The works of renowned pessimists such as Schopenhauer and Mainlander are often discussed when examining the realm of pessimistic philosophy. But, the 20th-century Norwegian philosopher, Peter Wessel Zapffe, adds a unique take on the melancholic perspective. He's remarkable in his own right, having switched from a law graduate to mountain climber. His most popular writing, "The Last Messiah", advocates for how our heightened consciousness is both a blessing and a burden. It renders us particularly aware of the grim facts of life - death and our lack of significance in the grand scheme of things.
Here in Sweden we don't have any pessimistic philosophers, only poets. I'm glad that our brothers in the west at least have one and a very great man as well.
The second part of Socrates famous saying was lost. The complete text is this: "The unexamined life is not worth living. The examined life is even worse."
I just stumbled on philosophytoons today, and I love it. You are making me think about my own life and using history to back it up. Bravo! I'll stay tuned for more cool stuff
Love this! This made me think of our ego. The ego is what keeping us distracted from the reality of death and I think it contains within it all the distractions you mention here. That’s what the yogis practice: letting go of the distractions to realize the true Self , be ok with death, and see the truth 😌✨
You might not realize but animal is not a mere survival, they experience their own 'being' too although it is not quite the same as human 'being-ness' or 'presence-in-the-world', animal consciousness 'world-involvement' have share characteristic of human 'world-involvement' such as spatiality or dwelling
I agree with the existence of the defense mechanisms this thinker provided , althought from seeing someone audio-reading the essay. I didn't understand the essay itself, only the descriptions of the philosopher ideas on wikipedia and on your channel. But personally, as someone who has become interested in Buddhism and Spirituality and Meditation, some spiritual thinkers and gurus gave thoughts to head that made me have a little kinda-disagreement" with the way these 'nihilistic'/pessimistic philosophers seem to view the world(or at least what I know of them, since I haven't read them per se): - It seems that Peter or other nihilistic and existentialist philosophers describe human consciouness and personal existence too much as something that is a "tragic being that creates meaning in a meaningless universe. This kind of thought may actually be accurate, but there is a fundamental thing here: It seems like some kind of separation between "us", and the "objective universe", subject/object, like we are both part of the universe, but fundamentally something separate from it? While if you look at the concept of interpendent origination, we forget that **We Are the Universe Itself**... so we are the thing itself that we are treating as meaningless(the universe), we are a expression of the thing itself, and part of it... Human qualia/consciouness/brain, exists as we experience it, because of the conditions and material and physical aspects that make it possible, we are part of the universe experiencing all the other parts. So we are not "vessels" of the universe, we are interconectted with the universe itself, our existence and related, dependent and connected to it... So we are not isolated on the cosmos, we are a expression and fragment of the cosmos itself, a presentation of the cosmos itself as humans. It makes us feel more relieved with the feeling of being "alone" in the universe... It means that we don't need to feel like the universe has put a weight on us, since we are the universe itself, so death is the cosmos continuing its cycle. But I agree with Peter that meditation and distraction may be the main coping mechanisms that I'm using(Idk if it is, or if it's something "beyond" a coping mechanism, since meditation requires you to be alone with your own thoughts without external distractions...) I wonder if it's possible to face reality without any of these 4 coping mechanisms described, and then be able to "conquer/kinda overcome/"transcend" this existential dispair that we distract us from ever since we are born... Is this part of what Jung calls confronting and accepting/embracing the shadow, and what buddhists would call non-attachment to aversion or passion towards unpleasant sensations, feelings and thoughts? 🤔🤔
Thanks for a great video. I thought, however, that Zapffe's conception of sublimation involved not just thinking positively about death and existential worries, but transferring it into a creative outlet e.g. art, writing, performance? This is why Zapffe says that the essay 'The Last Messiah' is his personal attempt at sublimation.
It's not being dead that's the problem really, it's how horrifying the process of dying is going to be, on a case by case basis, for you personally. Is it going to be a quick heart attack, or something from a Final Destination movie?
I’m less worried about fantastical gore and dread the possibility of protracted malfunctioning such as cancer, dementia, or disastrous infection. Knowing it’s nearer but at a slow and painful pace.
Attachment brings lasting perspective through which all thoughts are funneled. Diversion is temporary and present-minded. It avoids thoughts being sourced from certain places. Attachment can be believing in an afterlife, or your own sense of happiness and the worthwhile nature of your otherwise pointless laboring. Mountain climbing the activity is diversion, but you can also form an attachment to it and gain perspective of life as a mountain to climb and something worth getting better at and experiencing. Death is death, but arriving to the point of not fearing it is not obvious and often at the cost of greater pain. So it feels dishonest to say people are capable of taking it as a neutral element by default. Perhaps you'd find it more agreeable if we spoke of the fear of death, rather than death itself. It is the fear that binds us.
