You’ve kind of framed the “friend zone” in a different light. It’s quite interesting. I was friends with a guy in high school. I considered him only a friend and didn’t see until many years later, as an adult, that he liked me more than that. I never understood how he could see that relationship as more than just friends but you just explained it. He wasn’t used to getting that kind of emotional depth in a friendship so he put greater meaning on it. While I’ve always shared that amount of emotional intimacy with all of my friends so I saw it no different to those.
While I was always too shy to try and form relationships with women who I was sexually attracted to I get along with women better than men. I have mostly women for friends. For the record I'm male.
In Africa, as a Man, you have to be strong and bottle up your emotions, which makes most men see emotional closeness from a lady as romance. We are really starved emotionally over here, that we drink and form strong outside but cry in secrets. Our culture about men is so strong, as an INFJ guy I need to fake things outside to escape the mockery. That's why I won't want a friendship with a lady because I will rely on her and make it romantic, I would rather find one who wants a romantic one with me and then I open up.
I'm sorry to hear that. I must say very INFJ of you to realize this about your friendships with women. I do wish you the best and I hope you know regardless of what your culture says you are a man whether you show emotions or not. Don't let their messed up beliefs stop you from being who you are. Hope the right lady finds you.
I have found it challenging to be friends with guys as it has become emotional labor because guys are so starved emotionally because of lack of proper human connection with other guys. Due to social stigma and culture. Sad. Its overburdening women and it becomes a codependant relationship.. ( sorry for my bad English)
I think the problems you seem to be having comes from yourself. You seem to be complicating your own role in a casual relationship. Do you try to "fix" your friends, male or female, do you give "advice" just because some-one tells you about a problem they may be having. Quite often people talk about a problem to you just to sort things out in their own mind. They usually are not really involving you, they are verbally expressing the problem and that can help some people. The language you use is either condescending or even abusive. To you guys are "...emotionally starved", have "lack of proper human connection", living with "Social stigma and culture". Where are you and who is it you are considering to be your "friends" - aliens? According to you men are "...over burdening women...co-dependent relationship..." Too much jargon to be genuine. Just my opinion. Perhaps leave men alone - they'll be ok with the right woman. Just my opinion.
@@ladybug591 In regards to the advice thing, if I can think of some way they may be able to improve their situation, I’ll give my advice. They don’t need to take it if they don’t want to. I just want to share some advice because I care about them.
@@ladybug591 As for the second part of your paragraph, you’re neglecting the fact this is still very prevalent and there’s as many dudes being forced to fit the toxic masculine stereotype and repress their emotions as there are guys who are emotionally mature enough to avoid being emotionally draining for some people - not just women. This isn’t just men who lack that emotional maturity and have an inability to make healthy human connections, but it’s more likely more boys at a young age to learn to bottle up their emotions because of this toxic stereotype. I’m a woman who was bullied as a child and learnt the harmful habit of bottling up my emotions, so I’m an example of a victim who gained some of these problems because of bullying throughout my childhood.
Not my experience, as a guy. I have few friends, but those friends are more nuanced than nearly every woman I've spent time with. Not making any larger assumptions or generalizations there, but I do believe that men of a more artistic or sensitive nature tend enjoy the companionship of other men for certain reasons, and women for others. It's not that these reasons are mutually exclusive; any woman I've spoken to that I can talk to for hours (and enjoy myself) is such a blessing. I've only dated one woman that was on that level, and unfortunately I was too young and inexperienced to really understand how valuable she was.
Yes, I find myself always supporting, and understanding these guys. There is help for them with education to set them straight. I'm good for guys like this. Yep the generations that destroyed the Boy's confidence and made ignorant I do what I can because I understand. I have two gay sons with Aspergers and a Covert Narcissist father. I had two brothers with Aspergers, Also my son's friends. I have to remind my youngest that I can't help some people.
Men seem “available “ to their sisters and mothers. So, they enjoy the connection. Women are looking for emotional connection, in most relationships. Society, has caused the disconnect. The best/long lasting/ honest, relationships.... are those that “allow” true and honest exchange of human experience..which is not, based on what”Sex” you are. Connection is based on open mindedness and compassion/empathy.
My personal take is generally females can have platonic friendship with males but not the other way around. It seems a male's friendship with a female has a certain level or sexual attraction undertone(could be high or low) , but a female can close to completely have none attraction to a male and has no problem having a platonic friendship.
Holy shit, why doesn't this video have more views? It felt like you were speaking out of my mind in the beginning. And the second part of the video was so clear and understandable, I never heard these complex topics laid out so concise.
