Ampisound Hes got great power and speed but it seems to be the same technique as any other good tracuer. Is there something in particular you are looking for? If you are wondering if I analysed people with bigger jumps etc. I worked a little with Alexander Zyulev and analyzed his movements. He is about as powerful as it gets with kongs and the same science applies.
I'd like to know if the curve changes for toby or Pip Andersen in paticular. The one in the above example is maybe a third of the size of the ones theyre doing.
Ampisound The curves are are all the same, just larger. That's actually a rule of physics (so long as wind resistance isn't too much.) Also check out Zyulevs videos, his kongs are much bigger then Segar. There is a comment on my page which talks about this, but so you understand the clips in the video are used for easy illustration. Even Matt's kongs get much bigger than these and I analyze many more athletes then the featured one in any video. I analyzed guys from Storm Freerun, Jenkins, Doyle, etc. All of the info in the video is accurate to all of them and the concept of the kong.
Ampisound Problem is you linked his personal youtube which most of his videos on their are very old and don't show him doing large kongs. I did eventually find his bigger ones which were as big or bigger then Zyulev (who has a 12 foot cat pass- I can't seem to find the video I saw of Zyulev doing a 12-13 foot double on concrete). Also not to diminish his achievement but Guinness probably did it in a padded gym which I am sure you know adds a lot of distance and they no longer base the record on who is the best but instead who is the best that goes on their reality TV show. (He might still be the best but take Guinness with a grain of salt) e.g. Myself and three people (that I know of) have broken the wall run record.
why do kongs have such a long distance? a good runner can get 2-3 times the distance with a kong than with a precision jump.. how come? i assume the hands aren't adding a lot of energy to the equation..
Oren Matar Really solid question. It is true that runners skilled with kongs may be able to improve their distance with a kong. There are a lot of factors that lead to this but most of them effect one key component- take off angle. The arm strength being added to the jump does play a small roll, but much more so its the angle of the jump allowed. At a running jump the human body is limited to a fairly low angle of take off for several reasons. (I think/hope I mentioned them in one of the other videos, if not I will later) With the kong however, the contact with the wall helps to mitigate many of these flaws allowing for a higher/more efficient takeoff angle and as a result a longer parabolic flight. (tell me if I answered your question well enough) Thanks much.
ParkourScience it does sort of make sense to me, but don't you take off at an about 45 degree angle in a precision jump, which is more or less the ideal?
Oren Matar Yep, but the precision jump doesn't have the advantage of all that speed and momentum from the run up. The running jump lacks the ideal jump angle, the precision jump lacks the speed and momentum, but the kong vault can potentially have both (to an extent).
ParkourScience ok cool. i think i understand this intuitively, but just to get a clear formal explanation: how come we can't jump at the ideal angle in a running jump? in on of your videos you say it's because the legs can't match the speed we have for power upwards. what do our legs do in a kong that gives them enough power to push us upwards to a 45 degree angle?
Oren Matar There are two reasons behind this. When running and jumping it is pretty important that your feet remain under you for landing so offsetting your center of mass further than we already do, with levering and leg work, isn't really an option because the rotation would be impossible to counter in mid-air. So you would land on your face and at a full run. Nothing good can come of that. The placement of the hands in the kong counters that rotation which allows for a greater take off angle. Also as mentioned in the other video we are limited by leg strength and speed. if we are running 15mph a perfect angle would require that our legs be strong and fast enough to fire our body upward at 15mph. which isn't possible (and if it was we could probably then run over 30 mph and the problem still exists just on a different scale) Side note: the first reason is why front flips are not allowed in Olympic long jumping. By doing a front flip you CAN offset your jump angle for at least a bit better of a takeoff angle and still rotate all the way through to get back to your feet, and as such a good front flip can cover more distance than a running jump.
What software are you using to track the trajectories? Does it happen automatically or do you tell it where the knee/hip/center of gravity/... is located in each (key)frame?
naise1 I used to use "video point" (I think that can be seen in earlier videos.) This one is "Tracker" it's an open source physics software. It is not automatic. Each point of the body has to be manually tracked (because I don't have thousands of dollars to blow on motion capture) I use a steady cam and track 14 points per frame using algorithms to calculate and place center of mass automatically and bounce detection/reduction (and other ad hoc applications). I also calibrate each video using basic physics constants. On average that requires the manual placement and adjustment of about 3000 data points per analyzed clip and I analyze at least 10-20 distinct clips per video produced (with the software - and maybe double that without to look for anomalies) So I look at about 40 videos total and manually place about 45,000 data points before doing the physics analysis.
