THIS...IS REAL RAW. Unleash the True Power of Analogue Film!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ต.ค. 2020
- All of you Film Photographers UNITE! A little-know scanning process which I have dubbed "REAL RAW" will give you a permanent archive of our precious analog film. Through this process, you can toss your original film negatives (or not) and save all of the data-Red, Green & Blue color channels as well as the Infrared channels to a digital file that will be forever useable as a perfect source-media file.
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Eric, I just discovered your channel searching for info on wet scanning my archive of 4x5 negatives. I appreciate your natural ability to clearly convey information without the gimmicks many use. Thank you!
Thanks so much. I’m glad you enjoy my channel. I try to be as straightforward as possible.
This! Love your channel. Thank you so much for great content.
Glad you enjoyed it! Please sub!
This is so good, thanks for starting the podcast !
Thanks
Thanks for this Eric, been looking at SF and trying to figure out how SF / HDR related to each other. I know this is an older video but it helped a lot. Thank you!
The HDR app is part of the SF Ai suite. The base SF option doesn’t have “Real Raw” capability, you need any of the packages that has HDR. SF has changed their offerings since I bought mine and I think it’s a little cheaper now
Thank you for sharing this useful information!
A massive help with my journey to film photography!
I’m glad I could help!
I’ll save this for further review. Excellent.
Thanks
Thankyou so much, I have that suite and now I really understand how to use it. I’d only been using the Ai part of it. Love you videos for their explanations and style
Thanks so much. I’m glad you found it helpful. 😀
Thanks for this Eric , i will go throught it again and again. from Japan
Thanks. I’m glad you found it helpful!
Finally! An explanation that allows me to use SilverFast. Thank you. Really.
Great! I’m glad you found it useful. It took me forever to figure out silverfast And I’m sure I don’t know every function still today.
Great video, thanks!
unbelievably helpful. thank you.
Glad I could help!
Great video....thanks
Glad you liked it. Thanks
Thanks, this was a great tutorial.
Glad it was helpful!
Good presentation. Informative.
Thanks
Silverfast Raw was designed to help capture the extreme tonal range of professional transparencies not the low contrast tonal range of amateur colour negatives with red masking!
Yep. I have the it8 target that came with the software. I’ve long since left slide film and almost exclusively use negative film. Silverfast has lots of tools like Negafix, SRD and many others designed for scanning negative film.
Eric don't be shy! look at your audience ok? you have a lot of good info, from the old folder cameras to all the digital stuff.
Lol it’s not shy. Sometimes I look at the monitor which is off to the side.
Great vid, super helpful! Would you recommend scanning B&W negatives at 48 bit HDR RAW to give more editing flexibility once you get the scans into Photoshop?
The amount of times I've sat down at a scanner wondering if I'm doing it correctly... I am so thankful for this tutorial. The only question I'm left with is if the Silverfast / LaserSoft program somehow eventually went defunct, would it still be possible to view/"scan" the real raw file? Maybe that's a bit abstract - regardless, thank-you for the help.
Thank you so much!! This is so helpful!
Can you make a tutorial on all the steps from start to finish with using disposable Fuji cameras and using the Pacific Power Film CCD scanner? I just purchased it, after watching your video on it and it looks pretty easy-to-use esp since I am someone that is new to all this. I'm highly interested in learning more, I just don't see much on using that device or how to get the film out of the disposable cameras.
I've really never used disposable cameras but my understanding is that they come with an envelope to mail the camera in for development/scanning after you've finished taking all of the photos. If you plan on scanning your own photos I would highly recommend picking an inexpensive (I know, a relative term) film camera with a great lens and enjoy the true power and aesthetic of film. Disposable cameras have tiny, plastic lenses that don't offer any BOKEH (out of focus background) or any of the other niceties that you can enjoy from vintage lenses and modern film.
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These are cameras from my early childhood that have been laying around for many many years now. There's easily a few hundred cameras that haven't been developed and if I were to spend them off to get developed itll cost way to much. Thats why I picked up that scanner so I can just do it all myself.
