What is the Watcher in the Water?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 ม.ค. 2024
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A creature older than Sauron, more terrifying than an entire army of orcs, one that gave even Gandalf pause, and Sam just went at it with his long knife. No wonder everyone loves him.
In the Silmarillion, we know that Melkor created all kinds of beasts that roamed Middle Earth at night with its original disturbance. The elves hunted a lot of them, but some may remain the the darkest depths. The Watcher in the Water is very likely one of them. Quite literally a disruption in nature itself, rather than a later corruption that would be "allergic" to nature.
Sam was the strongest character. Even Elron knew he couldn't resist the ring. Sam just casually gives it back to Frodo, the only other character that it had no power over was Tom Bombadil and he was some eldritch personification of nature or something.
We don't talk about Tom!
Sam: The bliss of ignorance, all that mattered to him is protecting Frodo. Something, anything that attacks Frodo is something he protects Frodo from. Period. Selfless Devotion.
@@TheGhostGuitars Samwise Gamgee: ride-or-die extraordinaire.
Wow, Durin's Folk really picked the best spot in all of Middle Earth to build their underground city. They had Orcs, a Balrog and nameless unknown horrors dwelling in the rocks around and below them. Things so horrible that Gandalf thinks even talking about them would darken the day. It does make one wonder what the geology of Middle Earth is like, such that the dwarves can dig nearly as deep as they please but there is still space for a Balrog to live, and presumably deeper still live the extra nasty things in underground lakes.
It's kind of unsettling to think about. The Dwarves were the most prolific hole diggers, so they naturally encountered deep dwelling entities first/most often in their cities, but I wonder if the Hobbits of the Shire had suddenly decided to take up deep earth gardening what mysteries and miseries they might have found that had been lurking beneath them while they lived out their years of frivolity and merriment on the surface.
Geologically, continental crust is thicker and deeper under mountains. There's more room to delve/gnaw above the crust-mantle boundary
Agreed! When even a Balrog flees, me thinks the Watcher was not driven but lured out.
That's the price of methril. Being rich came at a price.
The Hobbits wouldn't have had to do any deep digging as just think about how sink holes form naturally - I bet there are a lot of nasty predators and things roaming the aquafer - heck, they could have something traveling along it decide to crawl up a well and ravage the Shire.
And imagine just how dangerous sea travel must have been, or even just living near the coast - was fishing in the Mosquito River down here in Florida and we were in just three feet of water when a ten foot bull shark swam through our area and I've seen gators in the wild in the eight to ten foot range as well - if I can run into monsters like that in RL, then just imagine what I might of ran into in those situations had I lived in Middle Earth.
Iron Hills Dwarves, after rotating out of a constant war against unknown and unspeakable things in the depths of the earth to fight the Easterlings:
"WE GOT OURSELVES A VACATION, LADS!"
I think the watcher could potentially be like shelob: an offspring of an evil spirit like ungoliant. A water creature equivalent of ungoliant breeding the watcher makes sense to me
That would be... Terrifying
That's even more terrifying than the Watcher itself, and the Watcher is pretty damn terrifying.
That's what I always figured.
Yup makes sense, this is the theory I have also come to like best.
I don't think so. It is described as being partly luminescent, whereas Shelob seems to eminate a kind of numbing "unlight." UnGolant and its 'offsping' also confer powerful psychological effects on characters in Tolkien's lore. These creatures of the void are able to paralyze the minds of others and erase all senses and thought when close. There is no mention of these effects with the Watcher. Also, the Watcher seems interested in the Ring, whereas the Ring seems to be of no importance to Shelob.
This video made me realise that a video on the ultimate fate of each of the dwarves from The Hobbit could be really interesting
I always thought the Nameless Things, the Watcher among them, were an unintended effect of the Discord of Melkor, and that Bombadil was another.
That is my thinking as well.
Same
Or just came from the great dark beyond just like Ungoliant.
@@alexiachimciuc3199 Yes I think from the dark beyond. Which seems to have existed before and outside of Eru Ilúvatar and his creations, in a sense. Bombadil also seems to have existed before and outside in the same way, so I think neither are a result of the song of creation. Literally speaking, Tom comes from another creation of Tolkien's, not Middle Earth and not bound by its rules, but those of another universe and another reality that exist alongside Middle Earth. Same with these dark things, I think.
Definitely not Bombadil.
I am just imagining the Watcher grabbing the Ring and peacing out. It would have been horrifying and hilarious.
What would a Lovecraftian tentacle monster do with unlimited power?
Since most cephalapods are indeed solitary creatures who just want to eat and be left alone, probably just that. Maybe enlarge its lake, and lure in better prey, but otherwise just chill like a giant squid.
@@thing_under_the_stairsUntil the Nazgûl fish it up
@@andrascottier595 Hmm, Nazgul vs. Lovecraftian Tentacle beast with the One Ring? They're in for a hell of a fight! Giant squid are pretty vicious when they're either hunting or cornered! Things are about to get metaphysical and slimy...
All hail the new dark lord the flying spaghetti monster
@@98Dreadboy That's a Dark Lord I can get behind. Ramen!
Yes, Tolkein left us with mysteries to ponder, unanswered questions. This is one thing that keeps the series interesting! 😊
Correct.
I like the idea that its a Maia, fallen from grace, much like the Balrog. The fact that it snatched Frodo out of all the Fellowship shows that it is probably sentient and it feels the urge to take the ring. A lessor, strictly evil creature like Shelob would have just wanted a meal and wouldn’t care about the ring. So the fact that it goes straight for the ring-bearer suggests to me it may be more powerful than just an oversized octopus that it first appears to be.
