British L66A1: A Pistol for Northern Ireland
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In 1974, the British Royal Army Ordnance Corps purchased about 3,000 .22lr caliber Walther PP pistols to issue as Personal Defense Weapons to service members of the Ulster Defense Regiment. These were to be issued to servicemen (and women) who faced personal threats to their lives. the choice of a .22 caliber pistol is a bit odd, but that's what was done. In about 1980 many of them were refinished with a black lacquer coating called Suncorite and refitted with strengthened firing pins. In 1989 they were officially replaced as Personal Defense Weapons by the Walther P5 Compact and SIG P230, and quite remarkably sold as surplus by the military. They show up today in both European and American collector circles, often not recognized as actual British military-issue pistols.
Thanks to Ozark Machine Gun for loaning me this pistol, and make sure to check out his cool machine gun rental range in Missouri!
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This video has closed a loop for me. I grew up in Norn Iron. When I was 7 years old my best friend accidentally shot and killed himself with his Uncle's personal protection weapon. His Uncle was RUC. I imagine the Police and Army had close ties in the late '70s. I had always believed it was a Walther PPK involved, but more likely it was a L66A1. .22 Rimfire cartridges are everywhere in NI. You'll find them on any farm. He found the gun and thought it was a toy. I won't mention my friend's name, but I think of him often, and I still miss him 41 years later.
Oh, and to the people saying .22LR isn't dangerous, it will penetrate a 7 year old child's skull very effectively.
I'm sorry about your friend, this shouldn't have happened. It's sad that negligent storage of a weapon cost the life of a child
Your last point...there is a reason why
.22 is the caliber most used by hitmen...
@@vornamenachname989 yeah. all it takes is a vital shot. so on that basis ur right because thats what those people would aim for. it is sad though, kinda reminds me of the dude who got shot in the eye/nose cavity with a .22 in a home invasion. and the interogators made him a suspect because they simply didnt notice the .22 wound in his nasal cavity for about an hour. it was that small, it kinda just looked like a bloody nose. but the dude died, if i remember correctly. so yeah, its no joke.
@@JACOBTHASECOND I heard about that, terrible. It's all about shot placement, and one tiny hole in the wrong place can do a lot of damage...
The Walther PP is a rather aesthetically pleasing piece of kit.
Honestly both the PP and Makarov are aesthetically pleasing handguns.
PP and PPK are sexy looking guns
Interestingly, to this day Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK where you can still legally carry a handgun for personal protection.
Civilians aren't allowed to,only some security force members.
@@whodatninja2143 Civilians are allowed to, they just have to be considered under threat by the PSNI
yeah contrary to belief your only allowed one if your at risk your not allowed to carry one solely for self defence and its very hard to get
@@whodatninja2143 not true, anybody can get one if you're in what's considered an "at risk" profession (say jewellers, cash in transit workers etc) or if you're considered to be personally at risk for some reason
Indeed, in the rest of the UK handguns are banned entirely if I'm not mistaken
The .32acp version (L47a1) was still being used by the RAF up until about ten years ago, as a bail out pistol for fast air. The Harrier vest had a nice little holster on the inside for these. Worth a mention.
As soon as I saw "for Northern Ireland" I immediately thought "oh god someone is going to get executed either while carrying this, or by someone carrying this"
Probably both at different times.
Cos no other pistol has ever been used for that purpose? 😉
@@samb2052 Wouldn't be the PPK's first rodeo.
I thought "oh god, whoever is carrying this is going to be executed or car bombed"
First one, then t'other
Known in the British military as a “Disco Gun”
Take it to the disco with you presumably
@@mathy4605 more concealable than a browning HP, so doesn't stick out your jeans as much
Hahaha that sounds about right! I carried the 7.65mm PPKS for a while and I loved it!
@@mathy4605 cus you point it into the air like John Travolta in Saturday Night Fever before firing
@@redram5150 give this man a medal!
1.7K views in 5 mins.
What a success Forgotten Weapons has been.
Good work Ian.
Consistent quality, no clickbait, no frills, no bullshit, no politics, no bait. The way it ought to be.
The comment section has become a sectarian pillbox unfortunately
I think it is the jewel of TH-cam.
Hello Ian it was interesting to see a comment on arms in Northern Ireland and having personal experience of the circumstances it was refreshing to see that it was accurate. If you wished an wholly documented examination of the thinking behind the then procedures and procurement by Northern Ireland Office of PPWs for issue to civilian persons (the Key Persons Protection Scheme KPPS) you could search up the Northern Ireland Appeal Court case of Adams v Secretary of State which details that NIO held stocks of .22LR Walther PP and also .38 Special S&W Model 62 revolvers. The case contains an interesting commentary on the thinking regarding .22LR.
not familiar with it and the only thing DDGs bringing up are court PDFs, whats the long and short of it?
I would love to know why they choose .22? I would guess that they had it for the cadet rifles in stores.
Why not give the off-duty RUC a Browning 9mm pistol, the same pistol used by British forces at the time? I imagine it was the same rationale the Communist-era Czech police were issued CZ-50s in .32ACP (7.65mm) instead of a larger caliber. It is difficult to overthrow a government or harm HMG's forces with a firearm not as powerful as the military's firearms, so the thinking (or lack thereof) went at the time.
The Browning was too large to be effectively concealed off duty and in plain clothes, the Walther was more compact, I was in the RUC and was issued with one, in my case a 9 mm.
