Even after 50 + years of having worked as a self employed mechanic (outside of a 12 year stint as a mechanical engineer) on mostly GM vehicles, I am forever astonished at your knowledge base Adam, and always come away from your video learning something new and interesting !
GM started out as a holding company cobbled together by Billy Durant. I always attributed it to that. The divisions were originally independent automakers. You want them to have their own engine as part of the product identity and gm had the markershare to preserve those economies of scale.
Thank you for pointing that out. There is way more information than in this video about the different auto lines. GM just bailed each one out at some point and took them in. GM only ended up with the rights to them later on it wasn't their idea to develop all the different makes and model vehicles. There were more automobile manufacturers early in the 1900s than people know.
I will probably never forget the old guy up the street and his GS455. I was young and stupid and impressed by 80s Euro stuff before I knew ANYTHING about cars ... but that old 70s White Buick made 'holy' sounds and he enjoyed pealing out with it.
My uncle became very upset when he found out his Oldsmobile had a Chevrolet 350 engine from the factory. Discovered it when the air filter he bought didn't fit, and the parts man informed him that GM used a "corporate" 350. He felt cheated.
@@Henry_Jones yeah, reading up on it GM made a payout and the whole debacle cost them $8.2 million. I remember at the time, my brother in law, who was a big Chevrolet fan didn't understand Uncle Barry's chagrin. He tried to tell him the Chevrolet was a good engine. They did this in the 1977 Delta 88.
"...he felt cheated..." And rightfully so. The Olds engine was far better quality. For example the Chevy engine frequently had oil leak problems with the valve covers and the rear main seal whereas the Olds engines were pretty tight. Another thing was the chevy engines broke engine mounts a lot. I was an auto mechanic in those days and I had very good knowledge of all the domestic engines.
I like it when you go into the economics of the car business. It helps me understand the choices of the manufacturers. I’d enjoy hearing some examples of where you think the manufacturers were being cheap (or greedy) and shortsighted vs when they found ways to provide value and appeal but not ruin profitability.
Great video, and some excellent comments, too. When I was car-shopping in 1973, I noticed that all four GM car divisions (below Cadillac) had 350 cu. in. V8s, and they all had different bore and stroke dimensions. Working through the numbers showed that they all came to between 349.5 cu. in. and 350.4, so all rounded to 350. When I began working at GM in 1978 I learned that even Corporate management wasn't completely aware of the Great Chevy-mobile Debacle of 1976. As I recall, it began when an Olds customer brought his relatively new '76 model into his dealer for a routine oil change, and the mechanic found that the oil filter was on the other side of the engine from where he expected it to be, and it was substantially smaller. Until the mid-1980s, each car division had its own engineering staff, and each division was responsible for engineering everything forward of the firewall, which included the engine. This is why you'd find the battery and windshield washer reservoir in different locations among the GM car divisions' models, even within the same platform (mid-size A-body, full-size B-body, etc.), and even different colored caps on the windshield washer bottle. Brand identity was always a major concern for all automakers, especially among the GM car divisions. Chevrolet's Number 1 competitor wasn't Ford, but actually Pontiac or Oldsmobile, as it was just as great a sin for Chevy to lose a sale to a sister division as it was to lose it to Ford, or Chrysler, or an import.
Had the Buick 350 as a teen (for about 50k miles), I "very much" liked that engine, did change the distributor (soft cam lobes), that engine ran great with better mileage on the open hwy then expected, topped out my 70 Skylark at 133 on a flat stretch in farm country. Those were the day my friend, I wish they would never end......
In 1988, my car-building friend had a 1971 Skylark that we fixed up and painted, and yeah, she was a blast. 4bbl 350, hell yeah. PS @Mycountrystolen: I love your username. At the last Sex Pistols show, in San Francisco in December 1978, they closed with The Stooges' No Fun, and then Johnny Rotten said "'Ere, ya ever get the feeling you've been cheated?" Every day, Mr. Lydon. Every day.
Still have my 68 Skylark with a 350. Originally had a 2 barrel, but Dad and I found a 70 LeSabre and pulled the 4 barrel and intake. Woke that 350 up a ton. The 2 speed Super Turbine is a hilarious transmission. I could downshift it at 60 mph and it would just launch.
That had the same deck height as the Australian Leyland 4.4ltr alloy V8 which was a bigger version of the Buick/Rover 3.5ltr alloy V8, like the cast iron Buick 340 & 350
Alfred Sloan was the onne who setup the system of committies at the top of gm that set the checks and balances to preserve divisional autonomy. That all went out the window in the 70s and 80s.
By about 1980 or so, with emission regulations and the dawn of fuel injection, engine development started to become too costly to let each division have its own V8, ergo, the Chevy V8 eventually prevailed across all divisions.
This was a great talk! It brought back memories of my Engineering Economy class back in college. I remember the window for adjusting points (with a dwell meter) in GM V8s, it did make tune-ups easier. I remember with sadness when GM divisions started become less differentiated. The 1960's were truly the time of Peak GM.
I also found it interesting back in the day that Buick, Olds, and Pontiac shared a common bell housing bolt pattern, where as Chevy and Cady were all different.
This video was incredible. I could almost recite the different V8 engines with you. I remember studying these engines as a child. Thanks for taking me back. Back down memory lane...
As a kid I was becoming aware of cars in the late '70s, and didn't quite understand all the uproar over GM's engine sharing. But today it makes me smile when I remember that the Olds 403 under the hood of my parents' 1978 Buick Estate Wagon could also be had in the automatic-equipped Pontiac Trans Am that year. :)
I remember the uproar in 77 when the Oldsmobile 88 and 98 ordered with a 350 could come with either a Chevy or Olds engine. GM corrected that mistake for 78, the year I ordered my first brand new car, a black on black Delta 88 Royale coupe. I ordered it with the 350 4bbl and I told the dealer if it came in with a Chevy engine I would not take delivery. I was assured that all 350s for 78 were Olds 350s.
@@dmandman9 During that time period, I would agree!...the Chevy 350 seemed to gain durability when they went to the TBI injection in the late 80's...and the Olds 260 and 307 were very much more durable than the "small" Chevy V8's, like the 262 and 267...maybe even the 305...
@@dyer2cycle Yes, it seems that when they added fuel injection and when the small block chevy changed to when the valve cover bolts went through the center of the valve cover, the durability of the engine increased dramatically. It went from a 100,000 mile engine to one that would commonly last 200,000 miles. But by then except for Cadillac , the other v8s had been phased out. Ironically, the Cadillac engines went from bulletproof to fragile once they changed from the 472, 500, 425, 368 design to the 4100. By the way, the GM V6’s durability got better when they added fuel injection and went distributorless.
It's mind boggling to think about how each brand was totally independent. And how much brand competition there was between each member of the GM family. But as time went on and efficiency and emissions became important then they started to lean towards common platforms...
Per GM at least, “Parts Interchangeability” had already become a somewhat ever-increasing thing across the various divisions of GM by the mid 50’s even… this however, for anyone even slightly familiar with GM cars of the mid 50’s, was rather obviously NOT for major component, subassemblies &/or, specialized contour shaped parts, which then comprised majority parts per division &, often even within separate “series” car parts of same division… it seems as tho this method of overhead cost reduction, really began to increase dramatically by the early 60’s
As Adam stated, too, GM's dropping market share drove much of this as well. They were selling fewer cars so the need to rationalize development costs became more urgent. The front wheel drive A/X platform was the first big step in doing the basic platform engineering on a corporate-wide basis. John DeLorean in On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors wrote that even as early as the late 1960's and early 1970's GM management had begun to see a future where they could no longer bear the costs of letting each division do bespoke development of its own vehicles. Part of the issues with the Vega was that management of the individual divisions did not want a car developed by one of the other divisions. It's a fascinating and, in 2023, incomprehensible way of running a business.
@@seanbatiz6620 It increased by giving each division a compact that under the skin was the same car corporate-wide, for the most part. The regular standard-size cars were slower to move in that direction. Oldsmobile didn't until about 1965, but even then, kept it's own engines.
I was born in 1964, so I had an idea of what went on in the Golden age of the auto industry.. but i really wished I was born sooner to be an actual part of it . Was a fun exciting time in automotive history, for sure.. back when bean counters had a very small role to play in The GM scenario..
Great topic and conversation Adam! I always wondered why GM allowed the divisions to have there own proprietary engine designs. Makes perfect sense. I kind of miss those days when each had its own. Each sounded a little different too, I think.
Absolutely the olds had a more bassy exhaust, Pontiacs seemed to be raspy, Buick seemed to have the quietest sound, Chevy best induction sound under medium to full throttle.
