What Canada Missed Out On: Find Out the Incredible Story Behind the Avro Arrow!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Check out more videos about the Arrow here:
• AVRO ARROW vs F 35 & F 18
The Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow was a late 1950's delta winged interceptor aircraft which incorporated design elements and performance far ahead of its time. Intended to serve as Canada's premiere fighter interceptor into the 1960s and beyond, and replace the CF100, the Arrow program was abruptly cancelled less than one year after its first flight, despite incorporating many advanced features including early fly by wire technology. A victim of bad timing due to the sputnik launch and politics, the demise of the Arrow forever altered the course of the Canadian Aerospace industry, and internationally scattered the talented individuals who worked on the project. Today we will look at the circumstances that spawned this incredible aircraft, it's performance, and lasting legacy, including its team members going on to work on the Gemini, Mercury, and Apollo programs.
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Avro Arrow RL204 Photo:
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Mirage IV photos:
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As a retired Canadian pilot, I'm still furious about the Arrow debacle, but this is one of the best videos I've ever seen on the subject. Very well done.
Thank you and very much appreciated!
Future generations of Canadians were cheated by the loss of the Arrow.
@@Joe-by8jh we lost the ability to make our own fighter jets now we only have second hand fighter jet.
@@Joe-by8jh The Bomarc Missiles that replaced the Arrow never worked and needed nuclear warheads to be effective. The Americans were willing to turn most of Northern Canada into a nuclear wasteland as part of NORAD's defense strategy. The cost of the Bomarc missile was higher than trying to finish the Arrow and deploying it. Lastly when compared to most of the other generation 3 fighters of that era, the Arrow would have out matched almost all of them. I think only the F-4 Phantom would beat the Arrow and that is only for speed.
@@ChairmanMo F-106 had comparable speed, a slightly higher service ceiling, almost twice the radius of action, was available four years earlier, and was several times cheaper
The worst part isn't the fact that the Arrow wasn't made, it's the fact that Canada then lost the ability to ever make such an advanced military aircraft ever again :(
the short sight of the conservative lost the chance of Canada being number one in the world then. so sad.
@@woody1-w2x
Doubtful.
There is little chance Avro Canada would've ever been on equal footing with giants like NAA, Convair, McDonnell, Republic, Douglas, etc.
The Arrow was a leading-edge design to be sure, but the age of the pure interceptor was already waning before the Arrow would've become operational in 1961-62.
Air forces wanted more versatility, hence the popularity of the F-4 and subsequent evolution toward the F-15, F-14, F-16, F-18, etc.
@@raynus1160 The main issue, is not, how well it would have been against US' made fighters in mock dog fights! But against the Russian, at least, if not Future Thereats, like maybe Chinese or North Korean! But 1 main enemy was Russia and not nessesary USA or any other country!
@@valko022
It wasn't designed for A2A combat with fighters - it was developed to shoot down Soviet bombers (specifically the Tu-16 and its follow-ons).
@@raynus1160 Yeah. True. God bless you so. God loves you so and so am I with the love of His' = Jesus Christ (of Nazareth) = Yahushua / Yehushua ha Mashiach. : )
My Dad worked on the Arrow back in the 50's. He's 91 now and we took him to see the Arrow replica last summer. Told us how crushed everyone was when it was cancelled. Diefenbaker didn't just kill the program, he erased it from history. He'll be forever remembered as Canada's biggest tool.
did you mean to say fool?
Was your Dad crushed , because it was scrapped or because he was out of a job ?
I think Tru-dolt will take that prize with Diefenbaker a distant 2nd.
The arrow was a big lose to airplane world in general . But the story is not the only one like . Over here in the UK we had the Tsr 2 and that was cancelled and the tooling was scrapped like arrow
not a chance in hell your probably far to young to have a clue@@Redhotlugnut
Just like TSR-2.
An aircraft has 4 dimensions, length, wingspan, height and politics.
Just like TSR-2, an air force toy in the first place.
TSR 2 was an engineering disaster nothing more than a compassion bubble. 4 prototypes were built, 3 permanently grounded due to technical problems. Too late in conception and development,vastly overbudget and then the shocking news that it would not even meet its design specification.. Canceled by Wilson government before anymore money was lost
Three dimensions are created by engineers and one by political filth, scum!
Such a sad story and tragic ending to what would have been a great pride for all us Canadians.
Now as a Canadian I hate the usa for what they did there
Canadian goverment has no bals and is like sheep. Sad to say.Just look what is going on today.
@@Joe-by8jh why are u saying that it was obsolete when at the time it was not obsolete
@@gomax6676 what does the USA have to do with the arrow ? it was your own government. or you're saying that the US built the arrow for canada ?
@@ChristIsKing4ever-l9w basically what happened is that the canadian prime minister canceled the project for many reason and one is that the U.S told us that interceptors were becomming obsoletes and that's it I'm not blaming the U.S for canceling the project I'm blaming them for the contribution they had in ending the project
This might be your best video yet.
Thank you! I spent a month on it and took my time, I appreciate your feedback.
@@PilotPhotog Keep up the great work. Your production value alone will help you rise above the clouds or at least the other TH-cam channels. I’ve been subscribe since the first video I watched of yours.
@@ChrisShelton024 thank you and I appreciate your subscription!
It is sad that the Arrow was cancelled and brought down the Canadian Aerospace industry with it. It was visually and apparently functionally ahead of its time.
