I’m a regular on the PSAudio forum, Elk is superb, never heavy handed, and you all allow us to discuss competitor products which is so rare on a company forum. Really value everything I’ve learnt on there. My phono preamp I spent about the same as my record deck, to me it’s an often overlooked component and it really is the primary conduit of what sound the rest of your system is capable of.
You can look at two other hobbies that a lot of men get involved with cameras and of course, performance cars similar to audio, hi-fi high-end cars, high and stereo high-end cameras and accessories in all three industries I have a truck I am spending $20,000 extra on the truck, I have a camera. I’ve spent several thousand dollars on lenses for the camera and hi-fi. I’ve done the same thing, we can afford and why not that’s what we work for and we’re only here so long on this earth enjoy the best you can afford. I respect you a lot and a lot of people do respect you and a lot of people differ with your opinions and that’s OK too keep up the good work, Paul
I've done some phono preamp designs myself (amateur) and I could say that the hardest part is to make it quiet. That 40db or 60db of gain takes every little noise and makes it huge. Getting the grounding and the power supply right is very important.
Added the ps audio phono preamp to my system.....couldn't be happier with the sound ... not worried about criticism....it works for my ears and that's all that matters ❤😊
Paul is so spot on here! I’ve gone though handfuls of phono pre amps this year alone. My reference and a stunning example of a well done phono pre is my PS Audio GCPH… Still running strong 💪 and just a superb example of analog done right. 🎉🎉
A phono preamp is the most extreme case of EQ (+/- 20dB RIAA filter) and amplification (very high gain). Compared to other parts of an analog audio signal path, this is where passionate excellent engineering often makes the biggest difference. But I find it a bit ironic that those people deep into vinyl are often most anti EQ and anti loudness compensation not realizing they use the most extreme EQ I their own system. I wish PS Audio some day would realize there is a serious need for audiophile engineering in EQ (for best room compensation, personal taste and rejuvenation EQ = boost higher treble) and loudness compensation. A few dB can do magic on these topics and represent much less EQ than a RIAA filter.
If an RIAA curve represents a specific phase alteration inherent in the process does the reverse process correct for it? My relatively trivial talent for math tells me it basically does. The problem is that there is no set standard for the exact design of the filters. This leads to very slight errors in playback and the harder you try to exactly duplicate an inverse curve using a design that differs from the master the recording was made with the nastier the timing aberrations are going to get unless you resort to DSP and try to math them away.
And it's funny that for many years, for just 100€ or so, you can get yourself something like a Cambridge Audio 640p with 0,005% distortion, 86dB SNR and 0,3dB RIAA curve accuracy. No need for audiophile companies to try and reinvent the wheel
The point of the RIAA specifications is that the chain from master to RIAA pre-emphasis through the cutter to the vinyl and back out through the replay chain is flat both in frequency and phase. The use of first order filters means that if you get the time constants right (irrespective of particular component values) the objective is achieved. So it is not the same as apply EQ through tone controls, loudness, graphic EQ or DSPs. So comparing RIAA to EQ is an apples to oranges comparison.
@@paulmilligan3007 I was expecting this comment and yes, obviously a RIAA filter correctly designed does not cause phase issues. The degree of phase distortion or any other artifacts of other use of EQ depends on how it’s designed. If using DSP you can use math to optimize towards linear phase and best audiophile performance. Rather than declaring all EQ as evil, I would like to see audiophile passion behind it cause reality is that we need it for a number of solid reasons. I hate sitting in front of a >US$100,000 system identifying serious linearity issues due to room or even speaker performance concerns. And such system can still sound rather poor at low volumes due to how our hearing becomes more narrow band at low volumes (Fletcher Munson curves issue). I once attended a blind test where the engineer fooled us by adding loudness compensation claiming it was a cable change and everybody loved it.
Text book RIAA design is easy* to understand. However we are dealing with essentially a electro-magnet motor, driven by a moving arm (stylus). The resitance presented to movement is partially the loading impedance of the cartridge. This is harder to make work, as no two cartridges are the same. The gain and noise are understood and modern electronics can cope well with this. It may be your Phono amplifier isn't better, just the combination of the cartridge, cable interconnect capacitance and the final load presented works well.
