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so far this thing seems scarier than the f22, and i didnt think id say that until the NGAD was fully developed. (seriously, dodging lightning and AMRAAMs while hunting an nearly invisible and fast "ghost" that even your patriot cover cant find). Stealth definetely has its limits but, dang this thing is like "you want stealth? Hold my beer bro. GS hold this AMRAAM". He was playing with his food, that last kill was so disrespectful.
I've always loved the YF-23. I am an engineer and worked in aerospace for 25 years. I was visiting a Northrop Grumman facility in SoCal once for work and at the end of some meetings the prog manager asked if I'd like a tour of the F-/A-18 production line. Ummm, yes please. as we walked down the line and I gawked at everything he could see the excitement in my eyes. He said, "you want to see something really cool?" Um, double yes please. He took me out back behind the building and sitting in a rear parking lot was one of the YF-23 prototype birds. I almost cried. Such a beautiful machine. This was a few years after the ATF fly off and she had been effectively mothballed, engines removed, canopy was coated, etc., just sitting in the CA sun.
@@travisvanalst4698 yeah, the pretty inaccurate that the YF-23 is at the back of the F18 production line, it’s in the western museum of flight a few miles down the road.
25 years ago I know the YF-23 was better. But today’s technology makes those huge verts a liability. For all the naysayers, there is a reason the Air Force is top Brass
There were 2 prototypes. The one painted charcoal was the Black Widow. It also briefly had a red hourglass painted on the belly. You're talking about the 2nd prototype, which was painted a lighter gray and was nicknamed Grey Ghost. Both incredible aircraft. I'm a fanboy.
Daaaaaaamn. I was hoping piloting and tactics might win round 2, but then the Widow just comes out of NOWHERE and riddles you with holes. Definitely a blimp.
@@rodneypayne4827 Well you can get a lock on an F-22 in DCS, even if you lose it quickly. But I don't think GS ever put it against a Patriot, at least I didn't see it, but I wouldn't believe that either.
@@rodneypayne4827 Neither the F-22, YF-23, or any other operational stealth fighter could fly within 10-20km of a patriot and not get shot down, especially not without heavy jamming.
From what I have read the YF-22 was a less risky design, it was much further along in development and the Air Force was wary about giving Northrup contracts for both the B2 and the YF-23. The YF-23 was supposed to be substantially stealthier, faster and the second prototype had advanced GE adaptive cycle engines.
That's what I read as well, back in the day. Additionally, there was another Northrup project that had just been cancelled, and the government was worried that that cancellation might affect Northrup's ability to bring the -23 to production. I was disappointed that it all came down to politics rather than quantitative measurements.
Which is funny because today I now have worries about Lockheed getting too many contracts. It seems like everything with large bids goes to Lockheed. I’m almost certain they’ll win NGAD and FA-XX. And with HIMARS being presumably the dominant artillery system of the 21st century and also winning naval contracts with LCS you get towards a defense company too large for national security quite quickly. At least Grumman got the B-21 but it seems like Boeing is getting pushed out of the military aircraft market. I guess they can get AWACS and refueling aircrafts only. But we seem to be rapidly approaching a two prime contractor environment where Lockheed builds fighters and Northrop builds bombers and that’s it.
@@caseychambers2693 Lockheed needs to be reigned in. The LCS was possibly the WORST weapons program EVER for the US Military. While the F-35 is AWESOME in a lot of areas the program itself is a total failure in terms of lead time and cost overruns. The Pentagon needs to write into its contracts that if there are manufacturing or design defects the CONTRACTOR is financially responsible for fixing it. Lockheed has a long history of over promising and under delivering.
Yep!! Pure politics over logical best practice and capability. It is shameful and I can only imagine how it has stunted technological advances with our fighters, weapon systems, and electronics over the years.
i just read that quote yesterday myself. Of course a plane is only 1/3 of the fight. the missles and pilot make alot of the difference. (though admittedly the Goodyear blimp with hypersoonic missles and maverick in the pilot seat would still not likely be a good candidate for an operation, unless of course your a big fan of the WWI zepplins. If thats the case then enjoy that little idea).
