What I saw in the inquiry was POL "managers" and investigators, uneducated people who probably joined the Post Office after leaving school at 15. Then worked their way up to management positions of power. By always following the corporate line. People who knew that the Post Office was the only place where they could get a job with the same status and salary. Who banded together with others within the POL. To support each other, and present a united front. As individually they were all terrified of being "found out", and ending up on the next redundancy list. So making sure that they were never out of step with the POL Group Think.
Exactly right, we are seeing the same sort of mentality in the UK police & fire service. A reluctance to admit there is a problem and an inability to change the system that they have worked in for so long & that the senior managers have prospered in. I suppose it must be very difficult to admit for any manager that knowingly or unknowingly they are part of the systemic problem. Now that's psychology!!
I listened many times to "intelligent" staff moaning and bitching about how bad management decisions were. Who would then say that it "wasn't their place" to say anything to the managers. Some of them would even brown nose the managers and grass up the "disruptive" staff. So they could beat them to a promotion. @@Sean006
As one of the original 555 Post Masters actually involved in this absolute shit show, i would like to personally thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful take on the scandal. It hasn't been easy to remain objective abut this fiasco but pieces like yours are highly appreciated. Well done ! And ....... No i have not yet received my full and final settlement but my claim has only just last week been lodged and i remain hopeful that it will be dealt with within the next month or so and i can finally close this nightmare of a story and move on with the rest of my life..... I cant wait for the day when the words "Post Office" aren't my first and last thoughts of any given day.
It might sound a little flippant, but I wonder if they might erect a statue to commemorate the injustice done to post masters and remind us into the future....right next to Churchill on Parliament square would be my suggestion (a two fingered salute & a plaque below saying "What took you so bloody long?"!)
Kathy, so sorry for my delayed reply. Just wanted to say thanks for your comment and your kind words. I can't imagine how tough it's been for you over the years and how harrowing the past few months has been now that it's back on the front pages. I hope you get justice soon. You have been part of the worst miscarriage of justice in UK history. Your pain and hurt and courage will be a marker in history that I am sure will make those corporate bastards think twice before they try doing anything like this ever again. And it uncovers the incompetence and self interests that sits at the heart of many of our systems of governance and authority. Thanks for being part of a historical moment that has given the system a big shake up :) Kind thoughts and in solidarity, p
Thanks so much for your comment Paul, and thanks again for your thoughtful and understanding post. I'm nearly out the other end of this nightmare as my compensation payment is due through TOMORROW ! I'm still engaging daily with the inquiry as we're entering the last stages in the inquiry and testimony of the P O LTD "generals"(Paula Vennells and cohorts) will be testifying within the ensuing few months. Hopefully for the first time in UK history these corporate psychopaths will be held to account. Xx
I don't know about anyone else, but I am astonished that so many, very decent ppl, have been trapped in this nightmare for so long. The difference between SPMS & POL security employees, Board & executives, is startling in its magnitude. I hope you get full restitution. Their apologies will mean very little, I'm sure..
An aspect of the inquiry I found interesting was the amount of legal bods who have been dragged to the witness table and cross examined. They all expected to be given an easy ride by Beers and co and seemed to be taken aback when this wasn't happening. A good example was Singh when he used "we" a couple of times in his answer as thought he and Beers were sort of mates and should behave in certain manner towards each other by being given an easy ride. The other one taken aback was I think called, Tatford, chubby with blonde, hair he seemed really miffed that he was in the spot where criminals are usually seated and being thoroughly grilled by a KC.
Dr Paul, I’ve found your videos really informative and enlightening. Everything you highlighted about POL as an institution and then a Corporate applies to most businesses these days in the way they operate. I admire the composure of the victims of this scandal and wish them all well. A great learning discussion point that shows many perspectives and ways of seeing. You students are very lucky to have such an insightful, objective pedagog. I look forward to watching other videos. All the best 😃👍
Thanks so much. That's lovely of you to say. Yes, the composure of the victims has been impressive. I love how Jo Hamilton sits at the front and says nothing, but each one of the gets skewered by her presence :) p
@@PaulDuckett Sometimes silence is more powerful than words. I absolutely agree on your point about ‘presence’. The word that comes to mind is ‘gravitas’. She held her space.
Having delved into genealogy for over 30 years it has become apparent to me that the vast majority of people are completely disconnected from the history of their own family, never mind the history of any organisation they might work for or belong to. My conclusion from seven decades of experience is that the people who are driving most organisations are mostly concentrating on maintaining and/or improving THEIR OWN PROSPECTS. This requires following orders that they know to be FAULTY, using systems that they know to be NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE and supporting people they know to be INCOMPETENT. Bosses choose employees, including their own replacements, on the basis that those individual's performances won't throw their own abilities or performance into stark relief. Thus, there is a trend towards sameness, yesmen and mediocrity, which is increasingly reflected in government, civil service and big business.
Thank you for this, I just watched all four parts, plus your other videos about the inquiry. I'm not a student, nor am I a resident of the UK but I have become interested in the PO scandal (prior to discovering your channel). I really enjoy and value your thoughtfulness and measured responses. Cheers!
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback. I'm no longer in the UK so watching all of this from a far. It must be so much more painful for folk living there, I imagine. p
Why did it take so long for the public to feel 'moral anger' at what happened to the sub-postmasters (and for the UK government to then take decisive action to right the wrongs)?....Oh, I forgot. It took a TV programme to ignite the fire in our bellies. Which says an awful lot about the pychology of the grest British public (or about where they get their information). The really scary thing is that it was a drama....and open to the subtle influence of the editing process & unconscious bias of director, producers, writers, etc. Scary!
@sean006 : in laymans terms (the horizon issue) was kicked into the long grass from the top down including the Goverment by 2 decades + , people died of age they (those involved from the top down ) hoped it would all blow away with time' it almost did ..........
Good points Sean. I do wonder if it gives us a sign of how much morality has been corroded over the years and how much we've been tricked by all the smokes and mirrors that have been put up to stop us seeing what's really happening to people. How dare they do that to our post offices and our postmasters. And how dare us not have paid attention long enough and how dare us not to have gotten angry enough to have put a stop to it all well before now.
@@PaulDuckett The calculation by the PO decision makers probably would have been to keep the issue low profile. The PO was generally a trusted organisation and I suspect most of the public assumed that the subpostmasters were majority guilty. It took a TV programme to make the public focus on this issue and force them to make a judgement, suddenly the subpostmasters were portrayed as innocent, victims of a corrupt system. The great British ethos of fair play & playing by the rules kicked in and something had to be done. The scary thing is that the legal system 'almost' failed them, Parliament was shown to be fairly toothless and governments (of all hues) just weren't interested. Cannot blame the public. We have a lot of things to think about. I find myself reading this forum whilst listening to a TH-cam video and I cannot focus on both at the same time (I assume it is how the brain works....multitasking is a fantasy). Personally I cannot juggle too many balls at one time. I choose which battles to fight and other issues I take a simplistic view on (usually based on my personal/political views). I assumed that the subpostmasters were majority guilty because I trusted the PO and Fujitsu to run a professional organisation with checks & balances....turns out I was wrong and the wrong people ended up in jail. Are there no honest people left in big business any more, will they do anything for a bonus & a good pension?....obviously a big YES in this case. Even Paula Vennels - who is a 'apparently' an Anglican priest failed the moral test. We all make choices....the psychology of choice?!