William Glass, a Fermanagh County Council dog warden and part-time member of the Ulster Defence Regiment. He was lured to an isolated spot near the Border after receiving a false report about a stray dog. Mr Glass was shot seven times but was able to draw his legally-held handgun and opened fire, killing Joseph McManus the son of then Sinn Fein chairman, Mr Sean McManus. The two other IRA men, who were armed with an assault rifle and a handgun, fled.
King.
And the UDR were angels weren't they? Never involved with loyalist terrorists at all of course.
Ah the perfect knee-capping gun, a proud and nobel tradition of Norn-iron.
The only gun where the coating is more dangerous than the caliber.
22lr is lethal, move on
I suggest you watch some of Paul Harrells presentations on 22lr you would be surprised
@@MrSniperdude01 I've seen many people voluntarily shot by .177. I've never seen anyone volunteer to be shot by 22 lr.
@WITE FOX I've seen many people voluntarily shot by .177. I've never seen anyone volunteer to be shot by 22 lr.
@@DeathtrapCult I heard that 22lr is the most common calibre used in gun murders in the US.
Home service chaps had these, the bloody things, the slides and springs got so weak that you could almost cock them by tilting them backwards.
John Smith it was the troops that only served in Northern Ireland mostly drawn from the local population, they were different types of troops used,;
permanent staff troops posted to NI, mostly technical troops,
Operational tour troops, soldiers on 6 month stints.
And home service these where local troops not used for anything other then the defence of NI, as they quite often lived amongst the local population they took one hell of a risk, with the woolly faces, attacking there homes and families.
@John Smith Israel IS a terrorist nation instrumental in creating so much havoc in the ME and the world. England interfered with Iran's politics for almost a century stealing it's resources at will. We reap what we sow.
@@alistairsamson299 funny way of saying colonisers
That sounds dangerous
My father grew up in Northern Ontario, Canada in time when people regularly hunted to feed themselves. A .22 lr was a luxury item and was treated with respect. You learned to shoot accurately and to place your shots so you could actually drop and retrieve your target. He bagged deer with .22 lr although it required more patience and a bit of luck to set up the right shot. Don't underestimate this round.
Same happened in Russia. One of my relatives shot a moose with .22. He had to trace it and shoot 5 more times. I know it's cruel and should not be done. But it was a opportunity to provide food for the family. Nothing was wasted.
We call them Poachers.......
If you need to remind people it should be treated with respect, you’re doing it wrong. Hunting small game isn’t equivalent to self defense, when the purpose is stopping someone who has no respect towards you.
Also, “a bit of luck and patience” isn’t how it works in the situation this gun would be used. Most shootings are brief. Aiming for center mass is taught because limbs can move quickly making them hard to hit. If you have the time to carefully aim for nonvital organs or parts of legs or arms that don’t have arteries, any prosecutor worth their salt will argue it wasn’t a defensive gun use. There’s a very good reason why 9mm is the most common round used by police and militaries the world over for the same reason 22lr is not
My uncle told me that his dad and uncles hunted fowl and game with .22 LR. They had other rifles and shotguns but often not enough money to afford anything but .22 rounds. And if they didn't grow it on the farm, shoot it or fish it, they (and their large families) got a bit hungry. It is also, as Walter points out, very popular with poachers due to its quieter report.
I have an Astra copy of this gun in .22 that my grandma used to keep in her nightstand. Funny to see a .22 used for personal protection, but some gun is better than no gun.
I think is logicall, better be judged for injuring than for killing if you make a mistake....
A government employee shouldn’t have to settle for “something is better than nothing”. The UK may have been broke at that time, but they weren’t so broke they couldn’t afford proper handguns
Very strange choice, particularly as the 7.65 mm version was already in service as the L47A1.
Had one. .
Lots of Walthers were issued to other army units and prison officers as well. I think it was more a case of it was something they were familiar with and also they didnt want something too effective being "lost". The PPW were for more of a deterrent effect and to at least give the option of return fire until rescue hopefully arrived
@@davem2369 The 7.65 mm version would have been even more familiar and still not a devastating weapon.
Worried about collateral damage. Lots of civilians and it was personnel defence.
@@leshmahagow364 that’s an asinine excuse
Another excellent video Ian - much thanks. I purchased a commercial version of this pistol in 1974 - it is highly cherished and heavily used. I did carry it concealed for several years. Its easy to rapidly put bullets into tight groups at surprisingly long ranges. I always thought it was a fine defensive pistol - nice to hear the British troops thought so as well.
👍
My father left the RUC In the early 90s, they said he could keep his service revolver as a PPW, But it was a .357 ruger and he said no, as it was to heavy and clumsy, he wanted something smaller, so they gave him a Walter PP .380, and it had Nazi eagles stamped on it.
I was in the regular RUC from 1974 to 1977, I was issued with a 9mm Walther semi-automatic as a personal issue.
@@jamesurquhart1142 my father was full-time reserve 1977 to 1991, we moved a few yrs ago and my mum said no guns in the new house, the troubles r over, she hated them, her father was shot and killed by the IRA in the 80s he was UDR, so I gave them a good clean and notice the firing pin on the Walter pp was broken in half, my dad had never fired it.