Very interesting! Whereas the F-22's superiority over the F-15 is spread out "across the board", the YF-23's superiority is concentrated more in the "low observability" domain. Not that we have a whole lot of real-world data points to go by, but my initial impression after watching your two fights against the YF-23 is that the YF-23 is MORE dominant than the F-22 against 4th generation fighters, but head-to-head against another 5th generation fighter the F-22's superior maneuverability would give it the edge as the fight degrades to within visual range on approximately equal terms. So does that YF-23 now have two blimp silhouettes stenciled below the canopy??
YF23 my beloved fighter, what a pleasant surprise! What a disrespectful kill at the end though😂. Thanks for these recent videos GS! Video suggestion: F23 + F15E combat mission together? Or can you fly the F23? That would be fun to watch!
Man i cant wait to see what the 2 NGAD lrpgrame produce. Especially since GE just announced their adaptive cycle engine. Speed+ceiling+range+stealth+sensors+
I understand how the F-22 got chosen, it was more of a conventional fighter highly manoeuvrable and stealthy enough, but looking back the YF-23 was probably the one to choose, faster and even stealthier.
It makes sense to choose it from a capability perspective but the people there chose the F-22 because Grumman was already working on the stealth bombers so they weren’t sure if Grumman can deliver it on time and on budget.
@@spitfire_flyer5659 And the ironic thing is that USAF ended up paying arm, leg and half the internal organs for all cost overruns of Lockheed's F-22 and F-35...
Maximum disrespect on kill #2. I love it. I always preferred the F-23 to the -22 in the ATF program. Watching it appear out of nowhere for the rear-aspect gun kill was just incredible.
Lightening has a new meaning.; "You can't see me until I'm behind you. " or " by the time you hear the thunder, it's too late." Presentation just gets better and better. 8 hrs compressed in 13+ minutes ? If it was easy, it wouldn't look this good. But damn, yf-23 is sort of surprising. I thought it looked delicate to harsh combat conditions. Raptor is a taunting, muscle flexin' beast.
12:12: For a moment you can see the Yf-23 in the rear view mirror, when GS starts firing off AMRAAMs. I said that before I saw the arrow point to it for the second time, but it was there before.
Reminds me of the time you were in the f-22 against a couple of flankers. Laughing while you came up from behind and gun them both. I guess this was payback.
The really funny moment when you said "I dont see anything on the horizon either"while that thing just standing there... menacingly... on your rear view mirror.😂😂😂
There were two prototypes made of the YF 23 a gray and a black. The gray one was called the gray ghost and the black one was called the black widow two.
How the turntables. Looking at all the new 5th gen fighters coming out, it actually seems like the f22 was a better long term decision, seeing as if you fight another stealth fighter, you could end up at the merge if neither can detect each other.
A friend introduced me to his kid, who flies F-35's out of Luke. He didn't go into any classified details, of course, but this is the first video I've seen that accurately depicts what it's like to fly against modern US stealth planes. He said something like "Imagine trying to fight another man, on a moonless night, with pistols and you have a flashlight and are wearing bright yellow while he has night vision goggles and is dressed all in black."
The Air Force decided to opt for extra maneuverability over extra stealth (and speed). The maneuverability turns out to cost more air-speed than perhaps it's worth. Well, it was all new in those days so "live and learn", I guess. The F-22 is still the most awesome (operational) fighter aircraft the world has seen to date. Can't wait to see the NGAD and see the choices they've made for the future.
Back in the day, when the US had to choose between the YF22 and the YF23, who also was a big fan of the YF23? Less manoeuvrability, but * better stealth * longer range * faster super cruise * higher top speed The ultimate BVR fighter?
Can you imagine a bomber version of the Black Widow II... Twice as many Aim-120 with stealth capabilities. Supersonic fighter bomber is what Ameica's Air Force needs.
I would think the YF-23 and the F22 would complement each other nicely. Very close in mission profiles, but the F-22 could play the missile truck role in this case.
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Thank you guys for watching and if you have any ideas for future videos please put them in the comment section below and they might just end up in the pipeline, thanks again, much Love.
YF-23 vs SU-57 next please!
GS has it feel to be that Goodyear blimp😝😝😝😂😂😂😂
More XF23!!!
so far this thing seems scarier than the f22, and i didnt think id say that until the NGAD was fully developed. (seriously, dodging lightning and AMRAAMs while hunting an nearly invisible and fast "ghost" that even your patriot cover cant find). Stealth definetely has its limits but, dang this thing is like "you want stealth? Hold my beer bro. GS hold this AMRAAM". He was playing with his food, that last kill was so disrespectful.