@@Sean006 Me too. Honestly, I didn't really understand, hadn't actually looked into it, and put too much trust in the legal side. I'd just wrongly trusted that full investigations had happened so the sub postmasters must have been guilty! Being British has also shaped my, and probably many peoples thinking, that pride in our ancient legal history and in our countries history makes us hoodwinked and deluded 😮
I'm a bit late in watching this series but the way you are presenting your take on this is so interesting, and useful. I wish I new this 40 years ago! It explains such a lot. It also explains why my Councillors are blindly going along with things without any understanding and why the council leader is vilifying me (as an independent and critical thinking resident) , because he knows I'm damn right! Bad things happen when good people do nothing!
Thanks so much Linda, and great final sentence to your post. Absolutely! And, sorry for taking so long to respond. I have got way more comments than I had anticipated on my videos so I'm still working my way through them.
I appreciate you articulating what rubbed me the wrong way with that exchange about which individuals to blame as it felt like the presenters were really missing the point of it all and minimising the very important journalistic work that had been done by suggesting that she was "too forgiving" of individuals
A thought provoking analysis. One day they may find the defects that they have missed so far. The defect that is still causing POL accounting discrepancies. I look foreard to watching your other videos. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
I made it through all 4. 👍 I can now see better that the POL needs to be retaught is actual job. They had too many ‘we’ve always done it this way’ moments. It reinforces my thought that managers get in the way of workers doing their best job. It was the worst case of protecting themselves, not their true mission: the mail, the community, the employees.
Yay, thanks so much for making it through all 4. It was a bit of a marathon. Yep, managers often get in the way ... they think they know better but rarely do.
Thank you Professor for a very clear and insightful analysis of one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history - justice for all subpostmasters and jail for all perpetrators 👍
Years ago I read a book about the war against the Japanese in Burma. The phrase that I remember was "I had the SOB in my sights, nobody would have known it wasn't a sniper"! The soldier was referring to a staff officer who interpreted his General's wishes in a particularly inappropriate manner. The POL situation is the same and reflects the sycophantic attitude of those inadequate people who are in positions that are far above their abilities!
I worked for the Post Office Security and Investigation Service on aviation security.The investigators were proud of always getting a conviction and seemed to regard themselves as the cream.Posties referred to them as the "Gestapo".Your analysis was illuminating Dr.
At 50 seconds - the false assumptions were not just POL belief of incompetence or wrong doing by sub postmasters, but ALSO the infallibility of the great Horizon system and its output reports.
I look at this from my own experience like every one else. I went to join my first Merchant Navy ship at 17 to train to be a Deck Officer with a traditional Liner Cargo Ship Company. I was very well trained, at twenty still a Cadet I learned you had to be able to justify your actions, as perhaps one day I maybe standing in the front the bench defending my freedom. I failed to see anyone at the Post Office actually being capable of doing that, ignorance of the actual situation is not a defense. That is incompetence.
The other governemnt agency that was tasked with policing before the creation of an actual police force was HM Customs and Excise. Their remit, apart from collecting certain taxes and duties etc was to actually stop, arrest and capture smugglers and any other persons involved in contraband or tax/duties evasion. They were given sweeping powers to be able to do this. In more recent years, HM Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise were merged to form HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). Part of the reasoning behind this merger was to ensure that the Inland Revenue acquired the already pre-existing powers already held by HM Customs and Excise. Britain is a country with an awful lot of legacy legislation which is still in use - some dating back over 1,000 years.
@@cassandratq9301 HMRC has lots of problems and some of its approaches to pursuing tax debts bears a similarity to how POL pursued the Sub Postmasters. However, there hasn’t been a scandal as such - or at least, not yet.
Dr Paul, thanks for your insight on this. I'm not sure the Inquiry will look at the deeper organisational and psychological drivers in all this, but I hope they do. It goes to show how big those ivory towers we habitually build, and how difficult they are to assail sometimes. What happened to good old-fashioned integrity? Regards
Very interesting to hear the historical background of the POL. This could be a very important part of an explanation of what has 😢happened. But but you can't "blame" everybody within Fujitsu that they kept Horizon bugs and issues under the rug: from what I've heard mr Jenkins was sincerely about telling the truth and about fixing issues which was to him just a obvious process of bridging on a large new it system online.
With all the well paid intelligent individuals (lawyers, judges etc) involved in this fiasco did not one of them ask 1. "where is the stolen money" or 2. "what evidence was established to indicate that it used to finance a lavish lifestyle" The only evidence prosecutors had was the computer system which should have been used to investigate points 1&2
Those prosecuters should lose their law licenses for violating their duty to the court. They prosecuted people usibg NO real evidence - and withheld exculpatory evidence!
The best example of this is grilling of David Teale in the case of Qouram the local postmaster in North Uist. The fiscal Teale was asked where the £10k ended up. The subpm made up an answer to avoid going to jail and Teale accepted this answer without ever checking if the money was in the 2 bank accounts.
Proseutors did look for the ''missing money' on occasions, did you not watch the inquiry, or most of it? They tried to look into bank accounts, etc. The problem is it is not always easy to access these. Further just because someone does not appear to have spent 'extra money' does not mean they do not have it somewhere.
@@miketomlin6040 The fact that there was no collaborative evidence of "missing money" or evidence of lavish lifestyles maybe should have raised red flags to maybe investigate the computer system that is indicating shortfalls in cash. Did the prosecuters believe that the SPMs had become criminal masterminds & had found a way to steal money without leaving any evidence to show where it went.
The culmination of a very helpful series. Thank you. Only one observation, is it really the case that the post office investigations branch is the oldest investigations branch in the world? As one challenge, UK military police organisations such as the RMP claim lineage back to the 13th century. Even the MoD police claim antecedents in the 17th century?
paul thank you for your insight i am not a UK resident but of the US . as a atudent in AU i worked holiday jobs at the AU PO and we took the civil service oath and they made us very aware and afraid about postal inspectors. Until you pointed it out i did not realise they had no special powers ,just the powers in law available to any investigator. small point in relation to this massive and arrogant miscarriage of justice The lessons are global.
Thanks so much for your post. Yes, these issues are global as you say. And, sorry about my terribly late response - I am still catching up with all the comments.
Eg Paul, today if you submit a notification of postal theft/ loss to US Postal Service inspectors, even of a tracked item, you likely wont even get an acknowledgement, in my repeated experience. Individual breaches are apparently just too paltry to merit investigation by the so called inspectors. They have a self defined higher calling, and its in line with the chief DeJoy's priorities, who apparently is unsackable. o me miserum!