Zapffe was named in a part of the podcast where listeners can hear him speak. I'm guessing this host doesn't know and thus doesn't care. None of the Massaia essay was told
Thanks for this. I am very in tune with the natural world like non-human animals. I call this my Spidey senses. My Sidey senses tell me if I am feeling an Earthquake, if bad weather is coming etc. (My Dad had it too but not my Mom) I have lots of Existential dread so I could relate. I try to put a positive spin on death also like I made a Will and asked for Aquamation or water cremation.
I disagree with your sublimation of death point, as some have pointed out (CGP Grey comes to mind) death is something that we may be able to conquer given enough time and technically. If we had the capability to defeat death, it’s value suddenly becomes a lot more pertinent. If death isn’t bad, why bother fixing it? If death is bad, then abolishing death becomes vitally important. I personally fall in the second camp, but it’s interesting that Zapffe both thought death was bad and that trying to fix it through technology was also bad. It’s kind of like he was looking for an excuse to be pessimistic?
It's a lot more complicated than just "Is death bad or good?" And I think that's how zapffe sees it. We fear death, we don't wanna die, as is programmed into our biology, and I think most of us could agree that taking someone life or not doing what you can to help them is wrong. But at the same time, death is a very necessary part of existence. Without it, things over populate and get out of control. And if we did achieve literal immortality, not only do I think we would go on a conquest attempting to conquer everything in sight, in turn destroying everything, but aswell, I think many would lose any sense of wanting to go on if immortal. Eventually, they would have done everything they wanted and perhaps eventually get bored of life, then wishing for death. And besides, the universe will most likely one day collapse in on itself. If the sun imploding dosent wipe us out, then the eventual end of existence will. I think the goal should be to learning how to come to terms with the fact that we are one day going to die, and not trying to "cure" death
Not an excuse at all. Death is a key element to the already bad system of existence. Living forever would be obviously bad as it merely extends all the bad in living to infinity. Yet the fact we have to die and experience death around us is also bad. Neither of these have something good to give us, so why pretend there is a dichotomy going on?
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The works of renowned pessimists such as Schopenhauer and Mainlander are often discussed when examining the realm of pessimistic philosophy. But, the 20th-century Norwegian philosopher, Peter Wessel Zapffe, adds a unique take on the melancholic perspective. He's remarkable in his own right, having switched from a law graduate to mountain climber. His most popular writing, "The Last Messiah", advocates for how our heightened consciousness is both a blessing and a burden. It renders us particularly aware of the grim facts of life - death and our lack of significance in the grand scheme of things.
Here in Sweden we don't have any pessimistic philosophers, only poets. I'm glad that our brothers in the west at least have one and a very great man as well.
Why are there copies of "The Gay Science" all over the place? Do you have a dog? A little French poodle or something?
Zapffe is my favorite philosopher.
Then Herman Tønnessen is for you!
@@Poetrixx yeah he is great too. I recently uploaded an obscure Zapffe documentary with AI translated subtitles on my channel if your'e interested.
I love this forgotten philosopher series
The second part of Socrates famous saying was lost. The complete text is this: "The unexamined life is not worth living. The examined life is even worse."
I just stumbled on philosophytoons today, and I love it. You are making me think about my own life and using history to back it up. Bravo! I'll stay tuned for more cool stuff
Love this! This made me think of our ego. The ego is what keeping us distracted from the reality of death and I think it contains within it all the distractions you mention here. That’s what the yogis practice: letting go of the distractions to realize the true Self , be ok with death, and see the truth 😌✨
The western pessimistic tradition, of course, denies any soteriology or transcendence.
Great video!!!
You might not realize but animal is not a mere survival, they experience their own 'being' too although it is not quite the same as human 'being-ness' or 'presence-in-the-world', animal consciousness 'world-involvement' have share characteristic of human 'world-involvement' such as spatiality or dwelling
I agree with the existence of the defense mechanisms this thinker provided , althought from seeing someone audio-reading the essay. I didn't understand the essay itself, only the descriptions of the philosopher ideas on wikipedia and on your channel.
But personally, as someone who has become interested in Buddhism and Spirituality and Meditation, some spiritual thinkers and gurus gave thoughts to head that made me have a little kinda-disagreement" with the way these 'nihilistic'/pessimistic philosophers seem to view the world(or at least what I know of them, since I haven't read them per se):
- It seems that Peter or other nihilistic and existentialist philosophers describe human consciouness and personal existence too much as something that is a "tragic being that creates meaning in a meaningless universe. This kind of thought may actually be accurate, but there is a fundamental thing here: It seems like some kind of separation between "us", and the "objective universe", subject/object, like we are both part of the universe, but fundamentally something separate from it? While if you look at the concept of interpendent origination, we forget that **We Are the Universe Itself**... so we are the thing itself that we are treating as meaningless(the universe), we are a expression of the thing itself, and part of it... Human qualia/consciouness/brain, exists as we experience it, because of the conditions and material and physical aspects that make it possible, we are part of the universe experiencing all the other parts. So we are not "vessels" of the universe, we are interconectted with the universe itself, our existence and related, dependent and connected to it... So we are not isolated on the cosmos, we are a expression and fragment of the cosmos itself, a presentation of the cosmos itself as humans. It makes us feel more relieved with the feeling of being "alone" in the universe... It means that we don't need to feel like the universe has put a weight on us, since we are the universe itself, so death is the cosmos continuing its cycle.