It absolutely looks like a contemporary of 1970s jets to me, a shoulder winged counterpart to the Mirage
@@Omniseed A fighter too big, and probably not sturdy enough to do low level strike. It would not have lasted a decade in service before it uselessness would have been proven to all
@@Omniseed
The Mirage III first flew in 1956 and entered service in 1961.
Deltas were very much a contemporary 1950's design (Convair, Douglas, Avro, Avro Canada, Gloster, Saab, Dassault, MiG, etc.)
The Canadian aviation industry was doing just fine until the last few years with US tarrifs and COVID-19.
Aviation is far more than runaway defence spending that even the Americans are having trouble swallowing the bills for the F-35.
@@Bartonovich52 name a tier one Canadian company that was doing well before covid
You did a great job on this. I am always a proud Canadian when I hear about the arrow and prouder still when I think that my grandfather worked on this project. I can tell you with 💯% certainty that not all drafts were destroyed.
As a Canadian all I can say is F'n Diefenbaker!!!
If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.
Yes 👍 he wanted to build nucke but pressure was too much 4 himself
That's Goofenbaker!
As an airplane enthusiast all I can say is F'n Diefenbaker!!!
It's good to see that tempers are still flaring after all this time. But it's too easy to blame the last link in the chain (ie. Diefenbaker) for what happened. It was a textbook case of what happens when bureaucrats and politicians and competing interests in allied countries create a perfect storm that even the technological prowess of the Arrow could not overcome.
I personally believe that the human resources to resurrect the Canadian aerospace industry does exist, but such an industry cannot be beholden to government contracts and regulation. It must be allowed to be more free market. Only then does it have a chance at re-establishing itself.
OMG. Thank you so much for this. You made this canuck very happy - Bonus - most of the avro engineers went on to help in the Apollo missions. 🇨🇦
Glad you enjoyed it!
I worked at the Canadian Aviation museum which had the Orenda engine on display. I was a security guard. The guys who had worked on the Arrow were always obvious. They would walk up to that engine and grieve. They were grown men who had had the hearts pulled out of them by the Diefenbaker government. I just left them alone. Perhaps the best lesson to come from the Arrow is that Canadians working by themselves, can achieve what other nations can only envy. I've always found it odd that we don't produce our own automobiles, aircraft and assorted world class weaponry. My father was a test engineer for RCEME and he was not an Arrow fan. He did however mention the Bras D'or with pride. He said that it would have rendered, when used with hydrophone tech, nuclear submarines obsolete. It was also cancelled. Dad had seen the Arrow fly and noted that if the pilot made an error over Toronto, he'd be past North Bay before his correction would be noticed. It should also be noted that Canadian armed forces are notorious for understating the abilities of their systems. Understandably so, but it makes me wonder what the Arrow and the Bras D'or could have actually done. Remember the words of Churchill when he said he could rule the world if he had among others, Canadian soldiers. It's a national unstated rule that we denigrate ourselves and our accomplishments, but take a good look at what we can do. Take a really close look. No, our flag is not the enemies' flag of surrender dipped in their blood, but as our enemies have discovered, we are The Free Canadians.
The Yanks bought the Bras D'or and renamed it. Still using it, I think.
@@airborne63 last I heard, the hull was in a museum someplace. Dad said the sponsons for the hydrofoils had microcracks in them. They were made of cast magnesium (?) and it was a barrier that they just couldn't cross. He saw the Bras D'Or in Halifax harbour and said he thought it was doing about 70 knots. I don't remember much else of what he told me. Much of his work was classified.
We don't even produce our own gasoline it's all shipped to Texas and we buy it back at crazy high prices. Maybe if Canada could manufacture our own goods and services we would not be broke and have more jobs. Instead we rely on the USA to supply us with everything we need to live and gas for our vehicles to move.
This is a severely underrated and deserves to be known by much more people
Those are so damn good CGI renders! love the details on the model, just gotta add some clouds and afterburner effects to raise the production value fantastic work!
Thank you! I do plan on learning how to render clouds and 'burner effects - stay tuned!
Oh yeah! I’ve been waiting for this episode. By the way, the graphics are outstanding 💯👍💯
Glad you like them!
I love how when the graphics became that the first aircraft was the YF-23 if there was any aircraft up to discussion it would always be the YF-23
I can see why
I love it and I wish they chosen both aircraft to go into service with redesigning the YF-23 to be a strike air to ground aircraft
MY LORD what a beautiful design. Brings tears to my eyes!
My Dad worked for MacDonald Douglas for 30+ years...he was so angry about this project. He saw welders in cutting up every jig, die and every drawing involved destroyed. Its sad seeing what’s left of the facility - just an empty parking lot. Such memories of seeing him walk out of the security gate. My Dad passed 3 years ago and I have his picture of the Aero in my billiards room now. Great video...thanks for posting
The aircraft that should’ve been protecting North America for decades. Canada’s loss was NASA’s gain when all those talented engineers went to work for NASA. What a shame, that aircraft was a beauty.
Protecting against what threat? ICBMs? The Russians understood early that flying bombers over the arctic was not the most effective solution. Spending billions in 50s dollars to develop a weapon to protect against the occasional Bear/Bison flight off the coasts would have been ridiculous. Canada had other commitments within NATO in Europe that the Arrow was completely ill suited for. Aircraft technology was changing at a furious pace in 1958/59. Multi-role fighters were the future. The Arrow was not.