But what of a greater strictly evil creature? Shelob and the other spawn of Ungoliant are nowhere near as complex as their progenitor. I like the idea that the nameless things, The Watcher among them, are primordial beings that existed in the void before Arda was created.
@@kg4wwn At the very least the discord in the music started VERY early on. And in mythologies, there needs to opposition, otherwise there is simply little to tell stories about. Imagine the LOTR if all the obstacles along the way were actually helpful:)
it more likely targetted frodo because it's intelligent and observant enough to notice that he is the most protected group member, so if it snatched him first the whole group would fight for dear life to get him back at any cost-- it's acting strategically, not necessarily with regard for the ring
@@iceink There is no indication that he was 'more protected' than any other hobbit.
there is because the group literally existed to protect him, do you know what the book is about? they aren't just taking a jolly hike in the mountains@@mikearchibald744
I loved how you switched the text background to black as you were reading the words how they were left with no light after the door had been shut by the watcher.
Robert, you are just the best storyteller. I always liked the LotR, the books and the movies, but your deep dives and clear love of the material make me want to delve more deeply, all over again.
into the waters of the lake at the gate to moria, I assume? ;)
jk, I totally agree.
A very nice accurate comment! 🙂
Just don't delve too greedily and too deeply, like the dwarves did! 😅
I was just thinking that, then scrolled down. Even tone, evenly paced and expression in appropriate places. Thank you ♥
Yes...that's how I've always thought of the Watcher, too. A Cthulhu-esque thing. And, like the Lovecraftian mythos, all the more frightening because it has existed before the recorded history. It's fascinating how great horror and fear comes from just being an unknown. So primal.
Things existing before the beginning of time. It reminded me of a joke - in the garden of Eden, God is showing Adam and Eve around the place when they see Queen Elizabeth of England. "Who's that?", asks Adam. "I don't know", says God. "She was here when I got here!".
@@donaldscholand4617I guess now we have to change it to King Charles.
Although I doubt he lasts the next 15 years.
This right here makes alot of sense to me, a Lovecraftian influence which usually comes with a whole lot of mystery.
Been really enjoying these lore videos lately 🙌
Very timely! The company would have encountered the Watcher around Jan 13th.
Thank you for another interesting Tolkien video.
I believe that the watcher was one of the nameless ones, but a lesser one among his peers. And that’s why he came to the surface, since among his kind he couldn’t hold his own. And that’s why he went for the ring when it came within reach, too. Like Boromir, he would’ve seen it as a possible weapon he could use, since he likely didn’t really know what it was or how it worked, only that it was powerful. Sauron never had any dealings with the nameless after all.
Just my thought, though. But what if? How powerful were they if this one was small? If a balrog fled from them? And no matter what happened on the surface, they’re still there, now. Are they even alive, as we know life? Are they godlike? They have existed for ever underneath, where there’s not much to eat but each other. Sustenance is apparently no big deal, or natural lifespan. Are they of evil mind or do they just live to their best ability, like a predatory animal? They clearly don’t seek power over surface life, or they would just grab it.
It does put the arrogance of Smaug in its place. He thought he held dominion under a mountain. Foolish little worm, he was just tolerated.
Seems to me they just mind their own damn business unless a wizard and balrog come through like two bulls in a subterranean china shop🤣
If you are looking for a real-world physics example of "what they eat", there's heat in the core of the earth. That heat can catalyze reactions to produce energy. Plentiful minerals to use as catalysts. This would be more practical for bacteria and fungi, but then add the magic and spirit essense of Tolkein's world. And yes, there could be small imps, larvae, etc eating the smaller bacteria/fungi/lichens and then the slow metabolizing larger creatures eating them at times.
I figured they metabolized minerals somehow and just ate their way through the earth like a worm through an apple.
@cycleboy8028 Yes this right here. Not everything underneath and ancient has to be colossal. There has to be plenty of small-lings roaming down there as well forming a food chain of sorts.
Very nicely done Robert thank you. I think this creature is one of the beings that descended with Melkor at the very beginning of his rebellion.
Agree. I enjoyed this one.
There are all some really cool theories about this guy, the best (in my opinion):
- Its a fallen maia (which would be really cool and really interesting for the lore as it means fallen maia that transform don't just become a balrog, possibly whatever magic they were most proficient with shapes their transformation, for instance if radagast fell he would become some super ent like thing or maybe a big earth creature like a big worm since he worked with nature)
- It's one of morgoths creation (makes sense and is practical since he had many creatures and would probably want navy support for his wars)
another theory of note i find vaguely funny:
its one of the fallen blue wizards that turned into this because, and stay with me here..water is blue.
EDIT: ok people, when I say morgoth's creation I mean he twisted something, i know melkor can't make things on his own. If I said I made a species and attached bat wings to a rat you wouldn't say "you didn't make it".
The watcher is Kaizer Soze
@@jhtrq1465 well I did mention the usual suspects :)
Was always dissatisfied with the handling of the other 3 wizards.
Morgoth can't make things. Only corrupt or subvert.
@@specialnewb9821 you knew what i meant
In Deep Geek back at it again answering questions I never knew I had!
