I think onx has more of an effect than Joe and Cam on social media. Years ago people were afraid of getting lost in the backcountry, now they have a way out. When I started elk hunting the backcountry the only option were topo maps. Big difference!
I've been saying the same thing for awhile. Suddenly it's far harder to get away from people that had no business being in the back country 10 years ago. That said, I do love using it hahaha. But man I would happily lose the ability to go back to pouring over topo maps and have some solitude back
I definitely feel like I am one of the guys whose life has been saved by hunting. Prior to getting into it I did not have anything I was passionate about in my life. I had a "good career", a car, a house, and some hobbies but nothing pushing me to excel in any aspect of my life. I was content to go through the motions each day and spend my free time playing video games or wasting time on the internet. My Dad is a life long hunter and he took me on a lot of hunting trips as a kid. I killed my first Mule Deer with him, and almost shot a Bull Elk. But over all, I was just along for the ride and was never really interested in it. As a young kid I found driving around and glassing to be boring, the hiking to be physically difficult, and the cold conditions uncomfortable. Fast forward to 6 years ago I started accompanying my Dad on Elk hunts and I harvested my first elk, a young cow. While the experience was memorable, I still wasn't invested in hunting. I was there just to spend time with my Dad. The year or so after that hunt I started watching Meat Eater on the recommendation of a friend. Rinella articulated a perspective on hunting and showed a passion for the sport in a way that my Dad was just not able to. He has always been a man of few words and would always say that he hunted to put food on the table for the family. But the more I watched hunting videos and listened to other men explain their whys for hunting I started to see that my Dad's brief explanation was not the full picture. Needing meat didn't explain why he went to Alaska in the early 90s to hunt Bear, Moose and Caribou. Why he spent 30 days scouting and hunting for a Ram above Aspen. Or why he had been an ultramarathon runner. The more I learned about hunting and what it took to be successful, the more I learned about my Dad and the more I developed a new found admiration for him. At his peak in the mid 90s he was doing what Cam does now, running Pike's Peak or Leadville in the summer and hunting sheep, goats, or elk in the fall. Coming to this new perspective on my Dad made me want to go on my own adventures, test myself physically and mentally, and have my own stories to tell. I will always be grateful to the Rinella, Newberg, Molls for sharing their hunting adventures, their knowledge, and most importantly their passion for the sport. I am now 5 years into being obsessed with hunting. It's given me a completely new relationship with my Dad. He is now not only my Dad but my mentor, my best friend, and inspiration. I killed my first Bull Elk in 2021 with my Dad at my side. Once the Bull was down, we hugged each other. He had tears in his eyes as he told me he was proud of me. That's a memory we will both have with me the rest of our lives. And it wouldn't have happened had it not been for other hunters sharing their experiences on social media.
Joe & Cam hunt extremely well managed non pressured elk on huge tracks of private land. That is not real elk hunting nor is it realistic for most people
Cam used to be a diy backpack hunter but he did it when there was FAR LESS pressure on public land and when he wasn't sponsored. Now his sponsors and businesses can basically pay for him to go on these extravagant hunts on private land. And that's ok. He cut his teeth doing it the hard way. Joe Rogan on the other hand gets no sympathy from me. He's just some rich guy with lots of friends. If he thinks elk hunting is "hard" on a $25,000 private land elk hunt, he'd turn into the biggest whiney bitch on a diy OTC backpack Colorado elk hunt. If you dropped him into one of those units he'd quit within 3 days because there would be no bugles, no fresh elk sign, people everywhere, and he doesn't know how to hunt. His guides and friends do...
Joe hunt’s public land more than most people realize. He also hunts private to. Joe has also worked harder than most to get what he has. Cam has bustehis a$$ for years to get to hunt the land he does. He would spend days hunting the hard back country hunts that we public land hunters hunt. He just has been doing it longer so it’s easier for him now. It wasn’t just given it was earned through hard work and meeting the right people. ITS HARD WORK.
@@Farmersforever1993 could you please link the Instagram story, TH-cam video, or magazine article where Joe Rogan went on a SOLO backpack hunt on public land?
He's entirely tone-deaf and disconnected from the reality that "regular" hunters live in. He went from never hunting a day in his life, went on a handful of (assumedly free) fully guided hunts, to being an "expert hunter" over the course of a year to 18 months. He's got all the time in the world, never had to worry about PTO, money, or access to animals. He could blast out a tweet and get free guided hunts and/or restricted access hunts pouring into his DM's, in a heartbeat. I understand he probably means well but he comes across as such a douche when he speaks down on "average Joe" hunters, from such a privileged position
Yeah.. your's is a hyperbolic reply to a frankly dumb comment by Joe. The # of trailheads are limited, so "find another one stupid" is, well, stupid. I love Joe, but I've not heard much talk about the facts that he has the means to hunt very high $$ private. Cam.. well, I'm pretty sure he spends a lot of time on public as well.
Ya I didn’t like that comment either, and there is lots more hunters then years before but I still can get into the same herds I always have at least in Arizona.
In my 60+ years of hunting reloading and rifle collecting I have seen a few changes and I think the Covid episode pushed a lot of people into the outdoors and once they were out there and felt the fresh air and freedom they made it a regular part of their lives to have a release from all the terrible things going on! Thanks for giving us an update Cliff on all the chatter talk on this subject!
He’s got money, what’s your point? There are public land hunters that are still successful every year. You are not entitled to a piece of public land just because you’ve been going there for a few years. You don’t pay any more for it than anyone else
@@bigz5262 nothing against him having money or paying to play, but he's talking shit to people that are annoyed at over pressured public land (alot of it due to influencers like himself) , while at the same time he doesn't have to hunt that same over pressured land. It's Pretty hypocritical of him, and why he's getting so much backlash over that comment
@@lukeonderko8696 it’s not hypocritical. He said find a different trail head and that’s what he does. He’s talking shit about people whining, not people that are a little annoyed
@@F22Ra he’s probably been on more trailheads than most of the entitled crybabies whining about crowded trailheads. But yeah he probably always has a guide with
I’ve been a OTC elk hunter for 35 years in CO. When the state closed down all the southern units to OTC all those hunters went north they had no choice. If you want to post a hunt fine but these young people video the trail head and wonder why they are full up next year. Takes a lifetime to learn a unit and how to hunt it and be successful. Rogan making that statement is like me telling him about UFC fighting that I know nothing about. It’s demoralizing and sad to think about what it has become and that young hunters will never see what it use to be.
I’m in the exact opposite shoes, been spearing my whole life, but only recently starting elk hunting. We love seeing new people getting into spearfishing, and one of my greatest joys in the sport now is teaching the newbies what we do and watching them go through the milestones. My experience so far in the mountains has been the same. Almost everyone I’ve run into, both other new guys and seasoned locals, have not only been super friendly but also extremely helpful and willing to share some knowledge with us. I think it comes down to one factor…respect gets respect.
very true man! We gotta to some trip swaping! Nailed it with the last three words. It's amazing how some folks have issues with everyone no matter the endeavor, then some folks have zero issues. I think "respect gets respect" is the primary difference.
Matt rinellas argument and perspective on the commercialization of the hunting market does seem to have many valid points, and hoping there'll be a decrease of hunting influencers doing for the gear, clout, likes and follows.
The other day i was thinking how nice it will be when the Joe rogan podcasters give it up and find something more popular. My neighbor fell into this whole thing, bought Two bows 3 yeti coolers and about 3k worth of sitka. lol I'm not jealous or mad about the new hunters, its nice knowing most give it up. The ones who stick around for 10+ years it probably means something to them.
Without watching the entire video (yet, I will), my kneejerk reaction is 2020 has in many changed, or ruined, hunting. The lockdowns drove people outdoors who wouldn't have otherwise been there. Some went back to the city aftewords, some got a taste and came back for more. I can say that in 2020, in one area i hunted archery, where there used to be 2 or 3 solo hunters like myself, in 2020 there were multiple GROUPS of hunters. It was like rifle season, but with bows. A lot of those guys you could tell by what they were doing, what they were wearing, were new. Ever since 2020, the popularity of hunting has EXPLODED. People got on the self reliance train. There's a lot of misconceptions about the "bounty" of the mountains I think. I think a lot of people see hunting as a means of self reliance. Too many shows on TV. 2020, caused SOOO many things. A large migration of people from the west coast, a huge uptick in hunting intrest like i said. Many of these people started to listen to, seek out, things they otherwise might not have, like hunting on social media. Using my channel as an example, I was recording my own hunts since 2018. Up until 2020, I had a total of 30 subscribers. Now, I've 670+. Not a large sum by any means, BUT, I do not use hash tags, I avoid certain keywords, I don't mention where I live, I don't ask anyone to subscribe, just doing my own thing ,and not trying to make a spectical of myself, and yet my channel keeps growing without ANY effort on my part. Personally, I see that as a trend, but it all started with 2020. Voices like Rogan amplify that interest, and have wider reach, but I honestly think 2020 kicked everything into overdrive and it hasn't stopped. ANother example, OTC tags for my area used to sell out in 2 months in 2018/2019. (EDIT: correction, in 2018 tags sold out in 2 months, in 2019, two weeks) Ever since 2020, they've been selling out in less than ONE DAY. Kind of a clue.
I hear ya. I agree that covid accelerated it all. Just curious, has it always been the same quota of tags? If so, why do you think you are seeing more pressure? The hunters with the tags hunting more? going into places that used to get hunted less? etc... There are so many angles to talk about on this topic... the rest of the video I just give an explanation of why I don't fault people for introducing others to hunting.... The thing is I have a similar feeling about some of the other things you mention... self-reliance, living in more remote areas, etc... I battle with this because again - I believe it improves peoples' lives but at the same time acknowledge it has some negative affects on those already in that life style.
This is very accurate. Before 2020 in utah you could buy a tag not to far before the hunt. Now you have to be in line at 7 am day they open for sale and they sell out in hours.
@@CliffGray Tag quotas for general season have been the same. From what I've observed, its a lot of new hunters, or perhaps hunters new to the state who recently moved here, say from Oregon or Washington. Ever since 2020, there's been more changes on the mountain than just hunting. Recreationalists as well, not just hunters. The mountains are getting trashed, and worn. In some area, that I've hunted for several years, the road that used to be loose dirt, is now hard packed. It looks like brown asphalt now. There's just THAT much more traffic. Many of these areas I've abandoned and no longer hunt. Bonus negative side effect is ALL of this, puts pressure on the elk. Can really go down some rabbit holes on this subject.
I'm a hunter's ed instructor. Every year we are concerned about the numbers of new hunters declining. Either we are recruiting new hunters or we are trying to keep others out of the woods. We can't have it both ways. I think it seems more crowded because access to private land has dwindled so much. I have no problem with landowners leasing out their land to bring in some extra money, but it does increase the pressure on public land.
Yes brother! well said and succinct. We lose way more tags to drought, loss of access, development, and loss of winter habitat than we do to competing hunters who learned about it from Rinella, Newburg, or Rogan. New hunters means new people who care about what transpires in the state houses.
Cliff you're the man. We recognize that you do what you do to help people, and that's honorable. Guys like Cam and Joe do it for follows, attention and to appear macho. I've learned infinitely more from your videos than I have out of those two gentlemen combined. Am I jealous of their hunts and success? No doubt. But I don't think they're helping anyone if that's the question.
Cliff i love your take on the issue and as a new elk hunter myself being last year was my first time trying (didnt get squat) i just had an OTC cow tag, this year i put in a lot more time scouting and E scouting the unit i was going to hunt and got another OTC cow tag in a unit pretty close to town with a lot of pressure and multiple trucks at every trail head, i tagged out opening day 2 hours after first light! It was the best feeling in the world and i thank you for all the great content you put out i feel it has really helped me. Keep up the great work.
Great video Cliff. All I can say is that trends have a spike and then a drop off, hunting is no different. We’re currently in a spike in people getting into hunting, some people will fall off in the next few years. If hunting is your way of life hang in there and adapt when you have to, don’t blame others.
8:44 - agreed, you’re not doing something morally wrong by starting a new activity. Yes it’s a net positive for YOU, but it is not necessarily a net positive for others. IT’s easy for someone like Joe to say “oh you’re just going to have to adapt” because he’s super wealthy, and it was easy for him to come into the sport, being guided and mentored by someone and with the money and access to dramatically shorten his learning curve and lower the barrier to entry that so many others had to work through with blood sweat and tears. It also totally ignores how poor many, many rural hunters are. I grew up in NW Montana. We lived there year-round, when it wad brutally cold and economically difficult. We hunted, literally, to have meat to eat. That’s entirely different than some dude with a poo ton of money flying in, using top of the line gear (not grampas old 30.06 and hand me down boots) with guided knowledge and apps that take half a ton of the work out of it. Often these are guys with no local knowledge and as, Joe clearly demonstrated, no real concern for the local community. I like Joe a lot, and I’m a die hard capitalist, but his statement clueless, and reflective of his short time in the sport. It’s also clear he’s pretty unaware of just how finite a resource “trail heads” are, or that we’ve lost a ton of access in just the last decade. As you mentioned, you must acknowledge that you are impacting someone else experience, most likely, you are impacting it negatively. And, you are likely riding on their coattails, meaning, you’re likely impacting someone who has bled for the sport in a way you haven’t. They didn’t have youtube to teach them. They learned by hard work, trial, error, time invested, where newcomers now are learning a smattering of highlights from outube videos and with apps on their phone. The learning curve is shortened and the barrier to entry lowered so much, that newcomers to the sport aren’t “paying their dues” in the way that those who came before them did, and as such, they’re not the stewards of sport, the land, the animals, that they should be, and their “hunting etiquette” is pretty poor. I think the correct response is, if you want to be morally right, joining a sport can’t be only about your benefit. It can’t be just about “saving your life”. You have to say, if I’m doing this, I’m doing it for me, AND I’m going to make the hunting landscape a better place. I’m going to give back. I’m going to do it responsibly but I’m also going to be an advocate, be a voice for expansion of land access, hunting rights etc. The only way hunters are benefited by more hunters coming into the sport is if they do something to make the sport better. Everyone carries some weight. What is Joe Rogan doing with his platform in this regard? It’s one thing to go on cool guided hunts with youtube hunters and edit the content to make it look like the coolest thing in the world, and drum up interest, but if you love hunting, be involved in a more meaningful way than that, and be humble enough to know that “just find another trail head” may work for guys that can fly anywhere, it doesn’t work for the family that grew up in that town and are scraping to get by.
Great topic Cliff. The comparison to spearfishing is one that hits home to me, I started freediving and spearing 15 years ago and saw the same shift. Interestingly enough, I have trad/big wall climbed for 20 years and noticed the same shift over the same timeframe. Walls and routes started to crowd 10 years ago, and really increased in the last 5. Spearing was the same shift at the same timeframe. I think overall there’s more people in the world, and the advent of GoPro cameras and TH-cam/IG have made learning anything from auto mechanics to spearing or hunting much more accessible. I remember the only way to learn climbing or spearing was through mentors like you had, or sparse information on forums. For better or worse, I think it’s just the shift seen with access to information.
10 years ago, most people couldn’t find Colorado on a map if they tried. But thanks to Eastman’s Hunting Journal, Huntin’ Fool, Epic Outdoors, they’ll tell you where to go and how to get there. Second problem is better fitness of hunters. When I was a kid guys over 40 had heart problems and emphysema and could only road hunt. Now 60 year old guys are packing it in 10 miles.
This is an important conversation. I can really see both sides. I'm an avid public land hunter in North Idaho. I've seen a lot more crowding over the last ten years for sure. It's pushed me to find new spots, hike a little further, and have backup plans. I know a lot of older guys (late 50s and 60s) that complain all the time. Or have even quit. Always talking about the good ole days. It's a double edged sword for sure.
You gotta feel for those guys that can't quite put in the miles anymore, though. It's easy to tell a 35 year old to walk further or spend more on fuel, but some guys might be extending themselves too much to hunt anymore and might be left with just reminiscing.
5 years ago many hunters were saying “we need to bring up more hunters!” Well now we have a lot more and the chant has changed. My observation is that the new hunters who were brought in by the bro-gospel of Jo and Cam are stereotypically...assholes... Joes comment “find another trailhead stupid” perfectly illustrates the attitudes of a lot of these new hunters. Its easy to hate the new guy whose attitude is f-you im going to do what I want how I want to when and where I want to. Im just hoping this is a fad.
I think your conclusion that adapting is a better strategy then just whining is correct. However, some of us older guys who can count our remaining seasons on our fingers, have invested in learning areas and tuning strategies that are being overrun by younger, fresher, eager legs. It would be nice if some of these social media influencers would stress and pass on more basic etiquette that would help mitigate some of the conflict. Groups of exuberant buglers pounding through miles of bedding areas, bumping critters to the next unit or private really does suck. ... I know, suck it up buttercup.... and I will, but with a bit of whine.... Good stuff, on point, as usual. Thanks!
It’s all about respect to other outdoorsmen/outdoorswomen. I’ve been obsessed with hunting since I was four and have spent the last 48 years chasing that passion. I’ve backcountry elk hunted for the past 26 years in Colorado on public land with great success and have taken 22 bulls in those 26 years. Over the past ten years or so, the amount of hunters in the area I hunt have increased but it hasn’t been a detriment. I’ve actually embraced the fact that more like minded people are getting involved. The fact that the voting public has made the choice to reintroduce wolves back to the western slope is a different story. What we’ve loved for years will soon not be obtainable.
Where I live in Europe it's residents only. No out of staters whatsoever. We have an elk (red stag) plague here, I got no bag limit, just a small fee per kill for the state. Can't complain 😅
Money has taken the place of skillz, every Tom ,Dick and Harry wants to be a back country elk slayer... the reason for hunting is food not antlers again Money is the driver... bow season is a joke, 80 to 90 % let off 100 yard shots with a bow and the famous TV quote "lets let him sit overnight" add muzzle loaders with scopes, sabot's and weather protected ignition have ruined that hunt as well. Both of the above hunts were designed to be primitive hunts Money ruined that as well..... todays elk hunters are for the most part tv hunters.. the days of family elk hunting are drawing to a close .
