UPDATE: most of these problems were fixed with the release of Season 4 on April 11, 2023. there is more info in the description. hello this took a long time because this ult is very broken. I've been experimenting with this and other bugs on twitch if you want to hang out: www.twitch.tv/marblr :)
I mean. It still has the potential to 1 shot you. Even if its a janky mess most people don't risk it. Just gives players stuck in the open a last stitch effort to try and force that jank to cause a miss
@@everkade if it was you accidentally pressing s instead of d it would say last sitch effort, so I assumed you at some point misheard the phrase and started saying it wrong. Like people who say "up AND arms" instead of IN
I think the fact he has a L.O.S check that's attached to the feet just for the bullet to ultimately be fired towards the chest at the end of the day, is the most bizarre thing about this ult for me. I would've thought the bullet would be programmed to fire along the ray-cast that currently has L.O.S 🤨🤨🤨🤨
Majority of the issues if not all of them could have probably been resolved if the ult didn't seemingly trigger another function that makes the character fire a "deadeye bullet" at a chest hard point, but instead applied the damage directly to the enemy if any of the LoS checks have passed, and then triggered an animation on the clientside. Under very rare circumstances there would be some latency between the ult damage initializing and server confirming that the damage has been applied, but those issues would have been relatively rare and mildly annoying for some targets as Deadeye would sometimes kill them behind cover (something that can happen with any character already anyhow), but not misleading for the actual Deadeye user. I can understand why it checks 3 different LoS in order to maximize all the possibilities of Deadeye actually tracking targets a user can see, cause otherwise there would be some cases when a user would initialize Deadeye thinking they can hit enemies since they clearly see half the model, only for the targeting to infuriatingly fail, that would be bad experience. But why the fuck does it actually treat Deadeye bullet as any other hitscan which can fail depending on variety of circumstances shown in this video outside of users control is beyond me.
You don't even have to bug it either, someone correct me if I'm wrong and they changed it but if I recall the 50% damage reduction you get on Cassidy's roll can actually alter whether or not he dies from an enemy Deadeye depending on how much damage has ramped up
@@jrodd13 Youre right. You can tank a pulse bomb when timed correctly. It is kinda cool not gonna lie. Its not easy to use either, you gotta time it pretty good. I liked the change.
This feels like it would take an entire rewrite of Deadeye for it to properly work as advertised because it's fundamentally broken on so many levels. Thanks for putting the spotlight on that and hopefully it'll get fixed!
@@your_favorite_jackalope_ba1325 This is the same thing, that's called hitscan. Mccrees revolver is entirely hitscan and so is deadeye. They don't fire a real traveling bullet even though the graphics show as if they did.
@@fuzzyblueberry2917 Yeah but the hitscan checks for object in between other hard points. To fix this is to simply only check the line of sight between the head hardpoint (the one the skull marker is one) to check if kill. That way it will always hit if there’s a marker, and will always miss if there isnt
It's always great when you can see what the player is thinking lol The visible double-takes and turning to stare dead at someone else are consistently hilarious
I heard smth once about how Kiriko's hand can like make so you can't headshot her in certain positions??? Idk it's really vague but I remember ppl talking about it at one point.
I once shot a Kiriko with deadeye who had the red skull… and she survived with ~20 hp. Didn’t use any abilities, just straight up didn’t take enough damage
It's interesting because I've never had Deadeye miss in OW1, but have had 2 misses due to pose changes in OW2 already. One of them being Ana....jumping...
Overwatch 2 Changed the monetization scheme to make it so it is no longer feasible to get anything for free Added 2 whole heroes Kept the same baseline Somehow broke everything How did you manage this in what's supposed to be a sequel Blizzard is beyond me
Honestly the fact Cassidy can roll dodge a deadeye is badass enough that it both isn't something I'd complain about and makes sense as a character but for everything else it's ridiculous
this happened to me last week as ana, enemy cass deadeye managed to just completely miss me when I was in full LOS the entire time from his triggering ult to pulling trigger. I guess latency possibly? but I had no movement abilities to use so I'm still surprised it missed. i did try to sleep him but he was suzu'd immediately before. it was a very bizarre moment. incredibly glad you did a video on this one, it's been driving me crazy lol
@@raspberry3189 This was my thought too. Ana not only hunches down quite far, she also kinda leans her upper body to the side, so the position of hardpoint #1 probably moves quite a bit. Ana also has a really low crouch and a surprisingly high jump, so I could see either of those animations possibly causing the miss too.
@@raspberry3189 or sleep dart animation, since they mentioned using that right before the ult shot, especially since "using an ability" is the case for mercy and sojourn
this dude is the literal definition of an angel in stuff like this. as a developer, sometimes we don't even know how we wrote it and spend months on design bugs like this. He deserves to be paid by blizzard
Wow, I can see why they designed the ult this way, but seeing how it doesn't work well irks me. Also, I always thought it tracked the head since that is where the marker is. Strange that they don't use the hardpoint at the head as the aim target since it's much smaller (less room for false positives) and makes thematically sense.
My guess is probably so critical damage doesn't need to be accounted for, since it charges up based on hp total, right? So if it was the head, they'd have to apply the critical multiplier to whatever math they use. Just my guess
@@Ross516 They could easily just make the deadeye use bullets that don't crit instead of having to bother with all this hardpoint nonesense that requires more checks running through the game/server. For example, Death Blossom doesn't crit despite using the "same shotguns."