That's why I have always said that most of vinyl sound quality comes from the phono preamp's EQ. How could a company win competition in phono preamp selling, if they couldn't ADD some more "nice" EQ other than the RIAA specs?? If not, they all would be basically the same (maybe some differences to components quality, but nothing more) Guys!! Hello? Of course there's more than RIAA EQ into phono preamps. That's why I love to tell people to always apply some EQ into CD reproduction, specially on mid-bass and bass, before comparing it to Vinyl sound!! You will be surprised of how CD's are also great....maybe better? lol Thanks Paul!!!
Hi Paul I am looking at upgrading my phone preamp and cartridge after purchasing a beautiful pair of Aspen FR20s about 6 months ago. If I simplify the end to end phono solution as below. 1. Cartridge 2. Turntable itself with the tonearm 3. Phono preamp Can you please give your expert opinion on what is the order of importance of those 3 components to producing the best sound? E.g. you have said that the speakers make the biggest impact on sound in a HiFi system. Hence, I started with speakers in my upgrade process. Thanks David Melbourne, Australia
It doesn't matter how good speakers you have if your phono preamp is poor sounding. Everyone knows that. Buy a good phono preamp with balanced outputs around €6000 and a good MC stylus around €1200. Only then you are good to go.
Ever hear of a company called Viking of Minnesota? I found a late 60’s tube reel to reel, but the motor broke down, so I’m just using it as a 40w tube preamp for my record/tapes.
Viking tape machines were weird! Most of them had the tape going over the top rather than underneath the head nest. I suppose it could be an advantage for cleaning, but other than that it is rather off-putting. About 44 years ago someone tried to give me a Viking that needed a housing; the three chassis were all separated. I refused it for that reason and because it needed tens of hours worth of cleaning and reconditioning. Of all the things I might later wish I had taken at no initial cost, that mess is Not one of them. Finding a working motor should be easy enough unless they had a tendency to fail.
Honestly, these days I would be a bit surprised if there is a difference between the cheap and high end phono preamp. It's easy to build a near silent switching power supply, and if you use negative feedback for your RIAA correction, well then pair your SMPS with a couple opamps and call it a day.
there is a big difference between a $1200 and a $6000 phono preamp. The $6000 has balanced XLR outs and are much much more quieter due to the design of the power supply in it, whereas the $1200 one uses socket adapter for power.
Good phono stage must follow the RIAA standard as expected but ultra sonic suppression is essential as playing a worn record produces a lot of ultra sonic garbage which impacts the audio band. The bottom end should also be rolled off due to turntable noise , not all are Linn.
First thanks for answering my question on absolute polarity the other day. I can’t really hear a difference but swapped my speaker cables so it’s notionally “correct” anyway. I’m a satellite communications engineer as a means to pay for my audio habit and in the wireless world, everything is now digital. Indeed we couldn’t make today’s phones with analog parts. It’s simply not possible. I’m curious if anyone has ever made a DSP implementation of the RIAA curve, or a “digital phono pre-amp?” Given the much greater precision DSP can achieve than can analog parts, would there be any merit in doing this? I realize vinyl folks would probably recoil in horror but I just thought it might be an interesting idea.
"Given the much greater precision DSP can achieve than can analog parts..." DSP adds a new layer of processing, which on a high end system, will be audible. The simpler the signal path, combined with quality parts, yields the best sonic results. Quality analog parts are a better choice for a cleaner signal, and more accurate signal. All of the best phono amps, regardless of the price, are 100% analog. If any of those high-end manufacturers could make a better sounding phono-amp with DSP, they would.
Any conversion process leads to loss in SQ, that’s unavoidable. Also, digital by its very nature is lossless, it’s simply sampling of the analogue audio signal. Granted we’re now able to produce very high sample rates, but it will always be lesser to a pure analogue signal.
@clivepacker: One of the presets in the channel equalizer plugin of Logic Pro and GarageBand is meant to be exactly that. Works okay if you don't have high-end demands. At least it doesn't add too much noise. I guess you'll find that in other DAWs too.
There are a few decent affordable phono preamps now . Why don't you make one ? Someone with a $ 1.5K turntable isn't going to buy your $ 3K phono preamp . Suggesting under $ 1k .
Every 3 dB is a doubling of wattage. Every 6 dB is a doubling of voltage (and quadrupling of wattage). So, 60 dB is doubling the voltage 10 times, i.e. 2^^10. That’s a gain of 1024, which is about the same as 1000.