There's always been sexual interest when men wanted to spend time with me. If I wanted to be just a friend with men, they never had time for me. Even if we had common interests and could have a good time together. Edit: Things have changed in the past year and a half, I don't know if it's been pushed into using the Internet more for interaction, I hadn't used SM at all before, but I now have male friends, who are 'just' friends, and it means a lot. The funny thing is that one of them thought that it was I who was romantically attracted to him and that would've been a problem. So I am glad to report that I have friendships with members of the opposite sex.
The term “friend zone” comes off as such an entitled stance to me. It seems to suggest that a romantic/sexual relationship is being “withheld” from someone who is undeserving of such “rejection.” Nobody owes anyone a specific intimate connection, and consent is fluid. A person solely experiencing platonic feelings towards another isn’t committing some kind of act of aggression. Also, any gender can take advantage of someone by leading them on, which is messed up, but ultimately the onus is on an individual to mind their own boundaries.
@@illigirl768 Yes, women are great (can't say I didn't pursue any sexual interest with them in the past 😂 - only half-joking). I guess I have always envied a men's camaraderie in a group and wanted to be part of it. Well, I was recently told that not all men have that kind of experience either. I also found that you could have a different kind of conversations with men, having said that as time goes on I have those conversations with women now. So all good 🙂
Same here! I am an INFJ female and prefer opposite sex friendships. I think for me the reason is I am not emotional enough to connect with most stereotypical women (as they expect another woman to be on the same level) so it's easier to connect with (stereotypically less emotional) guys, for whom I still seem quite emotional.
That's a very good observation @YJ Klee - makes me wonder if that's also why we INFJ hetero wimmin get more cattiness from other (coupled up) women until they actually get past their own issues around 'our' value as human beings first. Downside is, yes, typical hyper-masculinised guy friends will, as @Clay Arnall suggests, eventually hit on the INFJ gal pal if they don't have a strong boundaried relationship from the outset. INFJ females are kinda sweet yet tough all at the same time?
@@MarlaJaneNZ perfectly stated. Something I’m going thru right now with some of my guy friends’ and their girlfriends “not liking” me based off very surface level judgements.
I grew up in a culture and religion where it's considered almost a sin for a man and a woman to hangout alone as friends unless they're married. In school and college I used to get very nervous when a guy tried talking to me . One time my mom saw my neighbor, a guy, trying to talk to me outside our home .. She yelled at me and slapped me across my face so hard, It felt like I literally lost my ear
I think that a man can be emotionally available and be straight. It depends on the heart of the person and not just gender. Much love to you and all bro
The idealist in me wants to say 'yes,' men and women can and should be able to be just friends...But, of course, life in reality is much more complicated and nuanced than that...Good friends of either sex are hard to find...
Yes. One of my best friends was a guy. He said he'd been seeing a neurologist because he started having seizures out of the blue, and it scared him. They didn't figure things out in time, and sadly he died in his sleep only in his his early 30's. I miss him so much. Never had any romantic interest in each other, which always confused the women in his life "you've never even kissed!?" No dude, we are not like that. It was like he was my brother or even my dad in a past life lol our birthdays were only days apart but he was 2 years older. I could always trust him and we could talk about any and everything. Always gave me great advice, and looked out for me. Also loved his pets and spoiled them so. A handyman, a builder, a very peaceful, patient and wise soul that was good to everyone - even people who were assholes to him. I'd get pissed for him and tell the people off lol I'd ask "how are YOU not mad?" And he'd say "I think of it as they did me a favor by showing their true colors, and they're not worth the fuss so I turn the other cheek." He loved life and had a quiet confidence that people gravitated towards. He was just too good for this world. Love you, Tex!!!
Let me help you out Clay. INFJ 26M 1 - Do I resonate more with women struggles? Yes and no. I never get approached by women, but I want a deep long term connection(I guess that's called a woman struggle?) I don't know actually, never thought about it. Let's go with no, hehe.. 2- I don't want to appear gay? Yes, in the past I was afraid to be myself because people called me gay, soft or a pus***. Not anymore, people know I am sensitive, feminine and whatever and they still think I'm gay or bisexual. I've overcome the fear of judgement regarding my sexual orientation. Keep in mind, I've never doubted my sexuality no matter how much I juggle feminine and masculine within me. Never. Nada 3- Yes, because of my 6feet and muscly figure and "intimidating(their words) I am expected to be the typical man, not open up, be tough and bla bla blaaaaaaaa 4- I think because I've always tried to fit in, I've developed a lot of my masculine side and ignored the feminine one and meditation helped overcome this and obv realise it 5- I've always felt attracted to very feminine women, I'm not sure yet is because I lack in it or it relaxes the feminine side in me so I can be more masculine and therefore feel better? 6- Can women and men just be friends? As much as I would like to say YES, from my experience is a clear NO, but IT DEPENDS, lol. I'll go with NO. That doesn't make it true. It's my experience within my level of awareness. I've tried to keep it as short as possible because duuude there so much more to say, but here we go, I hope it helps.