@@Ross516 nah, they can just turn crits off for the ult. Lots of stuff doesn't do crit damage, and they can even make orisa immune to crits while fortified
i suppose that could cause issues where you see the whole character BUT the head and the ult is not charging up which would be frustrating, but 1. how often does that happen 2. players would accept that its about the head
The deadeye shot must be shooting the hard point on the client side and missing when it doesn't match what's in the server. That's why the latency is so important
To add to your list. People standing up from earthshatter, people getting slept and also waking up from sleep can also cause this. Lost a comp game because deadeye missed a sleeping nanoblading genji who woke up
The old fire mechanic can give you hints becuase im pretty sure it was based off of whoever got the most of those points within a certain timeframe although you can no longer see the points i think its tge same effect so if its not a solo kill it will only give a certain amount depending on the percent of damage you did +elim credit ult cancelation and rez cancel count as 50 along with elim if im right and a solo kill will count as 100 contesting objective slowly gives 10 which is why you can be on fire just from contesting (sorry for very late reply)
ive been complaing about deadeyes sea of bugs for years and never felt like anyone ever heard or cared. THANK YOU MARBLR for being a voice for the voiceless. WE CAN'T LET THIS STAND.
Ikr. It's always super interesting to learn these things as an average player with no dev experience whatsoever. I always thought that deadeye would be really simple from a backend perspective but I guess it's never quite that simple in game dev.
@@arcadema It feels like they made it needlessly complex. Just use one hard point for everything, the head. The ult icon even indicates Cassidy will shoot their head, so just make the ult about shooting heads. This will solve all the issues. The only slight nerf here is that the ult won't ramp on someone if you only see their feet or body, but you can fix that by making it a bit more complex. Use three hardpoints like before, yellow means it will miss, red means it will hit, circle touching skull means it will kill. This way, it will still charge if you see their feet, even if you can't see their head, but you will still one shot the moment you do.
It's interesting how sometimes seemingly simple things can be really intricate to programme. "I can see a player" is surprisingly complicated when you think of how to check it, when to update those checks etc. Saying that, the bit about the bullet and lock-on indicator not using the same haedpoints as the LOS check just seems bad.
9:13 This is the fundamental problem with Phara, one that affects literally any character that shoots at her. The hitbox becomes disconnected from the model from movement changes. Happens to all characters, but flying ones that move in every axis benefit from it especially. In Deadeye's case, the bullet is tracking to the hitbox, but the disconnect is so small that with a decent ping, the server returns "Uh no, the hitbox is over here, not over there anymore" by the time the bullet hits, leading to a no-reg.
I have an automatic "Do Not Disturb" mode toggle that enables on 8:00 AM. I was watching the video and exactly at 1:13 , when doomfist said "an dey sey, an dey sey..." it got muted because DND mode disabled sound. That's some perfect timing right there
Oh man, I am so excited that you validated that one of the miss conditions has to do with sudden pose changes and is affected by latency! That was my guess after studying a few examples in the replay viewer. I’m surprised to see that you found that Deadeye doesn’t seem to follow favor the shooter as expected, though. In the examples that I studied, the bullet trails and blood spatters were not aligned with the target’s centerline, in some cases not being on the hitbox at all, yet the target still took damage. I thought that that must have reflected where the target was on the shooter’s client at the time that the bullet was fired. (Unfortunately, those replays are no longer valid, but I do have some screenshots saved if that would be useful to share.) Based on that interpretation, my guess as to why the shot missed during a rapid pose change was that maybe the target’s _position_ was being rewound to where Cassidy saw them, but that the _pose_ was not being rewound properly/consistently. So, in the Mercy-ending-GA example, Cassidy shoots while Mercy is still in the horizontal pose on his client, but on the server she has finished her GA and is upright again. My guess is that the hit registration is evaluated based on the position and hitbox pose that Cassidy sees, like normal, but the selection of where Deadeye shoots is based on the hero’s pose on the server. I think that could explain the behavior that you saw where the window for missing is latency-dependent, and the bot on the server never misses. But, I don’t know how to reconcile this hypothesis with your 4th miss scenario. _Edit:_ In your tests on the latency-related miss window, did you test against other heroes’ pose changes or just Mercy? Were you able to test at latencies in between the 60ish and 250ish you showed? The fact that the 60ms latency resulted in a 60ms window to miss seems like it would support my hypothesis that the hardpoint is being evaluated based on how Mercy is posed on the server’s timestamp. If I was right, I would expect the miss window to scale 1:1 with the latency up to whatever the duration of the pose-change animation is. Maybe that’s the 160ms you found with 250ms ping? That could be tested with finer-grained ping tests (maybe using the minimum latency feature?) or possibly more heroes, since presumably the pose-change animation times would differ.
Kudos to you for answering so many people's questions about this stupid ultimate. Your videos are amazingly well produced and researched. Keep up the great work man.