There for a number of years in the GM cars you never knew until you raised your hood for the first time what brand of engine was in it. That's when they made a universal bolt pattern that would fit most of the different GM engines bolt patterns. Good Ole Chevys had the same bolt pattern no matter if it was a 6 cyl or a big 454 and if I am not mistaken the LS engines, that everyone is using, has the same pattern that I know started with the 1955, 265 ci if not before. They were the interchangeable part kings of the US, maybe even the world. I remember having an 84 Grand Prix that had a 305 ci (I think) Chevy engine from the factory. The most disappointing engine, power wise, in a Chevy that I had was a 307 ci in a 69 Chevelle. Beautiful car that looked fast sitting still but just no power and it was new. One of the biggest surprises I got, performance wise, was a 1970 Wildcat with a 455 ci. We had a couple different 1/4 mile places on the main hwy back then that everyone was going to go race at one night, We talked a friend into racing his Big Buick Wildcat. We checked under the hood and all the fluids were low so we topped them off and shook the dirt out of the air filter, bought him some gas and I'll be darned if the big ole boat didn't outrun every muscle car there! We had lookouts up and down the race area with the old cb radios to let us know if a smokey was on the way. At the time they all drove the same type cars with reflective striping so you knew it was them. Things were a lot different back then than now. It was a lot like the show Happy days but not nearly as innocent. It was a good era to have grown up in. By the way gasoline was 27.9 cents for regular and 29.9 for no-nox at the time of these events and you also received Top Value stamps with your purchase, your gas was pumped for you, your windshield got washed and your oil checked without even asking.
I produced a case study on this exact subject as a college freshman. The how was driven by brand identity where management encouraged each division to pursue its own market, marketing and components. Those engine plants were there early in their brand lives and continued until economics changed things. The why was the brand identity was a strong force until economics changed things. When costs had to go, the decision was to carve out specialty engines from each division. Chevrolet had the V8s, certain V6s and the inline 6 plus the 4-cylinder Chevette. Pontiac produced the 2.5L, Oldsmobile did the 307 V8 until 1990 and Buick built the V6. Cadillac was allowed to continue to produce a unique engine and we know how that worked out.
Too bad, as Cadillac's engines before the 80s were Life-time engines. If you took care of them and never burned them up by driving with no water, they would outlast the car, and still be in good condition. Buick straight 8s were almost as good.
@@michaelbenardo5695 There was simply no way those Cadillac engines of yesteryear were going to be able to meet CAFE requirements and weight requirements, though.
You can add Holden Australia to the list, their first V8,s were chev small blocks fully imported from the US but as demand for the v8,s increased they built their own engine in 253 and 308 ci, later a 305 to satisfy race regs. Core engine shared virtually nothing with any other GM v8.
Holden had always intended to use their own V8 for the HK but production delays forced Holden to use a Canadian Chevy V8 instead in its place. Later the Aussie V8 was introduced in the HT range alongside the larger Chevy V8's.
That was a nice, rational “beancounter” explanation of why the divisions had different engines. I had always thought it was because the divisions were more autonomous than in later years. The divisions seemed to go their own way back then. I meant no disrespect using the term beancounter, i know you were on the financial side of the business, hence my use of the term.
You should do a video on the GM Dexcool debacle, and their refusal to address, or even admit there was a problem. This effected MILLIONS of cars over two decades.
I have 2 late 90s early 2000 G M engines (including a Northstar) that both got switched to green coolant the day they came off warranty. Dec-cool was horrible, slightest air bubble at the high point of the system and the red mud would begin forming. Conventional product with reasonable change intervals, never even a water pump failure.
Ford 351 Cleveland and 351M (and 400) were actually a common design - the 335 series family. Bellhousing and deck height are different, but heads and block, crank, pistons…all based on common architecture. But I get your point. These engines were developed over time for different applications, and the OEM’s had enough volume to support this approach.
One thing I didn’t really see in the comments and having literature at the time was that in California, the emissions were more stringent. I remember reading in the Buick literature for 1977 that while Buick was still making its 350V8, in California, the cars with a 350 came with an Olds 350. Same thing with Pontiac. California Emissions did necessitate different engines. You could not get a Firebird with a Pontiac 400v8, but the olds 403 in California. I also remember when GM downsized their mid-size cars in 1978. Chevy introduced a 229 V6 for the Malibu, except cars in California which used the Buick 231 V6. I’m sure it would have been more confusing for the average listener to hear this, but a small mention of this would have been nice.
That's one of the reasons for why they stayed number one. Buick had the most different engines, in the Sixties. The 340 being the most short-lived one of them all
Your explanation was spot on! Well done. I believe this was the first time I've ever seen someone attempt to explain GM's logic behind each division having its own specific engines. When I was a young guy, it was only about brand identity though to me and my friends...Bragging rights so to speak, but back then all GM engines were great IMO.
Thanks for your videos adam,i had a couple older brothers who taught me alot of the stuff you often highlight.they are gone now and i like your content because it is relative to the ki d of discussions we oftenhad about older cars we had.thanks again
One other upside to the brands having parallel engineering teams is that it increased GM’s chances for innovation, and some of the best solutions would make their way to all of the divisions. It also allowed GM to hire a bunch of engineers, keeping them out of Ford and Chrysler’s offices.
The simplest business equation is MONEY DETERMINES OPTIONS. Bean counters rule, which is not a bad thing. My daughter is one of them, and I’m very proud of her.
I father worked for Ingersoll Milling Machines. GM wanted 2 separate lines for the machining of the 3.8L Buick blocks. The reason as I understand it is if a machine tool goes down for a certain period of time then the machine would be replaced with the spare milling machine. That gave maintenance time to fix the milling machine. No other machine tool manufacturer would touch this concept. Ingersoll was known for their world winning specially machine tools.
I have been such a fan ofCadillac and Buick front distributor V-8s especially breaker point engines! Chevrolet, Oldsmobile and Pontiac V-8s with the distributor up against the firewall seemed more difficult to tune-up. And don’t get me talking about my ‘68 Lincoln and the front hinged hood!
I miss the old Pontiac V8s. Had a '79 Trans Am for many years, it had the Olds 403 in it. Wound up having more than a few discussions with counter guys at auto parts stores who were sure it couldn’t have been factory. Their ‘corporate’ engine options at that time, while making economic sense, were still annoying to me - the ‘79 Firebird could have had a 231 Buick V6, a 305 or 350 Chevy V8, a 301 or 400 Poncho V8, or the 403 Oldsmobubble V8. I wish I could have found one with the 400 Pontiac with a 4 speed, but after looking long and hard gave in and got the 403/automatic car.
@@tomm1109 Actually, that one was easy once you knew this detail - if the shaker scoop said 6.6 LITRE it was the 403 Olds; if it said T/A 6.6 it was the 400 CID Pontiac.
Actually, I need to correct this - upon some further reading, apparently the 'T/A 6.6' decal was only for W72 package cars with the 400 Pontiac. Apparently there were others that got the L78 Pontiac 400; they shared the '6.6 LITER' decal with the Olds 403 powered cars. I suspect that there were very few of them, and that the VAST majority of 6.6l cars had the Olds engine, thus my confusion, having never seen a '6.6 LITER' marked car with anything but the Olds.403.
Chrysler had a lot of different V8s once they introduced them in 1951. Not a lot of parts sharing there. But they learned pretty quickly they could use a few different ones to power everything. The wedge engines started that.
Still mostly a Bigblock , smallblock heminand bigblock hemi. Later with the poly in everything that even shares loads of parts with the last mopar smallblock :) even the slant 6 shared quite some parts with the bigblock
I used to work in a wrecking yard and it is interesting to note that Buick-Olds-Pontiac and most Cadillac models used the same bellhousing bolt pattern but Chevrolet was different. Similar but different. Other factors were similar, so if you had the proper motor mounts, in general you could put an Olds engine in a Buick or a Cadillac engine in a Pontiac without too much trouble. Of course the exhaust could be another problem...
It was a large corporation that had bought out all those independent makers and made "divisions" out of them. While I'm no fan of large corporations and that tactic, there is no denying there was some smarts behind making it so successful for so long.
It also allowed the division managers and engineers to tailor driving characteristics and gave them some control over quality. The divisions were somewhat competing with each other. And the buyers took pride and were loyal to their brands often times because they liked that divisions engines. Then came 77 Chevymobile controversy. Many people were upset when they found out their new Oldsmobile had a Chevy engine but the air cleaner still stated Oldsmobile V8. Oldsmobile knew their customers wanted Oldsmobile engines.
Adam your almost at 100k subscribers congrats on that. I have been watching your channel since around 1k subscribers I really looked the content. Please keep this format it works as shown by channel growth.
I think what people don't realize is back then people when buying a Ford/Lincoln looked at it as buying a "FoMoCo" product so sharing engines seemed logical. Chrysler products were perceived as being "Mopar" so the engine sharing seemed logical. People buying a Buick or Olds absolutely did not perceive themselves as buying a GM vehicle. GM was a much more loosely associated line of car brands that had even their own engineering for each brand.
Buick 455 was the best! For street level HP, like less than 450hp it was a better motor than the BBC because it was a lot lighter. It also had the biggest bore and stroke of the 454/455s and was the last new BB of the 60s coming out in 67 with new modern tech to make it lighter like having the oil pump, water pump, and distributer in an aluminum unit at the front. The Chevy's with the dist at the back must have been a pain to do the points, especially on a truck.
Do you mean the Buick 455's had a more oversquare ratio compared to the 454's and as such, fundamentally more of a "racy" engine with less rotating mass?