I liked his proposal that PO prosecutors and criminal investigators were acting as if the CP&I Act 1996 didn’t exist. Except that prosecutions in Northern Ireland and Scotland were ALL carried out effectively by the state’s prosecution services in each jurisdiction & where parallel legislation to the CP&IA in England and Wales was also enacted. It doesn’t seem to have protected PO agents from prosecution, as rules on disclosure were equally ignored. Indeed it looks as if proportionately more were prosecuted in Scotland, as there were apparently over 100 cases out of about 900, even though less than 8% of the population lives there. The Crown Office has been very reluctant to admit mistakes and a Senior Scottish lawyer , Roddy Dunlop, Dean of the Faculty(of advocates), has gone as far as criticising the use of legislation to exonerate those convicted in Scotland, arguing that all those wrongfully convicted should have to fight their cases through expensive appeal court cases (with lots of cash for Roddy’s fellow advocates). Why? In Roddy’s view, Perish the thought that one actually guilty post master/mistress should be wrongfully acquitted and compensated.
Thank you for this very enjoyable and thoughtful video. Playing the amateur psychologist: in periodically looking up and to the left are you lying or just consulting your notes?
Ahhhh .... depends where your notes are :) My colleagues has looked into the thing about eye gaze and lying (Dr Rebecca Wilcoxson - theconversation.com/profiles/rebecca-wilcoxson-1418734). She's really smart and her work has figured out that most of what psycholgy has said about the detection of lies is, ironically, a lie. So, there are no simple tests to detect lying ... actually no sophisticated ones either. The trick to telling if someone is lying is knowing their character and corroborating their story, but also doing what folk like Mr Beer is good at - catching folk off guard :) p
Ahhhh .... depends where your notes are :) My colleagues has looked into the thing about eye gaze and lying (Dr Rebecca Wilcoxson - theconversation.com/profiles/rebecca-wilcoxson-1418734). She's really smart and her work has figured out that most of what psycholgy has said about the detection of lies is, ironically, a lie. So, there are no simple tests to detect lying ... actually no sophisticated ones either. The trick to telling if someone is lying is knowing their character and corroborating their story, but also doing what folk like Mr Beer is good at - catching folk off guard :) p
@@PaulDuckett Thank you for this constructive reply to my slightly mischievous question. I will follow up the link you kindly provided. I agree that Mr Beer is a formidable cross examiner; the inquiry format seems not to allow for re-examination, however, and this leaves the chairman to find the right balance (I note that he allowed George Thomson to "re-examine" himself at the end of his evidence.
@@eegaugh I was present that day and as a SPM was delighted to be one of the first to get up and walk out.When outside I was asked if I was OK and was I with someone.Thw Inquiry employ two full time trauma counsellors to check the well being of attendees,Class.
I enjoyed your videos very much, but deeply saddened by the general lack of a moral compass, which is becoming evident not only at the post office. Time to face up before our morals our lost for good.
Yep, I think you are right. At university we mostly now just deliver a technical education, not a moral education so our students come out knowing how to do a thing but not knowing why they should or shouldn't do it.
Any institution which has a large, permanent internal structure + inter-relationships, which, as a group, serves an outside, varying population of customers/consumers (schools, hospitals, prisons, libraries, in this case sub post-masters, and, to some extent, churches), will have the problem of prioritizing serving the internal "staff" over serving the intended customers/ consumers.
Yep good point. I think that links to the issue around the relational nature of contracts between employers and employees'franchisees in public institutions. p
How was it his witness statement if the words came from Cartwright King? It was Cartwright King's witness statement. They should have sent Bulldog Bradshaw away to write his own statement and put that one in the bin.
This shouldn't need to be taught - especially with regard to legal documents!!! If your signature is at the bottom, you'd better be darn sure you can defend what's over top of it!
Thank you. No problem. You are no doubt inundated with comments. However, if I may, would it be possible to email you direct? I have recently been subjected to a Vexatious Complaints Policy being adopted by Parish Councils which is gathering pace within the UK. This effectively means ordinary people who wish to obtain information from this lowest tier of government are being ‘gagged’. I wonder what your psychological take on this would mean for a person such as myself who suffers from a Bipolar disorder? Thank you for your time. I can send you a copy of the Policy if you wish? Lynne
@@PaulDuckettBritish society has a long history of othering there are three nations in Britain particularly England of upper class middle class and working class they speak differently have different interests follow different sport (perhaps less so today ) and hold each other in contempt
Somehow ironically, if the members of POL watch your excellent video, they may come to realise that they can "get away with it", because no one single person was responsible.
Lawyers for the postmasters, asking Alice Perkins, at least, during the inquiry, a few days back .. where the Post Office executives used "embedded commands" to their subordinates (in the Post Office) .. "crafting a question, in which you are mandating the kind of answer, that you require." This is pretty crafty. Making it known, in as strong of a way possible, without actually speaking the words, of what it is that you, the executive want to see happen. In this case, .. resist, and befuddle any effort made for the truth of what the Horizon software situation was, back then.
Great comment. Yep, it is crafty. Vennells explanation that she was taught that it was a good way of getting truthful answers from folk was pitiful. It's a good way of getting the answers you want!
@@PaulDuckett I've watched a bit of the "inquiry". I just couldn't organize my thinking, of my impression, or take, of the Vennells & Perkins "evidence".. as this lawyer did. But, in fairness, .. this is probably not this lawyer's exposure, to this, either. The email documentation too .. Vennells almost promising her underlings of her continuing unhappiness about the fact that no one had yet come forward, with a "solution". .. again .. the lawyer's "embedded command". Can you imagine the look on her face, IF someone would have told her, in real time .. "Err, .. how about if we just come clean, .. and admit to what is going on?"
I've only watched 30 or so of the cross examinations of the inquiry, but what does seem to be the case, not uncommon in large organisations, is most of those directly involved in the prosecutions and senior managers, the latter until the Second Sight reports implications started to be more widely disseminated and processed, were unaware of crucial information. A few, such as Singh, presented as more transparently incompetent, dishonest, 'prejudiced', or intent on covering up errors to retain his position, knowing previous errors should have led to dismissal, or now potential proseution. As an aside what the inquiry does not seem to be focusing on is how the PO's conduct - including more external legal representatives - stance was being reinforced by court judgements yet despite this, as far as I can tell, Judges who convicted the ''innnocent'' are not being cross examined at the inquiry. Why?
Yes, a really good point. The court system did fail them. One thing I;d like them to look into is how the Law Society were considering reforming the law so that computers aren't assumed to be true if they are in good working order - post office was one of the organisations that lobbied for that law not to be changed in that regard. That was all very fishy indeed. p
@@PaulDuckett I can't say that law is one I have bumped into, or one that makes much sense to me, based on your brief account of it. It might be in the final report the reason why Judges were not required to give evidence is explained, or it may already have been, but I have not seen the rationale as yet!
