Unveiling the Mystery: Could YF-23 Black Widow Make a Comeback?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ย. 2020
- YF-23 Black Widow - could it return? A defense update in aviation news:
#BlackWidow #fighter
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The YF-23 was Northrop and McDonnell Douglas's entry into the Advanced Tactical Fighter or ATF competition, which went up against the Lockheed YF-22. Notable features of the YF-23 include twin angled tails, a trapezoidal shaped wing, underwing engine air intakes, and engine exhaust channels. Let's take a look at some key specifications for the YF-23:
Specifications
Length: 67 FT 5 IN (20.55 M)
Wingspan: 43 FT 7 IN (13.28 M)
Height: 13 FT 11 IN (4.24 M)
Empty weight: 29,000 LB (13,154 KG)
Max Takeoff weight: 62,000 LB (28,123 KG)
Maximum speed: CLASSIFIED, ESTIMATED ABOVE MACH 2 WITH MACH 1.6 SUPERCRUISE
RANGE: 2,424 NMI (2,789 MI, 4,489 KM)
Engines: Each General Electric YF120
produces
23,500 LBF (105 kN) thrust dry, or
35,000 LBF (156kN) with afterburner
Thrust to weight Ratio: 1.36
Design support provided by BVR:
bvr.design/
Northrop Grumman has been in talks with Japan regarding their 6th generation stealth fighter, which some speculate could be a reemergence of the YF-23 Black Widow with even more advanced electronic warfare capability than the 1990 version.
Credits/Attributions:
"The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement."
Минобороны России
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
General Electric YF120 Engine Photo
Alex Luyckx | Flickr
Splitter Plates F-4 Phantom Photography:
Marcelloo, CC BY-SA 3.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/b..., via Wikimedia Commons
Jet Turbine Engine drawing:
Jeff Dahl, CC BY-SA 4.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/... , via Wikimedia Commons
Eurofighter Typhoon Air Intake Photograph:
Valder137, CC BY 2.0 creativecommons.org/licenses/..., via Wikimedia Commons
Music from filmmusic.io "Hiding Your Reality" by Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) License: CC BY (creativecommons.org/licenses/b...)
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Over designed, over performed, over computed, and Overlooked ...... I wanna see these live. YF-23 was so beautiful.
With more modern Avionics Black window II would be amazing.
It would have been something else to have. One of the biggest weaknesses of stealth craft is their exhaust. The F22 and F35 are both vulnerable from the rear at all angles. While the YF23 was only vulnerable from above and behind.
Play Ace Combat on PS2 or Ace combat 7 on PC
@@trevorj5772 look where that got DoD
If you want to see one live it is at the USAF museum in Dayton Ohio
The YF-23 is such a beautiful aircraft. Way ahead of its time. I would love to see a modern version of it flying.
It's definetely more elegant than the 22, but it isn't a beauty contest of course... Especially not if you keep the price per plane in the back of your head. One can build quite a number of hospitals and school buses with that money. And anyway, one of these days the Russians or Chinese will anounce they have found another way than radar to make the stealth plane visible again.
I built an electric ducted fan RC plane of the YF-23... i love taking it out to fly and seeing peoples reactions thinking its some new radical design.
See Japan
I would even dare say Ahead of OUR time
The YF23 is a good starting point for a generation 6. To make it the go to fighter it needs several alterations. It needs to have a range equal or greater than the best Russia model of over 3000 miles. It should have a 5000 mile range at least with drop tanks. It needs 2 engines, super cruise at 1800 mph, and a top speed of 2300 mph. This would put it on the same level as an F15EX. It needs to carry a weapons payload of double the F15EX. This would make it a fighter bomber, and capable of carrying several cruise missiles, and satellite killing hypersonic missles. It would fill a nitch in our air defense that currently is dependent on the F15 C/D. It would actually be a fighter designed as a missle launch platform to remove enemy satellites. We've got nothing that actually brings new and better satellite killing abilities, and this jet could do that. The large payload allows for several defensive methods that can be added to the jet increasing survivability. The jet could have a volcan system for both offensive, and defense against missles. The new design should allow the jet to reach a ceiling of 100,000 ft. for a short period to launch missles, and high elevation long range stealth cruise missiles. (To be designed later) . I'm a big advocate of a 2 seat system. Pilot to fly, and handle basic air to air combat, and a weapons tech to manage all the systems available to the gen6. By dividing up the work load the fighter becomes more responsive, and has eyes in the back of it's head so to speak.
Bring it back, with 6th gen technology. She deserves a chance.
China might be the first to build something similar
I completely agree.
@@qaz120120 yes if course after they steal the plans first
I agree, it was the better plane, thrust vectoring lost it for them?, I just don’t believe that, the navy would have taken it.
@@qaz120120
China can only steal from the west, but they can’t innovate.
Their Confucian based society discourages and even punishes creative or unconventional thinking.
Wouldn't surprise me if the airforce has modernized F-23 designs. The fighter was so far ahead technologically it would make sense the air-force would base a 6th gen or Intern between 5th and 6th gen based on the FY23. The fighter is waiting for its moment to shine.
Oh theirs no question yf23 is back or will be bck question is it back for the us or Japan or both
@@raleighkellyc9375 It would cost to much for lockheed to recreate the F-22 production assembly especially when they have the F-35 being its premier export and homeland aircraft currently in production in facilities the F-22 was originally built in.. If anything Its much cheaper for lockheed to simply modify the F-35 to be smaller F-22's if they wanted to with only modification to the assembly lines being neccesary to any changes to the design.. I think this is the sales pitch they did to Japan infact.
Boeing which owns the FY-23 would have to scratch build a assembly line for the fighter That in itself is exspensive but managable. The FY-23 would simply have what ever modifcations it would need to funciton in modern combat of the 2020s not the 90s-2000. Thankfully its likely someone has been playing with this for decades so its probable a new design for the 23 is already ready to go. The fighter itself was actually better in stealth and supercruise than the F-22 with agility being excellent as well with the raptor having a slightly better edge in dogfighting. I can only imagine the capabilities of the 23 with modern stealth and avionics.
