Who would win? Alien from another universe stronger than a god of destruction, who fought to the end to save his universe and trained his entire life. Or Two androids created by a wannabe kid Gru from Despicable Me
Dude it's an anime One of the Gods is a robot did you forget One of the strongest people in the TOP was Aniraza who is a robot Dr Gero made androids stronger than Frieza who could casually blow up planets with little resources and in hiding
Fun fact: Frieza is known as one of the strongest person in the universe and he owns like half the universe and he get's defeated by ssj Goku, than later when Vegeta get's ssj he get's ONE HIT by a android made by some random old dude, HOW DOES THAT WORK.
Dbz is mostly inspired by superman's comics like superman beat powerful beings like darkseid but somehow suffers against some scientists like lex luthour i guess the same logic work here
I really think Frieza was just made too strong. Him being a thousand times stronger than his strongest underling threw off everything that was to follow.
@Pyrple I think to a certain extent it's fine since frieza was supposed to be the emperor of the universe, but he should've been the pinnacle of strength for a while
The series' marketing is always "This guy is the strongest we've ever seen" to make people watch it, as a result, Earth scientists can now make machines that can kill most Gods of Destruction
That's the one thing I dislike. I wish it was more like Mashle (if you've ever watched it) in how magic counters magic not because it's stronger but because it has some sort of advantage. It also involves a lot of thinking and strategy to be able to win a duel, unlike in Dragon Ball (most of the time).
My main issue with dragon ball is how they make a character sound powerful and by the next arc, the next big bad guy is just stronger than the previous one not due to training or anything, literally just built like that from the gecko and the cycle repeats itself over and over again. Like who is stronger, an alien who trained his whole life to beat anyone and it strong enough to beat a god of destruction or gohan cause he got a lil bit angy that day
Super's Power Scaling gets even harder to follow when there are several continuities with quite different scaling between them, the biggest example probably being the anime having Jiren pretty heavily implied to be stronger than Beerus, while the manga still has Beerus above current MUI Goku (which I believe was a poor writing choice but that's a whole other discussion lol)
It’s not heavily implied at all he’s stronger than beerus that’s if you can’t read and hear what you want, “a mortal stronger than HIS god of destruction. And yes whis says Belmod is stronger than beerus he means in pure brute strength as he beat him in a arm wrestling match but actual combat is not even close beerus solod all the other gods in the manga
@@Nocing I mean, I referred to the anime having Jiren that strong lol. The anime doesn't have the GoD battle royale and has additional stuff like guides that say Jiren is just blatantly above the Gods of Destruction and the like.
@@creeperman1295 regardless of any of that you would still be wrong beerus is literally the strongest entity non Zeno, grand priest, or angel and he’s literally a moving goal post who is moved up in power anytime someone comes close so jiren is not stronger than beerus, jiren couldn’t beat fppsj broly let alone beerus. And yes gogeta would wash jiren.
I think in Trunks' timeline the androids are reasonably weak, they were struggling to defeat one super saiyan on their own and had to tag team and after Trunks came back from the past he was capable of wiping them out, but still, super saiyan future Gohan is definitely as strong as Frieza at least
Its so funny that by having a good teacher someone could become a city leveling monster in 10 years of normal training and that would be considered weak in dragon ball
I've always thought that the fighting levels used in Dragonball were more a form of elitism that Frizer himself imposed on the multiple planets he conquered. Think about it, creating a readable power scale where you yourself are the most powerful thing in the universe sounds like something a tyrant would do to keep his subjects under control and with this give the very races he controls ways to prevent the birth of super soldiers outside the rules he set up, see what happened with Broly.
This does make a lot of sense, but another idea I have is that the system itself is possibly a natural thing that all fighters use to determine if they are capable of defeating certain fighters. If frieza knew this, then his power level being so high means that nobody wanted to challenge him, therefore becoming emperor of the universe and him having unquestionable authority over others, such as tyrants and kings throughout our history have until the magna carta was established.
Dragon ball power creep has always been absurd since the beginning of Z which slowly cranked it up over the course of the series. But super just brutally yanks that dial so hard into the maximum that the dial breaks off and the already dangerously overheated oven explodes.
@@JFAMERICA we love power scaling I mean, I do like power scaling, but sometimes whenever you have inconsistent authors, it’s very painful to power scale people that’s why cartoon tortoise is able to destroy planets
Yeah no, none of this makes sense. Ressurrection F shows Kame fighting off Frieza soldiers, which should be infinity times stronger than any earthling. That was the moment I knew they just don't give a shit about keeping track of any power levels anymore.
Nah bro jiren is for sure stronger than the gamas. While direct evidence in terms of battles or explicit statements comparing Jiren directly to the Gamma is lacking, the context and feats from the series suggest that Jiren remains stronger. Jiren’s portrayal as a fighter capable of going toe-to-toe with Ultra Instinct Goku and surpassing the power of a God of Destruction gives him an edge over the Gamma androids, whose power is impressive but not depicted on the same universal threat level.
Humans being able to make robots stronger than the strongest being in the universe and then again make robots stronger than the strongest beings in all universes just proves that humans are the master race, not saiyans 💪🏿💪🏿😤
While power scaling is fun to theorise over, it's ultimately meaningless, because characters are exactly as strong as they need to be at any moment for the story to happen. Anyone who treats it as important is genuinely missing the entire point of what it means to consume and analyse fiction.
I dunno man, when Batman beats Darkseid with his pinkie finger because the writer is a batman fanboy i dont see how that can be anything but awful writing.
@The90sDoggoGaming there are times when we are expected to have reading comprehension to know if what we're reading is comedic or a gag. There are other times whenever we can tell that what's being shown is the real deal
@@JFAMERICA Oh yeah of course that in the example i gave i was not counting with comedy since that plenty of times is meant to be absurd, but if you have read comics you know that Batman has done absurd feats that were not intended to be funny.
Honestly, they should have specified that the Gammas were as strong as Goku and Vegeta in base form, or at most Super Saiyan. The idea the Hedo made two androids at SSB level without knowing anything about Gods or God ki is absolutely absurd. And then to make a giant Cell copy that's as strong as a God of Destruction when it's incomplete?! Yeah, nah, they threw out the powerscaling book with this movie. Beast Gohan really shouldn't be higher than Blue Evolved, otherwise there's no reason why Gohan doesn't just oneshot everything at this point...
I'm glad you feel that way. I don't want my videos to be an annoying guy screaming 😭, so I go for a chill, normal me that hopefully people can consider a friend. I know it sounds funny, but if you like it, I'll keep doing it
From the beginning of the series Roshi can destroy the moon easley with less than 200 units of power Then Vegeta 100 times stronger than Roshi can destroy the earth with his strongest attack And then Freazzer with like 2 million units takes 5 minutes to destroy Namek Yeah, the numbers go wild
Frieza is Dwarf Star level. The 5 minute thing is not indicative of Frieza's actual destructive ability (he literally blew up Planet Vegeta in his first form anyway).
saying one of the gammas is stronger than jiren just because the arc is further in the story is like me saying krillin in the buu saga is stronger than Cell
@@JFAMERICA jiren was fighting blue goku golden freeza and android 17 at the same time, so no a statement from piccolo (a guy who cant even sense how strong goku blue is because he cant sense god ki) saying gamma is equivalent to ssj blue goku or vegeta actually confirms they are weaker than jiren, and cell is destroying buu saga krillin low diff
It was honestly pretty fine until late Frieza Saga where the slope of sensibility started to plateau, with damn near everyone involved in the arc spiking by hundreds upon thousands of times their own strength in literal days. Going from Vegeta tier planet busters, needing a considerable amount of power to _maybe_ be able to destabilize the core enough, to 1st Form Frieza, who could instantaneously detonate a planet if he blinked at it hard enough, is a drastic spike, but then there's the copious amounts of transformations, potential unlocks, zenkais, and probably some other plot conveni- I mean method of getting stronger that I'm forgetting. And then the plateau just goes head on into a tungsten wall because of some old man being able to MacGyver like 5 robots and cyborgs together out of a bunch of scrap in a cave in ye old Bumblefuck, Nowhere and they're somehow capable of being leagus above the likes of Frieza and Cold. Now we live in a world where Buuhan level threats would spontaneously dissolve into the aether if Krillin put too much force into a fist bump.
I agree. Now, every opponent has to challenge the strength of the God's. I feel like because goku and vegeta had no rival for a while, there was this thing of wishing to be the strongest in the universe with granolah and gas. This is just my opinion, but it just felt lazy a bit at least to me.
Imo, freeza was ok, aside from the numbers that were being given and zenkais. Roshi and picollo both could destroy the moon, so its understandable that the next big bad can be stronger than that. Gero also had at least an explaination to how he did it, and tbh, it was good enough, since it made sense, the androids were only as strong as everyone from before they were activated, with the pro of having infinite stamina/energy, but as soon as some of the fighters train, they lose. And cell is a mix of everyone in the future + anyone he absorbs, with 17 and 18 being key pieced for him to evolve, the characters could have beaten him on his 1st and 2nd form, but not after that. The problem with super power scaling is that they dont explain why, and when they do, it makes no sense. Freeza closing a gap of years of training in 4 months is ridiculius, then doing that again using a time chamber is stupid. Jiren is jiren, horribly design and boring. Topo being "stronger than a god of destruction", and literally using the Power of one, and losing, is stupid, because beerus and the other gods are supposed to be the plot device that keeps goku and vegeta into training, they are never supposed to bevome stronger than them. Granola wishing for himself to be the strongest is fine, the problem is that he wasnt a fighter, he should have had the power to match goku and vegeta, but not the experience to beat them. Gas is the same.
@@neonoah3353 The lead up the Frieza is where about it gets messy for me. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin are understandable enough because of zenkais and potential unlocks (I don't like them, but at least they're reasons). My ultimate breaking point, and where I think power scaling truly went flying off the handle, is with Piccolo, and not because of his merging with Nail. His merging with Nail was roughly a 10x increase of his current, pretty big boost that put him on equal footing with 2nd Form Frieza. It's a perfectly servicable reason, we saw it work it's magic again in the Cell and Universe Survival Sagas, but Piccolo's base power prior to it is an _enormous_ discrepancy when you actually acknowledge the number, 2,060,000 post merge. Divide it by 10. _Piccolo was at 260,000 before the merge._ How in fck's name did Piccolo get almost 75x stronger than he was in the Saiyan Saga in less than a week? What kind of protein shakes was Kaio giving him? I get Big Green is Toriyama's favorite character, but Jesus Christ that's a fanfic oc level of absolute bullshit that even his own self insert character is incapable of pulling. Putting strength into numbers was the single biggest mistake that man ever made with Z, simply getting a good deal stronger is fine, but when you introduce the ability to quantify that increase, sense just dissolves if it's too drastic, and Piccolo going from 3,500 to 260,000 (again, a near 75x increase) in 5 days when Goku only went from like 300 or so to 8,000 (still a big 20-something times jump but saiyans are bullshit so it's at least believable) over the course of an entire year is just, simply put, bogus.
I think Super power levels rn don't really vary much, except when new forms are achieved, and even then, they mostly don't change that drastically, like Vegeta's Blue Evolution, which has a more significant change aesthetically rather than in power so we barely saw it in the series. The forms that bring god ki to non god ki users like Beast and Orange really are huge tho However, the forms do get powerups the next arc they are used, but this only happens once (like how Blue is introduced against Golden Freezer, but in the Black arc it gets a powerup related to Goku and Vegeta's mastery over it, and as stated in the manga is mostly about energy usage rather than power) so in later arcs their power is pretty much the same to us, needing another form to actually raise the bar even if it's just a little. It looks that we won't really get much new forms in the future with Ultra Ego & Instinct + Beast & Orange and arcs will continue using these which would be the best tbh
The super hero movie was being produced before the moro arc was even a thing. The statement of Gamma 1 and 2 being as strong as Goku and Vegeta are referring to Broly Movie SSJB Goku and Vegeta who are both still weaker than Jiren. Not only that but Piccolo cannot even SENSE god ki, therefore him making these statements, is narratively questionable. Even a Gohan who hasn't done any proper training since the ToP arc was able to toe to toe with Gamma 2. Training is also a baseless argument as Future Gohan trained for over a decade and was still fodder to a weaker set of androids. Even in the confines of the SUPER HERO MOVIE. Jiren is still more powerful, as Vegeta states Jiren wasn't much more powerful than both Goku and Vegeta's full power but he was more efficient with ki usage. Even though this is a complete retcon and contradiction to the actual manga and anime where Jiren is just a complete powerhouse lol.