Of course, in terms of the television interview used towards the end of this video, wanting people responsible named, it has to be remembered that the person pushing for this is Ed Balls, who was part of the Blair government, which is stated by the interviewee. Ed Balls wouldn't like the reminder that he was a part of the start of the whole disgraceful mess. By the way, Milgram is my favourite social psychologist. The way he was treated after his experiment was another disgrace, that you may make a video about one day.
Oh gosh, I completely blanked on that. I live in Australia now and completely forgot about Ed Balls - I though he looked familiar but though that it was just because he's one of those bland generic media types. Oh my gosh, it's Ed Balls. What a hypocrit. So, now he get to pretend to be one of the good guys! Thanks so much for pointing out that it was Ed. And yes, Milgram has been badly treated .... which might be a signal he was on to something. They did a hit job on him, I think.
The financial rewards , I suggest was the main underlying reason for what happened,which wasn’t addressed and the inquiry seems not to investigate. All the parties who caused this mess in some way gained,financially and by ignoring the truth so prolonging the money stream, All the other things you point out , still go back to money, even the selling of Horizon,at the start I have found that if you pay enough people will justify anything,however good a person they think they are ,it’s just the degree to which they are good ,that’s what being human means and why the belief of a religion and forgiveness for being a human.
Yep, I agree. Follow the money trial is usually a good strategy in finding the culprits. Money is like manure. Spread it around and it does a lot of good. But, let it pile up on one place and it starts to smell like sh*t. :)
Plagiarism - When transcribing a legal passage (especially Counsel's Opinion), it would be a mistake to change ANY of the wording of the main paragraphs or points. With multiple transcribing, the original precise intent and content could slowly change, just like Chinese Whispers.
Thanks. Interesting. i was interested in the history of the Post Office Investigation Department, and looked up a translation of the Latin motto under the crest you showed. While I couldn't see the final letter in the motto - I think the English translation is something like : "Gentle in manner, resolute in deed"! It struck me how - if that was (is meant to be) the guiding approach of the investigation branch - it has well and truly lost its way over 300 years!!! Always good not only to research historical facts to understand the psychology behind things that happen (then snd now), but also to inquire into the language used by people to describe their actions/intentions! Cheers
Well done for that. Amazing what a bit of curiousity can uncover. Yep, language and history are the places we should be looking when trying to understand this stuff. Nice work, p.
Yep, I agree. Sadly, for my university students it's considered a high crime. I think that I was trying to give my students some perspective on it, but I think the real world test you'e applied here does put it into it nicely in it's place. Thank you. p
You said something like POL ignored, buried or destroyed the evidence because there was institutional interest in saving its reputation, collecting revenue, and the dominance of individualist explanation of systemic social problems. Wow!
I’ve watched all four parts. This video was obviously the meat of the sandwich. I’m disappointed that so many great ideas were introduced without being fleshed out for context, I.e. MIlgram Experiment and systematic bias. You also hinted at understanding how good people might be bad. However you still seem to indicate that they should be held to account but…. I’m more confused now (maybe for the good). Should the MIlgram guards be forgiven or held accountable INDIVIDUALLY? Where does the self accountability begin? Not all MIlgram guards participated, a sizeable % of participants refused to inflict pain, how does that fact impact the nuance?
Yep, those are fair comments. I think I tried to squeeze a lot into a (relatively) small space which means lots of loose ends. But, confusion is sometimes useful :) Yes, I do seem to say blame the system but also blame the guards. I have a video recently on the UK post office scandal about victim blaming. I think that answers the paradox there. :) p
A significant factor in this injustice is these gigantic corporations think they have a right to public money and public sector let them in effect the tail eg Fujitsu wag the dog ….
Great point, really well made 👍 Thanks so much for posting And, sorry for taking so long to respond. 😟I have got way more comments than I had anticipated on my videos so I'm still working my way through them.
Sorry. Disagree. The only way the system gets fixed is to hold individual wrongdoers to account. Otherwise, where is the motivation to change the system?
Well the presenter is Ed balls A former high ranking Labour politician Who was in govt when this scandal started The uk politicians are implicated in this scandal He received severe criticism for his handling of the baby p case
Hope so! I think the common sense is for people to get a bit of life experience and the moral integrity has to come from being properly socialised - learning to live alongside other people etc. I do fear some folk lack both because they have seen more value in being stupid and selfish! :(
What I saw in the inquiry was POL "managers" and investigators, uneducated people who probably joined the Post Office after leaving school at 15. Then worked their way up to management positions of power. By always following the corporate line. People who knew that the Post Office was the only place where they could get a job with the same status and salary. Who banded together with others within the POL. To support each other, and present a united front. As individually they were all terrified of being "found out", and ending up on the next redundancy list. So making sure that they were never out of step with the POL Group Think.
Exactly right, we are seeing the same sort of mentality in the UK police & fire service. A reluctance to admit there is a problem and an inability to change the system that they have worked in for so long & that the senior managers have prospered in.
I suppose it must be very difficult to admit for any manager that knowingly or unknowingly they are part of the systemic problem. Now that's psychology!!
I listened many times to "intelligent" staff moaning and bitching about how bad management decisions were. Who would then say that it "wasn't their place" to say anything to the managers. Some of them would even brown nose the managers and grass up the "disruptive" staff. So they could beat them to a promotion. @@Sean006
Yep, this is a decent explanation, I think.
Thank you, very enlightening.
I think your comment overlooks the layers of lawyers who protected the scoundrels, becoming scoundrels themselves...but, that's what lawyers do.
As one of the original 555 Post Masters actually involved in this absolute shit show, i would like to personally thank you for your reasoned and thoughtful take on the scandal. It hasn't been easy to remain objective abut this fiasco but pieces like yours are highly appreciated. Well done ! And ....... No i have not yet received my full and final settlement but my claim has only just last week been lodged and i remain hopeful that it will be dealt with within the next month or so and i can finally close this nightmare of a story and move on with the rest of my life..... I cant wait for the day when the words "Post Office" aren't my first and last thoughts of any given day.
It might sound a little flippant, but I wonder if they might erect a statue to commemorate the injustice done to post masters and remind us into the future....right next to Churchill on Parliament square would be my suggestion (a two fingered salute & a plaque below saying "What took you so bloody long?"!)
Kathy, so sorry for my delayed reply. Just wanted to say thanks for your comment and your kind words. I can't imagine how tough it's been for you over the years and how harrowing the past few months has been now that it's back on the front pages. I hope you get justice soon. You have been part of the worst miscarriage of justice in UK history. Your pain and hurt and courage will be a marker in history that I am sure will make those corporate bastards think twice before they try doing anything like this ever again. And it uncovers the incompetence and self interests that sits at the heart of many of our systems of governance and authority. Thanks for being part of a historical moment that has given the system a big shake up :)
Kind thoughts and in solidarity,
p
Thanks so much for your comment Paul, and thanks again for your thoughtful and understanding post. I'm nearly out the other end of this nightmare as my compensation payment is due through TOMORROW ! I'm still engaging daily with the inquiry as we're entering the last stages in the inquiry and testimony of the P O LTD "generals"(Paula Vennells and cohorts) will be testifying within the ensuing few months. Hopefully for the first time in UK history these corporate psychopaths will be held to account. Xx
My sympathy & best wishes to you.
