I read Fawn Brodie’s courageous book and left the church 3 days later! I named my son Brodie after her. I love her. I wish she only knew how many of us good women she saved! Thank you John - Carah -and Newell for helping us to bring to life this fabulous woman and fellow truth teller back to life and another chance to pay homage to her and her work.
Where can I get this book? Is there anywhere cheap online? I’m tight on money and confused as ever. I’m surrounded by so much delusion and denial and all I want is truth ugh.
A longtime listener, don't know how I missed this epic episode. Notable that this is my first ever comment. Blown away by the brilliance, balance, depth and breadth of Newell's scholarship. Mere words fail me. Simply amazing! As John says, he's a treasure. Deep gratitude to Newell, John and Carah. (Feel free to edit)
Same here, exactly. I love the guy's (Newell's) obvious scholarly intelligence and integrity, but also his delightful sense of humor is another huge plus for me... yup, a treasure! ❤
Thank you, Mormon Stories and Dr. Dehlin for healing my mind and soul today! I feel less depressed and have hope for my future without the LDS church. Thank you so much, friends! ((hug))
It's hard losing your community and friends and family because you had the courage to follow the truth. But we as ex-Mos are all here for you and want you to know that you're not alone and you did the right thing.
Your non-LDS path can be very good. Mine was rocky at first but less so every year that passed. See what you on your own care to do to have a relationship with the Infinite. There are 1000 paths to self-understanding and integrity and virtue.
Love Mormon stories, it has taught me a lot!! Which I never even knew!! Like tbom is a work of fiction!!! I'm freaking out!!! I'm born under the covenant and this really rocks my world!! This is a great Mormon story!
9 years ago, while questioning/studying the history of the Mormon church, I was introduced to “No Man Knows My History”, which I read cover to cover in short order, it was the pivotal study which allowed me to write me resignation letter and leave the LDS church. I absolutely love this discussion into the personal life/history of the book. Thanks to the three of you for the discussion!!
This was a WONERFUL interview! I actually hung on to each word hearing about Fawn Brodie, as I did with her words about Joseph Smith. It's time to re-read .No Man...".
Never been Mormon, but this was so fascinating. I appreciate that Newell did his level best to be as fair as possible in his assessments and has such a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
I will never forget the day I read NMKMH. My respect for Fawn’s intelligence and courage still completely blows me away. I’m excited to read Newell’s books! Thank you 🙏
Newell is such a treasure. I vote to have him back with more insight into the complex world of LDS. I am enamored of Fawn Brodie and am going to order her book.
No Man Knows My History and Insiders View of Mormonism by Grant Palmer. These two books made me finally realize the church wasn’t what it proclaims to be. I sent in my resignation shortly thereafter and never looked back.
Your Life's experience is an inspiration to me , as I'm sure to others. Both of you , have "knocked the ball 🏈 out of the park." On this one. Thank you very much !
This was a blast. Trully enjoyed this interview. Fawn Brodie was such an inspirational woman and I have a huge respect for her work and research! Her book "No Man Knows My History" is brilliant. Still can't comprehend how she already pretty much uncovered all the issues with J.Smith and mormonism in 1940s! Looking forward to future interviews with Newell!
My mother was a nonbeliever from Mormon ancestry and had many active family members. When she decided to stop cancer treatment, she asked three of her grandsons for a blessing before she went on Hospice. I believe she thought it was comforting to her and her grandsons. Being terminally ill did not change her feelings about the church.
Fun story, my great aunt was married to LaMar Petersen who wrote Hearts Made Glad. My mother and father knew him very well. He told my mother that he got called into David O McKay’s office where he was told not to publish it. He said but it’s all true. David O McKay told him Yeah but people can’t handle it. He published it anyway and got excommunicated.
LaMar Peterson brought Hearts Made Glad into our health food store in Provo about 1975 and said what you say, and I bought a copy and read every word. I was a faithful educated Mormon and just saw that drinking had been important before it was banned. That they kicked him out caused me more disaffection than the book's booze story, but I stayed with it for about ten more years. Thanks for mentioning it.
@@mr.teezee It's the story of drinking alcohol quite a bit among church leaders including Brother Joseph, long before it was banned. Sometimes they got good and plastered.
@alanras370 I once read part of a journal written by the daughter of my Mormon pioneer ancestor. She wrote about them crossing a river and afterward the men were cold from standing in the river, so they drank liquor to warm them up. She said it was the first time she had seen her father actually tipsy. I would assume that he had drunk alcohol before since she did not mention that it was the first time he had drunk it, only that it was the first time she saw him tipsy. I remember being very surprised that they were drinking alcohol. Obviously, they had it with them, so it must have been accepted at the time.
I have this book and applauded her for standing up aginst all the religious opposition ,speaking truth and asking those 🙊🙉hush hush questions. She's a great lady to me .Thank u so much for the video ,I've been waiting to hear this 😊
My Wife read Fawn’s book to me while we drove from SLC to Dallas/Plano Tx during our exit from the LDS Corporation early March 2018. March 23, we resigned! Fabulous Book!
Can I send couple missionaries over? Knock knock hi would you be interested in hearing about Mormonism and fact you can have multiple wives? Dang it get in here tell me more
Fawn Brodie, a woman so ahead of her time in many areas. She will always be a legend to those seeking to know the truth. Thanks for this presentation it was epic…👌🏽
I agree wholeheartedly. I am not a Mormon but am fascinated by her courage and intellect. Fawn's gradual awakening showed she was able to instinctually and gradually move forward to find the truth. Considering her background, she had great courage.
@@mariannepolkowski-burns2627 She paid a price for her integrity, as most with this character trait will attest. Many were the beneficiaries of her principles….👏🏾
Having served a 2 year mission for the LDS church in New Zealand completed in 1981. I had come out of the Mormon Church in that same year. In regards to Fawn McKay-Brodie, I had read her book No Man Knows my History back in 1978 and it really shook me. It prepared me for 1981 where many Mormons in NZ had left the church.
This is one of the best podcasts you have shown. It gave me an appreciation of Fawn Brodie. I read the book many years ago and it has always been important to me. Thank you.
I grew up in the Bay Area in the 60s. Stokley Carmichael and Eldridge Cleaver and others were always in the news when I was in high school In the 1980s I attended a cottage meeting in Orem that Eldridge Cleaver spoke at. It was amazing to hear him. I will be looking forward to your book Newell. I am sure it will be most intriguing.
This is fascinating. Prior to when I finally gave myself permission to read her book (No Man Knows My History), I was fully expecting it to be an angry, anti-mormon book, full of lies, as this is how lds leaders presented it. I was shocked to find out that it was, for the most part, just straight history. Now, I'm finding out that her mentor counseled her to refrain from injecting her own feelings about her subject. It makes complete sense that she felt just as shocked and betrayed as the rest of us. To her credit, the book is a remarkable achievement of historical recording, that withstands the test of time.
Betrayal; my, foot. I, read parts of her book. To me, it was very well written. Seemed boring. The only Betrayal was not the Church; but, Betrayal to herself.. .
