hence, Buddhagosa himself being a scholar would have found this natural aspect of Pali.
4. Of course, I think people should not be restricted by gender, whatever that gender be, to be part of Sangha... And people should come up with better reasons if they still have any opposition to this and should not just go by belief. One must understand that the story of Buddhism is also one of a generational change, as I mentioned above.
5. Being an Indian and having born and raised in this culture, I feel that Indian way of thinking is more about the truth than the fact. It's more about the practice than the philosophy. And we may never know with 100% accuracy about all that Buddha taught in terms of fact. And even if one worries and finds all of this and not actual and sincere practice of this, I feel that it's of no use. This doesn't mean one should stop looking for things but there is a limitation to historical reconstructions. I feel one can actually find what Buddha taught by sincere practice and an enquiry within. More than facts, there should be a focus on the truth. Different generations over time have had different expressions to refer to this practice and enquiry. Therefore we find tons of traditions in Buddhism. Hence, I don't like this view by traditional Theravada followers that "oh we know the real shit" or even this view by the Mahayana folks that "oh our shit is the most evolved thing." It's just that people express stuff according to their time, generation, environment and resources.
Yes, thanks for that, Apurv. 🙏
@@DougsDharma Welcome Doug.... One question though ... Do you consider that the shift from Moolyana (Early Buddhism as what Buddha himself taught) to Theravada to be a fast paced change like something within a 100 years or was it more gradual process which even went beyond the time period of Emperor Asoka..
In my opinion, for further inquiry into this, it's best to study the Theravada tradition over three different geographies - the one in Assam and North East in India, the one in Sri Lanka and the one in Thailand...
Then we may have better answers.. What are your thoughts on this?
But many of scholar read English translation texts, which translated less than100 years ago, and they believe that they know almost everything. When they doubt about it, they will insult Dhamma because they donn't understand it.
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
Btw, how did you come up with the conclusion that pali is a form of Sanskrit?
What are the sources of studying Early Buddhism ?
I've done a number of videos on that general topic. Here's one: th-cam.com/video/0dCG2fheAQs/w-d-xo.html
In reality, I don't see that the Thai forest tradition (Theravada) differs from early Buddhism as you described. Not that I have seen. I never saw anyone that thinks the Abhidhamma was around in the Buddha's time. And I think more than scholars, we need people that actually accomplish supramundane attainments that put forth what they know so there can be some correlation between experiences and the texts to ferret out the plain truths of the path. I strongly dislike the obfuscation that surrounds the 4 stages of enlightenment because I think it damages Buddhism as the 'scientific' path it was intended to be, for the most part. I have heard that it is an eastern superstition that making such things clear prevents their attainment due to expectation, but I don't agree with that. People forget easily enough, and at the highest stages, there is no mind anyway. Lack of clarity/definition relegates Buddhism to the nature of most western religions.
theravada is definitely not limited to thai tradition.
It's interesting to see how things and paths only diverse with time. Maybe we all pick up from the points that intrigue us.
Yes that's right, we all start from our own place.
Thank you, that was really informative and concise and well written too. One of your best videos yet, maybe. I find I like best your videos that somehow do really relate to the practice and inform it.
Do you have a video on the early ideas about the progress of insight? Versions of the Theravada map exist, but they can be rather confusing and are hard to apply to a secular practice.
It's something I have trouble navigating and identifying my own progress with on "the path".
Hope you're well. It was nice to see you in your old study. And lovely too seeing the seated wooden buddha that I so adored over the past years when watching your videos. So much so that I got a similar one. Sorry you had to let go of that. Metta.
My pleasure, Darth! I have a number of videos on the Path and its progress, I'm not sure if they are apt for Vipassana in particular but look around!
Thanks a lot, Doug for explaining some of the differences between EBT and Theravada based on Bhikkhu Sujato's recent text. One key distinction, dry vs. jhana-based attainments, seems to be a perennial one, at least going back to the beginning of the Burmese Vipassana schools. I wonder why there is not more attention given to the statements by arahants who described their practice which seems to have been different in each case. So there is no one universal method perhaps, as Bhikkhu Sujato suggests.
Yes, I've done a number of past videos on these deep states of Samādhi and mentioned how there are different interpretations of them, and some controversy over that. It's complicated for sure!
Hey Doug. Hope everything is going well with you. Any update on your situation with your house? I plan on picking up your book Buddhist Wisdom and I'm really excited to read it. Take care my friend and looking forward to the next video.