I don't know about anyone else, but I am astonished that so many, very decent ppl, have been trapped in this nightmare for so long.
The difference between SPMS & POL security employees, Board & executives, is startling in its magnitude.
I hope you get full restitution. Their apologies will mean very little, I'm sure..
An aspect of the inquiry I found interesting was the amount of legal bods who have been dragged to the witness table and cross examined. They all expected to be given an easy ride by Beers and co and seemed to be taken aback when this wasn't happening. A good example was Singh when he used "we" a couple of times in his answer as thought he and Beers were sort of mates and should behave in certain manner towards each other by being given an easy ride. The other one taken aback was I think called, Tatford, chubby with blonde, hair he seemed really miffed that he was in the spot where criminals are usually seated and being thoroughly grilled by a KC.
Yes, now you say it, I can see it. I thought that was particularly the case with the barristers. Nice spot. Thanks for posting.
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Are you thinking of Warwick Tatford?
@@melvynnewton It was have corrected. Thanks for that.
Beer.
Toxic bosses though do exist. The NHS is full of them.
Yep, seems a lot of them everywhere. Sadly universities have a fair few number of them too :(
Dr Paul, I’ve found your videos really informative and enlightening. Everything you highlighted about POL as an institution and then a Corporate applies to most businesses these days in the way they operate. I admire the composure of the victims of this scandal and wish them all well. A great learning discussion point that shows many perspectives and ways of seeing. You students are very lucky to have such an insightful, objective pedagog. I look forward to watching other videos. All the best 😃👍
Thanks so much. That's lovely of you to say. Yes, the composure of the victims has been impressive. I love how Jo Hamilton sits at the front and says nothing, but each one of the gets skewered by her presence :)
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@@PaulDuckett Sometimes silence is more powerful than words. I absolutely agree on your point about ‘presence’. The word that comes to mind is ‘gravitas’. She held her space.
@@PaulDuckett Yes!! I've watched her expression and have hoped that the person on the stand has felt uncomfortable by her clear eyed stare 😂
Having delved into genealogy for over 30 years it has become apparent to me that the vast majority of people are completely disconnected from the history of their own family, never mind the history of any organisation they might work for or belong to.
My conclusion from seven decades of experience is that the people who are driving most organisations are mostly concentrating on maintaining and/or improving THEIR OWN PROSPECTS. This requires following orders that they know to be FAULTY, using systems that they know to be NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE and supporting people they know to be INCOMPETENT. Bosses choose employees, including their own replacements, on the basis that those individual's performances won't throw their own abilities or performance into stark relief. Thus, there is a trend towards sameness, yesmen and mediocrity, which is increasingly reflected in government, civil service and big business.
Thank you for this, I just watched all four parts, plus your other videos about the inquiry. I'm not a student, nor am I a resident of the UK but I have become interested in the PO scandal (prior to discovering your channel). I really enjoy and value your thoughtfulness and measured responses. Cheers!
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback. I'm no longer in the UK so watching all of this from a far. It must be so much more painful for folk living there, I imagine.
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😊
Why did it take so long for the public to feel 'moral anger' at what happened to the sub-postmasters (and for the UK government to then take decisive action to right the wrongs)?....Oh, I forgot. It took a TV programme to ignite the fire in our bellies. Which says an awful lot about the pychology of the grest British public (or about where they get their information). The really scary thing is that it was a drama....and open to the subtle influence of the editing process & unconscious bias of director, producers, writers, etc. Scary!
@sean006 : in laymans terms (the horizon issue) was kicked into the long grass from the top down including the Goverment by 2 decades + , people died of age they (those involved from the top down ) hoped it would all blow away with time' it almost did ..........
Yes, it almost did. They must be shaking in their boots right now as they realise teh grass wasn't long enough and the wind wasn't strong enough :)
Good points Sean. I do wonder if it gives us a sign of how much morality has been corroded over the years and how much we've been tricked by all the smokes and mirrors that have been put up to stop us seeing what's really happening to people. How dare they do that to our post offices and our postmasters. And how dare us not have paid attention long enough and how dare us not to have gotten angry enough to have put a stop to it all well before now.
@@PaulDuckett The calculation by the PO decision makers probably would have been to keep the issue low profile. The PO was generally a trusted organisation and I suspect most of the public assumed that the subpostmasters were majority guilty. It took a TV programme to make the public focus on this issue and force them to make a judgement, suddenly the subpostmasters were portrayed as innocent, victims of a corrupt system. The great British ethos of fair play & playing by the rules kicked in and something had to be done. The scary thing is that the legal system 'almost' failed them, Parliament was shown to be fairly toothless and governments (of all hues) just weren't interested.
Cannot blame the public. We have a lot of things to think about. I find myself reading this forum whilst listening to a TH-cam video and I cannot focus on both at the same time (I assume it is how the brain works....multitasking is a fantasy). Personally I cannot juggle too many balls at one time. I choose which battles to fight and other issues I take a simplistic view on (usually based on my personal/political views). I assumed that the subpostmasters were majority guilty because I trusted the PO and Fujitsu to run a professional organisation with checks & balances....turns out I was wrong and the wrong people ended up in jail.
Are there no honest people left in big business any more, will they do anything for a bonus & a good pension?....obviously a big YES in this case. Even Paula Vennels - who is a 'apparently' an Anglican priest failed the moral test. We all make choices....the psychology of choice?!
@@Sean006 Me too. Honestly, I didn't really understand, hadn't actually looked into it, and put too much trust in the legal side. I'd just wrongly trusted that full investigations had happened so the sub postmasters must have been guilty!
Being British has also shaped my, and probably many peoples thinking, that pride in our ancient legal history and in our countries history makes us hoodwinked and deluded 😮
I'm a bit late in watching this series but the way you are presenting your take on this is so interesting, and useful.
I wish I new this 40 years ago! It explains such a lot.
It also explains why my Councillors are blindly going along with things without any understanding and why the council leader is vilifying me (as an independent and critical thinking resident) , because he knows I'm damn right!
Bad things happen when good people do nothing!
Thanks so much Linda, and great final sentence to your post. Absolutely! And, sorry for taking so long to respond. I have got way more comments than I had anticipated on my videos so I'm still working my way through them.
I appreciate you articulating what rubbed me the wrong way with that exchange about which individuals to blame as it felt like the presenters were really missing the point of it all and minimising the very important journalistic work that had been done by suggesting that she was "too forgiving" of individuals
Thanks so much. I think we made sense of it in the same way :)
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A thought provoking analysis.
One day they may find the defects that they have missed so far. The defect that is still causing POL accounting discrepancies.