BINGO MR.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,They Bow hunt to be more sporting, but then they move a Tiny Home into the woods ???? They use TENT Blinds and Tiny Homes so they can film and do Jumping Jacks without being seen or caught moving,,BUT that makes it more Sporting. RULE NO 1,,,Kill the Game ETHICALLY, Whats you Prority ?? Kill the game ethically or Getting LIKES and MONEY ??? Guides and Super Cubs ruined Alaska Hunting,,,,,Guides are over 50 % of Fish and Game Board,,,,,Guides make LAW for GUIDES,,,,what could go WRONG ??? U-tub hunters care about LIKES and MONEY,,,most are Fat and Lazy and Hunt out of Tiny Home's,,,,,,,,,,,Oprah Winfrey can move a Tiny Home into the woods in front of a feeder and sit on his or her Fat ass and Hunt just like MOST u-tub Hunters. I still hunt with a Rifle,,,,,,,you want more SPORT ???? I have to be careful picking my nose without being seen,,in a Tiny Home you can Love to your woman while Hunting,,,,,,,,
A lot of wisdom in this video, both from the perspective of "old timers" accepting and tolerating newcomers to a sport, as well as the obligation of newcomers to learn and respect the cultural norms and protocols of a new activity
Old Timer's were Sporting and some of us still are,,,,we like feeling the Wind, Sun, Rain, Dew, Mist , Fog and thats WHY we didnt move TINY Home's into the woods so our little Butts didnt get wet or Cold,,,,,,,,Todays u-tub Hunters are Fat and Lazy and if the non-hunters find out on how people hunt today they are gonna ridicule you to Death,,,,,,,Oprah can sit in front of a Heater with a Lazy Boy and Wi_fi and stare out a window at a feeder and shoot something that show's up to the feeder,,,,,,,,,,they hunt LIKE OPRAH,,,ha ha ha,, you aint no Hunter,,,you are a Fat Lazy wimpy Sitter,,,your skill level is sitting on your ass and looking out a window,,,but they may be hard for some,,,,,,,,,old Folks and the Handi-capped get ALL my Respect for anyway you Hunt,,,these young U-Tub Hunters i cant stand,,,they know Nothing about Hunting
I don't think most people have an issue with others entering into the hobby. Where I think the disconnect is what is a "good experience" out elk hunting. People want to hear elk bugle, see elk, and run into the occasional hunter out in the field... That's not what A LOT of elk hunters, or hunters in general, are experiencing these days. No bugles (because elk have figured out bugling means death), elk don't expose themselves unless they have to (because they'll die otherwise), and over crowding is real. On top of all this elk have learned that private land is safer than public land and land owners charge thousands of dollars to allow people to hunt them which cuts out the average person. Unfortunately the people that will be impacted by the change the most will be non residents, rifle hunters, and the poor. Unless hunters, and game management officials bake a bigger pie so everyone gets a piece hunting will simply become a rich man's sport where it'll cost $10,000 minimum to hunt elk.
I agree with several aspects of your comment Jack. There is so much to cover on this topic, but I have a bunch of specific notes on these ideas. I believe that the experience you describe is becoming more and more prevalent. Pretty spot on in growing parts of Colorado. I believe that this is the fault of the State Game departments. We have entrusted them in rationing tags to hunters, making game unit boundaries, etc... Increase hunt demand might decrease opportunity but hypothetically it shouldn't substantially decrease the quality of the experience if the managers are doing their job.. In parts of the areas I outfitted there were massive increases in hunting pressure for several years and I saw ZERO changes from the State. I do believe that elk hunting, like anything with increased demand will increase in cost.... Again, this could be mitigated to some extent by improved management and increased elk herd yield
@@CliffGray thanks for the reply. I think the biggest gain for elk hunting would be for more private land access. I live in Wyoming and I know Montana is having similar issues. The state legislature came to the wy game and fish and said "why are we getting complaints about elk destroying ranchers crops and eating grass meant for their cattle? This is your job isn't it? They want bull tags to reduce the population. Why won't you give them more bull tags?!" I'm sure at this point game and fish took in a deep breath and said "well let me explain some things to ya" Essentially the elk have quickly figured out private land is safer than public land. Ranchers have figured out that rich people, like Joe Rogan and cam Hanes, will pay big bucks for a bull elk on private property. But game and fish knows that they need to reduce the cow elk population to reduce elk numbers as a whole. This would also help out the public land guys because the elk would jump the fence back onto the public once they start getting shot at on private land. So we're at a stalemate! Ranchers won't let regular guys hunt for cow elk because there's no money in it but will continue to bitch about crop destruction. On top of that the game and fish department doesn't have the authority to twist the ranchers arm into letting people onto their land to hunt.
@@jackbuendgen389weird. Here where I live in Europe hunting is state wide, meaning hunters get access and whether land is private does not matter, owners have no special rights or tags or anything. Hunting is also resident only, and we have stringent license requirements with loads of coursework and exams, which is a pita until you realise that it keeps a lot of half asses out. I get a chamois (which is our kind of mountain goat hunt), two deer and unlimited elk tags for not much money every year, plus a bunch of alpine small game. Can't complain. The only out of staters I see are a few hikers here and there.
My gripe is personal with 1 particular season in 2020. I put in the work scouting and clearing trail access points for archery elk in CO unit 44 as soon as the snow melted in the spring. All summer I rarely saw anyone else in the area so I assumed I would have it mostly to myself and a few other hunting partners I met the season before. So it's a few days before season, I go in and set base camp still nobody else in the area. Opening day I go up and there's several guys from TX running around the trails with Rzr's and I get to talking to them and low and behold they were given the spot by "Cliff Gray" So take it how you want but just remember the influence your voice may have on others hunts.
I’ve never given away spots in my content… do people analyze skylines, etc… trying to figure out where I am? Yeah… 1) they are wrong 90% of the time 2) the vast majority of the videos I make aren’t made in areas I hunt. I do think people should be cautious as to not blow up spots. That’s a fair expectation. The instance you’re talking about - I believe I know who you are talking about. They are guys I personally know, and I gave them some advice on a spot I used to archery hunt 20yrs ago. Pretty normal to help friends out with hunting locations when they do the same for you. Not social media related. 👍
I am newly into elk hunting. It's not MI Whitetail hunting... had to adapt to that. Did I decide to do this from an influencer's post? No way. I agree with you Cliff and my life is better for this. I have learned a ton by your material and appreciate your work. Having new respectful hunters will keep hunting alive for us all. Keep up the good work amigo.
Thank you Cliff, really appreciate your take on a hot button issue. I'll admit, It's far too easy, especially for me, to cringe when a platform as big as Joe's talks hunting (even though I love hearing hunt stories). Adapting is hard, but necessary for survival.
If you watch Cam's video "Cam's Bull of a Lifetime," you realize these celebrity hunters have an army of guides and film crew making sure they get their bull. It's unrealistic and guys getting into the game after watching stuff like Meateater are in for a rude awakening. Too bad the new unprepared hunters are taking away tags from guys hunting these areas their whole lives. Idaho was smart to end over the counter, out of state elk tags during the covid madness. the only problem is for some of these Western states, is the huge influx of people moving in and now being resident hunters.
Was archery hunting for elk in the Ennis area in 1982. Encountered a couple hunting mountain grouse. They asked "what are you guys doing?" We rarely saw anyone during archery season. Now that exact spot is blanketed with hunters from Labor Day to Thanksgiving. It's an entirely different activity. Still enjoyable for me but in other ways. Things change.
In my state I have noticed the biggest impact has been on the general season tags. Part of the issue is DWR is making a lot of changes trying to cope with the influx that are emphasizing opportunity for more tags over opportunity for successful hunts. Dramatically increasing the number of tags (in some cases/species nearly doubling the number of tags) during parts of the hunt where there are already low success rates and the dramatically increased hunting pressure is making those hunts even harder. (the only winner in those situations are the Gear companies and the DWR). It doesn't seem like the Limited Entry Units with high success rates aren't as effected as far as crowding goes because they are not increasing the number of tags but there is a bigger line to try and hunt those areas and tag prices are much higher and the number of points to get into them is going up every year which sucks. I am fortunate to have a 3 kids who are all putting in for tags or building points every year along with me so that we have a pretty good odds that at least one of us will draw decent tags each year so we can all go out and enjoy the hunt together and still have pretty good odds at bringing something home with us.
You bring up a great point, I have seen the same thing. Even the fact that tags have not been CUT in certain areas with the influx in traffic suggest that State game departments don't have any interest in rationing hunts to stabilize hunt quality.
Cliff, you make great points. Joe, Cam and the Rinella brothers ALL have admirable traits and they’re ALL hard workers. I wish the beef would die down because as we’ve learned from hiphop, it’s not the folks you’re beefing with you really have to worry about, it’s the fan bois! HA! But seriously, these aforementioned gentleman are providing a service by having the FULL conversation of what’s actually happening on public and private land in America. Listen to both sides. Debate yourself. Make up your own mind. I personally don’t like when Matt Rinella calls Cam names on his platform. But I also HATE it when Rogan talks about public land hunting in the Midwest and East coast as if it were a peasants pursuit. And it is way lamer to call Matt Rinella, “Steve’s brother” as opposed to saying his name. We know who Joe and Cam are talking about, I mean… c’mon. And finally Cliff, I think you should’ve left “elk” out of the title of this video. The truth I see is: ALL influencers who make a profit off of posting hunts and dead animals online are clearly hurting hunting for everyone including themselves. Joe and Cam are the biggest offenders in this category and no matter how much of a bad ass Cam is (and I believe he is a bad mofo) he has sold his name to marketing teams who have mythologized him into an Icon. And frankly, I don’t believe any of these hunting celebrities are sharing the full truth. I’d bet the farm that most of these guys wound and lose insane numbers of animals every year as their relevance and legacy depends on killing big game. And now like never before, through the very specific and intentional design of hunting marketing agencies, there are hordes of young new hunters traveling around the US thinking they’re Alpha Predators! They illegally litter public lands with trail cam like Timothy Treadwell as they film their misadventures, with the very specific intention of building a brand that profits off of killing big game. They hike around WMA’s and take every technical advantage they can get because they need more content. It doesn’t even look like fun, and you can literally watch endless videos of hunting influencers whining about “the grind” of hunting for content. You can listen to hundreds of podcasts wherein these influencers-people making money off publicly shared wildlife-advise folks to “turn the phones off” and “enjoy the hunt again,” except they can’t and won’t because they’re market hunters trafficking in relevance and kill shot content. All the influencers say the same thing that Matt Rinella says! Except the part where Rinella says it’s actually a problem… It’s a deadly cycle. We are messing things up. Everybody knows it. Matt Rinella can be a real dick, but he is trying to help public land. Unfortunately, Rinella is a state employed Ecologist and tho he is raising funds to help, he ain’t rich. Joe Rogan and Cam could help the American hunter with a series of Podcasts that could raise millions, in prolly a month. Cam and Joe don’t have to hunt public, but they could help us peasant bastards. Hell, why not have Steve’s brother on the JRE? Merry Christmas.
The way it’s all heading is that you will only be able to draw a tag in the state you want to hunt every 5-6 years. That means that if you want to hunt every year, you need to start building points in ALL the western states and just hunt them on a rotational basis.
I think that's pretty close to the reality. Even if you see a 20-30% reduction in Colorado elk tags (which I believe is likely) someone can depend on elk hunting every year if they apply for 3-4 states. They may not but premium hunts, but still decent hunts. Not sure how long that will last. I didn't get into it in this video, but I actually think the fault of that has to do with State wildlife management.. the "supply side" of the issue. Thanks for the comment Shane!
I always enjoy your experience and understanding of modern controlled hunting. Experience is knowledge and you are knowledgeable. I hunt wilderness and appreciate your perspective. I’m older, so your more modern take on our future is important to me. Cam and Joe are just trying to get views. Big difference. I enjoy Joe, but I know how to listen to his “experience”.
We need to recruit as many people we can to hunting! Thank you Cam and Joe for getting more people into it. If we dont get a shit load more people were going to loose it. Im a washington resident and losing hunting is a very real prospect. You just have to adapt. Evolve or die as a hunter. I hunt anything legel, anytime legal, any method legal.
everything is more crowded, not just hunting. Can’t hardly get into glacier park any more. Regular state campgrounds are booked up months in advance. Rafting the lower main salmon use to be secluded but can’t even get a beach anymore. Everybody’s got a raft, rv, dirt bike and a bow nowadays.
I think hunting will continue to change. Be prepared for your grandkids or your great grandkids to have a deer hunt or an antelope hunt be a “once in a lifetime” tag. Enjoy what we have now and do all you can while you can. Thank some of the founding fathers before us who had the foresight and desire to create public lands that everyone has access to.
The problem isn't the hunting,. The problem is the promotion of these activities on tv and social media to the point that it's commercialization has impacted the hunting in a negative way. It's increased the number of people hunting (I'm not willing to call them hunters because for the most part they are just shooters) and this has increased the demand for places to hunt, the amount of people hunting a fixed amount of land, the costs have increased because of supply and demand affects, etc.... One of the great joys of hunting, fishing, etc... is the solitude of being in the woods, out on the water etc... but instead you often end up dealing with confrontations in those places due to the added amount of people trying to do what you're doing. I like Joe Rogan for the most part but he isn't a hunter, he's a shooter. He couldn't kill a deer or elk if he didn't have Rinella, Hanes, outfitters etc... guiding him to the target.
Social media and OnX have literally ruined hunting... I've been waterfowl hunting avidly for 30 years and unless you have big money and leases it has gotten tough. The direction it's going is not good... in ten more years it will be like going to Walmart when you want to go hunting.
Ruined hunting by getting more people out hunting? This sounds like you're just upset that there's more public using public lands you think you're entitled to.
Waterfowl hunting is really tough now with out land access. You can scout some public areas and get lucky that you found the x, but most of the time its crap shoot these days.
@@smthcrmnal26, Public land hunting for any species can be a crap shoot with possible crowding. It's just a bit hypocritical to complain about others doing the same thing you're doing. In the context of elk or other big game, I'd argue ATV's, SxS, and this idea that it's cool to shoot 1/2 mile plus at animals are worse than anything found online.
@scottrossingnol6034 I'm not upset about public land I'm fortunate enough to be a successful waterfowl hunter and I have private land to hunt. I've seen people fist fight over public hunting though and the amount of unethical people that social media has brought to the table is the problem. There is not an unlimited amount of fish in a small lake and there is not an unlimited amount of elk or birds in an area. Some people will never understand that and they take take take.
Your spot on. The public land has been busy for many years. But, a guy used to be able to get permission from neighbors. Especially when we were still in school. Now, someone wealthy has leased that property. The most entitled people are the wealthy. They are spoiled brats and bullies like Joe. They just call everyone else a dumb ass. Then the overlanders come through and put 24" ruts through areas we used to drive only when it was dry enough. Now you have deep pot holes. Our kids could afford to buy land near us. Crap land is now so outrageously priced. You can't even get that.
Nice Cliff. Thanks for presenting this, well thought our and eloquent in the explained nuance. I chased a Uku for two year before I got my first one, so i understand and big congrats on the Wahoo!
It is a slippery slope, I watch lots of "TH-cam hunters" content. I have been hunting my whole life. Went on my first quail hunt when I was 8 and shot my first deer when I was 12 and have hunted for the last 21 years. That being said I still find it frustrating so see so much more pressure on tags because of increased number of people. I am extremely torn. I dont want to discourage people from pursuing this activity because I love hunting and can fully understand why people fall in love with this activity. But the more people that are out there the lower the quality of my experience is while doing this activity. Take this for what it is but that's my 2 cents.
I find myself torn in that as well. But with more and more hunters, hopefully we can advocate states to lease more and more ground for public land, which in-turn will make it better for everyone. I like what Newberg says, “I don’t want less people sharing the pie, I want more people sharing a bigger pie so we all get our fill.” I have aligned my thoughts with the same idea. Additionally, the more hunters that their are, the less likely of chance, lawmakers will ever be able to take away what my one true passion is in life.
There is something about hunting that speaks to humans in a way that money and social status never does. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic and yes we all need to be accepting of others experiencing this as well
I've hunted one thing or another for 34 years. I've seen a lot of changes but since I live in the state of insanity (CA) I guess my family and I have been a part of the "problem" we have hunted multiple states for multiple critters. And what we have seen is the weekend warriors are crazy now days. The first 3 or 4 days of the season are nuts, people everywhere. But come 5 or 6 days into the season it's crickets. All camps are pretty much empty. We don't do OTC anymore because we have built up a ton of points in 6 Western states for a variety of big game animals. Now we just pick a state. Figured what hunt we want and go. 5 or 6 points in most states gets you a great hunt!
Thanks Jake! I think that is the honest reality. There are lots of good hunts if you plan it out and spend some resources/effort. the hunting worlds is actually pretty good, particularly as an American
@@progradepainting3755 I've never hunted Arizona, well, yet anyway. My experience comes from Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, and even Colorado. I but like I said In my post. I don't hunt OTC anymore and I don't have near the people. But I spend upwards of 1500 a year in points for my family and I. Now we get to hunt where and when we want.
Good vid, CLIFF! If Cam and Joe didn’t ruin it, someone else would’ve ;) technology is what changing everyone’s lives. Our ability to communicate and spread info is insane. Go have your own experience. It’s about the hunt. Not the kill. The elk adapt and so should the hunters! Man up.