Thanks so much, Chill. I'll have some info out in a video in a couple weeks, but we're still waiting for the investigation to be finished so we can start interior demo ... long way to go!
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
@@monotheist..these days people are interested in Buddhism or Buddha teachings. Why don’t you try to study about Buddhism too.
Thank u for this
My pleasure, Sarah.
Thanks you. 🙏
🙏😊
Hi Doug.. when you mentioned "academy" in the final stages of this video, can I please ask what institution you were referring to? Many thanks and keep up the great work
I’m not sure of the context for the question …?
Do agree that an early buddhism & theravada one are not identical. Since theravada was born 500 years(?) after the buddha had gone to pari-nibbana. there is only so much tradition we can enjoy in terms of the early buddhism. Do believe that buddhism in this modern-day has changed and been distorted.
🙏
At 12:40, I didn't realize that the Eight-fold path was a series of stages with right samadhi as the final step. If that was the case then we are all doing it wrong!? I abhor giving significance to 'right-concentration' at the expense of the others because it is all too common for monastics to over-emphasize it. After all, who are best at practicing samadhi than the people who have all the time and convenience to do so in contrast to lay practitioners who have to navigate the nuisances of everyday life with families, work, paying bills and so on and therefore have no time to devote as much attention to it.
Instead I have always pictured the 8-fold as a series of strands that curls and twirls around each other, hence the "fold", supporting and reinforcing each other to make a strong rope. An all-around practice.
Yes, I think in many ways the eightfold path is best seen as a kind of braid like you suggest, but it also can also be taken as at least suggestively linear. One of my courses over at the Online Dharma Institute takes the eightfold path as a kind of spiral.
As the mind switches off, so to speak, at the deeper jhanas, what insights can be attained there? As was introduced to it, the deep jhanas are restful states rather than a platform for exploration of the mind/insights.
Well I think the insights may stem from the period when we are exiting jhāna, although this is something of a controversy as well.
Which sutta did you find that the mind switched off in Jhana? Please share
I'm curious about the relationship between zen (chan/dhyana/jhana) Buddhism and early buddhism. It seems to me that if you were to remove or de-emphasize a lot of the stuff that seems to be later additions to the canon (like the four noble truths and the eightfold path) you end up with something very much like zen, where virtue, compassion, meditation, and jhana attainment is the bulk of the way.
I have a video on the history of Zen: th-cam.com/video/lRAW-GN4TUA/w-d-xo.html , I wouldn't want to claim the 4NT or 8FP were later additions, they are about as central to the early dharma as anything.
After watching this I was wondering why the two types of Buddhism (Early and Theravada) could not simply be two 'branches' of Buddhism? I haven't studied Early Buddhism very much, but when you present distinctions it sounds like these are the kinds of distinctions that come up when comparing schools within a tradition. It reminds me of discussions about Digambara and Svetambara Jainism and which one was earlier. Is there a view that sees Early Buddhism as necessarily chronologically prior to Theravada? and if so what is that based on. Thanks, as always, for your videos.
Early Buddhism isn't really a sect or school, it's a scholarly reconstruction, based on the form of belief and practice described in the earliest texts.
If early Buddhism is the original authentic teachings of Gautama, then why did other movements arise? Why did they need anything aside from what Buddha himself taught??
Well to be fair, early Buddhism is only our reconstruction of that early teaching, which itself depends on texts that have been handed down for millennia. So it won't be perfect. As for why the practices changed, one of the three characteristics of reality is anicca: change. All things change.
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
9:00 reminds me of a language deprivation experiment with children I heard about, in the West, where they were reported to speak Hebrew!
Ah yes, in many cultures there is this notion that their own language (or some special language to their culture) is "the" language.
Please do a video on the 18 schools of Buddhism, sir.
That's something I may do eventually though it would take a lot of research and thinking over how not to make it too long and incomprehensible.
@@DougsDharma Yes please 🙏
I believe "radiance" is common throughout Buddhism and has a link to the fact that all experience is projected from mind. Mind is said to shine out. This is also sometimes referred to as illumination or the luminous aspect of mind despite the fact that it is fundamentally empty. This aspect becomes apparent in non-objective experience of bare dharmakaya. Aren't words fun!