The Arrow was a F106 on steroids with no mission. F106 initial orders were cut by over 60%. Canada should have bought F4s. Enough said.
@@ericb.4914 the Arrow was overrated by a mile.
that is false
@@bjjace1 No it was not over rated it just ended up a plane without a perceived mission. But it could have easily done strike missions that the F104's were later bought for.
@@Joe-by8jh you do not have a clue. The arrow was fly by wire and years ahead of any contemporary design. So joe go stick your head up your ass.
In my personal, non biased opinion. This is hands down the best Arrow video on TH-cam that I've come across. The fact I got chills at the end of the video says a lot.
Shout out to Breedlejuice for going out to Malton for some shots. 🤙🤙
Thank you Six and your ongoing support speaks volumes. That was awesome of Breedlejuice to get those Malton pics!
@@molnibalage83 Show me a video better than this. Good luck, I'll wait. For the record, if you don't like it move on.
This is a video documentary about a fighter jet you’re not allowed to make me feel emotional 😣
Great video.
Thank you and the more I researched about the airplane, the more I admired it
My Father worked at Orenda, he was a draftsman and helped finalize the blueprints for the turbine blades on the Iroquois engines. When the layoffs were announced, people were in shock, my older sister remembers Mothers on the street crying and consoling each other. I still have a sample section of the turbo fan blades, the tolerances are incredible considering this was before CNC matching.
One of the best arrow videos I've ever seen. And even learned something new about the engine testing that I've never heard before. I've also read that Lockheed secretly bought the plans of the arrow and Avrow's titanium business to help with the production of their blackbird.
Would love to see you do a video on Avrow's jet liner. Kind of good little story there too.
Thank you and glad you enjoyed the video - I will see what I can dig up on the Avro jet liner. Thanks for commenting!
" I've also read that Lockheed secretly bought the plans of the arrow and Avrow's titanium business to help with the production of their blackbird. " That's nonsense and utter horsecrap.
@@FIREBRAND38 please enlighten me with your vast knowledge on why that was horse crap.
@@chm985 Please provide me with proof that the ghost of Stalin didn't send the Arrow back in time to help him kill the dinosaurs.
@@simonouellet2215 🙄
I pass that sign everyday on the way to work. "Home of the Avro Arrow" now I know the history and significance behind it. Respect.
Definitely a big what if? One can only really imagine where Canada would be if the program never got cancelled.
Canada really is a great nation of innovation we have given so much to the world.
My personal favorites your Canada dry Ginger ale and Corner Gas thanks from Australia🤗
And had so much "stolen" by US interests...
The telephone and peanut butter are pretty good too.😊
"we have given so much to the world"
Yup. Canada has changed the world irrevocably,by giving the world Canadian Bacon. Well done!!!
@@bjjace1 As a Canadian I have never seen "Canadian bacon" except in the states, so I'm guessing they invented that one.😊✌
Great video with great information as always. I had suggested this one a while ago , very pleased you decided to make it. My great grandfather worked on the Arrow as an electrical engineer. I grew up just down the road from Trenton Airbase where is was tested as well. As an aviation enthusiast the cancellation of the Arrow still makes me and many Canadians close to tears. Although all of the planes were cut up and destroyed many Canadians to this day still believe that there is a complete Arrow intact and hidden some where is a hanger. A large nose section of of number 206 is all we know for sure that exists. It is at The Canada Aviation and Space Museum in Ottawa. Recently a private collector is known to have an ejection seat from an Arrow, further fueling rumours of a hidden Arrow!
Thank you and thanks for suggesting this topic! Your great grandfather must have had some amazing stories to tell...regarding a still intact Arrow - my best guess would be numbers 207-209 which were as much as 91% completed and could have been candidates for "saving" an example. We may never know but it is very intriguing.
I'm pretty sure there is no unknown Arrow. The Americans where very afraid of this jet but most importantly afraid Russia would steal the tech. They had no confidence Canada could hide it, everything was destroyed. There is one out, the British owned Hawker Siddeley Canada came out of nowhere in the early 60's with the TS-2, the Arrow plans may exist.
The Avro jet liner was the best for it's day .
Technically, the Comet was larger and more advanced, cabin window structure aside.
I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Jan Żurakowski on several occasions. To say that he was an amazing person would be a huge understatement. His last words to me were “see you next time” as he walked towards his house by the Arrow Road. RIP Mr. Jan__
That was a tear jerking ending... thank you
Thank you I am glad you enjoyed it - and I appreciate you commenting
John Diefenbaker was short sighted and with no sence of business. None. This is one major gaffe. It still resonates to this very day. We finally ended up with the F 101 and F 104. Ridiculous...
Way better. Cost less. Had longer service lives. Were more versatile.
Since Canada was ahead in terms of ingenenenty at the time, I really believe it could have been the Canadian space shuttle landing on the Moon. We always get screwed. By our useless politicians. They never see the bigger picture. Now Canada has lost thousands of talented individuals going all over the world, but Canada.
Canada could've just take some Phantoms instead of Starfighters and have a mixed fleet of F4s and F5s.
USED F-101s and used F-104s is what I have read
@@ronschock6545 Fact is Canada lost a cutting edge jet replaced with cast off US planes. A complete aero space industry along with the 20,000 jobs that industry supported. With the best and brightest of the newly unemployed leaving the country. Starting as little as 50 years later Canada finds the cost to replace [and fly] US jets prohibitive at best. IMO it would be a benefit to Canada to build in country and not rely on the an ever unreliable US military complex that is based around an open check book . Not having that manufacturing capacity is a loss of sovereignty....period
Nothing can beat an Arrow . The C F - 105 Avro Arrow Will live in the hearts of those knew her ♥ and have the knowledge of this fantastic jet fighter . Built by Canadians for Canada 🇨🇦 .