You have that correct! Points replacement in our 1970 C10 pick up is a pain, especially for a small person such as myself! At times the engine looks like it's having me for lunch as I am completely inside under the hood trying to reach the back distributor.
Great, informative chat. I recall test-driving a new 1975 Cutlass Supreme that seemed sluggish and noticeably different from the Olds Omega 350 I had just driven. The engines felt and even sounded different. I thought at the time that the Cutlass was more like a Chevy 350 as I had also been test-driving a number of Chevys w/ 350s, namely Monte Carlo, Malibu and Nova. I ended up with a Camaro with a 350 4bbl. I can remember when GM's engine-swapping got publicly exposed in 1977. It was a PR disaster for GM.
Having owned all these engines it wasn't 'til the early 90's I realized what you just conveyed! Had a Pontiac 350 Catalina that got 17 MPG intown, and a '76 Buick 455 that got 17 MPG on the highway, neither making sense to me, along with Chevy SB 400 at 11 MPG HWY! Our whole world is very strange! Also a '70 T-Bird 429 4V @4 MPG/11 MPG, sold it fast!
That 70 T- bird 429 really get 4mpg? I swapped a 69 429 out of a T-bird and into my 77 Ranchero. It had a 4bbl carb too. I was getting about 10 mpg loaded/towing a trailer or empty. I did have pretty high freeway gears in the rear axle 3:00.
Something had to be wrong with that T-Bird. I knew someone with the even larger 460 in a large and in charge Lincoln Continental and it got better than that.
The 429 needed a straw directly attached to a gas pump at all times but it was possibly the smoothest V8 Ford ever made. The torque in the T-Birds with 429s were like turbines and sooooooo quiet
By the time of the 350 small block and 455 big blocks GMs were beating Ford and Chrysler products at highway gas mileage that served them well in the seventies. Their engines barely turned on the highway.
Excellent presentation of the facts. Very personal approach while bringing the facts. You literally explained more than just your intended topic, it also explains why the independent manurfactures time was numbered due to the olds, Cadillac V8 OHV and GMs overall spending plans for the 50's. Very nice sir.
Some of the divisions also used to have their own transmissions too, the 1953 hydramatic factory fire meant that dynaflow and powerglide units had to be substituted until willow run was online
Their cars were of different sizes and weights. A Cadillac was a huge and heavy car, the big Buick, (4 holes per side), was almost as big and heavy. The Olds 98 a little less so, the Pontiac was a lighter car. The Chevy was the "baby", the smallest and lightest by quite a bit.
The funny one is why Ford had so many V8 engines. From 1954 through 1977 you could have had the Y block, the FE, the Windsor - Fairlane V8, the 351 Windsor which was a different block, the 400 modified - 351 modified,, the Cleveland,, and the 385 series 429 and 460s,, all different engines...
@@jeffmiller3150 Ture but if you bought a Chevy in the same time frame you got a small block Chevy or a big block Chevy with a lite sprinkling of 348's and 409's....
@@2packs4sure Except the small journal to large journal change in the small block in the 60's. Or the 305 vs 350 non-interchangable anything internal (also the vortec heads in the 90's have a unique intake bolt pattern). Plus the unique 400 small block... Or the short deck 396/403/427/454 vs the tall deck 366/427. But other than being completely different they were all the "same" LOL.
I bought a Chevrolet back in the early 80s that the previous owner had swapped in a Buick 350, and I was amazed at how willing that engine was to rev up. I thought of Buick as a low RPM luxury yacht engine, but in a Malibu it scooted along nicely.
Jeep used 350 Buick engines . I had a pickup with one in it i liked it but it had more low end power than a Chevy 350. I sold it to a guy that put a chevy in it i got to drive after that. I think out of all the 350s the Chevy had less low end torque .
@@dougpersell8776 The Buick 350 had a much smaller bore size of 3.80 and a longer stroke of 3.85 which explains the torque difference. SBC depend upon Rpms for HP while giving up torque...
I think that there was a level of inter-division competition and pride amongst the different brands that helped to foster the best design and differentiation in their vehicles. Think about the differences between the original 1960's Corvair, Tempest, F-85 and Special. All the same platform but with very different engine choices.
Each GM division's engines had their advantages and disadvantages. The Pontiac 455 was the same basic block design as the 350, although with larger journals. This meant that the 455 heads were also size constrained, unlike the 454 Big Block Chevys (Rat), and had smaller valve sizes. The Chevy could make more power, especially with modifications, but it had worse throttle response. There was also incredible diversity within each division, with Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick each producing high performance versions of their cams, heads and valvetrains. The Chevelle SS, GTO, 442, and Buick GSX each had fans that claimed their car was fastest, or better in real world street racing.
The Oldsmobile 260 V8 came out in 1975. It beat the 305 Chevy, 301 Pontiac to the tiny V8 thing of the late 70’s. Then Ford, Chevy, and Pontiac would later around 1980 release similar small 2xx engines.
Okay. Buick introduced its famous eight-cylinder engines in 1930 model year. Engineers worked on maximizing parts interchangeability in the three new engines, but management ordered that not a single part should interchange among them.
GM did allow some engine sharing. Way back in the 1930s, LaSalle used Oldsmobile engines. The 1961-63 BOP senior compacts shared the 215 ci V8 ( which would be sold to British Leyland ). But to big reasons to me is by the 1960s, GM would allow the Divisions to compete with each other! Plus, a policy til the 1970s that let the Divisions have more autonomy. ( Example: GM developing 3 distinct automatic transmissions. Oldsmobile,Cadillac, & Pontiac using Hydra-Matic. Buick developing Dynaflow. And Chevrolet developing Powerglide & later Turboglide ). Another way to show this is how the Divisions would overlap each other. Two examples: The 1958 Chevrolet Bel Air Impala ( it was advertised as such! ) pushed Chevrolet into Pontiac's turf. The Buick Special only cost a few dollars more than " The Low-Priced Three ". So successful was the Special, Buick kicked Plymouth out of 3rd place in annual production for 1954-1956.
Ford had 4 351 engines , a 351 Cleveland, 351 Windsor, 351 Midland/Modified and the 352 FE Big Block , all the same size at 352 cubic inches , the only reason the small and mid blocks were designated 351 was to set them apart from the big block 352 FE but they were all the same size internally .
In Australia, GM Holden even made a cast Iron V8 with the same bore centre spacing as a SBC that was just 450 lbs & had valve gear like a Pontiac or Olds, I forget which
"Not that many nice days in the Midwest." That's about 100% true. It's either as hot and humid as southeast Asia or as cold and harsh as Siberia. I wondered about this for years. I had it explained to me that the divisions of GM liked to have some degree of autonomy despite being a part of the same corporation. The downside was it created some infighting and rivalries between the divisions. Ford had very little autonomy. They just had a different philosophy. Eventually the cost of all these engines across GM just became too high so they had to consolidate their drivetrains.
As James Carville said many years ago "Why does a dog lick its private parts? Because it can." I was surprised to learn recently that there was an Oldsmobile version of Buick's famous 215 cu inch aluminum V8, partly to allow the engines to be assembled on both Buick and Oldsmobile assembly lines, the Olds version also had different heads with more bolts. I don't know what else was different between the two, but they were said to have almost identical displacements, so the cylinder dimensions were probably the same. I suppose any number of things one expects to find on an engine assembly line, bits, taps, etc. had to be accommodated and each division must have had a substantial investment in equipment dedicated to its own designs. I'm sure all this made GM a more interesting place, but it must have been nerve-wracking coordinating 5 divisions, each with its own unique baggage.
The blocks were the same, except for the number of head-bolt holes, but the heads were indeed different. The Olds version had the most power and revved the highest.
James Carville: what an interesting and quick-witted man! Just before the 1992 Presidential election, Dan Rather asked him about Governor Clinton's chances "if" this happens, "but" that could also happen. Carville dismissed the whole thing by saying. "Well, you know, Dan Rather, if "ifs" and "buts" were beer and nuts, we'd have one hell of a party!" SO funny, and one of the best lines all year!
In the 70's no only were GM's sales decline but increasing emissions and fuel economy regulations were both: increasing the engineering and testing costs for each engine, while increasing the frequency with which engine designs had to be replaced or extensively modified. Thus the fixed costs suddenly became more significant.
Another consideration that drove GM to consolidation of power plants was the EPA emissions certification and Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements. The cost of research to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy for the myriad of engines, plus the certification of all with the government was prohibitive. I did some work in that field during that time (1970s).
An Olds mechanic showed me a 72 Delta 88 with a Pontiac 350 engine. My neighbor had a 78 Buick Electra with an Olds 350 engine. Both that way from the factory.
GM was able to get their divisions to have their own fans due to the fact that each division had their own engines. And as you stated, power output and red line helped make each division different from each other performance-wise. As you also stated, GM had very high market shares during those times, so they had plenty of money to produce. CAFE standards, the stages in vehicle downsizing, and cuts in model lineups would most likely also have connections to GM's decision to stop their brands from producing so many engines and begin using a single engine produced by one division in most other divisions. Think of how common the Chevy 350, Chevy 305, and Buick 3.8 eventually became across the entire company.