I used to enjoy some of the original hunting programs. Now there are just too many peeps out there putting up content. Joe and Cam dont hunt like the majority of us. I wouldn't classify what they do as hunting, but lean more towards shooting. Social media has been good for hunting in some ways and detrimental in many others. Kind of like OnX...there are NO secrets out there anymore.
yea when they describe their 4 days at "elk camp" and how everybody there managed to harvest a trophy bull, that is not very obtainable for the average Joe (pun intended)
I'm not a lifelong hunter but I can really relate to the guys that are upset. I grew up in the eighties surfing and it was my life passion. By the mid nineties most surf brands had sold to the same major corporates and u saw cheezy surf shops move to every mall, even inland. A sport that was ignored and mocked as only for loser stoners grew incredibly into the 2000s. We lost traditional etiquette in surf lineups and places like Socal and Hawaii, Australia became out of control crowded at any half decent rideable wave. I threw in the towel on my surf culture and I'm pretty bitter. I surf better than 99.8% of anybody that calls themselves a surfer. But I now only surf when I visit my wife's country of Indonesia (which is crowded with Euro and Aussie surfers). Some hobbies are very difficult and expensive to do when the hordes come. Some OG''s make $$ off of it and accept it, or just thrive in the rat race. Not me, its devastating and just being frustrated is a major understatement. Cheers Cliff!
I think the surf analogy is a great one. Similar issues. However, I believe that it is much easier to control how an influx of new hunters affect overall hunt quality. We already have tag allocations and regulations in place around this concept. In many places State game departments haven't stepped up to the plate to control crowding... perhaps they don't want to give up the extra tag revenue, etc... But the mechanism to keep the quality of the experience intact is there. I absolutely hear what you are saying but the fact you say "it was my life passion", makes it so I have to ask... Do you think there is value in that a lot of other people picked up the hobby and it became a passion to them? I have gone round and round with this in the context of elk hunting...
At the end of the day, those hunters that have enjoyed hunting low pressure areas can't stop people from becoming more interested. They don't own the land or the animals. They've been blessed and privileged to have those opportunities and so they shouldn't be upset when other people take interest. I get it it sucks when you pull up to a spot and other hunters are there. It's a free world though.
@jeremiahcoles2378 I wholeheartedly agree. Too many guys get unhinged because other people are hunting "their area" even though it's public land. My suggestion is hunt harder/deeper/smarter. Competition is a fact of life. With that said, we're all on the same team (pro hunting)and should respect each other and exercise etiquette, rather than spoil precious hunting time.
One problem with new people getting into hunting is there are certain people going out into the woods and wilderness that have no buisness being there, no woodsmanship skills, oblivious to whats going on, no awareness and possibly get themselves hurt or killed and worse get others hurt or killed.
You presented good points on both sides of the discussion. I have been hunting the majority of my life(40 years of the 46). I live in Montana and have first hand witnessed a disregard of courtesy and understood customs of hunting. First come first serve..public land spots. Nonresident hunters have a week to hunt and are going to hunt the drainage even if others are there. Im glad hunting is growing, i just wish everyone would adopt a level of respect and honor for each other. Hunting has changed a great deal.
This is an interesting concept when its comes to hunting... There really aren't much for "unwritten rules" in the hunting world that the majority feel like they need to follow. I don't have an explanation of why that is... In many other activities I feel like rules of the road become even more solid as demand and potential conflict grows. thanks for the comment!
Hunting is not growing look at any Easter state’s license number or deer kill. Western state big game is bigger because of how much the western states population has grown. The overall % of people who hunt is on the decline and that’s not good for us as it means we have less leverage when it comes to hunting laws and anything related
I think the point is missed in all this "Socially influenced" increase of hunting adventurers. The dynamic shift is not Soley falling in the lap of social media, It's the perfect storm of multiple things all happening at same time which these influencers helped bring to the public's awareness. Technology. Add in great gear, like more efficient weapons (bows/LR rifle equipment), Wireless trail cams, muzzle loaders that shot beyond 200 yards with extreme accuracy, light weight, effect clothing, comfortable all purpose packs, light weight tent options, titanium stoves, dehydrated foods and equipment, water purification systems, etc... The list of tech gadgets that have flooded the industry has made it more enjoyable and possible to stay longer, go deeper. Then add in the greed of States who saw the market profitability opportunity and ran with it. Creating a variety of extra hunts cleverly placed and named increasing their total sales profits. No one will dent yhe herd numbers are way less than a decade ago. The argument is who is to blame. Well everyone involved I guess.
The Departments of Wildlife Management are to blame. It is their job to control herd sizes. If herds are shrinking, it's their fault, full stop. Call your state reps and senators.
Grew up in the Florida keys and love spearfishing. The reefs used to be full of Hogfish, not so anymore. The reality is Hogfish are not too smart and get wiped out quickly.
Thanks for all of the great videos you've posted...they've definitely helped me become a better hunter. My brothers and I have been talking about this topic recently, so I'm going to get up on my soapbox. There's no doubt that there are significantly more hunters on public land than there were ten years ago. There's no doubt that a big part of that is the multitude of media out there that explains how to get into field, how to get tags, and advice on strategies, etc... I feel for long time hunters, especially Residents, who have historically hunted spots that are now a pumpkin patch. But complaining about it or trying to place blame is like trying to stop the rising tide. I remember when A River Runs Through It came and and that movie pushed a HUGE amount of people into flyfishing. Does it kinda suck? Yep. But did I bemoan the loss of solitude on certain stretches of the river? Yeah, I'll admit I did internally, but I harbored no ill will for the guys new to it. The same thing is happening with public land hunting, especially elk, now. It's actually an impressive feat that you (and many others) have managed to build an industry and way of life out of almost nothing. Kudos. The only real problem with public land hunting is that it is open to EVERYBODY. Unfortunately, that includes the good, the bad and the ugly. It includes the hunters that leave no trace behind and it includes the ones that leave a trail of trash. It includes the hunters that make sure they know the regs, and the ones that could care less about being legal. The consequence of these issues not only make it harder on the 'good guys', but its promoting quite a backlash against public land, non resident especially, hunters in general. It cringe to suggest that some videos should be put out to tell people how to be ethical and to pick up their trash, but maybe it couldn't hurt. These are things you should already know but the time you're in the field, but it appears that many don't.
Cliff- I love all your content. To all the haters- nobody cares. Work harder. I recently bought Backcountry Bowhunter by Cam and it’s amazing. He is a straight savage and has a history of diy wilderness backpack elk and deer hunting before he was a social media icon. That said, Joe has a level of discipline which makes him a great archer. I dont hate… but maybe a little jealous.
Great video Cliff it does a great job to address a number of points where people like to look past the everyone has to start somewhere. My biggest problems are the hook throwers and shooters that never want to move beyond that stage of getting their feet wet and not learning to respect and treasure the wildlife and land if they decide to continue the pursuit. Alaska has been in an interesting spot with a fairly steady downturn that has started to collapse a lot of fisheries for about 6 years and the start of a downturn with some rough winters starting about 4 years ago that have put hunting in a tight spot along with poor management has made some areas almost completely devoid of wildlife. A lot of this downturn for both sides are greatly contributed to by commercial interests and weather, but the new hook throwers and shooters that don’t want to learn to respect the wilderness and wildlife certainly aren’t helping in some cases.
I think there is a lot of truth to that. In a lot of my videos (the more skillset oriented ones), I quite often get comments that say "most people can't do that because they have a life" or "easy enough for you to say, you get to hunt a lot" or "your way over analyzing this".... I realize that a lot of folks bring a modern mindset to the fishing/hunting world gadget/gadget/wham/bam/picture with no intention of actually getting into the weeds of what they are doing and what they are being apart of.
I do agree with that there are a lot of people that see my success hunting and fishing at times that really don’t understand the effort I put in even in small bits of time here and there. Even in the last 3 years with a full time job I have managed to be in the field overnight 160 days with no success on big game. That sounds like a lot until you see it spread across 3 whole years where I spend the available weekends or odd extra days off along with 1 or 2 longer planned outings out every year. It is all an investment sometimes it pays back in wonderful ways when you do everything right and sometimes brings frustration that is really hard to continue through if you want to be part of the pursuit, but to me it is always worth at least getting out when I can.
Thanks Cliff for (respectfully) calling out Joe even though he's your friend! I think the State's Wildlife Department is also responsible for doing a better job of managing tag allocation. However, I don't really have hope because more tags sold = more money, and I'd bet that some of that money is just fattening some people's wallets.
I need to throw something in here: have the elk and wahoo been asked too? Like in a sense of sustainability.... What would they decide on? From that regard : flyfish. Catch and release more sustainable.
Cliff, around 15:30 you talk about the un written rules of elk hunting (or just hunting in general.) You should make a video on what those are, you might know some that i dont know.
It’s not just elk. It’s deer hunting too. I grew up hunting the same area in Utah with my dad the first half of my life. Back then there was no draw, just over the counter tags. Hardly ever ran into other hunters.(I mean not a ton the were the few groups we saw every year). Always filled or tags. Now it’s soo hard to draw that area cause it was big deer country plus so many more people hunting now. I still try for it but I’ve been getting second choice. Finally I just decided to do the dedicated hunter. And drew second choice area that is heavily hunted but also 15-45 minute drive depending and you’re in the mountains if I decide not to camp (Which I’d rather camp). but just saying I’m fine with it. Does it suck it’s hard to draw where I want to go? Yes. But at least I still get to go do what I enjoy with friends and family. And the dedicated hunter program is nice because I have 3 years to get to know the unit really well. Not that I don’t know it already I grew up in these mountains. But my son and my nephews are hunting, the new generation and I still get to pass down all I’ve learned to them. To me that what it’s really about. Getting a nice buck is just a bonus. My point is this. There will always be new hunters and new generations of hunters. Just how it is. Just gotta teach them to be respectful to others and to the wildlife. Life is change. Either adapt or don’t. May as well adapt. To me that the only option cause I’m not gonna stop doing what I love to do. Oh and I’ll say this. Don’t be hunt snobs. Nobody likes those guys. It’s not hard to be a respectful decent human being.
I think the people thay have the biggest gripe are the ones who live in these areas. If you've hunted in your backyard your whole life, it sucks when it becomes overrun. They could put in for other draw areas, but im sure some aren't able, and most are unwilling to pack up to fight over a new area. Im in the midwest, and the whitetail woods are experiencing the same things. Id never discourage anyone wanting to start hunting, but anyone going out without understanding social orders or ethics is in for a rough time. If we can all get along and possibly work together it would be great but so much of hunting is a solo sport with no room for spectators. The hunting public has had this same affect here in the midwest and eastern US on whitetail. New guys are showing up and burning up spots and going home in 3-5 days. No biggie until the next group shows up and it doesnt stop til December. Its a double edged sword for sure but ethics sportsmanship help a lot.
Matt Rinella comes across like a chick! Strength in numbers and our society is moving towards removing hunters all together. The other side is organized and has a lot of money and people. Not everyone grew up hunting or had some family member who hunted
People are focused on the wrong problems. HABITAT LOSS AND LAND ACCESS are a bigger deal than a few (thousands) more hunters in the field. The saddest part of all of this is that the people who are most vocal complaining about other hunters don't seem to be able to lift their voices towards taking action on policy in a pro-hunting, pro-wildlife, pro-habitat way. My experience is that newer hunters seem to be more engaged with conservation activities than the people whining about how hunting used to be in their favorite spots.
Thanks for the discussion on this, Cliff, and thanks for the education you've provided us all. I may only be 5 years into my hunting career (albeit a fisherman since birth), but I know in my bones I'm a hunter til I die. I do think some of the hunting popularity nowadays will fade. I'd add that the increased interest in Western big game hunting may benefit us all if it translates to increased conservation of habitat and improved resource management. But if we as stakeholders don't influence our government and culture in the direction of supporting our elk and their habitat, then yeah, there are just more takers in the woods making all the other takers uncomfortable. That said, the increased human traffic outdoors definitely deflates the thrill of being "out there" on your own, pursuing these wild animals. This coming year I have to adapt by studying smaller pockets of habitat bordering private land because that's where the pressure is pushing them. The increased hunting pressure may be my ally in the future but this year it just sucked.
The angle of discovering hunting has saved people or helped people - that is valid and that is great. If becoming a hunter has opened up positive things for people, full speed ahead. That is one aspect for sure. The other aspect (and perhaps what really the conversation should be) is the unrealistic hunting portrayed by the TH-cam celebrity hunters and how that skews the thought process of many newer public land/OTC hunters. The majority of hunts you see on TH-cam are not going to be something the "average" OTC/public land hunter will be doing. There are exceptions of course, but a vast majority of "average" folks do not have the following two items: 1) 30 days (or way more) to hunt each year 2) $10,000s of dollars to spend on hunts/hunting each year The average hunter may have good gear, and a good mindset, and even be in physical shape, but they don't have 1 and 2 above. #1 above is a huge gap between Joe Rogan/Cam Hanes, and the average person. If I have 7 days to hunt archery elk, and I show up at my trailhead and there are 10 trucks, I don't have 30 days or 45 days to go to plan B, C, and D. I am stuck with plan A and if I leave plan A, I lose hunting days looking for plan B. You say, well have plan B ready in advance - again - I work 40-50 hours/week for a living (nothing to do with hunting) and can't spend summer on the road making plans B and C as well as plan A. #1 and #2 above are linked, of course. It is easy for Joe Rogan to say - find another trailhead - he is wealthy and has unlimited time. He is totally disconnected from 99% of hunter's reality. Another huge disconnect (and fake out) is that a vast majority of the great hunts you see on TH-cam are not OTC tags. They may be on public land, but they are controlled tags with way less pressure in the unit. And, also, you can be sure Joe Rogan and Cam Hanes don't show up to a hunt with zero info and have to figure it out - they have "People" who are watching the animals/intimately familiar with the unit and have them on game in the first day if not the first morning. Not necessarily a guide formally, but someone who is helping in the background. Does it sound like I am hammering Rogan and Hanes - not at all. My whole point is.......the average guy, which is a vast majority, are not in their shoes and they are not in ours - so there is a huge disconnect in reality. TH-cam has significantly affected hunting just as it has significantly affected many other aspects of our culture and society worldwide. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. That ship has sailed. Hunting is a massive for profit industry that has grown exponentially in the past 10-15 years - driven greatly by social media. When something becomes popular the sad reality is the cost to do it will increase and that will create more and more of a gap. That is exactly what is happening with hunting. While I would like to think the states will manage it for the better, the states are also about revenue and when money is involved, normally the best choices are not made. State management of hunting is the only thing standing between a collapse in hunting for the average guy and something sustainable. Sadly, we are well along on the collapse for the average guy. The number of tags (resident, non-resident, OTC) needs to be reduced. If not, the collapse will continue to accelerate. Western states need to 1) go full choose your weapon for all species (you either bow hunt or rifle hunt, not both) 2) if you apply for a controlled tag you cannot buy an OTC tag if you don't draw. I can see the comments now...."This was my first year hunting with an OTC tag on public land with 20 trucks at the trailhead and on the first morning I was 1 mile from my truck and shot a 330 bull, public land hunting is still perfect." Yes, that happens and will still happen - but to that guy..........it won't happen to you again. You will hunt for 30 years and not kill that bull again. After 41 years of hunting in Montana, Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming...........I can tell you hunting is forever changed. Many of my close hunting friends with similar hunting experience - who killed a bull every year for years - have not killed a bull for the past few years. That is not a fluke and not for lack of effort and not because they have not hunted hard. The reality is the landscape has changed. Some may say for the worse, some may say for the better, that is a personal opinion. Spots they hunted every year are now very crowded, and they can't just go to another trailhead as Joe Rogan says they should - they have to be back to work in 5 days..........
There’s still an increase in other areas of hunting, here in Missouri there’s so many whitetail hunters, I’ve been told the public land looks like a “pumpkin patch”. (You have to wear blaze orange)
I saw the change in hog hunting with dogs when I lived down south. Before hog hunting became cool in the early 2000s you’d have your pick of places and generous seasons (all small game season) on state and federal land as a hog hunter you fell between the cracks of deer and turkey season . Private was great farmers would pay for us to roll through during growing seasons. So then discovery/animal planet or take your pic tv channel ran with the hogzilla and hog hunting shows. The changes I saw were fairly rapid and it set off a lot of reactions by the state on how they managed hunters for an animal that shouldn’t be there. It seemed like over night everyone with a dog became a hog hunter. That put pressure on animals that became harder to hunt and the amount of places to hunt them became crowded with hunters. Not the end of the world but for the state they changed how they went about managing hunting hogs with dogs. Instead of the longer generous season we always had they started to cut the days and make rules on state land limiting the amount of dogs or times you could hunt. Still wasn’t a problem in my eyes it’s public land we all can enjoy. But the real change I saw was in private land, farmers would pay for you to help control feral hogs during planting and growing seasons. Within a few years they charged you for hunting rights. As one farm told me he made more money off the hogs then he lost on them. I’m out of that game but have been in the professional hunting I industry for 20 years. A lot of the guys who jumped into that world don’t do it anymore so in my eyes it was a flash in the pan. But I know the changes the dnr made still effect the sport.
There is def positives and negatives with Cam and Joes influence. But people have been hunting private land since the dawn of land ownership. People have been engaged in trading money or resources for access to land to hunt ,graze cattle,etc for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The only people who complain about private land typically are the people who can’t afford it. And private land owners can help conservation efforts better than the states sometimes
Funny I'm in the Carribean to surf and spearfish myself right now and agree that you see similar trends in all outdoor sports with limited resources - backcountry skiing as well. Surfing probably experienced this first starting with the 60s. Where it's netted out is that more people are into the sport and that's a good with more infrastructure around it. There is a "paradise lost" element from crowding and aggressive behavior from locals vs non locals, as well as the newer participants not respecting etiquette, but there are still non-competitive waves/breaks and hidden gems and the popularity seems to come in waves. I can see why if it's gotten harder for you and more expensive to have to drive further from all the east coasters and city people getting into your family spots you'd be bent out of shape, especially if you see influencers profitting from ruining your past experience. But if there are more people involved and they all have a right to participate, we need to find ways to accomodate them by conserving and regulating the resources better, increasing tag fees or reducing tags and encouraging more hunting of invasive/overpopulated species (whitetail vs elk) and fund more wardens to crackdown on poachers and side by sides on non-motorized trails. I remember hearing when I did my hunters ed that hunting is in decline in America and hunters were getting sidelined from public policy and it seems like that trend has turned. There's a lot of good from more hunters, from more advocacy for conservation to personal benefits from Americans getting out into the wilderness, especially with some 40%+ of us now being obese and 18% suffering from depression. Also quite a few veterans use hunting to adjust back into society. It would be great if hunting returned to being a core part of the American identity again.