Going the anime route, this is correct 100%. However, the video is based on the manga for the most part, but it's interesting to hear your thoughts about this
I would agree, but for some reason, every villain is exponentially stronger, so the characters are just strong to the point where it doesn't make sense
@JFAMERICA you're not the first person to say that but it still doesn't make any sense apparently he's been on the planet that and his father will put on as long as Goku has been on Earth, and Goku has years! years of combat experiences, Broly doesn't, and like....he just somehow someway magically is able to fight two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans? And a hold up with a said fusion of them? It's just....bull shit.
@GMan-bn3tb I get the frustration, but being this mutant comes with certain advantages. Broly can adapt quickly, so as vegeta didn't go all out at first, Broly had a chance to adapt to the increasing power, leading to fusion being the only option. Broly has lots of potential, making him like Gohan and Frieza that power up randomly. This also ties to the adaptability that Broly has. Extreme power is another thing that he has, so he doesn't only adapt to the current strength. He makes them power up more. This, in turn, leads to a rinse and repeat of powering up, adapting, and power up again. One of the last things is him being a Saiyan, which is a warrior race. So Broly, just like Goku and Vegeta has no limits (agl dokkan bums). I hope this helps a bit, but I do understand the confusion you have.
@GMan-bn3tb Broly is the same age as Goku and Vegeta, and he was doing some very mild training with Paragus on Vampa. In case you forgot, Base Vegeta was absolutely destroying Broly until Broly began to adapt and gain his transformations such as Ikari and Super Saiyan. Adaptability is the entire reason Broly is as strong as he is, and his father being so weak is the reason his adaptability never came into play. You're free to be as much of a disbeliever as you want, but the logic holds up. Your internal logic just sucks.
@inferno3054 it's not a matter of Logics and facts, one, Vegeta is older than both Goku and Broly, Broly is the same age as Goku. What I'm saying is it makes no sense it just feels like a cheap cop out to just make him strong. It feels like a dumb excuse where at least with the original Broly it makes out because he was just going around destroying planets. It made more sense if it just gave him a massive boost of power instead of this dumbass adaptability, it makes everything Vegeta and Goku went through seem like a joke if Broly can just "adapt" and gain strength that he honestly doesn't deserve. Hell, even Jiren had to work for his strength, he didn't just wake up that strong.
Oh well that’s literally what they were doing in tournament of power, where you can’t kill opponent and you have to push him out of the area, that’s why in that arc the most important thing was tactics, battle iq, and teamwork (excluding power since it’s obviously the most important thing)
The concentration of ki to raise power levels is critical. Lots of people misunderstand the fight with raditz and think that certain attacks have specific multipliers. It can really mess up consistent scaling.
As an addition, UI was not a transformation created by Toryama, the creators of super just wanted to end the arc with a transformation because the beginning of the anime was bad (he created the design tho). Every main character is supposed to be around super Saiyan blue level
@@JFAMERICA the Broly movie is closer to Toryama's version. It ignores the existence of UI, it ignores that they fused against Zamasu (he wasn't supposed to be a fusion level treat, if you look at the fights in the manga it is way more balance when he fights against Goku alone). The movie also puts Jiren around blue level and sets the ideia that at that level of power is more about abilities then new forms and etc
@@michaelshields6326I still don’t understand how sign works to archive ultra instinct uou have to move and think autonomously correct ? So how are you using the technique if you’re not in “full” UI that doesn’t make sense shouldn’t it be you’re either in UI or you’re not based off the question I asked previously
Honestly, you may be right, but assuming that ultra instinct gets stronger throughout the arcs, that means that piccolo is equal to an ultra instinct goku that is way stronger than the TOP mui that beat/close to beating Jiren depending on how you view it. The tricky thing is if you think that the gammas are equal to or stronger than TOP mui, which is on a level equal to Jiren. Depending on what you think, it heavily changes your perspective on the fight.
This video makes me nostalgic for those super old videos we had on TH-cam back in the day where fans would predicut what future Super Saiyan transformations would look like while Linkin Park or something else blasts in the background. Good old days man....
Gamma's being strong enough to destroy universes is just stupid. I feel like human capabilites of making robots (in terms of power) should cap at around A18
This is a good video don’t get me wrong however I have a different take on this: I think that the power scaling is justified because of the fact that these fighters are among some of the greatest fighters on their respective planet and even universe considering some of the z fighters got to be selected to fight on universe 7’s team. And not to mention most of them are aliens so it makes sense they can power up so much. (Piccolo, all the saiyans, even tien.) outliers are of course krillin and Yamaha but these guys are just some amazing fighters compared to the average joe.
I definitely agree. However, it seems that these guys can just grow infinitely until the day they die. With the rate that they grow its very rapid that it makes their power seem obnoxious. This is just my opinion, and I respect your opinion
They need a new tier system, the power level one dosen't work. I can't take the fights seriously if it dosen't show or explain WHY a fighter is stronger than the other, what's so special about Black Frieza or The Gammas for example?
@caralho5237 I personally think that the enjoyment from the series is great. I've been enjoying Daima, so I personally don't think it's garbage even though the power scaling doesn't make sense.
@caralho5237 I figured that you were talking about super, but I just wanted to tell you that just because super may be garbage that other parts of the franchise like Daima are very enjoyable
Oh you only found out now? I thought everyone knew that dragon balls power scaling is extremely outdated compared to the recent anime, that just confirms that Akira tori Yama couldn’t evolve as an mangaka, and stayed at the same level for decades
Has it been confirmed by an official source that the Dragonball Super Hero movie is canon to the manga? Because if it isn't we can ignore the Moro and Granola arcs, and all the powerscaling that comes with them.
To help out your android argument look at even the original android arc. They were on par with super saiyans despite the fact Dr gero had never seen a super before. It could be argued he and 19 were made to nullify ki through absorption which is a great way for gero to control his own creations. Hedo had footage of every fight they've had minus time travel shenanigans and the tournament of power. These scientists were capable of pumping out warriors multitudes of power higher than their adversaries. And in a way this shows ki flow and control are the ultimate base of power scaling, and that base power level doesn't matter. Which is why the weight has been placed on mastering forms since the cell saga.
In addition to this look at how piccolo fought frieza after fusing with nail. You'd assume the base power boost is what did it, but piccolo powered up and changed his aura multiple times to confront frieza with a dynamic fighting style. Piccolo has always been on par specifically because of his mastery of ki rather than because of his fusions.
ssbk times 50 goku was effortlessly pushed back by jiren. Goku in ui is still struggling against jiren. Mui is slightly above jiren. Keep in mind an enraged ultimate gohan is stronger than the gammas. And ultimate gohan is ssb level. Yeah nice try buddy.
Dragon Ball’s power scaling has been busted since the late Freeza saga. I don’t think there was ever going to be a way to really fix it after certain writing decisions were made around that time, and it’s been a pretty fuzzy thing ever since.
Yeah no shot the gammas who jumped base piccolo at the same time and failed to kill him are even close to Goku or Vegeta in their best forms at that time.
It may not make sense, but the purpose of Super Hero is to make Piccolo and Gohan equal to or surpass Goku and Vegeta. Therefore, the gammas should be very strong. However, the debate comes in whether you think they can beat Jiren or not.
@abdouaboud7490 That's your opinion, and I get that. But for Gohan and Piccolo to be Goku and Vegeta level, the gammas have to be relatively close to Jiren. That's just my thought though and may be wrong.
Jiren says he always training, i would assume jiren could still body them. Im sure the writers would buff up jiren to their level or even stronger the next time they met. I mean thats been jirens whole thing, getting stronger
Jiren bodies both of them with training or not. These 2 "strongest" android where fighting equally to piccolo with his potential unlocked. Which doesn't even scale that high. It's most likely that they made a tough estimate of Goku's power lvl. Because, god ki CANNOT be sensed by mortals
@elpapuxDDReal it's possible that they scaled goku and vegeta up to their blue transformation. I think that's scalable only because they've had numerous battles in that state. They could scale their opponents powers, but still it isn't a good way to measure their power as they are constantly evolving in strength. I don't think they have measured mui or vegetas ultra ego. Nothing the androids have showed, shows me that can come even close to those levels so idk. We gotta just take the writers words for it because some stuff is hard to imagine until we see mfs fight
Here's some power scaling, By broly movie Ssb is as strong as Omen 3 Goku in TOP and that's only blue, he then gets much stronger to the point where Ultimate Gohan can't keep up with his blue forms movements in moro Arc so at the very least he'd be several times stronger and this isn't counting the fact Gammas been stated to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta (Blue) and this is post Granola arc meaning these versions are way stronger than Jiren as Goku stated Moro stronger than anyone he's faced and his power is relative to Granola arc Blue 😂
First of all, the Broly movie's scaling applies to the anime, not the manga. The manga version of Broly has slightly different events and scaling. It's pretty consistent for Toyotarou to have his own interpretation of events and scaling when it comes doe the adaptation of movies into the manga. Secondly, there's no evidence that Goku has reached his UIO3 level by the time of the Broly movie. Likewise, in the manga, there's no evidence that Goku has reached that level of power in the Broly saga. While it is contentious as to whether or not post training SSJB Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Jiren and TOP UI Goku in the GPP saga, I won't dispute it, as there's no evidence against it. However, in the Superhero arc, Piccolo only stated that they are about AS STRONG as Goku and Vegeta. It's never stated that they are superior to them. But yeah, they definitely clap Jiren by that point.
well, Goku says Moro is the strongest opponent. And Granolah is stronger than Moro because of the wish. its fair to say that they keep getting stronger.
@@Kacper-jw3bvyeah but the thing is that it only works for the main villain, like cell max is stronger than granolah who’s stronger than Moro who’s stronger than jiren
@@morkegamer im not sure about it Obviously villains do always get that plot relevancy power boost as well as their henchmen but main cast also trains between arcs unless its directly stated they dont like with krilin and gohan but they can always just do a couple pushaps and now they are strong enough for the story and they somehow ,,keep up" with their new found enemies to fight obviously except the main ones
the problem with power scaling in z to me comes from zenkai boosts and frieza but I would argue the problem begins in dragon ball when king piccolo gets introduced and them not letting tien be able to deal with a single one of king piccolo's kid creature things when goku and tien had a very close match a few episodes prior and they power up goku to deal with it and introduce yanjirobie someone who supposedly hasn't had any training and lived like a caveman by himself can beat some of those underlings while tien someone who trained as martial artist most of his life can't because reasons
Yeah i agree ... Power levels are bs ... Roshi in the saiyan saga could have defeated both vegeta and nappa with ease ... Bcuz if someone can stand and dodge hits from jiren .. He could have even killed frieza in namek saga ... .. And somehow in dragon ball krillen who is a normal human . He can reach gods levels by just being a side kick in every arc and train basic training ... If he did that .. Why other charecters couldn't ... King vegeta power level is 18k .. After all of the battles he went through and being a saiyan on top of that.. But a normal human can reach thousands time higher than that cuz the plot needs him to be ... Dragon ball could have been a millon time better if they made the power increasing lower than that ...
Nearly every time somebody tries to perceive their opponents abilities as a simple quantity they lose. You were told power scaling was a stupid concept in the canon.