That one line from Gandalf, "I will bring no report to darken the light of day" has my mind racing and always has since I read the books. Sure, it's possible Gandalf just didn't want to sour anybody's mood and that they had more pressing matters to attend to... but, given the ability to cast a great shadow and "darken the light of day" is a thing that Sauron could and did do. (notably during the siege on Minas Tirith) Is it possible that just talking about whatever was down there could ACTUALLY cause the effect of casting a shadow that darkens the light of day. The more I think about it, the more curious I get about the nameless things.
Maybe it's simply that there really are "things that we don't benefit from knowing", "things Man was not meant to know", not because they are "naughty" but because they are literally *_unhealthy,_* because they are *_bad for you._*
@@arcadiaberger9204This is the idea of an “info hazard” which is information that is in itself dangerous. It’s hard to think of an example because it’s more of a thought experiment and idea that asks, “Is there knowledge that just knowing it causes harm? Can information itself be dangerous?” and the best example is something like Rokos Basilisk which states that one day an all powerful AI will be developed and it will create a perfect world for everyone who assisted in it’s development and creation and punish everyone who didn’t help but knew about it by keeping them in perpetual torture. Basically, if you know about Rokos Basilisk and don’t immediately dedicate yourself to creating it, it will torture you… so theoretically just knowing its existence could be an info hazard. You’d much rather not know and not take the risk, even if it’s a small chance.
I always liked the idea of a sort of magical info hazard like some kind of spell or being that spreads just by knowing it exists or saying its name. An Eldritch abomination that grows more powerful the more people know its name or something like that… that’s seriously scary because even if you don’t do anything wrong, just knowing it puts you in danger and you can’t will yourself to un-know something…
So good luck with the basilisk… I hope your new coding career goes well. ;D hahaha
@@arcadiaberger9204I’m confused. What unhealthy things are you talking about? Do you mean like ignorance is bliss and explaining stuff like what that monster is and what happened at Moria would negatively impact the squad?
@@kirknichols178 Well...we are obliged to tell our children about what happened at Auschwitz and in the gulags and at Guantanamo Bay, our own children and our children's children's children....
But suppose you were to be visiting a world on the other side of the Galaxy, inhabited by a race just rising into sapience? A race in a state of innocence, whom you could visit for a short while, and gift a few days' worth of human culture, having been granted their language.
Would you sing "Amazing Grace" to them, teach them how to knap a Clovis point from a piece of obsidian, show them how to find north by the Pole Star?
Or would you tell them about how humanity invented a lovely thing we called genocide? Or maybe slavery?
Things that they would have no need to know, because they were not part of THEIR heritage.
If a creature's name was in the Black speech wouldnt mentioning it have this exact effect ?
You might be onto something
I always thought the Watcher *was* the Balrog in another form. When they hit the water, Gandalf describes the Balrog's fire as being "quenched" and that it became "a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake," which makes me think it had tentacles. And as a Maiar, it would have been able to use the ring properly, hence why it went for Frodo.
I think this makes sense too. If so, it's a foreshadowing of the Balrog and that the Balrog later turns into a thing of slime and immeasurable strength.
Then it would have wanted to stay in the deep Underdark water, instead it flees through the burrowing tunnels till their fight ends at the mountains peak 8 days later. Sorry, doesn’t add up.
@@CanadianWolverine Actually, it does. In the water, it's this thing with tentacles; underground, shadow and flame. It's like it adapts to its surroundings. Furthermore, if Gandalf were able to kill the balrog, as implied later in the trilogy, it makes sense that the balrog might run from him the moment the fight turned against it. So it flies to the mountain peak, takes on a new form, hoping its new adaptions will turn the tide of combat.
I love it when things remain a mystery, the unknown is often more scary than the truth.
Almost always
The watcher in the water is just one of those nasty things that can happen when you don't properly initialize your memory after allocation, jumbled leftovers from another reality. Remember, if you cast a pointer (in)to void, you never know what you'll find on the other end…
(I'll see myself out)
Unless, of course, it's a free() routine, or a format implementation.
Neither of those should be considered safe neighbors.
I have practicals exam from C programming tomorrow. Thanks for reminding me to make sure to not summon some eldritch horror through undefined behavior :)
Very nicely done! I think you missed one possibility, Gandalf also reports "'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He [the Balrog] was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake." I agree with you that the Watcher was a mystery and not an aquatic Balrog, but that possibility probably should have been mentioned.
I think the Nameless Things as free agents that exist in the world, but nevertheless also hate Elves, Men and Dwarves for their own reasons is about right. Especially as this theme was just hammered home in the prior attempt at the pass under Caradhras where it is strongly implied that the mountain itself was out to hinder them. Tolkien was no John Muir as far as his attitude towards nature - stuff that is mild and well ordered is the Nature he loved. Completely Wild nature is always fraught with mortal danger if not outright evil in Tolkien.
Anyway, there is one other place where something is mentioned that is evocative of the watcher. In the Silmarillion in “On Beren and Luthien” as B and L are approaching the gate of Angband there is the line “Black chasms opened beside the road, whence forms as of writhing serpents issued”. No need to comment further, but it does make one wonder if Morgoth had some pets with a fetish for guarding gates, and maybe one or more of these things have been hiding out since his fall just waiting for the right chance to do some guarding and writhing again.
Oh, I like that last idea!
I was thinking as I watched, perhaps it matched the description of a corrupted Maiar even if not implied by Tolkien
Keep in mind though that the balrog changed into a snake, which means the watcher could have BEEN the balrog as it seems they can change shape. And as said, it went for the ring, not just anybody.
