For us old folks I think it's what we remember when we were younger the sound of the records the surface noise I don't want to go back to that I had over 3000 album's and I loved them but I'll never go back I'm happier with CDs thank you it's your choice you and only you can decide
I agree with Paul that digital is very close to vinyl nowadays. I recently added a tube-based DAC to my system and it made the music warm and emotional. Although vinyl still has it IMO.
Very interesting. I’m a vinyl guy. I only listen to digital when I’m lazy or to listen to a stream to decide if I want to purchase the vinyl album. To me, putting on a vinyl album is satisfying. Vinyl sounds, well, more human. We humans are not perfect, although some will try to put up a argument,😆, and neither is vinyl. That human connection is what tugs at our heart strings ❤️.
I grew up with Vinyl and my dad was an audiophile. I had albums and listened to my dads system a lot. As soon as I could afford my own system, I went digital & didn't even think about going back. I'm now wondering about getting back into it, as I get older myself, just for my favourite albums.
As a younger guy who didn't get to design analog and now have to learn to code vst's, this channel gives me big hope that analog is always gonna be around!
Music is art. Paul, bless his heart, is an engineer. Better, for him, is through his lens and is not a fact. Better is always for each of us to decide.
Another thing to note is that vinyl’s magic can be experienced with even a modest set-up. Paul alludes to digital having “come close”, but these are generally DACs in the 5 figures - and they still don’t.
You can get a DAC like the SMSL SU-1 which is objectively, measurably fully transparent and only costs 75$ 75$ doesn't even buy you a mediocre cartridge, let alone a good vinyl setup
Why choose. I get great enjoyment from good music, well executed, whether I use my turntable, CD transport, or streamer as a source. I'm cleaning a lot of my vinyl collection of jazz and classical music right now and I'm enjoying rediscovering its magic ( and shortcomings) all over again. Last month I was mostly streaming and enjoying the music a great deal. I'm always pulling out CDs and enjoying more good music from the music I've collected over the years. Why choose when gifted musicians, talented recording and mixing engineers, and good electronics allows us to have it all.
I agree with Paul that digital has improved. I have switched between vinyl and digital over many years and although I still have a turntable, I predominantly listen to digital as I believe the gap has closed, meaning that it’s possible to have the emotional connection associated with vinyl. It’s taken a long time and a significant investment to get to this point so that begs the question, how much more needs to be spent on a digital system than a turntable and associated equipment to achieve that connection.
I dont know why, but this conversation reminded me of the early LaserDisc technology which actually encoded video and audio as an analouge signal. Early LaserDiscs featured in 1978 were entirely analog but the format evolved to incorporate digital stereo sound in CD format (sometimes with a TOSlink or coax output to feed an external digital-to-analog converter or DAC), and later multi-channel formats such as Dolby Digital and DTS. Similar to the CD versus LP sound quality debates common in the audiophile community, some videophiles argue that LaserDisc maintains a "smoother", more "film-like", natural image while DVD still looks slightly more artificial. Early DVD demo discs often had compression or encoding problems, lending additional support to such claims at the time. The video signal-to-noise ratio and bandwidth of LaserDisc are substantially less than those of DVDs, making DVDs appear sharper and clearer to most viewers. I just wanted to add this into the conversation. The physicality of comminicating information on the medium seems to add a "lived experience" when delivered from the medium, as if to say "This is a story from my lived memory" .. Thanks Paul and everyone in the Audio scene.
I'm immensely proud of my dad, who got the patent for RCA's CED videodisk system back in 1960. But, the product that hit the market 20 years later was a kludgy glitchy mess. Like vinyl, CED got the job done with the technology available at the time, but they're crude and unrefined compared to modern technologies.
Oh yes, vinyl indeed does (when your setup suddenly, for whatever reason you have done right, kicks in). The Stellar Power Plant P3 helped me a lot by giving me constant results, I could build upon.
I've wondered if it is the RIAA curve itself which is appealing to humans. It's zero point (where there is no compression) is at 1000Hz, which is in the middle of the human voice range and what audiophiles think of as the "midrange" of their system. By reducing fidelity at the extremes and preserving fidelity around the human voice, the RIAA curve is perhaps playing into our brain's need to connect to human sounds. Digital, with its excellent LF reproduction, and with contemporary systems very good HF, is forcing us to hear things we have not evolved to care much about.
Fascinating hypothesis. Perhaps there is a separate force at play that makes digital repulsive. I think there can be a digital edge that the brain finds irritating. We saw that in early CD players. The best DACs today sound very analogue and approach vinyl in satisfaction. Perhaps these two forces combine to drive people to vinyl as their passion system. I personally have never been attracted to vinyl and am happy in my ignorance.
RIAA has nothing to do with compression. It has to do with relative values based on frequency to take advantage of the non-linear response of a magnetic coil based transducer, the magnetic cartridge. As with all inductors/ coils, the output goes up as the rate of change increases, IOW for the same stylus travel distance, the higher the frequency, the faster the the stylus moves, the higher the output. Higher frequencies require less groove modulation than lows for the same output level. So RIAA spec'd filters reduce the relative sensitivity of the phono stage at the hinge point and above. Not compression. The actual reduction in fidelity comes, is required for digital conversion. Low pass often brick wall filters for limiting high frequencies.
What a brilliant topic! And I have to agree... just something about the sound from vinyl that digital and even magentic tape can never do. I would prefer vinyl any day. CD quality is not an absolute requirement to truly enjoy music the way its best enjoyed.
@@mikeeaglesham Yes discs come from an analog SUB master of the 2 track master. They would not use the 2 track master to protect it. Just as they would then take that 2 channel master and make a sub master in order to make 3rd gen sub masters as sources for the 4th gen sub, sub, sub tapes that you would buy. Possibly even another generation before the open real tape that is sold. Discs are sourced from 2 - 3 generations earlier subs than retail open real.
@glenncurry3041 A master tape does not just mean one tape, there can be multiple tapes, one or more for storage, others for use. Some Premium but expensive analogue vinyl companies press from master tapes. Best of course is no tape, direct to disk like Sheffield Labs and others, but that comes with one take problems. Accentus Music was my latest acquisition DTD all analogue New World Symphony.
@mikeeaglesham yet there is just something special about vinyl! From removing that LP from its folder, making sure its dust free, placing it onto that platter, lowering the stylus and just listening to rhat special quality in the sound! Never gets old or easily replaced.
@@mikeeaglesham "Master", There is a reason it is given that name. "SUB-master" also very specifically named this for a reason. NO there is only ONE Master! Any COPIES for "storage, others to use" are not Masters, they are copies, at best sub masters. Yes D to D is best. I repped many labels when they first came out in the '70's.
I am a sacd and cd listener. Vinyl has a nostalgia that brings up old emotions from our past. Maybe like perfume or other smells activates some part of our brain with comfort circuitry.
Ears are analog. Our brain is complex, but it is also analog. That doesn't explain why vinyl had the effect it did on the letter writer, but may be a start.
I built my first system based on advice from an audio engineer friend of mine who was adamant that accuracy and transparency was the most important factor so set up a streaming system with a digital amp around 600w with room correction. It was certainly accurate and resolving but exactly as Magnus said, just didn't grab me. I then swapped out the amp for a tube amp and moved to a turntable, and have never looked back. Vinyl is compromised, it's unperfect in every factor, it's work to flip sides, it's work to clean, it's work to preserve the covers, and maintain the needle, yet despite all of that, it rocks my boat in a way that digital never ever achieved. I would never go back to digital in any form.
I've never heard digital room correction that worked properly. I agree about vinyl, I don't believe digital will ever get there, too much processing. Analogue throughout is much simplier and generally straightforward.
I recently reconnected the family vinyl record player and played the records I'd got to know as a kid and teenager. I immediately recognised the signature of pops and scratches and it was very nostalgic listening to, let's have a look... Pet Sounds because the precice irregularities of each vinyl revord have become buried deeply imto my memory. So each record is unique... it almost makes me wonder whether to give them a deep clean or leave them as is if it scrubs away that signature.
A huge thank you to ‘Magnus in Sweden……’. I had never heard of Jeffrey Martin & I just searched Tidal & if there is one thing I am doing tomorrow it’s finding the Digs In The Daylight LP. Wow, I am lucky enough to have put together a system that by pure chance was absolutely craving the Vinyl sound, a mix of Accuphase, PrimaLuna Mono’s & Bowers & Wilkins so zi decided to ‘Scratch the Vinyl Itch’ & this artist is going to blow me away when I hear him on my system. So much so that I am going to avoid putting it through my Auralic Transport Streamer because this needs to be heard on vinyl. Thanks Paul & thanks Magnus! I simply can’t wait to wake up! I guess ‘that’s’ what vinyl does, I love streaming because it’s precision perfection on the right system but there are harmonics, tones & guitar tones that linger in a room with vinyl. My streaming system is ‘close’ but Vinyl is starting to show me there’s more. I’m loving this addition, on a basic Rega Planar 3 Nd5 cart, with a Rega NEO Psu & simple Rega Fono Mk5………. Magic, I won’t be discarding my Chord DAC anytime soon but I’m discovering vinyl & loving it….. the search for the brilliantly mastered tracks & superbly manufactured vinyl is part of the buzz. But it’s a pain in the butt 😂…… like having a Cat, you become a slave to it, can’t just chuck money at it, you have to learn the ‘Why’ ‘how’ & ‘what’ & you have to do it all yourself to understand lol.