6:22 when talkin about saibamen you should take look at the experience of fighter. Pure strenght can mean something, but dragon ball showed us already in namek saga that "scouters sucks" and that enemies too much rely on them, so saibamen may be as strong as raditz, but they are fucking plants that just got born, while raditz have some fighting experience. Akira tried to decrease the importance of power level but its too sick tbh
Yes, fighting experience does matter, but whenever the power level is too high, the fighter can't do much. However I do agree and I should've probably said something about that
Base Goku *Strength*: In *Battle of Gods*, Goku shook the DBS macrocosm, which includes heaven, which is stated to transcend dimensionality, along with the infinite time chambers. Since time chambers are a form of technology and there is an infinite universe, as repeatedly stated in the guidebooks, there are guaranteed to be an infinite number of them. (Time chambers are described as dimensions numerous times, so he shook infinite different dimensions.) Btw for those people who claim that it was never stated and the statement was trancend dimensions you’re wrong and even if you were right that’s still low outerversal. Under Low Outerversal we see “As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being “above dimensions” and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context.“ He achieved a similar feat too BOG earlier against Janemba in SSJ3 when he shook heaven again, showing that even back then he was outerversal. Given that he shook the macrocosm in SSG and absorbed SSG in base form, this places his base form at outerversal. *Speed*: He moved in the Null realm and in Heaven, both of which are described as absent of time, showing he has infinite speed. is 5th Dimensional it’s safe to say he has Immeasurable Speed. The concept of 5th-dimensional beings often involves properties beyond our usual understanding of space and time. If these beings exist in a 5th dimension, they could potentially move through time and space in ways that are beyond our 3-dimensional perspective. This could make their movement seem instantaneous or immeasurable from our 3-dimensional viewpoint. Essentially, their "speed" is difficult to quantify because their dimension includes possibilities that our current understanding of time and space cannot fully grasp. - Immeasurable Speed *Durability*: He survived full-power hits from individuals far stronger than his base form, placing him at outerversal. *BIQ & Combat Skill*: As a martial artist since birth, he learned under multiple gods and angels, including Kami, Beerus, Whis, and King Kai, as well as from martial arts masters such as Master Roshi. *Experience & Combat Experience*: He is in his mid-40s and has been fighting essentially his entire life. *Abilities*: He has too many abilities to count, probably around 50+. Some of his abilities include: - Kamehameha - Instant Transmission - Spirit Bomb - Kaio-ken - Telepathy - Flight - Energy Blasts - Energy Manipulation - Enhanced Strength - Enhanced Speed - Enhanced Durability - Regeneration - Martial Arts Mastery - Enhanced Senses - Ki Sensing - Power Suppression Lowball -Outerversal, Immeasurable Speed, Outerversal Durability. Realistic - Outerversal , Immeasurable Speed, Outerversal Durability. Highball - High Outerversal, Immeasurable Speed, High Outerversal Durability. (This is due to a Toriyama Statement saying the multipliers are beyond mathematical measure past ssj3, which dbs base goku is stronger than, that is a high outerversal feat)
@JFAMERICA lol I got this stuff on a word document, but yeah I'm assuming he's intended to be multiversal by Toriyama but Toriyama knows nothing about power scaling so he kept accidentally adding outer plus feats to the mix. It's even worse when he stated "none of the statements in dragon ball were hyperboles" sucks he's gone but hopefully if it continues we get someone close to as good as Toriyama with decent knowledge about power scaling
great ape doesnt have a confirmed power level READING but his power level is...pretty much confirmed pretty sure in Saiyan saga Vegeta's power level was 18,000 meaning in great ape its 180,000
Buuuuut he was already beaten up and used up a lot of ki to make the artificial moon (which we all know was invented by Bardock, the brilliant scientist).
But how come ultimate gohan in the movie was able to fight against one of the gammas? You’re saying ultimate gohan is on par with MUI goku? Since you said the gammas are stronger then full power jiren?
We saw frieza who can destroy planets easily like 350 episodes ago. He came back at resurrection F and he just blow up the earth. Why man u should so much stronger than that. Why we still talkin about only planets. And why there's only couple of universes. Super's writing is bad (my opinion).
It’s pretty hard to make it seem like characters can destroy universes when the destruction of the universe means the end of the show, it’s not like destroying a small mountain that would cause no damage to anybody, destroying a universe basically ends the show. So they had to implement a ki system, yes it’s very brain dead but at least it’s something
Try to use log_10(power level) and power level = units of energy [joules], for example you can measure it in destruction, as a child Goku destroyed a car, as a teenager an island or the moon, in the Sayan saga a meteorite or small planet, then a sun, the solar system, finally it can destroy the universe when he bumps fists with Bils and in the tournament of power his ki formed a galaxy
This is the same problem with the marvel movies they create super powerful characters like thanos and jiren but after they’re defeated they need to introduce someone who’s far more stronger to keep it interesting. Like is goku stronger than beerus now? Cause in the first movie he said he was using 70% of his power and goku has gotten significantly stronger than ss red. I just think they don’t care about hardcore fans and want to bring in a fresher audience that’s why super is so different from the other arcs
I think this happens all the time, but eventually it does get a bit annoying, especially in powerscaling. Their solution is to make others stronger, such as beerus, and make villains more powerful.
Beerus said he's a 70% just to motivate goku to push even harder But in reality goku was closer in streght to a humman than he was to beerus during battel of gods
4:48 the great ape form multiplies your strength and power level 10 times and base vegeta back then had a power level of 18,000 his great ape power level is about 180,000
@@maxpullen9690 he would be 180,000 only if he was fresh ig, he had to use up a large chunk of energy to create that artificial moon plus all of his drains from the fight with goku. Being able to one shot the Ginyu force if someone just created the artificial moon for him is kinda stupid tho lmao.
i dont know if piccolo means goku and vegeta both at ssj blue or in the baseform, because he can't sense god ki, i think he may be referring to their base form.
I assume bare minimum blue forms as to be equal to Goku and Vegeta you have to be at a certain lvl of their forms and the ultimate forms are shown to be at the blue lvl and that was with a rust Gohan having at most a day or two of training
Love the ending of your vid, anything story wise that suggests Piccolo could beat one of the top multiversal characters from the tournament of power arc (literally a tournament to find the strongest characters in existence), not even much longer after it as well, fully shows the nonsensical nature of Dragon ball power scaling/fight logic in general, and why it's not worth debating.... I'm still stuck on the fact all these arcs have gone by with the main Saiyan characters getting stronger and stronger and beating exponentially stronger characters to the point they're relevant power wise to literal Gods, and any of the humans, or Namekians, or anybody who were around in pre dragon ball super arcs and weren't even relative to characters like Raditz or Napa could suddenly be anything but comparible to ants in arcs like the tournament of power... If they kept scouters and power levels around Goku would have a power level easily in the high billions (and any character who can even put up a fight with him or Neely introduced characters relevant to him should be extremely high), and with these earthlings we are talking about people who had power levels not even a 10th of a percentage of that... It's complete nonsense! completely nonsense that they could ever be relevant again, and it's insult to injury that they are without even an explanation or anything beyond "I trained off screen", this is literally insulting to anybody who takes the power scaling part of this show seriously or doesn't just watch it for cool fights, goofy scenes, and nostalgia baiting. It completely disregards the original show and the meaning behind things like being a Saiyan and going super Saiyan, how those were things that meant you could destroy planets and rival the leaders of galactic empires, making even most the Saiyan race look weak in comparison let alone humans (none of which originally could even rival Raditz or Napa), I could go on and on but it's just nonsense.
There is some nonsense boosts for sure, but there is a method to a lot of the madness. Saiyan zenkai boosts from near death battles. Concentrating ki to boost battle power. Unlocking hidden potential The merging ritual of the namekians Transformations(the most obvious) And in the newest arcs straight up use the dragon balls to wish for a higher power level. Otherwise it's just different types of training to increase power.
Goku have a pl in the billions already in Z. In super it is trillions or even more, totally no sense. Frieze with a pl of 120 millions would be totally irrelevant in cell and majin bu saga, where pls are already in the billions
Young moro was beating ui sign goku (this goku trained 6 months and mastered ui sign), then vegeta showed up went ssb evolution and was beating moro, in other words 1 arc after the top and we see a ssb evolution vegeta that is stronger than ui sign goku. To scale the gammas we can use the 2nd system you mentioned, gamma 1 was fighting on par with ultimate gohan who is close to ssb goku, meaning the gammas are ssb level. Since ssbe vegeta became stronger than ui sign in 1 arc, then 3 arcs later regular ssb vegeta would literally be far stronger than full power jiren, so yeah gammas win againt jiren😅 Great video btw
@@mbulut9896 However, that is contradicted by UIO Goku doing massively better in their fights with Moro before Spirit Fission weakens Moro. Vegeta even gets called out for getting slapped around at the beginning. Whereas UIO would have been enough had Goku improved his stamina in that state. Up to the point of Moro's statement, Vegeta woulda been his best meal since he had not feasted on Goku yet. - UIO Goku actively dodges the absorb; even once Goku is beaten and Moro attempts to feed, 17 & 18 immediately attack Moro.
Dbs scaling is indeed absurd, the moro arc put base piccolo > ToP arc blue/ultimate gohan/ssj kefla. This is because he destroyed half of 73 in ch. 56, the same 73 that enhanced his body absorbing ultimate gohan's charged kamehameha in ch. 54. And then it proceeds to put dbs: super hero base gohan on par with base piccolo, just cuz piccolo got 2 forms an ultimate form to match gohan's ultimate/blue level and orange to match the ultra levels, meaning base saiyan/piccolo or anyone that scales to their base > ToP blue/ssj kefla/ultimate gohan.
Another absurd thing is krillin scaling to android 18 in the super hero arc and base goten and trunks scaling to krillin when they fought hedo's dinosaur. Android 18 isn't the same as ToP at all, in the moro arc 18 = 17 in ch. 60 and 62, ToP arc 17 saved golden frieza from elimination in ch. 40 and goku stated so beerus in ch. 42 that 17 was around their levels (frieza, goku, vegeta and 17 were the last ones there), since dbs tends to scale krillin to base warriors (saiyan/piccolo), this is even more consistent to put current base piccolo or saiyans > ToP arc ssj blue/ultimate gohan.
The 73 argument is dumb. He used Moro's power to absorb Gohan's Kamehameha. So it was Moro's magic at the same level Moro had it when he had been copied. When Piccolo destroyed half of Seven-Three's body, Seven-Three was doing the Makkankosappo as well. But it was actually thanks to Gohan. And don't say Seven-Three could have used Moro's power here too. He was using Piccolo's. He cannot switch powers like that.
@@krpowe6663 73 used moro magic to lliterally upgrade his physical body, he ATE the kamehameha using magic. And even goichi said months after the moro arc that 73 was improved after saganbo stole him, 73 copies just last 30 min that already shows how he got stronger.
@@krpowe6663 He was using piccolo's power for special beam cannon but the point is his physical body was enhanced before that fight anyway this is literally stated by goichi in ch. 67, he used absorption and moro's absorption makes his own body stronger, not his magic. Saying "73 was using piccolo's copy" doesn't contradict him absorbing ultimate gohan's kamehahema from 2 months ago, 73 can use copy from ppl weaker than him without his own body getting weaker, it's like saying that if 73 copied guldo and used his slot to use his time stop abilities his body would get to guldo's level, and this is nonsense.
I noticed that you used “😭” in your vid. Just wanted to say, don’t give up anything in your life. I don’t know what you’re going through but I’m always here to help.
@@JFAMERICA np, it was when paragus called Broly to kill those huge bugs 😂, obviously his base power level greatly surpasses 100k as it climbed sooooo quickly but atleast in the broly movie the scouters can track up to 100,000 as their limits
great vid bro, great ape is a 10x but vegeta used a significant amount of energy for the artificial moon and was already weakened from his fight with goku
nah i full heartedly believe that gogeta ssj could have beaten broly "LSSJ" the fusion technique is also supposed to make gogeta stronger than the fp of both in base or sum like that i forgot
It depends really. Just without multipliers to make it non controversial, it should be goku vs a goku and vegeta. I guess it's hard to tell who would win between the two
@@9xFalse nah bro, rewacht the fight, the second broly becomes lssj a punch from gogeta is like nothing, in fact he changes in to blue after taking a punch beacause he knows he cant win in that state, also broly have is super durable, even when gogeta turned blue he had to use a lot of attack and energetic wave to break broly defense (sorry for bad english)
No, Gamma 1 & 2 are not even close to T.O.P. Jiren AT ALL, neither in anime or manga, Toriyama let clear that Orange Piccoro=Normal Super Saiyan Blue And Gamma 2 couldn’t even make Orange Piccolo flinch, T.O.P. Jiren was and is still far superior than a SSB, Jiren would just slap both of them and take them out without any real effort
Nope toryiama confirmed piccolo is on par with current Goku and Vegeta and the gammas scale to piccolo meaning they beat mui easily and broly movie gogeta and broly and also moro arc Goku 💀y'all just can't accept anything
@@e33bo1 Reading comprehension had abandoned you Toriyama confirmed that Orange Piccolo was on current SSB Goku and Vegeta This is also proved by the fact that Orange piccolo couldn’t even cause damage to Cell Max while Beast Gohan proved to be completing superior to Cell Max, and Beast Gohan fought MUI EQUALLY, so as a resume MUI goku = Beast Gohan > Cell Max >>> Orange Piccolo >>> Gammas Is not that hard ya know?