@@jamesurquhart1142 and the box of ammo they gave him was 9mm not .380, had it loaded in the mag and everything, good job the firing was broke, good job he never needed to use it
@@jamesurquhart1142 I bet u have sum crazy stories, I know from talkin with my father and uncles, some of the things they saw, did and happen to them was something they will never forget, the good days and the bad ones
At the beginning of this Video you can see Gun Jesus displaying his Psychic abilities to his Flock.
When you showed the left side, I thought the slide looked cast; your explanation of a paint job clarified it.
Just finished going through all of your previous videos and then I get the notification for this one.
The Mark of the Beschussamt Ulm is not a Elk antler, but a deer antler. Just like in the coat of arms of Württemberg there are three deer antlers.
A hirsch is called elk . Yes its supposed to be a deer, looks like a elk to me.
@@CHMichael wait, according to my quick research on google translator, elk is english for Elch. Deer is on the lines of Hirsch. And as the antlers in the württemberg coat of arms are Hirschstangen, the translstion would be deer antlers, not elk antler.
Quick google for “hirsch antler” I’m seeing what looks like an elk. However being an avid hunter here in the US I’ve not seen that native species of game. Majority of the photos are from red deer, a large game animal from Europe/Asia that looks larger than our deer species but not quite as large as an elk. So I could see a mix up to those without a keen eye.
I’m also in Texas which has a huge year round exotic hunting market. You can harvest non native species any time any place and that “hirsch” looks like what I’d call a red stag. Larger that native deer species and just a bit smaller than an elk.
Also had a conversation with a German guy once that called an elk a moose. We exchanged pics and sure enough it was an elk. Then I shared pics with him of what a moose really was.
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 i am not a hunter and not very knowledgeable in Animals in general. I just learned that elk is Elch, Moose can be elk too and that deer is Reh or Hirsch. Thats just school english, which is why i dont trust myself to be correct. Given the linguistic similarity between elk and Elch, i assumed them to be the same species. And knowing the coat of arms features "Hirschstangen", which i knew in english as deer, i pointed out Mister mcCollums phrasing.
@@hailtothe_rooster1572 I’m not sure about Germany, but in Sweden an Elk (Alg) is what is known as a Moose in N America. What Americans call Elk is known as Deer in Europe, and I understand the German for deer to be Hirsch.
"Best known for being insanely toxic and no longer in use, but that's what the British military was using at the time."
Sounds about right.
And when liquid, even smells toxic
I was one of the soldiers who was issued one of these ppws i wasn't happy getting a 22 but they were excellent wee weapons later issued with a
walther P5 9mm , lots of guys bought there own ie S&W 38 special, SIG Sauer baretta 9 mm.
Yet another brilliant highly informative video from Tim, love the little details, keep up the good work👍
From the stories I heard about the Troubles, these were not a fancy luxury.
From the turn of the last century there were as many arms passing through Northern Ireland as there were diamonds through Antwerp.
More people were murdered in Chicago last year than were killed annually in the NI conflict.
@John Smith "the comparison is off", a human life is a human life. It doesn't matter where or how one is killed the loss is as real.
In Chicago children are being killed far more frequently than children were in NI but that's not so tragic because you deem Chicago, or some of it's neighbourhoods at least, not to be part of civil society.
@John Smith so if a Chicago resident moved to say Canada and then was shot dead that would be worse than if they remained in Chicago and were shot dead.
@Andre Guitard who are the colonies? Sorry I don't understand.
Didn't knew about 'em, sure that it must shot well; looks like a good pistol for plinking to me.
I have a pre war Walther PP in .22 lr and it is as you say a perfect plinker! I call it a Walther Pocket Plinker. It keeps 5 shot within 30 mm c-c at 25 m when i do my part from a bench.
While not ideal, the .22LR shouldn’t be completely over looked. Here’s a link for an excellent testing video from Taofledermaus:
th-cam.com/video/rk_A-xjYQNg/w-d-xo.html
I wish you a' Happy Thanksgiving' my friend, we all still have much to be thankful for here in the U.S.A. We thank you for passing on your vast knowledge of fire arms to us...
Hello from Northern Ireland! My Uncle owns one of these, It's a nice little pistol to shoot.
Now I own it lol
The good old Walter PPK, as also issued to the drivers of the Courts Witness Section (CWS) in NI. A few kettles got shot by those, lol.
Walther PP (Polizei Pistole/Police Pistol), not PPK (Polizei Pistole Kriminal/Police Pistol Detective). PPK is smaller to fit in a shoulder holster for concealment.
Aaron Leverton , as I understand, The PPK is shorter than the PP by 0.6″ and has no metal backstrap, so the grips wrap around the rear. The PPK also has a shorter grip, and the magazines hold one less round. The PPK/S is a combination of the two. It has the shorter barrel and slide of the PPK, but the longer grip of the PP. so arguably not that much smaller.
This is very interesting and unusual being a .22LR rimfire version. I served with 321 EOD Unit RAOC in Northern Ireland in 1978 and I carried a PPKS for a while. My own issue pistol was the Browning 9mm (Hi-Power). CATO was issued with a Walther PPKS in 7.65mm (.32 ACP), but he wanted something with a bit more stopping power so I arranged with his driver to swap mine for his. I was a good shot with a pistol so I was happy to trade power for accuracy and off duty concealment. It was the most accurate pistol I ever fired.