It is all a hodgepodge of stories and concepts, but in Tolkien’s mythology we know that the universe and everything in it was sung into existence by the Ainur during “The Great Music”, and even though they did not necessarily know what the singing meant until they entered the real world, and in many cases not even then, part of their song became aspects of the real world. So for example Yavanna sang the Ents into existence even though she didn’t realize it at the “time”. That and, as we are told, even though Eru is more of a spectator God watching from outside, he DOES occasionally reach into physical existence to “tweak” things. Long story short - there is more than enough support for the existence of many things in the world such as Bombadil, Watchers, and The Nameless Things that don’t necessarily need to be shoehorned into previously defined categories. Maybe the watcher and the nameless things were just a particular nightmare that emerged out of Melkor’s bit of throw away ditty back in The Music.
Tolkien's admission that he'd read lovecraft without doing so
Man, I legitimately can't heap enough praise upon your for these videos. Your attention to detail combined with your detective work about all things Tolkien and your passion are just epic! You do an incredible job of teasing out SO much detail from the smallest bits of lore etc. Keep up the great work!
I always thought the Watcher was likely to be a Maia. Some corrupted, ancient evil thing. Perhaps originally a servant of Ullo who went to Morgoth's side. It would explain its squid-like nature.
An unnatural squid is unlikely to develop hands... But I think the maiar mostly favoured humanoid shapes, and thus having hands on the end of its tentacles might be easily explained thus. Great video regardless. Always a treat when a new one drops, Robert!
I'd say it's from the same cloth as the Ungoliant... Just less powerful. Dark being key word here
@@Annathroy It is unclear what Ungoliant is, as well. She was clearly very powerful, but she seemed to gain power when she consumed the 2 trees.
I think it is possible that she was also a Maia. Her sphere of influence being that of spiders and consumption, perhaps. But she gained such incredible power by consuming the 2 trees that even Melkor was scared of her. That goes to show just how powerful the trees were, as well.
Would Gandalf have been able to recognize it if it were? See its true nature, as it were?
@@Kryptnyt hmmm maybe. Im not sure. There are so few Maia around, perhaps that would be the case. But it's also been living alone under a rock for thousands of years. Even it may have forgotten what it is in that time...
I love your videos so much! Your tone, enthusiasm, and voice all just make the awesome Tolkien lore you’re discussing that much more enjoyable to listen to and learn about ❤
I don't know why it took me so long to discover your channel, but I love it. It's very relaxing to listen to you and I've received so many answers. Some of which were of questions I don't even knew I had. I hope you have a long and successful presence on TH-cam, and thanks for every video c:
That "Nameless Thing" always gives me the heebie-jeebies! Jackson did a great job capturing its essence over 20 years ago.
Thank you, Robert!
I always considered it one of the Nameless Things. I don't think it was driven into the lake by orcs or the balrog but rather that it took the chance to move into the lake when the lake formed. I think the lake was only made to block the doors with the Watcher being an unintended side effect only.
As for it going for Frodo. We know precious little of the Nameless Things but if they in any way share characteristics with Ungoliant then they are voracious consumers of all power, both light and dark, and the Ring would have shone like a beacon of power worth consuming to such an entity. Who knows maybe a being powerful enough to actually consume the One Ring fully and "unmake" it might have existed down at the roots of the world, but obviously it would not have been a very viable solution to the problem both because of the unknowns but also because such an entity with the power of the Ring might become a serious and permanent threat to the world.
A fun twist could have been if Sauron woke all the things down there up when he got the ring and they slowly make their way to the surface like some kind of ecological disaster
I choose to believe the nameless things (including the watcher) was a nod by Tolkien to HP Lovecraft, just as Tom was a nod to his earlier works. Not of *this* world, having existed before it, but somehow now in it. His homage to previous fantasy works.
Though, from what I can tell, Tolkien and Lovecraft had no discernible influence on each other despite being of the same generation. Lovecraft never achieved much fame during his lifetime and mostly wrote for pulp magazines whereas Tolkien was an academic more concerned with mythology and fairy tales. Plus, they lived on opposite sides of the Atlantic. I mean, I guess it's not impossible that Tolkien read some of Lovecraft's work at some point, but if he liked it enough to write an homage into own book you'd think he would have mentioned the man at some point.
(On the other hand, both of them were influenced by Lord Dunsany.)
It seems slightly more likely that they were Tolkien's acknowledgement of the same tropes that underpinned Lovecraft's fiction. Which are a lot older than either of them, probably examples going back well into prehistory and clear examples going back almost as far as history itself does (for example, Chthonic deities). If "the unknown" is the driver of most human fear, darkness (especially in an environment that is otherwise inimical to humans, such as a deep cave or underwater) is arguably the strongest "terror" trope you can invoke. There are fairly obvious reasons for it to be associated with "bad things" (whether evil or just dangerous) across a huge number of human cultures.
Except all life in Tolkien’s work explicitly comes from Eru, ie God, so it can’t by its very definition be lovecraftian.
All that is evil in Tolkien’s work stems from the rejection of God’s divine Providence and the corruption of Melkor which is healed in the 7th age when Jesus Christ ie Eru Illuviatar in the flesh incarnates himself as a man to heal the corruption in of Morgoth.
Even Ungoliant was a Maia that fled to the void with Melkor, neither she, nor the watcher where cosmic horrors, they where simply products of Melkor’s corruption.