@@jodystimm2098 Jehovah's Witnesses,Seventh Day Adventists , Mormons. All came out of the same religious backdrop in America. Nice to know all us regular Christians are going to hell.
As a never-mo historian by training, I ran out and bought a copy of Brodie’s book. And it is thoroughly history with footnotes like crazy. Very careful piece of research. Wonderful writing
One of your best episodes. Thanks Newell Bringhurst.. I have really loved the historical episodes with people like John Hamer, Brent Metcalf, Matt Harris, Dan Vogel and so forth.
I'm Jewish and live in London. But in 1966-67 I was a young boy living in Los Angeles, where my father taught at UCLA. I remember the Brodies. They were his colleagues. Fawn Brodie was a nice lady - and a legendary scholar, known to have created a sensation with her Smith book years earlier. They lived in Pacific Palisades. We lived in Westwood - in a house owned by a senior LDS official at the Santa Monica Blvd Temple. Mormonism, all around my family, both fascinated and repelled us.
@@mormonstories I'm intrigued - you don't bother to ask what fascinated us? OK. Well, what aspects of Mormonism did my agnostic, egalitarian, universalist Jewish parents find unsympathetic? Quite a few things. The excommunication of Mrs Brodie! And all processes of censure and exclusion - which struck them as brutal and medieval. I also recall that they were ... alienated, baffled, by the prohibition on coffee, tea and alcohol.
@@mormonstories But let me say that at the same time we were all in awe of the fact that a truly venerable, traditional Utah LDS milieu had produced none other than Fawn Brodie herself. It was as though the purity and depth of her Mormon background somehow granted her the unique enquiring mind and spirit which led her to write the Smith biography - and fall in love with her Jewish husband Bernard Brodie!
I have been binge watching and listening for two weeks. This video is superb. Interesting, informative, validity, and so well done. Thank you John, Newell, and Cara. I want more! I cannot wait to read the book, but I wish I could have known Fawn Brodie. Oh! your time line John...Fawn was excommunicated right around by birthday June 9th, 1946. That HAD to be a very important bench mark for my Smiths as I am a Smith girl by birth! Hahaha
When I was 20 , I dated j fielding smith's , either grand or great grand daughter. This more than likely would have been a great mistake , had I pursued ferther.
I love the historian shade. It brings me back to my college days, the humble "well...I... don't really agree with him..." And then proceeds to eviscerate the other historian's argument, writing and research. *Chef's kiss
So much in my mind of upbringing. Dad devout southern Utah heritage and mom HATING the church....at 75 still lingers in my persona...its all so intense.....
Awesome video! Thank you! Love this episode about Brodie! She's literally inspiring especially the work that she did considering she did it many decades ago way before the internet! Very grateful so much to live in an age I could easily & freely know about this. THank you!
Fawn Brodie saved me from the Mormon madness. Read that book, realized what a complete fraud Joseph Smith was, and never looked back. Loved her Jefferson biography as well, although he - unlike Smith - had so many redeeming qualities, as Fawn so eloquently described.
Fascinating episode. I feel like I just discovered a new National treasure in Fawn Brody. Thank you for your work. It's great to see you so excited and I appreciate your deep respect for the contributions of the women.
I was in Huntsville Canyon this past summer. My family came there to that area around 1851. My uncle Keith drowned in the pool at the club down the canyon from there as a ten year old. There was a fire around Huntsville the day after I was up there in late July. I always remember President McKay when I was growing up and his face on family home evening book that we followed.
Free tip (my previous post does not seem to have gone through!): Newell's article on the vain two-faced seer David O. (he reportedly stopped the excommunication of Sterling McMurrin of the U, but obviously let the razor drop on Brodie, his own blood!) can be found for free in the kindle sample of the book "Dimensions of Faith", edited by Stephen C. Taysom.
I believe it is often the will of the Greater Wisdom for us to be separated from associations like Mormondom. Every mortal thing we count on, churches and faith communities included, are limited, finite, will change, weaken, end. True friendship will not, no matter what difference of faith there may be.
How nice to see Paul Toscano posting here. You and I went for a two-hour walk talk about 1976 in Provo while still both, I take it, in the faith. I found a different path up the Holy Mountain, the path of Paramhansa Yogananda. I recall your talking of the Law of Compensation, but don't remember what you said. The divine wants me to fully forgive my Mormon people for being what they only know how to be.
This was such a small part of the interview, and please know that I am a *huge* fan of Mormon stories, but when referring to Thomas Jefferson and Sally, can we not call it a relationship? She was his slave...she had no ability to consent or even leave his residence.
When Thomas Jefferson freed Sally she did not leave. She could have left in Paris and chose not to. He set up her kids. His wife had made him promise when she died that he would not remarry and he did not. I think his love for Sally was deeper than just an affair.
@@janepoindexter4470 I believe there is some truth to that. She negotiated terms with Jefferson regarding her future children by him while she was in Paris. She had more power in that relationship than we give her credit for. And yes, each of her children by Jefferson learned a skill or trade that served them well. It ain't black or white in this saga.
There was an exception. In France both Sally and Thomas knew she could step away at any time due to French law, and she used that leverage to get him to promise to free her kids after they got back to US, if she stayed with him.
In regards to JS been a sexual predator, I think this term is more than appropriate. Here is a man who uses his influence and power, to actively prey on women, just as predators hunt for their next meal. This term is used as that is how we would describe him in today's terms. In his day, he would have been seen as a man who didn't have his actions questioned due to his status.
Praying on vulnerable women for his predatory personal sexual graduation at the expense of people he treated as a facial tissue. "A confidence man." By any other name.
Although I'm a never Mormon, I've long been fascinated by Mormon history. I got super lucky to find Fawn's book in a used bookstore when I was in Jr. High. That book made a big impression on me!
I found Brodie's account of Joseph Smith honest and frank yet still in some ways sympathetic in regards to his personality, intentionality, and humanity.
Excommunication works! It stigmatizes and ostracizes from family, friends, and from church-related institutions, and from participation as an alumnus of BYU, and even from participation in Utah politics.
Certainly this episode & # , is one that will be remembered & committed to memory. You knocked "the 🏀 ball out of the park" this tim. Fantastic episode. Thank you John.
There are countless stories of strong Mormon women. I wish this would get more attention so thank you for the focus here. Pioneer women had to carry on if their spouses died along the way to Utah; some right after childbirth. Holding things together while their spouses were with other wives or off on missions. My Aunt from Ogden who served in WWII. There should be a You Tube channel devoted to Great Mormon Women in history. Start with Mary Helen Van Orden Grant- a Mormon Annie Oakley (my Great GrandmotherX3 sister and niece of Isaac Haight)
I visited Monticello a few years ago. They have finally started to come around - less than a century later! They are trying to integrate Sally Hemings’ story into the tour. And when my (conservative Christian) Dad, who was on the tour with us, asked about Jefferson’s religiosity, the guide pointed out that Jefferson wasn’t exactly Christian; he was a Deist, a product of the Enlightenment.