I see what's Boeing is doing. The F-22 isn't going to have new models in the near future or far future. The Air-force is obviously waiting for the 6th generation fighter and turned the F-35 into the primary all around stealth fighter and the F-22 is the ace. The one you don't want to screw with and they are right. the problem is numbers. Boeing sees a opportunity right now to give not only a top of the line model that has all the characteristic of the F-22 and sell as export with its own tech, but also as a potential interm model that can bridge the gap between the F-22 and what ever 6th gen fighter is coming down the pipe and be able to have a production line that continues for a couple decades. The FY23 would now be a stablemate to the F-22 both pretty much god-tier aircraft, eventually replacing it as the US premier fighter craft due to simply being in production and work alongside the F-35 which would be in production still.
It just all depends if Japan accepts the offer for boeing to build them modernized FY-23s. If Boeing does it. The Japanese variant will no doubt be used as a show-piece for Boeing to entice the US government to buy the FY-23 to fill the gap that the F-22 was supposed to fill. They will no doubt have data of the model in the field and best of all they have a unwilling test subject to compare the fighter with.
The Chinese stealth fighter J-20 which itself is based on the Mig 1.44 in basic design and rips off a number of other stealth designs from western fighters. I no doubt feel its a capable aircraft and having it unwillingly be a test subject to compare the FY-23 Japan variant would be worth the price of building it. If the FY-23 shows to be capable of out performing the J-20 and given what we know the F-22 already does this, you can bet the US will throwing pens to sign a contract with boeing to build US FY-23s leaving china to squirm and wondering if the J-20 will be useful in combat in the future. more money to waste research and steal from others to produce a new fighter or rip-off of the FY-23. Wouldn't be new given they seem to have ripped off the B2 anyway and its likely a knockoff.
If the FY-23 performs about the same or comparable to the J-20 or slightly better and comparable to the F-35 it would still be a valuable export craft that can equalize the playing field against opponents and also give customers a secondary fighter that's not the F-35. Boeing still wins. Especially if the FY-23 doesn't get the teething issues that has plagued the F-35. Even in this case the US might still go for having homebuilt FY23's just not in high numbers due to the need for a better 6th Gen.
Unless the FY-23 design was is indeed the 6th Gen fighter we've been hearing about making the whole situation moot for the US part at least.
@Stardust Neo Shadow Vulcanus Nova Alteisen innocent mistake
@@Quetzalcoatl_Feathered_Serpent Dude, the J20 is a not a true 5th gen! It's a shell of a “stealth” fighter, just like the Iranian “stealth” fighter! They don't have the technology, know how, creativity nor the innovative skill to produce anything that advanced! What they did is just to copy and build an outer shell that looks like stealth, that's it! You can even see how much they lack technological prowess in regard to avionics and such, when you see that they had to incorporate canards. They don't have the tools to make a sophisticated flight control system that could make it work/maneuverable without those canards, that utterly destroy the stealth aspect from all sides, especially the front! They can't even build reliable and good jet engines, let alone a true 5th gen fighter!
Ukraine
*sees title*
Don't do that. Don't give me hope
Same
@christofer MacFistifur so ahead it's coming back in some forms as 6th gen fighter jets.
The ultimate fighter...😎
The master piece to NGAD 6th generation.
The feels... THE FEELS
The Japanese were given this plane to see what they can do.
My favorite part of the documentary was when they couldn’t figure out why the control surfaces moved while taxing and it was the computer trying to take the bumps out of the taxiway
They made a big deal about that, but I've seen F-16s do the same thing.
They? They must be pretty dumb if they don't know how a basic flight controls augmentation system works that have been around since forever.
@@GeoFry3 its been around forever "Now" but not 30 years ago.
@@TexasBulldog74 But it was around 30 years ago. The F-16 was the production fighter with flyby wire, and it had been proven on a specially modified F-8 Crusader, and the F-16s flight stabilization system has done this since day one. So, yeah "they" were pretty stupid.
@@TexasBulldog74 you are correct it was not 30 years ago...more like 60 years ago. F16 and B1B both had fly by wire systems. Both were developed in the early seventies based on previous test aircraft developed in the 60s. (The B1B didn't get the fly by wire till the 80s after the aircraft was reborn from a previously shelved program)
The YF-22 was the better plane to select in the 90's. It just so happens that more than 20 years later the YF-23 would seem to be the better option.
Hindsight is 20/20.
Given the changes to the F-22 design during development it stands to reason the YF-23 would have had its weapons bay altered or more of them added to eliminated the single bay concept. Beyond that it still have a smaller stealth foot print to the F-22 and longer range which would have been kept even if additional weapons bays were added.
Historically, the politicians have always opted for the more "traditional" looking aircraft in competition. Tends to drown the incentive for true innovation, however. The great thing about the eighties' light weight fighter competition is that, ultimately, both contestants won: General Dynamics securing the USAF and many export contracts but Northrop/McDonnell Douglas later securing, quite unexpectedly, USN and USMC contracts that would lead into modernization/development contracts lasting for decades to come. Otherwise put, both prototype aircraft in that competition (YF-16, YF-17 - later developed into F/A-18) found a niche within the armed forces.
It's hard to say. There were numerous considerations and everyone was obviously strutting their stuff. Even by the time the fly-offs were conducted, the USSR was imploding and the project seemed to have been handled rather flippantly by the politicians and generals (if there is a difference).
Were I part of the review teams, I would have pushed for an extension of the flyoffs with funding and planning slated for weapons and adversary interception scenarios, as well as for more fleshed out details regarding production models.
Both aircraft satisfied the requirements of the program up to that point and concerns about reliability and other such things should have been addressed with some follow-on testing before rendering a final decision.
They all good compared to ?
@@jonflynn7466 China. China is the big question. What will we need to deter an ever more aggressive wolf diplomacy oriented China?
I was at Edwards during the testing of both (I was on the AC-130U Gunship test team). Both fighters were impressive to see. Lots of sonic booms at Eddie's Airplane Patch during those tests. B-2 was still in test as well, and the shuttle was landing there, too. Good times!
F22 is an awesome plane, but with the YF23 having longer range, better stealth and more weapons capacity it would have been a better choice for the future of air warfare we envision today.
I thought the f22 could carry 6 amraams and the yf23 only 4?
@@AxiomIndustries The prototype Yf23 had 4 missiles. If the weapons bay would have been actually developed and put into production it could have held as many as 10 with some magazine designs. The YF23s weapon bay was also big enough to store 2000lb bombs, something the F22 cannot do.