Dude, holycrap... can't believe I hadn't watched this one until now. Storytelling at its finest, Photog, great job!
Want a mach 2.3 interceptor with 900+ km range on internal fuel, internal weapons bay, and a 17000 m ceiling. The F106 first flown in Dec. 1956 in service 1959, F106 was there.
But a single engine only back when this was a important factor to consider.
My Grandfather was president of the Union for the Arrow.Always enjoyed his stories.
There were a few things about the cancellation of the Arrow and Iroquois engines. Louis St. Laurant said that even if he and the Liberals had been elected again in 1956, they would've cancelled the program too. The thing is, despite the costs, the funding was only coming from the military budget, so only the RCN and army would've been affected and not gotten new equipment until later. Another was something they discussed on CBC back in 1997 after the miniseries aired for the first time. Back then when countries were developing new aircraft and other military projects, they funded them on their own. Not like today when a group of countries get together and provide funding for such a project. That system just didn't exist at the time. Too bad. Considering the UK was interested as well as the USA, they could've also provided funding for the project. The French too, were interested in Iroquois engines. Another problem was that Canada didn't even have much of an aircraft industry at all until World War 2. It was mainly the British who made sure we had one because they came up with what's called Shadow Manufacturing if I remember correctly. This was why AVRO was building and shipping Lancaster bombers to the UK during the war. AVRO wasn't officially established until 1946 however. A series of mistakes made was AVRO having to cancel the Jetliner program. They only ever built and tested one and it could've been sold all over the world while competing with the British Comet, the world's first jetliner. John Diefenbaker and the Canadian government at the time were clearly not military strategists. Those Bomarc missiles they bought from the USA were scrapped after being proven faulty, which took them long enough. The USA cancelled them too. And despite that anti-aircraft missiles were developed and deployed in World War 2, the Germans were the first to use them, but there was a problem with them. Even in the 50s and 60s, the technology was too young, it just wasn't there yet and it wasn't reliable enough. They were jumping to conclusions that the Soviets had these giant missiles to launch spacecraft, along with the ability to make a nuclear strike. That too was still a young technology and the Soviets had not yet established a ballistic missile industry. This would be why they were still producing plenty of bombers. Even today, heavy bombers are still used. The B52 for one. Also the B2 Stealth bomber. Fighter/Bombers like the F15, F22 and F35 are still widely used because they can attack targets that are too far for cruise missiles to hit, despite that they need aerial refuelling more than once during each mission. Another example of how the Arrow would be more helpful. That and the Arrow only being an interceptor is ridiculous. It was more versatile than people think. Considering its range and weapon capacity, it seems with a little more development, it could've been used for ground attacks too. Its speed and service ceiling would've been suitable for hit-and-run missions on enemy bases. Put simply, it could've been used as a Fighter/Bomber. That and it could've been used for reconnaissance and even as a spy plane, considering how high it could go. Also, its service ceiling would've made it useful for keeping enemy spy planes out of our airspace.
Great video. We can thank Diefenbaker for it's demise.
Was in a semi private room in 2005 and shared it with a 69 year old gent (Jim) that was 15 years old working in the warehouse during the build of the Arrow and was laid of after the project was shut down. He was recalled to help in the warehouse and saw all those Beautiful birds being cut up and was saddened by what was going on. He had many tales to tell.
Thanks for this wonderful reminder of our talents here. 🇨🇦
At my local flight museum we have one of the windshield panels of the Arrow on display
Bravo! I do believe you have created the most accurate short documentary of the Arrow that I have seen to date. Thank you @pilotphotog. You and your team have done well.
@@molnibalage83 you are comparing different generation and different design purpose aircraft. None of what you say applies. Good day
@@molnibalage83 one question: What Soviet threat is still around?
@@molnibalage83 (knowing you are googling) The answer is the Tu-95.
Enough of the ignorance. Read a book.
@@molnibalage83 typical. You missed all of the context of the documentary and that of my reply of the exact thing the Arrow was designed to take on. The Bear is still flying and is still a very effective nuclear bomber.
The point is, we were the leading edge of aeronautical engineering and made massive gains in technology that the world would benefit from.
Thank you very much - BTW this is a one person operation - I do all of this on my own, which is why I don't release videos as frequently as other channels, but I do the best i can. Again my thanks
very sad story... when I first heard about this jet, I instantly fell in love with it, basically a gen 4 fighter in the 1950s, americans and russians never even came close till the 70's
Over 60 years later... we STILL have manned fighter-bombers.... go figure... Not to mention that the Arrow never flew with the PS.13 Iroquois engine... the next one off the line WOULD have...
Pity it was never built and further developed, such a sexy aircraft.
Indeed and thanks for commenting!
I saw fan art of the arrow being 5th generation with stealth and I tell you this
That art is more sexy than the actual thing
Epic Work! I think this might be your best video to date Photog
Wow, thank you and much appreciated! I kind of had to learn 3D modelling/animation since there wasn't much usable footage of the Arrow. Glad you enjoyed the video.