Great video, Paul (as always). I often compare the sound of vinyl to "umami". It's an almost indescribable savoriness (to steal a descriptor from another sense).
I believe it has something to do with the creation of the electronic signal. A D/A chip vs. coils & magnets. The signal on a turntable is created the same way a microphone creates a signal, coils and magnets.
Vinyl. Emotional. Yeah. This just proves what I've observed for years and years. Guys like distortion. They love it. And - as you point out - noise. Blasting distortion and noise. It's why all of these honchos go ape wild over horns. And, crap vinyl. Rock on.
I do like running my dac into a tube preamp vs directly into tube power amp. It does sound better to me. I have a switch to go back and forth, so its instant. Not saying its more accurate than direct but it sounds better to me and most who ive checked it with.
I think that's also a reason some people like vintage gear. also there is a warmth in the mid-range that needs to be added to digital, at least for me which i do.
My favorite record is my JVC Supervinyl half speed master of Neil Diamonds Johnathon Livingston Seagull. Wish I had those for my Moody Blues Days of Futire Past, all my Alan Parsons Project and everything done by Enya. I would be in heaven.
I love vinyl, and up to a few years ago I never played anything else. However, with the ever-increasing price of vinyl recently, I stopped buying it and started buying CDs instead. I decided if I wanted to go over to listening to more CDs, then I needed to improve my CD setup. I decided to go for Cyrus Signature CD XT Transport, Cyrus Signature Pre-amp / Dual mono DAC, with the power supply, and Cyrus Stereo 200 Power Amp. All I can say is, I enjoy it every bit as much as my £6K vinyl setup.
….the speaker arrangement was, I thought, interesting also. Those Signature 3a’s were diagonally placed at opposite coners, with the Ohm 3000 towers very nearly centered in the room… a special moment I’ll never forget!
If your vinyl has surface noise, then either: -- Your records are not clean. -- Your cartridge / tone-arm is not professionally aligned (few people have them aligned, including dedicated vinyl lovers and channels devoted to audio bliss). It takes the right tools, special skills (which comes with experience), knowing all of the vectors that must be set (few people know them all), the patients to sit there for, perhaps, a couple of hours to get it right, and a good ear. In fact, just to dial in the stylus's azimuth, you need a special vinyl pressing that is designed for that singular purpose. How many people own that pressing? How many people even know that they need that pressing and an oscilloscope to get the azimuth dialed in with precision? If any of numerous vectors are out of alignment, no matter how slightly, then your stylus will rub where it should not be rubbing, and you will hear that rubbing as surface noise. However, if you play clean records, on a professionally dialed in turntable, you will virtually eliminate surface noise. And then there is feedback (vibrations from the speakers that reach your stylus), that most folks have and are not aware that they have. When there is only slight feedback, most people will not notice it -- unless they were to hear an A / B comparison. I learned this the hard way. I have an HRS equipment rack. I was able to play my vinyl loud, and I never heard feedback (or so I thought). Then I added an additional layer of vibration control, under my turntable. Everything got better. Everything was noticeably more focused. It is hard to get vinyl to sound really good. So I do not blame anyone that thinks that digital is better -- because, for all practical matters, digital does sound better. ----- Digital, by and large, is not better than vinyl -- although it has the potential to be better than vinyl. Most digital is plagued with jitter. If you did not purchase a dedicated, quality, stand-alone transport, then you have jitter. As good as your digital sounds, it would sound noticeably better without the jitter that you do not realize that you have. Also, studios do a mostly sub-par job in creating digital files. So no matter how state-of-the-art your digital front-end might be, you are at the mercy of the clods in the studios (many of whom believe that lossy mp3 files are just fine). At their best, both digital and vinyl go toe-to-toe in the sound quality arena. But digital is far simpler to achieve very good sound quality, and also costs far less to achieve very good sound quality. Hence, so many people believe that digital sounds better. Then add in convenience, and no wonder most people prefer digital over vinyl.
Over the years, I've gone from wanting ever more resolution ( which usually meant I wanted a starker sound ) to wanting grace, fluidity and human warmth in the notes. To that end, while sticking with digital, I did the following; 1. Brought an Ayon DAC player which uses a tube output. Every review I read stated it doesn't sound digital. It doesn't. 2. Brought dedicated CD and streaming transports to maximize isolation of digital circuitry from noise. 3. Brought a tube pre and changed the tubes to Mullards 4. Got the best mains-cleaning gear I could afford. 5. Switched entirely to copper cables. 6. Instead of buying expensive cables, I brought a half dozen Chinese power leads, a half dozen speaker cable and a dozen interconnects, kept the ones which randomly sounded warmest and richest to me then sold off the others. I lost a little money but now had a cable loom which suits me down to the ground. 7. Got rid of all metal from my rack set up by buying a wooden TV stand and used bamboo chopping boards, sitting on top of marble chopping boards ( with the polished side downwards ) which meet the top of ceramic ball bearings, which sit in the concavities of glass golf ball holders. Now, I have a handful of complaint shelves which have minimal contact points to transmit vibration through from the TV stand. In between the marble and bamboo chopping boards are laid a metal mesh ( designed to keep out rats ) which absorbs RF radiation from the equipment's transformers. ( similar to the Athena shelves by Entreq ) The mesh is connected by alligator clips to earth drains. 8. I extensively grounded the gear through Entreq Macro kits and put Entreq Magma footers between components and the shelves. Each one of these undertakings serves to reduce 'digititus' in my system, adding naturalness and tonal grace. In the afternoons, when the mains quality is poor, my system is merely 'excellent,' with a high degree of tonal and micro-dynamic shading, warmth and a rich resonance to notes, although that last, nth degree of tonal grace is still lacking. In the late evenings, when the mains is far better here in London, the system becomes glorious and I am finally beyond any real critical listening since I am captivated by the music. My only ( unfair ) criticism left is that my system can never match the dynamics and scale of a real world event. I've heard high-end vinyl in friends' systems and mine gets very close in naturalness, richness and warmth but also delivers deeper bass and a black background. Plus I can switch albums with my cell phone! I don't know if all my innovations are adding colouration or noise. It certainly sounds natural and real. Either way, I no longer care. I'm happy, after thirty years of doing it all wrong. Anyway, a few pointers as to how a human and musical sound can be derived via digital, if you are willing to give up the hunt for nth-degree resolution and ultra-low SINAD figures which is what most modern, chip-based digital seems to be about . HTH.
New turntables and components today are all designed to sound like what digital doing best - neutrality and data retrieval. I was like lot of comments here ‘oh digital comes very close to vinyl these days’. Not until I went back to OG spec of TT/amplifiers/speakers from 70s 80s and found the real charm of vinyl. You know what, the newer generations (included myself) were born in a period that CDs/MP3s were the mainstream format, that we got used to thin, cold and fatiguing sound that pretended to be ‘high-res’. (Tho digital done right could be very enjoyable like vinyl - but it is rare) To sell new equipments and get on to wave of vinyl revival hifi producers got to follow this habit. And define the old equipments as inferior. But the enjoyment of vinyl from good old days is otherworldly. As Paul said not as revealing but much more enjoyments.
Paul hints at something here that I have been pondering the implications of: vinyl playback surface noise constitutes an explicitly “live” component that is mixed with the recorded material during playback, a “real” component psychoacoustically processed by the mind along with the recorded music. In my own digital listening experience, I find recordings containing other “real” flaws (mic feedback, amp hum, tape recorder noise) to heighten the live emotion.
Can‘t agree more. I do love my digital system with your Direct Stream DAC MKII but my Thorens TD 550 is so different. I love both, but if I had to choose I‘d go for my vinyl system
Its probably true, its effectively the distortion that is enjoyable to so many. I get that. So that also means, you could convert a vinyl record in to an uncompressed digital wav/flac file and it should have the same emotion as the original. I've done this and I believe it does too, IMO Digital records simply what is there.
I have a theory about why analog sound, whether through vinyl, slightly noisy tape, or FM radio, feels so magical, even when the original recording was digital. This effect is especially noticeable with multitrack recordings. Multitrack recording is, after all, inherently unnatural, involving separate takes with acoustically distinct, unrelated tracks. Analog formats like vinyl add a layer of noise and a unique sound signature, which seem to blend these disparate tracks into a cohesive whole. This effect, I believe, is a kind of psychoacoustic process. I remember, back when CDs were new, recording a copy of Heart’s Horizon by Al Jarreau onto my tape deck-a simple Akai with quite a bit of noise. To my surprise, the tape version sounded “better”-more analog, warmer, and even more emotional than the original CD. So maybe it’s that subtle mix of imperfections, like noise and texture, even pleasant distortion (!), that makes analog sound come alive, turning even digital recordings into something that feels more real and unified.
Off topic! Just watched the ARTE documentary of the Festival in 1972 and said to me "Hey you know this guy!" Was great to listen to your stories eg when the Pink floyd guy pulled the plug😊 to stop your record. Greetings from nearby, I live 15 miles away from Insel Gruen!
When I switched to digital years ago I could immediately tell how that RIAA playback curve colored the music. It unaturally blunts the "edge" of the sound and muddles the middle. I guess this could charitably be looked at as "warmer" I found out the only way to get rid of what compression does is to not apply it in the first place.
Using your photography metaphor, I would say an iphone camera is digital, a film camera is akin to vinyl and Fuji digital cameras, both the experience of using them - as well as their jpeg/film'ish simulations of actual Fujifilm look - is akin to that middle ground.