I grew up with all these engines and finally got the answer as to why ! Possibly there was a little competition between the divisions also that caused the various engine designs which could then be compared to each other.
Thank You Adam... you put into perspective why GM did what it did. Although, could you find out why GM choose to end the Pontiac V-8? I feel it was one of the greatest engines ever produced. Thank You Adam.
In the late 70s my dad had an Olds 88 with a 455 and a Buick LeSabre, also with a 455. Pretty much the same car, with the same Gear Ratio. They certainly were different in how they accelerated, from a Light, or by using Passing Gear.
I had a '73 Olds 88 4-dr and a '73 Buick 225 Limited. The Olds acceleration didn't impress me, but the Buick did. That said, the Olds was in some ways a nicer car.
Great discussion Adam. Another aspect of brand difference was the brand legacy established before the individual companies became part of GM to preserve brand loyalty.
Or I have the 1981 Pontiac Bonneville with the Oldsmobile 307 with the 200-4R transmission and the 1985 Caprice with the Chevrolet 305 with the 700 R4 transmission. One of the last holdouts i think of GM using 2 different engines with nearly the same displacement.
What I always wondered was why there was a Chevy Bellhousing bolt pattern, and A different one for all the other divisions. And they only moved 2 bolt holes. You could swap them if you left 2 bolts out.
Fascinating explanation for a question I’ve always had. So why rationalize in ‘77 to go to “corporate” standard engines all painted generic blue? Not enough scale in divisions like Pontiac anymore to justify the cost?
One factor that you have left out is the origin of all of these different engines. Each division of GM had previously been an independent brand that had all of their own specific engines and characteristics. Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Cadillac all had been independent brands previous to having been incorporated into GM. Each also had their own customer base that had their own loyalty factor. They bought specific brands because of personal preferences. GM did not want to alienate that customer base - at least in the early days.
@@RareClassicCars Wasn't it? Why else would GM keep each brand to be unique and stick mostly to it's traditions? Back in the late 1960s, I was working in a buick dealership. Make no mistake - a Buick customer was forever a Buick customer. Each brand had it's unique characteristics, and going from a Buick to a Chevrolet was much like going from a Buick to a Ford or Chrysler.
an even more perplexing issue with all the engines GM had was that they reused iconic engine code names for engines. Example; LS6, LS7, LT1, etc. They had some of the most iconic V8’s in history but chose, later on, to name their modern engines the same. With literally an infinite amount of options to name their engines with numeric/letter codes, they chose to diminish the image of earlier iconic engines. Don’t get me wrong, the modern LS series engines are iconic themselves, but when one refers to an engine as “LS6”, it should be immediately clear what power plant they are referring to.
Thanks again Adam. Subjects that could go on and on. I will make a point that some of the mid 80's Caprice wagons were equipped with the Oldsmobile 307. Strange how random brand placement was. As if there was a gumball machine filled with random V8 engines on the assembly lines and whatever plopped out is what the next car in the line got
Olds heads have spark plugs that are on top and away from exhaust manifold. No burn’t wires or long wire routing like Chevy. Also unique rocker hold downs that bolted down. Tighten to ~40lbs and lash set for valves. 350 and 455 would swap with no modifications. Motor mounts linkages etc etc. Miss my olds.
Never understood why Ford didn’t put the little points adjustment window in their distributor cap? One of my favorite GM engines was the early 60’s Buick nailhead 401 , beautifully balanced and made excellent power in upper rev band. Dynaflows didn’t do it any favors but overall a great motor 👍🏼 great video as always.
In 1966, you could get a Chevrolet Chevelle with a choice between two different six-cylinder engines (194ci or 230ci) and three different V8s (283ci, 327ci and 396ci). I don't think the 427 was offered in a Chevelle until later..
Thanks for the great video. Ford played a similar game with lots of V8 offerings across the Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln lines. They are: 221, 239, 256, 260, 272, 289, 292, 302, 312, 332, 351W, 351C, 351M, 352, 361, 383, 390, 400, 406, 410, 427, 428, 429, 430, 460, and 462. Someone please let me know if I left something out.
You’re correct in that they made a lot of different engines. However, many of those engines were the same family and could be made using the same machinery example the 221, 260, 289, 302, and 255 shared the same design. The 351w was ALMOST the same. Then you had the 351C,351 M, and 400 that were very similar. The 332, 312, 352, 360, 361, 390,427, 428 were similar, the 370, 429, and 460 were similar. Some of these were truck engines.There were other families as well, I just don’t know off the top of my heads which belonged together. But concurrently, only the 351 had two completely different engines of the same displacement.
I can add a few. Ford brought out a 136 in 1937. It was mainly used in Europe even up into the 60's. The 337 was used in Lincoln & Ford trucks from 1949 to 1951. The 279 & 317 were used in Ford trucks from 1952 to 1955 & the 317 may have been used in Lincoln. The 221 started out as a flathead in 1932 & it later showed up as an 221 OVH in 1960. There could be more.
@@n.mcneil4066 yes when compared to GM, in general Lincoln and Mercury engines tended to different from their Ford counterparts of the same year only in displacement. I think some of the 1960s era Lincoln's may have used design exclusive to them. It was the 462. But that was the exception rather than the rule in the modern era. But for the most part you could install the Mercury addition of an engine in a Ford of the same year with no modifications. But the GM engines we're completely different from one another depending on the division.
Oh, I can add a few more Ford V8's. The was the Ford Super Duty series from the late 50's to1975 which included the 401. 477. & 535. Also, during the 70's I ran across a huge 383 which I was told came from a Mercury. I'm not sure what year though. t
Each division of GM had it's own customer base before they joined GM. It had more to do with customer loyalty. The competition between divisions just made them all better. But when the EPA started cracking down on emissions the search was on for the cleanest burning engines. As dirty engines were phased out they were replaced with cleaner engines from other divisions on the assembly line. That's the short version from me. Formerly Mr Goodwrench. Thanks for showing us the math!
Going into the depression there were huge numbers of car companies. Even in the 50s, Nash, Packhard, Studebaker were around. Willys, Kaiser. A lot more competition. Name plate engineering would'nt have worked.
Even after 50 + years of having worked as a self employed mechanic (outside of a 12 year stint as a mechanical engineer) on mostly GM vehicles, I am forever astonished at your knowledge base Adam, and always come away from your video learning something new and interesting !
Amen!
He is an encyclopedia! Truly impressive .
Me too👍
Yes-thank you, Adam, for this very interesting explainer.
"Adam has inside information the average person doesn't get access too". 🗣👥️
GM started out as a holding company cobbled together by Billy Durant. I always attributed it to that. The divisions were originally independent automakers. You want them to have their own engine as part of the product identity and gm had the markershare to preserve those economies of scale.
Great point!!!
A lot of GM's problems nearly 100 years later were rooted in how the company was historically structured and managed.
Thank you for pointing that out. There is way more information than in this video about the different auto lines. GM just bailed each one out at some point and took them in. GM only ended up with the rights to them later on it wasn't their idea to develop all the different makes and model vehicles. There were more automobile manufacturers early in the 1900s than people know.
@@curtbrockhaus6131 A lot of newer cars look alike. Including the Chevy Malibu. Years ago that wasn't the case. Not sure what you're saying here.
@@stevevarholy2011 I have a feeling the Buick nameplate will go the way of the Pontiac and Oldsmobile by 2030. Sooner maybe.
I will probably never forget the old guy up the street and his GS455. I was young and stupid and impressed by 80s Euro stuff before I knew ANYTHING about cars ... but that old 70s White Buick made 'holy' sounds and he enjoyed pealing out with it.
My uncle became very upset when he found out his Oldsmobile had a Chevrolet 350 engine from the factory. Discovered it when the air filter he bought didn't fit, and the parts man informed him that GM used a "corporate" 350. He felt cheated.
It was a big scandal for GM which was covered by all 3 network news broadcasts!
There was a class action lawsuit on that I believe.
@@Henry_Jones yeah, reading up on it GM made a payout and the whole debacle cost them $8.2 million. I remember at the time, my brother in law, who was a big Chevrolet fan didn't understand Uncle Barry's chagrin. He tried to tell him the Chevrolet was a good engine. They did this in the 1977 Delta 88.
@@mikekokomomike It kind of defeated the purpose of buying a certain brand of automobile.
"...he felt cheated..." And rightfully so. The Olds engine was far better quality. For example the Chevy engine frequently had oil leak problems with the valve covers and the rear main seal whereas the Olds engines were pretty tight. Another thing was the chevy engines broke engine mounts a lot. I was an auto mechanic in those days and I had very good knowledge of all the domestic engines.
I'm glad that GM had all of those different engine families!
I like it when you go into the economics of the car business. It helps me understand the choices of the manufacturers. I’d enjoy hearing some examples of where you think the manufacturers were being cheap (or greedy) and shortsighted vs when they found ways to provide value and appeal but not ruin profitability.