@@jarlwilliam9932Where are you getting this information? I have dived deep into the lore and works of Tolkien over the decades and have never seen Ungoliant even remotely referenced as a Maia, and only as something “other/of the void/the darkness.” I HIGHLY doubt Melkor would fear and need saving from a simple Maia, as he did Ungoliant. Just wanting to see if you can point me to a source.
@@masamune2984 The Book of Lost Tales, the valar try to remember where Ungoliant came from, one of the origins they lay out is her being Maia which makes the most sense.
Melkor was never afraid of Ungoliant, she traps him in one instance, and gets folded by the Balrogs who are Maia, so if six Maia can make Ungoliant at her most powerful run for her life, she never stood a chance against a Melkor wanting to destroy her. And his works portray this as it was Ungoliant who was terrified of Morgoth not the other way around as Morgoth was the most powerful of the valar, God’s most powerful Angel, and Ungoliant was terrified of the full might of the valar.
Obviously we'll never know the answer, but Nameless Things and the Watcher in the Water are almost guaranteed to be results of Melkor singing his own tune during song of creation. Just like basically all evil, it originated from that. It would make sense to why these things are older than Sauron and why he doesn't know about them, as even Melkor himself didn't know all of what he had created, and he mostly focused on elves, orcs and dragons anyway. Ungoliant is probably also his creation, although with the level of power she had, it could be argued.
Keep in mind that like in religion, a 'creator' is as fascist as any dictator. In literature the 'good' is never truly 'good' and the presence of evil is meant to remind us of that. Like Catholicism the 'assumption' is supposed to be that God is good simply because He's the creator, but thats a cop out. ANY force that has control and only offers 'freedom with consequences' is not actually benign, and so not actually 'good'.
In particular the elves, once created, spread dominion over middle earth. Well, who asked them to? They had to wreck stuff up to create cities, they started wars even between themselves.
Because 'good' is never truly 'good', there is always going to be the presence of 'evil'.
@@mikearchibald744The christians say God is good because he is the moral law giver. God is so loving and good that he forgives the same people who mocked and crucified him. God commands people to love thy neighbor like thyself and Christ kicks it up a notch by commanding his followers to love their enemies.
Also free choice is necessary for love. If I love someone and they dont love me in return and then i forced them to love me that wouldnt be love. If I love someone and they CHOOSE to love me in return than thats true love.
@@mattSinco You realize you just described god right? God COMMANDS people to love others. You are just repeating what I wrote. Except there is no free choice in love IF its a command. "I'm in charge, love others". Thats not free choice.
@@mikearchibald744 Of course there's a choice, God commands but you don't have to follow. People do that everyday.
Also on your original post you said "freedom with consequences is not actually benign and so not actually good" makes no sense.
If you're a thief or a murderer and stand before God and he just sweeps your choices under the rug that's not good or just.
@@mattSinco Atually he DOES do that, quite often. In fact the ONLY person we know is in heaven from the bible is the criminal on the cross next to him. If you DON"T follow you go to hell, so thats not really a choice is it? Most people of course don't follow much of the bible simply because they don't believe that anyway. Anyway, I'm not getting into a theological discussion on a tolkien channel so have a nice life.
He’s the source of my childhood nightmares
It actually appeared more than once in my nightmares
I didnt even think it was all that scary when i was awake. Unconscious mind would beg to differ i guess
I think he might be the source of my fascination with cephalapods. Well, him and H.P. Lovecraft.
Great video. I feel like with how Gandalf describes the Watcher and creatures like it as “older…than Orcs”, he’s specifically talking about the Orcs’ arrival in the mines of Moria, and not the age of Orcs as a race. I like to think that the watcher and its ilk are unknowable things that sprouted out on their own, as things that weren’t intelligently designed like the rest of the creatures and races of Arda. that probably explains why Gandalf is so disturbed by these things to the point of refusing to discuss them, as well as why the Watcher is such a sprawling and nasty creature, lacking basic definition and having a ton of tendrils and extraneous appendages. Your narration is great and the amount of research that went into this is wonderful!
No he's talking about the orcs as a race. The nameless things were made during the music of Ainur when they created Arda. The orcs were made by Melkor much later. Even the elves aren't as old as the nameless things.
@@enigma9971 i was just talking about the specific context of that sentence
@@prelife9152 No, the context is that the Nameless Things are literally older than Orcs. It's not that they were in Moria before Orcs.
You don't go around stating to others about people who arrive at a place or event before them, saying: "Oh he's older than you."
You say: "They got here before you."
It's important to note that the nameless things cannot actually be older than Sauron, who existed before time began along with Gandalf and the rest of the Ainur. Strictly speaking, Gandalf was referring to Sauron in the state after his corruption once descended into Arda, not Mairon the literal being.
There seems to have been a period in between when the world was created and when the singers entered it… or rather, since the singing happened in a timeless place, their entry was not "at the beginning of time", but rather some ways into it. Timeless beings cannot be said to be "older", and if the nameless things were in Arda from an earlier point in its time flow than where the spirits first incarnated / manifested, they would in a meaningful way be older. It seems fairly clear that no entity except the big guy actually had a comprehension of the entire song and how its parts interacted, until it was "made manifest", and then perhaps only the parts that they actually experienced at least semi-directly.
Thank you, I was having an anxiety attack and listening to you calmed me down. I also use this channel asmr because of how nice your voice is
I had strangely never thought about this question before, yet now it intrigues me.
Outstanding my friend.
There's something very endearingly sweet about the nickname "guard squid".
Good Squid 🦑
@@TheWatcherxx99Could you call him Squidworth? Lol.