Im commimg up on 10 years elk hunting. 100 percent unsuccessful. From an introverts perspective most of these old school "protect our spot" people are a thorn to the community.
I'm convinced those TRT bros could shoot a world record 30 yards off the trail head and never talk about it because they couldn't tell you how many miles they hiked.
The entire problem comes from the "its public land and its legal so ill do it if i want" crowd. To many influencers dont take the time to teach the ethics, just wanna show their success.
In some ways, the attention these guys have brought to the sport has been amazing. In other ways it's also been devastating. It was already trending that way long before Rogan though. Huntin fool, Eastman's, Steve Rinella, Randy Newberg and guys like that were already throwing out unit numbers and things that are detrimental to pressure. All that being said, Rogan's elitist attitude, "find a new trail head" ...really crappy viewpoint. He'd feel differently if he hunted like an average Joe.
One of the things increased involvement in hunting brings along that you didn't mention was more advocacy. If no one hunts public lands and no one appreciates them for what they provide to the population then they disappear.
Clif congrats on Wahoo. I was able to do some spearfishing when I was stationed in Hawaii. You should go to big island and continue your journey. Great perspective ty
I think the whole "hunting videos causing mass growth" is worry over a bit of fad. Some people jump into it because it looks cool, but they rarely last long. Either no success makes them give up or they kill something and realize the work involved. Or, bad weather, etc. Hunting has a way of sorting itself (eventually) out to those who belong out there... Where I live in WNY, there seems to be more "used to go" hunters than new, young, hunters.
I think people seeing how awesome it is has really made it difficult to find and hunt elk . But it’s only going to get worse. It’s been Randy Newburg , hushing. Born raised out doors they all have created this tough situation
Absolutely! Go hunt is to blame as well, They've all cut the learning curve in half for people that would have probably Never made the first step to western hunting
Kinda like you said. If your a local find a season that’s not that popular and hunt it or hunt during the week. Joe and cam have no clue about hunting public land and what it’s like I think they had to dedicate a season to hunting one of these places I think the mentality would change. I mostly feel bad for the local guy that gets pushed out of his area
Hey Cliff, curious what you think of the common line of: "more new hunters = more advocates of the sport." Meaning, preserving hunting rights, habitat access, etc. I just started big game hunting this year, so I can't speak on the above question. However, I'm a big fisherman for Salmon/Steelhead in the PNW. That has seen a massive influx in anglers the last 5+ years (due partly to similar TH-cam personalities). However, there are less fish and less access than ever before. State wildlife agencies, "environmental" groups, big corporations (Patagonia), have pushed a narrative that hatchery fish are bad and have closed dozens of rivers based off that. I don't expect you to know much about this or have an opinion. But, it seems like the old guys haven't ever needed to fight for their right to fish so they don't, and the new guys still don't really understand what's going on. I have not yet seen the angling masses standing together to fight and win against the concentrated (and well financed) opposition. So the influx of new anglers really has not reaped any benefits for overall fishing opportunities. The last 5 years (during the influx) we've lost more opportunities than ever. TLDR; I am wondering if you've seen examples of these new hunters making a difference in disputes, opportunities, etc. that impact the future of the sport.
Will also add (at least for fishing) the common attitude from older guys is "I used to catch a dozen Steelhead a day. This sucks now." and disengage from the sport when it's still worth fighting for. The New guys say: "Holy crap I caught a steelhead!" when in reality the situation is pretty dire. Both groups are right and wrong in different ways. Curious if this exists in hunting too and is part of the problem.
It makes sense that a "stronger minority" would have more resources to defend what they enjoy, advocate for more opportunity, etc... If you think about the comeback of most big game species in North America, post a market hunting era, if there had been fewer sportsmen or even if a couple specific hunters hadn't been around, the results would have been way different. It's not different today, Joe or Cam could use their exposure to shift the majority's (Non-hunters) view on all sorts of policies, laws, ballot initiatives coming down the pipeline, etc... when it comes to hunting.
The comments Rogan made to Dudley about sharing spots on public land should also be highlighted. I like Rogan, but his lack of experience with public land hunting is abundantly clear.
Cam and Joe are your biggest advocates for hunting in general. They even promote hunting. So what Cam has worked his entire to get to where he is at and his life was spent hunting public land and pushing farther and farther for success. It’s taken Cam 40 years to get to hunt the land he does. Rogan gas had sone of the best mentors in archery to help him out. He does hunt public land but also he has friends that own private but the animals are still animals no matter what.
You failed to mention a huge aspect of this topic: $$$$$$ Nothing morally wrong with a guy pursing hunting as a new interest, nothing morally wrong with introducing people to hunting….but I have a huuuge problem with making money off of recruiting more hunters. Not just new hunters, but new hunters who then turn around and try their damnedest to be influencers just like their TH-cam celebs that they adore. It’s a nasty cycle that lowers the quality of the hunt and will in time make hunting much more restrictive and less of an opportunity afforded to hunters. Hunting will soon become jerking off to hunting TH-cam videos but never actually getting to do it except for once in a blue moon or if you win the powerball.
I didn’t talk about the money aspect, along with a bunch of other parts of this discussion… because it almost needs its own hour 😂 The short of it is I think being vocal about hunting has actually cost Joe money. Obviously, Cam is making a good living off his brand/social media but I still personally don’t know his primary motivation. I can’t conclude his primary motivation is money just because it appears he is now doing well financially. As for me… I don’t care what people think. Fact is if I stopped all this and went back to a gig at a computer I’d be making 20x the money I do off this. It’s economic idiocy. I actually think that’s the case for most these TH-camrs that people fear. It’s not a great business, so there has to be other motivations.
@@CliffGray Randy Newburg, Corey Jacobsen, Ryan Lampers, Hushin, Born and Raised, Gohunt, Eastmans taghub, etc. You can’t charge 100 bucks for a yearly renewing subscription to a course or exclusive content and have and have 5-10K subscribers, have corporate sponsors, have podcasts and online forums, charge $5,000 for a hunting summit and have 100 guys attend, be paid money to appear at banquets, sell gear from a gear shop, have contracts with Amazon prime, and not make money. Some (like newburg, and already Steve Rinella) having the end goal of a huge big money buyout. Recruitment of new hunters is literally their way of not only making a living, but setting up for some serious wealth. YouTubing is a dinky part of these guys portfolio
I’m not saying they don’t make money. I do however believe it’s a horrible industry to get rich within, just on the pure economics. So I’m assuming they have some additional motivations beyond $… I could be totally wrong. I can’t read people’s minds. The bigger question is why does that matter? It just gets back to the same argument… the people who they motivate to get into hunting are gaining something from doing so… otherwise they wouldn’t do it. So the fact someone is making money on it doesn’t change that we are debating the value of a new hunter’s time spent hunting versus the value of a historic hunter’s time spent hunting.
@@CliffGray yes I agree that is the main debate. I am also primarily concerned with the new hunter that is not even considered: my kids and the next generation. If my kids have to either wait 5 years to draw a resident elk tag, or they have to hunt for 5 years before killing an elk with a resident elk tag, I’m not sure they are going to have much interest in hunting when there is so many other influences pulling them to other things that could become their “hobbies”. Over recruitment of 20-40 year old new hunters means decreased opportunity in some form. Period. You can only “adapt” so much when considering this young group of new hunters.
When Matt Rinella said on his brothers podcast, "maybe 1/4 of the people at the trailhead were there because of social media, but it doesn't really matter, I want them all gone", it's pretty clear he's out in the weeds. Get there earlier or find another trailhead.
Has social media and even all the new mapping systems made it more crowded which in turn more difficult, yes. Have they ruined hunting, NO. I archery hunt for the level of difficulty and challenge. It makes me work harder, and I'm okay with that.
I think crowding issues are probably localized. I'm a duck hunter in Iowa - not a big destination duck state. I think adventurous western hunts are the big ticket right now so western hunting is crowded right now. Long term, though, I believe promoting hunting is worthwhile. The majority of hunters are 50/60/70 years old, I believe and am concerned about a lot of hunters aging out with fewer new hunters entering the pursuit. Several decades ago and before, kids got into hunting primarily from their fathers and grandfathers but over the last few decades, there are fewer fathers in the home and more and more urbanization which indicates that kids have less opportunity to get into hunting the way they did in the past, so I think that maybe some of these huntinf influencers play an important role. Hunting is not a large community and I think, rather than fight amongst ourselves and block other hunters from entering the sport because they saw Cam Haines kill an elk, we should find ways to work together to increase game populations and hunting access. Those were a couple of the points I tried to make to Matt Rinella when I was on his podcast several months back but I probably didn't articualte them as well as I would have liked at the time
A couple of points. First, living in a draw only state that doesn't have a method for preference points, the massive influx hurts my already limited chances at drawing tags. Second, a couple of questions about out of state hunting. My taxpayer dollars go to the management of wildlife in my state. Why should any person from out of state get an elk tag when there are residents who don't? As a New Mexican, we are high crime, terrible schools, low paying jobs, and awful infrastructure. How is it fair that I live here and put up with the bad parts of NM, but then don't reap the positives? Third, what are your thoughts on monetizing our wildlife? I understand the argument about stimulating the economy with out of state money. My concern is that landowners are given tags for free from the state and then the landowners sell them for exorbitant prices that precludes residents of that state from being able to purchase them. On this course, how do we prevent ourselves from becoming like Europe where hunting is only accessible to the super wealthy? The fact of the matter is there are limited hunting opportunities. Not everyone gets to go. That being said, the influx of new people creates even more demand. How does this not inevitably lead to hunting opportunities increasing to the point where the 'cultural' hunters aren't completely priced out? And, since you touched on the idea of morality, here's my last question for you. Given that there are limited opportunities and that hunting does provide a purpose, reason, motivation, and direction for a lot of people, old hunters and new, who should get the tag? The person is a resident who grew up hunting with his dad and grandad and now as an adult structures his life around hunting season or an out of stater who hears Joe rogan talk about the health benefits of elk meat but couldnt care less about hunting tradition and conservation?
As a follow up thought to explain my perspective. I grew up doing wrestling and Jiujitsu from the time I was 8 yrs old. I also grew up hunting and went on my first deer hunt at 10-11. As a kid, neither one of these activities was 'cool'. Jiujitsu was lame karate where you didn't hit anyone and hunting just meant you were a hillbilly who had a thing for your. cousin. As an adult I'm a bjj black belt and I've been shooting a bow since 2010. Both of these activities have blown up, and for good reason. The difference is that Jiujitsu has plenty of room for everyone and the arrival of a new student doesn't mean that another student who's been training for years has to leave. In hunting, the simple fact is that for every new hunter who puts in to draw for a tag that means a more senior hunter loses their opportunity to participate at all. And before anyone says 'go buy an OTC tag', my state does not offer OTC elk tags. And should I actually want to go through the trouble of having to travel to another state, I again ask, why should I have to? New residents drawing tags is one thing, but the idea that some mega wealthy out of stater like Joe Rogan can take an NM tag and then tell me, a resident, to 'go find another trailhead' is ridiculous. Yea Joe, pay a third of my yearly salary for a hunt in the Gila while I get relegated to finding tag out of my own state. FOH.
Thanks for the comment. On why there are nonresident tag quotas - Given the case law on wildlife ownership in the US, it's a good question. Regardless of who pays for what, the law has settled on that the State's own all the wildlife within their borders in trust for the residence of that State. It's my opinion that nonresident quotas exists for three reasons. 1. Reciprocity - Colorado lets nonresidents hunts, so New Mexico does also, etc... 2. The economics - by charging more for nonresident tags it's a funding mechanism for State game departments. It's what keeps resident tags so cheap. For example, Colorado's wildlife managers would be broke if they went one season without selling nonresident tags. If they attempted to offset it by charging more for residents tags, resident elk tags would be thousands of dollars. 3. A lot of these big game animals spend the majority of their life on Federal land. I've seen studies... if I recall correctly in Colorado the guess is that over 60%+ of elk live 90-100% of their life on Federal land (BLM, USFS, Wilderness). Federal tax money is funding the management of that habitat. On the private land tag program in New Mexico - I don't have much context in New Mexico so take these as general thoughts. Just like any government program this type of program is prone to abuse... However, I am generally an advocate for some level of private land tag program because public wildlife managers do an abysmal job of creating hunting opportunities versus their private land manager counterparts. It's not even close.... It may not seem like it sometimes when out in the field hunting, but adjacent well-managed private habitat does improve hunting across regions. On your question about who should get the tag... the way you put it, the answer seems obvious. However, this is one subject where opinions really don't matter because their is case law around it. States own the wildlife in their borders in trust for the residents of that State - this includes current hunters, nonhunters and future hunters. There is no legal preference or superior ownership right based on seniority or reason for hunting. Should it be different? I think there is a long debate that could be had - but for now the law is pretty clear on it so it doesn't matter much.
@@CliffGray I appreciate the reply and the perspective. I can't say there isn't validity to your train if thought. That being said, in response to dysfunctional state government management of wildlife, I would say instead of doing more bad things to make a bad system work, we should fix the system. If we all agree that wildlife is a natural resource that belongs to all residents, then funding should not rely solely on one specific subset of the citizens. I can't believe I'm advocating for giving more money to the government, yet here I am (wanting to punch myself in the face). As for federal dollars, I would contend that despite federal funding going to state populations, that does not necessarily entitle out of staters to state residents opportunities IMO. If fed funding goes to Florida and is used to protect coastal waters and game fish species and CO fed funds go funding elk and mule deer management, then it would seem like a 1 to 1 benefit, would it not? Scarcity exists in both cases. There's only so many fish and only so many deer/elk. Is it fair for someone to take a spearfishing opportunity in their state and then also take an elk/deer opportunity from a Colorado resident? One person getting two hunting opportunities while someone else gets zero doesn't sound right to me. One that same note, how do you feel about one person taking multiples of one game species per year? For example, getting elk tags in Utah and Colorado. I would be interested to explore federal regulation of wildlife so far as it precludes 1 individual getting 2-3 elk tags in one season. At the end of the day, under the current systems, I don't see how hunting doesn't become an activity that doesn't become accessible to the super wealthy.
I think hunting right now is really popular and as with all things it’s a cycle. Will it ever die down to the good ole days? Probably not, but give it 5 or so years and I bet you’ll see less people interested in hunting. Humans are social creatures that tend to follow trends and norms. Right now hunting is just the cool thing to do, something else will emerge or come back in popularity. Thats my guess anyways.
Interesting perspective on it. Makes sense if you look at other activities, particularly when you consider that it's going to get more difficult to plan hunts, more barriers to entry, etc.. with increased demand.
Arizonas hunts have been trashed by the newberg bs, and the hunting public. You can’t go anywhere now without endless out of state plates with huge groups of 20-30 people hunting out of multiple campers. Every hill has a hunter on it. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Cliff, I have followed a lot of your advise and have been able to put Elk in the freezer. In fact I have done that in general tag units in Wyoming without ever setting foot in the unit before the actual hunt. Yes I did see a lot of hunters riding their side by sides up and down the dirt roads, But like you said, if you go at least one mile further than where those guys can get on their side by sides and you find the elevation where the elk are and stay dark to dark we found Elk and NO HUNTERS. Also the state does not give out any more tags than what they did ten years ago. Maybe some guys are mad because it takes longer to draw a tag. Also I have found that when I do run into another hunter my experience has been positive, Keep up the good work and Thank you.
I'd say it's a double edged sword. Whether people want to admit it or not, hunting was dying for years. There's been a constant downward trend in licenses sold and money for wildlife management was drying up leading to less of a say in how wildlife was managed. The influx of hunters brings money back into the system, increases our say and brings more people to our side of the debate when it comes to wildlife management, firearms laws, and outdoor access cases. That means there's going to be a lot more competition though and if we want hunting to be around for our kids or grand kids, we're going to have to suck it up and know that it's going to be harder with more competition. Hunting can be too much of an old boys club at times and those never withstand the test of time. Those of us who have experience need to teach and educate the newer hunters instead of shunning and denigrating them. We were all new once and so one had to teach us, now is our turn to pay it forward. As for Joe, I like a lot of stuff he has to say but this is a case of him just being ignorant and not having the same experience with his cushy paid hunts. He's not hunting public land 10+ miles out and dealing with new hunters that may be doing dumb things. His hunting group may be the only people for 10 miles in any direction versus dodging hunters every few hundred yards. He'll just never understand the issue he's commenting on here like the average guy will.
I think onx has more of an effect than Joe and Cam on social media. Years ago people were afraid of getting lost in the backcountry, now they have a way out. When I started elk hunting the backcountry the only option were topo maps. Big difference!
I've been saying the same thing for awhile. Suddenly it's far harder to get away from people that had no business being in the back country 10 years ago. That said, I do love using it hahaha. But man I would happily lose the ability to go back to pouring over topo maps and have some solitude back
Not just onx but gps in general !
I definitely feel like I am one of the guys whose life has been saved by hunting. Prior to getting into it I did not have anything I was passionate about in my life. I had a "good career", a car, a house, and some hobbies but nothing pushing me to excel in any aspect of my life. I was content to go through the motions each day and spend my free time playing video games or wasting time on the internet. My Dad is a life long hunter and he took me on a lot of hunting trips as a kid. I killed my first Mule Deer with him, and almost shot a Bull Elk. But over all, I was just along for the ride and was never really interested in it. As a young kid I found driving around and glassing to be boring, the hiking to be physically difficult, and the cold conditions uncomfortable. Fast forward to 6 years ago I started accompanying my Dad on Elk hunts and I harvested my first elk, a young cow. While the experience was memorable, I still wasn't invested in hunting. I was there just to spend time with my Dad.