Great video, and some excellent comments, too. When I was car-shopping in 1973, I noticed that all four GM car divisions (below Cadillac) had 350 cu. in. V8s, and they all had different bore and stroke dimensions. Working through the numbers showed that they all came to between 349.5 cu. in. and 350.4, so all rounded to 350. When I began working at GM in 1978 I learned that even Corporate management wasn't completely aware of the Great Chevy-mobile Debacle of 1976. As I recall, it began when an Olds customer brought his relatively new '76 model into his dealer for a routine oil change, and the mechanic found that the oil filter was on the other side of the engine from where he expected it to be, and it was substantially smaller. Until the mid-1980s, each car division had its own engineering staff, and each division was responsible for engineering everything forward of the firewall, which included the engine. This is why you'd find the battery and windshield washer reservoir in different locations among the GM car divisions' models, even within the same platform (mid-size A-body, full-size B-body, etc.), and even different colored caps on the windshield washer bottle. Brand identity was always a major concern for all automakers, especially among the GM car divisions. Chevrolet's Number 1 competitor wasn't Ford, but actually Pontiac or Oldsmobile, as it was just as great a sin for Chevy to lose a sale to a sister division as it was to lose it to Ford, or Chrysler, or an import.
Oh, the Ford 351 story would be really interesting to hear.
Had the Buick 350 as a teen (for about 50k miles), I "very much" liked that engine, did change the distributor (soft cam lobes), that engine ran great with better mileage on the open hwy then expected, topped out my 70 Skylark at 133 on a flat stretch in farm country. Those were the day my friend, I wish they would never end......
I bet that Skylark was a joy with that Buick 350 in it. 👍
In 1988, my car-building friend had a 1971 Skylark that we fixed up and painted, and yeah, she was a blast. 4bbl 350, hell yeah.
PS @Mycountrystolen: I love your username.
At the last Sex Pistols show, in San Francisco in December 1978, they closed with The Stooges' No Fun, and then Johnny Rotten said "'Ere, ya ever get the feeling you've been cheated?"
Every day, Mr. Lydon. Every day.
Still have my 68 Skylark with a 350. Originally had a 2 barrel, but Dad and I found a 70 LeSabre and pulled the 4 barrel and intake. Woke that 350 up a ton. The 2 speed Super Turbine is a hilarious transmission. I could downshift it at 60 mph and it would just launch.
That had the same deck height as the Australian Leyland 4.4ltr alloy V8 which was a bigger version of the Buick/Rover 3.5ltr alloy V8, like the cast iron Buick 340 & 350
Alfred Sloan was the onne who setup the system of committies at the top of gm that set the checks and balances to preserve divisional autonomy. That all went out the window in the 70s and 80s.
By about 1980 or so, with emission regulations and the dawn of fuel injection, engine development started to become too costly to let each division have its own V8, ergo, the Chevy V8 eventually prevailed across all divisions.
This was a great talk! It brought back memories of my Engineering Economy class back in college. I remember the window for adjusting points (with a dwell meter) in GM V8s, it did make tune-ups easier. I remember with sadness when GM divisions started become less differentiated. The 1960's were truly the time of Peak GM.
Gotta love the old school GM Big Block V8s.
I also found it interesting back in the day that Buick, Olds, and Pontiac shared a common bell housing bolt pattern, where as Chevy and Cady were all different.
caddy also used bop bell housing after 67
Yes, they called it the BOP bolt pattern
GMC trucks (305 V6 IIRC) had BOP Pattern and even some Completely Pontiac Engines...that ended in the 60s sometime...
This video was incredible. I could almost recite the different V8 engines with you. I remember studying these engines as a child. Thanks for taking me back. Back down memory lane...
As a kid I was becoming aware of cars in the late '70s, and didn't quite understand all the uproar over GM's engine sharing. But today it makes me smile when I remember that the Olds 403 under the hood of my parents' 1978 Buick Estate Wagon could also be had in the automatic-equipped Pontiac Trans Am that year. :)
I remember the uproar in 77 when the Oldsmobile 88 and 98 ordered with a 350 could come with either a Chevy or Olds engine. GM corrected that mistake for 78, the year I ordered my first brand new car, a black on black Delta 88 Royale coupe. I ordered it with the 350 4bbl and I told the dealer if it came in with a Chevy engine I would not take delivery. I was assured that all 350s for 78 were Olds 350s.
I don’t blame you because the Olds engine was clearly more durable than the Chevy engines.
@@dmandman9 During that time period, I would agree!...the Chevy 350 seemed to gain durability when they went to the TBI injection in the late 80's...and the Olds 260 and 307 were very much more durable than the "small" Chevy V8's, like the 262 and 267...maybe even the 305...
@@dyer2cycle Yes, it seems that when they added fuel injection and when the small block chevy changed to when the valve cover bolts went through the center of the valve cover, the durability of the engine increased dramatically. It went from a 100,000 mile engine to one that would commonly last 200,000 miles. But by then except for Cadillac , the other v8s had been phased out. Ironically, the Cadillac engines went from bulletproof to fragile once they changed from the 472, 500, 425, 368 design to the 4100. By the way, the GM V6’s durability got better when they added fuel injection and went distributorless.
It's mind boggling to think about how each brand was totally independent. And how much brand competition there was between each member of the GM family. But as time went on and efficiency and emissions became important then they started to lean towards common platforms...
Per GM at least, “Parts Interchangeability” had already become a somewhat ever-increasing thing across the various divisions of GM by the mid 50’s even… this however, for anyone even slightly familiar with GM cars of the mid 50’s, was rather obviously NOT for major component, subassemblies &/or, specialized contour shaped parts, which then comprised majority parts per division &, often even within separate “series” car parts of same division… it seems as tho this method of overhead cost reduction, really began to increase dramatically by the early 60’s
As Adam stated, too, GM's dropping market share drove much of this as well. They were selling fewer cars so the need to rationalize development costs became more urgent. The front wheel drive A/X platform was the first big step in doing the basic platform engineering on a corporate-wide basis. John DeLorean in On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors wrote that even as early as the late 1960's and early 1970's GM management had begun to see a future where they could no longer bear the costs of letting each division do bespoke development of its own vehicles. Part of the issues with the Vega was that management of the individual divisions did not want a car developed by one of the other divisions. It's a fascinating and, in 2023, incomprehensible way of running a business.
@@seanbatiz6620 Glass was shared cause it's very expensive to develop.
@@seanbatiz6620 It increased by giving each division a compact that under the skin was the same car corporate-wide, for the most part. The regular standard-size cars were slower to move in that direction. Oldsmobile didn't until about 1965, but even then, kept it's own engines.
I was born in 1964, so I had an idea of what went on in the Golden age of the auto industry.. but i really wished I was born sooner to be an actual part of it . Was a fun exciting time in automotive history, for sure.. back when bean counters had a very small role to play in The GM scenario..
such a classy, well spoken, articulate guy...who shares really cool info with us!
I always loved that they had different engines with different characteristics.
Great topic and conversation Adam! I always wondered why GM allowed the divisions to have there own proprietary engine designs. Makes perfect sense. I kind of miss those days when each had its own. Each sounded a little different too, I think.
Absolutely the olds had a more bassy exhaust, Pontiacs seemed to be raspy, Buick seemed to have the quietest sound, Chevy best induction sound under medium to full throttle.
And had different characteristics as well.
There for a number of years in the GM cars you never knew until you raised your hood for the first time what brand of engine was in it. That's when they made a universal bolt pattern that would fit most of the different GM engines bolt patterns. Good Ole Chevys had the same bolt pattern no matter if it was a 6 cyl or a big 454 and if I am not mistaken the LS engines, that everyone is using, has the same pattern that I know started with the 1955, 265 ci if not before. They were the interchangeable part kings of the US, maybe even the world. I remember having an 84 Grand Prix that had a 305 ci (I think) Chevy engine from the factory. The most disappointing engine, power wise, in a Chevy that I had was a 307 ci in a 69 Chevelle. Beautiful car that looked fast sitting still but just no power and it was new. One of the biggest surprises I got, performance wise, was a 1970 Wildcat with a 455 ci. We had a couple different 1/4 mile places on the main hwy back then that everyone was going to go race at one night, We talked a friend into racing his Big Buick Wildcat. We checked under the hood and all the fluids were low so we topped them off and shook the dirt out of the air filter, bought him some gas and I'll be darned if the big ole boat didn't outrun every muscle car there! We had lookouts up and down the race area with the old cb radios to let us know if a smokey was on the way. At the time they all drove the same type cars with reflective striping so you knew it was them. Things were a lot different back then than now. It was a lot like the show Happy days but not nearly as innocent. It was a good era to have grown up in. By the way gasoline was 27.9 cents for regular and 29.9 for no-nox at the time of these events and you also received Top Value stamps with your purchase, your gas was pumped for you, your windshield got washed and your oil checked without even asking.
I produced a case study on this exact subject as a college freshman. The how was driven by brand identity where management encouraged each division to pursue its own market, marketing and components. Those engine plants were there early in their brand lives and continued until economics changed things.
The why was the brand identity was a strong force until economics changed things. When costs had to go, the decision was to carve out specialty engines from each division. Chevrolet had the V8s, certain V6s and the inline 6 plus the 4-cylinder Chevette. Pontiac produced the 2.5L, Oldsmobile did the 307 V8 until 1990 and Buick built the V6. Cadillac was allowed to continue to produce a unique engine and we know how that worked out.