The latency one makes sense. The latency between recieving server info and client side location have enough discrepency for it to "not lead the shot" correctly
*Marblr's videos are entertainingly and enjoyably educational!* All this time I've experinced these circumstances as Cassidy and thought it was just a ping/latency situation.
if I know the devs well enough they'll keep this in as a feature and call it a "counter" for cassidy's ult as if there isn't enough thing that counters his ult...
even if they wanted him to be able to shoot toes you could just change it so he doesn't actually need to hit the shot he just needs to charge the skull and keep LOS
Id say, just skip the bullet concerning the damage. Do the LOS including shields/other effects, have the targets take damage and play the animation+ bullet seperately.
Honestly, i think it's sort of an issue with how the los check is handled, because i believe similar missing issues happen with other burst damage ults as well (i could say that it's not uncommon to "miss" with riptire's explosion)
finally somebody bringing attention to this, it has been driving me crazy how many times i miss shots that should have hit, and i haven't even been playing cassidy for that long
I feel like if I heard "It's high noon" so many times while testing and found this many misses, I wouldn't even bother hiding from this ult next time I hear it in game lol
This video reminds me a lot of Shounic both dive deep into the mechanics of the game and both do a super amazing job at explaining it love the content.
What I've learned today is that: if I'm caught in the open by Cassidy as Mercy I should at least attempt to fly away as there's a chance I'll dodge his shot with Guardian Angel
Have you checked if these bugs also occur without the ult being active? My gameplay seems to indicate that these missed shots happen all the time. not just with dead eye
Seen *something* similar happening with Ashe lately, except I believe the issue may be with hit reg as the issue occurs not only with regular shots, but at times completely stationary targets (including the ones in the practice range)
If you have a low end PC you will miss shots even though you on your display can see that your crosshair are on a character. The reason for this is that with lower FPS, it will take longer time for the movement of a character update meaning that there's a bigger window in milliseconds of that the enemy is lagging behind on your screen. If the enemy character moves straight in one direction, imagine them in reality being a little bit further in that direction. The time between 2 frames when you have low fps will also mean that on your display the enemy maybe moves to the left when in reality they move to the right. Playing on lower FPS you want to play hitscans like projectile characters were you pre aim in the direction that you would guess they will position in the next frame. As someone who have played on 30 fps, 150 fps and 240 fps avg setups there's a massive difference in delay between 30 and 150 fps. It's so massive that my aim went from 30% to 80% in bronze just by playing on higher fps and I won every single game until I got to gold as Soldier back in 2019. So in other words, the higher fps you have, the smaller the window of were the enemy can position the next frame resulting in you having higher accuracy since you will know exactly were they will be.
@@MrHandsomeStudios I have a 144 refresh rate monitor, can confirm you just have more opportunities to know exactly where they might be. Diminishing returns exist, I wouldn't dare go above 144. Input lag + internet inconsistencies/speed are likely bigger issues in Overwatch.
I thought for the longest time Sojorn has an because of this bug. I was baffled at how stupid that is in such an already powerful character, I'm glad I was just stupid
I don't know if you've covered it already but can you explain the differences in first person animation vs third person? Like for example in Cassidys ult where he has his left hand placed horizontally from the player POV but from outside that isn't visible, or how moira looks like she's naruto running from a third person view but from the players perspective her hands never move to her sides?
I can answer this. Your first person (the detailed hands and weapon) and third person (the full body) models are separate, but move around in the game world together. Game engine cameras can decide what they show at any given time. So your camera shows your first person model and hides your third person model, while showing you everyone else's third person model. When you do things like get charged or emote it hides your first person model and shows you your third person model so you can watch yourself die or dance or whatever.
@@reggieisnotadog4841 oh thats sick thanks for the quick reply. Do you know the name of this phenomena or technique so I can look into it myself sometime? Been wanting to use it for some game dev for a while now and it seems like it'd be super handy. And one more thing does that mean that the models are basically overlayed on top of one another then? Because if so how does hitbox detection work between the 2?
@@mohammedbaig9569 The viewmodels do not have any hitboxes or collision with the world, they are rendered only in your client's camera in first person and layered over everything so they don't clip into stuff. The models themselves are technically overlayed but the viewport is only ever rendering one or the other at a given time. This technique is probably just called viewmodels and is the way FPS games have been doing this since Wolfenstien.
@@mohammedbaig9569 useually viewmodels are done with 2 different camera's overlayed ontop of eachother this is because the viewmodels FOV should never change as it'd make the gun look weird and since you want the player to be able to change FOV its a seperate camera the viewmodel and all so why would you give the viewmodel a hitbox? it doesnt need one they are all so rendered first before anything else to effectively make sure they can never be behind objects to stop them clipping into walls
@@mohammedbaig9569 People have answered this already with the point that it's two cameras and is switching between them. For a game engine specific tutorial on how to do FPS arms look up camera stacking in Unity, and for how to show certain models (i.e. only first person models and third person models for certain cameras) look up 'camera culling mask unity'. Don't worry that it's for Unity if you're using another engine. Once you understand those two concepts you will be able to apply them to your own engine by either fiddling about or googling the same concepts, unity just has some good tutorials on how they work in general. You can also look up 'Animation Bootcamp: The First Person Animation of Overwatch' for a great video on how they do it in OW specifically. Hope that helps and good luck with game dev!
I made posts to Blizzard on the OW forums about all the netcode of deadeye back in 2018 or so and the amount of salty players claiming I was full of shit made me give up discussing the game in detail. Thank you for giving me some reinforcement that I'm not crazy.