I look foreard to watching your other videos. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
So sorry for taking so long to reply. Thanks so much for your encouragement Alan. I very much appreciate it.
I made it through all 4. 👍
I can now see better that the POL needs to be retaught is actual job. They had too many ‘we’ve always done it this way’ moments.
It reinforces my thought that managers get in the way of workers doing their best job.
It was the worst case of protecting themselves, not their true mission: the mail, the community, the employees.
Yay, thanks so much for making it through all 4. It was a bit of a marathon. Yep, managers often get in the way ... they think they know better but rarely do.
Thank you Professor for a very clear and insightful analysis of one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in British history - justice for all subpostmasters and jail for all perpetrators 👍
Thank you so much for your encouragement. Yep, justice for our spms!
Years ago I read a book about the war against the Japanese in Burma. The phrase that I remember was "I had the SOB in my sights, nobody would have known it wasn't a sniper"! The soldier was referring to a staff officer who interpreted his General's wishes in a particularly inappropriate manner. The POL situation is the same and reflects the sycophantic attitude of those inadequate people who are in positions that are far above their abilities!
Wow, that is an excellent analogy. Very thought provoking. Thank you so much for posting.
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I worked for the Post Office Security and Investigation Service on aviation security.The investigators were proud of always getting a conviction and seemed to regard themselves as the cream.Posties referred to them as the "Gestapo".Your analysis was illuminating Dr.
At 50 seconds - the false assumptions were not just POL belief of incompetence or wrong doing by sub postmasters, but ALSO the infallibility of the great Horizon system and its output reports.
Yes, you are absolutely right on that. Thank you for pointing it out as it is an important point.
But the underlying premise was always historically (even before Horizon) "Sub-Postmasters are not to be trusted".
What a learning curve!!! just to take this in proves how robotically one lane thinking can be .
I agree :)
I look at this from my own experience like every one else. I went to join my first Merchant Navy ship at 17 to train to be a Deck Officer with a traditional Liner Cargo Ship Company.
I was very well trained, at twenty still a Cadet I learned you had to be able to justify your actions, as perhaps one day I maybe standing in the front the bench defending my freedom.
I failed to see anyone at the Post Office actually being capable of doing that, ignorance of the actual situation is not a defense. That is incompetence.
The other governemnt agency that was tasked with policing before the creation of an actual police force was HM Customs and Excise. Their remit, apart from collecting certain taxes and duties etc was to actually stop, arrest and capture smugglers and any other persons involved in contraband or tax/duties evasion. They were given sweeping powers to be able to do this.
In more recent years, HM Inland Revenue and HM Customs and Excise were merged to form HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC). Part of the reasoning behind this merger was to ensure that the Inland Revenue acquired the already pre-existing powers already held by HM Customs and Excise.
Britain is a country with an awful lot of legacy legislation which is still in use - some dating back over 1,000 years.
really good point.
thanks for posting :)
Didn't HMRC have it's own scandal?
@@cassandratq9301 HMRC has lots of problems and some of its approaches to pursuing tax debts bears a similarity to how POL pursued the Sub Postmasters.
However, there hasn’t been a scandal as such - or at least, not yet.
It's always, "oh well, lessons learned! Let's move forward!" This totally avoids accountability.
Absolutely. Well spotted.
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Dr Paul, thanks for your insight on this. I'm not sure the Inquiry will look at the deeper organisational and psychological drivers in all this, but I hope they do. It goes to show how big those ivory towers we habitually build, and how difficult they are to assail sometimes. What happened to good old-fashioned integrity? Regards
Thanks so much. Yes, what did happen to old fashioned integrity. Really good question :)
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PO defence case: "It wasn't me it was the others, they made me do it"
You forgot ,"not my job".
Yes, nicely summed up :)
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Very interesting to hear the historical background of the POL. This could be a very important part of an explanation of what has 😢happened.
But but you can't "blame" everybody within Fujitsu that they kept Horizon bugs and issues under the rug: from what I've heard mr Jenkins was sincerely about telling the truth and about fixing issues which was to him just a obvious process of bridging on a large new it system online.
Yes, that is a very fair and well reasoned alternative view. I really appreciate you posting it.
Many thanks,
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With all the well paid intelligent individuals (lawyers, judges etc) involved in this fiasco did not one of them ask 1. "where is the stolen money" or 2. "what evidence was established to indicate that it used to finance a lavish lifestyle" The only evidence prosecutors had was the computer system which should have been used to investigate points 1&2
Yep, it's amazing no one asked the most basic of questions.
Those prosecuters should lose their law licenses for violating their duty to the court. They prosecuted people usibg NO real evidence - and withheld exculpatory evidence!
The best example of this is grilling of David Teale in the case of Qouram the local postmaster in North Uist. The fiscal Teale was asked where the £10k ended up. The subpm made up an answer to avoid going to jail and Teale accepted this answer without ever checking if the money was in the 2 bank accounts.
Proseutors did look for the ''missing money' on occasions, did you not watch the inquiry, or most of it? They tried to look into bank accounts, etc. The problem is it is not always easy to access these. Further just because someone does not appear to have spent 'extra money' does not mean they do not have it somewhere.
@@miketomlin6040 The fact that there was no collaborative evidence of "missing money" or evidence of lavish lifestyles maybe should have raised red flags to maybe investigate the computer system that is indicating shortfalls in cash. Did the prosecuters believe that the SPMs had become criminal masterminds & had found a way to steal money without leaving any evidence to show where it went.
Fascinating history and account. Thank you.
Thanks so much for your lovely feedback,
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The culmination of a very helpful series. Thank you. Only one observation, is it really the case that the post office investigations branch is the oldest investigations branch in the world? As one challenge, UK military police organisations such as the RMP claim lineage back to the 13th century. Even the MoD police claim antecedents in the 17th century?
It was interesting that Ed Balls shut up quickly as soon as Rebecca mentioned Tony Blair's name.
paul thank you for your insight i am not a UK resident but of the US . as a atudent in AU i worked holiday jobs at the AU PO and we took the civil service oath and they made us very aware and afraid about postal inspectors. Until you pointed it out i did not realise they had no special powers ,just the powers in law available to any investigator. small point in relation to this massive and arrogant miscarriage of justice The lessons are global.
Thanks so much for your post. Yes, these issues are global as you say. And, sorry about my terribly late response - I am still catching up with all the comments.
Eg Paul, today if you submit a notification of postal theft/ loss to US Postal Service inspectors, even of a tracked item,
you likely wont even get an acknowledgement, in my repeated experience. Individual breaches are apparently just too paltry to merit investigation by the so called inspectors.
They have a self defined higher calling, and its in line with the chief DeJoy's priorities,
who apparently is unsackable. o me miserum!