I did a past video on the luminous or radiant mind here: th-cam.com/video/175JTI5AXc4/w-d-xo.html
For me, The Theravada school of Sri Lanka and Thailand being the most earliest representation of early Buddhism......Mahayana and Vajrayana & Dzogchen are later not necessarily wrong but come later time wise.
From what I have seen Thai Buddist is nothing but a lot of BULl
They re -ntegrated with Hinduism. I think Tibetan Buddhist seem more like Hinduism or Bonn with a buddha face
I think you couldn't be more wrong.
Buddhism in China has never not been Mahayana
@@caben. Yes they have and I have changed my position on the Mahayana of China. The texts seem to be faithful copies of the Pali however.
When asked if other ascetics can attain nibbana, Buddha said any practice that contains the noble 8 fold path can lead to nibbana.
So dry insight needs to be re evaluated. Perhaps the misconception of dry insight overlook past lives practice of the noble 8 fold path. Cheers.
So Theravada will eventually lose the EARLY Buddhism status! 🙂🙂🙂
It's interesting to think of Early Buddhism or Buddhism as it was, devoid of Even Theravada or Pali Buddhism. If more research happens that can lead to an eye-opening and convincing outcome, then it will be wonderful.
At the beginning of the each sutta in early Pali, Who said" Thus have I heard"? If you know the answer, that why, it is called Theravada Buddhism.
Well traditionally "Thus have I heard" is supposed to have been said by Ānanda, the Buddha's close attendant, at the first council.
@@DougsDharma Do you mean that " Thus have we heard"is called "Early Buddhism"? Because thousands of monks did recite that" Thus have we heard" at the first council another town. Whatever they did seperately, Buddha suttas were the same.
sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
@@monotheist.. Please show some respect and post just once not carbon copies everywhere. You are a human not a robot.
Evidently you misunderstood Jesus. He taught love and forgiveness. He didn't say "go out and be a robot and encourage others to do the same!"
You attitude is abusive not just to the people here but to Jesus and genuine Christianity.
Your "brand" of Christianity is completely and utterly in the hands of the devil. It is the EXACT opposite of what Jesus taught.
Just a small amount of Buddhist meditation which you would never do (because then you'll begin to see your deep hypocrisy) would actually begin to help you understand the patience and love that Jesus was teaching.
So I repeat "be a human; not a robot!"
But above all do what Jesus taught. Love others as your self. It's not easy but it's what is most worthwhile. And Buddhist meditation will help you do just that.
It's their rights for those theravadins to claim as the most authentic school of Buddhism, but it's also their burden to prove such grandiose claim. Of course not by relying on mythical accounts, but scientific methods instead as done by Bhikkhu Sujato. Thank you for this video! 👍😊
My pleasure, Ucup. And yes, Thanks to Bhikkhu Sujato of course!
Another point against the need for attaining the 4th jhana as a prerequisite to enlightenment is zen Buddhism. The monkey wrench a koan throws into one's discursive stream of thoughts presumably doesn't send one into the 4th jhana though does, if you believe reports, cause enlightenment.
Yes, there is a lot to unpack here. To begin with, is Zen satori the same as full enlightenment? I wouldn't have thought so.
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sir there is one god , god of abraham isaac ishmael moses jesus muhammad , worship one god, choose islam it is the only one that doesnt have n error, quran the only one that doesnt have error and preserved can be memorize and historcally accurate, the jewsih torah has been changed , the bible has been interpolated , only quran doesnt have interpolation , choose islam , its the light , will get you to heaven , thats the real purpose its not necessarily hard bcz you just need to do good works , preaching and keep yourself away from sin no need to meditate or extinguish desire
How much does early Buddhism differ from Mahayana and Vajrayana?
Quite a bit, depending on our interpretations. I've done many videos on this, such as about the development of the bodhisattva ideal, the idea of emptiness, of non-duality, and separate videos on both Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna.
what was it the old monk said....
I wonder how much original Buddhism has in common with the teachings found in the upanishads.
There is quite a lot of similarity, though to be clear the Upanishads are diverse and contain a lot of disparate philosophies. One key difference is in the notion of non-self, which is not found in the Upanishads.
The biggest hurdle for the nun is the Bhikkhuni Vinaya. It is so restrictive by modern standers that it is almost impossible for them to keep.
Yes, but there are some who follow it nonetheless.
@@DougsDharma most modify it.
there are genuine issues, to be sure, but best to ask the bhikkhunis what they think about it … living Vinaya is very different from reading about it.