Wow, I think this is the best video I have come across on whether men and women can be just friends. The answer really as you have said is, it depends... I agree typical man and typical woman, nah, this friendship is mostly likely to develop into a relationship. But man with some 'feminine ' attributes and woman with some 'masculine' attributes are most likely to be just friends. I want to say that these are more like the 'in between' gender for lack of a better term. I am not a typical woman in that I don't particularly have typical girl interests like hair,makeup and nails and stuff so I resonate more with men who mostly prefer highly intellectual conversations, rational and logical stuff. I have a good number of wonderful male friends but have had to cut off those who wanted more than friendship.
I have guy friends that I'm just friends with, but I don't spend time alone with them if either of us are in a relationship. It's not because I think that there would be anything physical. It's just because I wouldn't want to be disrespectful to my significant other or theirs. Also, I make sure that I don't say anything to my male friends that I wouldn't want their significant other to hear.
the men in my life, my friends, have done more for me emotionally than my male family members or exes. Because of their caring and love, with no expectations of romance or sex, I can actually recognize emotionally stable men. I think friendships are really important between men and women.
28:10 really love this part. The most distressing part about the argument that men and women can never be friends is that it means I would have to cut off some of my best friends that have added so much to my life simply because they're women. It all depends, as you said, and I wish more people had that viewpoint. Nothing is black and white, relationships of any kind are a grey area. Men and women can absolutely be great friends, it all depends on intentions and boundaries.
I so relate to becoming friends with a guy, us being vulnerable and open, and then him interpreting this closeness as being romantic, whereas I see it as the way I am with any other friend. This is probably exactly why women often, from the get go, categorize men as having sexual/romantic intentions, because it so often becomes that when the walls come down and both parties become very open with one another. We learn, with time, that it is almost impossible. Which sucks. Because i LOVE men. I wish I'd have more guy friends. They bring different perspectives, ways of reacting to events, views. But... shit always hits the fan 🤷♀️ Sigh...
I have a question. How do males and females bond with each other? I don't see how men and women can bond (especially romantically) with each other. Men and women think very differently from each other. Women can build incredible friendships and become very close to each other in a way men can't bond, and science shows that women can bond very well with each other. Generally, women are even more social than men are. After something bad happens, a woman quickly rushes to talk to all of her female friends to get support, whereas a man can isolate himself and grief alone. Women tend to be more emotional, more caring, more empathic, more compassionate, more affectionate, more loyal, more nurturing, more understanding, more sympathetic, more sensitive, more kind-hearted, more peaceful, more calmer, more gentle, more expressive, more intuitive, and more outward than men are, and thus bond more with other women in a special way that they can’t with men. Men, on the other hand, are not that emotional, and thus can’t bond with other men in a special way. Women are more comfortable being around with other women than they are with men. They have a type of bond that usually men with women won’t really have, or with men and men. Also, girls that are friends touch each other in ways that guys just don’t.
@@velzehsedam2060 I heard that lesbian relationships are healthier because they understand each other. If both partners understand each other, they won’t want to break up with each other. I also heard that women have higher rates of depression when married (in straight relationships). There is a very small percent of women that are happy in heterosexual relationships. So it's very hard for men and women to bond with each other and have a strong bond with each other. Both men and women think differently, behave differently, react in a different way.
@@velzehsedam2060 Many people in straight relationships tend to hate each other. A LOT of men in straight relationships tend to make jokes about how they hate their wife.
@@velzehsedam2060 Women feel a lot safer in general with other women than they do with men if either is alone with each other, and it is easier for women to trust other women more than it is to trust a man. Men are usually much lonelier than women are. Men don't often talk about their personal problems with their male friends like how women do with their female friends. Females produce a lot more oxytocin than males do. And that's a reason why women tend to hug a lot more and be a lot more physically affectionate than men do. Most daughters have a very strong bond with their mother, while they don’t have one with their father, and most sons don’t have that strong of a bond with neither their mother nor their father. Most females have a very strong bond with their sisters, while they don’t have one with their brothers, and most males don’t have that strong of a bond with neither their sisters nor their brothers. A big reason why many women hope to have a daughter instead of a son when they are trying to get pregnant is for the experiences one doesn't get with a son, like shopping for her prom dress together or going for mother/daughter manicures. In many cases as a girl grows up, she becomes closer to her mother whereas boys aren't generally as close with their parents. And also, it's also harder for females to bond with their brothers than it is with their sisters for the exact same reasons. The bond that two females have with each other is the strongest bond of them all, and that's one of the reasons why sayings like “girls always have to stick together” exist. The friendship of males and females can hardly be as good as a female to a female relationship from a woman’s point of view. How can a man and woman have a special strong type of bond with each other if women have a special strong type of bond with each other while men don’t have one with each other?