There were significant structural flaws with the YF23 and its cost would have been significantly higher than the F22. The USAF made the right choice.
FB-23 would be a better idea. Aardvark's successor.
It is easy to see that F-23 is the superior jet but due to cost, they pick the F-22 while saving those money only to wasting it in the trillions in Afghanistan.
I can't wait to see a Japanese YF-23 if that comes true
Bruh
@HCS Karios
won't happen
Just explain why they most likely wont
@@gordonbinlawsay3310 Northrop may contract with the Japanese and use some of the knowledge gained in the yf-23 program, but the program was shut down 25 years ago. Almost all of those engineers are probably retired. Original tooling likely doesn't exist.
Also Japan will want to be the primary manufacturer, with American companies helping with design, or building only some of the subsystems.
TL;DR you may see aircraft that draw on the yf-23 design, but not anything that could properly be called a true yf-23.
@@gordonbinlawsay3310
The F-35 has nothing to do with it... It is our Govt. Not wanting to and its because of the same reason why the F-22 can NOT be sold to any country
YF 23 is a much, much more beautiful and futuristic plane.
I hope Japan gets a modernised version so we can see it fly again.
Mitsubishi F-X is in development
Japan shall not get it! Like F22 it should be kept only in U.S.
@@jihoon123ful I absolutely think Japan should get it, they loved the F-35 and if LockMart could export the F-22 they would've.
I personally think Japan & The U.K should've also gotten the F-14 as well.
The YF-23 is an awesome plane. I personally would love to see it built.
The YF-23 has the two large engine housings, because the ATF tender originally ordered the thrust reverser as well. Later (but too late) the request for the in-built reverser was removed from the tender and the longer landing distance was accepted. But the Northrop/McDD/Rockwell team was unable to redesign it, so they leaved the oversized shape of the engine compartment. By the way, it has no effect on the trial flights. Maybe, if there would more flights, could caused some measureable effects. The other thing was the far less thrust of the Pratt&Whitney YF119 engine. The original ATF contained the exact thrust requirement for 133kN static afterburner thrust. Both of the PW and GE accepted it and started to develop an engine with this range of thrust. The PW choosed an extremely small bypass ratio to achieve the high specific thrust and low specific fuel consumption at high subsonic-low supersonic speed range, at 30-45k feet. This design had less risk and faster development. The GE choosed a much different approach. They started to develop a variable cycle, or variable bypass ratio engine to provide the best non-afterburner and afterburner thrust at each flight level and speed, from the takeoff to the maximum. During the development, the GE was late with their design, so both of the YF-22 and the YF-23 built first for the PW engine. Both of them was almost ready, when the USAF modified the thrust requirement from 133kN to 156kN. To reach this increased thrust, both engine maker needed to add a larger diameter fan section, to provide more air flow to get more thrust by the easiest way. However, for the PW YF119 engines, both of the YF-22 and YF23 was done already, so there was no chance to re-create a larger diameter inlet tube section and engine housing. For the GE engines, both aircrafts had enogh time for the modification. So if we look back to see the results of these aircrafts, the PW engined YF-22 and YF-23 were the slowest and the GE engine versions were the fastest. To demonstrate the "fancy" post stall maneuvering by the thrust vectoring capability of the YF-22, the Lockheed choosed the GE engine version as well, because of the more thrust. Later, when GE lost the race, they highlighted the big benefit of the variable cycle design of the YF120 in their results, especially, becuse the USAF called the YF120 as "too difficult" design. GE replied that the YF120 has even less moving parts than the F110GE100 or the Pratt and Whitney F100PW100/200 series has and all those variable bypass thing was driven by a few bypass valves and internal doors. However, even if the variable cycle concept has a clear advantage, the YF120 engine's significant advantage was just because it had more raw power than the YF119 had. Later, when the F-22 Raptor was created by more than 70% redesign of the original YF-22 and the weight was increased dramatically from the prototype's 13.5 tons to 19.8 tons (around 30 tons the loaded weight), the engine F119PW100 was also created by a huge redesign of the YF119. They kept the basic design, but really increased the fan diameter and the turbine temperature, the static thrust of the F119PW100 is way above even what the YF120 had.
Excellent analysis and thank you for commenting!
Well said. I worked at GE on that program at Edwards and at the time GE was eating P&W s lunch. It was a political decision to give it to P&W to keep them in the military procurement business.
YF-23 should definitely come back
I think our Military is aware of that too. Can't help but think our Military has a dozen or so in waiting, somewhere.
I want it to come back! There should be two versions , one for USAF as high speed stealth interceptor, one for USN as a Grummanized two seat naval superiority fighter.
My father worked for a sub-contractor company that worked on the YF-23, never seen my father put so much heart and soul into that aircraft. He was baffled a bit why they didn't want to test its capabilities when in several testing and scenarios in Northrups test, it was capable and ready to do it. In the end, my father feels the same way that DoD just had enough of the shenanigans of Northrup and the B2 cost overruns and that taint spilled into the YF-23 program. That is his feeling and perception.
My dad may have worked for the same subcontractor, with basically the same story. He only added that A) Sam Nunn was from Georgia, and Lockheed promised to produce their plane in that state, and B) it was known early on that Lockheed's prototype wasn't working well and needed special consideration to even stay in the running at that time.
I bet it was politics and emotion that really beat the Y-23 just like the US will not convert to bullpup rifles which are better in every way except maybe prone but training and experience will fix that.
I'VE BEEN CHECKING EVERY DAY AND I'M WAY MORE EXCITED YOU RELEASED THIS THAN I SHOULD BE
Same
Black widow deserves it's place in the American military arsenal. Upgrades to current components make this aircraft a first strike monster with capabilities that go beyond even today's new aircraft. She has my vote.
Still looks more advanced than anything out there. I think in modern warfare it would be better as a supersized 5th Generation bomber with a squadron of slave drones.
mini Arsenal Bird
It does, hence the japanese and russian designs are way closer to the YF-23 than the F-22. Not to mention that the F-22's are already show signs of wearing and tearing due to the use of thrust vectoring...
Could replace the Lancer.