@@Sableagle I can assure you there was nothing of a joke about that unit or its name, we lost a lot of good operatives saving lives and property on both sides of the divide.
this is my wife's carry gun, but made by Iver Johnson. TP-22. the bottom finger hold of the mag is broke, but i think Bond would understand. his first carry Baretta had black tape for grips. Q made him give it up to be replaced by the PPK.
The CARTRIDGE LOADED INDICATOR was Also EMITTED from this model...for "Safety considerations" as This was in .22 LR Rimfire
Literally nobody else has a video on this
We love gun Jesus
British Soldier: "Gee thanks, I bet this will piss em' off before they glass me and beat me senseless behind the pub."
I'm sure it'd work...in a phone booth
Brits don't say 'Gee'
Hey mates, we appreciate your service. But not enough to buy you a .32 or .380. only the Brits would mount a lanyard loop on a concealed carry pistol.
Depends on where you shoot and what kind of ammo you use, shot placement is critical for the 22 LR and a headshot is almost guaranteed to be fatal if it still has enough energy to pierce the skull; it'll then start bouncing around inside the skull. Hence why it was supposedly often favored by assassins.
@@cnlbenmc Please stop spreading that absolute nonsence, it doesent "BOUNCE AROUND"
My Uncle used to be a prison officer in Northern Ireland and I always remember him having a gun he kept at home, was absolutely adamant it was a Walther PPK, however it was most likely one of these. I remember seeing it years and years ago but at the time just assumed it was 9mm as I was way too young to understand the concept of different cartridges, every handgun was 9mm as far as I was concerned.
Lol that was the first handgun I ever shot. I looked for information on it, but all I could find was a few short British articles on it. Great review
This would be a good gun for the back up gun match
id love for you to do more episodes on guns from northern Ireland like when you went to Ares to see the avenger, it would be good if you looked at more examples of home produced guns from the area and time period as i heard they produced a very good uzi replica called the ulster uzi
Also the plumbers pipe sten.
Shipyard specials.
The Avenger was one of the most impressive.
I picked one up a few months ago that has all the correct proof markings, serial range, lanyard loop, P, but in original weathered blue.
have a commercial PP in .22 LR. I bought it because Skeeter said it was his favorite plinker. I can get it take 11 rounds in the mags and the only problem is the safety is a two handed operation. It is very accurate and lots of fun to shoot. DA is a bit stiff but SA is a delight.
Ahh, suncorite nothing smells quite like it, like the armourers equivalent to sniffing glue 🤪🥴! Don't try it at home kids very fumey stuff ! Lol
Suncorite 528 RFU black contains Zincphosphate as active ingredient to protect the steel, Phenol (mutagenic, toxic) and Formadehyde (carcinogenic, toxic) that form Phenol formaldehyde resin.
@@Mnkskanal yes joking aside its pretty nasty stuff, even back then any touching up of weapons was usually done carefully in well ventilated area or outside if possible.
@@Mnkskanal So it smells like a teaching hospital's morgue.
Na Cosmoline is the inhalant of the armourer's world
It's also the only lacquer that I know of that is resistant to aircraft stripper
Issued a lot to the female staff of the UDR. Known as "the Greenfinches",Most of the off duty UDR /Brit military men carried the Browning Hi-power 9mm, which was the std issue sidearm. The irony of Ni and the Republic of Ireland .NI has probably the most liberal gun laws in the entire British Isles group[Bar maybe Isle of man] with concealed carry being legal. While the Irish Republic has the most restrictive gun laws in the entire European Union,and the highest criminal gun crime as well. Fight hard for 2A lads...Otherwise you'll end up like us over here.
I have mates who are pistol shooters who travel to Europe for competitions, they have to fly from Dublin because they can't take their pistols into GB from NI but they've no bother taking them into Dublin Airport. No problem with Irish customs.
Well said sir. Fighting we are! From south Florida.
Sure. Because all we have is the 2A to prevent a religious war here... < rolls eyes > No two places are the same, child, and trying to pretend otherwise just causes more grief. Now run along and play.
@@wlewisiii Sir, make your point without the disrespectful tone and words. Not necessary and people might respect your opinion more. Enjoy the day.
Of course levels of gun crime in the Republic probably don't bear much resemblance to levels in the US. So ending up like the Republic has some considerable points in favour.
Hi ,in the early 1970s we (ROYAL MILITARY POLICE), had a number of commercial PP in 7.65mm issued worldwide. I first came across them during CP duties in NI. Nice for the slim fitting suits of the time. But as one of the guys said the Browning went BANG louder and longer.
Cool. I'll keep an eye out for these.
I believe in Alaska during WWII American soldiers were issues 22 pistols for wild game.
It was not issued exclusively for the personal protection of off-duty members of the Uslter Defence Regiment (aka the 'Upside Down Regiment'; the 'Usually Drunk Regiment', or - with black humour - the 'Untimely Death Regiment', which kinda hints at why this weapon was indeed a necessity for these volunteer/mainly part-time soldiers, whose lives were genuinely at greater risk when they were living their civilian existence, then when they were on a military duty shift).