Would it be possible for you to make a tutorial that I can follow along with on how the entire process is done. I figured out how to get the film out of the cameras, now I'm searching for an indepth video on how the whole process goes and whats the best work flow.
Oh wow, that's a treasure trove. So the first thing I would advise is to confirm the expiration date of the film in the camera. For every decade that the film is expired you should add one minute to the development time. Blix time won't change. Also check the instructions from the development chemicals because as you develop more rolls of film, you have to increase the development time for that reason as well. Watch this video to see how to extract the film from the canister th-cam.com/video/Uu6bijP7RyI/w-d-xo.html (or use a can opener since you have so many cans) and this video to see how to load the film onto a reel and the entire development process. The video also shows all of the equipment needed, etc. th-cam.com/video/wVW8hoVbrV4/w-d-xo.html Also, take your time to check results to include scanning etc. This is not an easy task.
If you buy a Plustek 8200i ai, the Silverfast software comes with it, so it’s quite a bit cheaper that way.
Yep that’s a great way to get the Ai suite.
There are other scanner programs that can save files with this bit depth and all four channels with linear data. Silverfast became a never buy again item for me when I discovered that its license is tied permanently to one scanner (one serial number) rather than one executable computer installation.
Wonderful explanation. But is there a possibility to processes RAW scanner files in other software?
No. Not in the sense of being able to manipulate the four channels, RGB and IR. You can however save as a RealRaw file as a TIFF or DNG and make changes in photoshop or other similar app.
Filesize notwithstanding, seems like a good method for a workflow including Negative Lab Pro if one writes the captures to DNG without a negative conversion. I'm assuming that's possible. I used Silverfast quite a bit (so many folks don't like it, but I always did) but abandoned it 2 or 3 years ago when I went to dSLR scanning, otherwise this'd be something I'd try (though I used to own three scanners for a very long time, I have now have zero!). :)
All that said, when you mentioned "you could toss the negative" I just cringed. Hahahah.
Hahah, I was just trying to make the point that when the entire negative is encapsulated you technically could toss it but that didn’t go over very well with my viewers. I’m really curious about DSLR scanning. LaserSoft Imaging (Silverfast folks) asked me if I was into it and I told them “not yet”. It seems cumbersome because you have to sit there and photograph each frame one by one vs letting the scanner do it’s thing after checking your settings and cropping. People seem to be into it tho. Can you tell me what made you “toss” your scanners (now I’m cringing) in favor of DSLR scanning?
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Hahahah. No, I understood you perfectly, but the phrase just created an involuntary reaction in me. :D
I played occasionally with DSLR scanning off and on for a few years previous to the switch but really only did serious work with a handful of negatives and especially positives - they're easy since there's no conversion, and it was the negative conversion that was the real time consuming part and what kept me with Silverfast because it does it so well (I like the filmstock presets baked into - they do very well). But then I discovered the Negative Lab Pro lightroom plugin - I won't go into detail but if you're unfamiliar definitely check it out. It's a single devs creation but he's done remarkable work and it *huge* streamlines negative conversion and does a fantastic job, as good as by hand and in a fraction of the time.
It was that discovery combined simply with DSLRs getting better and better with dynamic range and possible resolutions. The last two scanners I had which I parted with were a Pakon F135 and Epson V750-Pro - great stuff. But as we all know scanning frame by frame, making the adjustments etc can be slow and tedious, particularly if you're scanning higher resolutions, multipass, etc etc. DSLR scanning does take a bit to get setup "right" ... figure out the config in a way that I could make semi-permanent in my office was key, but once that was all in place (namely a good 1:1 macro lens, a copy stand, a good LED full-spectrum high CRI light source, and some masks for various film formats) it became far simpler and MUCH faster to "scan" entire rolls with DSLR in a 5-10 minutes (snap, reposition, snap, reposition, etc) compared to 20-60 minutes (which is about what I'd average, format depending) with the Epson. I did plenty of side-by-side comparison and because I'm using a crop sensor, the results with DSLR are not as good as say a wet-mount high-res scan with the Epson.... but I'll be damned if they're not close enough for me and done in 1/10 the amount of time. :) Plus it's equipment I already have (the DSLR camera itself) and use for other purposes, and if I ever (finally) upgrade to a full-frame digital, the results will be even better.