The black widow hourglass design painted on the belly was done for safety reasons, to prevent people from injury on the sharp angles of the doors. Since Northrop had built the P-61 night fighter and attack airplane, the "Black Widow II" moniker was a natural suggestion.
The YF-23 and the SR71 are the two most amazing looking aircraft ever built! They're almost alien looking! Not to mention their advances in flight performance.
I'm a dyed in wool Lockheed guy. Even have the Skunk on my forearm. But, the -23 should have won.
The only reason black widow lost, was that the airforce decided they wanted a more conventional design(aka proven concept) instead of the revolutionary and unique butterfly tail of the black widow. Surely the f-22 has somewhat better low speed maneuverability due to thrust vectoring, but yf-23 had superior acceleration,top speed and much stealthier design.Also political influence played a key role since that time of development Northrop grumman was somewhat Unreliable in terms of payments, fraud, and having a reputation of not managing economics and finances as well as lockheed.
@@vasilisbill You'd hope that _neither_ is getting into dogfights, the whole point of stealthy fighters is to be sneaky and kill the other guy before they know you're there. Remember reading Airplane magazine in the early-mid 90s and there was a commentary that in trials the YF-22 was a better dogfighter whereas the YF-23 was stealthier and a better interceptor. Shame both weren't adopted much like the Soviets deciding to go with the Fulcrum AND the Flanker :(
Edit: the thrust vectoring capability of the Raptor was also mentioned as a plus, but you'd wonder if it is all that essential...
@@mrkeogh As an aerospace engineer i can tell you that thrust vectoring for aircrafts is mostly for show. Sure you get some better maneuverability and agility but thats insignificant to the amount of G's modern missiles can pull off( 20-30+ G) having thrust vectoring as well. Also Some missiles also have hypersonic ability. Meteor missiles is instant kill Nowadays. Today in order to defeat the missile is to jam it or confuse it,not run away and avoid it. So in a combat trying to avoid a modern missile is kinda pointlesss since most of them will outperform the aircraft. So in conclusion YF-23 was the better option?Def Sure! But not for that time. YF-23 was way ahead of its era. Maybe because the rest of "enemies" Of USA was waaaay behind in terms of technology but had superior maneuvering and agility eg su-37 /mig 29. So i think that played also a small factor in choosing the f-22 for that time.
I'm a McDonnell Douglas guy, I'd buy you a beer just for being open-minded enough to think that, much less say it.
@@mrkeogh We worked on the vectoring nozzles at P&W and from the first flying demonstrator they found that the vectoring had less influence at speed than they had thought...it's mostly for very low speeds to kick the tail around when the airfoils don't have enough authority and also there's a bit of benefit at very high altitudes where again the airfoils are working with such thin air that the nozzle can help the aircraft point the nose.
One of the requirements of the ATF contest was STO and this is where the vectoring really helps. The aircraft are thrust to weight over 1, so if they can point the nose up they will fly. But you have to roll quite a ways to get up enough airspeed to be able to lever the tail down on the gear and get the nose pointing up....so they can vector up at very low speed which pushes the tail down then vector down to push it up off of the ground. How much this helps? Can't say...but it was one of the requirements and could be helpful if you're trying to fly off of damaged runways in a wartime scenario.
Side note: We also built a round 360 vectoring nozzle that could have been retrofitted to F-15 and 16's. They did work well...but the flight envelope is only expanded in the low speed and very high altitude regions and the AF decided it wasn't worth the cost and added complexity for the mission profile of either aircraft. Fun stuff! And when we saw the two prototype ATF competitors to a man and woman we chose the Black Widow....sexy beast for sure.
Oh....this video didn't mention the P&W 5000 engines that both aircraft used in the competition as there were two of each with different engines to compare. We won the engine contract due to a much simpler and easier to maintain design that actually was outperformed in the test by the GE's...but the Gov had changed the fan requirements and we were running the earlier version while GE had a better one at the time and this largely was why they ran a bit better, but soon afterwards we got our improved fans in service and the AF knew this was coming so they cut a little slack on it. The performance difference was slight and both exceeded the specifications so the real determination was made on the service side of things. The GE was also a variable cycle engine where ours a very highly tuned conventional turbofan and the AF does like improvements over radical innovations when choosing where to put their eggs.
The F-22 is built in Georgia. The head of the Senate Armed Services committee was Sam Nunn from Georgia. If you want to try and figure out the choice of aircraft, start there.
Conspiracy time baby!
@@vivekkaushik9508 not conspiracy, politics... the politicians are hardly ever interested in what performs the best, but what scores the most political points. Case in point, they tried killing the A10 for decades so they could replace it with more expensive less capable aircraft since there was no money to be made and therefore no political points to be scored off the A10.
Lockheed is headquartered in Georgia though.
@@383mazdanevermind that the A10 won't survive on the modern conventional battlefield. A bit of trivia, it wasn't expected to survive long in the Fulda Gap. The gun actually isn't all that. Couldn't even reliably pen an M48 turret from the side in a gun run.
Very good, good information.
The YF-23 was the better jet, in tearms of what the US wanted, but the US has never really been smart at doing the right thing.
Very true to many ass kissers
both have advantages and disadvantages, the weapons of YF23 are stored in two stacks, the ones on the lower side must be fired before using the upper ones, this is a clear weakness
I resent that remark! Where were you sir when the United States Air Force and The United States Navy unleashed the McDonnell/Douglas F-4 Phantom ll to the world? The same critical people said the same thing. Now, the same critical opinions never goes away. 😀😀Go Air Force😀😀Go Navy😀😀
-Sees video in feed
-Hits play
-Hits like
Elapsed time: 0.0000000002 seconds
Thank you and those are some incredible reflexes!
Modernize the design, upgrade the avionics,etc and it will be a monster. For Japan, it needs to transform into a gundam of some sort....lol
That's funny 😄
You might want to check a little franchise called Macross and its line of VFs. Especially the VF-22
@@Kuikkamies I used to watch it as a kid. Was awesome!
They actually have a moving Gundam now, though it can't really walk.
Yep. Gundam transformation jets will be great for air shows and Gundam conventions! Pretty much what i'd like to see in Japan some day.
Northrop was in the doghouse with the USAF over the B2 cost over runs.