![SAFEPLANET - ดาวเคราะห์ [ THE PLANET ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4X1XL3I_k3c/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE: most of these problems were fixed with the release of Season 4 on April 11, 2023. there is more info in the description.
hello this took a long time because this ult is very broken. I've been experimenting with this and other bugs on twitch if you want to hang out: www.twitch.tv/marblr :)
hey,
at least you didn't explain it for 50 minutes
Next up how tf does reins pin hitbox work?
@@artemisspawnofzeus7732it doesn't
Hey Marblr can you make a video explaining how melee mechanics work in this game?
do you ever intend on having a stream archive channel? i'd love to watch some of your streams even if i can't catch them all live
The fear this ultimate causes on people is definitely not equivalent to how dangerous it actually is huh
I mean. It still has the potential to 1 shot you. Even if its a janky mess most people don't risk it. Just gives players stuck in the open a last stitch effort to try and force that jank to cause a miss
To be honest this ult only works for baiting cooldowns and that's it 💀
@@everkade last *ditch effort
@@everkade if it was you accidentally pressing s instead of d it would say last sitch effort, so I assumed you at some point misheard the phrase and started saying it wrong. Like people who say "up AND arms" instead of IN
@@everkade There's no point to anything, that's why I do whatever I want without a single fuck to give.
"I'm not as good as I used to be... but I'm still the quickest gun in the New West" makes more sense all of a sudden
It's not a bug , it's a feature XD
McCree training arc when
@@starshotstream Mcree gets strong and everyone stops being rude to him
This really puts the "Dead" in "Deadeye"
Engineer Gaming
@@Trisaaru engineer gaming
@@SubmittedAndReadable engineer gaming
dead in ringer
It takes the dead out of deadeye
I think the fact he has a L.O.S check that's attached to the feet just for the bullet to ultimately be fired towards the chest at the end of the day, is the most bizarre thing about this ult for me. I would've thought the bullet would be programmed to fire along the ray-cast that currently has L.O.S 🤨🤨🤨🤨
That good sir, would be logical thinking, this is Blizzard however 💀
Screw simply checking for a head hitbox, here at Blizzard we got 3 LOS hardpoints for no reason
Majority of the issues if not all of them could have probably been resolved if the ult didn't seemingly trigger another function that makes the character fire a "deadeye bullet" at a chest hard point, but instead applied the damage directly to the enemy if any of the LoS checks have passed, and then triggered an animation on the clientside. Under very rare circumstances there would be some latency between the ult damage initializing and server confirming that the damage has been applied, but those issues would have been relatively rare and mildly annoying for some targets as Deadeye would sometimes kill them behind cover (something that can happen with any character already anyhow), but not misleading for the actual Deadeye user.
I can understand why it checks 3 different LoS in order to maximize all the possibilities of Deadeye actually tracking targets a user can see, cause otherwise there would be some cases when a user would initialize Deadeye thinking they can hit enemies since they clearly see half the model, only for the targeting to infuriatingly fail, that would be bad experience. But why the fuck does it actually treat Deadeye bullet as any other hitscan which can fail depending on variety of circumstances shown in this video outside of users control is beyond me.
@@CrayonEater255 I bet at some point this made sense... wonder what it was used for, though :D
@@g1gabyt3 Blizzards logic
You'd think such a straightforward ultimate wouldn't cause so many issues but here we are
its never as easy as it seems
@@danisob3633 I agree but this is kind of ridiculous
I wonder if the same thing happens with soldier ultimate since it also is a lock on, but no one notices because he's continuously firing.
@@SoloHenlikely, but the fact 76 has rapid fire and spread may make the issue much less impactful, or at least i think thatd be the case
Why the hell is the code even so convoluted. Just check the head hitbox, and fire at the head hitbox.
I love watching the tumbleweeds spawn in with every Deadeye activation, it’s like Cass is trying to turn the map into a literal desert.
Same with the sound effects 🤣
Given the player decline, that's not too bad of a comparison, actually.
Honestly, Cassidy dodging another Cassidy's Deadeye shot with Combat Roll feels kind of awesome
Pretty much the only one that is justified
You don't even have to bug it either, someone correct me if I'm wrong and they changed it but if I recall the 50% damage reduction you get on Cassidy's roll can actually alter whether or not he dies from an enemy Deadeye depending on how much damage has ramped up
Happened to me yesterday actually. Gave him props and died an honorable death
@@jrodd13 Youre right. You can tank a pulse bomb when timed correctly. It is kinda cool not gonna lie.
Its not easy to use either, you gotta time it pretty good. I liked the change.
@@jrodd13 i keep forgetting he has DR while rolling
This feels like it would take an entire rewrite of Deadeye for it to properly work as advertised because it's fundamentally broken on so many levels. Thanks for putting the spotlight on that and hopefully it'll get fixed!
It won't
@@AE-or7xd won't get rewritten? hopefully they fix some of this tho
U know how in valorant theres no like actual byllet and it just automaticay damages the enemy? Why not just that,
An insta kill for everyone on sight
@@your_favorite_jackalope_ba1325 This is the same thing, that's called hitscan. Mccrees revolver is entirely hitscan and so is deadeye. They don't fire a real traveling bullet even though the graphics show as if they did.