My husband’s grandfather was the grandson of David O McKay. My mother in law who is very much a practicing Mormon, praises David and her McKay side highly. When my husband brought up Fawn, she had no idea who she was. Or at least pretended. She does the McKay house tours during the summer.
This interview got me interested in the life of Fawn Brodie which is out of print but I found it used. It would be great if someone created an audio book version of "No Man Knows my History"
I’m more than halfway through No Man Knows My History. With what I already knew and learned about church history, combined with what I’ve learned thus far from Ms. Brodie, I can honestly say the missing puzzle pieces of the Mormon Narrative are in place and I see the bigger picture now. Joseph Smith was a fraud.
I wish to thank Fawn Brody from the depths of my being. After reading her book I was finally able to cut that last string that kept me attached to Mormonism.
Reading No Man Knows My History was like I had spent my whole life with the wrong prescription of glasses and then finally I got a pair that actually worked. "Oh, that big blurry patch is actually a tree!"
Love your post. So very honest , sad that decent people have been doopted by a "Confidence Man." A term my grandmother would have heard a century ago. The term false pRophet is not how I view , the one who fooled people from the grave.
I can’t find Fawn McKay Brodie: A Biographers Life anywhere online. I read No Man Knows My History years ago. I grew up in N Ogden. My dad was LDS in his childhood but not as an adult. Mt dad had a Copy of No Man Knows My History. That’s where I first came across it. My dad left Mormonism about the time this book was published. I wish I could find Newell Bringhurst’s book!
Was the realization that Fawn Brodie would see the original iteration of the First Vision if permitted to view it by her uncle, the reason Joseph Fielding Smith cut it out of the diary?
@@mormonstories The prospect of Fawn discovering the first First Vision must have been the reason. Otherwise, why rip out pages of a diary kept in a locked safe?
I learned a evil little ditty at BYU Fawn M Brodie took an axe And gave the Prophet 40 whacks And when she saw what she had done She gave Tom Jefferson 41 Like most things I learned in Provo fun but mean
@@robmckay1552 Can’t help but notice your surname. If you don’t mind saying, are you any relation to Fawn Brodie? And would you care to share on which side of the divide you’ve landed?
The ditty I learned at BYU was: Sign says The World Is our Campus. Closer to truth to say The Campus is our World. I laughed and laughed even while faithful.
I spent most of 6 years in Provo and can't think of a single mean thing I learned there. Experience is largely individual. Actually don't think your ditty is mean, either. Do know there were 10 copies of her book on Joseph in the library, since I went looking for it once.
Well, being told Nixon should stay in office no matter what he'd done because his politics were serving God's will had its mean side. Or foolish more than mean.
On my channel I have begun uploading audio for each chapter of “No Man Knows My History” along with accompanying commentary on each chapter. It has been a fun project to revisit such an important piece of Mormon literature/history.
All the episodes about Fawn Brodie and the Tanners are my favorite. Some one should do a movie about her and her husband Benjamin Brodie.I would love to know how their 3 children fared. Brodie was employed by the RAND Corp in the 1960s and I worked for SDC an offshoot of RAND in the same time period. I knew nothing about Mormons then and everything I have learned recently is watching TH-cam and Mormon stories. It seems to me that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith are 2 peas in the same pod. One emulating the other. Does anyone else make that comparison? Thank you for providing such interesting insights. I have really enjoyed the series.
1:38:45 The irony of critiquing "the Brodie Book" for its literary and novelistic style to then come out decades later with that official multi-volume tripe "Saints", following Brigham Young's injunction to write history in a "narrative style" (what else?).
Jefferson's father in law slept with Sally's mother. Jefferson's relationship with Sally started in Paris when she was sixteen. Fanny Alger supposed to be Smith's first plural wife was living in the same house as Emma. As the female detectives in Silence of the Lambs concluded "we covet what we see".
I know little about Thomas Jefferson, but I was just beginning the *1619* *Project*, where I think I read that Sally Hemings was Thomas Jefferson’s wife’s half sister? It does seem not entirely unlike Mormon polygamy.
I love this woman. I do have an almost completely off topic question, however. Is McKay an especially Mormon name? I've never heard it pronounced like that and never as a Christian name. We have McKay (pronounced McKy to rhyme with sky) as a surname. It's only since I have started listening to Mormon Stories Podcast and Ex-Mo content that it has come to my attention.
Was David McKay’s white suit fetish, which continues with Russell Nelson, an open expression of Mormon leaders’ ongoing competition with the papacy as recently further expressed by the appearance of all the Q15 at the new Rome temple?
So in 1945 Fawn Brodie spoke publicly about JS ''translating'' the book of mormon by a stone in a hat and yet when I joined the church in the early 1970's I was taught that he translated it directly from gold plates and when I served my mission I was told to teach what I was taught [now known as lies]. All the while the church leadership knew it was all lies and the truth was always the stone in the hat. Had I been told the truth I never would have joined because the ''stone in the hat'' is so ridiculous. There never were any gold plates. I feel so stupid for believing that rubbish for decades. We have all been treated as fools by church leaders.
I think that it's much easier to believe that any religious book was just written by humans when you read it for the first time as an adult and a complete non-believer. I find that easy with every religious text that I read (and I've read a them from a few different religions now) that I wasn't raised in but for the Bible (because I was raised Protestant) it took reading/ listening to what a lot of scholars had to say about its creation to be able to start to see it.
Sooo I have a connection to her. Even though I'm ex Jdub I actually have Mormon connections throuh my great grandmother and other things, namely my dad's ex girlfriend was friends with Fawn. LOL. So I knew things about Mormons I thought were common knowledge among Mormons, but it turns out that was not common knowledge.
The question of why the everyday Mormon was unaware is maybe because as my experience happened.spend a year getting worthy. Go through the temple and make big promises. Also being told to stay away from anti Mormon material. All this happening as we move into adulthood.
David O' McKay not ever speaking to his niece again- hum - as you say not Christ-like Matthew 5:43-45: ' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."
Yes, that’s insane to think of someone cutting off contact with their family member in pursuit of protecting another man’s legacy that gives him no benefit.
Does Dr. Bringhurst still reside in the greater Sacramento metropolitan area? I live in Sacramento; I’d like to buy him dinner in the not too distant future.
About two years before my mission, I started taking a college US History to 1870 course. Part of the course was a final project to produce a some-page paper on a topic in US History from the period. We had to announce our chosen topic in the second lecture. Being a bit of a Mormon nerd, I said, "I want to do my project on the persecutions of the Mormon pioneers from 1838-1847." I'll never forget the lecturer's response, because it, though perhaps well-intentioned, was one of the most toxic things for my faith deconstruction apart from coming across the cartoon from the God Makers. He asked, "Are you a Mormon?" "Yes," I answered. "I require all my Mormon students who do this topic to read No Man Knows My History." I found that, and still find, that comment to be incredibly inappropriate. If he had asked me to stick around after class for some suggested sources, I probably would have ended up reading No Man Knows My History and deconstructing my faith much sooner (I was on a razor's edge at the time anyway). Instead, I was trapped in the shame cycles of Mormon orthodoxy for another decade, in part, because of how that teacher broached the subject.