Aren't you forgetting F-22 program's big cost overruns entually cutting program far short from actually replacing F-15? (which are still bough to fill the gap to replace oldest F-15s)
With money saved from cutting F-22 going to another Lockheed plane, F-35, which has been huge cost overrun...
@@tuunaes Your not seeing this in the correct time frame. Lockheed didn't have F-22 cost overruns just yet, that would be in the future for the F-22. That's why the USAF cut the run short for the F-22 and later started looking at the JSF or F-35 to try and save some money and get other services to buy into the latest scam.
What about the F-35? The cheap stealth fighter that ended up being the most expensive project in military history!
@@tuunaes Congress was responsible for the F-22 cost interruptions, which really ruins a program. If there isn’t consistent funding, it will skyrocket costs because of the cascading effect of economies of scale.
@@vortexgen1 The F-35 is the result of inertia from the Advanced Tactical Aircraft of 1983-1991, ASTOVL 1983-1994, STOVL Strike Fighter 1987-1994, CALF Common Affordable Lightweight Fighter 1993-1994, Naval Advanced Tactical Fighter (NATF) 1990-1991, Multirole Fighter (MRF) 1990-1993, Advanced-Attack/Advanced/Fighter-Attack (A-X/A/F-X) 1992-1993, Joint Advanced Strike Technology (JAST) merged with ASTOVL, then the Joint Strike Fighter 1996-2001.
The nickname "Black Widow" really fit for this aircraft as it strikes its unaware prey. Sad that it losed the competition.
Politics dude politic s
The name alone should have.
Politics yes! You're right RK! Some of the Panel members who was in the Voting was from the same state the current raptors were to be manufatured!
Always liked the YF-23. Would love to see this revived and actually make it into the skies!
Likewise and thanks for commenting!
6th gen Design and improvising on techs! this would be perfect for 6th gen Design! and hoping Northrop don't sell it to foreign country customers.
Seems like Lockheed is very effective at lobbying, winning contracts. This fighter by Northrop seems very capable and cutting edge.
As a kid that grew up in the 80s... I watched this competition closely. I was devastated when the YF-22 won the competition.
Same here. Feel that bro.
Same. I remember I was on the bus to school when the announced the news on local radio.
Its looks like it is shape shifting as its flying past overhead because of the angles...its just beautiful....the design really should be looked at again.
i waited for this Video for months. Was worth every second.
Thank you I am very happy to hear that - I appreciate your patience!
It is my deepest wish that the Japanese get the YF-23. They didn't deserve to be kept from the F-22 just because some other "allies" aren't trusted. Japan wouldn't do us dirty like that.
Just because a country is allied to another doesn't mean they owe them all of their technology. The US doesn't just automatically get to take all of the technology that their allies come up with, and likewise they don't give out their own of they don't want to. If Japan (or anyone else) wanted their own superior fighter they are more than welcome to fund it and contract Lockheed or any other aerospace company themselves. The US alone funded development on the F-22, I see no wrongdoing in keeping what they paid for. It isn't an F-35 situation where there was a multinational effort. Nobody is stopping anyone else from making something better, it's jut that other countries (wisely) don't spend as much on defense as the US.
As a Japanese-American in the USAF, here is my take on Japan's relationship with us. Japan has been seen as a good political ally since the end of the war, but they have hardly been a good military ally and until their economic bubble burst in 1995, people thought they would surpass us in GDP. Now they have been good hosts to our forces and they haven't betrayed us since the war, but they have been seen as too pacifistic until recently to be a good ally that we can drag with us if needed, and that makes us reluctant to give them our most advanced weapons. If we're going to risk handing out the world's first 5th gen fighter, we better get more out of it than just the price of the plane. Things have changed in the past few years, though, and Abe had been moving as fast as he could to knock down barriers to Japan's military use. However, the F-22 line had shut down long before this and Abe is now retired, so what the future holds is a mystery.
@@user-do5zk6jh1k From what I hear Abe retired with the expressed intention to do things he couldn't do as PM to help strengthen the Japanese position in the Pacific. However, unless the US is willing to strengthen their position around Japan a more militarized Japan would just antagonize the industrial might of the Chinese even further. Instead of spending money on a 6th generation fighter Japan would be better served with upgrading their cybersecurity and AA defenses. Then spending their defense funds on researching better AI for drone and swarm technology, manned fighters will go the way of the battleship and chariot with the new satellite controlled tech that is out there. Their only way of holding down the fort against the Chinese now is to out smart and out tech them.
Also there is a reason the production line of the F-22 was shutdown early, part of it was due to initial costs, the other was the F-22 is built like a Rolex instead of a tank with wings like other older combat aircraft and isn't well suited for prolonged deployment in a battlefield environment with sand, salt, humidity and constant maintenance of the RAM, in short it just doesn't fit what is needed from a modern warplane for the cost, so if anything our allies dodged a bullet by not being able to buy them hot off the shelves.
@@anydaynow01 Japan has good AA defenses through land and sea based systems. They need new planes desperately to replace their F-15s, even if its another Gen 4 plane. They are fortunately getting F-35s to fill this requirement. As for the US, we are doing everything you said we should do. Also, lay off the Pierre Sprey rhetoric. The F-22 RAM is only hard to maintain because it was new, but the rest of it is rugged. The F-35 is far easier.
We developed it, so we get the fruits of that spend and effort. They can develop their own plane.
I've always wondered what a production F-23 would have looked like.
there's good pics out there
I'd imagine its bigger than the Raptor and used more of a strike fighter rather than air superiority fighter. There's a Northrop Grumman proposal to make it as the successor to the Aardvark and Strike Eagle.
The production model proposal had a divertless supersonic intake on each engine nacelle shrouded in a jagged manifold.
It also had a longer forward fuselage with larger munitions bay and, if memory serves properly, there were secondary munitions bays outboard the engine manifold for Aim-9/ASRAAM.
The engine exhaust manifolds were also somewhat shorter as the prototype was designed to house reverse thrust for STOL, later dropped from the ATF requirements.
There were also proposals for a larger intermediate bomber/strike aircraft to replace the FB-111. It was called the F-23 RTA; Rapid Theater Attack.