But it was the Negative Lab Pro part of the workflow that sold me, because it's all done within Lightroom, and I wind up there eventually no matter what. :)
That was SUPER long-winded. Hope that's alright. Cheers.
great video and great discussion. Thank you both @@therealchickentender
So grateful for this. I am currently using Silverfast “SAC” to scan over 2,000 gorgeous, Kodachrome landscape photos take by a Colorado artist back in the 1940s-1960s, which I found at an estate sale. They are coming out very dark, which I understand is because they are RAW. I have no experience with image editing, so I was hoping I could use “auto” settings. However, there doesn’t seem to be a way to do this. When I get one photo looking beautiful, and tell it to do the same thing to the other photos, it applies the same FILTER to them (like “more red”), it does not apply “automatic” to them, do you know what I mean? Is there any way to tell it (or another program) to just create the prettiest image possible out of 2,000 raw files, with no input from me? I would love to preserve that old Kodachrome look - I don’t want them to end up like they were just taken yesterday. I plan to donate them for artists to use as reference photos. Any ideas?
Hmm, my experience with mounted slides is really limited. Silverfast allows you to copy the adjustments and then paste to subsequent images but that will depend on the scanner. If it’s a flatbed (I’m guessing it’s not) then you can copy/paste adjustments. I don’t think that will work on a scanner that feeds the slides one at a time. Raw scans will allow a wide range of adjustments after the fact but the TIFF or DNG files would be pretty huge. I wish I could offer more help.
It is best to save the 64BIT RAW file as DNG not Tiff. Then the DNG file can be edited by photoshop detaily.
Great video. Do you use the batch capability PrimeFilmXA? If so, what's your process to correct alignment issues?
I use it all the time. First, I’ve found that some cameras don’t advance the film “perfectly “ meaning that the gap between frames isn’t consistent. This makes it difficult to scan a whole roll at once because once a few frames are scanned they fall out of line. Another issue that comes up is that even when you have a perfect roll with even spacing between frames, the scanner will start to scan misaligned for some reason. This may be a Silverfast issue and not necessarily an issue with the scanner. Anyway when this happens, I just cancel the scan and start over which usually corrects the issue. This issue only happens once in a while. Also, the native scanning software for the Primefilm has a contact sheet function which is handy. Forgot one thing. Once I load the film and preview frame one, I always confirm correct spacing by advancing to and previewing the second frame and making sure it’s in the correct position.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Thanks for the reply. I'm still working on figuring out SilverFast AI, your videos have helped a lot. My plan, like yours, is to scan in real raw and then post process later.
Hey thanks for the video. Is this similar to VueScan's 64-bit RGBI scans? It would be great if you would also do a video on that, and potentially comparing the two processes.
Hi Jimitav, I actually was using a similar HDRi process in Vuescan tonight with not great results. Using Vuescan with the Primefilm XA scanner is pretty good in terms of how it controls the scanner and it can create a JPG, TIF, and HDRi Archive all at once! The downside is they look like crap, lol. Vuescan feeds the film quicker than Silverfast and doesn't require a complete back and forth scroll of the entire roll before it starts scanning. That being said, I haven't gotten those wonderful colors from VS that I get from SF. My results aren't conclusive since this was the first time I've opened Vuescan in about 8 months. I'm going to do some research and report my findings as soon as I figure out a way to get the great results from VS that I enjoy from SF Real Raw scans.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Thanks, I will also give it a try.
The VueScan "Real Raw" video is up! Check it out when you get a chance.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Ah thanks, I will!
I'm not a big fan of negafix. I could never get the colors as I saw them when I took the image. I scan my negatives as positives with silverfast then convert each color channel individually. The colors are close "natural" but still require a bit of adjusting. My biggest issue is that my images come out a bit dim. So when I adjust the brightness I lose some highlight detail. I've toy'd with certain sliders at the scanning stage trying to find a result I'm happy with. The search still continues. Could be that I'm using Capture One for post processing. It's great for my DSLR files but I don't think it does to good of a job with film. I've scanned several images as positives with HDR 48bit and man did they eat up memory. I'll reserve that for more important images.