It was also issued to some regular troops, whose tour of duty had them in roles for which civilian dress and modes of travel were the norm. Case in point - at some stage during a tour in NI in 1975 (or maybe a year or two later) I bumped into another officer I knew, who was employed as some kind of Press liaison, and had one of these in a neat little shoulder holster (which prob'ly woulda stayed concealed but for the 'occasional/unintentional' O-look-at-me hand-on-hip stance he seemed to have acquired since the last time our paths crossed ;-) )
I have to say that seeing this weapon, on HIM (of all people), took a whole lot of the shine off the PR job Bernard Lee's 'M' had done for the PP series, when he foisted one on (Sir) Sean Connery's 007, in the very first Bond movie in 1962 (screened over a decade earlier, when I was but 7 or 8 years of age - and my Dad took me to the cinema to watch it :-D )
Bond didn’t carry a 22 though. Even filmmakers knew it was underpowered.
“Not issued exclusively for personal protection”. Then WTF was it issued to them? They weren’t hired to hunt rabbits. If someone isn’t trustworthy with a gun they aren’t given a different gun. They aren’t armed with one at all. Being part-time isn’t an excuse either
@@redram5150 Missed both my points - hope you're better at target shootin'! 🤪🥴
On point one: It is absolutely one thing (as an awestruck 8-year-old) to watch a Walther being slipped into the shoulder holster of an all-time action hero played by Connery, leaving an indelible impression in a young mind. It is quite another, over a decade later to encounter a shoulder-holstered Walther in real life, for the first time - suspended beneath the flabby armpit of a pot-bellied mid-20 years old desk-jockey poseur. Irrespective of calibre.
On point 2: the more literate or less hasty reader will have understood "not issued exclusively . . . . . . [to] members of the UDR . . . . also issued to some regular troops".
But I thank you for your interest.
Shared this video with my father who was in the Int Corps and spent most of his second NI tour in plain clothes and he wasn't aware of these Walthers but he carried a .22 Berretta that was technically on the books as a training weapon but given out as a theatre expedient "what do we have in the armoury that will do the job". His - very personal - take on the calibre: "Much like the sand bags we put on the floor of our Land Rover out in Oman as 'mine protection', the main reason for carrying it was to make us feel less vulnerable so the calibre was pretty much irrelevant so might as well carry something a bit lighter."
@@TheColonelSponsz 'M' was very scathing about Berettas as I recall 😉
@@philipsturtivant9385 "The Berretta was good against paper targets on the range and I'm very glad that's all I ever needed to use it for."
Picked one up in a Pawn Shop with box and spare mag for $350 OTD a couple of years ago. Ian's comment about them floating around with folks not realizing what they are is spot on. I think most people are put off by the painted finish and assume it's Bubba work.
Nice! Do you still have it?
I believe use of Suncorite 259 (over phosphate) has only recently (mid-2000s?) ceased. It was a "self-phosphating" paint similar to stove enamel (also a paint) and finished in an oven.
You know I once asked my Dad were the Troubles really that bad? He said they were worse.
Ehh
Someone once asked my father why he refused to let me play with guns as a child, and he told them this story:
During a polite disagreement just south of Armagh the RUC pulled back and ordered us in, after a short while there where some fireworks going off [common tactic to make army think they're being shot at] and a general set of melee started to evolve.
A few shots did ring out, towards us but I wouldn't exactly say at us, followed by seeing a barrel appear from behind a corner, right at the height you'd expect someone kneeling to produce one, we'd already been given the order to fire at anyone who had a weapon at this point, so I quickly aimed at it and started to pull the trigger.
A kids head appeared, I was aiming right at his head, I was already at point where I was about to fire, and quickly moved my left hand, the round struck the wall, rifle fell.
Luckily no reports of a dead child appeared, so at best the kid got a face full of brick debris.
@@braden1986 Sounds like my childhood, only with less brick dust. God I miss that old AK I had back then.
@Fin Fun At 3,532 dead and 47,500+ injured, I really, REALLY hope that South Chicago was not and will never be as bad as The Troubles. A very brief check of the Chicago Sun Times from 2019 said they had 510 (debated in the article) homicides that year. Sometimes PIRA would call in a bomb they had placed so that the place would be evacuated. Sometimes they were evacuated in time, sometimes they weren't.
@@braden1986 That's why parents were told not to buy their kids toy guns.
5:08 I believe Israel issued Ruger 10/22s in the 70s or 80s as "less lethal" for crowd control until the supreme court stepped in and said "nope, these are lethal"
@Vicky Caramel we're talking about people that dome children for throwing a rock I don't think they are capable of grasping the concept of less lethal
It was considerably more recent than that. It did start around 87, but it's definitely in use as recently as the last 5 years www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/21/israel-adopts-ruger-sr-22-in-less-lethal-sniper-role/
“Can kill you” isn’t equivalent to “adequate self defense cartridge”
It is technically less lethal. It doesn't mean not lethal.
I own a standard West German Walther PP in 22lr. it is an incredibly well made pistol and one of my favorites.
Awesome little gun, I actually carry one on a daily basis and love it. Small and compact and still have a little punch to it. Mine is in the 32000's serial range and also a .22lr
Ah, no better way to start the day than with an interesting bit of history and a short sermon from Gun Jesus.
Be excellent to each other.,
im sure this comment section will be civil lol
Any time Northern Ireland is mentioned - Chaos lol
Queue Howell promotional video.
So far, most debates here have been people arguing about the lethality of .22 (it bloody is - just because you're plinking with it doesn't matter, it can still easily kill a man with one shot). That said, I haven't scrolled down very far yet. Wish me luck!