Defensiveness is so easily assumed if someone attacks our foundation. I find, as a Catholic, that those types of remarks make me think that the attacker just doesn't understand the morality and ethics I learned through my faith. Yet, I feel that sometimes my emotional is overruling my reasoning. I am not really listening to people. Listening requires a consideration *without being drawn into emotionality) of what the person is actually saying. I am still learning this at an older age. When listening, take out your emotions and hear the speaker for what is being said. You'll get further in many conversations and this may lead to greater empathy on your part too.
Yes, I have been questioning my own original religion for decades. I find the groups of people who lead me into better understanding of the consciousness of God. This moves me forward toward improved consciousness.
@@mariannepolkowski-burns2627 I have long since moved past those positions and my approach to difficult conversations has matured. I still believe that the teacher was inappropriate and irresponsible with the way he approached that situation. It would be like if you wanted to explore some Catholic history in the early 16th century, and an instructor insisted you read a specific book about Rodrigo Borgia because of your Catholic background. Perhaps you should read that book about Rodrigo Borgia, but that should be based on it being good information for your hypothetical project, not because of your background in Catholicism. I suppose he may have meant well. I'm even willing to assume that he did mean well. But the effect was harmful.
@@perryekimae I am not so sure he meant well. The instructor threw out the comment like a dagger. I’m sorry he did that to you. The sexual scandals of the Catholic Church are the same way. Can you imagine the daggers thrown toward me , and deserved to be thrown. Egads! I’ve long since adopted a very, very liberal Catholic belief system, discarding many conservatives in the clergy and laity. I guess I try to listen, but many people only know about Catholic issues from the newspapers (my husband). The depth is not there. I try to listen better because I realizes that I can’t change anymore and at my senior age I can put it together by myself and feel satisfied.
@@perryekimae I meant I can’t change anyone. I have a belief system that is liberal and open minded. Richard Rohr helped, so I can see the daggers 🗡 and deal with them, I guess.
I don't necessarily believe being rebellious is a bad thing. So many things we take for granted today is because people rebelled and said no. So much for the Mormon Church preaching charity which they say is unconditional love. But that is not what they practice. Unless you are a good little Mormon that does not apply.
From the first time the book was published by Brodie a lot of new information came out. She discussed the Book of Abraham using the debate from those group of Egyptologists (Breasted etc) who attacked Smith's interpretatiion of the facsimiles. Then in 1967 the newly found papyri were interpreted and commented on by scholars again being a challenge for some on the authenticity of the Book of Abraham. Brodie originally brought up the 1826 trial using material aready published. Nibley in the mythmakers attacked it. Meanwhile later Wesley P Walters found documents refering to Joseph Smith -The Glass Looker which showed the trial took place. One ended up depending in which camp you were that Smith was found not guilty, or allowed to escape or took leg bail. Brodie had a list of Smith's plural wives. Since then a lot more research has gone on with authors Mormon Enigma is the bestselling biography of Emma Hale Smith, wife of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith ( Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery), In Sacred Lonliness and Brian Hales three volume work. .
BIG WOWS, awesome story here... i may get around to reading NMKMH soon and this is a very good intro... i was LDS for 30 years and resigned when I came out 30 years ago. I had no problems with JS, but had put him on a denominational shelf with other prophetic founders of faiths (Anne Lee, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, William Miller, George Fox, Charles T. Russell, Fox sisters, etc.) I moved on to new agey things like Unity, where you believe whatever you like that works for you. Wouldn't a wider Mormonism be nice, where everyone is welcome and all beliefs are welcome and no exes happen for daring to think differently. We can dream of that at least... maybe sort of a Rainbow Mormonism Community, like a hippie communal kind of community... isn't that what the United Order ideals could be like for today when everyone seems to be struggling to make ends meet and maintain a faith in a good and happy system where all are equal and all are cared for... Dream on for sure... :)
During the early rise of Christianity in ancient Rome, this is what the Gnostics taught - there are many paths to achieving Christ consciousness. Unfortunately, their teachings were declared heretic and wiped out; replaced with the unifying religion of the Roman Church of the Papacy.
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I read Fawn Brodie’s courageous book and left the church 3 days later! I named my son Brodie after her. I love her. I wish she only knew how many of us good women she saved! Thank you John - Carah -and Newell for helping us to bring to life this fabulous woman and fellow truth teller back to life and another chance to pay homage to her and her work.
It's never too late come back Flds
I remember her name being mentioned when I was a child. She was deeply despised and ill will was prayed against her. Reading her book was a crime.
Where can I get this book? Is there anywhere cheap online? I’m tight on money and confused as ever. I’m surrounded by so much delusion and denial and all I want is truth ugh.
@@mr.teezeeAmazon
A longtime listener, don't know how I missed this epic episode. Notable that this is my first ever comment. Blown away by the brilliance, balance, depth and breadth of Newell's scholarship. Mere words fail me. Simply amazing!
As John says, he's a treasure. Deep gratitude to Newell, John and Carah.
(Feel free to edit)
Same here, exactly. I love the guy's (Newell's) obvious scholarly intelligence and integrity, but also his delightful sense of humor is another huge plus for me... yup, a treasure! ❤
Thank you, Mormon Stories and Dr. Dehlin for healing my mind and soul today! I feel less depressed and have hope for my future without the LDS church. Thank you so much, friends! ((hug))
It's hard losing your community and friends and family because you had the courage to follow the truth. But we as ex-Mos are all here for you and want you to know that you're not alone and you did the right thing.
Your non-LDS path can be very good. Mine was rocky at first but less so every year that passed. See what you on your own care to do to have a relationship with the Infinite. There are
1000 paths to self-understanding and integrity and virtue.
Love Mormon stories, it has taught me a lot!! Which I never even knew!! Like tbom is a work of fiction!!! I'm freaking out!!! I'm born under the covenant and this really rocks my world!! This is a great Mormon story!
9 years ago, while questioning/studying the history of the Mormon church, I was introduced to “No Man Knows My History”, which I read cover to cover in short order, it was the pivotal study which allowed me to write me resignation letter and leave the LDS church. I absolutely love this discussion into the personal life/history of the book. Thanks to the three of you for the discussion!!
This was a WONERFUL interview! I actually hung on to each word hearing about Fawn Brodie, as I did with her words about Joseph Smith. It's time to re-read .No Man...".
Never been Mormon, but this was so fascinating. I appreciate that Newell did his level best to be as fair as possible in his assessments and has such a wealth of knowledge on the subject.
I will never forget the day I read NMKMH.
My respect for Fawn’s intelligence and courage still completely blows me away.
I’m excited to read Newell’s books!
Thank you 🙏
Newell is such a treasure. I vote to have him back with more insight into the complex world of LDS. I am enamored of Fawn Brodie and am going to order her book.