Great channel. Always great
YF23 pilot must have been laughing his ass off as he rolled up behind you while you're firing AMRAAMs into the void
😂😂😂
😂
Just 3-4 million in missles before it blew!
@@keithwendl8328 They would have burned with the plane anyway, so, might as well, for the one in a million chance ...
🤣😂🤣🤣
The yf23 is the kind of plane that would send you a pick of you sitting in front of your monitor and would ask "this you?".
Lol don't be silly
That is hilarious!!
And sounds true as anything.
Pick?
@@ashhawk2346I think he means is picture.
@@jhonfloibelmiculob6581 Yes i know what he meant, i was pointing out his error.
I've always loved the YF-23. I am an engineer and worked in aerospace for 25 years. I was visiting a Northrop Grumman facility in SoCal once for work and at the end of some meetings the prog manager asked if I'd like a tour of the F-/A-18 production line. Ummm, yes please. as we walked down the line and I gawked at everything he could see the excitement in my eyes. He said, "you want to see something really cool?" Um, double yes please. He took me out back behind the building and sitting in a rear parking lot was one of the YF-23 prototype birds. I almost cried. Such a beautiful machine. This was a few years after the ATF fly off and she had been effectively mothballed, engines removed, canopy was coated, etc., just sitting in the CA sun.
There's a bunch of sites in SoCal, which one was the YF at?
@@technobabble_western museum of flight in Torrance. F/A-18 line is in el segundo.
I’ll take “things that never happened” for 600 Alex.
@@travisvanalst4698 yeah, the pretty inaccurate that the YF-23 is at the back of the F18 production line, it’s in the western museum of flight a few miles down the road.
Against the YF-23 the SAM site was more there for emotional support than any tactical advantage
I think the Patriot is generally a "there, there" system. It helps you relaxed before you get an AMRAAM proctoscopy
The whole entire time I was thinking; "what if the YF23 did the same sneeky thing to GS like the F22 did?"
The YF-23 is an inspirational vehicle. The what-if ideas it invokes always excite me
japan might be using something similar soon according to some
Also they can always still reactivate the program
NGAD will take all that was learned from the 22 and 23 and turn it in to something we can't even understand! That things gonna be something else!
I sighed thinking the same thing. What a beautiful aircraft
25 years ago I know the YF-23 was better. But today’s technology makes those huge verts a liability. For all the naysayers, there is a reason the Air Force is top Brass
"Grey Ghost" was a great nickname for the YF-23; it just pops in and out of existence during a fight!
There were 2 prototypes.
The one painted charcoal was the Black Widow. It also briefly had a red hourglass painted on the belly.
You're talking about the 2nd prototype, which was painted a lighter gray and was nicknamed Grey Ghost.
Both incredible aircraft. I'm a fanboy.
I agree
@@W1ckedRcL I prefer Black Widow just because of the chilling name
@@Void_Dragon Black Widow would've been the official name if it were adopted as a call back to the Northrop P61 Black Widow.
By all accounts it was political. The F23 was superior in every way. But the financial kick backs won the contract.
YF-23 with that second kill. Go take a shower that was dirty 😂😂
Daaaaaaamn. I was hoping piloting and tactics might win round 2, but then the Widow just comes out of NOWHERE and riddles you with holes. Definitely a blimp.
It’s not the plane, it’s the pilo…. *shot from behind*
Yf23 is definitely one of the blimps of all time
In this case, stealth is invisible. I have never seen anything like the YF-23.
This was a fairy tale, it's exaggerated in DCS, it was flying above the Patriot site and that didn't see it? No way.
@@sogerc1 yet you wouldn't say the same thing if it was the 22 would you?
@@rodneypayne4827 Well you can get a lock on an F-22 in DCS, even if you lose it quickly. But I don't think GS ever put it against a Patriot, at least I didn't see it, but I wouldn't believe that either.
*F-22 flying over S-300s flashbacks*
@@rodneypayne4827 Neither the F-22, YF-23, or any other operational stealth fighter could fly within 10-20km of a patriot and not get shot down, especially not without heavy jamming.
Would this be any different with an AWACS? That's brutal for how good the Eagle's radar is.
Now that was on my mind the whole time he flew over that patriot site. Its an up vote from me.