The year or so after that hunt I started watching Meat Eater on the recommendation of a friend. Rinella articulated a perspective on hunting and showed a passion for the sport in a way that my Dad was just not able to. He has always been a man of few words and would always say that he hunted to put food on the table for the family. But the more I watched hunting videos and listened to other men explain their whys for hunting I started to see that my Dad's brief explanation was not the full picture. Needing meat didn't explain why he went to Alaska in the early 90s to hunt Bear, Moose and Caribou. Why he spent 30 days scouting and hunting for a Ram above Aspen. Or why he had been an ultramarathon runner. The more I learned about hunting and what it took to be successful, the more I learned about my Dad and the more I developed a new found admiration for him. At his peak in the mid 90s he was doing what Cam does now, running Pike's Peak or Leadville in the summer and hunting sheep, goats, or elk in the fall. Coming to this new perspective on my Dad made me want to go on my own adventures, test myself physically and mentally, and have my own stories to tell. I will always be grateful to the Rinella, Newberg, Molls for sharing their hunting adventures, their knowledge, and most importantly their passion for the sport. I am now 5 years into being obsessed with hunting. It's given me a completely new relationship with my Dad. He is now not only my Dad but my mentor, my best friend, and inspiration.
I killed my first Bull Elk in 2021 with my Dad at my side. Once the Bull was down, we hugged each other. He had tears in his eyes as he told me he was proud of me. That's a memory we will both have with me the rest of our lives. And it wouldn't have happened had it not been for other hunters sharing their experiences on social media.
I love it man! appreciate you taking the time to share your experience.
Hell yeah! Great story dude. Truly happy for you and I appreciate the perspective you shared.
Joe & Cam hunt extremely well managed non pressured elk on huge tracks of private land. That is not real elk hunting nor is it realistic for most people
Exactly, maybe Joe shouldn’t be commenting on public land hunting if he’s never tried it.
Cam used to be a diy backpack hunter but he did it when there was FAR LESS pressure on public land and when he wasn't sponsored. Now his sponsors and businesses can basically pay for him to go on these extravagant hunts on private land. And that's ok. He cut his teeth doing it the hard way.
Joe Rogan on the other hand gets no sympathy from me. He's just some rich guy with lots of friends. If he thinks elk hunting is "hard" on a $25,000 private land elk hunt, he'd turn into the biggest whiney bitch on a diy OTC backpack Colorado elk hunt. If you dropped him into one of those units he'd quit within 3 days because there would be no bugles, no fresh elk sign, people everywhere, and he doesn't know how to hunt. His guides and friends do...
Joe hunt’s public land more than most people realize. He also hunts private to. Joe has also worked harder than most to get what he has. Cam has bustehis a$$ for years to get to hunt the land he does. He would spend days hunting the hard back country hunts that we public land hunters hunt. He just has been doing it longer so it’s easier for him now. It wasn’t just given it was earned through hard work and meeting the right people. ITS HARD WORK.
@@Farmersforever1993 could you please link the Instagram story, TH-cam video, or magazine article where Joe Rogan went on a SOLO backpack hunt on public land?
@@jackbuendgen389 he wouldnt last long up here in Alaska in September
“Find another trailhead stupid” is a pretty crazy statement to make when you have never been to a trailhead.
He's entirely tone-deaf and disconnected from the reality that "regular" hunters live in. He went from never hunting a day in his life, went on a handful of (assumedly free) fully guided hunts, to being an "expert hunter" over the course of a year to 18 months. He's got all the time in the world, never had to worry about PTO, money, or access to animals. He could blast out a tweet and get free guided hunts and/or restricted access hunts pouring into his DM's, in a heartbeat. I understand he probably means well but he comes across as such a douche when he speaks down on "average Joe" hunters, from such a privileged position
Why do you assume he's never been to a trailhead?
Yeah.. your's is a hyperbolic reply to a frankly dumb comment by Joe. The # of trailheads are limited, so "find another one stupid" is, well, stupid. I love Joe, but I've not heard much talk about the facts that he has the means to hunt very high $$ private. Cam.. well, I'm pretty sure he spends a lot of time on public as well.
Ya I didn’t like that comment either, and there is lots more hunters then years before but I still can get into the same herds I always have at least in Arizona.
Social media has ruined it
In my 60+ years of hunting reloading and rifle collecting I have seen a few changes and I think the Covid episode pushed a lot of people into the outdoors and once they were out there and felt the fresh air and freedom they made it a regular part of their lives to have a release from all the terrible things going on! Thanks for giving us an update Cliff on all the chatter talk on this subject!
"find another trailhead stupid" says the guy who primarily pays for private, landowner and guided hunts
He’s got money, what’s your point? There are public land hunters that are still successful every year. You are not entitled to a piece of public land just because you’ve been going there for a few years. You don’t pay any more for it than anyone else
@@bigz5262 nothing against him having money or paying to play, but he's talking shit to people that are annoyed at over pressured public land (alot of it due to influencers like himself) , while at the same time he doesn't have to hunt that same over pressured land.
It's Pretty hypocritical of him, and why he's getting so much backlash over that comment
@@lukeonderko8696 it’s not hypocritical. He said find a different trail head and that’s what he does. He’s talking shit about people whining, not people that are a little annoyed
@@bigz5262he finds another trailhead? He’s likely never been on a trailhead lol. Dude couldn’t kill a squirrel on his own.
@@F22Ra he’s probably been on more trailheads than most of the entitled crybabies whining about crowded trailheads. But yeah he probably always has a guide with
I’ve been a OTC elk hunter for 35 years in CO. When the state closed down all the southern units to OTC all those hunters went north they had no choice. If you want to post a hunt fine but these young people video the trail head and wonder why they are full up next year. Takes a lifetime to learn a unit and how to hunt it and be successful. Rogan making that statement is like me telling him about UFC fighting that I know nothing about.
It’s demoralizing and sad to think about what it has become and that young hunters will never see what it use to be.
I’m in the exact opposite shoes, been spearing my whole life, but only recently starting elk hunting. We love seeing new people getting into spearfishing, and one of my greatest joys in the sport now is teaching the newbies what we do and watching them go through the milestones. My experience so far in the mountains has been the same. Almost everyone I’ve run into, both other new guys and seasoned locals, have not only been super friendly but also extremely helpful and willing to share some knowledge with us. I think it comes down to one factor…respect gets respect.
very true man! We gotta to some trip swaping! Nailed it with the last three words. It's amazing how some folks have issues with everyone no matter the endeavor, then some folks have zero issues. I think "respect gets respect" is the primary difference.
Matt rinellas argument and perspective on the commercialization of the hunting market does seem to have many valid points, and hoping there'll be a decrease of hunting influencers doing for the gear, clout, likes and follows.
The other day i was thinking how nice it will be when the Joe rogan podcasters give it up and find something more popular. My neighbor fell into this whole thing, bought Two bows 3 yeti coolers and about 3k worth of sitka. lol I'm not jealous or mad about the new hunters, its nice knowing most give it up. The ones who stick around for 10+ years it probably means something to them.
Without watching the entire video (yet, I will), my kneejerk reaction is 2020 has in many changed, or ruined, hunting. The lockdowns drove people outdoors who wouldn't have otherwise been there. Some went back to the city aftewords, some got a taste and came back for more. I can say that in 2020, in one area i hunted archery, where there used to be 2 or 3 solo hunters like myself, in 2020 there were multiple GROUPS of hunters. It was like rifle season, but with bows. A lot of those guys you could tell by what they were doing, what they were wearing, were new.
Ever since 2020, the popularity of hunting has EXPLODED. People got on the self reliance train. There's a lot of misconceptions about the "bounty" of the mountains I think. I think a lot of people see hunting as a means of self reliance. Too many shows on TV. 2020, caused SOOO many things. A large migration of people from the west coast, a huge uptick in hunting intrest like i said. Many of these people started to listen to, seek out, things they otherwise might not have, like hunting on social media. Using my channel as an example, I was recording my own hunts since 2018. Up until 2020, I had a total of 30 subscribers. Now, I've 670+. Not a large sum by any means, BUT, I do not use hash tags, I avoid certain keywords, I don't mention where I live, I don't ask anyone to subscribe, just doing my own thing ,and not trying to make a spectical of myself, and yet my channel keeps growing without ANY effort on my part. Personally, I see that as a trend, but it all started with 2020.
Voices like Rogan amplify that interest, and have wider reach, but I honestly think 2020 kicked everything into overdrive and it hasn't stopped. ANother example, OTC tags for my area used to sell out in 2 months in 2018/2019. (EDIT: correction, in 2018 tags sold out in 2 months, in 2019, two weeks) Ever since 2020, they've been selling out in less than ONE DAY. Kind of a clue.
I hear ya. I agree that covid accelerated it all.
Just curious, has it always been the same quota of tags?
If so, why do you think you are seeing more pressure? The hunters with the tags hunting more? going into places that used to get hunted less? etc...
There are so many angles to talk about on this topic... the rest of the video I just give an explanation of why I don't fault people for introducing others to hunting.... The thing is I have a similar feeling about some of the other things you mention... self-reliance, living in more remote areas, etc... I battle with this because again - I believe it improves peoples' lives but at the same time acknowledge it has some negative affects on those already in that life style.
This is very accurate. Before 2020 in utah you could buy a tag not to far before the hunt. Now you have to be in line at 7 am day they open for sale and they sell out in hours.
@@CliffGray Tag quotas for general season have been the same. From what I've observed, its a lot of new hunters, or perhaps hunters new to the state who recently moved here, say from Oregon or Washington. Ever since 2020, there's been more changes on the mountain than just hunting. Recreationalists as well, not just hunters. The mountains are getting trashed, and worn. In some area, that I've hunted for several years, the road that used to be loose dirt, is now hard packed. It looks like brown asphalt now. There's just THAT much more traffic. Many of these areas I've abandoned and no longer hunt.
Bonus negative side effect is ALL of this, puts pressure on the elk. Can really go down some rabbit holes on this subject.
I'm a hunter's ed instructor. Every year we are concerned about the numbers of new hunters declining. Either we are recruiting new hunters or we are trying to keep others out of the woods. We can't have it both ways.
I think it seems more crowded because access to private land has dwindled so much. I have no problem with landowners leasing out their land to bring in some extra money, but it does increase the pressure on public land.
Yes brother! well said and succinct. We lose way more tags to drought, loss of access, development, and loss of winter habitat than we do to competing hunters who learned about it from Rinella, Newburg, or Rogan. New hunters means new people who care about what transpires in the state houses.
Cliff you're the man. We recognize that you do what you do to help people, and that's honorable. Guys like Cam and Joe do it for follows, attention and to appear macho. I've learned infinitely more from your videos than I have out of those two gentlemen combined. Am I jealous of their hunts and success? No doubt. But I don't think they're helping anyone if that's the question.
Cliff i love your take on the issue and as a new elk hunter myself being last year was my first time trying (didnt get squat) i just had an OTC cow tag, this year i put in a lot more time scouting and E scouting the unit i was going to hunt and got another OTC cow tag in a unit pretty close to town with a lot of pressure and multiple trucks at every trail head, i tagged out opening day 2 hours after first light! It was the best feeling in the world and i thank you for all the great content you put out i feel it has really helped me. Keep up the great work.
TH-cam and social media has completely ruined hunting.
Great video Cliff. All I can say is that trends have a spike and then a drop off, hunting is no different. We’re currently in a spike in people getting into hunting, some people will fall off in the next few years. If hunting is your way of life hang in there and adapt when you have to, don’t blame others.
Human nature. Completely agree.
8:44 - agreed, you’re not doing something morally wrong by starting a new activity. Yes it’s a net positive for YOU, but it is not necessarily a net positive for others.
IT’s easy for someone like Joe to say “oh you’re just going to have to adapt” because he’s super wealthy, and it was easy for him to come into the sport, being guided and mentored by someone and with the money and access to dramatically shorten his learning curve and lower the barrier to entry that so many others had to work through with blood sweat and tears. It also totally ignores how poor many, many rural hunters are. I grew up in NW Montana. We lived there year-round, when it wad brutally cold and economically difficult. We hunted, literally, to have meat to eat. That’s entirely different than some dude with a poo ton of money flying in, using top of the line gear (not grampas old 30.06 and hand me down boots) with guided knowledge and apps that take half a ton of the work out of it. Often these are guys with no local knowledge and as, Joe clearly demonstrated, no real concern for the local community. I like Joe a lot, and I’m a die hard capitalist, but his statement clueless, and reflective of his short time in the sport. It’s also clear he’s pretty unaware of just how finite a resource “trail heads” are, or that we’ve lost a ton of access in just the last decade.
As you mentioned, you must acknowledge that you are impacting someone else experience, most likely, you are impacting it negatively. And, you are likely riding on their coattails, meaning, you’re likely impacting someone who has bled for the sport in a way you haven’t. They didn’t have youtube to teach them. They learned by hard work, trial, error, time invested, where newcomers now are learning a smattering of highlights from outube videos and with apps on their phone. The learning curve is shortened and the barrier to entry lowered so much, that newcomers to the sport aren’t “paying their dues” in the way that those who came before them did, and as such, they’re not the stewards of sport, the land, the animals, that they should be, and their “hunting etiquette” is pretty poor.
I think the correct response is, if you want to be morally right, joining a sport can’t be only about your benefit. It can’t be just about “saving your life”. You have to say, if I’m doing this, I’m doing it for me, AND I’m going to make the hunting landscape a better place. I’m going to give back. I’m going to do it responsibly but I’m also going to be an advocate, be a voice for expansion of land access, hunting rights etc. The only way hunters are benefited by more hunters coming into the sport is if they do something to make the sport better. Everyone carries some weight.
What is Joe Rogan doing with his platform in this regard? It’s one thing to go on cool guided hunts with youtube hunters and edit the content to make it look like the coolest thing in the world, and drum up interest, but if you love hunting, be involved in a more meaningful way than that, and be humble enough to know that “just find another trail head” may work for guys that can fly anywhere, it doesn’t work for the family that grew up in that town and are scraping to get by.
Great topic Cliff. The comparison to spearfishing is one that hits home to me, I started freediving and spearing 15 years ago and saw the same shift. Interestingly enough, I have trad/big wall climbed for 20 years and noticed the same shift over the same timeframe. Walls and routes started to crowd 10 years ago, and really increased in the last 5. Spearing was the same shift at the same timeframe. I think overall there’s more people in the world, and the advent of GoPro cameras and TH-cam/IG have made learning anything from auto mechanics to spearing or hunting much more accessible. I remember the only way to learn climbing or spearing was through mentors like you had, or sparse information on forums. For better or worse, I think it’s just the shift seen with access to information.
Spot on. I agree.
10 years ago, most people couldn’t find Colorado on a map if they tried. But thanks to Eastman’s Hunting Journal, Huntin’ Fool, Epic Outdoors, they’ll tell you where to go and how to get there.
Second problem is better fitness of hunters. When I was a kid guys over 40 had heart problems and emphysema and could only road hunt. Now 60 year old guys are packing it in 10 miles.
Overall people are not in better shape. Are there some sure and many those are the people who are motivated enough to do the backcountry hunting.
@@cjberan Haha.
All due respect. But I don’t see better fitness of hunters as a problem…
@@ericharrington2509 until they outcompete you..
The level of sourpuss bitching in these comments is wilder than any place cliff has hunted
This is an important conversation. I can really see both sides. I'm an avid public land hunter in North Idaho. I've seen a lot more crowding over the last ten years for sure. It's pushed me to find new spots, hike a little further, and have backup plans. I know a lot of older guys (late 50s and 60s) that complain all the time. Or have even quit. Always talking about the good ole days. It's a double edged sword for sure.
You gotta feel for those guys that can't quite put in the miles anymore, though. It's easy to tell a 35 year old to walk further or spend more on fuel, but some guys might be extending themselves too much to hunt anymore and might be left with just reminiscing.
5 years ago many hunters were saying “we need to bring up more hunters!” Well now we have a lot more and the chant has changed. My observation is that the new hunters who were brought in by the bro-gospel of Jo and Cam are stereotypically...assholes... Joes comment “find another trailhead stupid” perfectly illustrates the attitudes of a lot of these new hunters. Its easy to hate the new guy whose attitude is f-you im going to do what I want how I want to when and where I want to. Im just hoping this is a fad.
I think your conclusion that adapting is a better strategy then just whining is correct. However, some of us older guys who can count our remaining seasons on our fingers, have invested in learning areas and tuning strategies that are being overrun by younger, fresher, eager legs. It would be nice if some of these social media influencers would stress and pass on more basic etiquette that would help mitigate some of the conflict. Groups of exuberant buglers pounding through miles of bedding areas, bumping critters to the next unit or private really does suck. ... I know, suck it up buttercup.... and I will, but with a bit of whine.... Good stuff, on point, as usual. Thanks!
It’s all about respect to other outdoorsmen/outdoorswomen. I’ve been obsessed with hunting since I was four and have spent the last 48 years chasing that passion. I’ve backcountry elk hunted for the past 26 years in Colorado on public land with great success and have taken 22 bulls in those 26 years. Over the past ten years or so, the amount of hunters in the area I hunt have increased but it hasn’t been a detriment. I’ve actually embraced the fact that more like minded people are getting involved. The fact that the voting public has made the choice to reintroduce wolves back to the western slope is a different story. What we’ve loved for years will soon not be obtainable.
You said many times in the state you reside. The problem with that is tons of non resident hunter's are adding pressure because of social media.
Where I live in Europe it's residents only. No out of staters whatsoever. We have an elk (red stag) plague here, I got no bag limit, just a small fee per kill for the state. Can't complain 😅
Money has taken the place of skillz, every Tom ,Dick and Harry wants to be a back country elk slayer... the reason for hunting is food not antlers again Money is the driver... bow season is a joke, 80 to 90 % let off 100 yard shots with a bow and the famous TV quote "lets let him sit overnight" add muzzle loaders with scopes, sabot's and weather protected ignition have ruined that hunt as well. Both of the above hunts were designed to be primitive hunts Money ruined that as well..... todays elk hunters are for the most part tv hunters.. the days of family elk hunting are drawing to a close .
Bahaha 100 yard shots with a bow?! You are definitely talking out your ass lol. Gear that ruins hunts? GTFOH.