The thing about the F-23 is that the trapezoid wing shape is stupidly efficient for high subsonic and supersonic speeds below mach 2 as the trailing edge deals with the low energy air to reduce viscous drag and the shock vortecies don't become a big deal until you hit over mach 2. So you have an excellent penetration bomber/strike craft that can cruise supersonic at sea level where pretty much everything else is going to be afterburning to try and keep up.
Throw some high temperature coatings on the thing and tinker with the intakes a bit and the thing would probably be right at home escorting an SR-71 at its working altitude and airspeeds when it decides to climb.
Or at least give it a good run for its money.
The YF 23 looks some thing out of a sci fi movie and soooo much cooler
Dang right it should have been built!👊👊🇺🇸
Great video and very interesting! Thank you! I was disappointed when the award went to the 22 instead of the 23, but that's only my humble opinion.
Glad you enjoyed the video, thank you and I suspect that many people felt the way you did
What a beautiful bird. The Grey Ghost is at Wright-Patterson Air Force Museum. It should have gone into production.
Friend, just discovered your channel today.
I’m blown away by how much effort you pour into each video, truly a bliss in terms of knowledge and information.
Also, the editing is terrific.
Thank you for this amazing work, it’s inspiring.
All the best to you and your kin.
Cheers.
Technically the Russians used the design for their SU-57.
Yup
Yep, like a hybrid of F-22 and YF-23
Second place is always easier.
@@rexmann1984 SU-57 is a failure. As of now it's 3rd generation at best. Plus it won't fly any time soon like 2027 ideally
I don't agree. I think the Su-57 is it's own design. Like some of our designs, parts of it were not ready for prime time. It was a plane waiting on it's engines. Until that time, they would fly the plane without it's stealth skin letting the rivets and irregularities show while they worked out the "fly by wire" coding and other systems . They used the SU-35 engines for this.
The SU-57 has frontal aspect stealth with no IR protection. The YF-23 has all aspect stealth with IR protection. What sets the YF-23 apart from any other stealth plane is it's adherence to the Area-Rule. It has less wave drag between the speeds of .8 to 1.3 mach than any other design. It could probably super-cruise with only one of it's engines. It's top speed was the same as the YF-22 , mach 2.2 because the RAM became damaged above that speed. I think it was said to be fast because of it's climb rate and acceleration.
I hope, and think the U.S. is pursuing the 6th-gen ASF based on the YF-23 design. It was too far ahead of time, but given an extra 30 years, it's just right for today.
If they got the F-35 software right and succeed, it'll be a reality.
Great as always
I think YF-23 was a potentially 6th gen fighter in a competition to be a 5th gen fighter, maybe it was too far ahead of its time. Probably seen as too complicated and risky at the time but had a much higher potential for improvement and overall performance where it counted. Even today its seen as far more interesting and revolutionary than the F22. Imagine where the yf-23 could be today with ongoing development and modern avionics. I think it would be well ahead of the raptor. But the main thing is that as it turns out the whole project was ultimately unnecessary.
The alleged "potential cost overruns" of the YF-23 should not have been a problem, since most had already been ironed out with the developement of the B-2 bomber. I'm thinking that it was more about poor salesmanship, since it was more than capable of the same feats that the YF-22 performed during testing.
i had heard that one of the new 2021 Lego city sets is almost similar to the yf-23 in design
İ would like to buy one
yeah but it looks awful: www.brothers-brick.com/2020/11/21/a-first-look-at-46-new-lego-upcoming-sets-for-2021-revealed-including-city-ninjago-and-creator-themes-news/60289-city-airshow-jet-transporter/
You're right, but I would only get it for the special helmet part.
@@AugustGreen_ me to and i would use the jet as part of my own Lego air force
Only difference is the wings . Nevertheless is a easy mod .
The video we've all been waiting for.
Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for commenting!
@@PilotPhotog a YF-23 video ? From you ? That's a automatic LIKE
Thank you!
With everything I've learned about the YF-23 while drooling over it for years... I've never heard the tails as being described as bigger than the F-5 wings, and almost as big as the F-18s!
Another terrific video 'Tog
Super, super job with this report! Glad I subscribed.
If Japan gets an updated version of the F-23 that would be awesome
Agreed and thanks for commenting!
F-20 & YF-23 Best never put in production aircraft
just miss the arrow
F20 couldn't compete with surplus USAF F-16A fighters. Geoff Who knows all is marketing.
@@plamantin2937 Arrow actually wasn't that good, iirc.
It was ahead of it's time yes, but being that, the Orenda engine was an underpowered mess, it's systems kept having issues and it had serious cost overruns.
As well as some spies in the program, which likely led to the MiG-25/31, which share cues with the Arrow's design.
@@Dexter037S4 Orenda wasn't a mess... the first American woman every to fly supersonic did so in an F-86 (a typically subsonic aircraft) powered by an Orenda engine. They "Canadianized" version of the Saber became highly sought after on the export market specifically because of the extra power that engine gave the same aircraft. If you specifically mean the Iroquois and not Orenda in general, what "systems?" These were the fifties, we're talking about. Almost everything operated by direct input or an extension of direct input through hydraulic input. There was very little in the way of computerization, a fact more demonstrated in the next decade with the chronic issues the first guided missiles (on both sides) had in Vietnam. In terms of raw thrust, however, the Iroquois engine was more powerful than the P&W powering the F-15C. Two Iroquois would have given the Arrow a nearly 1:1 thrust/weight ratio, something then-virtually unheard of (i.e. an Iroquois powered Arrow could have theoretically flown directly vertical without hardly losing any speed... typical of modern 'light weight' fighters but, at the time, the stuff only dreams were made of).
This literally looks like a star wars aircraft.
And it is a 30 year old design - imagine how ahead of its time it was in 1990. Thanks for commenting!
Looks like sci-fi. Does not look like Star Wars.
@@tolpacourt that's your opinion 🤠
Well done video. I learned a lot. Yf23 would be cool to see
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it.
I LOVE THIS PLANE
Yeah, the YF-23 was just too ahead of its time.
Also apparently Northrop was just bad at marketing compared to Lockheed, not just in the tests, but also just trying to sell it to the brass.
On the bright side, this could mean we get an even better version of an F-23 in the future for the US, with all the even better technology we have. F-23 with all of the F-35 tech would be perfect.
Also, wow, I knew the V-tails were powerful surfaces, but I had no idea that they had that much surface area; those were massive.