Wonderful video I think the Arrow is a beautiful aircraft
Thank you for the two likes and the Arrow should be in the war thunder
The Arrow is my fav plane ever! Thank you for the video!
the funds got diverted to the WE Charity
It was a Conservative government that scrapped the project. It was introduced under the Liberals
@@rmelo5932 If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.
A Canadian creation Beauty, proud for ever, a classic bird!!
The US just couldn’t have Canada producing superior aircraft.
They had the F-106 which was faster and in actually in service by June 1959. Brits had the English Electric Lightning which was in service and faster by December on 1959. there wasn't anything that exceptional about the Arrow and the bomber interception mission it was built for wasnt the biggest concern before development ended
@@simonouellet2215 Simon. If that is correct why did the Americans demand that not only did the planes need to be destroyed but also all of the design informatiom? Even more strange Canada had orders from France for several of the engines and the Americans required the orders be cancelled and that we never make the engines in the future. Doesn't that seem strange if the it was a really, really average aircraft as you claim?
@@bobcrane9945 France never ended up building the bigger Mirage IVB bomber, plus they dropped the Iroquois from consideration in 1958 because even at that point the Arrow program looked to be on the chopping block. The de Havilland Gyron was a contemporary engine that slightly surpassed the Iroquois's performance but it got cancelled too when the UK gov saw that it was a stupid waste of money. Nobody was buying them or the giant mach 2+ interceptors/bombers they would power. the US had their own and the Soviet Union would too very shortly. The Cold War paranoia was in effect, remember. Nobody was buying the arrow or engine, the military evaluations were not particularly kind and the RCMP saw commie spies everywhere. So the Government destroyed the remnants of the project and from there the legend grew and grew and now it's an article of faith that the Arrow would beat an X-Wing and an F-35 at the same time.
@@simonouellet2215 Thank you for responding but if the plane was as useless and unmarketable as you say why would the "commie spie" possibly want to steal the plans?
@Olivier Theriault ????
Great short video on the Arrow. Ive been obsessed with it since i was about 10 in 1980. My father borrowed a book from the library called “there never was an Arrow” written by E.K. Shaw, a female engineer at Avro Canada. It caught my attention because of just how angry it made my father. His rants were legendary but they peaked with the Arrow and that book. It delves into both the technical side and the political side, and the political side was hard to read without making me wish i could have a few minutes with Diefenbaker alone. I have read and watched every thing i could find on the Arrow all my life, but i have never been able to finish more than about half of “their never was an arrow” after multiple attempts. I just have to stop to keep sane.
I am glad you enjoyed the Arrow video and let's just say it will be making another appearance on this channel soon - stay tuned!
The engine was the "Iroquois"...not the "Iriquois"! Great video!
Thanks for the info!
Delta Wing looks so cool.
There was no conspiracy by the Americans to pressure the cancellation of the Avro Arrow as the Canadian fanboys seem to suggest.
There were two primary reasons:
1) The Soviets were getting away from long range bombers and investing heavily in ballistic missiles and the needs of a high speed interceptor became less.
2) This video explained it well. The leading edge tech and heavy use of premium material made the plane too expensive.
The Canadian government proved to be correct in cancelling the Arrow as dedicated platforms were soon to be a thing of the past and multi-role fighters became the norm to save money.
In fact at about 3 million + each, turns out that during its expected lifetime, the price would end up being extremely inexpensive; obviously a lack of political foresight, imo.
Thank you for such a great video. You make a Canadian proud and sad at the same time.
Thank you and thank you - the Arrow was/is an amazing aircraft
I genuinely hope the arrow comes back, knowing your airplane is a homegrown design is a great morale boost, and I’m sure there are still some bits of plans left of the thing, maybe somewhere France still has a copy of those engines
The killing of the C-102 Jetliner didn't help either.
Sid Kahn.
I did preliminary planning of the control surfaces while working for consulting engineers, and later worked for Orenda Engines, in Experimental Blade planning and development. Three months before we were redundant, 6 planners in my department were invited to dinner at the Royal York Hotel in Toronto,by Boeing Aircraft, and offered jobs, twice the salary, all expenses to move our families to California, and a new home in a new subdivision. One of our team made the change. The deal with Diefenbaker was made many months before Avro closed in 1959. The Iriquois engine had 20,000 pounds of thrust, 10,000 pounds more than the best engine in the U. S. Canada could have been the largest manufacturer of aircraft in the world. In one day, 14,000 people were redundant, 40,000 people working for sub contractors were also redundant. A black day in Canada.
Fantastic animations and information in this one. Thank you so much!
Thank you, glad you enjoyed the animations!
The front of a F4 phantom, the middle of a Mirage IV, the rear of a A5 Vigilante ^^
Correction the phantom has the front of the earlier, ahead of its time, arrow and so on..............
You did 🇨🇦 well with this one. Fantastic job 👏
These are great videos, but the day glow red and white scheme was just used on the prototypes. In service CF 105's would have been natural metal or light gray.
Indeed and thanks for commenting - I just wanted to show RL-201 through 206 flying. I may do an update video sometime where I show what an RCAF Arrow would have looked like - and I will start working on the photoshop skins used in the 3d model.
The real sick part was that the Arrow of then is still faster and more combat able then the CF 18 and with a few redesigns would be among the top 3 in the world .
I'm one of the tens of thousands of aerospace enthusiasts who wonder what role the United States played in snuffing not only the program but also the years of research, planning, and development of such a revolutionary aircraft. The powers that be erased everything but the memories. The program and the plane deserved a more honorable ending.