….my own theory in resolving the conundrum involves the engineering ideas of Richard Vandersteen’s “Dimensionl Purity” and the continuing work of John Strohbeen of Ohm Acoustics. The late, reveered Lincoln Walshs’ omnidirectional propagation, and the performance of Vandersteen’s Signature 3a speakers in a system I encountered many years ago, that left my eyes welling with astonished joy. Just how one Luxman A-3300 preamp, and two Hafler TransNova-9505s held me levitated in sheer nirvana was an experience I haven’t encountered since. And they were only tracks by ELO, on some compilation disc, played albeit, on a Philips LHH 1000! (Whatever formulas Philips used in their conversion, it was amazingly smooth, and analog sounding ESPECIALLY through that amplification chain.🌹✨☀️
Since the birth of digital, we have been trying to answer this question. The answer is different for each person. I recently visited my local stereo store and was listening to some very fine Totem Winds speakers on a upper middle level digital system. It was sounding good to my ears, all the notes were there and were clearly easy to hear. Sitting on the shelf was a 40 year old Linn Sondek with a few mods but not state of the art by any means. I asked the rep to try that. Wham, music happened. PRAT as the Brits would say, color, tone, but it was swingin. I think digital appeals to the logical side you your brain and analog to the emotional.
I do remember reading an article from a sound laboratory in Canada some 15 + years ago regarding this. If I remember correctly, it was discovered that tape and vinyl along with other componentry tested, was producing upper harmonics that were pleasing to the brain. I cant remember if it was odd or even order harmonics. Likewise the digital equipment at the time of research was doing the opposite and producing frequencies that were irritating to the brain and also the nervous system. Maybe someone has that article floating around somewhere...?
I think some of that comes down to the power supply. Most digital equipment uses SMPS's, which have their own sound. I have found that pieces of wood on or against all the capacitors in P.S.'s help to reduce tiny vibrations in them, and that produces a more 'non digital' sound IMHO. Just keep wood away from metal, that takes away from the sound quality, also IMHO. I have done that with my 2 P3 Regens (now are out of warranty, of course), and it transformed my sounds!
It's always a contentious question and people feel passionate on both sides. I think Paul has something when he says that digital can seem too clean and devoid of all background noise to some people making it almost sterile. Paul would never recommend it as it goes against everything an audiophile stands for but some folk have found that fitting a 'tube buffer' between their DAC and amplifier introduces just enough 'warmth' - basically slightly non linearity and noise , to recreate that sweet sound. These can be bought online from eBay and Amazon for very low cost. I've not used one myself but may have said it's done just the job. I personally prefer digital sound overall but certainly get plenty of enjoyment from vinyl.
If it connects you to the music then its right regardless of the technology. I think Paul has had his moments on this. I remember his Infinity V set up when his turntable was sat there without a cartridge for what seemed like ages, guess he was concentrating on digital at the time. I just felt at the time he was missing the magic of vinyl through those amazing speakers.
Yes, digital can do that very easy in therms of quality etc. A 100% copy direct from a vinyl to digital storage is not any issue at all sound wise. But you still don't have the the physical nedia on the record player. And that's half the enjoyment for many.
My theory: vinyl is witnessing actual magic your brain and senses can understand. The stylus/ pickup ARE actually picking up and playing the music off the disc and if you lean close with the speakers off, you can actually hear the music in a tiny tinny version! Then the same exact thing gets amplified and gushing out of the speakers in perfect real time unison. No delay - it’s those micro grooves directly moving that air in your ear in a way your primate soul can understand. That’s actual magic and actual connection. And I own zero vinyls and am totally happy with mp3s - in fact most of my cathartic music experiences were 128kbps….
Well I'll be dammed, here comes the ghost of vinyl again. I haven't owned a turntable since the seventy's, but been thinking about what it was that made it so enjoyable. Time for some shopping.
Sounds like there's an opportunity to do an experiment where you record some music in DSD at Octive studio and add typical vinyl noise as you put it and see if it touches the soul..
The only digital source I have heard that gives me the similar sound feeling as vinyl. Is my Micromega stage 3 CD player. Its got the same sort of analogue sound. Probably due to the TDA dac chip. Even sounds more analogue than my denafrips DAC that uses a ladder DAC.
Digital may be 'better. Vinyl is more fun and emotional as you say. One of my most recent CD and vinyl purchases is 'Resonance' by Boris Blank. This is ambient/electronic mostly instrumental music that sounds wonderful on CD but the vinyl is extra special sounding. Thanks, Paul! 🎵
It would seem that many aspects of this mysterious phenomena could be investigated by comparing playback of high quality digital needle-drop recordings directly to the source vinyl. Another would be to experiment with the Groove module in PSpatial Audio’s Stereo Lab software which endeavors to digitally simulate many of the objective deficiencies of vinyl.
Whenever possible I also try to do things in one swell foop. I find that if I use an average foop, it just isn’t the same. It is, however, a totally analog experience!
Digital doesn't have to emotionally connect me to the music in the same manner that vinyl or CD did, it just has to emotionally connect me to the music on it's own merits. After 40 years in high end audio, about three years ago, I switched to an all digital streaming audio system. I took my time, listened, and compared before making the switch. I absolutely loved and was extremely impressed with, not only the convenience, but also the incredible sound quality that I was hearing from the streaming audio systems I auditioned, which prompted me to make the switch. My streaming only audio system amazingly and emotionally connects me to the music, or else I wouldn't hesitate to switch back to CD (not vinyl). Like the sport of golf, high end audio is an individual sport. Individual audiophiles have to find their own way and their own passion in high end audio, whether it be CD, vinyl, reel-to-reel, etc. I've found mine. Happy listening.
I think the large album cover allows us to accept vinyl’s audio flaws. I mean instrumental credit, lyrics and messages are easier to read. Artwork is huge. Having a tangible package with cover and an inner sleeve is like a phone, a tablet or a screen without the inconvenience of turning in an electrical device.
Digital is numbers being decoded and converted into an analog signal, and vinyl is a physical groove that vibrations are transcribed and then reproduced by a stylus. Both have their merits and place in this world, but they will never sound the same.
Just wait till you go down the Reel-to-Reel tape rabbit hole. Better Freq response, Dynamic range and very low noise! But is the most inconvenient and expensive format. I bet hearing an Octave DSD Recording direct to R2R would be AMAZING!!!!!
My cd player though my vintage integrated sound much more “vinyl “ like. I feel that the type, and quality of preamps, poweramps, and dacs have as much impact on the sound , as the actual source media. Sometimes.
Maybe you should make a noise generator for people who enjoy the sound of vinyl and put it in your pre amp with a separate volume control. Make everyone happy 😅
I think it is as simple as the touch of the needle in the groove. It's real, like touching/ playing an instrument. Our brain translates this as more 'real' ?
I can't answer it either in any exact or certain terms. I have a fully analog system with a turntable, a tube phonostage and a tube integrated amplifier and listen pretty much exclusively to vinyl. I typically just chalk down the differences to psychoacoustics and/or some mutation in our brains. I know it is impossible to hear all the voltage and current modulations going on inside rectification circuits, OPAMP's and whatnot since they work in frequency ranges far above human hearing and at decibel levels infinitely lower than our hearing can pick up. But maybe there is something with this digital signal modulation "mimicking" a true analog signal that the ear / brain actually picks up. Some people are vehemently against vinyl and can't stand it and others love it. I doubt we'll ever get a definite answer for this. To me the collector aspect of vinyl plays a big part in why I like the format. Barely anything I own in the digital realm be it movies, games or music has any real tangible value or attachment to me. I suppose the psychology behind that is similar to people being less careful with money they spend on their credit cards compared to if they had the same money in cash. Maybe the same can be said with music for some people. When I pick out a record from my shelf, I typically remember when I bought it, where I bought it and in what state of mind I was. Music has a way of transporting us through time to different places and eras but I think that sense is reinforced when there is a physical aspect to the listening medium.
AAD CDs seem to have a vibe (that is if they were mastered or remastered very well). The vinyl versus digital remains a paradox, but regardless if the recording and sonics are done well either one can do the job. Supposedly, the dynamics of digital surpass that of analog.
My stereo rig includes a McIntosh MC275 MkV (tube) amp, Schiit Audio Freya+ preamp (ran in tube mod 99% of the time), a very good upgradable DAC, a very good transport. Both the MC275 and the Freya+ have upgraded tubes. I’m old enough to know the pros and cons of vinyl. So, when I designed my system, I went for a certain sound, which approximates the sound of vinyl, but with more precise sound. So, while realizing I have to buy new tubes every few years, I don’t have to buy albums, I don’t have to clean records, I don’t have the expense of a very good turntable to deal with. Call me cheap, but being retired on a fixed income, I can afford what I have, don’t think vinyl is worth it to me…
Digital - I just turn on and listen, the level of emotions is very low. Vinyl - the ritual, from cleaning the record and needle before playing, looking at the turntable itself, then when the needle touches the record, album cover and cover art, to have a physical product in hand etc., these are all emotions. The winner: Vinyl
Can't agree more . Vinyl is more relaxing to the ears. But wait ......if he freaks out on vinyl ....then he will go bonkers when he will he listening to a good reel-to-reel ....cause for some strange reason when I copy my vinyl to my ReVox A77 or B77 it sounds better which is something I don't get.