@@fintefriends I remember talking to you when I was a monk at Bodhinyana. I am assuming it is you and not a Sujato fan account. :)
I just remember the movement rules to be very hard to get around and the living quarter rules.
Early Buddhism must be recovered indeed, because most of Theravadas are said that they are the only truth Buddhism and the other are fake and broken. I am also Theravada Buddhist but I don't like that kind of Buddhism especially in my country Burma, Myanmar, it is extremely conservative and fascist to other kind of Buddhism and also other religions.
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i think we are in the process of recovering it. many think the world is getting worse and in some ways it certainly is, but i think we are as a society getting better and shining light on these negative forces
Prof. Keep in deeply mind that “Those ignorant people who go about criticizing the Noble Dhamma, MAGGA, pass on to the terrible Roruva hell and experiencing suffering for a long time” (Bodhi, 2000, p. 188: A translation of Samyutta Nikaya, Wisdom Publication, Boston). With a mercy, you all are wisely reminded for the sake of yourselves! (Venerable Khamdai, Expert on Visakha Meditation: 6November2567)
Hahahahah.. 🌹🌹🌹
Loving kindness to all,,
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Is there any other source other than theravada literature to learn about early buddhist teachings. mahayana is after all twisted versions with chinese and japanese local believes , and they devoloped way later. so which texts you or any other expert comparing with.maybe hindu texts or something?
Well for more on this see my video on early Buddhism: th-cam.com/video/0dCG2fheAQs/w-d-xo.html . In the show notes I list a paper by Bhikkhus Sujato and Brahmali who go into this in some detail. In a nutshell, there is material from the Theravāda as well as non-Theravāda lineages that can be traced back to early Buddhism.
The Buddha went to heaven to teach Abhidhamma to his mother. Sariputta Thero listened to it from the Buddha to teach it to humans. Abhidhamma is the fundamental science of almost everything. It is a teaching about Matter, Mental Factors, Mind, and Nibbana. Scientists didn't discover all the elements in the universe yet. Abhidhamma is the only oldest teaching about the existence of the smallest elements. We can't find those teachings from Buddhist Suttas. According to Abhidhamma, there are 24 material forms (Rupa) derived from 4 main elements. Mental factors are immaterial forms (Cetasika) that fundamentally exist in the universe. Fortunately, I could discover the existence of those elements. So, I'm sure that the Buddha could discover those elements.
@@ramaraksha01, The Buddha could discover heavenly and Brahma worlds. And he and some of his disciples could visit the heavens. Rama-Panditha was a previous life of the Buddha. And Sita was his sister. But some Indians rewrote the Buddhist Jataka Tale (461) to convert Rama from a human to an Avatar of Vishnu to make Buddha an Avatar of Vishnu. Buddhists don't try to make him a God, but seemingly some Hindus tried (and still try) to make him a God. And Hinduism misguides westerners a lot introducing many Gods and wrong spiritual practices. And westerners confuse about spiritual development and ignore spiritual development because of weak teachings in Hinduism. Most original Hindu books are not older than 500 BCE. And Hindu books changed in a better way with the help of Buddhist teachings. And seemingly, some Indians tried to make stories about Rama and Krishna to reject the caste system to challenge Buddhism. Buddhism is much more perfect and well preserved than Hinduism. So try to learn Buddhism first. I personally think that Hinduism was developed during the time of King Ashoka to reduce his influence and people's support for Buddhism. The influence of Hinduism could cause the development of many other spiritually corrupted religions. People can learn to make a religion if they learn Hinduism. Try to find the right Hinduism. Don't make intelligent westerners disappointed about spirituality by teaching Hinduism. A God or Gods didn't make the nature of reality. So, try to find the best teachings about reality. The best teaching about reality is Abhidhamma.
The Buddha achieved nirvana (extinction) and no longer exists.
@@altclut the Buddha argued that his existence or non existence after death is impossible to determine
Actually this story of Buddha preaching Abhidarma to his mother in heaven - Mathru Diwya Raja - is not original at all. It’s not found in Abhidharma pitaka. Abidharma pitaka was created in between the 2nd and 3rd Dharma Sangayana. And before that it was only Sutra & Vinaya.
Later scholars criticized Abhidharma for not being originally preached by Buddha. So the Abhidharmic monastics created this story of Mathru diywa Raja in ‘Abhidharma attakatha’ Attakatha is a Sri Lankan tradition of giving interpretations to previous texts.