On that old Su-27 vs F22, the AWACS didn't help him, so...
@@cockatoo010🤣🤣🤣
To do what? Confirm the kill for the YF-23?
Good idea.
The lightning is an omen that DCS needs a English Electric Lightning module.
Yes!!
And can you imagine the differential thrust weirdness that would be going on :))
@@heathb4319 : Not sure that differential thrust would do anything in the Lightning with its over/under engines.
From what I have read the YF-22 was a less risky design, it was much further along in development and the Air Force was wary about giving Northrup contracts for both the B2 and the YF-23. The YF-23 was supposed to be substantially stealthier, faster and the second prototype had advanced GE adaptive cycle engines.
That's what I read as well, back in the day. Additionally, there was another Northrup project that had just been cancelled, and the government was worried that that cancellation might affect Northrup's ability to bring the -23 to production. I was disappointed that it all came down to politics rather than quantitative measurements.
Which is funny because today I now have worries about Lockheed getting too many contracts. It seems like everything with large bids goes to Lockheed. I’m almost certain they’ll win NGAD and FA-XX. And with HIMARS being presumably the dominant artillery system of the 21st century and also winning naval contracts with LCS you get towards a defense company too large for national security quite quickly.
At least Grumman got the B-21 but it seems like Boeing is getting pushed out of the military aircraft market. I guess they can get AWACS and refueling aircrafts only. But we seem to be rapidly approaching a two prime contractor environment where Lockheed builds fighters and Northrop builds bombers and that’s it.
@@caseychambers2693 Lockheed needs to be reigned in. The LCS was possibly the WORST weapons program EVER for the US Military. While the F-35 is AWESOME in a lot of areas the program itself is a total failure in terms of lead time and cost overruns. The Pentagon needs to write into its contracts that if there are manufacturing or design defects the CONTRACTOR is financially responsible for fixing it. Lockheed has a long history of over promising and under delivering.
Yep!! Pure politics over logical best practice and capability. It is shameful and I can only imagine how it has stunted technological advances with our fighters, weapon systems, and electronics over the years.
i just read that quote yesterday myself. Of course a plane is only 1/3 of the fight. the missles and pilot make alot of the difference. (though admittedly the Goodyear blimp with hypersoonic missles and maverick in the pilot seat would still not likely be a good candidate for an operation, unless of course your a big fan of the WWI zepplins. If thats the case then enjoy that little idea).
I want to see WW1 bomber Zeppelin vs F22 now. F22 being the natural enemy of the balloon.
i love the splat and abrupt voice stop when the pilot smacks the ground🤣
Some of the most consistent and good content i've seen in a long time.
Keep up the good work Sidewinder!
I saw the YF-23 slide in behind in the rear view mirror at 12:06 and 12:11 time mark and immediately thought, "oh no, deja vu".
Literally the best tactic Vs. the YF23 is fly high enough to have time to eject. LOL. Great vid.
I still have faith in the "wildly shoot AMRAAMs in a circle" tactic.
You tried to hide behind Moms apron but didn't realize he was already behind you . Great video . Keep up the good work . Thank you
Shooting Fox 3's
YF-23 at your 6, "Well, hello there"
GS :"Fox three.. Fox three.. Fox three.."
YF23 watching at GS six :"Da frak he doin ova der ?"
GS, ngl - that blimp quotation had me REALLY doubting your chances today...
...and then seconds later an out-of-the-blue missile alert! 😄
There has never been a more appropriate time to use the meme "why not both" lol. Seriously, the YF-23 is a beast.... and a very sexy beast at that!
GS, the man with the slowest reaction to eject after being shot down.
Could actually see him in the rear view mirror beforehand. Was like uh-oh, this about to end badly.
Post the time stamp bc I didn’t lol
@@workingonitsoon576start watching 12:20
Very interesting! Whereas the F-22's superiority over the F-15 is spread out "across the board", the YF-23's superiority is concentrated more in the "low observability" domain. Not that we have a whole lot of real-world data points to go by, but my initial impression after watching your two fights against the YF-23 is that the YF-23 is MORE dominant than the F-22 against 4th generation fighters, but head-to-head against another 5th generation fighter the F-22's superior maneuverability would give it the edge as the fight degrades to within visual range on approximately equal terms.
So does that YF-23 now have two blimp silhouettes stenciled below the canopy??