Gemma 1-2 are stated to be as strong as blue so no they aren’t stronger than jiren and piccolo can’t read god ki so he’d be talking around base or at least ss3
Ok, I can see what you mean, but here's my opinion. 1. I'm not 100% sure if gammas are stated to be equal to super saiyan blue, so that may be a personal opinion. 2. Even if Piccolo can't read God ki he's still capable of reading the opponents ki which usually isn't God ki (Ex., Moro, Granaloh, and Broly). In order for a fight to even be close, both fighters have to be similar to each other. So if someone like moro put up a fight against blue goku, then they are relatively close, and moro's ki can be sensed by Piccolo. To be clear, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to show a different perspective
@@JFAMERICA okay but he can’t read gokus ki and the Gemma’s don’t have ki so he can’t state anything so you’re saying the Gemma’s are stronger than the gods?
@spsfitnessstrudley7718 here's the thing, I know it's stated that Jiren is stronger than beerus. However this isn't true since in later arcs he says him fighting wouldn't be fair since he'd win easily. Even if Gammas are stronger than Jiren, they are nowhere near the level of the Gods
@spsfitnessstrudley7718 ok, I respect that. But in the anime, it's implied that beerus is weaker than Jiren. However, that's not the case in the manga, I apologize.
We've not seen jiren after TOP he definitely became stronger. You can atleast say he's as strong as goku If TOP 2 happens jiren isnt gonna be the main antagonist anymore you guys remember those 4 universes with high mortal power levels? They're gonna bring them too and many more powerful asf people's in my opinion jiren will be as strong as Goku they may help each other but at last Goku and vegeta gonna get a big powerup and win
saying that the z fighters each being able to, hypothetically, win in a 1v1 vs raditz is crazy, is just crazy. cause it took place one year before the saiyan saga and they all had time to train so they obviously got stronger, it's not something to be agreed on or not, it's a fact. ye it took both piccolo and goku to take down raditz but that's literally before everything
I got what you're saying, but for like those guys to have a "power level" of maybe 100 or 200, and then go to over 1,000 seems funny to me. However, I do agree with you, and I think they deserve this
I think people forget that the androids in dbz and dbs aint no regular androids. They’re strong because they utilize ki. Not saying db scaling is perfection. I mean just look at the androids they had in og db, they were ‘weak’ because they had no ki control.
@@JFAMERICA Its actually the opposite, feel free to look into and it but androids have an infinite capacity for ki (perpetual energy modules is what they call them) and since they aren’t living beings their ki cant be sensed.
@@JFAMERICA funny thing is, its really the opposite. Androids (The perpetual energy model’s: 16, 17 and 18) actually have infinite ki/ their ki capacity is always at 100%. And since they aren’t technically living beings their ki cant be sensed by living beings. I would definitely look into it but tbh you’re doing better than most db fans (some don’t actually watch the show) And also the gammas arent even suppressed ssj broly level so like hell their beating Jiren especially not current jiren.
so dumb to me that earth science solos the dragonball verse. So some chump on earth is able to make robots stringer than the GODS? And xeno nor the angels or GODS of destruction see earth as a massive threat? BS
I'd like for the powerlevels to keep increasing but slowly. Make the villains not stronger but have certain gimmicks or powers that the protagonist has to find a way to counter. Sort of like in Mashle (great show btw)
The first person to notice it probably. I do it because it's fun, and at the end of the day, I can't have an audience if I don't interact with them. Have a great day :)
6:27 When looking at this you also have to understands saibamen are newborn monsters somtimes witj a . Fear of death They aren’t exactly fighters And lack the tools required to be anywhere near as strong as raditz
Just using simple power levels, they are similar. However, with combat experience and battle iq, raditz could easily win most likely. Don't take this too seriously since the video is just for entertainment, and I'm not the author of Dragon Ball
![Ranking The Dragon Ball Sparking! Zero What Ifs from Worst to Best [Bumbles McFumbles]](/img/n.gif)
great video. (pin meh plis)
I actually did pin 📌
Thanks a lot bro
@@evelfighter9180why do you even need a pin?
@morkegamer it's cool
@@JFAMERICAbruh there are actually meaningful comments to pin not this beggar
Who would win? Alien from another universe stronger than a god of destruction, who fought to the end to save his universe and trained his entire life.
Or
Two androids created by a wannabe kid Gru from Despicable Me
I mean, Gru is pretty despicable
Lol
I always thought it was dumb that an earth scientist could build an android stronger than a character thay could beat a god of destruction
I guess that's why people think technology will replace us 🤔
Dude it's an anime
One of the Gods is a robot did you forget
One of the strongest people in the TOP was Aniraza who is a robot
Dr Gero made androids stronger than Frieza who could casually blow up planets with little resources and in hiding
That makes a lot of sense
@@CupidSmurf657the god wasn’t a robot, he was in a mech.
@@CupidSmurf657 tbf he was sponsored by the red ribbon army
Fun fact: Frieza is known as one of the strongest person in the universe and he owns like half the universe and he get's defeated by ssj Goku, than later when Vegeta get's ssj he get's ONE HIT by a android made by some random old dude, HOW DOES THAT WORK.
I'm not even sure, to be honest
Dbz is mostly inspired by superman's comics like superman beat powerful beings like darkseid but somehow suffers against some scientists like lex luthour i guess the same logic work here
@lamsaidthetrue2238 that definitely makes a lot of sense
I really think Frieza was just made too strong. Him being a thousand times stronger than his strongest underling threw off everything that was to follow.
@Pyrple I think to a certain extent it's fine since frieza was supposed to be the emperor of the universe, but he should've been the pinnacle of strength for a while
The series' marketing is always "This guy is the strongest we've ever seen" to make people watch it, as a result, Earth scientists can now make machines that can kill most Gods of Destruction
That's the one thing I dislike. I wish it was more like Mashle (if you've ever watched it) in how magic counters magic not because it's stronger but because it has some sort of advantage. It also involves a lot of thinking and strategy to be able to win a duel, unlike in Dragon Ball (most of the time).
@@danielendless what has gammas done that says the can beat god of destruction?
@Antonio-vn5xc They are atleast equal to ssb goku but some people think they may have refered to ultra instinct.
My main issue with dragon ball is how they make a character sound powerful and by the next arc, the next big bad guy is just stronger than the previous one not due to training or anything, literally just built like that from the gecko and the cycle repeats itself over and over again.
Like who is stronger, an alien who trained his whole life to beat anyone and it strong enough to beat a god of destruction or gohan cause he got a lil bit angy that day
Gohan because he has the potential to surpass everyone 🤓
I completely agree with this, and I do dislike this
just so yk its "from the get go" not "from the gecko" haha
@@dddelve english not my first language but i wont correct myself since its funnier this way
Who is this gecko guy giving these villains powers? He must be some kind of dragon like shenron.
The thumbnail is like “Who would win? An 8 foot tall jacked sumo wrestler or the Cat in the Hat’s assistants.”
The cat in the hat has toon force
Super's Power Scaling gets even harder to follow when there are several continuities with quite different scaling between them, the biggest example probably being the anime having Jiren pretty heavily implied to be stronger than Beerus, while the manga still has Beerus above current MUI Goku (which I believe was a poor writing choice but that's a whole other discussion lol)
I completely agree with you. Maybe I should specify whenever powerscaling in future videos
It’s not heavily implied at all he’s stronger than beerus that’s if you can’t read and hear what you want, “a mortal stronger than HIS god of destruction. And yes whis says Belmod is stronger than beerus he means in pure brute strength as he beat him in a arm wrestling match but actual combat is not even close beerus solod all the other gods in the manga
@@Nocing I mean, I referred to the anime having Jiren that strong lol. The anime doesn't have the GoD battle royale and has additional stuff like guides that say Jiren is just blatantly above the Gods of Destruction and the like.
@@creeperman1295 regardless of any of that you would still be wrong beerus is literally the strongest entity non Zeno, grand priest, or angel and he’s literally a moving goal post who is moved up in power anytime someone comes close so jiren is not stronger than beerus, jiren couldn’t beat fppsj broly let alone beerus. And yes gogeta would wash jiren.
The Android saga ruined it completely by allowing humans to make androids strong as planet to star to galaxy level from earth with no explanation
Pretty much, that's what happened
I think in Trunks' timeline the androids are reasonably weak, they were struggling to defeat one super saiyan on their own and had to tag team and after Trunks came back from the past he was capable of wiping them out, but still, super saiyan future Gohan is definitely as strong as Frieza at least
Its so funny that by having a good teacher someone could become a city leveling monster in 10 years of normal training and that would be considered weak in dragon ball
That is pretty sad
I've always thought that the fighting levels used in Dragonball were more a form of elitism that Frizer himself imposed on the multiple planets he conquered. Think about it, creating a readable power scale where you yourself are the most powerful thing in the universe sounds like something a tyrant would do to keep his subjects under control and with this give the very races he controls ways to prevent the birth of super soldiers outside the rules he set up, see what happened with Broly.
This does make a lot of sense, but another idea I have is that the system itself is possibly a natural thing that all fighters use to determine if they are capable of defeating certain fighters. If frieza knew this, then his power level being so high means that nobody wanted to challenge him, therefore becoming emperor of the universe and him having unquestionable authority over others, such as tyrants and kings throughout our history have until the magna carta was established.
Dragon ball power creep has always been absurd since the beginning of Z which slowly cranked it up over the course of the series. But super just brutally yanks that dial so hard into the maximum that the dial breaks off and the already dangerously overheated oven explodes.
This is the best description of dragon ball power scaling I've ever seen.
Yep, sounds about right.
Why did the oven explode? I wanted cookies 😭
Frr
@@JFAMERICA The oven was infused with nitroglycerin. for that extra dash of dramatic DragonBally-ness.
Remember roshi with a power of 200 destroyed the moon with a singke kamehameha
It's because Roshi is him
Technically it was 180.
@@MwateKawanje-uh9suwell he was bulimg up
I love how instead of answering the question at the very end of the video he just is like I don’t wanna talk about this.
I appreciate the love
It's because it would end up in lots of other questions coming to mind, and then it would be a 5-hour video
@@JFAMERICA we love power scaling I mean, I do like power scaling, but sometimes whenever you have inconsistent authors, it’s very painful to power scale people that’s why cartoon tortoise is able to destroy planets
@JoshuaBelanger-c2r I get that. This definitely makes it more stressing and confusing to think about
Yeah no, none of this makes sense. Ressurrection F shows Kame fighting off Frieza soldiers, which should be infinity times stronger than any earthling. That was the moment I knew they just don't give a shit about keeping track of any power levels anymore.
Yeah, at this point I'm Multiversal too
@@JFAMERICA ur over multi versal of anime, reality > fiction with no conception of diff
@firstname-d1e I appreciate it
@@JFAMERICA No problem, just rememerber, when goku says i heard ur strong, just say i heard that i can turn off the internet
@firstname-d1e thanks for the advice
Great Ape has a 10x multiplier.
Oh thanks for telling me, I had forgotten
Nah bro jiren is for sure stronger than the gamas. While direct evidence in terms of battles or explicit statements comparing Jiren directly to the Gamma is lacking, the context and feats from the series suggest that Jiren remains stronger. Jiren’s portrayal as a fighter capable of going toe-to-toe with Ultra Instinct Goku and surpassing the power of a God of Destruction gives him an edge over the Gamma androids, whose power is impressive but not depicted on the same universal threat level.
I could see this being true so I'll have to agree
I agree their is no way some cell wanna be is stronger then jiren
Humans being able to make robots stronger than the strongest being in the universe and then again make robots stronger than the strongest beings in all universes just proves that humans are the master race, not saiyans 💪🏿💪🏿😤
This confirms that Yamcha solos
Nice profile picture
Thanks
Racism lore?