It's design was borderline 6th gen rather than 5th gen.
Supercool aircraft, good information.
I've always been a fan of the F-22, but the YF-23 still looks futuristic to me even now. If I'd known about it when I was younger, I'd surely have had a poster of it alongside the XB-70 and SR-71 on my wall
I hope the Japanese adopt some of its great attributes.
Best aircraft I have ever seen, couldn’t believe it lost
Same by me
For me, with my very limited knowledge of aircraft, I ask the question, "Should it return?" Are there mitigating factors, now that the Raptor has had sufficient service evaluation time, that would require the Widow to occupy a place along-side it? I think, it was a pity that the Widow wasn't produced in sufficient numbers to have been able to answer such questions....A few Billion Dollars for your thoughts.!!!???. Thank you for giving us a wonderful, 'Food for thought' video. Top-drawer as always! Stay safe man.
Awesome, thank you!
Got the see the Black Widow in person when it was still in the storage hangar at the US Air Force Museum. You had to take a bus over and there were no barricades so you could get as close to the aircraft as you wanted. It was parked under the nose of the XB-70.
Dayton, Ohio museum?
Always loved the YF-23. They should have produced both!
Sadly, as cool as it sounds, it would have been impossible to justify the massive bill at a time when there was no equal adversary (ATF program was completed after the fall of the USSR)
@@TymaDem Considering we are almost 30 Trillion in debt before the next pres. Then it will probably double so yea we could have afforded both. After all it's just paper.
Very well presented..
Glad you liked it
thanks for the blueprints im gonna build my own yf-23 now
FYI, listened to an actual test pilot that flew both the the raptor prototype and black widow said the maneuverability at low speed was actually not tested and it was a perceived benefit of the raptor and not a tested benefit.
Paul even said that at an interview out at Edwards when my father worked there at the Test Pilot School. A lot of things were not tested and just perceived as the norm just by design specs. The 23 was far superior then the 22 and even the pilots that flew them both agreed....
@@SurfnTurfdflYou are correct about pilots saying it was the better bird. The decision was in my opinion from reseraching it was totally political and not about who was delivering the best product for the militart. Paul iswho I listened to at a Peninsula Seniors interview a few years ago. He also said the true too speed wad not tested either. They only had to demonstrate super cruise ability with out afterburner.
@@ShadowOppsRC yup, there were many aspects that were not tested and to myself and pretty sure a lot of other aviation fans here, robbed of seeing what it’s true potential could be. Now my father knew quite a few test pilots when working out there over 20 years at the Test Pilot school and had many a conversation about flight characteristics of both birds and they all loved the 23. Pretty sure everyone knows it was politically motivated for Lockheed to get the contract and you would be hard pressed to find a TP that would say the 22 was better at everything......
@@SurfnTurfdfl true buddy!
Tbh looks cooler than the f22
The Video I was waiting for, thank you very very much. I appreciate that.....Amazing videoo
with the predatory threat of China we should start rolling yf-23 off production line immediately
Yes, because that's how easy it is to get a decades old prototype into production....
@@LordNinja109 as my dad would say, just 3d print it like you do with everything lol
"predatory threat of China" !!!! Man , either change your medication or change your news source ...
@@nectariosprotopapas9112 Even then it's not like the air is the area in which China is a big threat, the biggest threat the PLA presents to the US is their anti-ship missile capability as well as their ground forces. The YF-23 would do jackshit against that as what's needed are better missile defenses, better IFVs and better artillery.
Great video for a great jet 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you and I appreciate your ongoing support!
One of the best planes never made :(
USSR collapse and "peace dividend" in 1990's cut a proportion from defense budget. Even the F-22 never reach its proposed production numbers in order to replace all of the Eagles. The there's the JSF program. US being sole superpower also drop the need to have more military projects.
@@Joshua_N-A hahah peace... yah.. how many trillions were dropped in the middle east?
Like the Avro Arrow, BAC TSR-2, and the F-20 (I could add the F-16XL too)
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Thank you David, Merry Christmas and happy new year to you and yours!
Great video!! Should have had the foresite to build some YF-23's and continue research and push it to the limits!!!
The French FCAS has a similar design, it's not for fun...
aka "NGF" fighter, the tail is similar.
Just finished watching the video
Great video as always! I love the new 3D animations
My speculation is while the an actual YF-23 may not be flying now the YF-23’s technologies demonstrations will definitely help develop that 6th gen fighter
As for the Japan bit the YF-23 could just be stretched longer to house newer anti ship missiles like the ASM-3 and have an overall upgrade to avionics and even engines to meet operational standards and it would make for a great F-3
one thing we are 100% sure of is that a Japanese 5th or 6th gen fighter would serve similar roles to the Chinese J-20 combining stealth with anti ship and anti air capabilities
But thats a discussion for another day
One more thing! The USAF stated that it did actually fly a 6th gen tech demonstrator/prototype
I place my bets on something that used some YF-23 technologies but not the actual YF-23
Northrup-MCD Black Widow II and Gray Ghost were-are-will be beasts!! It will be interesting to see the F-22 snd F-23 at Red Flag!
I have warm memories of those F-15s with LN on the tail. I worked on those jets for 3 years at RAF Lakenheath back on the 90s.
A good video is always tog! Your days of work was definitely worth it! It's sad that this fighter never went under production but on the bright side, it might still have a future with either the Indians or the Japanese as both of them are working on both, fifth and sixth-generation fighters...
p.s can u make a video on the Indian MMRCA tender?
YF-23 advanced design could be the platform for 6th gen fighters as its design is best in stealth and range/payload. It was a mistake to think that 5th gen fighter could fully replace the F15 & F16 each having its own purpose and strength. Stealth fighters should be used to initially destroy enemy defense lines and radars and let the 4th gen fighters to safely clear the enemy skies and strike on the ground. The F15 is a proven fighter with high payload capability and range while the F16 is best in close range dogfights and low running costs.
Excellent arguments and thanks for commenting!
YES!!!!!
I ALWAYS thought about this
Let these 5th or 6th gen aircrafts as strike operations and have upgraded 4th generations jets do the dog fighting and air Supremacy cause they were DESIGNED to do that without having to sacrifice design for stealth..