People on hifi forums are weird people. I have been to some and they are not always polite and kind to you. If you have a lot of experience and have tested and compared a lot, but the ones you came up with are something different than many people think, then they will not listen to you and are then difficult towards you. often on hifi forums, people think they know everything and you have to be careful with what you write.
All designed to inflate the price of basic electronic equipment. Everyday components like op amps, resistors, capacitors costing pennies, sold for exorbitant prices. Try listening to the recorded material not your hardware.
PSA forum is too often contentions and demeaning. Mostly a place to brag about purchases and oppose sound views. Because of Elk arrogance, I will not buy a PSA product. On the other hand, some posts are gems and some posters are either funny or warm, sometimes both. Paul McGowan is a gentleman and wizard. Read his Ask Paul posts and videos daily.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
I’m a regular on the PSAudio forum, Elk is superb, never heavy handed, and you all allow us to discuss competitor products which is so rare on a company forum. Really value everything I’ve learnt on there. My phono preamp I spent about the same as my record deck, to me it’s an often overlooked component and it really is the primary conduit of what sound the rest of your system is capable of.
You can look at two other hobbies that a lot of men get involved with cameras and of course, performance cars similar to audio, hi-fi high-end cars, high and stereo high-end cameras and accessories in all three industries I have a truck I am spending $20,000 extra on the truck, I have a camera. I’ve spent several thousand dollars on lenses for the camera and hi-fi. I’ve done the same thing, we can afford and why not that’s what we work for and we’re only here so long on this earth enjoy the best you can afford. I respect you a lot and a lot of people do respect you and a lot of people differ with your opinions and that’s OK too keep up the good work, Paul
I've done some phono preamp designs myself (amateur) and I could say that the hardest part is to make it quiet. That 40db or 60db of gain takes every little noise and makes it huge. Getting the grounding and the power supply right is very important.
Cool!! And did you have the opportunity to add some more EQ nuances other than RIAA guide, to make the sound a little better?
Thanks for the concise explanation as to why phono preamps are so hard to get right especialy in the older designs.
Added the ps audio phono preamp to my system.....couldn't be happier with the sound ... not worried about criticism....it works for my ears and that's all that matters ❤😊
Paul is so spot on here! I’ve gone though handfuls of phono pre amps this year alone. My reference and a stunning example of a well done phono pre is my PS Audio GCPH… Still running strong 💪 and just a superb example of analog done right. 🎉🎉
I like the PSII phono preamp I got at a thrift shop for less than $3. It sounds GOOD.
Thank you, Paul!
Shout out to the gang on the forum.
What are your thoughts on the increasingly popular current mode trans impedance phono preamp designs?
A phono preamp is the most extreme case of EQ (+/- 20dB RIAA filter) and amplification (very high gain). Compared to other parts of an analog audio signal path, this is where passionate excellent engineering often makes the biggest difference. But I find it a bit ironic that those people deep into vinyl are often most anti EQ and anti loudness compensation not realizing they use the most extreme EQ I their own system. I wish PS Audio some day would realize there is a serious need for audiophile engineering in EQ (for best room compensation, personal taste and rejuvenation EQ = boost higher treble) and loudness compensation. A few dB can do magic on these topics and represent much less EQ than a RIAA filter.
If an RIAA curve represents a specific phase alteration inherent in the process does the reverse process correct for it? My relatively trivial talent for math tells me it basically does. The problem is that there is no set standard for the exact design of the filters. This leads to very slight errors in playback and the harder you try to exactly duplicate an inverse curve using a design that differs from the master the recording was made with the nastier the timing aberrations are going to get unless you resort to DSP and try to math them away.
And it's funny that for many years, for just 100€ or so, you can get yourself something like a Cambridge Audio 640p with 0,005% distortion, 86dB SNR and 0,3dB RIAA curve accuracy. No need for audiophile companies to try and reinvent the wheel
Well stated sir. I've always been perplexed about some audiophiles "attitude" towards EQ.
The point of the RIAA specifications is that the chain from master to RIAA pre-emphasis through the cutter to the vinyl and back out through the replay chain is flat both in frequency and phase. The use of first order filters means that if you get the time constants right (irrespective of particular component values) the objective is achieved.