Too bad, as Cadillac's engines before the 80s were Life-time engines. If you took care of them and never burned them up by driving with no water, they would outlast the car, and still be in good condition. Buick straight 8s were almost as good.
@@michaelbenardo5695 There was simply no way those Cadillac engines of yesteryear were going to be able to meet CAFE requirements and weight requirements, though.
You can add Holden Australia to the list, their first V8,s were chev small blocks fully imported from the US but as demand for the v8,s increased they built their own engine in 253 and 308 ci, later a 305 to satisfy race regs. Core engine shared virtually nothing with any other GM v8.
Holden had always intended to use their own V8 for the HK but production delays forced Holden to use a Canadian Chevy V8 instead in its place. Later the Aussie V8 was introduced in the HT range alongside the larger Chevy V8's.
304 actualy.
Don't forget 304cui SOHC 24v in the early 90's that was prototype motor.
Plus the HSV 5.7L Holden V8s in the GTS models before the American Gen III LS1 took its place.
@@scradley05 Would have been better than the Northstar by a country mile.
That was a nice, rational “beancounter” explanation of why the divisions had different engines. I had always thought it was because the divisions were more autonomous than in later years. The divisions seemed to go their own way back then.
I meant no disrespect using the term beancounter, i know you were on the financial side of the business, hence my use of the term.
You should do a video on the GM Dexcool debacle, and their refusal to address, or even admit there was a problem. This effected MILLIONS of cars over two decades.
I have 2 late 90s early 2000 G M engines (including a Northstar) that both got switched to green coolant the day they came off warranty. Dec-cool was horrible, slightest air bubble at the high point of the system and the red mud would begin forming. Conventional product with reasonable change intervals, never even a water pump failure.
Ford 351 Cleveland and 351M (and 400) were actually a common design - the 335 series family. Bellhousing and deck height are different, but heads and block, crank, pistons…all based on common architecture. But I get your point. These engines were developed over time for different applications, and the OEM’s had enough volume to support this approach.
Man Adam you took me back, I still have two flex dwell adjusting tools and a dwell meter, been years, happy times.
We operate our thoroughbred farm with technically antique trucks! We still use our dwell meter and adjusting tools in maintaining them.
I learned a lot in a few minutes. Thanks for sharing your insight. As a GM guy, I always wondered the same. Explain the 307??? Such an odd ball.
Adam's Porch Chats are so good I don't even notice the absence of the porch.
Oh yes. Dad talked about this a lot. He worked at the local garage in the 70's into the 80's. And Dad was a GM fan.
I still have my flexible tool for setting points on Chevy V8's.
One thing I didn’t really see in the comments and having literature at the time was that in California, the emissions were more stringent. I remember reading in the Buick literature for 1977 that while Buick was still making its 350V8, in California, the cars with a 350 came with an Olds 350. Same thing with Pontiac. California Emissions did necessitate different engines. You could not get a Firebird with a Pontiac 400v8, but the olds 403 in California. I also remember when GM downsized their mid-size cars in 1978. Chevy introduced a 229 V6 for the Malibu, except cars in California which used the Buick 231 V6. I’m sure it would have been more confusing for the average listener to hear this, but a small mention of this would have been nice.
That's one of the reasons for why they stayed number one.
Buick had the most different engines, in the Sixties. The 340 being the most short-lived one of them all
Your explanation was spot on! Well done. I believe this was the first time I've ever seen someone attempt to explain GM's logic behind each division having its own specific engines. When I was a young guy, it was only about brand identity though to me and my friends...Bragging rights so to speak, but back then all GM engines were great IMO.
Thanks for your videos adam,i had a couple older brothers who taught me alot of the stuff you often highlight.they are gone now and i like your content because it is relative to the ki d of discussions we oftenhad about older cars we had.thanks again
One other upside to the brands having parallel engineering teams is that it increased GM’s chances for innovation, and some of the best solutions would make their way to all of the divisions.
It also allowed GM to hire a bunch of engineers, keeping them out of Ford and Chrysler’s offices.
The simplest business equation is MONEY DETERMINES OPTIONS. Bean counters rule, which is not a bad thing. My daughter is one of them, and I’m very proud of her.
I father worked for Ingersoll Milling Machines. GM wanted 2 separate lines for the machining of the 3.8L Buick blocks. The reason as I understand it is if a machine tool goes down for a certain period of time then the machine would be replaced with the spare milling machine. That gave maintenance time to fix the milling machine. No other machine tool manufacturer would touch this concept. Ingersoll was known for their world winning specially machine tools.
I have been such a fan ofCadillac and Buick front distributor V-8s especially breaker point engines! Chevrolet, Oldsmobile and Pontiac V-8s with the distributor up against the firewall seemed more difficult to tune-up. And don’t get me talking about my ‘68 Lincoln and the front hinged hood!
I miss the old Pontiac V8s. Had a '79 Trans Am for many years, it had the Olds 403 in it. Wound up having more than a few discussions with counter guys at auto parts stores who were sure it couldn’t have been factory. Their ‘corporate’ engine options at that time, while making economic sense, were still annoying to me - the ‘79 Firebird could have had a 231 Buick V6, a 305 or 350 Chevy V8, a 301 or 400 Poncho V8, or the 403 Oldsmobubble V8. I wish I could have found one with the 400 Pontiac with a 4 speed, but after looking long and hard gave in and got the 403/automatic car.
Yes, and they used to have the shaker hood with 6.6 Litre on it to futher confuse you, or at least make it so it didn't matter if it was a 400 or 403.
@@tomm1109 Actually, that one was easy once you knew this detail - if the shaker scoop said 6.6 LITRE it was the 403 Olds; if it said T/A 6.6 it was the 400 CID Pontiac.
All pontiac v8s were the same block.
Actually, I need to correct this - upon some further reading, apparently the 'T/A 6.6' decal was only for W72 package cars with the 400 Pontiac. Apparently there were others that got the L78 Pontiac 400; they shared the '6.6 LITER' decal with the Olds 403 powered cars. I suspect that there were very few of them, and that the VAST majority of 6.6l cars had the Olds engine, thus my confusion, having never seen a '6.6 LITER' marked car with anything but the Olds.403.
Chrysler had a lot of different V8s once they introduced them in 1951. Not a lot of parts sharing there. But they learned pretty quickly they could use a few different ones to power everything. The wedge engines started that.
Mopar didn't need five tries to get it right.
Still mostly a Bigblock , smallblock heminand bigblock hemi. Later with the poly in everything that even shares loads of parts with the last mopar smallblock :) even the slant 6 shared quite some parts with the bigblock
Because they NEVER got it right.@@craigbenz4835
I used to work in a wrecking yard and it is interesting to note that Buick-Olds-Pontiac and most Cadillac models used the same bellhousing bolt pattern but Chevrolet was different. Similar but different. Other factors were similar, so if you had the proper motor mounts, in general you could put an Olds engine in a Buick or a Cadillac engine in a Pontiac without too much trouble.
Of course the exhaust could be another problem...
As for the Q-jet, there were very significant Differences in Bowl Design, Choke Design, Linkage Hookups, between the Divisions
Very true
The original Q-Jet casting development only cost $750,000 - imagine that spread over 100's of millions of units
Because GM was awesome during those decades. A engineering, production, and marketing marvel.
It was a large corporation that had bought out all those independent makers and made "divisions" out of them. While I'm no fan of large corporations and that tactic, there is no denying there was some smarts behind making it so successful for so long.
It also allowed the division managers and engineers to tailor driving characteristics and gave them some control over quality. The divisions were somewhat competing with each other. And the buyers took pride and were loyal to their brands often times because they liked that divisions engines. Then came 77 Chevymobile controversy. Many people were upset when they found out their new Oldsmobile had a Chevy engine but the air cleaner still stated Oldsmobile V8. Oldsmobile knew their customers wanted Oldsmobile engines.
Always remember each engine has it's own characteristics. Like the Pontiac v8's are great for mid range torque.
Adam your almost at 100k subscribers congrats on that. I have been watching your channel since around 1k subscribers I really looked the content. Please keep this format it works as shown by channel growth.
I appreciate that!
I think what people don't realize is back then people when buying a Ford/Lincoln looked at it as buying a "FoMoCo" product so sharing engines seemed logical. Chrysler products were perceived as being "Mopar" so the engine sharing seemed logical. People buying a Buick or Olds absolutely did not perceive themselves as buying a GM vehicle. GM was a much more loosely associated line of car brands that had even their own engineering for each brand.
Buick 455 was the best! For street level HP, like less than 450hp it was a better motor than the BBC because it was a lot lighter. It also had the biggest bore and stroke of the 454/455s and was the last new BB of the 60s coming out in 67 with new modern tech to make it lighter like having the oil pump, water pump, and distributer in an aluminum unit at the front. The Chevy's with the dist at the back must have been a pain to do the points, especially on a truck.
Do you mean the Buick 455's had a more oversquare ratio compared to the 454's
and as such, fundamentally more of a "racy" engine with less rotating mass?