Between .22 northern Ireland, The Troubles, and British guns. Civility can be almost guaranteed.
Well its better craic than arguing about fecking covid.🤣
I carried the later Walther P5c for 5 years then when issued PPW's started to be withdrawn in the late 90's I bought my own CZ75 as a PPW and was licenced to carry it. Never had to fire it but did have to "show" it once or twice to persuade people to make other choices about approaching me!
Cool little 22. Thanks for the vid sir.👍🏼👍🏼
"Did the british copy the PP?"
- Gun Jesus, 2020
I would love to see a video that explain gun proof test and what does it require, I do love your videos and been subscribed for 5 years now! I think that I watched all of them :)
Proof testing is where they deliberately fire an over pressure round and the barrel is supposed to survive it without any damage. How over pressure the round is depends a lot on the time and place that they were being tested in. You may have heard of +p ammo before and that's exactly what it is. They pack more gunpowder than is standard into the same case so that it has a bit more "oomph" but the result of this is a higher than normal pressure. It varies a bit per round type but a good rule of thumb is that +p is 10% higher than is standard for that round with each additional + signifying an additional 5%. A proof test round will normally be well in excess of what actual standard +p ammo is these days, especially for a military weapon. In older days before cartridges most barrels would be proof tested by doing something like loading 2 or even 3 charges of power and shot on top of each other to simulate something like a stressed soldier forgetting that he had already loaded the gun once or put in more powder than he should have. The idea being that you can know that while doing something like this repeatedly is definitely bad for the gun, doing this once won't just cause it to explode.
I had one and foolishly sold it. It shot wonderfully and I hope to get a Walther or Manurihn PP in 22LR next year.
You know it's gonna be a good video when Ian starts explaining before introducing Forgotten Weapons.
I literally thought the words in my head “That looks like a Walther model PP.” and then Ian said it.
Ian: Its basically a Walther PP
Me: Interested..
Ian: In .22Lr
Me: pfffffffffffft
Don´t hate on it, it is a fantastic plinker. A real tack driver that is cheap to shoot.
@@RiderOftheNorth1968 was cheap to shoot. Might be again someday. Hopefully
@@frugalsoul9984 that depends really on your locale and "political turmoil" situation, .22 prices haven't changed at all in the last year in the UK.
Isn't ppk in 22 very common due to it's being easily suppressed and concealed?
@@weegaz22 yeah I'm in the US. No .22 available on the shelf at my local shops at all
Very cool! Thanks Ian!!
British also used ppk, p5,and browning hi power. Never new this one. Thanks!
many years ago I was watching news coverage of Gulf 1, the camera was pointed inside the hangar with an RAF Tornado the crew exited walked up to a sandbox and performed the military type clearing ritual to handguns which they removed from their survival vests the image was clear enough to make out the general size and shape but no details as far as I was aware standard British military issue at that time was still a Browning GP these pistols were definitely smaller so I came to the conclusion they were Walther PPs probably in .380 thinking that's a bit archaic for Tornado pilots, now listening to you they could possibly have been Sig Saurs not having anywhere to check I'll leave this to anyone out there who may know different
I read (many years ago) John Nichol's book "Tornado Down" about his shootdown and subsequent experience as a prisoner in Iraq during GW1. I recall a passage where he complained that his previous reliable pistol had been replaced with a 7.65mm weapon that he was very unimpressed with. He related that when he was captured he was glad he hadn't tried to make a stand because the pistol jammed after the first round when his captor fired it in the air.
@@alun7006 that most definitely sounds like a Walther
During Exercises in the RAF in the early 1980’s we often saw aircrew on Jaguars and later Tornado’s carrying Walther PP’s as personal weapons.
I find it odd that they were issued with a .22lr pistol for self defence.
Great video, thank you Ian!
Interesting factoid to add, based on my research.....the serial number range of Walther ( to include Manurhin-branded, which ran parallel serial numbers) model PP's in 22LR.... ran rather consistently in number of units-per-year.... from the earliest post-war re-introduction to when they stopped in late 1985. It starts with 10,002 on March 1954 and ends with 53,841 on August 1985. If we assume rather constant per-year manufacture, this makes about 1414 / yr. It would also place this gun's number ( 42608LR) at about Spring 1977...which fits closely to the claim made here it started around 1974 for this series for Britain.
Interesting that they lack a broad arrow. I am wondering, will they empty a magazine in rapid fire without a jam?
They will if you use decent ammo.
If the gun is properly maintained, and decent ammunition is used.
Will do that no problem
I read a lot of comments dissing the .22lr, those guys have obviously never seen anyone shot with a .22lr.
I wouldn't fancy a couple of 40gr slugs in the chest.
@@snaggletooth555 or " behind the ear " !!
the same guys are obviously not aware that a .22lr HV hollow point copper jacket clocks in at 1640fps/s, thats more punch than a .32
I've seen two. Both walked to their vehicles and drove to the ER. Was out the same day.
I’ve heard that 22lr is one of the most common calibers people are killed by, presumably due to how common they are, and due to some people treating them as if they aren’t dangerous at all.
Fascinating little piece, this is the kind of firearm obscura I come here for!
Cool little Pistol! I own a PPK and a P22 they're top notch.
I think the UDR were equivalent to national guard in the states, so they lived locally and as British military they were vulnerable to attack by the PIRA when off duty...