I think the problem with digital is clock jitter. In order to record, let's say a sinus waveform, digitally, the clock has to sample the waveform at precise locations in order to reasonably record it. Otherwise the recording will contain an assymetric sinus, which it always does, to some extent. Similarly, during playback, the playback clock has to present the samples at precise timings in order not to further distort the sound curve, but there will always be some distortion from microscopic jitter. The result after the assymetric sampling and playback reproduction will be a sinus curve that has lost its "heart", ie the harmonics of it has become distorted, and any overtones will have been even further distorted since it is proportional to the frequency. A tape or an analog disc has a momentum which makes the playback "force" very close to constant. The wow and flutter does not affect this very much since it works with slower frequencies, whereas the clock jitter is stable over slow frequencies but aperiodic in high pitches. My two cents.
I’m not sure the surface noise answer holds up. I hear no surface noise from my Pro-ject X1B turntable with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge. I run it balanced and hear zero surface noise seated fairly close to my Magnepan 20.1 speakers. I do love vinyl even though it’s a pain for a few reasons. Digital can come close and it gets better every year but I don’t see vinyl going away anytime soon. Keep working on digital playback Paul. You’re getting close!
If a deeper, more satisfying emotional connection to the music is achieved with playback of a recording on vinyl is achieved, how can a less satisfying experience be *better*?
To my ears (& I have a equalivalently high-end digital source & nalog sources) the music on good LP pressings have a deeper perceived depth of field (this is the biggest difference I typically hear), somewhat greater micro-dynamics/'texture,' & modestly more distinctive timbral qualities most of the time. IMO vinyl has sonic deficiencies relative to digital, but is not sonically deficient, but usually sonically superior overall. Even so, for classical orchestral works I more often prefer the more silent backgrounds of digital media and greater ability to sort fine details.
I liken this matter to sort of what I’ll call, “An Unending Conundrum” that sustains the turning of a perpetual wheel of merchandise acquisition, and sell-off…
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Hi Paul! Francisco del Pozo, one of the most influential Spanish-speaking TH-camrs and a staunch defender of vinyl, claims that a digital audio file created from a properly ripped vinyl retains the properties you mention in this video.
- Assuming Magnus did not have the salesman pull a fast one on him. - Assuming the store had its digital hardware set up right. It is not easy, people get it wrong often, I just recently found I had a DAC set up wrong and when I fixed it, it matched a DAC costing thousands more! - Assuming the streaming service, if that is what he used, was lossless and set up right. - Assuming his digital server set up, if that is what he used, was set up right. This one is even easier to mess up. - Assuming his hearing loss from age was minimal. If you have never had a hearing test, go get one at an ENT or get some Apple Airpod Pros and run the FDA approved test. I can confirm, it is same as audiologist test. Then sure, maybe. But how do you explain CDs? Excluding the noise war re mixes, CDs (on very good players) sound better than streaming or files at high res and better than or identical to records. (Assuming a good mix, all the rest.) Paul is right, it is tightening up as digital gets better and better. Duh! 😊
Hmm. Vinyl has a lot of second order harmonics. Digital has little second order (although many higher end SS pre/amps have better second order in their topology). Tubes have large amounts of second order harmonics that bring a digital signal much closer to the sound of vinyl. DAC's are the source that sound digital the most. DAC's are rather confined to a digital (almost flat and lifeless) snap shot of the music during conversion, unless the DAC has instructions to create a more second order based sound. I know Paul isn't going to like this, but YES you can reach a plateau SO close to a vinyl sound from a digital source, that it becomes indistinguishable from vinyl. The DAC is the key. The most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard is a Lampizator. I have the Atlantic 3 TRP. My guess is that Paul and PS audio are working on a more affordable DAC version than a Lampizator. My Lampi (with all the pre amp stuff and additions of rolled tubes) puts it around $12,000. That's a lot of money for a DAC! But the DAC engine created for this DAC is IMO next to none when it comes to creating an analog sound from a digital source. In a Lampi, the digital source to analog conversion is done with tubes in the circuit, then goes out to a tube preamp, then through a tube amp. All second order based sound. All tubes rolled to taste. A VERY expensive route to achieve a digital based source to analog sound. Microphonic tubes are a bit noisy, but it then comes down to the topology of the tube gear in how much noise you can hear. My system is 100% tube. No noise. I can't hear any tube based noise at all. Again, your spending a lot of money for this. It's too late for me. I am a certified audiophile nut job :) But for the rest of you, I am hoping that Paul and PS Audio can come up with a much cheaper solution to an analog based DAC that doesn't cost you your house!
I'd like to see C-Wave get more comparisons to vinyl, and for c-wave to become available to the mass markets. It seems the closest to vinyl that I've heard (and I'm a big DSD fan).
Sounds like Magnus may need open-heart surgery after all this heart opening. I enjoyed Paul's "swell foop" spin on fell swoop. That's a classic spoonerism.
The Homo Sapien lineage dates back around 700,000 years. Only in the last 30 years or so has our brain-ear interface had to deal with the phenomenon of processing audio that's essentially chopped up and played back in a stream of rapidly switching pulses. Though it's happening in our subconscious, our brains are saying 'WTF', something ain't right here... Versus analog, which is what we've been dealing with for 700,000 years.
Vinyl is a more visceral experience. Remember it's a physical media....the needle makes actual contact with a 3-d surface i.e the groove. That is precisely why the sound made is more 3-dimensional when compared to a bunch of 1's and 0's.
Could it maybe have anything to do with the frequency of which the sound is captured to Vinyl? I know when printing they have to do things slightly specific with the sound in order to get the needle to not skip/leave the track - I wonder if any of this could also contribute to the overall feeling that the listener experiences.
Jeffrey Martin would be able to get to your soul on ANY format.....He truly is amazing!! Unfortunately he has nothing on 8-track.....but if he did....hmmmmmmm
Vinyl ppl makes me want to throw my tt and riaa out the window😂 i play both but so many bad lp around, you need to use big money on vinyl Vs digital to get the same quality.
Hi Paul, maybe you already tried to inject noise to the digital signal. Just because absolut silence is so rare as anechoic chambers. Still gessing, injecting harmonics as tube amplifiers do, could better the experience as listeners. Couldn t be so difficult to simulate them in digital domain. i think that senses are so complex that Gaugin shares the atmosfere of a landscape with brush strokes.
Can digital replicate the experience of vinyl? Yes, but not perfectly. There's an easy experiment anyone can do: digitize a vinyl. When I do that, even if just at 44.1kHz 16bit with a generic sound card, it replicates the sound of vinyl quite well, but something is still missing, even if I do that at 96kHz 24bit. What is missing? Probably just the physical nature of vinyl. The experience of putting the stylus in the groove, and hearing some clicks and pops that was not there a month ago, proceed to wash the record to get rid of it. Or when I buy a badly stored second hand LP that sounds awfully, unbearably distorted, than I spend 15-20 minutes cleaning it with my own method to get rid of the dirt, limescale and mold inside the groove, and get a nearly mint sounding record afterwards. I agree with the comment about the RIAA correction curve, it probably has a lot to do creating that very characteristic vinyl sound, and it might be the reason why tape is also appealing to a lot of people, because tape also uses heavy EQ-ing, preemphasis during recording and deemphasis during playback. Also I think it's the acoustic feedback that might add something. When I used a cheap, plastic Sanyo turntable on a flimsy table close to the speaker, when I cranked it, I could get it to oscillate just as when you get acoustic feedback to a microphone. Proper turntables placed on proper, solid surfaces don't do that, but I think there will be some minor acoustic feedback even with the most expensive turntables if you listen the music very loudly. So I think that's it, apart from the very characteristic sound, it's the physical nature of vinyl, the ritual of handling it that adds some connection to it, that you have to handle it carefully to preserve its quality, and clean it if it develops some clicks and pops. And that part cannot be replicated with digital.
I 💜 vinyl, and have been collecting for 30+ years. There really is something special about vinyl. Thank you, Paul. Excellent description.
For us old folks I think it's what we remember when we were younger the sound of the records the surface noise I don't want to go back to that I had over 3000 album's and I loved them but I'll never go back I'm happier with CDs thank you it's your choice you and only you can decide
I agree with Paul that digital is very close to vinyl nowadays. I recently added a tube-based DAC to my system and it made the music warm and emotional. Although vinyl still has it IMO.
Close?? What rig do you have?
Curious, which tube based DACs are good nowadays/ you got?
Very interesting. I’m a vinyl guy. I only listen to digital when I’m lazy or to listen to a stream to decide if I want to purchase the vinyl album. To me, putting on a vinyl album is satisfying. Vinyl sounds, well, more human. We humans are not perfect, although some will try to put up a argument,😆, and neither is vinyl. That human connection is what tugs at our heart strings ❤️.
Fascinating subject, and the idea that surface noise was a part of it had never occurred to me, a vinyl lover. Thanks Paul.
Listen to what makes you happy.
I grew up with Vinyl and my dad was an audiophile. I had albums and listened to my dads system a lot. As soon as I could afford my own system, I went digital & didn't even think about going back. I'm now wondering about getting back into it, as I get older myself, just for my favourite albums.
The “one swell foop” spoonerism made me smile 😊
As a younger guy who didn't get to design analog and now have to learn to code vst's, this channel gives me big hope that analog is always gonna be around!
Music is art. Paul, bless his heart, is an engineer. Better, for him, is through his lens and is not a fact. Better is always for each of us to decide.
Paul is no engineer; I don't think Paul has a college degree; Paul is a CEO salesman.