I'm one of the aerospace enthusiasts who wonders why the US is suspected of playing any role in the "snuffing" of a program that 1) they had actually supported and 2) stood to benefit from by being the supplier of missiles and electronics. In developing Arrow, Canada made use of American windtunnels and telemetry equipment, and had the use of American engines. An American B-47 was even loaned to Canada to test fly the Orenda engine, the same engine that Canada never got around to flying an Arrow...or any other airplane. Americans even assisted in training Canada's test pilots. America had absoliutely nothing to fear from an airplane that was no faster or longer ranged - or carried the same weapons - as airplanes already flown by the US (and other countries). The F-4 Phantom, already developed, matched or surpassed the Arrow in any number of areas, and was cheaper. Arrow was an airplane that nobody really wanted, or could afford. Canada could barely afford to develop it, and after nearly a year of testing, loggged only about 70 flight horus among 5 planes.
But somehow, this was America's fault becaus eof...reasons?
@@winternow2242 It's refreshing to know that we share the same opinion on issues like this.👍
Another awesome video . We'll done bro . 👊
RL206 was never in the line up of arrows that were dismantled and infact went missing. On the morning the Arrow's were to be dismantled Orangeville Ontario and Fort Drum in NY state were woken up to a supersonic boom
And it still flies. Though it's likely very secret of where it goes. I worked met section in the early 1990s, and was stationed at CFB Greenwood. RL206 made "an appearance" at an air show briefly that year. Never heard or seen it since, but it seems likely that it would continue showing up from time to time.
@Tulock the Werewolf that was a model that was put in the nose of a rocket for flight testing and fired over lake ontario
Cool your conspirasy jets. No working Arrow's survived. There are no working Arrow's hiding in Area 51. You can't just hop in and steal an aircraft without anyone noticing. It is not a shopping cart.
@@rmelo5932 then explain the supersonic boom heard over Orangeville and Fort Drum that morning? Explain the fact that there are pictures of all the other Arrows being dismantled but not 1 of RL206 being dismantled? Explain the word of those who did the dismantling saying that RL206 was missing the day they showed up to start dismantling it? Explain why the airframe of the SR-71 is almost a carbon copy of the Arrow?
These are known facts not conspiracy theories. There are also many books on the subject written by those who were there.
Explain how the nose of RL-206 is in the National Aviation Museum in Ottawa?
My dad worked there and watched the awesome flight demonstration .. and along with the hundreds of employees, he lost his job when the Arrow was canceled..
I am sorry to hear that, thank you for sharing and the Arrow must have been an amazing site to see in person.
@@PilotPhotog Yes.. he was totally amazed to see the Arrow fly straight up and disappear... talked about that historical event quite a lot
Thanks for mentioning the area rule. Was wondering it had been designed that way. Sounds just a few tweaks were added based on wind tunnel tests.
Best videos I've ever seen on the Avro Arrow. Great job
This would have been the premier interceptor of it's day. In the movie about the Arrow, the head of Avro, (portrayed by Dan Akroyd) tells Deifenbaker, "It's people like you that keep Canada from being great." I swear, politicians exist to F things up.
So! Where are the 4 AVRO Arrows? I would be wonderful to see them! As Well Flying!
The flying aircraft were all cut up with cutting torches and sent to scrap. Only the cone section of one was managed to be saved it's in the Canadian Aviation Museum. The UK offered to buy the finished ones for research but were refused. Cries of coverup - imagine the embarrassment if UK then copied and produced them.
They were cut up but the scap was taken the usa where they studied and many of the ideas ended up in the next generation American fighter jets
It's crazy how much progress in aviation was made in the 20yrs after the end of WW2. So many of the aircraft designed in that time are still in active service today.
I took some pictures of the old Avro building (in its last days it was Magellan Aerospace) just before they tore it down last year, for my own interest, a piece of history lost forever, from a better time.
Sad day for sure, I knew 2 people that work on the Avro Arrow and were mired into a deep depression afterwards that they never recovered from.
I saw it fly ! ORANGEVILLE ONT on my way back from hunting on my way home in a clear blue sky on its approach into Malton Ont. Hundreds in the town lost their jobs and the next time Diefenbaker came through town on a train campaigning he was greeted with thousands of snow balls and left.
l d like to say thank for this video ,you did a good job of it along with all the details you included .
Cancelling this beauty is the biggest mistake the Canadian government ever made. It would still be one of the top fighters in the world today, even without upgrades beyond the original 2 engine designs.
If the CF-18 ia anything to go by, the RCAF would still be flying them....
@@vonpredator we'd probably be at "Arrow Mk XXVII" it would be a Canadian Spitfire complete with an infinite list of variants!
@@molnibalage83 first, it already had been planned to carry ordinance other than missiles so it was already (in a limited capacity) planned to be a multi purpose aircraft. Also, the F-4 was planned to use the same crappy missiles but they changed it to use different ones, why would Canada not be able to do the same? With the high cost, anything you build in limited production is going to be far more expensive than the rest once you begin mass production, also there were several countries with very deep pockets who were interested in purchasing the plane and would have loved to buy them once they realized there would still be a use for fighter aircraft and the Arrow had been upgraded to use better weapons and to have better engines (Imagine if it had the same or better engines than the phantom).
Also, do you just like trying to kill other people's fun?