So it is not the same as apply EQ through tone controls, loudness, graphic EQ or DSPs.
So comparing RIAA to EQ is an apples to oranges comparison.
@@paulmilligan3007 I was expecting this comment and yes, obviously a RIAA filter correctly designed does not cause phase issues. The degree of phase distortion or any other artifacts of other use of EQ depends on how it’s designed. If using DSP you can use math to optimize towards linear phase and best audiophile performance. Rather than declaring all EQ as evil, I would like to see audiophile passion behind it cause reality is that we need it for a number of solid reasons. I hate sitting in front of a >US$100,000 system identifying serious linearity issues due to room or even speaker performance concerns. And such system can still sound rather poor at low volumes due to how our hearing becomes more narrow band at low volumes (Fletcher Munson curves issue). I once attended a blind test where the engineer fooled us by adding loudness compensation claiming it was a cable change and everybody loved it.
It must be difficult. Thanks for that explanation.
Text book RIAA design is easy* to understand. However we are dealing with essentially a electro-magnet motor, driven by a moving arm (stylus). The resitance presented to movement is partially the loading impedance of the cartridge. This is harder to make work, as no two cartridges are the same. The gain and noise are understood and modern electronics can cope well with this. It may be your Phono amplifier isn't better, just the combination of the cartridge, cable interconnect capacitance and the final load presented works well.
Hey Paul. How about fixing all those fluorescent lights in your factory/ labs. Convert to LED. lol.
That's why I have always said that most of vinyl sound quality comes from the phono preamp's EQ. How could a company win competition in phono preamp selling, if they couldn't ADD some more "nice" EQ other than the RIAA specs?? If not, they all would be basically the same (maybe some differences to components quality, but nothing more)
Guys!! Hello? Of course there's more than RIAA EQ into phono preamps. That's why I love to tell people to always apply some EQ into CD reproduction, specially on mid-bass and bass, before comparing it to Vinyl sound!! You will be surprised of how CD's are also great....maybe better? lol
Thanks Paul!!!
Paul great Job love from Canada! ❤
Happy Canada 🇨🇦 Day .
From Australia.
Thank you 😊
Hi Paul
I am looking at upgrading my phone preamp and cartridge after purchasing a beautiful pair of Aspen FR20s about 6 months ago. If I simplify the end to end phono solution as below.
1. Cartridge
2. Turntable itself with the tonearm
3. Phono preamp
Can you please give your expert opinion on what is the order of importance of those 3 components to producing the best sound? E.g. you have said that the speakers make the biggest impact on sound in a HiFi system. Hence, I started with speakers in my upgrade process.
Thanks
David
Melbourne, Australia
It doesn't matter how good speakers you have if your phono preamp is poor sounding. Everyone knows that.
Buy a good phono preamp with balanced outputs around €6000 and a good MC stylus around €1200. Only then you are good to go.
Ever hear of a company called Viking of Minnesota? I found a late 60’s tube reel to reel, but the motor broke down, so I’m just using it as a 40w tube preamp for my record/tapes.
Viking tape machines were weird!
Most of them had the tape going over the top rather than underneath the head nest.
I suppose it could be an advantage for cleaning, but other than that it is rather off-putting.
About 44 years ago someone tried to give me a Viking that needed a housing; the three chassis were all separated.
I refused it for that reason and because it needed tens of hours worth of cleaning and reconditioning.
Of all the things I might later wish I had taken at no initial cost, that mess is Not one of them.
Finding a working motor should be easy enough unless they had a tendency to fail.
Interesting! Thank you.
Could PS Audio design a better light tube than those in the ceiling there?
I suspect those are probably LED fixtures by now.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind Do you think these videos are historical?
Nope, they make hifi
@@adotopp1865 No. The fixtures look like LEDs to me and FYI LEDs can also flicker or cycle when in failure.
@@InsideOfMyOwnMind thanks. I didn't know that. I thought they just went off.
Honestly, these days I would be a bit surprised if there is a difference between the cheap and high end phono preamp. It's easy to build a near silent switching power supply, and if you use negative feedback for your RIAA correction, well then pair your SMPS with a couple opamps and call it a day.
there is a big difference between a $1200 and a $6000 phono preamp. The $6000 has balanced XLR outs and are much much more quieter due to the design of the power supply in it, whereas the $1200 one uses socket adapter for power.