Another thing to note is that vinyl’s magic can be experienced with even a modest set-up. Paul alludes to digital having “come close”, but these are generally DACs in the 5 figures - and they still don’t.
You can get a DAC like the SMSL SU-1 which is objectively, measurably fully transparent and only costs 75$
75$ doesn't even buy you a mediocre cartridge, let alone a good vinyl setup
Could it be that the amazement of the high quality of a mechanical device adds to the overall joy?
Why choose. I get great enjoyment from good music, well executed, whether I use my turntable, CD transport, or streamer as a source. I'm cleaning a lot of my vinyl collection of jazz and classical music right now and I'm enjoying rediscovering its magic ( and shortcomings) all over again. Last month I was mostly streaming and enjoying the music a great deal. I'm always pulling out CDs and enjoying more good music from the music I've collected over the years. Why choose when gifted musicians, talented recording and mixing engineers, and good electronics allows us to have it all.
waiting for the record to play the first song after you place the needle on it is the best moment that digital couldn't.
I also like tape for similar reasons
I agree with Paul that digital has improved. I have switched between vinyl and digital over many years and although I still have a turntable, I predominantly listen to digital as I believe the gap has closed, meaning that it’s possible to have the emotional connection associated with vinyl. It’s taken a long time and a significant investment to get to this point so that begs the question, how much more needs to be spent on a digital system than a turntable and associated equipment to achieve that connection.
That was a great answer!
I dont know why, but this conversation reminded me of the early LaserDisc technology which actually encoded video and audio as an analouge signal. Early LaserDiscs featured in 1978 were entirely analog but the format evolved to incorporate digital stereo sound in CD format (sometimes with a TOSlink or coax output to feed an external digital-to-analog converter or DAC), and later multi-channel formats such as Dolby Digital and DTS.
Similar to the CD versus LP sound quality debates common in the audiophile community, some videophiles argue that LaserDisc maintains a "smoother", more "film-like", natural image while DVD still looks slightly more artificial. Early DVD demo discs often had compression or encoding problems, lending additional support to such claims at the time. The video signal-to-noise ratio and bandwidth of LaserDisc are substantially less than those of DVDs, making DVDs appear sharper and clearer to most viewers.
I just wanted to add this into the conversation. The physicality of comminicating information on the medium seems to add a "lived experience" when delivered from the medium, as if to say "This is a story from my lived memory" .. Thanks Paul and everyone in the Audio scene.
Vinyl absolutely touches my heart. All the noise, clicks and pops make my blood boil!😁
I'm immensely proud of my dad, who got the patent for RCA's CED videodisk system back in 1960. But, the product that hit the market 20 years later was a kludgy glitchy mess. Like vinyl, CED got the job done with the technology available at the time, but they're crude and unrefined compared to modern technologies.
Vinyl carefully handled, cleaned and played at a low tracking weight generally has very little extraneous noise.
I very rarely hear a click or a pop.
Shitty systems do that yes.
@@mikeeaglesham
Having grown up on vinyl I find your experience extremely rare.
Oh yes, vinyl indeed does (when your setup suddenly, for whatever reason you have done right, kicks in). The Stellar Power Plant P3 helped me a lot by giving me constant results, I could build upon.
Agree with you, vinyl has a "fourth dimension" connecting the listener that digital still (although close) does not have.
I've wondered if it is the RIAA curve itself which is appealing to humans. It's zero point (where there is no compression) is at 1000Hz, which is in the middle of the human voice range and what audiophiles think of as the "midrange" of their system. By reducing fidelity at the extremes and preserving fidelity around the human voice, the RIAA curve is perhaps playing into our brain's need to connect to human sounds. Digital, with its excellent LF reproduction, and with contemporary systems very good HF, is forcing us to hear things we have not evolved to care much about.
This sounds the most logical explanation I have heard to date.
Fascinating hypothesis. Perhaps there is a separate force at play that makes digital repulsive. I think there can be a digital edge that the brain finds irritating. We saw that in early CD players. The best DACs today sound very analogue and approach vinyl in satisfaction. Perhaps these two forces combine to drive people to vinyl as their passion system. I personally have never been attracted to vinyl and am happy in my ignorance.
Yes but also what Darko talks about in one of his videos from a year ago: “When high res can’t compete with vinyl…”
This sounds like a brilliant theory.
RIAA has nothing to do with compression. It has to do with relative values based on frequency to take advantage of the non-linear response of a magnetic coil based transducer, the magnetic cartridge. As with all inductors/ coils, the output goes up as the rate of change increases, IOW for the same stylus travel distance, the higher the frequency, the faster the the stylus moves, the higher the output. Higher frequencies require less groove modulation than lows for the same output level. So RIAA spec'd filters reduce the relative sensitivity of the phono stage at the hinge point and above. Not compression.
The actual reduction in fidelity comes, is required for digital conversion. Low pass often brick wall filters for limiting high frequencies.
What a brilliant topic! And I have to agree... just something about the sound from vinyl that digital and even magentic tape can never do. I would prefer vinyl any day. CD quality is not an absolute requirement to truly enjoy music the way its best enjoyed.
I dunno, a Master tape at 30ips takes some beating. After all many analogue vinyl discs come from an analogue master tape.
@@mikeeaglesham Yes discs come from an analog SUB master of the 2 track master. They would not use the 2 track master to protect it. Just as they would then take that 2 channel master and make a sub master in order to make 3rd gen sub masters as sources for the 4th gen sub, sub, sub tapes that you would buy. Possibly even another generation before the open real tape that is sold. Discs are sourced from 2 - 3 generations earlier subs than retail open real.
@glenncurry3041 A master tape does not just mean one tape, there can be multiple tapes, one or more for storage, others for use. Some Premium but expensive analogue vinyl companies press from master tapes.
Best of course is no tape, direct to disk like Sheffield Labs and others, but that comes with one take problems. Accentus Music was my latest acquisition DTD all analogue New World Symphony.
@mikeeaglesham yet there is just something special about vinyl! From removing that LP from its folder, making sure its dust free, placing it onto that platter, lowering the stylus and just listening to rhat special quality in the sound! Never gets old or easily replaced.
@@mikeeaglesham "Master", There is a reason it is given that name. "SUB-master" also very specifically named this for a reason. NO there is only ONE Master! Any COPIES for "storage, others to use" are not Masters, they are copies, at best sub masters.
Yes D to D is best. I repped many labels when they first came out in the '70's.
I am a sacd and cd listener. Vinyl has a nostalgia that brings up old emotions from our past. Maybe like perfume or other smells activates some part of our brain with comfort circuitry.
Ears are analog. Our brain is complex, but it is also analog. That doesn't explain why vinyl had the effect it did on the letter writer, but may be a start.
I built my first system based on advice from an audio engineer friend of mine who was adamant that accuracy and transparency was the most important factor so set up a streaming system with a digital amp around 600w with room correction. It was certainly accurate and resolving but exactly as Magnus said, just didn't grab me. I then swapped out the amp for a tube amp and moved to a turntable, and have never looked back. Vinyl is compromised, it's unperfect in every factor, it's work to flip sides, it's work to clean, it's work to preserve the covers, and maintain the needle, yet despite all of that, it rocks my boat in a way that digital never ever achieved. I would never go back to digital in any form.
I've never heard digital room correction that worked properly. I agree about vinyl, I don't believe digital will ever get there, too much processing. Analogue throughout is much simplier and generally straightforward.
Great thoughts Paul.
I recently reconnected the family vinyl record player and played the records I'd got to know as a kid and teenager.
I immediately recognised the signature of pops and scratches and it was very nostalgic listening to, let's have a look... Pet Sounds because the precice irregularities of each vinyl revord have become buried deeply imto my memory.
So each record is unique...
it almost makes me wonder whether to give them a deep clean or leave them as is if it scrubs away that signature.
A huge thank you to ‘Magnus in Sweden……’. I had never heard of Jeffrey Martin & I just searched Tidal & if there is one thing I am doing tomorrow it’s finding the Digs In The Daylight LP.
Wow, I am lucky enough to have put together a system that by pure chance was absolutely craving the Vinyl sound, a mix of Accuphase, PrimaLuna Mono’s & Bowers & Wilkins so zi decided to ‘Scratch the Vinyl Itch’ & this artist is going to blow me away when I hear him on my system. So much so that I am going to avoid putting it through my Auralic Transport Streamer because this needs to be heard on vinyl.
Thanks Paul & thanks Magnus! I simply can’t wait to wake up!
I guess ‘that’s’ what vinyl does, I love streaming because it’s precision perfection on the right system but there are harmonics, tones & guitar tones that linger in a room with vinyl. My streaming system is ‘close’ but Vinyl is starting to show me there’s more.
I’m loving this addition, on a basic Rega Planar 3 Nd5 cart, with a Rega NEO Psu & simple Rega Fono Mk5……….
Magic, I won’t be discarding my Chord DAC anytime soon but I’m discovering vinyl & loving it….. the search for the brilliantly mastered tracks & superbly manufactured vinyl is part of the buzz.
But it’s a pain in the butt 😂…… like having a Cat, you become a slave to it, can’t just chuck money at it, you have to learn the ‘Why’ ‘how’ & ‘what’ & you have to do it all yourself to understand lol.
I regret that I have but one thumbs up for this video!
Great video, Paul (as always). I often compare the sound of vinyl to "umami". It's an almost indescribable savoriness (to steal a descriptor from another sense).