I liked his proposal that PO prosecutors and criminal investigators were acting as if the CP&I Act 1996 didn’t exist. Except that prosecutions in Northern Ireland and Scotland were ALL carried out effectively by the state’s prosecution services in each jurisdiction & where parallel legislation to the CP&IA in England and Wales was also enacted. It doesn’t seem to have protected PO agents from prosecution, as rules on disclosure were equally ignored. Indeed it looks as if proportionately more were prosecuted in Scotland, as there were apparently over 100 cases out of about 900, even though less than 8% of the population lives there. The Crown Office has been very reluctant to admit mistakes and a Senior Scottish lawyer , Roddy Dunlop, Dean of the Faculty(of advocates), has gone as far as criticising the use of legislation to exonerate those convicted in Scotland, arguing that all those wrongfully convicted should have to fight their cases through expensive appeal court cases (with lots of cash for Roddy’s fellow advocates). Why? In Roddy’s view, Perish the thought that one actually guilty post master/mistress should be wrongfully acquitted and compensated.
thanks for posting :) Really important detail.
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Shameful.
The David Teale interview is a good one to watch to get a handle on the Scottish approach.
Thank you for this very enjoyable and thoughtful video.
Playing the amateur psychologist: in periodically looking up and to the left are you lying or just consulting your notes?
Ahhhh .... depends where your notes are :) My colleagues has looked into the thing about eye gaze and lying (Dr Rebecca Wilcoxson - theconversation.com/profiles/rebecca-wilcoxson-1418734). She's really smart and her work has figured out that most of what psycholgy has said about the detection of lies is, ironically, a lie. So, there are no simple tests to detect lying ... actually no sophisticated ones either. The trick to telling if someone is lying is knowing their character and corroborating their story, but also doing what folk like Mr Beer is good at - catching folk off guard :)
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Ahhhh .... depends where your notes are :) My colleagues has looked into the thing about eye gaze and lying (Dr Rebecca Wilcoxson - theconversation.com/profiles/rebecca-wilcoxson-1418734). She's really smart and her work has figured out that most of what psycholgy has said about the detection of lies is, ironically, a lie. So, there are no simple tests to detect lying ... actually no sophisticated ones either. The trick to telling if someone is lying is knowing their character and corroborating their story, but also doing what folk like Mr Beer is good at - catching folk off guard :)
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@@PaulDuckett Thank you for this constructive reply to my slightly mischievous question. I will follow up the link you kindly provided.
I agree that Mr Beer is a formidable cross examiner; the inquiry format seems not to allow for re-examination, however, and this leaves the chairman to find the right balance (I note that he allowed George Thomson to "re-examine" himself at the end of his evidence.
@@eegaugh I was present that day and as a SPM was delighted to be one of the first to get up and walk out.When outside I was asked if I was OK and was I with someone.Thw Inquiry employ two full time trauma counsellors to check the well being of attendees,Class.
I enjoyed your videos very much, but deeply saddened by the general lack of a moral compass, which is becoming evident not only at the post office. Time to face up before our morals our lost for good.
Yep, I think you are right. At university we mostly now just deliver a technical education, not a moral education so our students come out knowing how to do a thing but not knowing why they should or shouldn't do it.
Any institution which has a large, permanent internal structure + inter-relationships, which, as a group, serves an outside, varying population of customers/consumers (schools, hospitals, prisons, libraries, in this case sub post-masters, and, to some extent, churches), will have the problem of prioritizing serving the internal "staff" over serving the intended customers/ consumers.
Yep good point. I think that links to the issue around the relational nature of contracts between employers and employees'franchisees in public institutions.
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How was it his witness statement if the words came from Cartwright King? It was Cartwright King's witness statement. They should have sent Bulldog Bradshaw away to write his own statement and put that one in the bin.
Never agree to put your name underneath someone else's words!
Yes, there is an important lesson in this.
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Yes, absolutely
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This shouldn't need to be taught - especially with regard to legal documents!!! If your signature is at the bottom, you'd better be darn sure you can defend what's over top of it!
Yep, absolutely :)
Definitely....I am flabbergasted that it happened!
Absolutely, flipping well brilliant!
I am so sorry for my late acknowledgement of your comment Lynne. Just wanted to say a big thank you for your lovely encouragement.
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Thank you. No problem. You are no doubt inundated with comments. However, if I may, would it be possible to email you direct? I have recently been subjected to a Vexatious Complaints Policy being adopted by Parish Councils which is gathering pace within the UK. This effectively means ordinary people who wish to obtain information from this lowest tier of government are being ‘gagged’. I wonder what your psychological take on this would mean for a person such as myself who suffers from a Bipolar disorder? Thank you for your time. I can send you a copy of the Policy if you wish? Lynne
The consistent "othering" of the Sub-Postmasters (who are actually POL's customers!) by POL is really disturbing.
Yes, I think you've picked up the key thing here. It's the othering that allowed them to do such harm to them.
@@PaulDuckettBritish society has a long history of othering there are three nations in Britain particularly England of upper class middle class and working class they speak differently have different interests follow different sport (perhaps less so today ) and hold each other in contempt
thanks again , very interesting !
thanks so much for your feedback. Really appreciate it. It's great to have such lovely encouragement.
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Somehow ironically, if the members of POL watch your excellent video, they may come to realise that they can "get away with it", because no one single person was responsible.
Lawyers for the postmasters, asking Alice Perkins, at least, during the inquiry, a few days back .. where the Post Office executives used "embedded commands" to their subordinates (in the Post Office) .. "crafting a question, in which you are mandating the kind of answer, that you require."
This is pretty crafty. Making it known, in as strong of a way possible, without actually speaking the words, of what it is that you, the executive want to see happen. In this case, .. resist, and befuddle any effort made for the truth of what the Horizon software situation was, back then.
Great comment. Yep, it is crafty. Vennells explanation that she was taught that it was a good way of getting truthful answers from folk was pitiful. It's a good way of getting the answers you want!
@@PaulDuckett I've watched a bit of the "inquiry". I just couldn't organize my thinking, of my impression, or take, of the Vennells & Perkins "evidence".. as this lawyer did. But, in fairness, .. this is probably not this lawyer's exposure, to this, either.
The email documentation too .. Vennells almost promising her underlings of her continuing unhappiness about the fact that no one had yet come forward, with a "solution". .. again .. the lawyer's "embedded command".
Can you imagine the look on her face, IF someone would have told her, in real time .. "Err, .. how about if we just come clean, .. and admit to what is going on?"
The disingenuousness oozed out of that woman.
(It was totally about getting the answers she wanted + she made that clear to everyone at the time.)
I've only watched 30 or so of the cross examinations of the inquiry, but what does seem to be the case, not uncommon in large organisations, is most of those directly involved in the prosecutions and senior managers, the latter until the Second Sight reports implications started to be more widely disseminated and processed, were unaware of crucial information. A few, such as Singh, presented as more transparently incompetent, dishonest, 'prejudiced', or intent on covering up errors to retain his position, knowing previous errors should have led to dismissal, or now potential proseution. As an aside what the inquiry does not seem to be focusing on is how the PO's conduct - including more external legal representatives - stance was being reinforced by court judgements yet despite this, as far as I can tell, Judges who convicted the ''innnocent'' are not being cross examined at the inquiry. Why?