But I agree with Peter that meditation and distraction may be the main coping mechanisms that I'm using(Idk if it is, or if it's something "beyond" a coping mechanism, since meditation requires you to be alone with your own thoughts without external distractions...)
I wonder if it's possible to face reality without any of these 4 coping mechanisms described, and then be able to "conquer/kinda overcome/"transcend" this existential dispair that we distract us from ever since we are born... Is this part of what Jung calls confronting and accepting/embracing the shadow, and what buddhists would call non-attachment to aversion or passion towards unpleasant sensations, feelings and thoughts? 🤔🤔
I agree
Thanks for a great video. I thought, however, that Zapffe's conception of sublimation involved not just thinking positively about death and existential worries, but transferring it into a creative outlet e.g. art, writing, performance? This is why Zapffe says that the essay 'The Last Messiah' is his personal attempt at sublimation.
Great video, I don’t agree with his philosophy but he’s very interesting, hope you can make a video on Han Ryner soon
"sitting around watching TV" is generally a different experience than gaming, which can be incredibly involved and challenging.....
🤓
👍
It's not being dead that's the problem really, it's how horrifying the process of dying is going to be, on a case by case basis, for you personally. Is it going to be a quick heart attack, or something from a Final Destination movie?
I’m less worried about fantastical gore and dread the possibility of protracted malfunctioning such as cancer, dementia, or disastrous infection. Knowing it’s nearer but at a slow and painful pace.
Attachment brings lasting perspective through which all thoughts are funneled. Diversion is temporary and present-minded. It avoids thoughts being sourced from certain places.
Attachment can be believing in an afterlife, or your own sense of happiness and the worthwhile nature of your otherwise pointless laboring. Mountain climbing the activity is diversion, but you can also form an attachment to it and gain perspective of life as a mountain to climb and something worth getting better at and experiencing.
Death is death, but arriving to the point of not fearing it is not obvious and often at the cost of greater pain. So it feels dishonest to say people are capable of taking it as a neutral element by default.
Perhaps you'd find it more agreeable if we spoke of the fear of death, rather than death itself. It is the fear that binds us.
How happy are those never born
We have being given live which is entangled with death, o you lucky people.
Bill Burr's Monday Morning Podcast brought me here.
He mentioned Zapffe? In which episode?
Zapffe was named in a part of the podcast where listeners can hear him speak. I'm guessing this host doesn't know and thus doesn't care. None of the Massaia essay was told
Thanks for this. I am very in tune with the natural world like non-human animals. I call this my Spidey senses. My Sidey senses tell me if I am feeling an Earthquake, if bad weather is coming etc. (My Dad had it too but not my Mom) I have lots of Existential dread so I could relate. I try to put a positive spin on death also like I made a Will and asked for Aquamation or water cremation.
This is all so stupidly dismissive of someone who actually had his own thoughts on life.
😂😂
I'am sure, that you have no one "own" thoughts...
how so?
I disagree with your sublimation of death point, as some have pointed out (CGP Grey comes to mind) death is something that we may be able to conquer given enough time and technically. If we had the capability to defeat death, it’s value suddenly becomes a lot more pertinent. If death isn’t bad, why bother fixing it? If death is bad, then abolishing death becomes vitally important. I personally fall in the second camp, but it’s interesting that Zapffe both thought death was bad and that trying to fix it through technology was also bad. It’s kind of like he was looking for an excuse to be pessimistic?
*Technology not technically
It's a lot more complicated than just "Is death bad or good?" And I think that's how zapffe sees it. We fear death, we don't wanna die, as is programmed into our biology, and I think most of us could agree that taking someone life or not doing what you can to help them is wrong. But at the same time, death is a very necessary part of existence. Without it, things over populate and get out of control. And if we did achieve literal immortality, not only do I think we would go on a conquest attempting to conquer everything in sight, in turn destroying everything, but aswell, I think many would lose any sense of wanting to go on if immortal. Eventually, they would have done everything they wanted and perhaps eventually get bored of life, then wishing for death. And besides, the universe will most likely one day collapse in on itself. If the sun imploding dosent wipe us out, then the eventual end of existence will. I think the goal should be to learning how to come to terms with the fact that we are one day going to die, and not trying to "cure" death
Not an excuse at all. Death is a key element to the already bad system of existence. Living forever would be obviously bad as it merely extends all the bad in living to infinity. Yet the fact we have to die and experience death around us is also bad. Neither of these have something good to give us, so why pretend there is a dichotomy going on?
muh sooooffeeerrrinnngg
The most intellectual and non predictable Reddit moderator
Coping is not the same as coming to terms.
@@lilemont9302 I coped with ur mum last nite