I believe it has something to do with the creation of the electronic signal. A D/A chip vs. coils & magnets. The signal on a turntable is created the same way a microphone creates a signal, coils and magnets.
Vinyl. Emotional. Yeah. This just proves what I've observed for years and years. Guys like distortion. They love it. And - as you point out - noise. Blasting distortion and noise. It's why all of these honchos go ape wild over horns. And, crap vinyl. Rock on.
a digital noice on/off switch is the future Paul , vinyl is in the air
I do like running my dac into a tube preamp vs directly into tube power amp. It does sound better to me. I have a switch to go back and forth, so its instant. Not saying its more accurate than direct but it sounds better to me and most who ive checked it with.
I think that's also a reason some people like vintage gear. also there is a warmth in the mid-range that needs to be added to digital, at least for me which i do.
My favorite record is my JVC Supervinyl half speed master of Neil Diamonds Johnathon Livingston Seagull. Wish I had those for my Moody Blues Days of Futire Past, all my Alan Parsons Project and everything done by Enya. I would be in heaven.
I love vinyl, and up to a few years ago I never played anything else. However, with the ever-increasing price of vinyl recently, I stopped buying it and started buying CDs instead. I decided if I wanted to go over to listening to more CDs, then I needed to improve my CD setup. I decided to go for Cyrus Signature CD XT Transport, Cyrus Signature Pre-amp / Dual mono DAC, with the power supply, and Cyrus Stereo 200 Power Amp. All I can say is, I enjoy it every bit as much as my £6K vinyl setup.
In my system what made digital sound close to vinyl was an r2r DAC.
….the speaker arrangement was, I thought, interesting also. Those Signature 3a’s were diagonally placed at opposite coners, with the Ohm 3000 towers very nearly centered in the room… a special moment I’ll never forget!
If your vinyl has surface noise, then either:
-- Your records are not clean.
-- Your cartridge / tone-arm is not professionally aligned (few people have them aligned, including dedicated vinyl lovers and channels devoted to audio bliss).
It takes the right tools, special skills (which comes with experience), knowing all of the vectors that must be set (few people know them all), the patients to sit there for, perhaps, a couple of hours to get it right, and a good ear.
In fact, just to dial in the stylus's azimuth, you need a special vinyl pressing that is designed for that singular purpose. How many people own that pressing? How many people even know that they need that pressing and an oscilloscope to get the azimuth dialed in with precision?
If any of numerous vectors are out of alignment, no matter how slightly, then your stylus will rub where it should not be rubbing, and you will hear that rubbing as surface noise.
However, if you play clean records, on a professionally dialed in turntable, you will virtually eliminate surface noise.
And then there is feedback (vibrations from the speakers that reach your stylus), that most folks have and are not aware that they have. When there is only slight feedback, most people will not notice it -- unless they were to hear an A / B comparison. I learned this the hard way.
I have an HRS equipment rack. I was able to play my vinyl loud, and I never heard feedback (or so I thought). Then I added an additional layer of vibration control, under my turntable. Everything got better. Everything was noticeably more focused.
It is hard to get vinyl to sound really good. So I do not blame anyone that thinks that digital is better -- because, for all practical matters, digital does sound better.
-----
Digital, by and large, is not better than vinyl -- although it has the potential to be better than vinyl.
Most digital is plagued with jitter. If you did not purchase a dedicated, quality, stand-alone transport, then you have jitter. As good as your digital sounds, it would sound noticeably better without the jitter that you do not realize that you have.
Also, studios do a mostly sub-par job in creating digital files. So no matter how state-of-the-art your digital front-end might be, you are at the mercy of the clods in the studios (many of whom believe that lossy mp3 files are just fine).
At their best, both digital and vinyl go toe-to-toe in the sound quality arena. But digital is far simpler to achieve very good sound quality, and also costs far less to achieve very good sound quality. Hence, so many people believe that digital sounds better. Then add in convenience, and no wonder most people prefer digital over vinyl.
Over the years, I've gone from wanting ever more resolution ( which usually meant I wanted a starker sound ) to wanting grace, fluidity and human warmth in the notes. To that end, while sticking with digital, I did the following;
1. Brought an Ayon DAC player which uses a tube output. Every review I read stated it doesn't sound digital. It doesn't.
2. Brought dedicated CD and streaming transports to maximize isolation of digital circuitry from noise.
3. Brought a tube pre and changed the tubes to Mullards
4. Got the best mains-cleaning gear I could afford.
5. Switched entirely to copper cables.
6. Instead of buying expensive cables, I brought a half dozen Chinese power leads, a half dozen speaker cable and a dozen interconnects, kept the ones which randomly sounded warmest and richest to me then sold off the others. I lost a little money but now had a cable loom which suits me down to the ground.
7. Got rid of all metal from my rack set up by buying a wooden TV stand and used bamboo chopping boards, sitting on top of marble chopping boards ( with the polished side downwards ) which meet the top of ceramic ball bearings, which sit in the concavities of glass golf ball holders. Now, I have a handful of complaint shelves which have minimal contact points to transmit vibration through from the TV stand. In between the marble and bamboo chopping boards are laid a metal mesh ( designed to keep out rats ) which absorbs RF radiation from the equipment's transformers. ( similar to the Athena shelves by Entreq ) The mesh is connected by alligator clips to earth drains.
8. I extensively grounded the gear through Entreq Macro kits and put Entreq Magma footers between components and the shelves.
Each one of these undertakings serves to reduce 'digititus' in my system, adding naturalness and tonal grace. In the afternoons, when the mains quality is poor, my system is merely 'excellent,' with a high degree of tonal and micro-dynamic shading, warmth and a rich resonance to notes, although that last, nth degree of tonal grace is still lacking. In the late evenings, when the mains is far better here in London, the system becomes glorious and I am finally beyond any real critical listening since I am captivated by the music. My only ( unfair ) criticism left is that my system can never match the dynamics and scale of a real world event.
I've heard high-end vinyl in friends' systems and mine gets very close in naturalness, richness and warmth but also delivers deeper bass and a black background. Plus I can switch albums with my cell phone! I don't know if all my innovations are adding colouration or noise. It certainly sounds natural and real. Either way, I no longer care. I'm happy, after thirty years of doing it all wrong.
Anyway, a few pointers as to how a human and musical sound can be derived via digital, if you are willing to give up the hunt for nth-degree resolution and ultra-low SINAD figures which is what most modern, chip-based digital seems to be about . HTH.
New turntables and components today are all designed to sound like what digital doing best - neutrality and data retrieval. I was like lot of comments here ‘oh digital comes very close to vinyl these days’. Not until I went back to OG spec of TT/amplifiers/speakers from 70s 80s and found the real charm of vinyl.
You know what, the newer generations (included myself) were born in a period that CDs/MP3s were the mainstream format, that we got used to thin, cold and fatiguing sound that pretended to be ‘high-res’. (Tho digital done right could be very enjoyable like vinyl - but it is rare)
To sell new equipments and get on to wave of vinyl revival hifi producers got to follow this habit. And define the old equipments as inferior. But the enjoyment of vinyl from good old days is otherworldly. As Paul said not as revealing but much more enjoyments.
Paul hints at something here that I have been pondering the implications of: vinyl playback surface noise constitutes an explicitly “live” component that is mixed with the recorded material during playback, a “real” component psychoacoustically processed by the mind along with the recorded music. In my own digital listening experience, I find recordings containing other “real” flaws (mic feedback, amp hum, tape recorder noise) to heighten the live emotion.
Can‘t agree more. I do love my digital system with your Direct Stream DAC MKII but my Thorens TD 550 is so different. I love both, but if I had to choose I‘d go for my vinyl system
Its probably true, its effectively the distortion that is enjoyable to so many. I get that. So that also means, you could convert a vinyl record in to an uncompressed digital wav/flac file and it should have the same emotion as the original. I've done this and I believe it does too, IMO Digital records simply what is there.
I have a theory about why analog sound, whether through vinyl, slightly noisy tape, or FM radio, feels so magical, even when the original recording was digital. This effect is especially noticeable with multitrack recordings.
Multitrack recording is, after all, inherently unnatural, involving separate takes with acoustically distinct, unrelated tracks.
Analog formats like vinyl add a layer of noise and a unique sound signature, which seem to blend these disparate tracks into a cohesive whole. This effect, I believe, is a kind of psychoacoustic process.
I remember, back when CDs were new, recording a copy of Heart’s Horizon by Al Jarreau onto my tape deck-a simple Akai with quite a bit of noise. To my surprise, the tape version sounded “better”-more analog, warmer, and even more emotional than the original CD.
So maybe it’s that subtle mix of imperfections, like noise and texture, even pleasant distortion (!), that makes analog sound come alive, turning even digital recordings into something that feels more real and unified.
Off topic! Just watched the ARTE documentary of the Festival in 1972 and said to me "Hey you know this guy!" Was great to listen to your stories eg when the Pink floyd guy pulled the plug😊 to stop your record. Greetings from nearby, I live 15 miles away from Insel Gruen!
When I switched to digital years ago I could immediately tell how that RIAA playback curve colored the music. It unaturally blunts the "edge" of the sound and muddles the middle. I guess this could charitably be looked at as "warmer" I found out the only way to get rid of what compression does is to not apply it in the first place.
Vinyl is like an oil painting, one can relate to every brush stroke. Digital is a Webcam photo.