@@fuzzyblueberry2917 Yeah but the hitscan checks for object in between other hard points. To fix this is to simply only check the line of sight between the head hardpoint (the one the skull marker is one) to check if kill. That way it will always hit if there’s a marker, and will always miss if there isnt
gotta love how deadeye is basically just a reload with the occasional maybe killing someone now
I find the ult is genuinely good just by treating it as an extra quick reload
It's good for killing flying heroes even if you get one kill with it that's a win
@@ryukandapples3506 and that's the saddest part. It's more useful to reload then actually use your ult
@@ryukandapples3506 that still makes it a joke
I use it to kill mercy every time lol
The double take the case does at 9:28 is hilarious.
It's always great when you can see what the player is thinking lol
The visible double-takes and turning to stare dead at someone else are consistently hilarious
I’ve experienced this manytimes, where deadeye misses someone right out in the open or hits an object
ping diff
only 5?
me too! i thought i was just bad but it makes so much sense now 😭
@@kittyratrawr made me uninstall
I once missed a deadeye on a walking Kiriko, no sudden animation changes, just walking straight. Nice ult👍
latency moment
I heard smth once about how Kiriko's hand can like make so you can't headshot her in certain positions??? Idk it's really vague but I remember ppl talking about it at one point.
@@villagerc7130 that's only while sleeping, her sleep animation has her hand covering her head
@@villagerc7130 That's only when she's sleeping and you hit her from her left
I once shot a Kiriko with deadeye who had the red skull… and she survived with ~20 hp. Didn’t use any abilities, just straight up didn’t take enough damage
It's interesting because I've never had Deadeye miss in OW1, but have had 2 misses due to pose changes in OW2 already. One of them being Ana....jumping...
as ana i survived a few deadeyes when caught in the open, trying to flee (and jumping)
Same but for me it was a baby dva 2ft from me jumped to the left out in the open and my deadeye missed
"What do you mean it's the very same game? It is not! We've introduced MANY new bugs!"
@@isawadelapradera6490 and fucked up so much with the greed we make people miss lootboxes
Overwatch 2
Changed the monetization scheme to make it so it is no longer feasible to get anything for free
Added 2 whole heroes
Kept the same baseline
Somehow broke everything
How did you manage this in what's supposed to be a sequel Blizzard is beyond me
Honestly the fact Cassidy can roll dodge a deadeye is badass enough that it both isn't something I'd complain about and makes sense as a character but for everything else it's ridiculous
I knew I wasn't THAT bad with high noon 😂😂😂
Don't you mean "past your bed time?
Although it would be a nightmare to test, I wonder if certain emotes would have the same "moving the hardpoint" effect, like Junkrats lounging emote.
Or if it counts as a sudden pose change. Emoting right as you know he's about to fire could potentially 'dodge' the shot if that's the case.
this happened to me last week as ana, enemy cass deadeye managed to just completely miss me when I was in full LOS the entire time from his triggering ult to pulling trigger. I guess latency possibly? but I had no movement abilities to use so I'm still surprised it missed. i did try to sleep him but he was suzu'd immediately before. it was a very bizarre moment. incredibly glad you did a video on this one, it's been driving me crazy lol
I wonder if ana's scope in animation could have adjusted her just enough for it to miss, she does have a pretty bad hunch
Knowing the game, it was probably a rogue leaf flying past and blocking the bullet😂
@@raspberry3189 This was my thought too. Ana not only hunches down quite far, she also kinda leans her upper body to the side, so the position of hardpoint #1 probably moves quite a bit. Ana also has a really low crouch and a surprisingly high jump, so I could see either of those animations possibly causing the miss too.
I’ve had this exact same thing happen as well!
@@raspberry3189 or sleep dart animation, since they mentioned using that right before the ult shot, especially since "using an ability" is the case for mercy and sojourn
genji's double jump also counts as a sudden pose change
I'm curious to how much time it takes for you to make these videos, because its very clear that you put a LOT of effort into them
He said 2 weeks so, a decent amount of time
this dude is the literal definition of an angel in stuff like this. as a developer, sometimes we don't even know how we wrote it and spend months on design bugs like this. He deserves to be paid by blizzard
This is such an absurdly well-made video! Everything from the writing, explanations, and editing is just outstanding. Subscribed!
Wow, I can see why they designed the ult this way, but seeing how it doesn't work well irks me. Also, I always thought it tracked the head since that is where the marker is. Strange that they don't use the hardpoint at the head as the aim target since it's much smaller (less room for false positives) and makes thematically sense.
My guess is probably so critical damage doesn't need to be accounted for, since it charges up based on hp total, right? So if it was the head, they'd have to apply the critical multiplier to whatever math they use. Just my guess
@@Ross516 they could make it so it cant do headshot damage
@@Ross516 They could easily just make the deadeye use bullets that don't crit instead of having to bother with all this hardpoint nonesense that requires more checks running through the game/server. For example, Death Blossom doesn't crit despite using the "same shotguns."