It is an absolute pleasure listening to these videos. Thank you for your time and effort
I like the thought of it just being an ancient mysterious being that hasn’t seen the light of day in ages. No one knows what it is or where it comes from ( including whatever else is down there). And the reason it singled Frodo out is because although it’s just a mysterious creature, and the ring being in such close proximity to it, Sauron was able to “call” to it and subtly influence it. But that’s just my thoughts
Something similar is mentioned in "Of Beren and Luthien". There it is said that before the Gate of Angband "Black chasms opened beside the road, whence forms as of writhing serpents issued."
Interesting that Tolkien should not like H.P. Lovecraft's work (or so I am told) when here he's created a perfectly Lovecraftian horror and speaks of it and its kin in Lovecraftian terms like "nameless things".
To the best of my knowledge, Tolkien didn't even know about Lovecraft and his writings when Tolkien was writing LOTR.
Difference of philosophy. Tolkien was a Catholic, and truly believed that the forces of Light/Order would triumph over Darkness/Chaos.
Lovecraft's insistence that existence was meaningless and that any "gods" that might exist were not remotely on the side of humanity almost certainly would have been an affront to Tolkien's beliefs.
Perfect timing. I’m painting my Watcher for the Middle Earth Strategy Battle Game and I’ve been waiting for this video to release
The Watcher in the Water is almost certainly one of the rogue Maiar that followed Morgoth, but how it came to be there and why is the greater mystery. These mysteries left unexplained are some of the best parts of the Legendarium. Parts of the story that even Tolkien wasn't sure about.
I don't think so, Gandalf say it is older than Sauron and Sauron is a maiar, what is more likely is that it is one of the creatures of the void, like ungoliath who wandered from the void to middle Earth.
Its one onf the "things" created by the discordance of Melkor.
@@AnacronianSo a result of the discordant melody sung by Melkor?
@@aidenharper6013 There are things which existed outside of the song of creation. Creatures like Ungolianth that existed in the dark before Middle Earth was created and were not even creations of Eru Ilúvatar. Tom Bombadil also seems to be like this because he literally came from another story that Tolkien wrote, and wasn't bound by the rules of this reality. That is what gives these dark creatures their transcendental Eldritch horror quality. Very Lovecraftian, obviously.
@@Anacronianthat depends on context. Gandalf is the Maia Olorin incarnated in mortal form, therefore Olorin is older than Gandalf. Sauron was originally Mairon, a servant of Aule until he took Melkor’s side.
In his mortal form, Gandalf’s recollection of his days (years and millennia) as a Maia is obfuscated so he might not remember Sauron as Mairon.
I propose two theories: when Melkor wove his discord into the Music of the Ainur he imagined such dark things as the Watcher and the Nameless Things. Or that as Maiar defected to Melkor’s side some became Balrogs but others were “gifted” in a different way: “Of the Enemies” The Silmarillion. A few became demons of fire and shadow, the Balrogs. Others were less well rewarded and instead became nameless things scattered about Middle-Earth.
Tolkien originally suggested there might be a thousand Balrogs, then changed his mind to no more than 7.
What if that difference is Melkor keeping his favourites as demonic bodyguards and the rest were reduced to monsters that spread across Arda?
in my headcanon the watcher in the water was a lesser Balrog. There where differences in might and magic among the Balrog, so it was beholden to that fighting Gandalf. And as other commenters mentioned, the Balrog turned into a slimy thing, strangling and grasping, so the form is not unknown.
Excellent video! It could either be a corrupted Maiar or some form of twisted evil by Morgoth.
Good one. I enjoyed that.
Brilliant, thank you
It was a mysterious beast that you aren't supposed to be able to figure out. Tolkien's purpose was to *include mystery and unknowns* , which are always present in stories of ancient times.
Every so often a channel makes a video about the Watcher In The Water, and every time I get so excited to learn more about it, as if Tolkien will have released some new information 😂😢
But an amazing episode as always
You're always so good at what you do. One could have very little to no interest in, or foreknowledge of, the actual subject and yet might remain captivated by your tones and confident delivery of a nearly lyrical composition of raw fact and imaginative supposition.
Thank you very, very much.
Another fabulous video, thank you
I love these analyses! I would guess after watching this, that it did in fact eventually delve back from whence it came. After having closed the gate it was guarding, and the water level lowering, and there hadn't probably been much else for it to do there, it traversed back to a greater realm.
And/or it played its sinister role in trying to capture the ring? Having failed it was time to dive back down to who knows where lol
The third, unstated option would be that it moved on to somewhere else. Beyond the events in Moria, beyond even the fall of Sauron, Tolkien wrote that there were many changes happening in the world. I think it is entirely reasonable to consider that this creature- if that’s even the right word- found a new place to live.
If Tolkiens cosmology is to be consistent, "older than Sauron" takes some thinking about. The Maiar precede Arda, and so we have two possibilities, that some Maiar are older than others (and so the WitW is a Maiar), or that the WitW was in Arda before Sauron got there. There seems to be no reason to think that Eru did more than one creation of the Valar and the Maiar. The second option has in my opinion three solutions: the first being that Melkor got to Arda before Sauron did, and did a bit of corrupting on his own; the second that the WitW was a Maia which just arrived earlier; or that it and the other things were there when Arda was first presented to the Valar and the Maiar, because of the interference in the Song by Melkor. (The fourth possibility is that Tolkien's cosmology is not consistent.)
All of these theories have been mentioned by other contributors to these comments - I just want to put a logical framework on it.