No Man Knows My History and Insiders View of Mormonism by Grant Palmer. These two books made me finally realize the church wasn’t what it proclaims to be. I sent in my resignation shortly thereafter and never looked back.
You just lack faith I mean got smart lol
Your Life's experience is an inspiration to me , as I'm sure to others. Both of you , have "knocked the ball 🏈 out of the park." On this one. Thank you very much !
This was a blast. Trully enjoyed this interview. Fawn Brodie was such an inspirational woman and I have a huge respect for her work and research! Her book "No Man Knows My History" is brilliant. Still can't comprehend how she already pretty much uncovered all the issues with J.Smith and mormonism in 1940s!
Looking forward to future interviews with Newell!
This interview was so good!!! I’m reading the book for the first time but already can see why she really is the pioneer of accurate church history.
Thank God for Newell Bringhurst who avoids black and white thinking, is a careful historian, and can see and explore nuance without prejudice.
My mother was a nonbeliever from Mormon ancestry and had many active family members. When she decided to stop cancer treatment, she asked three of her grandsons for a blessing before she went on Hospice. I believe she thought it was comforting to her and her grandsons. Being terminally ill did not change her feelings about the church.
Fun story, my great aunt was married to LaMar Petersen who wrote Hearts Made Glad. My mother and father knew him very well. He told my mother that he got called into David O McKay’s office where he was told not to publish it. He said but it’s all true. David O McKay told him Yeah but people can’t handle it. He published it anyway and got excommunicated.
he got his freedom from the cult :)
LaMar Peterson brought Hearts Made Glad into our health food store in Provo about 1975 and said what you say, and I bought a copy and read every word. I was a faithful educated Mormon and just saw that drinking had been important before it was banned. That they kicked him out caused me more disaffection than the book's booze story, but I stayed with it for about ten more years. Thanks for mentioning it.
What’s Hearts Made Glad about that O’McKay agreed was correct??
@@mr.teezee It's the story of drinking alcohol quite a bit among church leaders including Brother Joseph, long before it was banned. Sometimes they got good and plastered.
@alanras370 I once read part of a journal written by the daughter of my Mormon pioneer ancestor. She wrote about them crossing a river and afterward the men were cold from standing in the river, so they drank liquor to warm them up. She said it was the first time she had seen her father actually tipsy. I would assume that he had drunk alcohol before since she did not mention that it was the first time he had drunk it, only that it was the first time she saw him tipsy. I remember being very surprised that they were drinking alcohol. Obviously, they had it with them, so it must have been accepted at the time.
I have this book and applauded her for standing up aginst all the religious opposition ,speaking truth and asking those 🙊🙉hush hush questions. She's a great lady to me .Thank u so much for the video ,I've been waiting to hear this 😊
Fantastic episode. Newell had an excellent analysis and gives a nice, rounded perspective
I really appreciate the show notes. I have so much reading to do!
My Wife read Fawn’s book to me while we drove from SLC to Dallas/Plano Tx during our exit from the LDS Corporation early March 2018. March 23, we resigned! Fabulous Book!
Can I send couple missionaries over? Knock knock hi would you be interested in hearing about Mormonism and fact you can have multiple wives? Dang it get in here tell me more
She must be a fast, and persistent reader.
Congratulations , go were the evidence takes you.
Fawn Brodie, a woman so ahead of her time in many areas. She will always be a legend to those seeking to know the truth. Thanks for this presentation it was epic…👌🏽
I agree wholeheartedly. I am not a Mormon but am fascinated by her courage and intellect. Fawn's gradual awakening showed she was able to instinctually and gradually move forward to find the truth. Considering her background, she had great courage.
@@mariannepolkowski-burns2627 She paid a price for her integrity, as most with this character trait will attest. Many were the beneficiaries of her principles….👏🏾
Having served a 2 year mission for the LDS church in New Zealand completed in 1981. I had come out of the Mormon Church in that same year. In regards to Fawn McKay-Brodie, I had read her book No Man Knows my History back in 1978 and it really shook me. It prepared me for 1981 where many Mormons in NZ had left the church.
Have you heard Micah Wilder’s testimony?
“Jesus is Enough “ site on internet. Music ministry of several former Mormon missionaries and former members.
@@Cjw317 no, but i will google it
This is one of the best podcasts you have shown. It gave me an appreciation of Fawn Brodie. I read the book many years ago and it has always been important to me. Thank you.
I grew up in the Bay Area in the 60s. Stokley Carmichael and Eldridge Cleaver and others were always in the news when I was in high school In the 1980s I attended a cottage meeting in Orem that Eldridge Cleaver spoke at. It was amazing to hear him. I will be looking forward to your book Newell. I am sure it will be most intriguing.
This is fascinating. Prior to when I finally gave myself permission to read her book (No Man Knows My History), I was fully expecting it to be an angry, anti-mormon book, full of lies, as this is how lds leaders presented it. I was shocked to find out that it was, for the most part, just straight history. Now, I'm finding out that her mentor counseled her to refrain from injecting her own feelings about her subject. It makes complete sense that she felt just as shocked and betrayed as the rest of us. To her credit, the book is a remarkable achievement of historical recording, that withstands the test of time.
Betrayal; my, foot.
I, read parts of her book.
To me, it was very well written.
Seemed boring.
The only Betrayal was not the
Church; but, Betrayal to herself..
.
Not, well written( I, mean)....
It was a surprisingly interesting read for me.
@@jodystimm2098
Jehovah's Witnesses,Seventh Day Adventists , Mormons.
All came out of the same religious backdrop in America.
Nice to know all us regular Christians are going to hell.
As a never-mo historian by training, I ran out and bought a copy of Brodie’s book. And it is thoroughly history with footnotes like crazy. Very careful piece of research. Wonderful writing
One of your best episodes. Thanks Newell Bringhurst.. I have really loved the historical episodes with people like John Hamer, Brent Metcalf, Matt Harris, Dan Vogel and so forth.
Love the Biographical episodes, as well as the historical ones. I think Fawn Brodie was one of the most extrodinary. What a brave and smart woman!
Very brave
What a juggernaut of an episode. Still digesting. Amazing work John and team!
I'm Jewish and live in London. But in 1966-67 I was a young boy living in Los Angeles, where my father taught at UCLA. I remember the Brodies. They were his colleagues. Fawn Brodie was a nice lady - and a legendary scholar, known to have created a sensation with her Smith book years earlier. They lived in Pacific Palisades. We lived in Westwood - in a house owned by a senior LDS official at the Santa Monica Blvd Temple. Mormonism, all around my family, both fascinated and repelled us.
I’d love to hear why it repelled you.
@@mormonstories I'm intrigued - you don't bother to ask what fascinated us? OK. Well, what aspects of Mormonism did my agnostic, egalitarian, universalist Jewish parents find unsympathetic? Quite a few things. The excommunication of Mrs Brodie! And all processes of censure and exclusion - which struck them as brutal and medieval. I also recall that they were ... alienated, baffled, by the prohibition on coffee, tea and alcohol.