BINGO MR.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,They Bow hunt to be more sporting, but then they move a Tiny Home into the woods ???? They use TENT Blinds and Tiny Homes so they can film and do Jumping Jacks without being seen or caught moving,,BUT that makes it more Sporting. RULE NO 1,,,Kill the Game ETHICALLY, Whats you Prority ?? Kill the game ethically or Getting LIKES and MONEY ??? Guides and Super Cubs ruined Alaska Hunting,,,,,Guides are over 50 % of Fish and Game Board,,,,,Guides make LAW for GUIDES,,,,what could go WRONG ??? U-tub hunters care about LIKES and MONEY,,,most are Fat and Lazy and Hunt out of Tiny Home's,,,,,,,,,,,Oprah Winfrey can move a Tiny Home into the woods in front of a feeder and sit on his or her Fat ass and Hunt just like MOST u-tub Hunters. I still hunt with a Rifle,,,,,,,you want more SPORT ???? I have to be careful picking my nose without being seen,,in a Tiny Home you can Love to your woman while Hunting,,,,,,,,
And yet the success rate is not any better with all the new technology
@@cjberan that is pure bs the success rate when it was recurve only was less than 4%
@@magwamagwa45110keep on bitchin
A lot of wisdom in this video, both from the perspective of "old timers" accepting and tolerating newcomers to a sport, as well as the obligation of newcomers to learn and respect the cultural norms and protocols of a new activity
Thanks Tom. I was honestly apprehensive about this one...
Old Timer's were Sporting and some of us still are,,,,we like feeling the Wind, Sun, Rain, Dew, Mist , Fog and thats WHY we didnt move TINY Home's into the woods so our little Butts didnt get wet or Cold,,,,,,,,Todays u-tub Hunters are Fat and Lazy and if the non-hunters find out on how people hunt today they are gonna ridicule you to Death,,,,,,,Oprah can sit in front of a Heater with a Lazy Boy and Wi_fi and stare out a window at a feeder and shoot something that show's up to the feeder,,,,,,,,,,they hunt LIKE OPRAH,,,ha ha ha,, you aint no Hunter,,,you are a Fat Lazy wimpy Sitter,,,your skill level is sitting on your ass and looking out a window,,,but they may be hard for some,,,,,,,,,old Folks and the Handi-capped get ALL my Respect for anyway you Hunt,,,these young U-Tub Hunters i cant stand,,,they know Nothing about Hunting
I don't think most people have an issue with others entering into the hobby. Where I think the disconnect is what is a "good experience" out elk hunting. People want to hear elk bugle, see elk, and run into the occasional hunter out in the field... That's not what A LOT of elk hunters, or hunters in general, are experiencing these days. No bugles (because elk have figured out bugling means death), elk don't expose themselves unless they have to (because they'll die otherwise), and over crowding is real. On top of all this elk have learned that private land is safer than public land and land owners charge thousands of dollars to allow people to hunt them which cuts out the average person. Unfortunately the people that will be impacted by the change the most will be non residents, rifle hunters, and the poor. Unless hunters, and game management officials bake a bigger pie so everyone gets a piece hunting will simply become a rich man's sport where it'll cost $10,000 minimum to hunt elk.
I agree with several aspects of your comment Jack. There is so much to cover on this topic, but I have a bunch of specific notes on these ideas.
I believe that the experience you describe is becoming more and more prevalent. Pretty spot on in growing parts of Colorado. I believe that this is the fault of the State Game departments. We have entrusted them in rationing tags to hunters, making game unit boundaries, etc...
Increase hunt demand might decrease opportunity but hypothetically it shouldn't substantially decrease the quality of the experience if the managers are doing their job..
In parts of the areas I outfitted there were massive increases in hunting pressure for several years and I saw ZERO changes from the State.
I do believe that elk hunting, like anything with increased demand will increase in cost.... Again, this could be mitigated to some extent by improved management and increased elk herd yield
@@CliffGray thanks for the reply. I think the biggest gain for elk hunting would be for more private land access.
I live in Wyoming and I know Montana is having similar issues. The state legislature came to the wy game and fish and said "why are we getting complaints about elk destroying ranchers crops and eating grass meant for their cattle? This is your job isn't it? They want bull tags to reduce the population. Why won't you give them more bull tags?!" I'm sure at this point game and fish took in a deep breath and said "well let me explain some things to ya"
Essentially the elk have quickly figured out private land is safer than public land. Ranchers have figured out that rich people, like Joe Rogan and cam Hanes, will pay big bucks for a bull elk on private property. But game and fish knows that they need to reduce the cow elk population to reduce elk numbers as a whole. This would also help out the public land guys because the elk would jump the fence back onto the public once they start getting shot at on private land.
So we're at a stalemate! Ranchers won't let regular guys hunt for cow elk because there's no money in it but will continue to bitch about crop destruction. On top of that the game and fish department doesn't have the authority to twist the ranchers arm into letting people onto their land to hunt.
@@jackbuendgen389weird. Here where I live in Europe hunting is state wide, meaning hunters get access and whether land is private does not matter, owners have no special rights or tags or anything. Hunting is also resident only, and we have stringent license requirements with loads of coursework and exams, which is a pita until you realise that it keeps a lot of half asses out. I get a chamois (which is our kind of mountain goat hunt), two deer and unlimited elk tags for not much money every year, plus a bunch of alpine small game. Can't complain. The only out of staters I see are a few hikers here and there.
My gripe is personal with 1 particular season in 2020. I put in the work scouting and clearing trail access points for archery elk in CO unit 44 as soon as the snow melted in the spring. All summer I rarely saw anyone else in the area so I assumed I would have it mostly to myself and a few other hunting partners I met the season before. So it's a few days before season, I go in and set base camp still nobody else in the area. Opening day I go up and there's several guys from TX running around the trails with Rzr's and I get to talking to them and low and behold they were given the spot by "Cliff Gray" So take it how you want but just remember the influence your voice may have on others hunts.
I’ve never given away spots in my content… do people analyze skylines, etc… trying to figure out where I am? Yeah… 1) they are wrong 90% of the time 2) the vast majority of the videos I make aren’t made in areas I hunt.
I do think people should be cautious as to not blow up spots. That’s a fair expectation.
The instance you’re talking about - I believe I know who you are talking about. They are guys I personally know, and I gave them some advice on a spot I used to archery hunt 20yrs ago. Pretty normal to help friends out with hunting locations when they do the same for you. Not social media related. 👍
I am newly into elk hunting. It's not MI Whitetail hunting... had to adapt to that. Did I decide to do this from an influencer's post? No way. I agree with you Cliff and my life is better for this. I have learned a ton by your material and appreciate your work. Having new respectful hunters will keep hunting alive for us all. Keep up the good work amigo.
Thank you Cliff, really appreciate your take on a hot button issue. I'll admit, It's far too easy, especially for me, to cringe when a platform as big as Joe's talks hunting (even though I love hearing hunt stories). Adapting is hard, but necessary for survival.
Thanks Erik!
If you watch Cam's video "Cam's Bull of a Lifetime," you realize these celebrity hunters have an army of guides and film crew making sure they get their bull. It's unrealistic and guys getting into the game after watching stuff like Meateater are in for a rude awakening. Too bad the new unprepared hunters are taking away tags from guys hunting these areas their whole lives. Idaho was smart to end over the counter, out of state elk tags during the covid madness. the only problem is for some of these Western states, is the huge influx of people moving in and now being resident hunters.
Was archery hunting for elk in the Ennis area in 1982. Encountered a couple hunting mountain grouse. They asked "what are you guys doing?" We rarely saw anyone during archery season. Now that exact spot is blanketed with hunters from Labor Day to Thanksgiving. It's an entirely different activity. Still enjoyable for me but in other ways. Things change.
In my state I have noticed the biggest impact has been on the general season tags. Part of the issue is DWR is making a lot of changes trying to cope with the influx that are emphasizing opportunity for more tags over opportunity for successful hunts. Dramatically increasing the number of tags (in some cases/species nearly doubling the number of tags) during parts of the hunt where there are already low success rates and the dramatically increased hunting pressure is making those hunts even harder. (the only winner in those situations are the Gear companies and the DWR). It doesn't seem like the Limited Entry Units with high success rates aren't as effected as far as crowding goes because they are not increasing the number of tags but there is a bigger line to try and hunt those areas and tag prices are much higher and the number of points to get into them is going up every year which sucks.
I am fortunate to have a 3 kids who are all putting in for tags or building points every year along with me so that we have a pretty good odds that at least one of us will draw decent tags each year so we can all go out and enjoy the hunt together and still have pretty good odds at bringing something home with us.
You bring up a great point, I have seen the same thing. Even the fact that tags have not been CUT in certain areas with the influx in traffic suggest that State game departments don't have any interest in rationing hunts to stabilize hunt quality.
Cliff, you make great points. Joe, Cam and the Rinella brothers ALL have admirable traits and they’re ALL hard workers. I wish the beef would die down because as we’ve learned from hiphop, it’s not the folks you’re beefing with you really have to worry about, it’s the fan bois! HA! But seriously, these aforementioned gentleman are providing a service by having the FULL conversation of what’s actually happening on public and private land in America. Listen to both sides. Debate yourself. Make up your own mind.
I personally don’t like when Matt Rinella calls Cam names on his platform. But I also HATE it when Rogan talks about public land hunting in the Midwest and East coast as if it were a peasants pursuit. And it is way lamer to call Matt Rinella, “Steve’s brother” as opposed to saying his name. We know who Joe and Cam are talking about, I mean… c’mon.
And finally Cliff, I think you should’ve left “elk” out of the title of this video. The truth I see is: ALL influencers who make a profit off of posting hunts and dead animals online are clearly hurting hunting for everyone including themselves.
Joe and Cam are the biggest offenders in this category and no matter how much of a bad ass Cam is (and I believe he is a bad mofo) he has sold his name to marketing teams who have mythologized him into an Icon. And frankly, I don’t believe any of these hunting celebrities are sharing the full truth. I’d bet the farm that most of these guys wound and lose insane numbers of animals every year as their relevance and legacy depends on killing big game.
And now like never before, through the very specific and intentional design of hunting marketing agencies, there are hordes of young new hunters traveling around the US thinking they’re Alpha Predators!
They illegally litter public lands with trail cam like Timothy Treadwell as they film their misadventures, with the very specific intention of building a brand that profits off of killing big game. They hike around WMA’s and take every technical advantage they can get because they need more content. It doesn’t even look like fun, and you can literally watch endless videos of hunting influencers whining about “the grind” of hunting for content. You can listen to hundreds of podcasts wherein these influencers-people making money off publicly shared wildlife-advise folks to “turn the phones off” and “enjoy the hunt again,” except they can’t and won’t because they’re market hunters trafficking in relevance and kill shot content. All the influencers say the same thing that Matt Rinella says! Except the part where Rinella says it’s actually a problem…
It’s a deadly cycle. We are messing things up. Everybody knows it. Matt Rinella can be a real dick, but he is trying to help public land. Unfortunately, Rinella is a state employed Ecologist and tho he is raising funds to help, he ain’t rich.
Joe Rogan and Cam could help the American hunter with a series of Podcasts that could raise millions, in prolly a month.
Cam and Joe don’t have to hunt public, but they could help us peasant bastards. Hell, why not have Steve’s brother on the JRE?
Merry Christmas.
The way it’s all heading is that you will only be able to draw a tag in the state you want to hunt every 5-6 years. That means that if you want to hunt every year, you need to start building points in ALL the western states and just hunt them on a rotational basis.
I think that's pretty close to the reality. Even if you see a 20-30% reduction in Colorado elk tags (which I believe is likely) someone can depend on elk hunting every year if they apply for 3-4 states. They may not but premium hunts, but still decent hunts. Not sure how long that will last. I didn't get into it in this video, but I actually think the fault of that has to do with State wildlife management.. the "supply side" of the issue. Thanks for the comment Shane!
Joe and Cam need to get more people into wolf hunting to make up for all the elk we are losing.
What does Rogan know about trailheads? He’s not a backcountry hunter.
Landlocking has fucked up elk and every other form of hunting.
I always enjoy your experience and understanding of modern controlled hunting. Experience is knowledge and you are knowledgeable. I hunt wilderness and appreciate your perspective. I’m older, so your more modern take on our future is important to me. Cam and Joe are just trying to get views. Big difference. I enjoy Joe, but I know how to listen to his “experience”.
Thanks Charles!
We need to recruit as many people we can to hunting! Thank you Cam and Joe for getting more people into it. If we dont get a shit load more people were going to loose it. Im a washington resident and losing hunting is a very real prospect. You just have to adapt. Evolve or die as a hunter. I hunt anything legel, anytime legal, any method legal.
everything is more crowded, not just hunting. Can’t hardly get into glacier park any more. Regular state campgrounds are booked up months in advance. Rafting the lower main salmon use to be secluded but can’t even get a beach anymore. Everybody’s got a raft, rv, dirt bike and a bow nowadays.
I think hunting will continue to change. Be prepared for your grandkids or your great grandkids to have a deer hunt or an antelope hunt be a “once in a lifetime” tag. Enjoy what we have now and do all you can while you can. Thank some of the founding fathers before us who had the foresight and desire to create public lands that everyone has access to.
The problem isn't the hunting,. The problem is the promotion of these activities on tv and social media to the point that it's commercialization has impacted the hunting in a negative way. It's increased the number of people hunting (I'm not willing to call them hunters because for the most part they are just shooters) and this has increased the demand for places to hunt, the amount of people hunting a fixed amount of land, the costs have increased because of supply and demand affects, etc.... One of the great joys of hunting, fishing, etc... is the solitude of being in the woods, out on the water etc... but instead you often end up dealing with confrontations in those places due to the added amount of people trying to do what you're doing. I like Joe Rogan for the most part but he isn't a hunter, he's a shooter. He couldn't kill a deer or elk if he didn't have Rinella, Hanes, outfitters etc... guiding him to the target.
Social media and OnX have literally ruined hunting... I've been waterfowl hunting avidly for 30 years and unless you have big money and leases it has gotten tough. The direction it's going is not good... in ten more years it will be like going to Walmart when you want to go hunting.
Ruined hunting by getting more people out hunting? This sounds like you're just upset that there's more public using public lands you think you're entitled to.
Waterfowl hunting is really tough now with out land access. You can scout some public areas and get lucky that you found the x, but most of the time its crap shoot these days.
@@smthcrmnal26,
Public land hunting for any species can be a crap shoot with possible crowding. It's just a bit hypocritical to complain about others doing the same thing you're doing. In the context of elk or other big game, I'd argue ATV's, SxS, and this idea that it's cool to shoot 1/2 mile plus at animals are worse than anything found online.
@scottrossingnol6034 I'm not upset about public land I'm fortunate enough to be a successful waterfowl hunter and I have private land to hunt. I've seen people fist fight over public hunting though and the amount of unethical people that social media has brought to the table is the problem. There is not an unlimited amount of fish in a small lake and there is not an unlimited amount of elk or birds in an area. Some people will never understand that and they take take take.
Your spot on. The public land has been busy for many years. But, a guy used to be able to get permission from neighbors. Especially when we were still in school. Now, someone wealthy has leased that property. The most entitled people are the wealthy. They are spoiled brats and bullies like Joe. They just call everyone else a dumb ass. Then the overlanders come through and put 24" ruts through areas we used to drive only when it was dry enough. Now you have deep pot holes. Our kids could afford to buy land near us. Crap land is now so outrageously priced. You can't even get that.
Nice Cliff. Thanks for presenting this, well thought our and eloquent in the explained nuance. I chased a Uku for two year before I got my first one, so i understand and big congrats on the Wahoo!
It is a slippery slope, I watch lots of "TH-cam hunters" content. I have been hunting my whole life. Went on my first quail hunt when I was 8 and shot my first deer when I was 12 and have hunted for the last 21 years. That being said I still find it frustrating so see so much more pressure on tags because of increased number of people. I am extremely torn. I dont want to discourage people from pursuing this activity because I love hunting and can fully understand why people fall in love with this activity. But the more people that are out there the lower the quality of my experience is while doing this activity. Take this for what it is but that's my 2 cents.
Makes a lot of sense. Appreciate the comment
I find myself torn in that as well. But with more and more hunters, hopefully we can advocate states to lease more and more ground for public land, which in-turn will make it better for everyone. I like what Newberg says, “I don’t want less people sharing the pie, I want more people sharing a bigger pie so we all get our fill.” I have aligned my thoughts with the same idea. Additionally, the more hunters that their are, the less likely of chance, lawmakers will ever be able to take away what my one true passion is in life.
Cliff Gray keeping it real as always 👍🏼 you did a good job of painting the picture of both sides of the argument
Thanks Jay!
There is something about hunting that speaks to humans in a way that money and social status never does. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic and yes we all need to be accepting of others experiencing this as well
I've hunted one thing or another for 34 years. I've seen a lot of changes but since I live in the state of insanity (CA) I guess my family and I have been a part of the "problem" we have hunted multiple states for multiple critters. And what we have seen is the weekend warriors are crazy now days. The first 3 or 4 days of the season are nuts, people everywhere. But come 5 or 6 days into the season it's crickets. All camps are pretty much empty. We don't do OTC anymore because we have built up a ton of points in 6 Western states for a variety of big game animals. Now we just pick a state. Figured what hunt we want and go. 5 or 6 points in most states gets you a great hunt!
Thanks Jake! I think that is the honest reality. There are lots of good hunts if you plan it out and spend some resources/effort. the hunting worlds is actually pretty good, particularly as an American
Day 5 or 6 it’s crickets? In Arizona, it’s nuts all the way up to the last second. I think you’re lying to yourself.
@@progradepainting3755 I've never hunted Arizona, well, yet anyway. My experience comes from Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, and even Colorado. I but like I said In my post. I don't hunt OTC anymore and I don't have near the people. But I spend upwards of 1500 a year in points for my family and I. Now we get to hunt where and when we want.
Good vid, CLIFF! If Cam and Joe didn’t ruin it, someone else would’ve ;) technology is what changing everyone’s lives. Our ability to communicate and spread info is insane. Go have your own experience. It’s about the hunt. Not the kill. The elk adapt and so should the hunters! Man up.