@@hefish Exactly my thinking. As I said, the ORIGINAL variant could still take on fighters today in some aspects. Never said we’d still be flying that variant. The rate they were developing it, chances are a 5th or even 6th gen fighter would be out, or at least being prototyped, now. Want proof? Just look at the programs that the very people who designed the arrow went on to work on and create. The cost would’ve easily been absorbed with foreign orders, same as they’re doing with the money-pit F35.
I was borned february 20th 1959 around 11 am while the cancelation of the Arrrow was announced , I made a career in Aviation and still sad about this oportunity being the world lead in aviation was missed, just lately Bombardier did similar flaw by giving away the 'C' Serie to another country, scheme on us we miss the boat twice to be a leader in aviation
If COVID 19 has taught us anything it is that in Canada we need to make/build our own thing, not be dependent on our being able to purchase what others make. It is time to build an updated version of this interceptor. We must also recognize that Canada needs interceptors more than fighters. The nature of our vast thinly populated nation. We need all political parties, for once to put aside their differences, and support the building of a new arrow interceptor. What a wonderful way to write a post script to the Corona Virus era.
Excellent digest doc.
Without any doubt the world would be very different had the arrow been allowed to be produced.
Excellent factual discussion of the Arrow Programme. If you follow sci-fi shows, you'll know that Season 4 of For All Mankind opened with a quick mention that Canada, in FAM's alternative history, in 2003 declined to join the 'M7 Group' of countries collaborating on development of a Mars base. My guess is that the writers are going to revisit the long-simmering Canadian resentment over the whole Arrow debacle and use this to find a way to slingshot Canada's aerospace industry in the early 2000s (again, in the alternative world of FAM, which began with the Soviets becoming the first to land on the Moon in 1969, not the Americans), probably by sharing technical expertise with the Chinese and using Chinese labour to develop their own commercial asteroid industry. That's just my guess after seeing only the first episode of the 4th season. We shall see!
Avro had many projects that were ahead of time...
This video reminded me of the swiss P-16 and N-20 projects. Switzerland bought the Hawker Hunter instead - but both projects had MANY advantages over existing planes; the P-16s wing as an eg was later used as wing for the Learjet; the N20 would have been a revolution in its time, too...
(somehow, the storys are similar all over the planet. As if they weren't so "independent" or "natural in their cause" as they're believed to be ;) (like both Austrias and Switzerlands decissions against the Gripen, where "independent Experts" from university of Hamburg (== EADS financed) said the Gripen being the wrong choice) ;)
Are there still plans to revive the arrow
Should Canadians know about the cost to build it or keep it a secret?
This was a plane without a mission; to counter a threat that did not exist. It was an interceptor, much like the cancelled US projects F-103, F-108 and the sub-optimal F-102. The argument that it destroyed home grown aviation in Canada is, sad though it may be, not supported by facts. E.g. the A220 is currently the largest selling Airbus. The Arrow, was behind schedule, over budget and needed US assistance to complete its weapons systems. The cost problem was exacerbated by the lack of interest from other Commonwealth countries as well as the UK. Canada made the correct decision to cancel.
When we threw out the Arrow, we didn't just throw out a plane, but Canada's sovereignty and future.
My dad worked on the engine, took me to the roll out what a devastating decision for Canadian aerospace. Still the control artificial feel system is used today in a lot of transport aircraft. It felt very real to me in the aircraft I flew.
Fun fact - the funds saved by canceling the arrow was used to build a God damn nuclear bunker.
I wasn't a fighter. It was an interceptor. Big difference.
Yup, Canada's scientists went on to work on major Nasa Missions, build space shuttles, make the Concord, and get employed by Boeing etc.. We ended up helping prop up US Aerospace tech rather than
leading the world in it in our own country.
Some Canadians (and i say this as a Canadian) are completely delusion when it comes to the Arrow's capabilities and the technology behind it. Like there were people seriously suggesting that instead of the F-35 or Super Hornet we should revive the Arrow. IIRC there was even a semi-popular novel series where the prototype wasn't really destroyed but used for super top secret missions.
Agree. Much of the the aircraft was simply theoretical. It all looked great on paper but was still untested.
Read The Arrow by T.J.F Levesedge, pilots flight manual and declassified flight test data.
A Wonderful video. Sad but wonderful
Glad you enjoyed it and thank you
Give me a break its Diefen"baker" not Diefen"backer" - other than that, pretty good video. And it was a production Aircraft, all of the aircraft came off the production line.
Yeah I did pronounce it "baker" twice by mistake - and production meant full scale operations with dozens and possibly hundreds of examples being built - thanks for commenting!
@@PilotPhotog you mispronounced it 3 times actually ... and there were 37 planes on the line on cancellation day , that was full production at the time ... the method of production and development made them all PRODUCTION aircraft .... none were prototypes ... thats whey they did 5 years of model testing and wind tunnels
what wasnt done was none of the aircraft were bought ...
the build method plan was to adjust the line as testing required changes be made ... that is the glory of that method ... all changes went direct to the production line and the line was built as the first plane was built ... this design process was chosen because it cuts aircraft development time in almost half from first concept ... to prototypes to first production ... they cut out the prototype stage and cut off 2 to 5 years of development
1 - When working in aerospace in the early 1980's I described the Arrow's details, as known at that time at lunch break to a coworker who had worked at White Sands missile range. His previous work in crossed paths with SR71 people who told him of a predecessor aircraft built with titanium and massively powerful engines. His reaction to my description of the Arrow was that the data matched the what they had said about this 1950's plane which could not be named even at his clearance level.