If you have the Ai Suite, you should try HDRi scanning like I outlined in the video. It gives you tons of dynamic range an protects the highlights really well.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel thanks for the reply. I'll definitely check it out.
Using the wet scan mount on the Epson 850 Pro. This method should be very nice because you don’t need the dust removal activated right ?
That’s right. The fluid eliminates those tiny pits in the emulsion as well as specs of dust. You should still diligently eliminate as much dust as possible with a rocket blower before mounting. Also the fluid won’t hide tiny hair-like fibers, fyi.
Is there anything comparable or close to this in Vuescan? I have many many uncut rolls to scan but don't have a SilverFast license for my XAs, just my PlusTek 8200i? Also, how do you store your scanned/archived files, on local HDD or do you use a cloud service?
P.S. where do you buy your 33mm neg film and find the best price?
Hi Steve, I thought I covered that in the video but I don’t remember 100%. The answer is yes the Vuescan paid version can do HDRi or RealRaw. Make all your scans as 64 bit color (assuming color film) and check the box that says “raw file” in the output menu. You can also check other boxes to scan simultaneous jpeg or other formats with the HDRi. Once you’re scanned your raw files change Vuescan from using your scanner for input to “file” as your input source. Open all of your raw files (select them all by holding down shift key while you click from first to last file). Then hit “preview” button and “scan” from the raw file to create a jpeg (or your format of choice) after you make your color adjustments. It’s like a virtual scanner using the file as a source instead of the scanner. Hope this helps!
I buy film everywhere from Walmart (online), Adorama, BHPhoto, Amazon, my local photo store and even eBay if I’m searching for classic expired film. The prices go up and down so much, I usually shop between these sources to find the best price. Fuji XTra400 has been out of stock for a while everywhere and I ran across some just the other day at Walmart’s online store of all places. My favorite film of all time, Fuji Superia Reala 100 which stopped production in 2013 can still be found on eBay from time to time. I’ve been buying it one or two packs at a time and have accumulated over 20 rolls. I never thought I’d use that film again. Hope this helps.
What scanner to use to sufficiently capture all this data though?
Check my scanning video for detailed information on flatbed vs a dedicated 35mm scanner. I recommend Epson scanners for great results. It would depend on your budget from there. th-cam.com/video/sTERW92Tg0Q/w-d-xo.html
Hello. I am trying the SIlverfast 9 demo and it doesn't have standalone HDR application. But all these functions are included in scanning software. Is that the same? or is there some limitation because of the demo?
I can confirm that Silverfast 9 has a standalone HDR app because I have it on my computer. I think you have to have the Ai suite to get the HDR app. I don’t think the fact you’re using the demo has anything to do with it.
Do you have a video for the mortals who have to do with the 49 $ version? (2022 SilverFast SE Version 9) It shows an HDR button. Since you explain HDR (Raw) is limited to the 300$ version, I wonder what is behind "HDR" in the basic version.
The $49 SF SE package is no slouch! It has the same great color as the more expensive package. SE also let’s you make very precise color, contrast and sharpness adjustments in addition to the automated features just like the Ai suite. They’re very similar packages except for the HDR specific function so part of the video applies for the SE suite because they function the same. Also, Vuescan from Hamrick Software is an incredibly powerful software package that has the same Real Raw capability for $99. I paid $79 100 years ago and I have lifetime upgrades. The same app scans and opens the HDR file instead of having a second app for HDR. It also is compatible with every scanner known to man as they’re constantly updating it.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Yes! Thank you for responding! just finding out! A lot to "process";-)
thank you, that was very interesting! I have still one question though: Is it possible to export a 48bit .dng file from Silverfast HDR?