YF23 my beloved fighter, what a pleasant surprise! What a disrespectful kill at the end though😂. Thanks for these recent videos GS! Video suggestion: F23 + F15E combat mission together? Or can you fly the F23? That would be fun to watch!
I actually saw him in the rear view mirror before the red arrow pointed at it. I was practically yelling 'Check your six check your six!!'
Well you did better than a blimp since at least a blimp can't try to dodge and blind fire missiles back in the * suspected * direction of the enemy
Love the lightning effect in the background. It is like an omen of imminent death. It flashes and a few seconds later the F-15 is shot down.
This reminds me of the NGAD fights you had a while ago. Where the NGAD was basically playing chess while you were playing checkers. lol
Man i cant wait to see what the 2 NGAD lrpgrame produce. Especially since GE just announced their adaptive cycle engine. Speed+ceiling+range+stealth+sensors+
Please do more YF23 stuff! 🙏 It's amazing what this plane is capable of 😯
It was definitely the "Oh no , not again" for me 🤣😂💀. My boy had flashbacks of the other YF project creeping up on him .
I'd love to see videos using the F-15EX in tandem with the F-35. I'm really curious how tactics might play out.
Thank you for bringing attention to this weather mod - amazing!
I understand how the F-22 got chosen, it was more of a conventional fighter highly manoeuvrable and stealthy enough, but looking back the YF-23 was probably the one to choose, faster and even stealthier.
Pretty much. The 23 would also make a better strike aircraft as well.
It makes sense to choose it from a capability perspective but the people there chose the F-22 because Grumman was already working on the stealth bombers so they weren’t sure if Grumman can deliver it on time and on budget.
@@spitfire_flyer5659 And the ironic thing is that USAF ended up paying arm, leg and half the internal organs for all cost overruns of Lockheed's F-22 and F-35...
The lightning strike 13:00 before the kill was awesome! Great video we should have built that aircraft.
Maximum disrespect on kill #2. I love it.
I always preferred the F-23 to the -22 in the ATF program. Watching it appear out of nowhere for the rear-aspect gun kill was just incredible.
Lightening has a new meaning.; "You can't see me until I'm behind you. " or " by the time you hear the thunder, it's too late." Presentation just gets better and better. 8 hrs compressed in 13+ minutes ? If it was easy, it wouldn't look this good.
But damn, yf-23 is sort of surprising. I thought it looked delicate to harsh combat conditions. Raptor is a taunting, muscle flexin' beast.
GS not paying attention to the rear view mirror (again) :)) Only spotted the YF-23 the *fifth* time it appeared in the mirror :)) Spectacular video!
12:12: For a moment you can see the Yf-23 in the rear view mirror, when GS starts firing off AMRAAMs. I said that before I saw the arrow point to it for the second time, but it was there before.
That was very entertaining! Having seen some DCS videos of F-22 vs F-23, your F-15 had no chance with its RCS.
Reminds me of the time you were in the f-22 against a couple of flankers. Laughing while you came up from behind and gun them both. I guess this was payback.
12:10 "I don't see anything on the Horizon"
While you can see the YF-23 rolling up behind him on the rear mirror
Really sexy the way 2-3 Golf pulled right into the victory roll after the gun kill
I'm loving the YF-23 content. It's my favorite "fighter that never was"
Dude... can you do vids where you fly the YF-23?
I hope that performance convinces him to try. We all know GS loves to punk other jets with stealth.
That's a crack up. It's usually GS sneaking up on SU's. 360° missile shots and then gets smoked from behind. Not often you see that.
more like this please
when you're the under dog. even if you get smoked, even better content. actually great idea, a series " how/why i got killed"
That was one fast Goodyear Blimp that you were flying.
I wanna see this from the yf-23 perspective
I remember as a kid having the GI Joe Storm Eagle toy which was the YF-23.
After the first fight, I was thinking the YF23 should use those storms for cover and just slide in behind him. Aaand he's done.
The really funny moment when you said "I dont see anything on the horizon either"while that thing just standing there... menacingly... on your rear view mirror.😂😂😂
Bro, that ending was like a horror movie.
Big shoutout to the engineers... The YF-23 looks like an airship form another galaxy.
Man, the 23 was really playing with its food for the last round there.
Yeah he was wholesale slinging missiles into the Myst!😂 Good Fight GS.