I don't subscribe to the idea that the WitW is a Maia: I think it was in Arda before Sauron got there, though whether there dincd the Song or as a result of Melkor's interference I can't tell. One reason is it being driven out of the depths.
The balrog in my opinion certainly had the possibility and power to influence everything around it for its own purposes, at least in the absence of Melkor. It was a Maia. Melian's Girdle was a protective device set up by a Maia which could not be done by an elf; Sauron was able to attract all evil things and all news of the Ring to him and control their operations, as well as a million orcs or so simultaneously; Saruman could influence Theoden at a distance and direct his armies. But if the WitW was also a Maia, then it is debatable as to whether it could have been influenced by another Maia - the balrogs did not seem to be subject to Sauron. So I go against the idea that the WitW was a Maia.b
Time didn't start until Ilúvatar brought Arda into existence. Anything in Arda before any particular Ainu entered Arda would be older than that Ainu even though all the Ainur played a part in the creation of Arda. It's a weird concept to try and wrap your head around. There's no reason to think all the Ainur that went to Arda did so at the same time. In the case of Tulkas, it is very clear they did not and there are other hints here and there that they did not all arrive en masse. Melkor was very likely one of the first to arrive and he had plenty of time to engage in all sorts of breeding of monsters as described in The Silmarillion as the earliest ages of Arda, even before the Years of the Lamps, only have the barest of their history sketched out.
It arguably isn't fully consistent and seeing as no real life mythology is, that makes it only seem more like one.
Personally I always like to think about the older layers of Tolkien's writing before he increasingly tried to tidy it up and fit most stuff into neat categories himself (and became more focussed on trying to make everything fit properly with catholic orthodoxy).
In the "Book of Forgotten Tales" for example there is even a hint at the existence of other gods, older and apparently unrelated to the Valar at one point.
What a great Monday afternoon treat! Cheers
I legitimately searched through your videos last night to see if you had posted a video on it.
I think the most likely explanation for the Nameless Things (and I include the Watcher in the Water in their numbers) is that they are the result of Morgoth's earliest efforts at breeding various monsters. They were his rejects or ones that managed to escape. As such, others of their kind could likely be found in other places in Arda. While dangerous, they were not as powerful as a Balrog and certainly not in Sauron's league. I like the thought that the Balrog placed the Watcher in that lake to watch the West gate of Moria.
But this one specifically is quote "older than Sauron". It doesnt compute
@@Annathroy It means Morgoth bred at least some of these creatures before Sauron entered Arda. Time does not exist outside Arda.
The Nameless could be even older than Morgoth's breeding experiments. A popular theory is that they're the result of the discord that Morgoth added to the Music of the Ainur at the creation of the universe. That would mean they've been around since the beginning of Arda and would predate Sauron's physical form.
I have a few purist friends that strongly dislike Jackson's LOTR. But, I find that many of his changes were very cinematic. By having Pippin they're the rock, it builds his character greatly, while losing very little of Boromir.
Greatttt banger of a video, thanks!!
I just saw this in my feed, and I'm loving it. Subscribing now.
It's a Tamagotchi that somebody forgot to look after.
Oh hell, that was me, sorry!
Obviously it was an escapee from the H. P. Lovecraft universe. I personally believe it was a scion of Great Cthulhu and had been transported there in a wormhole time rift.
Seems legit
Thanks mate for your smart and concise content, always instructive
This was excellent. Well done.
Imagine Sauron passing there and getting jump-scared and screaming like a girl 😂😂
LOL🤣
The Watcher in the Water is part of my secret menagerie, along with The Whisperer in Darkness, The Thing on The Doorstep, and The Rats in the Walls.
And what ever hides under your bed.😁
@@londomolari5715 Oh, you mean George. 😊
Wow! Yet another fascinating and insightful look into Tolkien's world. I never really thought much about what the Watcher was or where it came from, so this analysis really got my attention. As always, thank-you Robert for making such interesting content!
Been watching for a few years now Robert, still really enjoying your LOTR videos and still missing your travellers guide to Essos videos!
There is a version in the History of Middle earth about nameless gods older than Melkor and the Valar.
"In Nan Dungorthin where nameless gods have shrouded shrines in shadow secret, more old than Morgoth or the Ancient lords the golden Gods of the guarded west".
And like Gandalf said: "nameless thing older than Sauron". It's possible that this nameless things are products of Music of the Ainur: "(...) and the music and the echoe of the Music went out into the Void, and it was not void".
Or, the Void before the creation was an another dimension filled with lovecraftian gods/monsters older than Ainur.
Yes but that is from The Book of Lost Tales; Tolkien's earliest versions of the Legendarium. It's interesting but Tolkien appears to have discarded them in his later writings.
Nicely done! You didn't tell us anything that someone that has carefully read the Lord of the Rings couldn't glean by themselves. But you told it in a way that put all the available pieces together; and so your whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Thank you!
Thank you so much for this video. I had always wondered about the watcher in the water and where it came from. Absolutely love all of the LotR videos you make
As always, an interesting theory, thanks Robert!
I hadn't really given it much thought before, but when you posed the question my first answer would be that it was one of the corrupted creatures that Morgoth brought about during the Marring of the Spring of Arda. The published Silmarillion mentions: "... and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth red with blood." It seems quite plausible that something similar could have been going on underwater. Though now that I think about it, it is stated that Morgoth hated and feared the Sea, so maybe not. But that would make it older than the orcs by a wide margin.