@@Ross516 nah, they can just turn crits off for the ult. Lots of stuff doesn't do crit damage, and they can even make orisa immune to crits while fortified
i suppose that could cause issues where you see the whole character BUT the head and the ult is not charging up which would be frustrating, but 1. how often does that happen 2. players would accept that its about the head
The deadeye shot must be shooting the hard point on the client side and missing when it doesn't match what's in the server. That's why the latency is so important
To add to your list. People standing up from earthshatter, people getting slept and also waking up from sleep can also cause this. Lost a comp game because deadeye missed a sleeping nanoblading genji who woke up
I think an interesting video topic would be how POTG's are chosen (eg canceling rez adds "points" and so does canceling ults/getting ult kills)
The old fire mechanic can give you hints becuase im pretty sure it was based off of whoever got the most of those points within a certain timeframe although you can no longer see the points i think its tge same effect so if its not a solo kill it will only give a certain amount depending on the percent of damage you did +elim credit ult cancelation and rez cancel count as 50 along with elim if im right and a solo kill will count as 100 contesting objective slowly gives 10 which is why you can be on fire just from contesting (sorry for very late reply)
Pretty sure it’s the most amount of fire someone gains in a small amount of time.
never thought i’d hear someone advocate high noon canceling for the reload alone and i’d walk away actually convinced to do it
Wanted actually does that lol
That Zenyatta t-pose is gonna haunt me in my dreams 4:38
ive been complaing about deadeyes sea of bugs for years and never felt like anyone ever heard or cared. THANK YOU MARBLR for being a voice for the voiceless. WE CAN'T LET THIS STAND.
this guy is the shounic of overwatch. same editing style, video format, its awesome
This is so bizarre, I never thought it’d be such a technical ultimate
Ikr. It's always super interesting to learn these things as an average player with no dev experience whatsoever. I always thought that deadeye would be really simple from a backend perspective but I guess it's never quite that simple in game dev.
@@arcadema It feels like they made it needlessly complex.
Just use one hard point for everything, the head. The ult icon even indicates Cassidy will shoot their head, so just make the ult about shooting heads. This will solve all the issues.
The only slight nerf here is that the ult won't ramp on someone if you only see their feet or body, but you can fix that by making it a bit more complex. Use three hardpoints like before, yellow means it will miss, red means it will hit, circle touching skull means it will kill.
This way, it will still charge if you see their feet, even if you can't see their head, but you will still one shot the moment you do.
They could use whatever they use for torbjorn`s turret tbh.
It's interesting how sometimes seemingly simple things can be really intricate to programme. "I can see a player" is surprisingly complicated when you think of how to check it, when to update those checks etc.
Saying that, the bit about the bullet and lock-on indicator not using the same haedpoints as the LOS check just seems bad.
9:13 This is the fundamental problem with Phara, one that affects literally any character that shoots at her. The hitbox becomes disconnected from the model from movement changes. Happens to all characters, but flying ones that move in every axis benefit from it especially. In Deadeye's case, the bullet is tracking to the hitbox, but the disconnect is so small that with a decent ping, the server returns "Uh no, the hitbox is over here, not over there anymore" by the time the bullet hits, leading to a no-reg.
I have an automatic "Do Not Disturb" mode toggle that enables on 8:00 AM. I was watching the video and exactly at 1:13 , when doomfist said "an dey sey, an dey sey..." it got muted because DND mode disabled sound. That's some perfect timing right there
Oh man, I am so excited that you validated that one of the miss conditions has to do with sudden pose changes and is affected by latency! That was my guess after studying a few examples in the replay viewer.
I’m surprised to see that you found that Deadeye doesn’t seem to follow favor the shooter as expected, though. In the examples that I studied, the bullet trails and blood spatters were not aligned with the target’s centerline, in some cases not being on the hitbox at all, yet the target still took damage. I thought that that must have reflected where the target was on the shooter’s client at the time that the bullet was fired. (Unfortunately, those replays are no longer valid, but I do have some screenshots saved if that would be useful to share.)
Based on that interpretation, my guess as to why the shot missed during a rapid pose change was that maybe the target’s _position_ was being rewound to where Cassidy saw them, but that the _pose_ was not being rewound properly/consistently. So, in the Mercy-ending-GA example, Cassidy shoots while Mercy is still in the horizontal pose on his client, but on the server she has finished her GA and is upright again. My guess is that the hit registration is evaluated based on the position and hitbox pose that Cassidy sees, like normal, but the selection of where Deadeye shoots is based on the hero’s pose on the server. I think that could explain the behavior that you saw where the window for missing is latency-dependent, and the bot on the server never misses. But, I don’t know how to reconcile this hypothesis with your 4th miss scenario.
_Edit:_ In your tests on the latency-related miss window, did you test against other heroes’ pose changes or just Mercy? Were you able to test at latencies in between the 60ish and 250ish you showed? The fact that the 60ms latency resulted in a 60ms window to miss seems like it would support my hypothesis that the hardpoint is being evaluated based on how Mercy is posed on the server’s timestamp. If I was right, I would expect the miss window to scale 1:1 with the latency up to whatever the duration of the pose-change animation is. Maybe that’s the 160ms you found with 250ms ping? That could be tested with finer-grained ping tests (maybe using the minimum latency feature?) or possibly more heroes, since presumably the pose-change animation times would differ.
The kind of content I love. Fascinating how you investigated this.
Kudos to you for answering so many people's questions about this stupid ultimate. Your videos are amazingly well produced and researched. Keep up the great work man.
You have no idea how excited I get whenever I see one of your videos pop up
I wonder if this bug affects S76's tac visor too, but nobody notices because it's a channeled ult? May want to test that.
Its something he tested on twitch but apparently didnt make it to the video. Visor will never miss unlike highnoon.