While power scaling is fun to theorise over, it's ultimately meaningless, because characters are exactly as strong as they need to be at any moment for the story to happen. Anyone who treats it as important is genuinely missing the entire point of what it means to consume and analyse fiction.
This is also my point of view on power scaling. It is fun but actually enjoying the show is even better
I dunno man, when Batman beats Darkseid with his pinkie finger because the writer is a batman fanboy i dont see how that can be anything but awful writing.
@The90sDoggoGaming there are times when we are expected to have reading comprehension to know if what we're reading is comedic or a gag. There are other times whenever we can tell that what's being shown is the real deal
@@JFAMERICA Oh yeah of course that in the example i gave i was not counting with comedy since that plenty of times is meant to be absurd, but if you have read comics you know that Batman has done absurd feats that were not intended to be funny.
@The90sDoggoGaming maybe that's because batman with prep time solos
9:25 “here is my answer, I dont want to talk about power levels anymore” 😭🧍♂️
You perfectly embodied me in two emojis
The fact that little children like pan and bulla are considered as likely having higher pl’s than extremely high tier dbz character is just insane
It seems crazy but because of their genes, they have potential as fighters to surpass the saiyans
So by this logic orange piccolo tanks a punch from fp Jiren and sends him flying with absolute ease
By this logic he does
I'd say it depends on what the plot requires
@@JFAMERICA I do agree on if the plot requires which is why the whole power scale doesn’t add up at all
If it was just tournament of power Jiren yea, piccolo is absolutely destroying him, but obviously when he comes back he'll get stronger
@@giovannieriksandu2432 so green piccolo destroys mui?
4:44 The great ape is a 10x power up boost so Vegeta was nearly in the 200,000's
Thanks for telling me I had forgotten. I've been corrected on this though, and it seems his power level is about 180,000
Honestly, they should have specified that the Gammas were as strong as Goku and Vegeta in base form, or at most Super Saiyan.
The idea the Hedo made two androids at SSB level without knowing anything about Gods or God ki is absolutely absurd. And then to make a giant Cell copy that's as strong as a God of Destruction when it's incomplete?!
Yeah, nah, they threw out the powerscaling book with this movie. Beast Gohan really shouldn't be higher than Blue Evolved, otherwise there's no reason why Gohan doesn't just oneshot everything at this point...
I always headcanoned the Gammas as strong as base Goku and Vegeta. Cell Max is absurd tho
That's why I think the gammas are controversial characters when it comes to powerscaling. You are right though
Not to flex, but cell max isn't beating me 💪
@@JFAMERICA of course he can't, you're 3D.
I think?
@insertclevernamehere1186 I'm not 3d actually I'm 4d
Y'all forget that Jiren didn't die like many other arc villains so he's still alive and still getting stronger
I didn't forget, but we can't use a hypothetical Jiren, so I used Jiren from the TOP. Although I do think Jiren is much stronger now
This video feels like I’m on call with a friend it’s so nice
I'm glad you feel that way. I don't want my videos to be an annoying guy screaming 😭, so I go for a chill, normal me that hopefully people can consider a friend. I know it sounds funny, but if you like it, I'll keep doing it
To quote Vegeta: POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSHIT
They indeed are
From the beginning of the series Roshi can destroy the moon easley with less than 200 units of power
Then Vegeta 100 times stronger than Roshi can destroy the earth with his strongest attack
And then Freazzer with like 2 million units takes 5 minutes to destroy Namek
Yeah, the numbers go wild
I guess these are for plot convenience
Frieza is Dwarf Star level. The 5 minute thing is not indicative of Frieza's actual destructive ability (he literally blew up Planet Vegeta in his first form anyway).
@@inferno3054indeed namek destruction was collateral damage rather than a direct intention to destroy it
@@abdouaboud7490frieza literally tried to destroy it 💀
saying one of the gammas is stronger than jiren just because the arc is further in the story is like me saying krillin in the buu saga is stronger than Cell
Killing could potentially be stronger, but it's unlikely. I don't like it, but the statements made support the gammas being stronger than Jiren
@@JFAMERICA jiren was fighting blue goku golden freeza and android 17 at the same time, so no a statement from piccolo (a guy who cant even sense how strong goku blue is because he cant sense god ki) saying gamma is equivalent to ssj blue goku or vegeta actually confirms they are weaker than jiren, and cell is destroying buu saga krillin low diff
@sicko1up alright I respect your opinion
@@sicko1up why are you assuming that goku's power didn't increase between the arcs?
It was honestly pretty fine until late Frieza Saga where the slope of sensibility started to plateau, with damn near everyone involved in the arc spiking by hundreds upon thousands of times their own strength in literal days. Going from Vegeta tier planet busters, needing a considerable amount of power to _maybe_ be able to destabilize the core enough, to 1st Form Frieza, who could instantaneously detonate a planet if he blinked at it hard enough, is a drastic spike, but then there's the copious amounts of transformations, potential unlocks, zenkais, and probably some other plot conveni- I mean method of getting stronger that I'm forgetting. And then the plateau just goes head on into a tungsten wall because of some old man being able to MacGyver like 5 robots and cyborgs together out of a bunch of scrap in a cave in ye old Bumblefuck, Nowhere and they're somehow capable of being leagus above the likes of Frieza and Cold. Now we live in a world where Buuhan level threats would spontaneously dissolve into the aether if Krillin put too much force into a fist bump.
I agree. Now, every opponent has to challenge the strength of the God's. I feel like because goku and vegeta had no rival for a while, there was this thing of wishing to be the strongest in the universe with granolah and gas. This is just my opinion, but it just felt lazy a bit at least to me.
Imo, freeza was ok, aside from the numbers that were being given and zenkais.
Roshi and picollo both could destroy the moon, so its understandable that the next big bad can be stronger than that.
Gero also had at least an explaination to how he did it, and tbh, it was good enough, since it made sense, the androids were only as strong as everyone from before they were activated, with the pro of having infinite stamina/energy, but as soon as some of the fighters train, they lose.
And cell is a mix of everyone in the future + anyone he absorbs, with 17 and 18 being key pieced for him to evolve, the characters could have beaten him on his 1st and 2nd form, but not after that.
The problem with super power scaling is that they dont explain why, and when they do, it makes no sense.
Freeza closing a gap of years of training in 4 months is ridiculius, then doing that again using a time chamber is stupid.
Jiren is jiren, horribly design and boring.
Topo being "stronger than a god of destruction", and literally using the Power of one, and losing, is stupid, because beerus and the other gods are supposed to be the plot device that keeps goku and vegeta into training, they are never supposed to bevome stronger than them.
Granola wishing for himself to be the strongest is fine, the problem is that he wasnt a fighter, he should have had the power to match goku and vegeta, but not the experience to beat them.
Gas is the same.
@neonoah3353 I definitely agree. There should be some sense into why things happen
@@neonoah3353 The lead up the Frieza is where about it gets messy for me. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin are understandable enough because of zenkais and potential unlocks (I don't like them, but at least they're reasons). My ultimate breaking point, and where I think power scaling truly went flying off the handle, is with Piccolo, and not because of his merging with Nail. His merging with Nail was roughly a 10x increase of his current, pretty big boost that put him on equal footing with 2nd Form Frieza. It's a perfectly servicable reason, we saw it work it's magic again in the Cell and Universe Survival Sagas, but Piccolo's base power prior to it is an _enormous_ discrepancy when you actually acknowledge the number, 2,060,000 post merge. Divide it by 10. _Piccolo was at 260,000 before the merge._ How in fck's name did Piccolo get almost 75x stronger than he was in the Saiyan Saga in less than a week? What kind of protein shakes was Kaio giving him? I get Big Green is Toriyama's favorite character, but Jesus Christ that's a fanfic oc level of absolute bullshit that even his own self insert character is incapable of pulling. Putting strength into numbers was the single biggest mistake that man ever made with Z, simply getting a good deal stronger is fine, but when you introduce the ability to quantify that increase, sense just dissolves if it's too drastic, and Piccolo going from 3,500 to 260,000 (again, a near 75x increase) in 5 days when Goku only went from like 300 or so to 8,000 (still a big 20-something times jump but saiyans are bullshit so it's at least believable) over the course of an entire year is just, simply put, bogus.
Spread your shit bruh dont just leave a word sandwich when you switch thru multiple topics
I think Super power levels rn don't really vary much, except when new forms are achieved, and even then, they mostly don't change that drastically, like Vegeta's Blue Evolution, which has a more significant change aesthetically rather than in power so we barely saw it in the series. The forms that bring god ki to non god ki users like Beast and Orange really are huge tho
However, the forms do get powerups the next arc they are used, but this only happens once (like how Blue is introduced against Golden Freezer, but in the Black arc it gets a powerup related to Goku and Vegeta's mastery over it, and as stated in the manga is mostly about energy usage rather than power) so in later arcs their power is pretty much the same to us, needing another form to actually raise the bar even if it's just a little. It looks that we won't really get much new forms in the future with Ultra Ego & Instinct + Beast & Orange and arcs will continue using these which would be the best tbh
I really hope that they continue in this path as it is the best for the future of the series I think
The super hero movie was being produced before the moro arc was even a thing. The statement of Gamma 1 and 2 being as strong as Goku and Vegeta are referring to Broly Movie SSJB Goku and Vegeta who are both still weaker than Jiren.
Not only that but Piccolo cannot even SENSE god ki, therefore him making these statements, is narratively questionable.
Even a Gohan who hasn't done any proper training since the ToP arc was able to toe to toe with Gamma 2.
Training is also a baseless argument as Future Gohan trained for over a decade and was still fodder to a weaker set of androids.
Even in the confines of the SUPER HERO MOVIE. Jiren is still more powerful, as Vegeta states Jiren wasn't much more powerful than both Goku and Vegeta's full power but he was more efficient with ki usage. Even though this is a complete retcon and contradiction to the actual manga and anime where Jiren is just a complete powerhouse lol.
Going the anime route, this is correct 100%. However, the video is based on the manga for the most part, but it's interesting to hear your thoughts about this
@@JFAMERICA Fair enough then
the movie saying that jiren is not that strong is bullshit. He tanked goku and vegeta in "Blue 2" and he was not even at full power
I would agree, but for some reason, every villain is exponentially stronger, so the characters are just strong to the point where it doesn't make sense
I still don't get the fact how Broly was able to fight on par with Vegeta and Goku
He's supposed to be a mutant or "the legendary super saiyan," so his thing is being absurdly strong
@JFAMERICA you're not the first person to say that but it still doesn't make any sense apparently he's been on the planet that and his father will put on as long as Goku has been on Earth, and Goku has years! years of combat experiences, Broly doesn't, and like....he just somehow someway magically is able to fight two Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans? And a hold up with a said fusion of them? It's just....bull shit.
@GMan-bn3tb I get the frustration, but being this mutant comes with certain advantages.
Broly can adapt quickly, so as vegeta didn't go all out at first, Broly had a chance to adapt to the increasing power, leading to fusion being the only option.
Broly has lots of potential, making him like Gohan and Frieza that power up randomly. This also ties to the adaptability that Broly has.
Extreme power is another thing that he has, so he doesn't only adapt to the current strength. He makes them power up more. This, in turn, leads to a rinse and repeat of powering up, adapting, and power up again.
One of the last things is him being a Saiyan, which is a warrior race. So Broly, just like Goku and Vegeta has no limits (agl dokkan bums).
I hope this helps a bit, but I do understand the confusion you have.
@GMan-bn3tb Broly is the same age as Goku and Vegeta, and he was doing some very mild training with Paragus on Vampa.
In case you forgot, Base Vegeta was absolutely destroying Broly until Broly began to adapt and gain his transformations such as Ikari and Super Saiyan. Adaptability is the entire reason Broly is as strong as he is, and his father being so weak is the reason his adaptability never came into play.
You're free to be as much of a disbeliever as you want, but the logic holds up. Your internal logic just sucks.
@inferno3054 it's not a matter of Logics and facts, one, Vegeta is older than both Goku and Broly, Broly is the same age as Goku. What I'm saying is it makes no sense it just feels like a cheap cop out to just make him strong. It feels like a dumb excuse where at least with the original Broly it makes out because he was just going around destroying planets. It made more sense if it just gave him a massive boost of power instead of this dumbass adaptability, it makes everything Vegeta and Goku went through seem like a joke if Broly can just "adapt" and gain strength that he honestly doesn't deserve. Hell, even Jiren had to work for his strength, he didn't just wake up that strong.