Yes, a really good point. The court system did fail them. One thing I;d like them to look into is how the Law Society were considering reforming the law so that computers aren't assumed to be true if they are in good working order - post office was one of the organisations that lobbied for that law not to be changed in that regard. That was all very fishy indeed.
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@@PaulDuckett I can't say that law is one I have bumped into, or one that makes much sense to me, based on your brief account of it.
It might be in the final report the reason why Judges were not required to give evidence is explained, or it may already have been, but I have not seen the rationale as yet!
Of course, in terms of the television interview used towards the end of this video, wanting people responsible named, it has to be remembered that the person pushing for this is Ed Balls, who was part of the Blair government, which is stated by the interviewee. Ed Balls wouldn't like the reminder that he was a part of the start of the whole disgraceful mess. By the way, Milgram is my favourite social psychologist. The way he was treated after his experiment was another disgrace, that you may make a video about one day.
Oh gosh, I completely blanked on that. I live in Australia now and completely forgot about Ed Balls - I though he looked familiar but though that it was just because he's one of those bland generic media types. Oh my gosh, it's Ed Balls. What a hypocrit. So, now he get to pretend to be one of the good guys! Thanks so much for pointing out that it was Ed.
And yes, Milgram has been badly treated .... which might be a signal he was on to something. They did a hit job on him, I think.
The financial rewards , I suggest was the main underlying reason for what happened,which wasn’t addressed and the inquiry seems not to investigate.
All the parties who caused this mess in some way gained,financially and by ignoring the truth so prolonging the money stream,
All the other things you point out , still go back to money, even the selling of Horizon,at the start
I have found that if you pay enough people will justify anything,however good a person they think they are ,it’s just the degree to which they are good ,that’s what being human means and why the belief of a religion and forgiveness for being a human.
🎯 Bingo.
Yep, I agree. Follow the money trial is usually a good strategy in finding the culprits. Money is like manure. Spread it around and it does a lot of good. But, let it pile up on one place and it starts to smell like sh*t. :)
Everyone seems to forget about the 1 loss of life due to this scandal
Plagiarism -
When transcribing a legal passage (especially Counsel's Opinion), it would be a mistake to change ANY of the wording of the main paragraphs or points.
With multiple transcribing, the original precise intent and content could slowly change, just like Chinese Whispers.
Great point, thanks for posting. And, sorry about my late response, I am still in the process of catching up on all the comments. 😊
Thanks. Interesting. i was interested in the history of the Post Office Investigation Department, and looked up a translation of the Latin motto under the crest you showed. While I couldn't see the final letter in the motto - I think the English translation is something like :
"Gentle in manner, resolute in deed"!
It struck me how - if that was (is meant to be) the guiding approach of the investigation branch - it has well and truly lost its way over 300 years!!!
Always good not only to research historical facts to understand the psychology behind things that happen (then snd now), but also to inquire into the language used by people to describe their actions/intentions! Cheers
Well done for that. Amazing what a bit of curiousity can uncover. Yep, language and history are the places we should be looking when trying to understand this stuff. Nice work, p.
Plagerism is a VERY secondary issue here. Plagiarism is a lesser sin than intentional wrongful prosecution!
Of course they're using "I let them write it for me" as a way to to weasel out of accountability.
Yep, I agree. Sadly, for my university students it's considered a high crime. I think that I was trying to give my students some perspective on it, but I think the real world test you'e applied here does put it into it nicely in it's place. Thank you.
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this is not just post of it is the same teachings at Royal Mail .. The management at RMG i think is much worse than POL
Oh dear, that must be really terrible in that case.
You said something like POL ignored, buried or destroyed the evidence because there was institutional interest in saving its reputation, collecting revenue, and the dominance of individualist explanation of systemic social problems. Wow!
Thanks Gary, I prefer the way you put it. You've a great way with words.
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Wait-isn’t that reversed plagiarism?
That made me giggle :) thanks for posting it :)
Jarnail Singh, criminal lawyer. He's right - on both counts.
Ed Balls at 27:50 - on a fishing expedition! 🤣
That's a zinger (good put down). I like your style :)
And, sorry it has taken me so long to responsed - work has gone crazy.
@@PaulDuckett You have absolutely *no* need to be sorry, sir. I know you're busy.
I’ve watched all four parts. This video was obviously the meat of the sandwich. I’m disappointed that so many great ideas were introduced without being fleshed out for context, I.e. MIlgram Experiment and systematic bias. You also hinted at understanding how good people might be bad. However you still seem to indicate that they should be held to account but…. I’m more confused now (maybe for the good). Should the MIlgram guards be forgiven or held accountable INDIVIDUALLY? Where does the self accountability begin? Not all MIlgram guards participated, a sizeable % of participants refused to inflict pain, how does that fact impact the nuance?
"I am in blood
Stepped in so far, that, should I wade no more,
Returning were as tedious as go o'er"
[Macbeth, Shakespeare]
Yep, those are fair comments. I think I tried to squeeze a lot into a (relatively) small space which means lots of loose ends. But, confusion is sometimes useful :) Yes, I do seem to say blame the system but also blame the guards. I have a video recently on the UK post office scandal about victim blaming. I think that answers the paradox there. :) p
They were being pain bonuses to prosecute by he POsts Office LTD
Yes, that's horrific. Sometimes it's hard to imagine how it could be any worse and then we find that out. Oh boy!
That was my eye opening moment. ‘If they get a conviction, they get a bonus’ horrific!!!
Bow Street is pronounced bow, as in bow and arrow.
Ahhhh, that is good to know. I make a mess of pronouncing most things so I often need correcting. Thank you for helping me with this :)
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Thankyou very much.
A significant factor in this injustice is these gigantic corporations think they have a right to public money and public sector let them in effect the tail eg Fujitsu wag the dog ….
Great point, really well made 👍 Thanks so much for posting And, sorry for taking so long to respond. 😟I have got way more comments than I had anticipated on my videos so I'm still working my way through them.
Excellent
Thank you so much, that's lovely feedback.
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Sorry. Disagree. The only way the system gets fixed is to hold individual wrongdoers to account. Otherwise, where is the motivation to change the system?
Yep, good point. I think you'd agree more with my Vennells vs Beer video :)
Well the presenter is Ed balls
A former high ranking Labour politician
Who was in govt when this scandal started
The uk politicians are implicated in this scandal
He received severe criticism for his handling of the baby p case
Yep, let's hope the focus shifts fully to them soon
Ed Balls had no control over the Post Office. It was the Liberals and Torrys that let it happen
Can you teach common sense and moral integrity/
Hope so! I think the common sense is for people to get a bit of life experience and the moral integrity has to come from being properly socialised - learning to live alongside other people etc. I do fear some folk lack both because they have seen more value in being stupid and selfish! :(