Craig Schubert Thanks... and Nope i can't. :P I was hoping no one would ask that. So... it's an estimation based on several intertwining factors in each kong type. The scale at the bottom is a bit unique, the origin point is actually +/- .5m, that is to say it becomes incredibly inefficient for any kong to take off from or land within half a meter from the wall so I cut out the asymptotes that would exist in the center and spliced it together. Basically in the negative direction you have distance from where you are going to take off, to where you are going to place your hands, and in the positive scale, you have distance to your landing point from your first hand placement. Based on power loss points and extremes for each kong I drew an estimation which shows pretty roughly that the various kongs have differing uses and ranges of efficiency. But the graph is admittedly not based on hard number but soft general efficiency concepts in the techniques and parabolic extremes. Thus the title. Does that answer your question?
ParkourScience Hmm, I think I'm getting there... So the point at which the Dive-K and K-pre intersect is pretty much the midpoint of the graph and prepresents -.5m (taking off 50cm before the point of first hand contact) and also +.5m (landing 50cm after first hand placement). So Dive-kong maximum efficiency is taking off about 1m before the point your hands will make contact? And less efficient the further past 50 from hand-contact you land? Kong-pre is about max efficiency taking off 50cm before and landing about 1.5m past hand contact? (I'm assuming this is landing level with the hand placement? Does landing higher or lower affect this much?) Double-kong... I'm assuming the plateau is showing relatively even efficiency of how far between hand-placements - from about 1.5-2.5m. From the other graphs I would have thought the right hand (positive) side showed landing distance from hands so not sure if double-kong considers the 2nd hand placement as 'landing' or if the hand placement is about 50cm before the landing.) Yeah, guess all up I don't really understand what the graph is showing. It does seem to show different uses/efficiencies in the techniques but I struggle to make out much beyond that. Sorry. Generally as well I wonder how much speed and vault height (maybe vault height:traceur height) affects things... Cheers again for sharing your findings - I love it! :-)
Craig Schubert Actually you are getting it quite well. (especially despite my poor explanation) To touch on your points- Yes landing height has an effect on kong pre and this tries to keep it simple with as you said a level landing to hand placement. (the graph I used on precision distance in the other video can probably be used for height correction here.) With the double kong, I did in fact use the second hand placement to stand in for the "landing." You have pretty much picked up everything the graph is meant to show. (which is more than I expected anyone to get out of it.) It honestly wasn't meant to be all that informative just conceptual. Speed and vault height would change the graph only in that it would stretch on the x-axis. It would basically just mean a larger range of efficiency for each technique. Thanks again.
Cesar Montesinos Thanks, I was originally trying to stick to pure parkour before moving later to freerunning (that being said I have shown using physics that a front flip can be parkour.) I may make an all flip video at some point in the future, couldn't tell you when.
If Pk means saving obstacles guess Side flip is closer to Pk. Even Wall spin. Front/back flips, b-twist, aerials... are more acrobats. Looking forward to your PkScience vids... even though have to wait.; )
+Timothy Randall Interesting claim, would you mind sending me a video? That aside, Swinging of the arms in this kind of motion and jumps in general is well established in bio-mechanics (as well as my research) as necessary for maximum efficiency.
Do you have any tips about how to judge what exactly to do before you reach an obstacle from a parkour run if you're not prepared for this particular obstacle? In other words how to judge exactly what to do on the move.
Bill Gates Great question. The answer is pretty complex though. I am hoping to do climb ups next followed by a video on efficiency which will cover your question.
Please do this analysis for the technique of Toby Segar
Ampisound Hes got great power and speed but it seems to be the same technique as any other good tracuer. Is there something in particular you are looking for? If you are wondering if I analysed people with bigger jumps etc. I worked a little with Alexander Zyulev and analyzed his movements. He is about as powerful as it gets with kongs and the same science applies.
I'd like to know if the curve changes for toby or Pip Andersen in paticular. The one in the above example is maybe a third of the size of the ones theyre doing.
Ampisound The curves are are all the same, just larger. That's actually a rule of physics (so long as wind resistance isn't too much.) Also check out Zyulevs videos, his kongs are much bigger then Segar. There is a comment on my page which talks about this, but so you understand the clips in the video are used for easy illustration. Even Matt's kongs get much bigger than these and I analyze many more athletes then the featured one in any video. I analyzed guys from Storm Freerun, Jenkins, Doyle, etc. All of the info in the video is accurate to all of them and the concept of the kong.