Radditz really was a weak, low-level warrior. He would have been on the weak end for a frieza soldier, and they can grow saibamen as strong as him.
He really was weak. It's crazy to think that a weaker saiyan could've conquered the whole earth if they wanted to at the time
@@JFAMERICAactually kakaroy if he hadn't hit his head would've invaded it with 400 units
@abdouaboud7490 if you mean goku, I don't remember him being 400, but I may have forgotten.
Dragon ball can fix this easily if they focus on techniques skills and tactics to win fights instead of just pure strength and power output
Yes I completely agree
Dragon Ball Super COULD have fixed it but now its far too late. DB is too broken.
Oh well that’s literally what they were doing in tournament of power, where you can’t kill opponent and you have to push him out of the area, that’s why in that arc the most important thing was tactics, battle iq, and teamwork (excluding power since it’s obviously the most important thing)
7:24 casually a fat human dwarf build 2 robots stronger than Jiren 💀, put this mf to make an army and protect every universe
The concentration of ki to raise power levels is critical. Lots of people misunderstand the fight with raditz and think that certain attacks have specific multipliers. It can really mess up consistent scaling.
That does make sense especially later on in the show
As an addition, UI was not a transformation created by Toryama, the creators of super just wanted to end the arc with a transformation because the beginning of the anime was bad (he created the design tho). Every main character is supposed to be around super Saiyan blue level
That's interesting, I didn't know this
@@JFAMERICA the Broly movie is closer to Toryama's version. It ignores the existence of UI, it ignores that they fused against Zamasu (he wasn't supposed to be a fusion level treat, if you look at the fights in the manga it is way more balance when he fights against Goku alone).
The movie also puts Jiren around blue level and sets the ideia that at that level of power is more about abilities then new forms and etc
@carlospaim3287 I never thought about it that way
UI was a Toriyama concept. What the anime added was UI sign. Originally it was just going to be Goku going straight to full UI.
@@michaelshields6326I still don’t understand how sign works to archive ultra instinct uou have to move and think autonomously correct ? So how are you using the technique if you’re not in “full” UI that doesn’t make sense shouldn’t it be you’re either in UI or you’re not based off the question I asked previously
wasnt piccolo stated to be on the level of ultra instinct goku? and he easily took one of the gamma's in a single hit, so id assume jiren is stronger
Honestly, you may be right, but assuming that ultra instinct gets stronger throughout the arcs, that means that piccolo is equal to an ultra instinct goku that is way stronger than the TOP mui that beat/close to beating Jiren depending on how you view it. The tricky thing is if you think that the gammas are equal to or stronger than TOP mui, which is on a level equal to Jiren. Depending on what you think, it heavily changes your perspective on the fight.
Orange Piccolo vs. Full power Jiren(anime) would be an excellent fight.
@@JFAMERICA JIREN IS ALSO GETTING STRONGER THO, he is training hard for his next fight against goku
@user-nt-89 it's true, but I can't predict how strong he'll be next time, so I have to use "curent" Jiren.
powercaling was allways garbage and allways will be
I do agree but it is a fun concept to think about
@@JFAMERICAreal but some people make it their entire lives
A lot of people seem to forget that part about Goku and Piccolos power levels rising while fighting Raditz. I was waiting for it. Well done, homie.
No problem homie 🫡
This video makes me nostalgic for those super old videos we had on TH-cam back in the day where fans would predicut what future Super Saiyan transformations would look like while Linkin Park or something else blasts in the background.
Good old days man....
Base Goku to Super Saiyan 100 Goku
Gamma's being strong enough to destroy universes is just stupid. I feel like human capabilites of making robots (in terms of power) should cap at around A18
Definitely
Goku being scratched by bullets just shows how inconsistent powerscaling is.. just like drugs DOND DU IT
This is a good video don’t get me wrong however I have a different take on this: I think that the power scaling is justified because of the fact that these fighters are among some of the greatest fighters on their respective planet and even universe considering some of the z fighters got to be selected to fight on universe 7’s team. And not to mention most of them are aliens so it makes sense they can power up so much. (Piccolo, all the saiyans, even tien.) outliers are of course krillin and Yamaha but these guys are just some amazing fighters compared to the average joe.
I definitely agree. However, it seems that these guys can just grow infinitely until the day they die. With the rate that they grow its very rapid that it makes their power seem obnoxious. This is just my opinion, and I respect your opinion
@@JFAMERICA I respect that 🙂
@@joshuahenneberg6020 This ! Many people forgot this.
Seriously a human scientist can make a robot on pair with the power of a god. And people still say Base goku solos Saitama i mean literally wtf..
Definitely not base, but it seems you guessed what my next video is 😭
@@JFAMERICA Yep, I will be waiting for your next video 👍😅
Give me about a week or two :)
@@JFAMERICA Okay 👍 :)
@crackermc it depends as Saitama is a gag character and his power depends on plot
They need a new tier system, the power level one dosen't work. I can't take the fights seriously if it dosen't show or explain WHY a fighter is stronger than the other, what's so special about Black Frieza or The Gammas for example?
I am also confused about how that works
Its just a character made 30 years ago but with a different color. Dragon ball has become dull garbage
@caralho5237 I personally think that the enjoyment from the series is great. I've been enjoying Daima, so I personally don't think it's garbage even though the power scaling doesn't make sense.
@@JFAMERICA I havent watched daima yet bro, just to be clear i was talking about super
@caralho5237 I figured that you were talking about super, but I just wanted to tell you that just because super may be garbage that other parts of the franchise like Daima are very enjoyable
Oh you only found out now? I thought everyone knew that dragon balls power scaling is extremely outdated compared to the recent anime, that just confirms that Akira tori Yama couldn’t evolve as an mangaka, and stayed at the same level for decades
I always knew, but I made the video to use my voice to express others' ideas
Has it been confirmed by an official source that the Dragonball Super Hero movie is canon to the manga?
Because if it isn't we can ignore the Moro and Granola arcs, and all the powerscaling that comes with them.
The movie is an anime adaptation of DBS Super Hero. The manga has a whole arc dedicated to super hero so I believe it may be relevant.
@@JFAMERICAopposite, manga is an adaptation of the movie
Oh ok thanks for correcting me
To help out your android argument look at even the original android arc. They were on par with super saiyans despite the fact Dr gero had never seen a super before. It could be argued he and 19 were made to nullify ki through absorption which is a great way for gero to control his own creations.
Hedo had footage of every fight they've had minus time travel shenanigans and the tournament of power.
These scientists were capable of pumping out warriors multitudes of power higher than their adversaries.
And in a way this shows ki flow and control are the ultimate base of power scaling, and that base power level doesn't matter. Which is why the weight has been placed on mastering forms since the cell saga.
In addition to this look at how piccolo fought frieza after fusing with nail. You'd assume the base power boost is what did it, but piccolo powered up and changed his aura multiple times to confront frieza with a dynamic fighting style. Piccolo has always been on par specifically because of his mastery of ki rather than because of his fusions.
This makes a lot of sense. I appreciate you taking time out of your day (or night) to make these comments
bro tried to slip in that the gamma are stronger than jiren
ssbk times 50 goku was effortlessly pushed back by jiren. Goku in ui is still struggling against jiren. Mui is slightly above jiren. Keep in mind an enraged ultimate gohan is stronger than the gammas. And ultimate gohan is ssb level. Yeah nice try buddy.
Ultimate Gohan is NOT ssb lvl@@Zac-fj5fo
@Zac-fj5fo goku never went kaioken times 50, I think you mean 20. But if that's what you believe it's ok
@@JFAMERICA maybe manga vs anime differences? I belive they go higher in the manga, might be making that up
@MrDylanButton I looked it up, and it said that x20 is the highest ever gone in both the anime and the manga
Dragon Ball’s power scaling has been busted since the late Freeza saga. I don’t think there was ever going to be a way to really fix it after certain writing decisions were made around that time, and it’s been a pretty fuzzy thing ever since.
I do agree that things could've been done better. Right now, we should forget about scaling and just enjoy the show
That's why i just ignore the whole power level discourse, numbers don't mean a thing in a fight
The idea of it seems fun, but some people take it very seriously. Better off just enjoying the fights
The series straight up *tells* us as much tbh….with Vegeta figuring out they’re basically useless when Ki control is factored in
Yeah no shot the gammas who jumped base piccolo at the same time and failed to kill him are even close to Goku or Vegeta in their best forms at that time.
It may not make sense, but the purpose of Super Hero is to make Piccolo and Gohan equal to or surpass Goku and Vegeta. Therefore, the gammas should be very strong. However, the debate comes in whether you think they can beat Jiren or not.
@@JFAMERICAthe fuc you mean close to jiren lmaoooo
They should ssb max top
@abdouaboud7490 That's your opinion, and I get that. But for Gohan and Piccolo to be Goku and Vegeta level, the gammas have to be relatively close to Jiren. That's just my thought though and may be wrong.
Jiren says he always training, i would assume jiren could still body them. Im sure the writers would buff up jiren to their level or even stronger the next time they met. I mean thats been jirens whole thing, getting stronger
If Jiren comes back to the story, this could be true
Jiren bodies both of them with training or not. These 2 "strongest" android where fighting equally to piccolo with his potential unlocked. Which doesn't even scale that high.
It's most likely that they made a tough estimate of Goku's power lvl. Because, god ki CANNOT be sensed by mortals
@elpapuxDDReal it's possible that they scaled goku and vegeta up to their blue transformation. I think that's scalable only because they've had numerous battles in that state. They could scale their opponents powers, but still it isn't a good way to measure their power as they are constantly evolving in strength. I don't think they have measured mui or vegetas ultra ego. Nothing the androids have showed, shows me that can come even close to those levels so idk. We gotta just take the writers words for it because some stuff is hard to imagine until we see mfs fight
Little bro
He ain't going back
@IDKSS he's probably forgotten
Here's some power scaling,
By broly movie Ssb is as strong as Omen 3 Goku in TOP and that's only blue, he then gets much stronger to the point where Ultimate Gohan can't keep up with his blue forms movements in moro Arc so at the very least he'd be several times stronger and this isn't counting the fact Gammas been stated to be stronger than Goku and Vegeta (Blue) and this is post Granola arc meaning these versions are way stronger than Jiren as Goku stated Moro stronger than anyone he's faced and his power is relative to Granola arc Blue 😂
This is insane 😭
First of all, the Broly movie's scaling applies to the anime, not the manga. The manga version of Broly has slightly different events and scaling. It's pretty consistent for Toyotarou to have his own interpretation of events and scaling when it comes doe the adaptation of movies into the manga.
Secondly, there's no evidence that Goku has reached his UIO3 level by the time of the Broly movie. Likewise, in the manga, there's no evidence that Goku has reached that level of power in the Broly saga.
While it is contentious as to whether or not post training SSJB Goku and Vegeta have surpassed Jiren and TOP UI Goku in the GPP saga, I won't dispute it, as there's no evidence against it.
However, in the Superhero arc, Piccolo only stated that they are about AS STRONG as Goku and Vegeta. It's never stated that they are superior to them. But yeah, they definitely clap Jiren by that point.
@@jimiafolabi8016 the Broly movie didn't have a manga version, they just had a page saying "go watch the movie scrub"
@gukeoke6312 calling us scrub is crazy 😭
Jiren can destroy the Gammas in a second with his gaze, just because the characters are from a posterior saga does not mean they are stronger
I mean, his gaze doesn't mean he will destroy them as other characters have survived his gaze, but other than that, I respect your opinion
well, Goku says Moro is the strongest opponent. And Granolah is stronger than Moro because of the wish. its fair to say that they keep getting stronger.