There was only one Buddha; there is only one Buddhism. All the rivers and streams of Jambudvipa flow into the great ocean. One single Buddha vehicle; Upaya splits into three, five and eight. The Dharma seed planted by the Enlightened one grows and evolves, for it is truly alive.
@@ramaraksha01 I was referring to the historical Shakyamuni Buddha, indeed you are correct, the Buddha vehicle means just that; you shall become a Buddha too! Thank you. 🙏
@@ramaraksha01 you are referring to freedom from desire; there is no freedom without self-control. It does not mean to give up all aspirations, only selfish ones. Let the light of wisdom dispel your ignorance.
However many beings there are in whatever realms of being might exist, whether they are born from an egg or born from a womb, born from the water or born from the air, whether they have form or no form, whether they have perception or no perception or neither perception nor no perception, in whatever conceivable realm of being one might conceive of beings, in the realm of complete nirvana I shall liberate them all. And though I thus liberate countless beings, not a single being is liberated.
A little context on dry insight:
The dry insight tradition, which comes from Burma, is a lay specific movement. For a long time, meditation was simply not taught to the laity in Burma, and the government wanted to change that. It asked the monks to develop a system for lay people to learn.
The monks reasoned that the laity simply don't have the time or proper environment to develop samatha fully to jhana. So, they developed a system that was more accessible, using the belief that momentary concentration, the state that path insights (the mind moments that produce enlightenment stages) require, are on about the same level as access concentration, which is the state that is a prerequisite to jhana but much easier to achieve.
So, there's good reason for the dry insight tradition, but it's entirely a lay movement. It took off in a weird direction thanks mostly to the particular cultural quarks of southeast Asia and Goenka's native India, where they now try to argue that the Buddha only taught dry insight, jhanas are addictive and dangerous, and only they have the Buddha's original teaching. They even tried to form a translation society to basically edit the Pali Canon to say what they want it to say. It's a weird movement that started with the best of intentions. But, keep in mind it's a lay movement and just one faction at that.
Yes, I did a video on it awhile back: studio.th-cam.com/users/videoPNZRDPpszkI following Erik Braun's wonderful book.
@@DougsDharma Cool! I first learned to meditate from the Goenka folksand have since moved on, so it's an interesting topic to me. I'm checking out your video now.
It seems to me that the Buddha actually actively tried to prevent "Buddhism" in developing - "Buddshism" as a doctrine that follows (blindly) the Buddhas words. On several occations he encouraged people to NOT simply believe what he said, but to realise the truth for yourself. If people were indeed following the work of the buddha, there would not be any discusion as to what he meant - all discussion would be focussed on finding the truth - a discussion in which the buddhas words should be simply seen as one view among many.
In fact, ironically, if you are not actively debating wher the buddha was right you are not in fact following his teachings. For a true buddhist, the discussions should be revolve around wheter the buddha was right - not who has the correct interpretation.
Well he asked monks to travel around to new areas and teach the dharma, so he was trying to spread his teaching.
Theravada is the most pragmatic. It is less dogmatic .but not without some dogma Tibetan Buddhism seems like Hinduism with a Buddhist face.
What doing your homework looks like :)
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The Buddha achieved nirvana (extinction) and no longer exists!
Yes well traditionally the status of the Buddha after extinction is one of the "unanswered questions" ... ! th-cam.com/video/59FXAW3AS2I/w-d-xo.html
@@DougsDharma The Buddha taught ‘anatman’ (no eternal soul). He taught against the ‘atman’ of Hinduism.
Hello everyone : are jhanas real ?
Sure they are. I think most people can achieve jhāna through diligent practice, it might help to go on a retreat with a specialist.
@@DougsDharma thanks for your response.
I trust your knowledge on the subject because of the fact that you are I think, a rather rational person and you have studied the subject for many years but I tend to be very suspicious on certain jhanas, seeing some of them as esoteric.
I have the same difficulties with enlightenment, in certain suttas, disciple become enlightened in few seconds.
What’s weird for me is the thing of : « ok now, I am enlightened, it’s done », like in a video game when you upgrade your character, acquire a new move or something and you have it till the end of the game.
But in life, you are still subjected to moods, disease…
Anyway thanks a lot.
Yes, but in that sense, enlightenment is very different from jhāna.