You'd expect 2 Aimbot ults to function similarly, but we are talking about Overwatch here.
It's not a channeled ult
@@vivelespatat2670 deadeye mechanical is different from visir
Tac visor is hitscan though, no? Deadeye is projectile-based, which is part of the reason why it misses when the enemy is in full LOS.
great video as always, glad someone was around to fill this niche on TH-cam, very useful stuff!
The quality of the work you do is always incredible, but this one takes the cake. Fascinating to see some of the weirdness that happens in this game.
1:13. Thank you for using this example of character dialogue.
It must be fun to gut the games mechanics like this but man i just cant imagine all the work and time that goes into this channel
Your content is so interesting and well made,
you made me watch a 12 min video about a game i don't play
I love how all 3 examples are flats
We love flats
Wow. And I thought I was going crazy with how many times deadeye has missed for me…
As a banana man main this truly pains my soul. I normally use the ult to take out Valking Mercies too :(
I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into research for these videos.
The only thing I miss with it is every potential kill because everyone knows how to counter it nowadays. 😔
yeah it is pretty much the worst ult in the game even without bugs
@@kie2 brigitte ult
better than lucio beat imo
@Knyt Are you playing the same game?
@@nontori..4161 nah rally is at least somewhat useful
I don't play this game but watching how you articulate the data and how that data comes, is engaging.
The latency one makes sense. The latency between recieving server info and client side location have enough discrepency for it to "not lead the shot" correctly
mad science you did in this video, very well made. good job!
cass ult is just a glorified reload
So good dude, imagine if they don't fix this before the next OWL season, oof. Also fun having you play with Seagull lately, good times!
it's actually kinda hype that cree can dodge deadeye by rolling. I'd love to see someone try it in game intentionally.
Never played over watch and still love watching these kind of videos
As a Mercy main unfortunately I cant say I have ever been NOT shot by deadeye.
So this was actually quite interesting.......
now we know the secret is to GA exactly when Cassidy is locked on.
@@VanSanProductions we can't know when he'll shoot so it's a hail Mary given ga cooldown time
at least in the examples I've shown, you need to jump out of GA to have a chance at dodging deadeye.
I've had my deadeye miss mercy twice in just the past week and I don't play that much. Just bad luck I guess
Your Channel is exactly the kind of overwatch content that i have been looking for
0:38 snack has been grabbed
Seeing that [Patched] on the title feels so good, and it's thanks to you and your rigorious tests. OW community thanks you!
0:11 to be fair that one just hit a palm tree
Dude, your videos are the greatest. Thanks for the content
*Marblr's videos are entertainingly and enjoyably educational!*
All this time I've experinced these circumstances as Cassidy and thought it was just a ping/latency situation.
SHEESH this channel is ESSENTIAL
1:54 hol’ up, what he lookin at/..
Good work! You are still creating some of the best Overwatch videos I've seen and I am so happy to have found you
Keep up the great work bro fr
if I know the devs well enough they'll keep this in as a feature and call it a "counter" for cassidy's ult as if there isn't enough thing that counters his ult...
Man I love your videos, so incredibly well made and entertaining. Really shows the backend of one of my favorite games!
Please never stop making these. Only overwatch content I’m interested in
Thank you for making these videos!
RIP Birdring , he should have watched your video 😂
YOOOO THE BLINX 2 STORE THEME RIGHT AT THE END! Very good video too!
Cassidy mains taking notes on what to do and no to do while watching this
Great video - I saw Flats reacting to it and had to come watch the original myself!
My question would be: Why doesn't Mccree just make 1 line of sight check and uses that for the bullet as well?
Because that would be too much effort. Ow is held together by shoestrings and duct tape.
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong Sounds about right. This aint a gamebreaking bug nor is any longtime multyplayer game handled by the same devs.
even if they wanted him to be able to shoot toes you could just change it so he doesn't actually need to hit the shot he just needs to charge the skull and keep LOS
Id say, just skip the bullet concerning the damage. Do the LOS including shields/other effects, have the targets take damage and play the animation+ bullet seperately.
because someone coded this mess in 2016 and no one has complained enough to make them give enough of a damn to fix it
Amazing video marblr as usual! Keep up the good work!
Honestly, i think it's sort of an issue with how the los check is handled, because i believe similar missing issues happen with other burst damage ults as well (i could say that it's not uncommon to "miss" with riptire's explosion)
finally somebody bringing attention to this, it has been driving me crazy how many times i miss shots that should have hit, and i haven't even been playing cassidy for that long
I feel like if I heard "It's high noon" so many times while testing and found this many misses, I wouldn't even bother hiding from this ult next time I hear it in game lol
i have heard too much "RAAH". i can't unhear this now. but seriously, great video and keep up the good work ❤️
1:48 damn Cassidy, Mercy's eyes are up there, you know!
This is very surprising and interesting for such a simple ultimate. Very eye-opening
9:08 BARRIER UNSUCCESSFUL 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
You are UNFATHOMABLY underrated, Mr Marblr!!!
1:42 where r you looking macree?🤨🤨
This video reminds me a lot of Shounic both dive deep into the mechanics of the game and both do a super amazing job at explaining it love the content.
"Don't use -disguises- deadeye when -the enemy team doesn't have an a pyro or demo- you have high ping. Or ever. Just don't use -Spy- Cassidy."