You have that correct! Points replacement in our 1970 C10 pick up is a pain, especially for a small person such as myself! At times the engine looks like it's having me for lunch as I am completely inside under the hood trying to reach the back distributor.
@@Johnnycdrums yes Johnny, the Buick 455 had a relatively short stroke @ 3.90 inches
The bottom end sucked. And the oiling system was barely adequate.
Great engine until the crankshaft fell out the bottom.
Great, informative chat. I recall test-driving a new 1975 Cutlass Supreme that seemed sluggish and noticeably different from the Olds Omega 350 I had just driven. The engines felt and even sounded different. I thought at the time that the Cutlass was more like a Chevy 350 as I had also been test-driving a number of Chevys w/ 350s, namely Monte Carlo, Malibu and Nova. I ended up with a Camaro with a 350 4bbl. I can remember when GM's engine-swapping got publicly exposed in 1977. It was a PR disaster for GM.
I really didn't understand the true economy of scale during that time period. Thanks for the simple but clear explanation.
Having owned all these engines it wasn't 'til the early 90's I realized what you just conveyed! Had a Pontiac 350 Catalina that got 17 MPG intown, and a '76 Buick 455 that got 17 MPG on the highway, neither making sense to me, along with Chevy SB 400 at 11 MPG HWY! Our whole world is very strange! Also a '70 T-Bird 429 4V @4 MPG/11 MPG, sold it fast!
Pontiac 350 was actually 355cid. In fact, the 301, 326,350,389,400,421,455 all shared the same basic engine block. The 403 was an Olds engine.
That 70 T- bird 429 really get 4mpg? I swapped a 69 429 out of a T-bird and into my 77 Ranchero. It had a 4bbl carb too. I was getting about 10 mpg loaded/towing a trailer or empty. I did have pretty high freeway gears in the rear axle 3:00.
Something had to be wrong with that T-Bird. I knew someone with the even larger 460 in a large and in charge Lincoln Continental and it got better than that.
The 429 needed a straw directly attached to a gas pump at all times but it was possibly the smoothest V8 Ford ever made. The torque in the T-Birds with 429s were like turbines and sooooooo quiet
By the time of the 350 small block and 455 big blocks GMs were beating Ford and Chrysler products at highway gas mileage that served them well in the seventies. Their engines barely turned on the highway.
Excellent presentation of the facts. Very personal approach while bringing the facts. You literally explained more than just your intended topic, it also explains why the independent manurfactures time was numbered due to the olds, Cadillac V8 OHV and GMs overall spending plans for the 50's. Very nice sir.
Thank you Adam for the most thorough, easy to understand explanation to a question I’ve always pondered.
Some of the divisions also used to have their own transmissions too, the 1953 hydramatic factory fire meant that dynaflow and powerglide units had to be substituted until willow run was online
What always suprised me was all the variations in displacement each division had in their v8 lineup.
Their cars were of different sizes and weights. A Cadillac was a huge and heavy car, the big Buick, (4 holes per side), was almost as big and heavy. The Olds 98 a little less so, the Pontiac was a lighter car. The Chevy was the "baby", the smallest and lightest by quite a bit.
The funny one is why Ford had so many V8 engines.
From 1954 through 1977 you could have had the Y block, the FE, the Windsor - Fairlane V8, the 351 Windsor which was a different block, the 400 modified - 351 modified,, the Cleveland,, and the 385 series 429 and 460s,, all different engines...
Because engineering and technology is constantly advancing!
@@jeffmiller3150 Ture but if you bought a Chevy in the same time frame you got a small block Chevy or a big block Chevy with a lite sprinkling of 348's and 409's....
@@2packs4sure Except the small journal to large journal change in the small block in the 60's. Or the 305 vs 350 non-interchangable anything internal (also the vortec heads in the 90's have a unique intake bolt pattern). Plus the unique 400 small block... Or the short deck 396/403/427/454 vs the tall deck 366/427. But other than being completely different they were all the "same" LOL.
What was Ford's last FE passenger car?
@@craigbenz4835 I'm not absolutely sure, 70 or 71 I think...
Clear and concise video! Just another reason I subscribed to this fantastic channel. Cheers.
I bought a Chevrolet back in the early 80s that the previous owner had swapped in a Buick 350, and I was amazed at how willing that engine was to rev up. I thought of Buick as a low RPM luxury yacht engine, but in a Malibu it scooted along nicely.
Jeep used 350 Buick engines . I had a pickup with one in it i liked it but it had more low end power than a Chevy 350. I sold it to a guy that put a chevy in it i got to drive after that. I think out of all the 350s the Chevy had less low end torque .
@@dougpersell8776 The Buick 350 had a much smaller bore size of 3.80 and a longer stroke of 3.85 which explains the torque difference. SBC depend upon Rpms for HP while giving up torque...
I think that there was a level of inter-division competition and pride amongst the different brands that helped to foster the best design and differentiation in their vehicles. Think about the differences between the original 1960's Corvair, Tempest, F-85 and Special. All the same platform but with very different engine choices.
Each GM division's engines had their advantages and disadvantages. The Pontiac 455 was the same basic block design as the 350, although with larger journals. This meant that the 455 heads were also size constrained, unlike the 454 Big Block Chevys (Rat), and had smaller valve sizes. The Chevy could make more power, especially with modifications, but it had worse throttle response. There was also incredible diversity within each division, with Chevrolet, Pontiac, Oldsmobile and Buick each producing high performance versions of their cams, heads and valvetrains. The Chevelle SS, GTO, 442, and Buick GSX each had fans that claimed their car was fastest, or better in real world street racing.
Also, I applaud you for having fresh content for each video - unlike "some" who re-upload old videos and present them as fresh content.
The Oldsmobile 260 V8 came out in 1975. It beat the 305 Chevy, 301 Pontiac to the tiny V8 thing of the late 70’s. Then Ford, Chevy, and Pontiac would later around 1980 release similar small 2xx engines.
When you get to 1M Subscribers you could organize a car meet and greet so we can all do in person what we do in this comment section on every video!
If I get there…sure!
Gen 1 350 with Vortec iron heads is the engine to love.
Okay.
Buick introduced its famous eight-cylinder engines in 1930 model year. Engineers worked on maximizing parts interchangeability in the three new engines, but management ordered that not a single part should interchange among them.
GM did allow some engine sharing. Way back in the 1930s, LaSalle used Oldsmobile engines. The 1961-63 BOP senior compacts shared the 215 ci V8 ( which would be sold to British Leyland ).
But to big reasons to me is by the 1960s, GM would allow the Divisions to compete with each other! Plus, a policy til the 1970s that let the Divisions have more autonomy. ( Example: GM developing 3 distinct automatic transmissions. Oldsmobile,Cadillac, & Pontiac using Hydra-Matic. Buick developing Dynaflow. And Chevrolet developing Powerglide & later Turboglide ).
Another way to show this is how the Divisions would overlap each other. Two examples: The 1958 Chevrolet Bel Air Impala ( it was advertised as such! ) pushed Chevrolet into Pontiac's turf. The Buick Special only cost a few dollars more than " The Low-Priced Three ". So successful was the Special, Buick kicked Plymouth out of 3rd place in annual production for 1954-1956.
Thanks for all the insight! I always wondered why GM did it different than everyone else with engines but would share the rest of the driveline.
Ford had 4 351 engines , a 351 Cleveland, 351 Windsor, 351 Midland/Modified and the 352 FE Big Block , all the same size at 352 cubic inches , the only reason the small and mid blocks were designated 351 was to set them apart from the big block 352 FE but they were all the same size internally .
In Australia, GM Holden even made a cast Iron V8 with the same bore centre spacing as a SBC that was just 450 lbs & had valve gear like a Pontiac or Olds, I forget which
A great explanation. I was always puzzled and thought that it was simply a case of rivalry between divisions.
"Not that many nice days in the Midwest." That's about 100% true. It's either as hot and humid as southeast Asia or as cold and harsh as Siberia.
I wondered about this for years. I had it explained to me that the divisions of GM liked to have some degree of autonomy despite being a part of the same corporation. The downside was it created some infighting and rivalries between the divisions. Ford had very little autonomy. They just had a different philosophy. Eventually the cost of all these engines across GM just became too high so they had to consolidate their drivetrains.
As James Carville said many years ago "Why does a dog lick its private parts? Because it can." I was surprised to learn recently that there was an Oldsmobile version of Buick's famous 215 cu inch aluminum V8, partly to allow the engines to be assembled on both Buick and Oldsmobile assembly lines, the Olds version also had different heads with more bolts. I don't know what else was different between the two, but they were said to have almost identical displacements, so the cylinder dimensions were probably the same. I suppose any number of things one expects to find on an engine assembly line, bits, taps, etc. had to be accommodated and each division must have had a substantial investment in equipment dedicated to its own designs. I'm sure all this made GM a more interesting place, but it must have been nerve-wracking coordinating 5 divisions, each with its own unique baggage.
The blocks were the same, except for the number of head-bolt holes, but the heads were indeed different. The Olds version had the most power and revved the highest.
The Oldsmobile version of the 215 was used as the basis of the Repco-Brabham F1 engine, as I recall.