Using your photography metaphor, I would say an iphone camera is digital, a film camera is akin to vinyl and Fuji digital cameras, both the experience of using them - as well as their jpeg/film'ish simulations of actual Fujifilm look - is akin to that middle ground.
@@jasonkilo8167
Do oil paintings work best with class A, AB, or D amplifiers? 🤔
@unclewilbur8976 lol, crusty tubes, or an old AB. Works for me.
@jasonkilo8167 Thanks!
I have a small oil painting ~ 14 x 19. How many watts do I need?
And how do I know about the ohms!!?? 😵💫🥴🤔
@bassandtrebleclef my thinking is painting is physical motion, digital is just information.
….my own theory in resolving the conundrum involves the engineering ideas of Richard Vandersteen’s “Dimensionl Purity” and the continuing work of John Strohbeen of Ohm Acoustics. The late, reveered Lincoln Walshs’ omnidirectional propagation, and the performance of Vandersteen’s Signature 3a speakers in a system I encountered many years ago, that left my eyes welling with astonished joy. Just how one Luxman A-3300 preamp, and two Hafler TransNova-9505s held me levitated in sheer nirvana was an experience I haven’t encountered since. And they were only tracks by ELO, on some compilation disc, played albeit, on a Philips LHH 1000!
(Whatever formulas Philips used in their conversion, it was amazingly smooth, and analog sounding ESPECIALLY through that amplification chain.🌹✨☀️
Since the birth of digital, we have been trying to answer this question. The answer is different for each person. I recently visited my local stereo store and was listening to some very fine Totem Winds speakers on a upper middle level digital system. It was sounding good to my ears, all the notes were there and were clearly easy to hear. Sitting on the shelf was a 40 year old Linn Sondek with a few mods but not state of the art by any means. I asked the rep to try that. Wham, music happened. PRAT as the Brits would say, color, tone, but it was swingin. I think digital appeals to the logical side you your brain and analog to the emotional.
I do remember reading an article from a sound laboratory in Canada some 15 + years ago regarding this. If I remember correctly, it was discovered that tape and vinyl along with other componentry tested, was producing upper harmonics that were pleasing to the brain. I cant remember if it was odd or even order harmonics. Likewise the digital equipment at the time of research was doing the opposite and producing frequencies that were irritating to the brain and also the nervous system. Maybe someone has that article floating around somewhere...?
I think some of that comes down to the power supply. Most digital equipment uses SMPS's, which have their own sound. I have found that pieces of wood on or against all the capacitors in P.S.'s help to reduce tiny vibrations in them, and that produces a more 'non digital' sound IMHO. Just keep wood away from metal, that takes away from the sound quality, also IMHO.
I have done that with my 2 P3 Regens (now are out of warranty, of course), and it transformed my sounds!
Movies on VHS cassettes also have a different effect on the viewer than movies on DVDs
It's always a contentious question and people feel passionate on both sides. I think Paul has something when he says that digital can seem too clean and devoid of all background noise to some people making it almost sterile. Paul would never recommend it as it goes against everything an audiophile stands for but some folk have found that fitting a 'tube buffer' between their DAC and amplifier introduces just enough 'warmth' - basically slightly non linearity and noise , to recreate that sweet sound. These can be bought online from eBay and Amazon for very low cost. I've not used one myself but may have said it's done just the job. I personally prefer digital sound overall but certainly get plenty of enjoyment from vinyl.
People are suppressing Emotions. That’s the core answer. Nothing will survive without unique humans emotions. Love! Not the same as ❤
If it connects you to the music then its right regardless of the technology.
I think Paul has had his moments on this. I remember his Infinity V set up when his turntable was sat there without a cartridge for what seemed like ages, guess he was concentrating on digital at the time. I just felt at the time he was missing the magic of vinyl through those amazing speakers.
Yes, digital can do that very easy in therms of quality etc. A 100% copy direct from a vinyl to digital storage is not any issue at all sound wise. But you still don't have the the physical nedia on the record player. And that's half the enjoyment for many.
My theory: vinyl is witnessing actual magic your brain and senses can understand. The stylus/ pickup ARE actually picking up and playing the music off the disc and if you lean close with the speakers off, you can actually hear the music in a tiny tinny version! Then the same exact thing gets amplified and gushing out of the speakers in perfect real time unison. No delay - it’s those micro grooves directly moving that air in your ear in a way your primate soul can understand. That’s actual magic and actual connection. And I own zero vinyls and am totally happy with mp3s - in fact most of my cathartic music experiences were 128kbps….
Yep, you nailed it!
Well I'll be dammed, here comes the ghost of vinyl again. I haven't owned a turntable since the seventy's, but been thinking about what it was that made it so enjoyable. Time for some shopping.
Sounds like there's an opportunity to do an experiment where you record some music in DSD at Octive studio and add typical vinyl noise as you put it and see if it touches the soul..
The only digital source I have heard that gives me the similar sound feeling as vinyl. Is my Micromega stage 3 CD player. Its got the same sort of analogue sound. Probably due to the TDA dac chip. Even sounds more analogue than my denafrips DAC that uses a ladder DAC.
Digital may be 'better. Vinyl is more fun and emotional as you say. One of my most recent CD and vinyl purchases is 'Resonance' by Boris Blank. This is ambient/electronic mostly instrumental music that sounds wonderful on CD but the vinyl is extra special sounding. Thanks, Paul! 🎵
It would seem that many aspects of this mysterious phenomena could be investigated by comparing playback of high quality digital needle-drop recordings directly to the source vinyl. Another would be to experiment with the Groove module in PSpatial Audio’s Stereo Lab software which endeavors to digitally simulate many of the objective deficiencies of vinyl.
Whenever possible I also try to do things in one swell foop. I find that if I use an average foop, it just isn’t the same. It is, however, a totally analog experience!
Digital doesn't have to emotionally connect me to the music in the same manner that vinyl or CD did, it just has to emotionally connect me to the music on it's own merits. After 40 years in high end audio, about three years ago, I switched to an all digital streaming audio system. I took my time, listened, and compared before making the switch. I absolutely loved and was extremely impressed with, not only the convenience, but also the incredible sound quality that I was hearing from the streaming audio systems I auditioned, which prompted me to make the switch. My streaming only audio system amazingly and emotionally connects me to the music, or else I wouldn't hesitate to switch back to CD (not vinyl). Like the sport of golf, high end audio is an individual sport. Individual audiophiles have to find their own way and their own passion in high end audio, whether it be CD, vinyl, reel-to-reel, etc. I've found mine. Happy listening.
I think the large album cover allows us to accept vinyl’s audio flaws. I mean instrumental credit, lyrics and messages are easier to read. Artwork is huge.
Having a tangible package with cover and an inner sleeve is like a phone, a tablet or a screen without the inconvenience of turning in an electrical device.
Digital is numbers being decoded and converted into an analog signal, and vinyl is a physical groove that vibrations are transcribed and then reproduced by a stylus. Both have their merits and place in this world, but they will never sound the same.
Just wait till you go down the Reel-to-Reel tape rabbit hole. Better Freq response, Dynamic range and very low noise! But is the most inconvenient and expensive format. I bet hearing an Octave DSD Recording direct to R2R would be AMAZING!!!!!
My cd player though my vintage integrated sound much more “vinyl “ like. I feel that the type, and quality of preamps, poweramps, and dacs have as much impact on the sound , as the actual source media. Sometimes.
Maybe you should make a noise generator for people who enjoy the sound of vinyl and put it in your pre amp with a separate volume control. Make everyone happy 😅
If a vinyl record is ripped into a wav file from the RIAA preamp, then that should keep the vinyl sound if wanted.
WRONG! Once it has been ripped into bits it will never be the same.
@@glenncurry3041 What if the vinyl is made from a digital master?
@@georgebliss964 Generational and transcoding losses and errors.
CORRECT! Vinyl just adds distortion that some people find pleasing.
@@Enigma758 Correct. Where digital adds distortions that are unpleasant to people.
I think it is as simple as the touch of the needle in the groove. It's real, like touching/ playing an instrument. Our brain translates this as more 'real' ?
lol. "one swell foop." 3:05
I can't answer it either in any exact or certain terms. I have a fully analog system with a turntable, a tube phonostage and a tube integrated amplifier and listen pretty much exclusively to vinyl. I typically just chalk down the differences to psychoacoustics and/or some mutation in our brains.
I know it is impossible to hear all the voltage and current modulations going on inside rectification circuits, OPAMP's and whatnot since they work in frequency ranges far above human hearing and at decibel levels infinitely lower than our hearing can pick up. But maybe there is something with this digital signal modulation "mimicking" a true analog signal that the ear / brain actually picks up. Some people are vehemently against vinyl and can't stand it and others love it. I doubt we'll ever get a definite answer for this.
To me the collector aspect of vinyl plays a big part in why I like the format. Barely anything I own in the digital realm be it movies, games or music has any real tangible value or attachment to me. I suppose the psychology behind that is similar to people being less careful with money they spend on their credit cards compared to if they had the same money in cash. Maybe the same can be said with music for some people. When I pick out a record from my shelf, I typically remember when I bought it, where I bought it and in what state of mind I was. Music has a way of transporting us through time to different places and eras but I think that sense is reinforced when there is a physical aspect to the listening medium.
AAD CDs seem to have a vibe (that is if they were mastered or remastered very well). The vinyl versus digital remains a paradox, but regardless if the recording and sonics are done well either one can do the job. Supposedly, the dynamics of digital surpass that of analog.