They were originally a national guard style force however they eventually developed into a "professional" home service infantry regiment with full time members.
They were also notoriously heavy handed and sectarian
@@padraig6200 Quote "They were also notoriously heavy handed and sectarian" In your opinion, not every ones.
No they were literally a paramilitary terror group that was clandestinely assisted by the government
Correct. Having had relatives and acquaintences in it thats the closest comparison you can make to an American unit. It was only for use in NI as well and frequently the term "home service regiment" was used to describe them. Frequently they were used as guards at infrastructure or paticipating in roadblocks with the RUC. They quickly developed a reputation of being infiltrated by the paramilitaries and there was, to say the least a lack of trust, in them in on both sides
@@jean-lucperez3296 😂😂🤣🤣 Good one
Yes, we do end with weird numbered guns, but let's be honest it's better than "M1" everything
M1 bayonet, as fitted to the M1 Garand
M1 carbine
M1 chemical mine
M1 flamethrower, a WWII-era flamethrower
M1 Garand, a battle rifle
M1 helmet
M1 mortar
M1 Thompson submachine gun
M115 howitzer, also known as 8-in Howitzer M1
120 mm M1 gun, an anti-aircraft gun
240 mm howitzer M1
90mm M1 Gun, one of a family of dual purpose guns
Guncrafter Industries Model No. 1, a handgun
M1 Thompson carbine
57 mm Gun M1, a US designation for the British Ordnance QF 6-pounder
M1 rocket launcher, a bazooka variant
Source: Wikipedia, if you input M1 the search bar.
It just means mark-1 That's not how they are identified.
My dad served in NI for several years from late 60s to very early 70s. He and other soldiers worked in civilian clothes with civilian hairstyles and facial hair. He carried the 9mm Browning pistol and in their civilian car (a mini for those country lanes) carried some type of shortened or compact rifle that I haven't been able to identify. I've spoken to a lot of people who served there and have never heard of these Walthers.
Late 80s and 90s they re issued the walther pp in 380acp/9mm short for personal protection and as a service police pistol
It should be noted that the UDR originally kept their small arms (pistols rifles and smgs) at home as they could be called up at short notice.
But they had a habit of having their guns "stolen" and turning up later on in Loyalist weapons stashes.
They eventually mostly stopped this practice, for obvious reasons, but that didn't stop the infiltration of the UDR by the UVF and UDR men often had dual membership with the UDA (which wasn't illegal until 1992!).
The membership wasn't illegal but there were purges of UDA and UVF members in the 70's and onwards (UDR was formed before the UDA existed) and stringent background checks. Keeping an eye on people that lived in the community alongside the UDA/UVF etc was always going to be an intelligence nightmare.
@Smelly Bender Robin Jackson himself also being a member of the UDR
Correct, membership of the UVF was grounds for discharge (not criminal prosecution interestingly) and UDA membership generally was frowned upon but wasn't against the rules.
I'm sure it was a nightmare for GHQ and the police in the vetting process, they got a seriously large number of volunteers at the beggining too
@@padraig6200 in the early stages i think about a third of it waa Catholic (lets try not to confuse religion and political affiliations in the Troubles). The assorted paramilitaries sprung up as self defense groups in local communities and the UDA wasnt immediately considered a threat, inthink thenpolice and military considered it an overblown neighbourhood watch, though that quickly changed.
@@davem2369 correct, many people don't realise the UDR was pretty Catholic at one point. At the time the UDR was formed the Inniskillings were being drawn down and their mostly Catholic rank and file just joined the UDR in Fermanagh, however due to paramilitary threat from the IRA and internal pressure on catholics the UDR ended up being 99% protestant by 1974
What was the thought process behind issuing a .22lr walther pp for self defence...
They were more of a deterrent than a threat, also 1970's CCW technology wasnt exactly were it is today. The British had a relationship with Walther and .32 and .380 were already in service with assorted people. I think .22lr was also used as many of the UDR didnt have extensive weapons training and there was also the desire that if it ended up in the hands of someone it shouldn't that it wasnt an effective combat weapon.
Knowing the UK government, they were probably more worried about the trouble caused by bystanders getting hit accidentally than the lives of the person serving.
I think you also need to understand the UDR was also considered to have a number of unreliable members in its ranks. Giving them all access to a decent combat pistol was also probably not considered a good move
Every Shooting and Fishing store in NI would carry .22LR but that's about it. A lot of UDR members were farmers and would have had a .22 cal rifle licence anyway so they were able to stock up with ammo.
Something better than nothing
Funnily enough, I think this is the only pistol every handled outside of demonstration. When I was about 20, the owners kid climbed up above the oven and handed this instantly recognisable ppk looking gun. The dad was a Northern Ireland prison guard. Was about 1993- maybe prison guards were less of a priority.
In 1974 a PPK carried by a DPG officer famously jammed during an attempt to kidnap Princess Anne. It was high profile event and a lot of Walthers were immmdiatley retired. Though other parts of Britsh Military still have some knocking about.
Why 22? In case they were captured by the enemy? Because they're compact by 1974 standards? To keep collateral damage down? To keep a "military caliber" gun off the streets? (think 38 super) Because the Brits wanted the James Bond gun and 22 was the only option within budget?
In case they were handed to the enemy. UDA penetration of the UDR was well established.