Dont worry, GS. We all had flashbacks of the F-22 forming up on you as well.
F-22: "Ehhhh. Been there, done that. I snuck up and formed up on GS's left wing before he noticed me. All without firing a shot.😎
There were two prototypes made of the YF 23 a gray and a black. The gray one was called the gray ghost and the black one was called the black widow two.
That was great. 2-3 golf had to be having a great time playing with his food.
An OG GG twice splashed a GS on DCS.
That was fun to say out loud.
How the turntables.
Looking at all the new 5th gen fighters coming out, it actually seems like the f22 was a better long term decision, seeing as if you fight another stealth fighter, you could end up at the merge if neither can detect each other.
Yep; I Agree when you said... F22 Flashback. It's nice seeing you in the under dog position... this where you are the most creative.
F22 flashbacks... was thinking the exact same thing. That 23 is gonna do him dirty like the 22 :D
A friend introduced me to his kid, who flies F-35's out of Luke. He didn't go into any classified details, of course, but this is the first video I've seen that accurately depicts what it's like to fly against modern US stealth planes. He said something like "Imagine trying to fight another man, on a moonless night, with pistols and you have a flashlight and are wearing bright yellow while he has night vision goggles and is dressed all in black."
That lightning is pretty naff, but the rain storms look good
We need a F-22 vs a YF-23 video after seeing this. Can't believe you didn't pick up the YF -23 once on radar.
I saw the YF-23 at 12:11 and thought "oh god, GS he's doing your favourite thing" 😂
Rainbows and lighting…a perfect day for a flight sim ^^
That isn't lighting. That's the YF23 descending from the heavens to humble the mere mortals and their puny F15 Eagles.
The squish sound gets me every time!
Yea, that F15 felt like a Good Year Blimp alright!
Love how the F-23 brings the thunder and lightning when taking it’s kill!
The Air Force decided to opt for extra maneuverability over extra stealth (and speed). The maneuverability turns out to cost more air-speed than perhaps it's worth. Well, it was all new in those days so "live and learn", I guess. The F-22 is still the most awesome (operational) fighter aircraft the world has seen to date. Can't wait to see the NGAD and see the choices they've made for the future.
1:11 *GS laughs in F-15*
"...Hold this my dude."
5:46, One last lighting bolt for final disrespect. ⚡😂
12:48, Not once, but twice! 🤣
There is something cool about this here Jet. Stealth and speed.
He was on top of SAM system and they couldn't see him too. Gerat try by you GS. Thanks 😂
I’m still believing the yf-23 project is alive.
Back in the day, when the US had to choose between the YF22 and the YF23, who also was a big fan of the YF23?
Less manoeuvrability, but
* better stealth
* longer range
* faster super cruise
* higher top speed
The ultimate BVR fighter?
Can you imagine a bomber version of the Black Widow II...
Twice as many Aim-120 with stealth capabilities.
Supersonic fighter bomber is what Ameica's Air Force needs.
Lol the YF23 did the F22 thing on the SU27.
DAYUM this is like you are flying a Goodyear blip vs a F22 and the ejections in both rounds 🤣😁🤣
"I'm starting to feel like the Goodyear Blimp" hahahaha
Round 2 - the disrespect was next level 😂
Felt like playing Hide n Seek with someone who wears invisible blanket😅
I loved this video. I wish i could see more f23 fights. So disappointed they never did anything with it.
The tables turned from your last video
Well, the Black Widow is no Joke! Damn!!
The Goodyear Blimp had substantially longer loitering time than the F15.
DCS gods making the F-15 look Badass with the Thunder
GS must be hating stealth fighters so much now.
Haha! I thought i saw him in the mirror before you pointed it out, rewind 5 seconds.. yup.. theres a jet there for sure 😂
i wish you did a break down on how this happen that would be cool to see
F-35 vs the YF-23 could be an interesting battle!
Imagine if the YF-23 got picked instead of the YF-22, it would be absolutely undetectable
I would think the YF-23 and the F22 would complement each other nicely. Very close in mission profiles, but the F-22 could play the missile truck role in this case.
YF23 has always been my most favourite Military "WHAT IF" 😌❤️
Back In 2003 the f 22 faced Off againt 5 f 15's piloted by f 22 pilots all of them were shot down it was like clubbing baby seals.