Im so glad you document these bugs so frequently, something tells me Blizzard may soon be working on a fix for this!
1:52 my mans eyes do be awandering there
Well a man of culture, you used Blinx the time sweeper ost from the hourglass caves, respect
What I've learned today is that: if I'm caught in the open by Cassidy as Mercy I should at least attempt to fly away as there's a chance I'll dodge his shot with Guardian Angel
I came here from Flats, and it was just to drop a like and a view, you definitely deserve it.
Have you checked if these bugs also occur without the ult being active? My gameplay seems to indicate that these missed shots happen all the time. not just with dead eye
I really hope this explains why I can never hit anything with Ashe or Widowmaker even though it's not nearly as bad with any other hero
Skill issue
Seen *something* similar happening with Ashe lately, except I believe the issue may be with hit reg as the issue occurs not only with regular shots, but at times completely stationary targets (including the ones in the practice range)
If you have a low end PC you will miss shots even though you on your display can see that your crosshair are on a character. The reason for this is that with lower FPS, it will take longer time for the movement of a character update meaning that there's a bigger window in milliseconds of that the enemy is lagging behind on your screen. If the enemy character moves straight in one direction, imagine them in reality being a little bit further in that direction. The time between 2 frames when you have low fps will also mean that on your display the enemy maybe moves to the left when in reality they move to the right.
Playing on lower FPS you want to play hitscans like projectile characters were you pre aim in the direction that you would guess they will position in the next frame. As someone who have played on 30 fps, 150 fps and 240 fps avg setups there's a massive difference in delay between 30 and 150 fps. It's so massive that my aim went from 30% to 80% in bronze just by playing on higher fps and I won every single game until I got to gold as Soldier back in 2019.
So in other words, the higher fps you have, the smaller the window of were the enemy can position the next frame resulting in you having higher accuracy since you will know exactly were they will be.
@@MrHandsomeStudios I have a 144 refresh rate monitor, can confirm you just have more opportunities to know exactly where they might be. Diminishing returns exist, I wouldn't dare go above 144. Input lag + internet inconsistencies/speed are likely bigger issues in Overwatch.
I don’t play Overwatch because it’s absolutely miserable but these videos are so entertaining
the april 11 patch notes say this has been fixed... is it true?
I thought for the longest time Sojorn has an because of this bug. I was baffled at how stupid that is in such an already powerful character, I'm glad I was just stupid
I don't know if you've covered it already but can you explain the differences in first person animation vs third person? Like for example in Cassidys ult where he has his left hand placed horizontally from the player POV but from outside that isn't visible, or how moira looks like she's naruto running from a third person view but from the players perspective her hands never move to her sides?
I can answer this. Your first person (the detailed hands and weapon) and third person (the full body) models are separate, but move around in the game world together.
Game engine cameras can decide what they show at any given time. So your camera shows your first person model and hides your third person model, while showing you everyone else's third person model. When you do things like get charged or emote it hides your first person model and shows you your third person model so you can watch yourself die or dance or whatever.
@@reggieisnotadog4841 oh thats sick thanks for the quick reply. Do you know the name of this phenomena or technique so I can look into it myself sometime? Been wanting to use it for some game dev for a while now and it seems like it'd be super handy. And one more thing does that mean that the models are basically overlayed on top of one another then? Because if so how does hitbox detection work between the 2?
@@mohammedbaig9569 The viewmodels do not have any hitboxes or collision with the world, they are rendered only in your client's camera in first person and layered over everything so they don't clip into stuff. The models themselves are technically overlayed but the viewport is only ever rendering one or the other at a given time. This technique is probably just called viewmodels and is the way FPS games have been doing this since Wolfenstien.
@@mohammedbaig9569 useually viewmodels are done with 2 different camera's overlayed ontop of eachother
this is because the viewmodels FOV should never change as it'd make the gun look weird and since you want the player to be able to change FOV its a seperate camera the viewmodel and all so why would you give the viewmodel a hitbox? it doesnt need one they are all so rendered first before anything else to effectively make sure they can never be behind objects to stop them clipping into walls
@@mohammedbaig9569 People have answered this already with the point that it's two cameras and is switching between them. For a game engine specific tutorial on how to do FPS arms look up camera stacking in Unity, and for how to show certain models (i.e. only first person models and third person models for certain cameras) look up 'camera culling mask unity'.
Don't worry that it's for Unity if you're using another engine. Once you understand those two concepts you will be able to apply them to your own engine by either fiddling about or googling the same concepts, unity just has some good tutorials on how they work in general.
You can also look up 'Animation Bootcamp: The First Person Animation of Overwatch' for a great video on how they do it in OW specifically. Hope that helps and good luck with game dev!
I made posts to Blizzard on the OW forums about all the netcode of deadeye back in 2018 or so and the amount of salty players claiming I was full of shit made me give up discussing the game in detail.
Thank you for giving me some reinforcement that I'm not crazy.
11:24 Very uh.. 'Interesting' Choreography there mate
Dude, I love your videos. You're like the Shounic of Overwatch that we all need, uncovering this plate of spaghetti, one string at a time
this is incredible hope this give the overwatch team a good understanding of whats wrong and how it can be fixed.
I don’t think this info is anything new to the people that literally coded the game to work this way 😅
Thank you for this this was so unfortunate but informational