If your talking about a photo image vs an HDR Raw file then no, Silverfast doesn’t export to DNG but it will create a 48 bit Tiff. You optionally can save as a PSD or JP2 from a 48 bit scan. But if your referring to a 48 Bit Raw file which includes the infrared channel for dust and scratch information then it can only be properly opened with the SF HDR App.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel thx for the reply! :) . I liked exporting 48bit HDR RAW DNGs from silverfast but I was always missing the infrared dust removal capability. I was hoping to create 48bit HDR RAW DNGs with the dust already removed with this software. But I guess I will have to find another solution. Maybe tiff will work for my workflow aswell...
The way it works is to scan in HDR Raw sometimes referred to as HDRi format which will include the dust and scratch data captured in the infrared channel. You then open it up in the Silverfast HDR app. These apps are in the SF Ai or archive suite, not the SE version. You can however make a single scan with just the first app (SE or Ai) having the scratch and dust already removed and save as a jpeg, tiff or dng. In this case there’s no HDR app necessary. Hope this helps.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel unfortunately you cannot save as a .dng with dust removed. At least with my plustek8100 scanner (the available settings vary from scanner to scanner) dng files are only available with the 48bit HDR RAW or 64bit HDR RAW setting. but then silverfast cannot do the digital ice. that is only possible with regular 48bit scans (and therefore no DNG). My workflow is built around those dng files thats why I am asking. But I will figure it out, I guess :D Thx again
Using SilverFast 8 and 9, I am unable to use the red transparency finder box to rotate a 120 slide or an oil mounted transparency or negative. The ability to hover over one of the half circles on the red slide outliner and grab it to rotate the slide is gone. If I select a 48 bit option, I can again rotate the previewed transparency, but when I click the 64 bit archive option the box repositions itself to a vertical and the transparency is again crooked. HDR has the same problem. The red outline box will nolonger rotate a transparency. Without this feature, the archive is not an option for me since most of my scans are strips under acetate or mounted 6X6 slides layed flat on glass. Have you run across this problem?
I’m away from home for a few days but I’ll take a look when I return.
@@FilmPhotographyChannelI could not find anything on their board so I opened a question. MarkNKentucky.
I just checked the board and for some reason my question did not post or was deleted. It looks to me that Silverfast HDRi 8&9 does not provide the option to tilt the red frame to align a slide, strip or single negative or transparency prior to scanning. To get a vertical image, the work has to be vertical prior to scanning. The HDRi feature is of no value to me this being the case.
I spent a lot of time on this issue this morning and have what I think is the intended way to address a film strip or image that is not vertical in 64bit HDRi Raw mode. Scan it with the 64 bit HDRi Raw setting in Silverfast Ai studio unstraightened, as it is on the scanner.Open the HDRi Raw image in HDR Studio. Select any of the bit options except an HDRi Raw options. Don't maximize the active frame (the red box). You can then mouse over the red semi circle on the right and when you see the fist left click and the box will rotate left or right by moving the mouse up or down. Hint: If the active frame is maximized, you can't rotate the active frame. This begs the question why scan an image in using 64bit HDRi Raw if the maximum output size that you can produce with HDR Studio is 48K? I can see a handful of situations where this would be of value but not enough to scan EVERY transparency in at 64 bit HDRi Raw. Especially 120, 6X7 or 6X9 and larger which can result in a 1 gig and larger file size on your drive. This was a great tutorial. I hope you don't mind that I have asked these questions and "contributed".
Thanks so much. I appreciate the time you spent figuring this out and you sharing your findings. It makes the channel better. Feel free to chime in anytime.
I have SilverFast SE using and a Epson V550 scanner and I have the option for 64bit HDRi RAW. But how do I open the file after I scan it? Is is possible using this version of the software or not? Thanks! :)
To open the file you need the Silverfast HDR app.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel And I guess the is extra money, right? :)) Thanks for the response! Great video! :)
So technically you don’t need the HDR software to open a Silverfast HDRi file since Lasersoft imaging says their files aren’t proprietary. The problem is that if you open up the file using with another app, you can’t access the infrared channel.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel oh, I see. But using PS or something like Lightroom I imagine would take a lot of time to convert it in a usable image...