@@mormonstories But let me say that at the same time we were all in awe of the fact that a truly venerable, traditional Utah LDS milieu had produced none other than Fawn Brodie herself. It was as though the purity and depth of her Mormon background somehow granted her the unique enquiring mind and spirit which led her to write the Smith biography - and fall in love with her Jewish husband Bernard Brodie!
Mormons think they are Hebrews in some strange way. Believe or are taught indians of North America are one lost ten tribes. DNA says no false
I asked a Calif saleswoman who had moved to Utah, What did you know about Mormons before moving here? "Only that I wanted to avoid them," she grinned.
Being called rebellious eventually became a compliment to me. THINK FOR YOURSELF AND QUESTION EVERYTHING!!
This would have to be the most important episode of Mormon stories - Deal with major biographies of Joseph Smith.
I have been binge watching and listening for two weeks. This video is superb. Interesting, informative, validity, and so well done. Thank you John, Newell, and Cara. I want more! I cannot wait to read the book, but I wish I could have known Fawn Brodie. Oh! your time line John...Fawn was excommunicated right around by birthday June 9th, 1946. That HAD to be a very important bench mark for my Smiths as I am a Smith girl by birth! Hahaha
When I was 20 , I dated j fielding smith's , either grand or great grand daughter. This more than likely would have been a great mistake , had I pursued ferther.
Great Show thank you I brought 3 books as a result
I love the historian shade. It brings me back to my college days, the humble "well...I... don't really agree with him..." And then proceeds to eviscerate the other historian's argument, writing and research. *Chef's kiss
So much in my mind of upbringing. Dad devout southern Utah heritage and mom HATING the church....at 75 still lingers in my persona...its all so intense.....
Someone needs to do audible version of no man knows my History! Thanks for the discussion, it was really interesting
Love that you have brought this amazing story about this courageous, determined woman❤️
Such a great interview! I just finished her book. Loved it.
Awesome video! Thank you! Love this episode about Brodie! She's literally inspiring especially the work that she did considering she did it many decades ago way before the internet! Very grateful so much to live in an age I could easily & freely know about this. THank you!
Wow. Compelling testimony. I want to read Fawn's book!
Fawn Brodie saved me from the Mormon madness. Read that book, realized what a complete fraud Joseph Smith was, and never looked back. Loved her Jefferson biography as well, although he - unlike Smith - had so many redeeming qualities, as Fawn so eloquently described.
Absolutely fascinating episode. Thanks to all. Carah, you're a beauty just like Fawn!
Fascinating episode. I feel like I just discovered a new National treasure in Fawn Brody. Thank you for your work. It's great to see you so excited and I appreciate your deep respect for the contributions of the women.
I was in Huntsville Canyon this past summer. My family came there to that area around 1851. My uncle Keith drowned in the pool at the club down the canyon from there as a ten year old. There was a fire around Huntsville the day after I was up there in late July. I always remember President McKay when I was growing up and his face on family home evening book that we followed.
so glad I am not in the cult anymore.
It’s hilarious thinking about it. Like how could anyone believe this crap 💩
Free tip (my previous post does not seem to have gone through!): Newell's article on the vain two-faced seer David O. (he reportedly stopped the excommunication of Sterling McMurrin of the U, but obviously let the razor drop on Brodie, his own blood!) can be found for free in the kindle sample of the book "Dimensions of Faith", edited by Stephen C. Taysom.
I believe it is often the will of the Greater Wisdom for us to be separated from associations like Mormondom. Every mortal thing we count on, churches and faith communities included, are limited, finite, will change, weaken, end. True friendship will not, no matter what difference of faith there may be.
In the LDS Church authority trumps truth.
And lately in some LDS wards Trump trumps authority
In Utah Mormonism, authority is the only truth, and obedience the only sacrament.
Trump trumps Biden obviously
Every cult is the same in that regard.
How nice to see Paul Toscano posting here. You and I went for a two-hour walk talk about 1976 in Provo while still both, I take it, in the faith. I found a different path up the Holy Mountain, the path of Paramhansa Yogananda. I recall your talking of the Law of Compensation, but don't remember what you said. The divine wants me to fully forgive my Mormon
people for being what they only know how to be.
This was such a small part of the interview, and please know that I am a *huge* fan of Mormon stories, but when referring to Thomas Jefferson and Sally, can we not call it a relationship?
She was his slave...she had no ability to consent or even leave his residence.
When Thomas Jefferson freed Sally she did not leave. She could have left in Paris and chose not to. He set up her kids. His wife had made him promise when she died that he would not remarry and he did not. I think his love for Sally was deeper than just an affair.
@@janepoindexter4470 I believe there is some truth to that. She negotiated terms with Jefferson regarding her future children by him while she was in Paris. She had more power in that relationship than we give her credit for. And yes, each of her children by Jefferson learned a skill or trade that served them well. It ain't black or white in this saga.
There was an exception. In France both Sally and Thomas knew she could step away at any time due to French law, and she used that leverage to get him to promise to free her kids after they got back to US, if she stayed with him.
In regards to JS been a sexual predator, I think this term is more than appropriate. Here is a man who uses his influence and power, to actively prey on women, just as predators hunt for their next meal. This term is used as that is how we would describe him in today's terms. In his day, he would have been seen as a man who didn't have his actions questioned due to his status.
Look at R Kelly; Joseph was similar in certain ways
Praying on vulnerable women for his predatory personal sexual graduation at the expense of people he treated as a facial tissue. "A confidence man." By any other name.
Although I'm a never Mormon, I've long been fascinated by Mormon history. I got super lucky to find Fawn's book in a used bookstore when I was in Jr. High. That book made a big impression on me!
I was in the BYU bookstore when they were giving Eldridge Cleaver a grand tour of the school. He passed within two feet of me.
I found Brodie's account of Joseph Smith honest and frank yet still in some ways sympathetic in regards to his personality, intentionality, and humanity.
Excommunication works! It stigmatizes and ostracizes from family, friends, and from church-related institutions, and from participation as an alumnus of BYU, and even from participation in Utah politics.
The scarlet "E".
Excommunicated from club ooo no. Like being kicked out country club because you peed in pool Opposite of Jesus he wants those ruff people
Mormonism creates phobias not honest or right
Move to Oregon, New Mexico, Ensenada, BC?
This story is amazing and extremely interesting! And I'm not even Mormon. My consciousness of my own religion has been enhanced. I may get this book.
Outstanding episode!
Certainly this episode & # , is one that will be remembered & committed to memory. You knocked "the 🏀 ball out of the park" this tim. Fantastic episode. Thank you John.
There are countless stories of strong Mormon women. I wish this would get more attention so thank you for the focus here. Pioneer women had to carry on if their spouses died along the way to Utah; some right after childbirth. Holding things together while their spouses were with other wives or off on missions. My Aunt from Ogden who served in WWII.
There should be a You Tube channel devoted to Great Mormon Women in history. Start with Mary Helen Van Orden Grant- a Mormon Annie Oakley (my Great GrandmotherX3 sister and niece of Isaac Haight)
This was excellent. Good work.