@@DougsDharma ok
i think it rubbed me the wrong way. felt a slight tingle in my taint.
Interesting, any idea as to why?
Teravada say Nibbana
Yes, the Pāli word is nibbāna.
Bhakti Ananda Goswami does well arguing that earliest Buddhism was devotional as it was originally a Vaishnava lineage. What do you think of his work?
Check out my video on devotion in early Buddhism: th-cam.com/video/57oqhAKEAF8/w-d-xo.html
Theravada reminds me of catholicism, your not the finished article but if you work hard you will get there. Mayhana is that you were already are the finished article you just don't know it yet. Both are attempts by a you for a better version of you, sadly destined to fail as there is no you....
Certainly, if they're thought of in terms of a permanent, essential "you" they won't be effective.
@@DougsDharma doug, what Buddhism today doesn't believe in a "you", all practice and ritual is merit making in the vain attempt to save or be saved. It never ceases to amaze me that all these Buddhists have the same essential sutras, namely the Diamond, The Lanka and especially the Heart sutra yet utterly fail to understand their message.
Completely wrong about Abhidharma...In sutra pitaka also there are mentionings about abhidharma..Please read Ven.Anandas thera gathas-buddhas closest disciple. He says "here is 84000 teachings of buddha.. I learnt 82000 of them from Buddha him self..and 2000 from other Disciples..."
In tripitaka teachings
Sutra pitaka=21000
Vinaya pitaka=21000
Abhidharma= 42000
So here we can see ven. Ananda knew 82000 which means most of( complete) Abhidharma pitaka as well..
So please dont misguide people about Abhidharma...It is the purest Teaching of Buddha..only buddha is the person who can develop such great teaching set which contains 42000 teachings with no contradictions among them and no contradiction with sutra and vinaya pitakas as well..
Abhidhamma isn't mentioned in the suttas nor the record of the first council. If you have questions, someone like Bhikkhu Sujato, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Bhikkhu Anālayo, or many other contemporary scholars can help.
@@DougsDharma please don't make lies and your own opinions...the monks you mentioned here are not that capable of thripitaka as burmese,thai and sinhalese monks....No one can create that much great teaching set like Abhidhamma except Lord Buddha...if monks came together and created that..then there may be thousands of contradictions..but there is no single contradiction in abhidhamm teachings and with other two pitakas as well..I suggest you to learn some abhidhamma ..then your mis conceptions may get out..without abhidhamma we can not explain buddhist principles like reincarnation, enlightenment, paticcha samuppada, impermenance, merits, sins and non self so on...
@@gimakolla3708 did you know that they literally translated the Pali Canon to English and is the best and most widely available translation among others?
Buddha was not a Buddhist and he did not teach Buddhism, he only taught dhamma vridhamma org
There is no legitimate question that the Pali requires jhana practice. It is mentioned countless times and always when it counts, such as the 8-fold path. Inevitably in a text of this length, there are going to be some inconsistencies, and there are the stories where someone gets enlightened after hearing a talk. But the argument that there is a legitimate question in this regard is unserious. There is a legitimate question about what the lack of enlightened westerners says about the practice.
ISLAM ≠ Arabianity(sunni shia sufi)
Arabianity Sunni = salafi wahabi...
like a:-
ISLAM ≠ Buddhism
(theravada mahayana vajrayana)
Buddhism's follower will follow not Gautama(pbuh).
Arabianity's follower will follow not Muhammad(pbuh).
Follower of ISLAM will follow both Gautama(pbuh) & Muhammad(pbuh)
ISLAM = DHAMMA
arabic pali
Nabi Dhulkifl = Gautama Buddha
Nabi Muhammad = Metteyya Buddha
Buddha is too bc with spread his teaching to anyone who have fate in buddhahood. His younger brother who follow buddha everywhere and still not obtain arahant yet and buddha give order to all monks to not speak to his younger brother after buddha go to nirvana. Buddha give order to high rank monk to make abidhidama. But if it doesn't have his younger brother than it is impossible to made. Later few days later his younger brother of buddha gautama obtain arahant and organize monk and create dhama to us like today.
Buddha set buddhism have age 5000years and it is over.
Abidhidama never made during every buddha life time because it is the role of arahant to create it.
Sadly western doesn't know what is arahant? They think nirvana is easy to go 😂🎉 like they pray their god. It is completely ridiculous.