Yep it would defeat the purpose of those big scans. I’m working on a similar Vuescan video. It has the same functionality in a single app. The Vuescan app is a LOT cheaper than Silverfast.
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Hey, great video, big help. I notice, after export my tiff/jpeg the output file ist darker and colder (in the darker areas) then the preview in SF HDR 9. what can b the reason for this behaviour ? do any of you have this problem too? thanks!!
Hmm, I would be guessing that it may be a SF9 issue. I’ve had the new version 9 for a month or so and it has lots of bugs right now. I just scanned a roll this weekend that had really inaccurate colors and after scanning on version 8, the scans looked great. I’ve never gotten a color shift or darker than expected results from SF8 so it’s possibly a bug that needs fixing. That being said I think the new SF9 is awesome but needs a little work.
Thank you. Not sure, im using vuescan for my .dng and i post process them. Can this b the problem? Thank yoy
Oh, yeah that’s probably a factor. Vuescan HDR files aren’t 100% compatible with Silverfast. The dust and scratch removal doesn’t work and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a color shift. Vuescan has HDRi capability which can all be done on a single app.
A newbie here. Have several thousand original photos, positive slides, and both color and black and white negatives from 35mm to 11x14. From the 1930's through the 80's, I have an Epson 850 pro. Just completed a new computer to be able to use at the best quality in scanning. Want to preserve for future generations, if they care? The Epson came with Silverfast SE Plus and just looking has 48 bit HDR. I am just starting to play with things, done several test scans. Please correct me if my thinking is not correct. Initial scan tiff, highest resolution needed using no software to preserve the original? Looking at your video should be using silverfast with HDR Raw? Make two scans one of the original send to storage, make a second scan using Silverfast and making changes? Do I still need another software such as Photoshop, Zoner, etc.? Do I need to upgrade my license up to the 64 bit HDR Silverfast and do not need another software? You seem to want the best as I do. I don't want to short change myself at this stage to save a couple dollars. Don't want to spend a whole lot more, but a bit more might be beneficial. I do have your suggested items for wet scanning coming tomorrow from Amazon. Getting close to start some real scanning, and every time I say that something comes along that I need to change. Thank you so very much for your wonderful videos and patience with me!!!
Just noticed when I go to Silverfast, if I select glass highest is 48 bit HDR, if I select filmholder will get 64 bit HDR? Thanks
Hi you’re very welcome. The HDRi process is used to create a permanent digital record of your film negative which includes not only color information as in RGB but also infrared dust an scratch data which can be corrected using the HDR app which comes with the Silverfast Ai suite. The archive files are big. Usually around 100mb for a 35mm film frame scanned at around 3200dpi. This of course is affected by how detailed the photo is. You can get a very detailed Tiff or DNG without the expense of the Ai upgrade and would have files that are roughly 1/3 the size. The thought process behind the Real Raw HDRi scans is that you’ll have a permanent record that can be virtually scanned by a better (future) technology if needed where a physical film negative is subject to deterioration, fading incurable scratches or other damage. I like the Real Raw process since SSDs or even HDD space is so inexpensive lately.
I just went on the Silverfast website and it looks like the HDR suite also allows archival (Real Raw) scans. That wasn’t the case when I originally bought my Ai suite. I would check their site for the checklist that shows the differences between SE Plus, HDR and Ai to see which would suit your needs. www.silverfast.com/comparison/en.html
@@FilmPhotographyChannel Will go to their site, thanks. So, would make one scan tiff raw and HDR 64 bit, save it and then back into Silverfast or another type of editing software? Being new I am confused. Space I don't think will be an issue for large file sizes. Have 1tb ssd, 8 tb internal computer storade WD hard disk, and 10 tb WD external hard disk, the 8tb internal, and 10 tb external will be exclusively for scans, been told that should be plenty?
If you want the real potential released, make a darkroom print
You’re so right about that. I haven’t done that since the 70’s.
@@FilmPhotographyChannel It’s never too late, I am setting up my first darkroom and I am 48...
Clueless people lecturing others, classic youtube.