Just upgrade them with better technology and thrust vectoring to keep it top notch
5th and 6th gen jets and bombers to kick in the door, and the old, upgraded 4th gen Planes to do the hard work. Thats the way to go!
I've seen it, touched it, talked with the test pilot, talked with the head of design and many of the lead engineers at the Western Museum of Flight in Torrance CA. This aircraft was ahead of it's time in development, but way behind the times today. It was a beautiful and powerful machine.
Cool design great characteristics! Build it !!!
Yeah, the YF-23 is a cool plane and was the one that I was rooting for at the time, but it is now a 30+ year-old design. There is just no way that it would ever make sense to tool up such a plane for production now. Restarting F-22 production is a whole different issue, but at least most of the tooling already exists. In any case, everything under the skin would likely need to be redesigned to use current materials and technology.
The YF-23 has a more futuristic look about it.
True, but most times the look of an aircraft has little to do with its combat effectiveness. For example, the A-10 looks cartoonish but it is a fearsome weapons platform.
@@TishaHayes I never made any connection of its appearance to combat effectiveness. I merely stated it has a futuristic look.
Fantastic Video ! Best footage I have seen of the 23's yet ! Ya, they are almost as gorgeous as the 71 !
You make really cool content sound as interesting as paint drying
Factually accurate, entertaining and informative. Another excellent video. The F-22A should have been built in its original 700+ order. If it would be feasible I'd love to see F-23A's in the skies as well. That would be a formidable fighter force, to say the least.
Can you imagine? Thanks for commenting as always!
Shouldn't the price go down had they build more of the Raptors like produced it en mass?
@@Joshua_N-A yes I believe had they built to the original order as @supervillan11 pointed out the unit cost would have been much lower.
Restarting YF-23 has to be multi-national to ensure cost overruns.
I see what you did there....thanks for commenting!
@@PilotPhotog I mean Japan, Israel, India all can join hands with US to do this.
"Well, like Daddy always says, 'Money ain't gonna spend itself!'!"
@@satheeshnarayanan701 China would love to get their hands on this as well 😂
@@awesomerikd168 well India & Japan won't let there secret be revealed but I ain't sure about Israel.
When I heard about the YF-23...wow most beautiful aircraft ever! The lines and sleek design
Black Widow is 1,000x's cooler than the Raptor.
3:40 cough... cough... *F-14A compressor stall*
yeah no negative g's
Build it. Great range. Great manuverability. The gray ghost and black widow would be awesome, and present a lethal threat to China.
Test pilot Jim Samberg is a real down to earth guy. I conversed with him many times while waiting for our children taking music lessons.
That is wonderful to hear, thanks for sharing!
YF 23 was the better plane but Lockheed bribed their way into winning the contract.
It's not always about better but "how many can you afford on the same budget?" One better aircraft can't be in as many places, at once, as three 'good enough' ones.
@@otyliciu I wouldn't want to drive something considered to be just "good enough"...
@@Future-Preps35 Interesting but if the felon was so good then why did India bail?
@@SAMX4949 Because they have poor taste and have their own issues with crony capitalism.
@@Future-Preps35 no one knows the full maneuvering capabilities of the F22 currently and it still far outclasses the Felon in getting the nose around with the released data. Engines are not going to fix that.
The prototype is located at Torrance airport. None fly able, of course. When you stand next to it, you realize it is a big plane
Thanks for sharing and yes it’s very large!
I can only speculate how cool it would be if this got into service...
Final production design would be subjected to changes.
Beautiful
The grey ghost was a better all around plane than the black window and f22.
>.>
Yep. Speed with supercruise and range. When was the last time a fighter got into a gunfight? Viet Nam thinking? The better plane certainly did not win the competition. I get the feeling that the fighter community looked at the two side by side and said "Data be damned, the YF-23 doesn't look like a fighter." and that was that.
People have suggested putting the F-35's avionics in the F-22 airframe. With all of the reengineering that the program office would request it might be just simpler to start with a new airframe...like an F-23 as the starting point. The YF-23 airframe was a leap in design ideas while the F-22 was just an evolution of designs that can be traced back to the 60's.
@@longshot7601 Yep that is exactly what happened, and as was mentioned the cost overruns of the B-2 were still on the military's minds. I'm pretty sure the YF-23 was a few rounds of golf and a a few million spent by lobbyists away from being the one chosen. Lockheed decided to take the design money and put less of it into the design and more into polish and advertising.
@@anydaynow01 Cost overruns are a HUGE problem in any government procurement system. It is especially difficult with defense procurement. The B-2 program was another instance of not just creating new technologies (the known unknowns) but also coming up with technologies that we didn't know that we needed at the time of the bid (the unknown unknows). Pretty much anytime you have something (technology) new it's going to cost. Couple this to the military leadership constantly massaging the spec and that tacks on significantly more costs. There needs to be a way to get out of the 'lowest' bidder mentality and get into a 'bang for the buck' mentality.
The GE engines were certainly more powerful than the Pratt and Whitney ones, but they had a problem back in the day when the preproduction ATF engines were being tested in the F-15's, after landing and heat soaking a few minutes, they would usually burp a pretty impressive fireball (scary AF if you didn't know about the issue). BTW, the F-15's were able to supercruise with those engines before the ATF birds.
Great video, USN has to do something to replace the F/A-18. It seems logical, the Y/F-23 would be a good starting point. The USN and Japan have similar needs/requirements for a fighter. One would think, Japan would make for a great partner in such an endeavor.
They are replacing the Hornet,,,F 35 come to mind? And although dogged by some of the "experts", I wouldn't bet against the 35..Russia is broke, China will never be smart enough to build anything better....lets just hope this "New" administration doesn't cancel the entire military..
My dad worked on Black Widow I ( P-61) , I would really like to see the Black Widow II
The YF 23 was ahead of it's time, I belive that 6th generation fighters will be based off of this beauty
It would've been interesting to see 23's platform in full use. Definitely ahead of it's time. If only there was a solution to exhaust saturation. The avionics suite and the upgrades alone would've given this bird air dominance for decades. Deep, undetected penetration. I can't imagine that the USAF isn't at least using this as a standard for future designs. I'd like one in jet black with all of the red trimmings.
The good ole Ghosts of Razgriz look 😳