This was an interesting comment since he said I had given him the answer to why his deep knowledge of US military aerospace had failed to identify the aircraft that had been alluded to.
2 - A second part of the story came with the post 2000 return to Canada by Rolls Royce of the missing Orenda Iroquois engine. With the tacit admission that the RR Olympus 593 that powered the Concorde borrowed heavily from that Iroquois that was spirited out of Canada to save the technology from destruction.
3 - It had Internal weapons bay
4 - A revolutionary early computer stability 9 what today is called fly-by =-wire )flight control
5 - A early version of Look Down Shoot down radar.
So this Canadian design did better than a Hockey Hat Trick of three goals in one game.
I believe was a result of the confluence of WW2 internal Canadian capabilities with movement of British engineers away from the bombing during the war.
Then post war DPs ( Displaced Persons ) from all over Europe . There were many who came to Canada because the Red Scare of Senator McCarthy made soo many who fled the Russians Communist Tyranny unable to enter the USA because they had been born in countries now controlled by Russia.
Test Pilot Janusz Żurakowski was Polish Pilot Air Force who fought and damaged German bombers in an outmoded PLZ P17 open cockpit armed trainer. He then escaped to England where in a Spitfire he shoot down a Bf110 twin bomber then 2 deadly Bf 109E German fighters during the battle of Britain. after the war the Russians REFUSED to let these brave fierce pilots return to Poland , so he continued service in the RAF and England as a test pilot of the new jet aircraft. It is known in Canada that the US complained about "all these engineers and pilots with ----- communist Ties" .
'Tog, you really made me well up a bit with this video. Tip of the hat, sir.
As for the "What Ifs:"
The MkII would have been retired in the 80s, of that I have no doubt. Odds are good those airframes would have been worn right out. But by keeping that engineering and manufacturing ability in Canada, we'd probably be on the CF-107 or 108 by now, and I would hazard a guess it would have looked like the Typhoon/Rafale/Gripen. It's also quite possible that it could look more akin to the F-22 or F-35, or somewhere in between. Advanced systems, steal technology, AESA, all that good stuff would be going on, of course.
Iroquois engines would have powered all kinds of planes of the day, and spawned alternatives to what P&W, RR and GE are offering.
Todays planes probably be even better performers, because everyone and their dog would have wanted a chance to study the Arrow.
And maybe, just maybe, we wouldn't have clowns like the Trudeaus making us look like a joke on the world stage.
Thank you and I am glad you enjoyed the video! I like your what if’s and feel they would be pretty accurate had things moved forward.
@@PilotPhotog I think keeping the Arrow program alive, even as an R&D platform probably would have stemmed the problem we have in Canada with "Brain Drain" too. We end up with a lot of really smart people who follow the money and head south to the US.
One of the biggest mistakes in aviation history such a good potential wasted . Political pressure at work again any way another great video thankyou
Agreed and thanks for commenting!
Yea same for America with the YF-23
@@gordonbinlawsay3310 I despise that aircraft
Am I imagining it, or does it almost look like it inspired the Eurofighter? That whole rapid scramble ideology, very high altitude performance, and the twin engine delta design... Given how advanced the Arrow was planned to be for its time, it's possible that its successor going into the 70's could have been an analog of the Typhoon twenty years early!
Gotta admit though, the Arrow's insane combat weight probably didn't help its case, as the aircraft wouldn't have had the versatility to sell as a useful multirole, such as the F-4 or even the F-104 could, with nations such as Germany and Italy using the Starfighter in an air superiority and strike role, as well as a bomber interceptor. The Arrow would have JUST been an interceptor, a type which was rapidly becoming obsolete
Excellent points and thanks for commenting! And if your reading this and haven't checked out the new Armor Cast channel you should - great content by my good friend TSK!
The cancellation of the CF-105 made a martyr out of a plane that would have been very fast obsolete and considered too expensive. It could have been remembered as a white elephant.
Any chance of finding out how many techies went with the 'Skunk-Works' program?. BTW, loved the info and your Channel.
It’s easy to say something would have been great if it was never subjected to the reality of existing, and the exposure of its flaws that would have been exposed.
ummm it flew test flights.
As long as you don't land it on a carrier, it would be a decent interceptor. However, it would have had all of the problems of the Vought F7U Cutlass. There is a reason why canards are so popular on modern Delta wings.
Im in the uk.... and lets just say TSR2.......
N x
@@molnibalage83 I think maybe Balazs... has shot me down a little.. he got in my six....
At the time it was an interesting development..
my point was more the way the project was dropped..
and a beautifull looking jet..
im from uk sooooo a little biased...
N x
Sad... just sad. .. But awesome documentation!
Agreed and thank you!
I was under the impression that USSR made not so veiled threats if Canada built such a "destabilizing" plane.
Canada destroyed all tooling and prototypes. Would like to know real story.
the yanks took away all the equipment...it was not scrapped
@@rorymunroe3771 any other info? Whole cancelation seemed fishy.
Dief the Thief made sure Canada would always be a leg behind in cutting edge avionics from that day forward.
Canadian politicians historically have always cancelled important projects if they thought they could win a few political points. From Dieffenbaker right through to Trudeau today that Canadian tradition continues today...let the national interest and the well being of Canadians be dammed!
If you read "The Arrow Scrapbook" you'll see The Conartists only followed what the Lieberals had planned had they won the election. They both listened to their generals, who preferred missiles.