Before I watch this video, I’ll answer the question. Yes. Yes they have.
I used to enjoy some of the original hunting programs. Now there are just too many peeps out there putting up content. Joe and Cam dont hunt like the majority of us. I wouldn't classify what they do as hunting, but lean more towards shooting. Social media has been good for hunting in some ways and detrimental in many others. Kind of like OnX...there are NO secrets out there anymore.
yea when they describe their 4 days at "elk camp" and how everybody there managed to harvest a trophy bull, that is not very obtainable for the average Joe (pun intended)
I'm not a lifelong hunter but I can really relate to the guys that are upset. I grew up in the eighties surfing and it was my life passion. By the mid nineties most surf brands had sold to the same major corporates and u saw cheezy surf shops move to every mall, even inland. A sport that was ignored and mocked as only for loser stoners grew incredibly into the 2000s. We lost traditional etiquette in surf lineups and places like Socal and Hawaii, Australia became out of control crowded at any half decent rideable wave. I threw in the towel on my surf culture and I'm pretty bitter. I surf better than 99.8% of anybody that calls themselves a surfer. But I now only surf when I visit my wife's country of Indonesia (which is crowded with Euro and Aussie surfers). Some hobbies are very difficult and expensive to do when the hordes come. Some OG''s make $$ off of it and accept it, or just thrive in the rat race. Not me, its devastating and just being frustrated is a major understatement. Cheers Cliff!
I think the surf analogy is a great one. Similar issues. However, I believe that it is much easier to control how an influx of new hunters affect overall hunt quality. We already have tag allocations and regulations in place around this concept. In many places State game departments haven't stepped up to the plate to control crowding... perhaps they don't want to give up the extra tag revenue, etc... But the mechanism to keep the quality of the experience intact is there.
I absolutely hear what you are saying but the fact you say "it was my life passion", makes it so I have to ask... Do you think there is value in that a lot of other people picked up the hobby and it became a passion to them?
I have gone round and round with this in the context of elk hunting...
At the end of the day, those hunters that have enjoyed hunting low pressure areas can't stop people from becoming more interested. They don't own the land or the animals. They've been blessed and privileged to have those opportunities and so they shouldn't be upset when other people take interest. I get it it sucks when you pull up to a spot and other hunters are there. It's a free world though.
@jeremiahcoles2378
I wholeheartedly agree. Too many guys get unhinged because other people are hunting "their area" even though it's public land. My suggestion is hunt harder/deeper/smarter. Competition is a fact of life.
With that said, we're all on the same team (pro hunting)and should respect each other and exercise etiquette, rather than spoil precious hunting time.
One problem with new people getting into hunting is there are certain people going out into the woods and wilderness that have no buisness being there, no woodsmanship skills, oblivious to whats going on, no awareness and possibly get themselves hurt or killed and worse get others hurt or killed.
You presented good points on both sides of the discussion. I have been hunting the majority of my life(40 years of the 46). I live in Montana and have first hand witnessed a disregard of courtesy and understood customs of hunting. First come first serve..public land spots. Nonresident hunters have a week to hunt and are going to hunt the drainage even if others are there. Im glad hunting is growing, i just wish everyone would adopt a level of respect and honor for each other. Hunting has changed a great deal.
This is an interesting concept when its comes to hunting... There really aren't much for "unwritten rules" in the hunting world that the majority feel like they need to follow. I don't have an explanation of why that is... In many other activities I feel like rules of the road become even more solid as demand and potential conflict grows.
thanks for the comment!
Hunting is not growing look at any Easter state’s license number or deer kill. Western state big game is bigger because of how much the western states population has grown. The overall % of people who hunt is on the decline and that’s not good for us as it means we have less leverage when it comes to hunting laws and anything related
I think the point is missed in all this "Socially influenced" increase of hunting adventurers. The dynamic shift is not Soley falling in the lap of social media, It's the perfect storm of multiple things all happening at same time which these influencers helped bring to the public's awareness. Technology. Add in great gear, like more efficient weapons (bows/LR rifle equipment), Wireless trail cams, muzzle loaders that shot beyond 200 yards with extreme accuracy, light weight, effect clothing, comfortable all purpose packs, light weight tent options, titanium stoves, dehydrated foods and equipment, water purification systems, etc... The list of tech gadgets that have flooded the industry has made it more enjoyable and possible to stay longer, go deeper. Then add in the greed of States who saw the market profitability opportunity and ran with it. Creating a variety of extra hunts cleverly placed and named increasing their total sales profits. No one will dent yhe herd numbers are way less than a decade ago. The argument is who is to blame. Well everyone involved I guess.
The Departments of Wildlife Management are to blame. It is their job to control herd sizes. If herds are shrinking, it's their fault, full stop.
Call your state reps and senators.
Grew up in the Florida keys and love spearfishing. The reefs used to be full of Hogfish, not so anymore. The reality is Hogfish are not too smart and get wiped out quickly.
Really appreciate you doing this video and your perspective Cliff!
Cam’s articles and book from years ago was at the start of the influx, in the opinion of many.
Tried showing a friend how to read a compass and he said no need i have my phone. 😮 see to much dependency on phones.
Thanks for all of the great videos you've posted...they've definitely helped me become a better hunter. My brothers and I have been talking about this topic recently, so I'm going to get up on my soapbox. There's no doubt that there are significantly more hunters on public land than there were ten years ago. There's no doubt that a big part of that is the multitude of media out there that explains how to get into field, how to get tags, and advice on strategies, etc... I feel for long time hunters, especially Residents, who have historically hunted spots that are now a pumpkin patch. But complaining about it or trying to place blame is like trying to stop the rising tide. I remember when A River Runs Through It came and and that movie pushed a HUGE amount of people into flyfishing. Does it kinda suck? Yep. But did I bemoan the loss of solitude on certain stretches of the river? Yeah, I'll admit I did internally, but I harbored no ill will for the guys new to it. The same thing is happening with public land hunting, especially elk, now. It's actually an impressive feat that you (and many others) have managed to build an industry and way of life out of almost nothing. Kudos. The only real problem with public land hunting is that it is open to EVERYBODY. Unfortunately, that includes the good, the bad and the ugly. It includes the hunters that leave no trace behind and it includes the ones that leave a trail of trash. It includes the hunters that make sure they know the regs, and the ones that could care less about being legal. The consequence of these issues not only make it harder on the 'good guys', but its promoting quite a backlash against public land, non resident especially, hunters in general. It cringe to suggest that some videos should be put out to tell people how to be ethical and to pick up their trash, but maybe it couldn't hurt. These are things you should already know but the time you're in the field, but it appears that many don't.
Cliff- I love all your content.
To all the haters- nobody cares. Work harder.
I recently bought Backcountry Bowhunter by Cam and it’s amazing. He is a straight savage and has a history of diy wilderness backpack elk and deer hunting before he was a social media icon. That said, Joe has a level of discipline which makes him a great archer. I dont hate… but maybe a little jealous.
Thanks Paul
Great video Cliff it does a great job to address a number of points where people like to look past the everyone has to start somewhere. My biggest problems are the hook throwers and shooters that never want to move beyond that stage of getting their feet wet and not learning to respect and treasure the wildlife and land if they decide to continue the pursuit. Alaska has been in an interesting spot with a fairly steady downturn that has started to collapse a lot of fisheries for about 6 years and the start of a downturn with some rough winters starting about 4 years ago that have put hunting in a tight spot along with poor management has made some areas almost completely devoid of wildlife. A lot of this downturn for both sides are greatly contributed to by commercial interests and weather, but the new hook throwers and shooters that don’t want to learn to respect the wilderness and wildlife certainly aren’t helping in some cases.
I think there is a lot of truth to that. In a lot of my videos (the more skillset oriented ones), I quite often get comments that say "most people can't do that because they have a life" or "easy enough for you to say, you get to hunt a lot" or "your way over analyzing this".... I realize that a lot of folks bring a modern mindset to the fishing/hunting world gadget/gadget/wham/bam/picture with no intention of actually getting into the weeds of what they are doing and what they are being apart of.
I do agree with that there are a lot of people that see my success hunting and fishing at times that really don’t understand the effort I put in even in small bits of time here and there. Even in the last 3 years with a full time job I have managed to be in the field overnight 160 days with no success on big game. That sounds like a lot until you see it spread across 3 whole years where I spend the available weekends or odd extra days off along with 1 or 2 longer planned outings out every year. It is all an investment sometimes it pays back in wonderful ways when you do everything right and sometimes brings frustration that is really hard to continue through if you want to be part of the pursuit, but to me it is always worth at least getting out when I can.
Thanks Cliff for (respectfully) calling out Joe even though he's your friend! I think the State's Wildlife Department is also responsible for doing a better job of managing tag allocation. However, I don't really have hope because more tags sold = more money, and I'd bet that some of that money is just fattening some people's wallets.
I need to throw something in here: have the elk and wahoo been asked too? Like in a sense of sustainability.... What would they decide on?
From that regard : flyfish. Catch and release more sustainable.
I’m just shocked that Joe Rogan said something without regard to the negative impact it might have.
😂
Cliff, around 15:30 you talk about the un written rules of elk hunting (or just hunting in general.) You should make a video on what those are, you might know some that i dont know.
It’s not just elk. It’s deer hunting too. I grew up hunting the same area in Utah with my dad the first half of my life. Back then there was no draw, just over the counter tags. Hardly ever ran into other hunters.(I mean not a ton the were the few groups we saw every year). Always filled or tags. Now it’s soo hard to draw that area cause it was big deer country plus so many more people hunting now. I still try for it but I’ve been getting second choice. Finally I just decided to do the dedicated hunter. And drew second choice area that is heavily hunted but also 15-45 minute drive depending and you’re in the mountains if I decide not to camp (Which I’d rather camp). but just saying I’m fine with it. Does it suck it’s hard to draw where I want to go? Yes. But at least I still get to go do what I enjoy with friends and family. And the dedicated hunter program is nice because I have 3 years to get to know the unit really well. Not that I don’t know it already I grew up in these mountains. But my son and my nephews are hunting, the new generation and I still get to pass down all I’ve learned to them. To me that what it’s really about. Getting a nice buck is just a bonus.
My point is this. There will always be new hunters and new generations of hunters. Just how it is. Just gotta teach them to be respectful to others and to the wildlife. Life is change. Either adapt or don’t. May as well adapt. To me that the only option cause I’m not gonna stop doing what I love to do.
Oh and I’ll say this. Don’t be hunt snobs. Nobody likes those guys. It’s not hard to be a respectful decent human being.
I think the people thay have the biggest gripe are the ones who live in these areas. If you've hunted in your backyard your whole life, it sucks when it becomes overrun. They could put in for other draw areas, but im sure some aren't able, and most are unwilling to pack up to fight over a new area. Im in the midwest, and the whitetail woods are experiencing the same things. Id never discourage anyone wanting to start hunting, but anyone going out without understanding social orders or ethics is in for a rough time. If we can all get along and possibly work together it would be great but so much of hunting is a solo sport with no room for spectators. The hunting public has had this same affect here in the midwest and eastern US on whitetail. New guys are showing up and burning up spots and going home in 3-5 days. No biggie until the next group shows up and it doesnt stop til December. Its a double edged sword for sure but ethics sportsmanship help a lot.
Matt Rinella comes across like a chick! Strength in numbers and our society is moving towards removing hunters all together. The other side is organized and has a lot of money and people. Not everyone grew up hunting or had some family member who hunted
People are focused on the wrong problems. HABITAT LOSS AND LAND ACCESS are a bigger deal than a few (thousands) more hunters in the field. The saddest part of all of this is that the people who are most vocal complaining about other hunters don't seem to be able to lift their voices towards taking action on policy in a pro-hunting, pro-wildlife, pro-habitat way. My experience is that newer hunters seem to be more engaged with conservation activities than the people whining about how hunting used to be in their favorite spots.
Thanks for the discussion on this, Cliff, and thanks for the education you've provided us all. I may only be 5 years into my hunting career (albeit a fisherman since birth), but I know in my bones I'm a hunter til I die. I do think some of the hunting popularity nowadays will fade. I'd add that the increased interest in Western big game hunting may benefit us all if it translates to increased conservation of habitat and improved resource management. But if we as stakeholders don't influence our government and culture in the direction of supporting our elk and their habitat, then yeah, there are just more takers in the woods making all the other takers uncomfortable. That said, the increased human traffic outdoors definitely deflates the thrill of being "out there" on your own, pursuing these wild animals. This coming year I have to adapt by studying smaller pockets of habitat bordering private land because that's where the pressure is pushing them. The increased hunting pressure may be my ally in the future but this year it just sucked.
The angle of discovering hunting has saved people or helped people - that is valid and that is great. If becoming a hunter has opened up positive things for people, full speed ahead. That is one aspect for sure. The other aspect (and perhaps what really the conversation should be) is the unrealistic hunting portrayed by the TH-cam celebrity hunters and how that skews the thought process of many newer public land/OTC hunters. The majority of hunts you see on TH-cam are not going to be something the "average" OTC/public land hunter will be doing. There are exceptions of course, but a vast majority of "average" folks do not have the following two items:
1) 30 days (or way more) to hunt each year
2) $10,000s of dollars to spend on hunts/hunting each year
The average hunter may have good gear, and a good mindset, and even be in physical shape, but they don't have 1 and 2 above. #1 above is a huge gap between Joe Rogan/Cam Hanes, and the average person. If I have 7 days to hunt archery elk, and I show up at my trailhead and there are 10 trucks, I don't have 30 days or 45 days to go to plan B, C, and D. I am stuck with plan A and if I leave plan A, I lose hunting days looking for plan B. You say, well have plan B ready in advance - again - I work 40-50 hours/week for a living (nothing to do with hunting) and can't spend summer on the road making plans B and C as well as plan A. #1 and #2 above are linked, of course. It is easy for Joe Rogan to say - find another trailhead - he is wealthy and has unlimited time. He is totally disconnected from 99% of hunter's reality.
Another huge disconnect (and fake out) is that a vast majority of the great hunts you see on TH-cam are not OTC tags. They may be on public land, but they are controlled tags with way less pressure in the unit. And, also, you can be sure Joe Rogan and Cam Hanes don't show up to a hunt with zero info and have to figure it out - they have "People" who are watching the animals/intimately familiar with the unit and have them on game in the first day if not the first morning. Not necessarily a guide formally, but someone who is helping in the background. Does it sound like I am hammering Rogan and Hanes - not at all. My whole point is.......the average guy, which is a vast majority, are not in their shoes and they are not in ours - so there is a huge disconnect in reality.
TH-cam has significantly affected hunting just as it has significantly affected many other aspects of our culture and society worldwide. There is no putting the genie back in the bottle. That ship has sailed. Hunting is a massive for profit industry that has grown exponentially in the past 10-15 years - driven greatly by social media. When something becomes popular the sad reality is the cost to do it will increase and that will create more and more of a gap. That is exactly what is happening with hunting.
While I would like to think the states will manage it for the better, the states are also about revenue and when money is involved, normally the best choices are not made. State management of hunting is the only thing standing between a collapse in hunting for the average guy and something sustainable. Sadly, we are well along on the collapse for the average guy. The number of tags (resident, non-resident, OTC) needs to be reduced. If not, the collapse will continue to accelerate. Western states need to 1) go full choose your weapon for all species (you either bow hunt or rifle hunt, not both) 2) if you apply for a controlled tag you cannot buy an OTC tag if you don't draw.
I can see the comments now...."This was my first year hunting with an OTC tag on public land with 20 trucks at the trailhead and on the first morning I was 1 mile from my truck and shot a 330 bull, public land hunting is still perfect." Yes, that happens and will still happen - but to that guy..........it won't happen to you again. You will hunt for 30 years and not kill that bull again.
After 41 years of hunting in Montana, Oregon, Idaho, and Wyoming...........I can tell you hunting is forever changed. Many of my close hunting friends with similar hunting experience - who killed a bull every year for years - have not killed a bull for the past few years. That is not a fluke and not for lack of effort and not because they have not hunted hard. The reality is the landscape has changed. Some may say for the worse, some may say for the better, that is a personal opinion. Spots they hunted every year are now very crowded, and they can't just go to another trailhead as Joe Rogan says they should - they have to be back to work in 5 days..........
There’s still an increase in other areas of hunting, here in Missouri there’s so many whitetail hunters, I’ve been told the public land looks like a “pumpkin patch”. (You have to wear blaze orange)
I saw the change in hog hunting with dogs when I lived down south. Before hog hunting became cool in the early 2000s you’d have your pick of places and generous seasons (all small game season) on state and federal land as a hog hunter you fell between the cracks of deer and turkey season . Private was great farmers would pay for us to roll through during growing seasons. So then discovery/animal planet or take your pic tv channel ran with the hogzilla and hog hunting shows. The changes I saw were fairly rapid and it set off a lot of reactions by the state on how they managed hunters for an animal that shouldn’t be there. It seemed like over night everyone with a dog became a hog hunter. That put pressure on animals that became harder to hunt and the amount of places to hunt them became crowded with hunters. Not the end of the world but for the state they changed how they went about managing hunting hogs with dogs. Instead of the longer generous season we always had they started to cut the days and make rules on state land limiting the amount of dogs or times you could hunt. Still wasn’t a problem in my eyes it’s public land we all can enjoy. But the real change I saw was in private land, farmers would pay for you to help control feral hogs during planting and growing seasons. Within a few years they charged you for hunting rights. As one farm told me he made more money off the hogs then he lost on them. I’m out of that game but have been in the professional hunting I industry for 20 years. A lot of the guys who jumped into that world don’t do it anymore so in my eyes it was a flash in the pan. But I know the changes the dnr made still effect the sport.