I visited Monticello a few years ago. They have finally started to come around - less than a century later! They are trying to integrate Sally Hemings’ story into the tour. And when my (conservative Christian) Dad, who was on the tour with us, asked about Jefferson’s religiosity, the guide pointed out that Jefferson wasn’t exactly Christian; he was a Deist, a product of the Enlightenment.
When I went in the early 2000's they told us about the fathering of the slaves.
Loved that book. Learned so much!
May God Bless her in struggles against the pure evil that is cultism in any form.
💗Fantastic topic!
I came here from Netflix Murder among Mormons.
Mormonism is very vulnerable to con artists.
My husband’s grandfather was the grandson of David O McKay. My mother in law who is very much a practicing Mormon, praises David and her McKay side highly. When my husband brought up Fawn, she had no idea who she was. Or at least pretended. She does the McKay house tours during the summer.
This interview got me interested in the life of Fawn Brodie which is out of print but I found it used. It would be great if someone created an audio book version of "No Man Knows my History"
Truth always wins...
I’m more than halfway through No Man Knows My History. With what I already knew and learned about church history, combined with what I’ve learned thus far from Ms. Brodie, I can honestly say the missing puzzle pieces of the Mormon Narrative are in place and I see the bigger picture now. Joseph Smith was a fraud.
I wish to thank Fawn Brody from the depths of my being. After reading her book I was finally able to cut that last string that kept me attached to Mormonism.
Reading No Man Knows My History was like I had spent my whole life with the wrong prescription of glasses and then finally I got a pair that actually worked. "Oh, that big blurry patch is actually a tree!"
Der that's obvious ricks in hat?
More like you got plyers from store pull out fishing line
Love your post. So very honest , sad that decent people have been doopted by a "Confidence Man." A term my grandmother would have heard a century ago. The term false pRophet is not how I view , the one who fooled people from the grave.
We need an audiobook of No Man Knows My History on you tube as soon as possible please.
Thanks for remembering my quip!
Excellent!
I can’t find Fawn McKay Brodie: A Biographers Life anywhere online. I read No Man Knows My History years ago. I grew up in N Ogden. My dad was LDS in his childhood but not as an adult. Mt dad had a Copy of No Man Knows My History. That’s where I first came across it. My dad left Mormonism about the time this book was published. I wish I could find Newell Bringhurst’s book!
Sounds like you dodged a bullet. Your dad was a good man for questioning and reading the book and ultimately having the courage to leave.
3 minutes of searching a year after your post showed copies of Newell's book for $50 on Amazon and for $30 on ebay
@@alanras370 thanks. I did find one and bought it.
Was the realization that Fawn Brodie would see the original iteration of the First Vision if permitted to view it by her uncle, the reason Joseph Fielding Smith cut it out of the diary?
Great question.
@@mormonstories The prospect of Fawn discovering the first First Vision must have been the reason. Otherwise, why rip out pages of a diary kept in a locked safe?
Thanks!
Tbh part of the reason I watch this podcast as a never Mormon is Carah.
Fantastic Interview ! Hail to the Truth Tellers ! I am Binge Watching these amazing Truther interviews ! Dr. Ramani is also fantastic on Narcissism !
I learned a evil little ditty at BYU
Fawn M Brodie took an axe
And gave the Prophet 40 whacks
And when she saw what she had done
She gave Tom Jefferson 41
Like most things I learned in Provo fun but mean
funny, i did laugh.
@@robmckay1552 Can’t help but notice your surname. If you don’t mind saying, are you any relation to Fawn Brodie? And would you care to share on which side of the divide you’ve landed?
The ditty I learned at BYU was: Sign says The World Is our Campus. Closer to truth to say The Campus is our World. I laughed and laughed even while faithful.
I spent most of 6 years in Provo and can't think of a single mean thing I learned there. Experience is largely individual. Actually don't think your ditty is mean, either. Do know there were 10 copies of her book on Joseph in the library, since I went looking for it once.
Well, being told Nixon should stay in office no matter what he'd done because his politics were serving God's will had its mean side. Or foolish more than mean.
On my channel I have begun uploading audio for each chapter of “No Man Knows My History” along with accompanying commentary on each chapter. It has been a fun project to revisit such an important piece of Mormon literature/history.
Pondering plumb, I appreciate it! I’ve been listening
@ChitChat and Tea with Amanda Marie glad you’re enjoying it. Cheers!
All the episodes about Fawn Brodie and the Tanners are my favorite. Some one should do a movie about her and her husband Benjamin Brodie.I would love to know how their 3 children fared. Brodie was employed by the RAND Corp in the 1960s and I worked for SDC an offshoot of RAND in the same time period. I knew nothing about Mormons then and everything I have learned recently is watching TH-cam and Mormon stories. It seems to me that Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith are 2 peas in the same pod. One emulating the other. Does anyone else make that comparison? Thank you for providing such interesting insights. I have really enjoyed the series.
1:38:45 The irony of critiquing "the Brodie Book" for its literary and novelistic style to then come out decades later with that official multi-volume tripe "Saints", following Brigham Young's injunction to write history in a "narrative style" (what else?).
Please ask Newell to compare briefly Fawn Brody’s biography of Jefferson with Annette Gordon-Reed’s Jefferson.
Jefferson's father in law slept with Sally's mother. Jefferson's relationship with Sally started in Paris when she was sixteen. Fanny Alger supposed to be Smith's first plural wife was living in the same house as Emma. As the female detectives in Silence of the Lambs concluded "we covet what we see".
I know little about Thomas Jefferson, but I was just beginning the *1619* *Project*, where I think I read that Sally Hemings was Thomas Jefferson’s wife’s half sister? It does seem not entirely unlike Mormon polygamy.
I love this woman. I do have an almost completely off topic question, however. Is McKay an especially Mormon name? I've never heard it pronounced like that and never as a Christian name. We have McKay (pronounced McKy to rhyme with sky) as a surname. It's only since I have started listening to Mormon Stories Podcast and Ex-Mo content that it has come to my attention.
Was David McKay’s white suit fetish, which continues with Russell Nelson, an open expression of Mormon leaders’ ongoing competition with the papacy as recently further expressed by the appearance of all the Q15 at the new Rome temple?
Their names look so “normal” without the middle initials
UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA PRESS! That's my Alma Mater!
So in 1945 Fawn Brodie spoke publicly about JS ''translating'' the book of mormon by a stone in a hat and yet when I joined the church in the early 1970's I was taught that he translated it directly from gold plates and when I served my mission I was told to teach what I was taught [now known as lies]. All the while the church leadership knew it was all lies and the truth was always the stone in the hat. Had I been told the truth I never would have joined because the ''stone in the hat'' is so ridiculous. There never were any gold plates. I feel so stupid for believing that rubbish for decades. We have all been treated as fools by church leaders.
Did you think it was suspect when you were taught the plates went back to heaven?