Why it so late
Also thanks for all the videos
I recently ran across some information that I found quite interesting. It seems that Great Britain, through the Lend Lease Act, acquired Winchester Model 74 rifles in 22LR equipped with scopes (I believe 4x) and supressors. They were issued to Home Guard type units as sniper rifles for close range (~100 yds) sniping. It would be neat to see if any of those have shown up in the civilian market anywhere.
It was the Auxilliary units who had them. Its a fascinating subject if you want to look them up. www.staybehinds.com/kit/sniper-rifle
I was aware of that.I like the 74,my grandfather had one,though in USA, not uk
If you ever roll through Lebanon, Missouri, also try to do some fishing. The smallmouth bass fishing in the Missouri Ozarks is off the hook.
Me: So you're saying British subjects could have arms for their defence, I bet that was never a thing in Britain.
1689 English Bill of Rights: Well, actually my good man...
only if you were a protestant...
@@weegaz22 sounds like a good law to me
The law was around until 1937 “any man sound of mind has the right to bare arms” that meant anything firearm too like the American constitution
sadly the spirit of england is long dead, replaced in the minds of the leadership by something quite sinister.
@@eternalemperorvalkorion750 the constitution is based from the English bill of rights, and rightly so. England has always made the best laws..until the lefty nut cakes got a say in the matter, now the laws are those of a mental patient.
They were not allowed to carry in mainland UK when in for training. The UDR guys were awesome because they really were in the sniper scope back in N.I during the "Troubles"
Thank you , Ian .
Really enjoyed this review Ian. While watching you review this PP a thought occurred. With the recent passing of Sean Connery, would you consider doing a "Forgotten Weapons: Guns of James Bond" special episode..?
Timely given Amazons accidental uniting of Ireland with its rugby streaming service last week!
Comrade IRAmazon fighting the good fight for a united Ireland. Sing up the RA!
@@TheFanatical1 Amazon is trash, they don't even offer same day delivery on AR-18s.
ATTENTION ALL POSTERS
This is now a N O R N I R O N thread
😄😄😄
*PSNI entered the chat*
What about ye big lawd
Tiocfaidh ár lá
'Bout ye?
currently reading Tim Pat Coogan's "The Troubles" so this is very timely
After having the top slide come clean off my Browning Highpower I was very grateful to get a Disco back-up!
Never been this early, thanks insomnia. And it's about the troubles! My favorite!
We’re getting closer to the L34A1
Completely new to me. I'd heard of the PPK in 7.62mm (.32ACP) for RAF air crew, and also the Walther PP (also .32ACP) for plain clothes work in NI, but the L66A1? Never heard of it. And certainly never heard of the P5 being issued. Well, well, well, everyday really is a schoolday.
thank you Ian, now i have new insider knowledge to tell my friends, if they want or not :D
Well at first I thought .22LR was pretty anemic, but then I remembered reading an account of a sqaudie in NI sometime in the 70s or 80s.
He's doing something that they decided warranted a personal protection weapon, so they give him a .38 Webley with WW2 era ammunition!
So when it was time to give it back in he decides he might as well use the 6 rounds up at the range.
2 fired ok, 2 click-bangs (one of which didn't even clear the barrel) and 2 complete duds...
Although suppose with the Webley he could have always pistol whipped or even threw it at them?
I don't think these were ever surplus'd by the MOD/HM govt, i believe the Army issued ones are still held in reserve (as is most weaponry dating back about 100 years). I think these would have Been procured by the MOD (Along with the L47 7.65mm also used by RAF/Army/FAA pilots, Tankers etc right up until the 90's and possibly still issued as E&E weapons).
I think this is actually the case that this was procured for the MOD for the Royal Ulster Constabulary of Northern Ireland, which also gave these out as off duty weaponry. And makes more sense that the RUC would surplus these as they were replaced by ruger speed 6s.
The MOD is anal-retentive about keeping almost anything that could be remotely useful (in a defensive posture) in a future war in terms of small arms - they still have stocks of Martini Enfields. The only Surplus small arms sold off is to other governments, or so obsolete that they could possibly never be used against them. Surprisingly they are less fussy about warships, helicopters, tanks, APCs, and other vehicles than small arms.
Utter drivel.. stocks of small arms have been destroyed. There are very few reserve stocks these days, particularly as only a percentage of the L85 A1 were upgraded to A2..
Are you sure about that? They already dumped a bunch of SLRs in the North Sea, I can’t see them having much use for martini-Enfields
Yes I'm sure, MOD donnington was full of old MLEs, undergoing inspection but had stuff wrapped up with much older dates on them. they do not maintain but do inspect and ensure everything is stored correctly.
They do periodically destroy items (as in plasma cut) sterling'siven the risk of criminal enterprise and terrorism.
degradation
It is true that there aren't any A1's left, but that's because they're all converted to A2 or even A3 standard.
@@matthayward7889 good for home guard and not effective against the army
@@JCRichardson117 When were you last in Donnington..? There are no Lee Enfields left in there except perhaps a few L42s and No 8s. Apart from anything else, what are you going to shoot out of them.. there are no stocks of .303 which has not been made at RG since the 60s! The last batch of .303 was bought in from Greece HXP sometime in the 80s for the cadet force. It has all long gone. Oh, and they use a mechanical cutter for deacting not a plasma cutter..
Why yes Ian, that is my exact thought process
My friend's father was issued one of these during The Troubles.