There is def positives and negatives with Cam and Joes influence. But people have been hunting private land since the dawn of land ownership. People have been engaged in trading money or resources for access to land to hunt ,graze cattle,etc for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. The only people who complain about private land typically are the people who can’t afford it. And private land owners can help conservation efforts better than the states sometimes
Funny I'm in the Carribean to surf and spearfish myself right now and agree that you see similar trends in all outdoor sports with limited resources - backcountry skiing as well. Surfing probably experienced this first starting with the 60s. Where it's netted out is that more people are into the sport and that's a good with more infrastructure around it. There is a "paradise lost" element from crowding and aggressive behavior from locals vs non locals, as well as the newer participants not respecting etiquette, but there are still non-competitive waves/breaks and hidden gems and the popularity seems to come in waves.
I can see why if it's gotten harder for you and more expensive to have to drive further from all the east coasters and city people getting into your family spots you'd be bent out of shape, especially if you see influencers profitting from ruining your past experience. But if there are more people involved and they all have a right to participate, we need to find ways to accomodate them by conserving and regulating the resources better, increasing tag fees or reducing tags and encouraging more hunting of invasive/overpopulated species (whitetail vs elk) and fund more wardens to crackdown on poachers and side by sides on non-motorized trails. I remember hearing when I did my hunters ed that hunting is in decline in America and hunters were getting sidelined from public policy and it seems like that trend has turned.
There's a lot of good from more hunters, from more advocacy for conservation to personal benefits from Americans getting out into the wilderness, especially with some 40%+ of us now being obese and 18% suffering from depression. Also quite a few veterans use hunting to adjust back into society. It would be great if hunting returned to being a core part of the American identity again.
Im commimg up on 10 years elk hunting. 100 percent unsuccessful. From an introverts perspective most of these old school "protect our spot" people are a thorn to the community.
Do you think you would have had success if it wasn't as popular and there was less pressure?
I'm convinced those TRT bros could shoot a world record 30 yards off the trail head and never talk about it because they couldn't tell you how many miles they hiked.
The entire problem comes from the "its public land and its legal so ill do it if i want" crowd. To many influencers dont take the time to teach the ethics, just wanna show their success.
In some ways, the attention these guys have brought to the sport has been amazing. In other ways it's also been devastating. It was already trending that way long before Rogan though. Huntin fool, Eastman's, Steve Rinella, Randy Newberg and guys like that were already throwing out unit numbers and things that are detrimental to pressure. All that being said, Rogan's elitist attitude, "find a new trail head" ...really crappy viewpoint. He'd feel differently if he hunted like an average Joe.
One of the things increased involvement in hunting brings along that you didn't mention was more advocacy. If no one hunts public lands and no one appreciates them for what they provide to the population then they disappear.
Clif congrats on Wahoo. I was able to do some spearfishing when I was stationed in Hawaii. You should go to big island and continue your journey. Great perspective ty
I think the whole "hunting videos causing mass growth" is worry over a bit of fad. Some people jump into it because it looks cool, but they rarely last long. Either no success makes them give up or they kill something and realize the work involved. Or, bad weather, etc. Hunting has a way of sorting itself (eventually) out to those who belong out there... Where I live in WNY, there seems to be more "used to go" hunters than new, young, hunters.
I think people seeing how awesome it is has really made it difficult to find and hunt elk . But it’s only going to get worse. It’s been Randy Newburg , hushing. Born raised out doors they all have created this tough situation
Absolutely! Go hunt is to blame as well, They've all cut the learning curve in half for people that would have probably Never made the first step to western hunting
Kinda like you said. If your a local find a season that’s not that popular and hunt it or hunt during the week. Joe and cam have no clue about hunting public land and what it’s like I think they had to dedicate a season to hunting one of these places I think the mentality would change. I mostly feel bad for the local guy that gets pushed out of his area
Hey Cliff, curious what you think of the common line of: "more new hunters = more advocates of the sport." Meaning, preserving hunting rights, habitat access, etc.
I just started big game hunting this year, so I can't speak on the above question. However, I'm a big fisherman for Salmon/Steelhead in the PNW. That has seen a massive influx in anglers the last 5+ years (due partly to similar TH-cam personalities). However, there are less fish and less access than ever before. State wildlife agencies, "environmental" groups, big corporations (Patagonia), have pushed a narrative that hatchery fish are bad and have closed dozens of rivers based off that. I don't expect you to know much about this or have an opinion.
But, it seems like the old guys haven't ever needed to fight for their right to fish so they don't, and the new guys still don't really understand what's going on. I have not yet seen the angling masses standing together to fight and win against the concentrated (and well financed) opposition. So the influx of new anglers really has not reaped any benefits for overall fishing opportunities. The last 5 years (during the influx) we've lost more opportunities than ever.
TLDR; I am wondering if you've seen examples of these new hunters making a difference in disputes, opportunities, etc. that impact the future of the sport.
Will also add (at least for fishing) the common attitude from older guys is "I used to catch a dozen Steelhead a day. This sucks now." and disengage from the sport when it's still worth fighting for. The New guys say: "Holy crap I caught a steelhead!" when in reality the situation is pretty dire. Both groups are right and wrong in different ways. Curious if this exists in hunting too and is part of the problem.
It makes sense that a "stronger minority" would have more resources to defend what they enjoy, advocate for more opportunity, etc... If you think about the comeback of most big game species in North America, post a market hunting era, if there had been fewer sportsmen or even if a couple specific hunters hadn't been around, the results would have been way different. It's not different today, Joe or Cam could use their exposure to shift the majority's (Non-hunters) view on all sorts of policies, laws, ballot initiatives coming down the pipeline, etc... when it comes to hunting.
advocates actually have to do something besides just buying a hunting liscnece and calling themselves advocates
The comments Rogan made to Dudley about sharing spots on public land should also be highlighted.
I like Rogan, but his lack of experience with public land hunting is abundantly clear.
Cam and Joe are your biggest advocates for hunting in general. They even promote hunting. So what Cam has worked his entire to get to where he is at and his life was spent hunting public land and pushing farther and farther for success. It’s taken Cam 40 years to get to hunt the land he does. Rogan gas had sone of the best mentors in archery to help him out. He does hunt public land but also he has friends that own private but the animals are still animals no matter what.
You failed to mention a huge aspect of this topic: $$$$$$
Nothing morally wrong with a guy pursing hunting as a new interest, nothing morally wrong with introducing people to hunting….but I have a huuuge problem with making money off of recruiting more hunters. Not just new hunters, but new hunters who then turn around and try their damnedest to be influencers just like their TH-cam celebs that they adore. It’s a nasty cycle that lowers the quality of the hunt and will in time make hunting much more restrictive and less of an opportunity afforded to hunters. Hunting will soon become jerking off to hunting TH-cam videos but never actually getting to do it except for once in a blue moon or if you win the powerball.
I didn’t talk about the money aspect, along with a bunch of other parts of this discussion… because it almost needs its own hour 😂
The short of it is I think being vocal about hunting has actually cost Joe money. Obviously, Cam is making a good living off his brand/social media but I still personally don’t know his primary motivation. I can’t conclude his primary motivation is money just because it appears he is now doing well financially.
As for me… I don’t care what people think. Fact is if I stopped all this and went back to a gig at a computer I’d be making 20x the money I do off this. It’s economic idiocy.
I actually think that’s the case for most these TH-camrs that people fear. It’s not a great business, so there has to be other motivations.
@@CliffGray Randy Newburg, Corey Jacobsen, Ryan Lampers, Hushin, Born and Raised, Gohunt, Eastmans taghub, etc. You can’t charge 100 bucks for a yearly renewing subscription to a course or exclusive content and have and have 5-10K subscribers, have corporate sponsors, have podcasts and online forums, charge $5,000 for a hunting summit and have 100 guys attend, be paid money to appear at banquets, sell gear from a gear shop, have contracts with Amazon prime, and not make money. Some (like newburg, and already Steve Rinella) having the end goal of a huge big money buyout. Recruitment of new hunters is literally their way of not only making a living, but setting up for some serious wealth. YouTubing is a dinky part of these guys portfolio
I’m not saying they don’t make money.
I do however believe it’s a horrible industry to get rich within, just on the pure economics. So I’m assuming they have some additional motivations beyond $… I could be totally wrong. I can’t read people’s minds.
The bigger question is why does that matter? It just gets back to the same argument… the people who they motivate to get into hunting are gaining something from doing so… otherwise they wouldn’t do it. So the fact someone is making money on it doesn’t change that we are debating the value of a new hunter’s time spent hunting versus the value of a historic hunter’s time spent hunting.
@@CliffGray yes I agree that is the main debate. I am also primarily concerned with the new hunter that is not even considered: my kids and the next generation. If my kids have to either wait 5 years to draw a resident elk tag, or they have to hunt for 5 years before killing an elk with a resident elk tag, I’m not sure they are going to have much interest in hunting when there is so many other influences pulling them to other things that could become their “hobbies”. Over recruitment of 20-40 year old new hunters means decreased opportunity in some form. Period. You can only “adapt” so much when considering this young group of new hunters.
When Matt Rinella said on his brothers podcast, "maybe 1/4 of the people at the trailhead were there because of social media, but it doesn't really matter, I want them all gone", it's pretty clear he's out in the weeds.
Get there earlier or find another trailhead.
Everybody is at every trailhead all the time. There’s is no other trailheads to find.
Its more of people making money from this. you never mentioned that at all. Its what it all comes down tooo.
Has social media and even all the new mapping systems made it more crowded which in turn more difficult, yes. Have they ruined hunting, NO. I archery hunt for the level of difficulty and challenge. It makes me work harder, and I'm okay with that.
I think crowding issues are probably localized. I'm a duck hunter in Iowa - not a big destination duck state. I think adventurous western hunts are the big ticket right now so western hunting is crowded right now.
Long term, though, I believe promoting hunting is worthwhile. The majority of hunters are 50/60/70 years old, I believe and am concerned about a lot of hunters aging out with fewer new hunters entering the pursuit. Several decades ago and before, kids got into hunting primarily from their fathers and grandfathers but over the last few decades, there are fewer fathers in the home and more and more urbanization which indicates that kids have less opportunity to get into hunting the way they did in the past, so I think that maybe some of these huntinf influencers play an important role.
Hunting is not a large community and I think, rather than fight amongst ourselves and block other hunters from entering the sport because they saw Cam Haines kill an elk, we should find ways to work together to increase game populations and hunting access.
Those were a couple of the points I tried to make to Matt Rinella when I was on his podcast several months back but I probably didn't articualte them as well as I would have liked at the time
A couple of points.
First, living in a draw only state that doesn't have a method for preference points, the massive influx hurts my already limited chances at drawing tags.
Second, a couple of questions about out of state hunting. My taxpayer dollars go to the management of wildlife in my state. Why should any person from out of state get an elk tag when there are residents who don't? As a New Mexican, we are high crime, terrible schools, low paying jobs, and awful infrastructure. How is it fair that I live here and put up with the bad parts of NM, but then don't reap the positives?
Third, what are your thoughts on monetizing our wildlife? I understand the argument about stimulating the economy with out of state money. My concern is that landowners are given tags for free from the state and then the landowners sell them for exorbitant prices that precludes residents of that state from being able to purchase them. On this course, how do we prevent ourselves from becoming like Europe where hunting is only accessible to the super wealthy?
The fact of the matter is there are limited hunting opportunities. Not everyone gets to go. That being said, the influx of new people creates even more demand. How does this not inevitably lead to hunting opportunities increasing to the point where the 'cultural' hunters aren't completely priced out?
And, since you touched on the idea of morality, here's my last question for you. Given that there are limited opportunities and that hunting does provide a purpose, reason, motivation, and direction for a lot of people, old hunters and new, who should get the tag? The person is a resident who grew up hunting with his dad and grandad and now as an adult structures his life around hunting season or an out of stater who hears Joe rogan talk about the health benefits of elk meat but couldnt care less about hunting tradition and conservation?
As a follow up thought to explain my perspective. I grew up doing wrestling and Jiujitsu from the time I was 8 yrs old. I also grew up hunting and went on my first deer hunt at 10-11. As a kid, neither one of these activities was 'cool'. Jiujitsu was lame karate where you didn't hit anyone and hunting just meant you were a hillbilly who had a thing for your. cousin.
As an adult I'm a bjj black belt and I've been shooting a bow since 2010. Both of these activities have blown up, and for good reason. The difference is that Jiujitsu has plenty of room for everyone and the arrival of a new student doesn't mean that another student who's been training for years has to leave. In hunting, the simple fact is that for every new hunter who puts in to draw for a tag that means a more senior hunter loses their opportunity to participate at all.
And before anyone says 'go buy an OTC tag', my state does not offer OTC elk tags. And should I actually want to go through the trouble of having to travel to another state, I again ask, why should I have to? New residents drawing tags is one thing, but the idea that some mega wealthy out of stater like Joe Rogan can take an NM tag and then tell me, a resident, to 'go find another trailhead' is ridiculous.
Yea Joe, pay a third of my yearly salary for a hunt in the Gila while I get relegated to finding tag out of my own state. FOH.
Thanks for the comment.
On why there are nonresident tag quotas - Given the case law on wildlife ownership in the US, it's a good question. Regardless of who pays for what, the law has settled on that the State's own all the wildlife within their borders in trust for the residence of that State. It's my opinion that nonresident quotas exists for three reasons. 1. Reciprocity - Colorado lets nonresidents hunts, so New Mexico does also, etc... 2. The economics - by charging more for nonresident tags it's a funding mechanism for State game departments. It's what keeps resident tags so cheap. For example, Colorado's wildlife managers would be broke if they went one season without selling nonresident tags. If they attempted to offset it by charging more for residents tags, resident elk tags would be thousands of dollars. 3. A lot of these big game animals spend the majority of their life on Federal land. I've seen studies... if I recall correctly in Colorado the guess is that over 60%+ of elk live 90-100% of their life on Federal land (BLM, USFS, Wilderness). Federal tax money is funding the management of that habitat.
On the private land tag program in New Mexico - I don't have much context in New Mexico so take these as general thoughts. Just like any government program this type of program is prone to abuse... However, I am generally an advocate for some level of private land tag program because public wildlife managers do an abysmal job of creating hunting opportunities versus their private land manager counterparts. It's not even close.... It may not seem like it sometimes when out in the field hunting, but adjacent well-managed private habitat does improve hunting across regions.
On your question about who should get the tag... the way you put it, the answer seems obvious. However, this is one subject where opinions really don't matter because their is case law around it. States own the wildlife in their borders in trust for the residents of that State - this includes current hunters, nonhunters and future hunters. There is no legal preference or superior ownership right based on seniority or reason for hunting. Should it be different? I think there is a long debate that could be had - but for now the law is pretty clear on it so it doesn't matter much.
@@CliffGray I appreciate the reply and the perspective. I can't say there isn't validity to your train if thought.
That being said, in response to dysfunctional state government management of wildlife, I would say instead of doing more bad things to make a bad system work, we should fix the system. If we all agree that wildlife is a natural resource that belongs to all residents, then funding should not rely solely on one specific subset of the citizens. I can't believe I'm advocating for giving more money to the government, yet here I am (wanting to punch myself in the face).
As for federal dollars, I would contend that despite federal funding going to state populations, that does not necessarily entitle out of staters to state residents opportunities IMO. If fed funding goes to Florida and is used to protect coastal waters and game fish species and CO fed funds go funding elk and mule deer management, then it would seem like a 1 to 1 benefit, would it not? Scarcity exists in both cases. There's only so many fish and only so many deer/elk. Is it fair for someone to take a spearfishing opportunity in their state and then also take an elk/deer opportunity from a Colorado resident? One person getting two hunting opportunities while someone else gets zero doesn't sound right to me.
One that same note, how do you feel about one person taking multiples of one game species per year? For example, getting elk tags in Utah and Colorado. I would be interested to explore federal regulation of wildlife so far as it precludes 1 individual getting 2-3 elk tags in one season.
At the end of the day, under the current systems, I don't see how hunting doesn't become an activity that doesn't become accessible to the super wealthy.
I think hunting right now is really popular and as with all things it’s a cycle. Will it ever die down to the good ole days? Probably not, but give it 5 or so years and I bet you’ll see less people interested in hunting. Humans are social creatures that tend to follow trends and norms. Right now hunting is just the cool thing to do, something else will emerge or come back in popularity. Thats my guess anyways.
Interesting perspective on it. Makes sense if you look at other activities, particularly when you consider that it's going to get more difficult to plan hunts, more barriers to entry, etc.. with increased demand.
Arizonas hunts have been trashed by the newberg bs, and the hunting public. You can’t go anywhere now without endless out of state plates with huge groups of 20-30 people hunting out of multiple campers. Every hill has a hunter on it. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
Cliff, I have followed a lot of your advise and have been able to put Elk in the freezer. In fact I have done that in general tag units in Wyoming without ever setting foot in the unit before the actual hunt. Yes I did see a lot of hunters riding their side by sides up and down the dirt roads, But like you said, if you go at least one mile further than where those guys can get on their side by sides and you find the elevation where the elk are and stay dark to dark we found Elk and NO HUNTERS. Also the state does not give out any more tags than what they did ten years ago. Maybe some guys are mad because it takes longer to draw a tag. Also I have found that when I do run into another hunter my experience has been positive, Keep up the good work and Thank you.
Same for Tarpon and the flats...
I'd say it's a double edged sword. Whether people want to admit it or not, hunting was dying for years. There's been a constant downward trend in licenses sold and money for wildlife management was drying up leading to less of a say in how wildlife was managed.
The influx of hunters brings money back into the system, increases our say and brings more people to our side of the debate when it comes to wildlife management, firearms laws, and outdoor access cases. That means there's going to be a lot more competition though and if we want hunting to be around for our kids or grand kids, we're going to have to suck it up and know that it's going to be harder with more competition.
Hunting can be too much of an old boys club at times and those never withstand the test of time. Those of us who have experience need to teach and educate the newer hunters instead of shunning and denigrating them. We were all new once and so one had to teach us, now is our turn to pay it forward.
As for Joe, I like a lot of stuff he has to say but this is a case of him just being ignorant and not having the same experience with his cushy paid hunts. He's not hunting public land 10+ miles out and dealing with new hunters that may be doing dumb things. His hunting group may be the only people for 10 miles in any direction versus dodging hunters every few hundred yards. He'll just never understand the issue he's commenting on here like the average guy will.