I think that it's much easier to believe that any religious book was just written by humans when you read it for the first time as an adult and a complete non-believer. I find that easy with every religious text that I read (and I've read a them from a few different religions now) that I wasn't raised in but for the Bible (because I was raised Protestant) it took reading/ listening to what a lot of scholars had to say about its creation to be able to start to see it.
Sooo I have a connection to her. Even though I'm ex Jdub I actually have Mormon connections throuh my great grandmother and other things, namely my dad's ex girlfriend was friends with Fawn. LOL. So I knew things about Mormons I thought were common knowledge among Mormons, but it turns out that was not common knowledge.
That’s so cool!!!
Attempting to write truth is a horrible addiction.
Fawn Brodie -“I am No Man!”
Rather more like Colonel Sanders than a Mark Twain figure. 😉
The question of why the everyday Mormon was unaware is maybe because as my experience happened.spend a year getting worthy. Go through the temple and make big promises. Also being told to stay away from anti Mormon material. All this happening as we move into adulthood.
I'd like to know Mormon strategy re: all the temple building with the church decline
Search on this very channel "New Temples Veil Mormonism's Decline." Very enlightening episode.
David O' McKay not ever speaking to his niece again- hum - as you say not Christ-like Matthew 5:43-45:
' But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven."
Yes, that’s insane to think of someone cutting off contact with their family member in pursuit of protecting another man’s legacy that gives him no benefit.
Does Dr. Bringhurst still reside in the greater Sacramento metropolitan area? I live in Sacramento; I’d like to buy him dinner in the not too distant future.
About two years before my mission, I started taking a college US History to 1870 course. Part of the course was a final project to produce a some-page paper on a topic in US History from the period.
We had to announce our chosen topic in the second lecture. Being a bit of a Mormon nerd, I said, "I want to do my project on the persecutions of the Mormon pioneers from 1838-1847."
I'll never forget the lecturer's response, because it, though perhaps well-intentioned, was one of the most toxic things for my faith deconstruction apart from coming across the cartoon from the God Makers. He asked, "Are you a Mormon?"
"Yes," I answered.
"I require all my Mormon students who do this topic to read No Man Knows My History."
I found that, and still find, that comment to be incredibly inappropriate. If he had asked me to stick around after class for some suggested sources, I probably would have ended up reading No Man Knows My History and deconstructing my faith much sooner (I was on a razor's edge at the time anyway). Instead, I was trapped in the shame cycles of Mormon orthodoxy for another decade, in part, because of how that teacher broached the subject.
Defensiveness is so easily assumed if someone attacks our foundation. I find, as a Catholic, that those types of remarks make me think that the attacker just doesn't understand the morality and ethics I learned through my faith. Yet, I feel that sometimes my emotional is overruling my reasoning. I am not really listening to people. Listening requires a consideration *without being drawn into emotionality) of what the person is actually saying. I am still learning this at an older age. When listening, take out your emotions and hear the speaker for what is being said. You'll get further in many conversations and this may lead to greater empathy on your part too.
Yes, I have been questioning my own original religion for decades. I find the groups of people who lead me into better understanding of the consciousness of God. This moves me forward toward improved consciousness.
@@mariannepolkowski-burns2627 I have long since moved past those positions and my approach to difficult conversations has matured. I still believe that the teacher was inappropriate and irresponsible with the way he approached that situation. It would be like if you wanted to explore some Catholic history in the early 16th century, and an instructor insisted you read a specific book about Rodrigo Borgia because of your Catholic background. Perhaps you should read that book about Rodrigo Borgia, but that should be based on it being good information for your hypothetical project, not because of your background in Catholicism.
I suppose he may have meant well. I'm even willing to assume that he did mean well. But the effect was harmful.
@@perryekimae I am not so sure he meant well. The instructor threw out the comment like a dagger. I’m sorry he did that to you.
The sexual scandals of the Catholic Church are the same way. Can you imagine the daggers thrown toward me , and deserved to be thrown. Egads! I’ve long since adopted a very, very liberal Catholic belief system, discarding many conservatives in the clergy and laity. I guess I try to listen, but many people only know about Catholic issues from the newspapers (my husband). The depth is not there. I try to listen better because I realizes that I can’t change anymore and at my senior age I can put it together by myself and feel satisfied.
@@perryekimae I meant I can’t change anyone. I have a belief system that is liberal and open minded. Richard Rohr helped, so I can see the daggers 🗡 and deal with them, I guess.
I don't necessarily believe being rebellious is a bad thing. So many things we take for granted today is because people rebelled and said no. So much for the Mormon Church preaching charity which they say is unconditional love. But that is not what they practice. Unless you are a good little Mormon that does not apply.
@Dr.John Dehlin
I agree with John I would MOST DEFINITELY refer to Joseph Smith as a sexual predator.
for those who haved been excommunicated i salute you.
have
From the first time the book was published by Brodie a lot of new information came out. She discussed the Book of Abraham using the debate from those group of Egyptologists (Breasted etc) who attacked Smith's interpretatiion of the facsimiles. Then in 1967 the newly found papyri were interpreted and commented on by scholars again being a challenge for some on the authenticity of the Book of Abraham. Brodie originally brought up the 1826 trial using material aready published. Nibley in the mythmakers attacked it. Meanwhile later Wesley P Walters found documents refering to Joseph Smith -The Glass Looker which showed the trial took place. One ended up depending in which camp you were that Smith was found not guilty, or allowed to escape or took leg bail. Brodie had a list of Smith's plural wives. Since then a lot more research has gone on with authors Mormon Enigma is the bestselling biography of Emma Hale Smith, wife of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith ( Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippetts Avery), In Sacred Lonliness and Brian Hales three volume work. .
I think McKay's white suits paralleled the Pope's white vestments.
BIG WOWS, awesome story here... i may get around to reading NMKMH soon and this is a very good intro... i was LDS for 30 years and resigned when I came out 30 years ago. I had no problems with JS, but had put him on a denominational shelf with other prophetic founders of faiths (Anne Lee, Mary Baker Eddy, Ellen G. White, William Miller, George Fox, Charles T. Russell, Fox sisters, etc.) I moved on to new agey things like Unity, where you believe whatever you like that works for you. Wouldn't a wider Mormonism be nice, where everyone is welcome and all beliefs are welcome and no exes happen for daring to think differently. We can dream of that at least... maybe sort of a Rainbow Mormonism Community, like a hippie communal kind of community... isn't that what the United Order ideals could be like for today when everyone seems to be struggling to make ends meet and maintain a faith in a good and happy system where all are equal and all are cared for... Dream on for sure... :)
During the early rise of Christianity in ancient Rome, this is what the Gnostics taught - there are many paths to achieving Christ consciousness. Unfortunately, their teachings were declared heretic and wiped out; replaced with the unifying religion of the Roman Church of the Papacy.
Rainbow Mormonism sounds amazing. And you're spot on that THAT was the vision for the United Order. How ironic.
Can I buy “No man knows my history” at Deseret book?
Nope
Amazon
I wish the church stopped torturing people that challenge them
If you do share the picture! Sadly the truth doesn’t stretch to the truth…..
I got mine through Amazon.