Well in dragon ball it is like this
Each arc everyone gets exponenetially stronger unless explicitly stated not to
@@Kacper-jw3bvyeah but the thing is that it only works for the main villain, like cell max is stronger than granolah who’s stronger than Moro who’s stronger than jiren
@@morkegamer im not sure about it
Obviously villains do always get that plot relevancy power boost as well as their henchmen but main cast also trains between arcs unless its directly stated they dont like with krilin and gohan but they can always just do a couple pushaps and now they are strong enough for the story and they somehow ,,keep up" with their new found enemies to fight obviously except the main ones
the problem with power scaling in z to me comes from zenkai boosts and frieza but I would argue the problem begins in dragon ball when king piccolo gets introduced and them not letting tien be able to deal with a single one of king piccolo's kid creature things when goku and tien had a very close match a few episodes prior and they power up goku to deal with it and introduce yanjirobie someone who supposedly hasn't had any training and lived like a caveman by himself can beat some of those underlings while tien someone who trained as martial artist most of his life can't because reasons
Yeah i agree ... Power levels are bs ...
Roshi in the saiyan saga could have defeated both vegeta and nappa with ease ... Bcuz if someone can stand and dodge hits from jiren .. He could have even killed frieza in namek saga ...
.. And somehow in dragon ball krillen who is a normal human . He can reach gods levels by just being a side kick in every arc and train basic training ... If he did that .. Why other charecters couldn't ... King vegeta power level is 18k .. After all of the battles he went through and being a saiyan on top of that.. But a normal human can reach thousands time higher than that cuz the plot needs him to be ... Dragon ball could have been a millon time better if they made the power increasing lower than that ...
This is crazy to think about
Early z rage boost can go from a 5x boost to a 400x boost so yeah absolute insane
If that's how they are, then I'll always be angry (I need the 400x boost)
It’s crazy you can say like top (tournament of power) goku at Mui power level is 3 ( just an example!) then 2 years later his base for is 8
It's crazy to say that, but that's true
Goku post his battle against Beerus lmao
@@Skrunniyeah no, maybe he did got stronger in base but not by a colossal amount, I mean they didn’t show it at all, there was literally no difference
Nearly every time somebody tries to perceive their opponents abilities as a simple quantity they lose. You were told power scaling was a stupid concept in the canon.
I agree, and even though powerscaling is mostly irrelevant now, the fights are still simply who's stronger than who in 90% of cases
0:21 how is rose goku black weaker than golden frieza? He’s a pre t-o-p ssjb Goku
Idk these aren't my polls. I choose Rose to troll
Fredo had more potential maybe
@FoxBigelow I assume you mean frieza?
@FoxBigelow you could argue rose being weaker than frieza but that could be a whole video on its own
@@JFAMERICA He means Freezetoe
6:22 when talkin about saibamen you should take look at the experience of fighter. Pure strenght can mean something, but dragon ball showed us already in namek saga that "scouters sucks" and that enemies too much rely on them, so saibamen may be as strong as raditz, but they are fucking plants that just got born, while raditz have some fighting experience. Akira tried to decrease the importance of power level but its too sick tbh
Yes, fighting experience does matter, but whenever the power level is too high, the fighter can't do much. However I do agree and I should've probably said something about that
Base Goku
*Strength*: In *Battle of Gods*, Goku shook the DBS macrocosm, which includes heaven, which is stated to transcend dimensionality, along with the infinite time chambers. Since time chambers are a form of technology and there is an infinite universe, as repeatedly stated in the guidebooks, there are guaranteed to be an infinite number of them. (Time chambers are described as dimensions numerous times, so he shook infinite different dimensions.)
Btw for those people who claim that it was never stated and the statement was trancend dimensions you’re wrong and even if you were right that’s still low outerversal. Under Low Outerversal we see “As a general rule-of-thumb, statements of being “above dimensions” and the like, whenever validly indicating a superiority over higher dimensions, fall under this tier without further context.“
He achieved a similar feat too BOG earlier against Janemba in SSJ3 when he shook heaven again, showing that even back then he was outerversal.
Given that he shook the macrocosm in SSG and absorbed SSG in base form, this places his base form at outerversal.
*Speed*: He moved in the Null realm and in Heaven, both of which are described as absent of time, showing he has infinite speed.
is 5th Dimensional it’s safe to say he has Immeasurable Speed. The concept of 5th-dimensional beings often involves properties beyond our usual understanding of space and time. If these beings exist in a 5th dimension, they could potentially move through time and space in ways that are beyond our 3-dimensional perspective. This could make their movement seem instantaneous or immeasurable from our 3-dimensional viewpoint. Essentially, their "speed" is difficult to quantify because their dimension includes possibilities that our current understanding of time and space cannot fully grasp. - Immeasurable Speed
*Durability*: He survived full-power hits from individuals far stronger than his base form, placing him at outerversal.
*BIQ & Combat Skill*: As a martial artist since birth, he learned under multiple gods and angels, including Kami, Beerus, Whis, and King Kai, as well as from martial arts masters such as Master Roshi.
*Experience & Combat Experience*: He is in his mid-40s and has been fighting essentially his entire life.
*Abilities*: He has too many abilities to count, probably around 50+. Some of his abilities include:
- Kamehameha
- Instant Transmission
- Spirit Bomb
- Kaio-ken
- Telepathy
- Flight
- Energy Blasts
- Energy Manipulation
- Enhanced Strength
- Enhanced Speed
- Enhanced Durability
- Regeneration
- Martial Arts Mastery
- Enhanced Senses
- Ki Sensing
- Power Suppression
Lowball -Outerversal, Immeasurable Speed, Outerversal Durability.
Realistic - Outerversal , Immeasurable Speed, Outerversal Durability.
Highball - High Outerversal, Immeasurable Speed, High Outerversal Durability. (This is due to a Toriyama Statement saying the multipliers are beyond mathematical measure past ssj3, which dbs base goku is stronger than, that is a high outerversal feat)
Great explanation, better than I did, and if you don't mind, I'll need you as my lawyer
@JFAMERICA lol I got this stuff on a word document, but yeah I'm assuming he's intended to be multiversal by Toriyama but Toriyama knows nothing about power scaling so he kept accidentally adding outer plus feats to the mix. It's even worse when he stated "none of the statements in dragon ball were hyperboles" sucks he's gone but hopefully if it continues we get someone close to as good as Toriyama with decent knowledge about power scaling
@Sinfluxx yeah I definitely hope so
how do yall yap this much about power levels in japanese cartoons 💀
@tlp4454 to be honest, they probably enjoy doing this. I would only do this if it was required for college or something
How can someone stronger than his god of destruction be weaker than some robot? This doesn’t seem right
It's pretty dumb for sure
Great ape always equal 10x the power level. So great ape Vegeta had 180k power level.
Thanks for reminding me
Probably not, because he was already injured
I would say 50K
Bro has insane potential literally soo underrated
Thanks, dude. I appreciate it. Definitely not more potential than Broly, Frieza, and Gohan for sure
great ape doesnt have a confirmed power level READING
but his power level is...pretty much confirmed
pretty sure in Saiyan saga Vegeta's power level was 18,000 meaning in great ape its 180,000
Thanks a lot for telling me, I'll keep it in mind
Buuuuut he was already beaten up and used up a lot of ki to make the artificial moon (which we all know was invented by Bardock, the brilliant scientist).
But how come ultimate gohan in the movie was able to fight against one of the gammas? You’re saying ultimate gohan is on par with MUI goku? Since you said the gammas are stronger then full power jiren?
So it sounds crazy but the anime and manga are different. If going off the anime, Gohan could be weaker. Off the manga, Gohan is stronger.
Were the gammas not compared to SSJB goku?
well, yeah. Gohan and Goku sparred in a recent chapter and Gohan actually gave Goku a hard time
We saw frieza who can destroy planets easily like 350 episodes ago. He came back at resurrection F and he just blow up the earth. Why man u should so much stronger than that. Why we still talkin about only planets. And why there's only couple of universes. Super's writing is bad (my opinion).
Ok I can respect this
ap and dc are not the same thing also he was on the ground if he got up to use a real attack vegeta wouldve killed him
It’s pretty hard to make it seem like characters can destroy universes when the destruction of the universe means the end of the show, it’s not like destroying a small mountain that would cause no damage to anybody, destroying a universe basically ends the show. So they had to implement a ki system, yes it’s very brain dead but at least it’s something
@@morkegamer i think 12 universe logic is bad, they could make infinite universes and if we had infinite universes we could destroy couple :d
@kayramoraless that would be cool
The awful scaling is a huge turn off anyway
Didn't know you were into dating animes
Jk, but scaling can ruin an anime. However, the characters in DB are enjoyable so we still love the show (at least I do)
Try to use log_10(power level) and power level = units of energy [joules], for example you can measure it in destruction, as a child Goku destroyed a car, as a teenager an island or the moon, in the Sayan saga a meteorite or small planet, then a sun, the solar system, finally it can destroy the universe when he bumps fists with Bils and in the tournament of power his ki formed a galaxy
This seems a bit difficult but I could give it a try
@@JFAMERICA or just extrapolate power levels on a logarithmic scale, I think it makes sense
@the_nuwarrior thanks I'll keep it in mind for the next powerscaling video
If anyone who consumes Dragon Ball needs an explanation on "Scouters" they may want to try a different different series, maybe Cailou or CoComelon.
This is insane 😭
The great ape form has a 10x multiplier
Thanks for telling me
This is the same problem with the marvel movies they create super powerful characters like thanos and jiren but after they’re defeated they need to introduce someone who’s far more stronger to keep it interesting. Like is goku stronger than beerus now? Cause in the first movie he said he was using 70% of his power and goku has gotten significantly stronger than ss red. I just think they don’t care about hardcore fans and want to bring in a fresher audience that’s why super is so different from the other arcs
I think this happens all the time, but eventually it does get a bit annoying, especially in powerscaling. Their solution is to make others stronger, such as beerus, and make villains more powerful.
Beerus said he's a 70% just to motivate goku to push even harder
But in reality goku was closer in streght to a humman than he was to beerus during battel of gods
So basically over 9000
It is indeed over 9000
4:48 the great ape form multiplies your strength and power level 10 times and base vegeta back then had a power level of 18,000 his great ape power level is about 180,000
Thank you for telling me, I appreciate it
@ np
@@maxpullen9690 he would be 180,000 only if he was fresh ig, he had to use up a large chunk of energy to create that artificial moon plus all of his drains from the fight with goku. Being able to one shot the Ginyu force if someone just created the artificial moon for him is kinda stupid tho lmao.
@@eerierpk thanks for letting me know
@@eerierpk that's assuming Ginyu doesn't steal his body!
i dont know if piccolo means goku and vegeta both at ssj blue or in the baseform, because he can't sense god ki, i think he may be referring to their base form.
I'm not even sure at this point
I assume bare minimum blue forms as to be equal to Goku and Vegeta you have to be at a certain lvl of their forms and the ultimate forms are shown to be at the blue lvl and that was with a rust Gohan having at most a day or two of training
Love the ending of your vid, anything story wise that suggests Piccolo could beat one of the top multiversal characters from the tournament of power arc (literally a tournament to find the strongest characters in existence), not even much longer after it as well, fully shows the nonsensical nature of Dragon ball power scaling/fight logic in general, and why it's not worth debating....
I'm still stuck on the fact all these arcs have gone by with the main Saiyan characters getting stronger and stronger and beating exponentially stronger characters to the point they're relevant power wise to literal Gods, and any of the humans, or Namekians, or anybody who were around in pre dragon ball super arcs and weren't even relative to characters like Raditz or Napa could suddenly be anything but comparible to ants in arcs like the tournament of power... If they kept scouters and power levels around Goku would have a power level easily in the high billions (and any character who can even put up a fight with him or Neely introduced characters relevant to him should be extremely high), and with these earthlings we are talking about people who had power levels not even a 10th of a percentage of that... It's complete nonsense! completely nonsense that they could ever be relevant again, and it's insult to injury that they are without even an explanation or anything beyond "I trained off screen", this is literally insulting to anybody who takes the power scaling part of this show seriously or doesn't just watch it for cool fights, goofy scenes, and nostalgia baiting. It completely disregards the original show and the meaning behind things like being a Saiyan and going super Saiyan, how those were things that meant you could destroy planets and rival the leaders of galactic empires, making even most the Saiyan race look weak in comparison let alone humans (none of which originally could even rival Raditz or Napa), I could go on and on but it's just nonsense.
I do agree with this as it just becomes very confusing, so that's why the video sort of ends instead of going into much detail
There is some nonsense boosts for sure, but there is a method to a lot of the madness.