All good, but please dont say Zyulevs are 'much bigger' .Toby literally has the world record so dont be silly.
Ampisound Problem is you linked his personal youtube which most of his videos on their are very old and don't show him doing large kongs. I did eventually find his bigger ones which were as big or bigger then Zyulev (who has a 12 foot cat pass- I can't seem to find the video I saw of Zyulev doing a 12-13 foot double on concrete). Also not to diminish his achievement but Guinness probably did it in a padded gym which I am sure you know adds a lot of distance and they no longer base the record on who is the best but instead who is the best that goes on their reality TV show. (He might still be the best but take Guinness with a grain of salt) e.g. Myself and three people (that I know of) have broken the wall run record.
Awesome! Happy you started making these video's again! I look forward to other video's. Will you be doing flips in the future to?
a long time coming! great! love to see more vids
Awesome work, these are always so interesting to watch :)
nice, videos and very educational. They helped me a lot with my training. When will be the next video ?
Thanks, I have taken a long break but I am considering making a new one this summer but unsure at the moment.
ok. thanks for the information i realy appreciate it
+ParkourScience please do
Please please don't stop
I am working with a gym to start work again, can't give an exact date but working on it.
why do kongs have such a long distance? a good runner can get 2-3 times the distance with a kong than with a precision jump.. how come? i assume the hands aren't adding a lot of energy to the equation..
Oren Matar Really solid question. It is true that runners skilled with kongs may be able to improve their distance with a kong. There are a lot of factors that lead to this but most of them effect one key component- take off angle. The arm strength being added to the jump does play a small roll, but much more so its the angle of the jump allowed. At a running jump the human body is limited to a fairly low angle of take off for several reasons. (I think/hope I mentioned them in one of the other videos, if not I will later) With the kong however, the contact with the wall helps to mitigate many of these flaws allowing for a higher/more efficient takeoff angle and as a result a longer parabolic flight. (tell me if I answered your question well enough) Thanks much.
ParkourScience it does sort of make sense to me, but don't you take off at an about 45 degree angle in a precision jump, which is more or less the ideal?
Oren Matar Yep, but the precision jump doesn't have the advantage of all that speed and momentum from the run up. The running jump lacks the ideal jump angle, the precision jump lacks the speed and momentum, but the kong vault can potentially have both (to an extent).
ParkourScience ok cool. i think i understand this intuitively, but just to get a clear formal explanation: how come we can't jump at the ideal angle in a running jump? in on of your videos you say it's because the legs can't match the speed we have for power upwards. what do our legs do in a kong that gives them enough power to push us upwards to a 45 degree angle?
Oren Matar There are two reasons behind this. When running and jumping it is pretty important that your feet remain under you for landing so offsetting your center of mass further than we already do, with levering and leg work, isn't really an option because the rotation would be impossible to counter in mid-air. So you would land on your face and at a full run. Nothing good can come of that. The placement of the hands in the kong counters that rotation which allows for a greater take off angle. Also as mentioned in the other video we are limited by leg strength and speed. if we are running 15mph a perfect angle would require that our legs be strong and fast enough to fire our body upward at 15mph. which isn't possible (and if it was we could probably then run over 30 mph and the problem still exists just on a different scale) Side note: the first reason is why front flips are not allowed in Olympic long jumping. By doing a front flip you CAN offset your jump angle for at least a bit better of a takeoff angle and still rotate all the way through to get back to your feet, and as such a good front flip can cover more distance than a running jump.
First !! Haha great To see you back !! Congratulations for the new home
These vids are great! Thanks!
Nice video man :) But what about the Kash? Isn't it also another Kong variant?
Neo Navras Good point, the structure would make it a variant of the kong pre. (and some people use the Kash as a variant of the monkey vault)
Those velocities are calculated from center of mass?
+Acrobatic Tutorial For the most part yes, as well as rotational... The center of mass is calculated from weighted limb displacement as well.
What software are you using to track the trajectories? Does it happen automatically or do you tell it where the knee/hip/center of gravity/... is located in each (key)frame?
naise1 I used to use "video point" (I think that can be seen in earlier videos.) This one is "Tracker" it's an open source physics software. It is not automatic. Each point of the body has to be manually tracked (because I don't have thousands of dollars to blow on motion capture) I use a steady cam and track 14 points per frame using algorithms to calculate and place center of mass automatically and bounce detection/reduction (and other ad hoc applications). I also calibrate each video using basic physics constants. On average that requires the manual placement and adjustment of about 3000 data points per analyzed clip and I analyze at least 10-20 distinct clips per video produced (with the software - and maybe double that without to look for anomalies) So I look at about 40 videos total and manually place about 45,000 data points before doing the physics analysis.