I never thought of it before, but now after watching this video, I think there is something quite lovecraftian, or more precisely shoggoth-like, about the Watcher in the Water. Could it have been (partly) a tribute to H. P. Lovecrafts Cthulhu mythos?
Always a pleasure to hear your analysis of all things Tolkien :)
What an unexpectedly fun video!
I always presumed that the Watcher itself made the lake, by damming the river. If it originally came out of the mountain and required an aquatic environment, it would have thought the river restrictive. Also it would limit its potential food supply. Since people wanted to go to a fro to the door, it would logically wish to block the river to create a pool, which limited the paths that terrestrial animals and people would take to access the door, coming or going. Note how the Fellowship had to come along a very specific route, stepping in the water, thus alerting the Watcher. It could then position itself, in its vast and concealing pool, nearer to the door to try and collect food. Or, if it was in fact consciously guarding the entrance to Moria, then it had created a sort of land weir, to funnel and guide interlopers to a position near the door where it could ambush them. The doors were closed, whether by Orcs or by the Watcher itself. If we think of it as a trapdoor spider, then it just waits for something or someone to emerge from Moria. That potential pray item is then restricted in paths and options for rapid escape, affording the Watcher more opportunity to capture whoever just left Moria. My only real point in all this is that if the Watcher plopped out of the mountain into a river, it had good reasons for wanting a large and still pool as a preferable home, and venue for its function, whether that be guarding the entrance to Moria, or just living and eating what it could find. That's why I always thought that the Watcher made his own pool, just as beavers dam rivers to make pools for themselves.
@@Seegster77 It's worth bearing in mind that even what Tolkien himself wrote in his private notes isn't necessarily canonical. What made it into the online game is one interpretation - one possibility - but it lacks the authority of Tolkien's own notes, which lack the authority of the published works.
That doesn't mean the game is wrong, but there's nothing that guarantees it's right either.
I think the Watcher is in the same category as Ungoliant, living creatures that crept from the void due to the influence of Melkor, as he tried to fuse his will with the fibre of existence. The "Nameless Things" are like feral chaos, spirit creatures made flesh. Morgoth didnt create them himself, but his influence stirred them into existence & gave them savage attributes that mirrored his own. So they are essentially aspects of the void, that have developed an (unnatural) will of their own. Ungoliant is known for her insatiable hunger, which can be considered an exaggerated or unrestrained version of Melkor's own greed. The Watcher is probably moreso a representation of his envy & cowardace, reaching up from darkness to grasp blindly for power, but forever hiding & fearful of the light above.
That is my interpretation, it would make sense that these kinds of ancient monsters in his stories (such as the Balrog being "wrathful") exist as a sort of facsimile for Melkor himself, as sort of residual reflections of those aspects of primordial evil. We never see the original dark lord or get a clear explanation of who he was from a character perspective, but we can see & feel his influence most clearly in those monsters. We dont see Sauron himself either, but his nature is conveyed similarly through his servants like the Nazgul, as well as more "neutral creatures" affected by him, like Gollum or Shelob.
Excellent, as ever!
Nice work dude thanks
For me, it is one of the “nameless things”. A huge and terrible monster crafted by darker powers.
I think it's a creation of Morgoth. One of his pets. An ancient spirit or even a Maiar. I have to say me and you come to nearly the exact conclusions. I've watched a lot of these Tolkien pod-casters and they almost always get something wrong or quote something not in the books. Not you. Your def my favorite to listen to on these subjects!
Awesome video!
amazing video! Thank you !
The watcher was always for me one of the most mysterious elements of Middle Earth, I always assumed it was one of the nameless things, an ancient being that somehow found itself dwelling in the underground lakes beneath Moria.
The DM was bored because the party couldn't figure out a simple puzzle, so they rolled up a random encounter to try and break up the monotony.
There were little tidbits in this video that I never picked up on when I watched this movie a hundred times. I never read the books either, but the movie has most of the information that the books had about this creature. Great job.
Finally you made a video about this!!
Love your videos my man!!!
The seven gods of Westeros even fear this monster I believe 🙏🏼🙏🏼
No, the watcher in the water was actually just my childhood trauma!
I like that the watcher is a mystery. I always categorized it as something along the lines of Ungoliant, just like…”you don’t need to know what it comes from. You only need know that it is intelligent enough to deliberately choose corruption, and that’s bad news for those fighting for good.”
Also…damn, I love listening to you talk. I’m sure you’d get strikes on your channel, but if you released a chapter by chapter narration of LOTR, I’d use that to fall asleep every night.
Love your channel and so glad I found it. Would love some videos on the Dark Crystal reboot and even the Elder Scrolls franchise, if you swing that way!
Wonderful narration 🥰
The final words of your videos always make me shiver with their weight.
Now I need go watch a bunch of LOTR videos for the umptenth time, starting with the watcher scene from the fellowship of the ring. Thank you, great video. 😊
Thank you so much! This has been on my bucket list for a loooong time. I was reading the story to some younglings. They ask what does look like? I said; "very scary looking monster, like when your parent gets up in the morning." Also, Bill as well, they asked me about what happen to him. So again, thank you.
Another high quality video
I love these videos, Robert always does such a comprehensive job of reading through the lore. Are there any videos on who the Southlanders were?
Great video!
Fantastic video
Hey Robert,
This is my 1000th comment humbly asking for another Will of Time video.
Your beginners' guide to WOT is what got me to read the series. 15 books later, here I am.
Would you please consider?