Saiyan zenkai boosts from near death battles.
Concentrating ki to boost battle power.
Unlocking hidden potential
The merging ritual of the namekians
Transformations(the most obvious)
And in the newest arcs straight up use the dragon balls to wish for a higher power level.
Otherwise it's just different types of training to increase power.
Goku have a pl in the billions already in Z. In super it is trillions or even more, totally no sense. Frieze with a pl of 120 millions would be totally irrelevant in cell and majin bu saga, where pls are already in the billions
Young moro was beating ui sign goku (this goku trained 6 months and mastered ui sign), then vegeta showed up went ssb evolution and was beating moro, in other words 1 arc after the top and we see a ssb evolution vegeta that is stronger than ui sign goku.
To scale the gammas we can use the 2nd system you mentioned, gamma 1 was fighting on par with ultimate gohan who is close to ssb goku, meaning the gammas are ssb level.
Since ssbe vegeta became stronger than ui sign in 1 arc, then 3 arcs later regular ssb vegeta would literally be far stronger than full power jiren, so yeah gammas win againt jiren😅
Great video btw
You probably explained it better than I did
Wasn't vegeta winning due to spirit fission
@chadku it's possible that he was, I don't remember, so I can't confirm
@@chadku moro said that vegeta was going to be his best meal yet, meaning he had the most power then
@@mbulut9896 However, that is contradicted by UIO Goku doing massively better in their fights with Moro before Spirit Fission weakens Moro.
Vegeta even gets called out for getting slapped around at the beginning. Whereas UIO would have been enough had Goku improved his stamina in that state.
Up to the point of Moro's statement, Vegeta woulda been his best meal since he had not feasted on Goku yet.
- UIO Goku actively dodges the absorb; even once Goku is beaten and Moro attempts to feed, 17 & 18 immediately attack Moro.
I agree to it being absurd and this is one of the reasons why i love dragon ball power scaling
I love to powerscale, but people take it too seriously that I dislike it a bit
Dbs scaling is indeed absurd, the moro arc put base piccolo > ToP arc blue/ultimate gohan/ssj kefla. This is because he destroyed half of 73 in ch. 56, the same 73 that enhanced his body absorbing ultimate gohan's charged kamehameha in ch. 54.
And then it proceeds to put dbs: super hero base gohan on par with base piccolo, just cuz piccolo got 2 forms an ultimate form to match gohan's ultimate/blue level and orange to match the ultra levels, meaning base saiyan/piccolo or anyone that scales to their base > ToP blue/ssj kefla/ultimate gohan.
Another absurd thing is krillin scaling to android 18 in the super hero arc and base goten and trunks scaling to krillin when they fought hedo's dinosaur.
Android 18 isn't the same as ToP at all, in the moro arc 18 = 17 in ch. 60 and 62, ToP arc 17 saved golden frieza from elimination in ch. 40 and goku stated so beerus in ch. 42 that 17 was around their levels (frieza, goku, vegeta and 17 were the last ones there), since dbs tends to scale krillin to base warriors (saiyan/piccolo), this is even more consistent to put current base piccolo or saiyans > ToP arc ssj blue/ultimate gohan.
I didn't know all of this, but this indeed is insane
The 73 argument is dumb. He used Moro's power to absorb Gohan's Kamehameha. So it was Moro's magic at the same level Moro had it when he had been copied.
When Piccolo destroyed half of Seven-Three's body, Seven-Three was doing the Makkankosappo as well.
But it was actually thanks to Gohan.
And don't say Seven-Three could have used Moro's power here too. He was using Piccolo's. He cannot switch powers like that.
@@krpowe6663 73 used moro magic to lliterally upgrade his physical body, he ATE the kamehameha using magic.
And even goichi said months after the moro arc that 73 was improved after saganbo stole him, 73 copies just last 30 min that already shows how he got stronger.
@@krpowe6663 He was using piccolo's power for special beam cannon but the point is his physical body was enhanced before that fight anyway this is literally stated by goichi in ch. 67, he used absorption and moro's absorption makes his own body stronger, not his magic.
Saying "73 was using piccolo's copy" doesn't contradict him absorbing ultimate gohan's kamehahema from 2 months ago, 73 can use copy from ppl weaker than him without his own body getting weaker, it's like saying that if 73 copied guldo and used his slot to use his time stop abilities his body would get to guldo's level, and this is nonsense.
I noticed that you used “😭” in your vid. Just wanted to say, don’t give up anything in your life. I don’t know what you’re going through but I’m always here to help.
Not to be mean but go back to tiktok bro 😭🙏
I'm just kidding I thought it was funny to see this
@@JFAMERICA jk too great vid btw
@jawspinner5625 I appreciate it bro
It’s not absurd, it’s a joke
That is another way to describe it
I mean cheelai tracked brolys power level in base and I read 100,000 before it hit error but this is valid
This makes sense, and thanks for telling me
@@JFAMERICA np, it was when paragus called Broly to kill those huge bugs 😂, obviously his base power level greatly surpasses 100k as it climbed sooooo quickly but atleast in the broly movie the scouters can track up to 100,000 as their limits
great vid bro, great ape is a 10x but vegeta used a significant amount of energy for the artificial moon and was already weakened from his fight with goku
Thanks, I'll keep it in mind for future videos
Power levels are bullshit - Vegeta.
Real
People need to understand they are as strong as the writer describes
For most people, that is something hard to accept
@@JFAMERICAI don’t think it that, because we have to sit there and accept a space alien that can destroy planets and life stealing androids.
I respect that
Bro, how do you think a SSJ gogeta can possibly beat a mui goku??
Goku and vegeta blue
I'm not sure but i think Goku mui is stronger than gogeta blue (in t.o.p) if I'm wrong he still should be stronger after top arcs
nah i full heartedly believe that gogeta ssj could have beaten broly "LSSJ" the fusion technique is also supposed to make gogeta stronger than the fp of both in base or sum like that i forgot
It depends really. Just without multipliers to make it non controversial, it should be goku vs a goku and vegeta. I guess it's hard to tell who would win between the two
@@helovicus nope, gogeta is stronger because is the multiplyer between goku epand vegeta power level+ a rivality boost+ a fusion boost
@@9xFalse nah bro, rewacht the fight, the second broly becomes lssj a punch from gogeta is like nothing, in fact he changes in to blue after taking a punch beacause he knows he cant win in that state, also broly have is super durable, even when gogeta turned blue he had to use a lot of attack and energetic wave to break broly defense (sorry for bad english)
No, Gamma 1 & 2 are not even close to T.O.P. Jiren AT ALL, neither in anime or manga, Toriyama let clear that Orange Piccoro=Normal Super Saiyan Blue
And Gamma 2 couldn’t even make Orange Piccolo flinch, T.O.P. Jiren was and is still far superior than a SSB, Jiren would just slap both of them and take them out without any real effort
Ok, I respect this
I'll just accept it, orange Picolo going from nothing to SSB is a crazy ass boost, I'll just enjoy the fighting scenes✋🏻💀
Definitely
Nope toryiama confirmed piccolo is on par with current Goku and Vegeta and the gammas scale to piccolo meaning they beat mui easily and broly movie gogeta and broly and also moro arc Goku 💀y'all just can't accept anything
@@e33bo1 Reading comprehension had abandoned you
Toriyama confirmed that Orange Piccolo was on current SSB Goku and Vegeta
This is also proved by the fact that Orange piccolo couldn’t even cause damage to Cell Max while Beast Gohan proved to be completing superior to Cell Max, and Beast Gohan fought MUI EQUALLY, so as a resume
MUI goku = Beast Gohan > Cell Max >>> Orange Piccolo >>> Gammas
Is not that hard ya know?
Gemma 1-2 are stated to be as strong as blue so no they aren’t stronger than jiren and piccolo can’t read god ki so he’d be talking around base or at least ss3
Ok, I can see what you mean, but here's my opinion.
1. I'm not 100% sure if gammas are stated to be equal to super saiyan blue, so that may be a personal opinion.
2. Even if Piccolo can't read God ki he's still capable of reading the opponents ki which usually isn't God ki (Ex., Moro, Granaloh, and Broly). In order for a fight to even be close, both fighters have to be similar to each other. So if someone like moro put up a fight against blue goku, then they are relatively close, and moro's ki can be sensed by Piccolo.
To be clear, I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to show a different perspective
@@JFAMERICA okay but he can’t read gokus ki and the Gemma’s don’t have ki so he can’t state anything so you’re saying the Gemma’s are stronger than the gods?
@spsfitnessstrudley7718 here's the thing, I know it's stated that Jiren is stronger than beerus. However this isn't true since in later arcs he says him fighting wouldn't be fair since he'd win easily. Even if Gammas are stronger than Jiren, they are nowhere near the level of the Gods
@@JFAMERICA it’s stated he’s stronger than his god not berrus the Gemma’s are in no way stronger than jiren evening thinking they could be us insane
@spsfitnessstrudley7718 ok, I respect that. But in the anime, it's implied that beerus is weaker than Jiren. However, that's not the case in the manga, I apologize.
We've not seen jiren after TOP he definitely became stronger. You can atleast say he's as strong as goku
If TOP 2 happens jiren isnt gonna be the main antagonist anymore you guys remember those 4 universes with high mortal power levels? They're gonna bring them too and many more powerful asf people's in my opinion jiren will be as strong as Goku they may help each other but at last Goku and vegeta gonna get a big powerup and win
You just described the plot of every arc
You know what would have been cool? If kaioken 3x was 3 times the power of 2x and 4x was 4 times the power of 3x (etc.)
This would be a cool concept. It would work similar to the super saiyan forms. However, it would cost goku more energy than it already does
saying that the z fighters each being able to, hypothetically, win in a 1v1 vs raditz is crazy, is just crazy. cause it took place one year before the saiyan saga and they all had time to train so they obviously got stronger, it's not something to be agreed on or not, it's a fact. ye it took both piccolo and goku to take down raditz but that's literally before everything
I got what you're saying, but for like those guys to have a "power level" of maybe 100 or 200, and then go to over 1,000 seems funny to me. However, I do agree with you, and I think they deserve this
I think people forget that the androids in dbz and dbs aint no regular androids. They’re strong because they utilize ki. Not saying db scaling is perfection. I mean just look at the androids they had in og db, they were ‘weak’ because they had no ki control.
I mean to my knowledge, androids can't use ki or sense it, but thanks for telling me. I will look into this to see what's correct
@@JFAMERICA Its actually the opposite, feel free to look into and it but androids have an infinite capacity for ki (perpetual energy modules is what they call them) and since they aren’t living beings their ki cant be sensed.
@@JFAMERICA funny thing is, its really the opposite. Androids (The perpetual energy model’s: 16, 17 and 18) actually have infinite ki/ their ki capacity is always at 100%. And since they aren’t technically living beings their ki cant be sensed by living beings. I would definitely look into it but tbh you’re doing better than most db fans (some don’t actually watch the show)
And also the gammas arent even suppressed ssj broly level so like hell their beating Jiren especially not current jiren.
@RandomName-xx9ls thanks for telling me about the misconception
5k-8k wasnt a comparison from base-power up
they were both base form its just he was suppressed while in 5,000
My fault that's what I meant
so dumb to me that earth science solos the dragonball verse. So some chump on earth is able to make robots stringer than the GODS? And xeno nor the angels or GODS of destruction see earth as a massive threat? BS
It's actually crazy, so I guess science solos your favorite verse
i think dragonballs powerlevels would be fine if the characters had set limits, goku should have peaked when he beat freeza
I'd like for the powerlevels to keep increasing but slowly. Make the villains not stronger but have certain gimmicks or powers that the protagonist has to find a way to counter. Sort of like in Mashle (great show btw)
Honestly pretty based of you to reply every comment with upmost respect.
The first person to notice it probably. I do it because it's fun, and at the end of the day, I can't have an audience if I don't interact with them. Have a great day :)
6:27
When looking at this you also have to understands saibamen are newborn monsters somtimes witj a . Fear of death
They aren’t exactly fighters
And lack the tools required to be anywhere near as strong as raditz
Just using simple power levels, they are similar. However, with combat experience and battle iq, raditz could easily win most likely. Don't take this too seriously since the video is just for entertainment, and I'm not the author of Dragon Ball