Is there a player available that you can plug into a Sennheiser AMBEO MAX soundbar with an HDMI cable that will play MQA cd's?
Good phono stage must follow the RIAA standard as expected but ultra sonic suppression is essential as playing a worn record produces a lot of ultra sonic garbage which impacts the audio band.
The bottom end should also be rolled off due to turntable noise , not all are Linn.
A forum is a safe place no matter what you sit down and read on it. It's on your screen, you'll be fine.
And a fanclub posing as a forum is…. Okay…. Kind of🤔
First thanks for answering my question on absolute polarity the other day. I can’t really hear a difference but swapped my speaker cables so it’s notionally “correct” anyway.
I’m a satellite communications engineer as a means to pay for my audio habit and in the wireless world, everything is now digital. Indeed we couldn’t make today’s phones with analog parts. It’s simply not possible. I’m curious if anyone has ever made a DSP implementation of the RIAA curve, or a “digital phono pre-amp?” Given the much greater precision DSP can achieve than can analog parts, would there be any merit in doing this? I realize vinyl folks would probably recoil in horror but I just thought it might be an interesting idea.
parks audio did it
"Given the much greater precision DSP can achieve than can analog parts..."
DSP adds a new layer of processing, which on a high end system, will be audible. The simpler the signal path, combined with quality parts, yields the best sonic results.
Quality analog parts are a better choice for a cleaner signal, and more accurate signal.
All of the best phono amps, regardless of the price, are 100% analog. If any of those high-end manufacturers could make a better sounding phono-amp with DSP, they would.
@@net_news Wouldn't they most likely have to do the gain first then the curve in DSP?
Any conversion process leads to loss in SQ, that’s unavoidable. Also, digital by its very nature is lossless, it’s simply sampling of the analogue audio signal. Granted we’re now able to produce very high sample rates, but it will always be lesser to a pure analogue signal.
@clivepacker: One of the presets in the channel equalizer plugin of Logic Pro and GarageBand is meant to be exactly that. Works okay if you don't have high-end demands. At least it doesn't add too much noise. I guess you'll find that in other DAWs too.
Paul, please fix the flickering lamp in the background.
There are a few decent affordable phono preamps now . Why don't you make one ? Someone with a $ 1.5K turntable isn't going to buy your $ 3K phono preamp . Suggesting under $ 1k .
*that ceiling light in the back
Indeed.
Isn't 60 db of gain, 10^^6, or 1,000,000 times the gain?
it is 10^(db/20), so 10^(60/20) = 10^3 = 1000
@@giannismag3064 Could you explain were the division in parenthesis, by 20, comes from?
Every 3 dB is a doubling of wattage. Every 6 dB is a doubling of voltage (and quadrupling of wattage). So, 60 dB is doubling the voltage 10 times, i.e. 2^^10. That’s a gain of 1024, which is about the same as 1000.
@@kc9scott Really appreciate your input, thank you.
Schiit Mani 2 sounds better than the 1st one
People on hifi forums are weird people. I have been to some and they are not always polite and kind to you.
If you have a lot of experience and have tested and compared a lot, but the ones you came up with are something different than many people think, then they will not listen to you and are then difficult towards you.
often on hifi forums, people think they know everything and you have to be careful with what you write.
2:15 Hate is not when someone expresses an opinion supported by tests
Review and Measurements of PS Audio PerfectWave DirectStream DAC
tedsmith
Chief digital dude
Sep 2019
He sure isn’t worth reading here - who has time to deal with outright liers.
@@SzalonyPirat-b2r ** liars **
Ok Amir
@@AngryChineseWoman Ok Ted
Paul! You employ a Raiders fan??? Blasphemy!
All designed to inflate the price of basic electronic equipment. Everyday components like op amps, resistors, capacitors costing pennies, sold for exorbitant prices. Try listening to the recorded material not your hardware.
or "Why some people are dumber than others" - better title.
PSA forum is too often contentions and demeaning. Mostly a place to brag about purchases and oppose sound views. Because of Elk arrogance, I will not buy a PSA product. On the other hand, some posts are gems and some posters are either funny or warm, sometimes both. Paul McGowan is a gentleman and wizard. Read his Ask Paul posts and videos daily.
That’s truly insane, basing a purchase decision on a moderator of a forum!