James Carville: what an interesting and quick-witted man! Just before the 1992 Presidential election, Dan Rather asked him about Governor Clinton's chances "if" this happens, "but" that could also happen. Carville dismissed the whole thing by saying. "Well, you know, Dan Rather, if "ifs" and "buts" were beer and nuts, we'd have one hell of a party!" SO funny, and one of the best lines all year!
In the 70's no only were GM's sales decline but increasing emissions and fuel economy regulations were both: increasing the engineering and testing costs for each engine, while increasing the frequency with which engine designs had to be replaced or extensively modified. Thus the fixed costs suddenly became more significant.
Another consideration that drove GM to consolidation of power plants was the EPA emissions certification and Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) requirements. The cost of research to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy for the myriad of engines, plus the certification of all with the government was prohibitive. I did some work in that field during that time (1970s).
An Olds mechanic showed me a 72 Delta 88 with a Pontiac 350 engine. My neighbor had a 78 Buick Electra with an Olds 350 engine. Both that way from the factory.
GM was able to get their divisions to have their own fans due to the fact that each division had their own engines. And as you stated, power output and red line helped make each division different from each other performance-wise.
As you also stated, GM had very high market shares during those times, so they had plenty of money to produce.
CAFE standards, the stages in vehicle downsizing, and cuts in model lineups would most likely also have connections to GM's decision to stop their brands from producing so many engines and begin using a single engine produced by one division in most other divisions. Think of how common the Chevy 350, Chevy 305, and Buick 3.8 eventually became across the entire company.
But it helped ruin GM. Why by a Buick if it is identical to a Chevy, but costs a lot more money?
I grew up with all these engines and finally got the answer as to why ! Possibly there was a little competition between the divisions also that caused the various engine designs which could then be compared to each other.
Thank You Adam... you put into perspective why GM did what it did. Although, could you find out why GM choose to end the Pontiac V-8? I feel it was one of the greatest engines ever produced. Thank You Adam.
The Buick 350 is one of the very few Under Square v-8s . So that would keep it from being a High reving engine.
I love your porch chats. I learned so much from this video, thanks.
In the late 70s my dad had an Olds 88 with a 455 and a Buick LeSabre, also with a 455. Pretty much the same car, with the same Gear Ratio. They certainly were different in how they accelerated, from a Light, or by using Passing Gear.
I had a '73 Olds 88 4-dr and a '73 Buick 225 Limited. The Olds acceleration didn't impress me, but the Buick did. That said, the Olds was in some ways a nicer car.
Great discussion Adam. Another aspect of brand difference was the brand legacy established before the individual companies became part of GM to preserve brand loyalty.
Or I have the 1981 Pontiac Bonneville with the Oldsmobile 307 with the 200-4R transmission and the 1985 Caprice with the Chevrolet 305 with the 700 R4 transmission. One of the last holdouts i think of GM using 2 different engines with nearly the same displacement.
Adam I absolutely love your channel, great content and expert level delivery. You're an excellent communicator.
Just found your channel. Great information and delivery . Congratulations when you get to 100k subscribers , I’m sure it will be soon !
Welcome aboard!
What I always wondered was why there was a Chevy Bellhousing bolt pattern, and A different one for all the other divisions. And they only moved 2 bolt holes. You could swap them if you left 2 bolts out.
In Australia in the 60’s we got Pontiacs equipped with Chevrolet small block engines.
Canadian built.
Fascinating explanation for a question I’ve always had. So why rationalize in ‘77 to go to “corporate” standard engines all painted generic blue? Not enough scale in divisions like Pontiac anymore to justify the cost?
Correct. And costs were becoming a problem.
One factor that you have left out is the origin of all of these different engines. Each division of GM had previously been an independent brand that had all of their own specific engines and characteristics. Buick, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, and Cadillac all had been independent brands previous to having been incorporated into GM. Each also had their own customer base that had their own loyalty factor. They bought specific brands because of personal preferences. GM did not want to alienate that customer base - at least in the early days.
Agreed. But would argue that wasn’t really a factor by the 1960s. The brands had been integrated for decades by that point.
@@RareClassicCars Wasn't it? Why else would GM keep each brand to be unique and stick mostly to it's traditions? Back in the late 1960s, I was working in a buick dealership. Make no mistake - a Buick customer was forever a Buick customer. Each brand had it's unique characteristics, and going from a Buick to a Chevrolet was much like going from a Buick to a Ford or Chrysler.
@@jimgarofalo5479 - No self-respecting 1960’s Buick owner would buy a Chevrolet. The Chevys were for peasants …
an even more perplexing issue with all the engines GM had was that they reused iconic engine code names for engines.
Example; LS6, LS7, LT1, etc.
They had some of the most iconic V8’s in history but chose, later on, to name their modern engines the same. With literally an infinite amount of options to name their engines with numeric/letter codes, they chose to diminish the image of earlier iconic engines.
Don’t get me wrong, the modern LS series engines are iconic themselves, but when one refers to an engine as “LS6”, it should be immediately clear what power plant they are referring to.
I feel like I’m back in college. Great video!
Thanks again Adam. Subjects that could go on and on. I will make a point that some of the mid 80's Caprice wagons were equipped with the Oldsmobile 307. Strange how random brand placement was. As if there was a gumball machine filled with random V8 engines on the assembly lines and whatever plopped out is what the next car in the line got
Olds heads have spark plugs that are on top and away from exhaust manifold. No burn’t wires or long wire routing like Chevy. Also unique rocker hold downs that bolted down. Tighten to ~40lbs and lash set for valves. 350 and 455 would swap with no modifications. Motor mounts linkages etc etc. Miss my olds.
Those Buicks had oiling issues. Great explanation Adam, totally educational and informative!!
This was an awesome
Video. It’s crazy how back then GM could do this and still make money. Crazy how things have changed today.
Never understood why Ford didn’t put the little points adjustment window in their distributor cap? One of my favorite GM engines was the early 60’s Buick nailhead 401 , beautifully balanced and made excellent power in upper rev band. Dynaflows didn’t do it any favors but overall a great motor 👍🏼 great video as always.
Ahh... could it be that GM had a patent on the Distributor Cap with the point adjustment window.....???
In 1966, you could get a Chevrolet Chevelle with a choice between two different six-cylinder engines (194ci or 230ci) and three different V8s (283ci, 327ci and 396ci). I don't think the 427 was offered in a Chevelle until later..
the 427 was never a factory option for the Chevelle, unless possibly via a COPO order... 1970 was the first year for 454 Chevelles
@@anthony221956 ('69 COPO 427) but what's amazing to me is how many engines were offered.. if I had a 396 back then, I wouldn't be alive now!
Thanks for the great video. Ford played a similar game with lots of V8 offerings across the Ford, Mercury, and Lincoln lines. They are: 221, 239, 256, 260, 272, 289, 292, 302, 312, 332, 351W, 351C, 351M, 352, 361, 383, 390, 400, 406, 410, 427, 428, 429, 430, 460, and 462. Someone please let me know if I left something out.
360 pick-up truck engine. I think they had a 370 and a 391 for the medium duty trucks at some point.
You’re correct in that they made a lot of different engines. However, many of those engines were the same family and could be made using the same machinery example the 221, 260, 289, 302, and 255 shared the same design. The 351w was ALMOST the same. Then you had the 351C,351 M, and 400 that were very similar. The 332, 312, 352, 360, 361, 390,427, 428 were similar, the 370, 429, and 460 were similar. Some of these were truck engines.There were other families as well, I just don’t know off the top of my heads which belonged together. But concurrently, only the 351 had two completely different engines of the same displacement.
I can add a few. Ford brought out a 136 in 1937. It was mainly used in Europe even up into the 60's. The 337 was used in Lincoln & Ford trucks from 1949 to 1951. The 279 & 317 were used in Ford trucks from 1952 to 1955 & the 317 may have been used in Lincoln. The 221 started out as a flathead in 1932 & it later showed up as an 221 OVH in 1960. There could be more.
@@n.mcneil4066 yes when compared to GM, in general Lincoln and Mercury engines tended to different from their Ford counterparts of the same year only in displacement. I think some of the 1960s era Lincoln's may have used design exclusive to them. It was the 462. But that was the exception rather than the rule in the modern era. But for the most part you could install the Mercury addition of an engine in a Ford of the same year with no modifications. But the GM engines we're completely different from one another depending on the division.
Oh, I can add a few more Ford V8's. The was the Ford Super Duty series from the late 50's to1975 which included the 401. 477. & 535. Also, during the 70's I ran across a huge 383 which I was told came from a Mercury. I'm not sure what year though. t
Each division of GM had it's own customer base before they joined GM. It had more to do with customer loyalty. The competition between divisions just made them all better. But when the EPA started cracking down on emissions the search was on for the cleanest burning engines. As dirty engines were phased out they were replaced with cleaner engines from other divisions on the assembly line. That's the short version from me. Formerly Mr Goodwrench. Thanks for showing us the math!
Going into the depression there were huge numbers of car companies. Even in the 50s, Nash, Packhard, Studebaker were around. Willys, Kaiser. A lot more competition. Name plate engineering would'nt have worked.
Mostly true.