My stereo rig includes a McIntosh MC275 MkV (tube) amp, Schiit Audio Freya+ preamp (ran in tube mod 99% of the time), a very good upgradable DAC, a very good transport. Both the MC275 and the Freya+ have upgraded tubes.
I’m old enough to know the pros and cons of vinyl. So, when I designed my system, I went for a certain sound, which approximates the sound of vinyl, but with more precise sound.
So, while realizing I have to buy new tubes every few years, I don’t have to buy albums, I don’t have to clean records, I don’t have the expense of a very good turntable to deal with.
Call me cheap, but being retired on a fixed income, I can afford what I have, don’t think vinyl is worth it to me…
Surface noise is emotional dithering
Digital - I just turn on and listen, the level of emotions is very low. Vinyl - the ritual, from cleaning the record and needle before playing, looking at the turntable itself, then when the needle touches the record, album cover and cover art, to have a physical product in hand etc., these are all emotions. The winner: Vinyl
Can't agree more . Vinyl is more relaxing to the ears.
But wait ......if he freaks out on vinyl ....then he will go bonkers when he will he listening to a good reel-to-reel ....cause for some strange reason when I copy my vinyl to my ReVox A77 or B77 it sounds better which is something I don't get.
I think the problem with digital is clock jitter. In order to record, let's say a sinus waveform, digitally, the clock has to sample the waveform at precise locations in order to reasonably record it. Otherwise the recording will contain an assymetric sinus, which it always does, to some extent. Similarly, during playback, the playback clock has to present the samples at precise timings in order not to further distort the sound curve, but there will always be some distortion from microscopic jitter.
The result after the assymetric sampling and playback reproduction will be a sinus curve that has lost its "heart", ie the harmonics of it has become distorted, and any overtones will have been even further distorted since it is proportional to the frequency. A tape or an analog disc has a momentum which makes the playback "force" very close to constant. The wow and flutter does not affect this very much since it works with slower frequencies, whereas the clock jitter is stable over slow frequencies but aperiodic in high pitches.
My two cents.
I’m not sure the surface noise answer holds up. I hear no surface noise from my Pro-ject X1B turntable with a Ortofon Cadenza Bronze cartridge. I run it balanced and hear zero surface noise seated fairly close to my Magnepan 20.1 speakers. I do love vinyl even though it’s a pain for a few reasons. Digital can come close and it gets better every year but I don’t see vinyl going away anytime soon. Keep working on digital playback Paul. You’re getting close!
If a deeper, more satisfying emotional connection to the music is achieved with playback of a recording on vinyl is achieved, how can a less satisfying experience be *better*?
To my ears (& I have a equalivalently high-end digital source & nalog sources) the music on good LP pressings have a deeper perceived depth of field (this is the biggest difference I typically hear), somewhat greater micro-dynamics/'texture,' & modestly more distinctive timbral qualities most of the time. IMO vinyl has sonic deficiencies relative to digital, but is not sonically deficient, but usually sonically superior overall. Even so, for classical orchestral works I more often prefer the more silent backgrounds of digital media and greater ability to sort fine details.
I liken this matter to sort of what I’ll call, “An Unending Conundrum” that sustains the turning of a perpetual wheel of merchandise acquisition, and sell-off…
Hi Paul!
Francisco del Pozo, one of the most influential Spanish-speaking TH-camrs and a staunch defender of vinyl, claims that a digital audio file created from a properly ripped vinyl retains the properties you mention in this video.
Depende del ADC, pero yo sí que me lo creo perfectamente
Some music may actually sounds “better” with more dynamic compression. May be less accurate, but if you prefer the sound then go for it.
- Assuming Magnus did not have the salesman pull a fast one on him.
- Assuming the store had its digital hardware set up right. It is not easy, people get it wrong often, I just recently found I had a DAC set up wrong and when I fixed it, it matched a DAC costing thousands more!
- Assuming the streaming service, if that is what he used, was lossless and set up right.
- Assuming his digital server set up, if that is what he used, was set up right. This one is even easier to mess up.
- Assuming his hearing loss from age was minimal. If you have never had a hearing test, go get one at an ENT or get some Apple Airpod Pros and run the FDA approved test. I can confirm, it is same as audiologist test.
Then sure, maybe.
But how do you explain CDs? Excluding the noise war re mixes, CDs (on very good players) sound better than streaming or files at high res and better than or identical to records. (Assuming a good mix, all the rest.)
Paul is right, it is tightening up as digital gets better and better. Duh! 😊
Hmm. Vinyl has a lot of second order harmonics. Digital has little second order (although many higher end SS pre/amps have better second order in their topology). Tubes have large amounts of second order harmonics that bring a digital signal much closer to the sound of vinyl. DAC's are the source that sound digital the most. DAC's are rather confined to a digital (almost flat and lifeless) snap shot of the music during conversion, unless the DAC has instructions to create a more second order based sound. I know Paul isn't going to like this, but YES you can reach a plateau SO close to a vinyl sound from a digital source, that it becomes indistinguishable from vinyl. The DAC is the key. The most analog sounding DAC I have ever heard is a Lampizator. I have the Atlantic 3 TRP. My guess is that Paul and PS audio are working on a more affordable DAC version than a Lampizator. My Lampi (with all the pre amp stuff and additions of rolled tubes) puts it around $12,000. That's a lot of money for a DAC! But the DAC engine created for this DAC is IMO next to none when it comes to creating an analog sound from a digital source. In a Lampi, the digital source to analog conversion is done with tubes in the circuit, then goes out to a tube preamp, then through a tube amp. All second order based sound. All tubes rolled to taste. A VERY expensive route to achieve a digital based source to analog sound.
Microphonic tubes are a bit noisy, but it then comes down to the topology of the tube gear in how much noise you can hear. My system is 100% tube. No noise. I can't hear any tube based noise at all. Again, your spending a lot of money for this. It's too late for me. I am a certified audiophile nut job :) But for the rest of you, I am hoping that Paul and PS Audio can come up with a much cheaper solution to an analog based DAC that doesn't cost you your house!
I'd like to see C-Wave get more comparisons to vinyl, and for c-wave to become available to the mass markets. It seems the closest to vinyl that I've heard (and I'm a big DSD fan).
Sounds like Magnus may need open-heart surgery after all this heart opening.
I enjoyed Paul's "swell foop" spin on fell swoop. That's a classic spoonerism.
The Homo Sapien lineage dates back around 700,000 years. Only in the last 30 years or so has our brain-ear interface had to deal with the phenomenon of processing audio that's essentially chopped up and played back in a stream of rapidly switching pulses. Though it's happening in our subconscious, our brains are saying 'WTF', something ain't right here... Versus analog, which is what we've been dealing with for 700,000 years.
There's nothing "chopped up" about digital after it's been reconstructed by the DAC
Vinyl is a more visceral experience. Remember it's a physical media....the needle makes actual contact with a 3-d surface i.e the groove. That is precisely why the sound made is more 3-dimensional when compared to a bunch of 1's and 0's.
Could it maybe have anything to do with the frequency of which the sound is captured to Vinyl? I know when printing they have to do things slightly specific with the sound in order to get the needle to not skip/leave the track - I wonder if any of this could also contribute to the overall feeling that the listener experiences.
Jeffrey Martin would be able to get to your soul on ANY format.....He truly is amazing!! Unfortunately he has nothing on 8-track.....but if he did....hmmmmmmm
Vinyl ppl makes me want to throw my tt and riaa out the window😂 i play both but so many bad lp around, you need to use big money on vinyl Vs digital to get the same quality.
Exactly
Hi Paul, maybe you already tried to inject noise to the digital signal. Just because absolut silence is so rare as anechoic chambers. Still gessing, injecting harmonics as tube amplifiers do, could better the experience as listeners. Couldn t be so difficult to simulate them in digital domain.
i think that senses are so complex that Gaugin shares the atmosfere of a landscape with brush strokes.
Can digital replicate the experience of vinyl? Yes, but not perfectly. There's an easy experiment anyone can do: digitize a vinyl. When I do that, even if just at 44.1kHz 16bit with a generic sound card, it replicates the sound of vinyl quite well, but something is still missing, even if I do that at 96kHz 24bit. What is missing? Probably just the physical nature of vinyl. The experience of putting the stylus in the groove, and hearing some clicks and pops that was not there a month ago, proceed to wash the record to get rid of it.
Or when I buy a badly stored second hand LP that sounds awfully, unbearably distorted, than I spend 15-20 minutes cleaning it with my own method to get rid of the dirt, limescale and mold inside the groove, and get a nearly mint sounding record afterwards.
I agree with the comment about the RIAA correction curve, it probably has a lot to do creating that very characteristic vinyl sound, and it might be the reason why tape is also appealing to a lot of people, because tape also uses heavy EQ-ing, preemphasis during recording and deemphasis during playback.
Also I think it's the acoustic feedback that might add something. When I used a cheap, plastic Sanyo turntable on a flimsy table close to the speaker, when I cranked it, I could get it to oscillate just as when you get acoustic feedback to a microphone. Proper turntables placed on proper, solid surfaces don't do that, but I think there will be some minor acoustic feedback even with the most expensive turntables if you listen the music very loudly.
So I think that's it, apart from the very characteristic sound, it's the physical nature of vinyl, the ritual of handling it that adds some connection to it, that you have to handle it carefully to preserve its quality, and clean it if it develops some clicks and pops. And that part cannot be replicated with digital.
I used to think it was the air around the instruments was different