Wonderful
Love the video!
Can you explain the graph at 6:35 a bit more please? :-)
Craig Schubert Thanks... and Nope i can't. :P I was hoping no one would ask that. So... it's an estimation based on several intertwining factors in each kong type. The scale at the bottom is a bit unique, the origin point is actually +/- .5m, that is to say it becomes incredibly inefficient for any kong to take off from or land within half a meter from the wall so I cut out the asymptotes that would exist in the center and spliced it together. Basically in the negative direction you have distance from where you are going to take off, to where you are going to place your hands, and in the positive scale, you have distance to your landing point from your first hand placement. Based on power loss points and extremes for each kong I drew an estimation which shows pretty roughly that the various kongs have differing uses and ranges of efficiency. But the graph is admittedly not based on hard number but soft general efficiency concepts in the techniques and parabolic extremes. Thus the title. Does that answer your question?
ParkourScience
Hmm, I think I'm getting there...
So the point at which the Dive-K and K-pre intersect is pretty much the midpoint of the graph and prepresents -.5m (taking off 50cm before the point of first hand contact) and also +.5m (landing 50cm after first hand placement).
So Dive-kong maximum efficiency is taking off about 1m before the point your hands will make contact? And less efficient the further past 50 from hand-contact you land?
Kong-pre is about max efficiency taking off 50cm before and landing about 1.5m past hand contact? (I'm assuming this is landing level with the hand placement? Does landing higher or lower affect this much?)
Double-kong... I'm assuming the plateau is showing relatively even efficiency of how far between hand-placements - from about 1.5-2.5m. From the other graphs I would have thought the right hand (positive) side showed landing distance from hands so not sure if double-kong considers the 2nd hand placement as 'landing' or if the hand placement is about 50cm before the landing.)
Yeah, guess all up I don't really understand what the graph is showing. It does seem to show different uses/efficiencies in the techniques but I struggle to make out much beyond that. Sorry.
Generally as well I wonder how much speed and vault height (maybe vault height:traceur height) affects things...
Cheers again for sharing your findings - I love it! :-)
Craig Schubert Actually you are getting it quite well. (especially despite my poor explanation) To touch on your points- Yes landing height has an effect on kong pre and this tries to keep it simple with as you said a level landing to hand placement. (the graph I used on precision distance in the other video can probably be used for height correction here.) With the double kong, I did in fact use the second hand placement to stand in for the "landing." You have pretty much picked up everything the graph is meant to show. (which is more than I expected anyone to get out of it.) It honestly wasn't meant to be all that informative just conceptual. Speed and vault height would change the graph only in that it would stretch on the x-axis. It would basically just mean a larger range of efficiency for each technique. Thanks again.
this is great!!!
You're nice couple, seen all your vids but wonder when your side/front/back flip dissection is coming.
LotsOfThanks
Cesar Montesinos Thanks, I was originally trying to stick to pure parkour before moving later to freerunning (that being said I have shown using physics that a front flip can be parkour.) I may make an all flip video at some point in the future, couldn't tell you when.
If Pk means saving obstacles guess Side flip is closer to Pk. Even Wall spin.
Front/back flips, b-twist, aerials... are more acrobats.
Looking forward to your PkScience vids... even though have to wait.; )
You don't need to swing your arms at all. I dive kong way over my body length with out swinging my arms. Its just diving you don't need to swing.
+Timothy Randall Interesting claim, would you mind sending me a video? That aside, Swinging of the arms in this kind of motion and jumps in general is well established in bio-mechanics (as well as my research) as necessary for maximum efficiency.
Do you have any tips about how to judge what exactly to do before you reach an obstacle from a parkour run if you're not prepared for this particular obstacle? In other words how to judge exactly what to do on the move.
Bill Gates Great question. The answer is pretty complex though. I am hoping to do climb ups next followed by a video on efficiency which will cover your question.
I like Double kong vault
ParkourScience If you don't mind telling, how old are you? The guy in the video looks like he's in his early 20s and you sound a bit older.
Uzair Muhammad I'm 29, he's 25ish ... I don't know why I sound old, never heard that before :P
ParkourScience Nah if your 29 you sound just about right. The guy in the video looks like he'd sound younger that's all. Btw new subscriber