I had many very close female friends in my younger years. Friendship with women doesn’t contain any competition, which is usually the case between men (usually unspoken competition, but it’s there). Friendships with women usually end when the woman meets a partner, especially after the age of 30. There can also arise attraction from one side in the friendship with women, which makes it difficult. In my case, the women wanted a romantic relationship with me.
Billy Crystal explained this succinctly in the famous movie, “When Harry Met Sally”. Men view sex as a pleasurable activity, so they can have sex with many different partners and it doesn't have to involve emotional commitment. Of course, it’s always better if there is some connection, but for guys that’s not necessary. On the other hand, women view sex as an expression of love due to oxytocin.
I'd say I made the mistake of having less boundaries with a gay man, and he confused me because his intentions seemed like he was sexually interested but he denied it. Things got weirder and weirder. Too much touching. Trust me, don't just blindly trust gay men either. Sometimes they violate too many boundaries too. I don't think he was into me, I think he was in emotional pain so his behaviors reflected romantic interest. Not generalizing, just look for red flags.
I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I believe SOME men have decided to be gay because they aren't comfortable being the sexual aggressor. They may feel intimidated by women. But if they have a good female friend then that pressure is gone, they feel comfortable with that friend they may start to make moves. This is something I have experienced first hand myself. People are individuals and do things for different drivers.
@@blueyedenigma5010 You're not wrong. He did say he was in love with me. He would pretend he didn't remember kissing me. It was so frustrating I ended the friendship. He'd pull that crap all the time. Yes, agreed it happens in rare situations.
I've been in this situation as well, but as a guy. My family's oldest friend is gay, so I grew up integrated in that regard and have never had any hangups about hanging with gay guys. But my best friend back in high school came out by admitting be wanted to have sex with me. Couldn't hang out with him after that, though I tried. Felt like complete betrayal of all the time I spent with him. I don't have friends that are girls (unless they're lesbian, in which case the bassist from my last band and her gf are good friends of mine) for the same reason. It seems two-sided to be around someone that's waiting for their opportunity to get with you because you're wondering what they're hiding from you, and it's too distracting to make the conversation natural.
I am an INFJ man and basically everything you said resonates with me, from the homophobia, being on the female side in some readings about relationships, and masculinity, I definitly think we had different upbringings and it shows. Growing up I had a very tough father who taught me to be alot more cold to the people I am close to while my mother was the complete opposite. So I was definitely torn in the middle and confused on how I should feel. Making me see the differences and think about "how I should feel" in every relationship I have. I do find myself trying to pull emotions out of people rather than them pull them out of me, some other things that's some people could consider manipulative and learned this definitly isnt the best and decided to hold myself back from doing these things. not too sure what you said about some illness, I'll have to watch more of your videos.
I have come across this video, and I am in the exact issue in my life. I believe I have part of an answer as well. The difference for me is my female friendship came out of us actually did date for a couple of years, but that was about 10 years ago. A few years later, after we broke up. We started talking as friends. We are yes very good friends, but the beautiful lady I am in a relationship with today does have a lot of trouble with it. I feel she is very jealous of the situation. I swear to her all the time we are truly strictly just friends. I would not cheat. I was cheated on in my first marriage. I truly know what that feels like as well. Than You very much for making this video, it is a confusing issue in life today. It all comes down to trust, which is what every relationship has to have as a foundation for it to truly be something as special as it can be. I would trust another person in a reverse situation if they provided they were trustworthy. Times have changed, people need to accept the changes we all have caused today....
I think everyone should see this video! I currently have no male friends & have been dropped from all of them throughout my life. It hurts because I thought we were truly friends & it had nothing to do with romantic interest. Now I see why they may be so hurt and are unable to continue the friendship.
Interesting. I’m an INFJ female but have no desire for close friendships and don’t have any. I prefer the surface level friendship, mainly kept on the internet only. I like my partner to be my sole source of support outside of myself.
I am an INFJ. I am the only girl in a family of 3 older brothers. I also now have 2 sons (one’s an INFJ the other is INFP). I’ve always been able to have better relationships with men than women, bc most women seem to become competitive, manipulative or jealous. However, I do practice careful boundaries with men friends, bc I value their whole world of relationships. I am mindful to include their wives, or gfs in conversations. I stay out of meddling in their lives and keep topics on what are similarities we share. I value their thoughts and opinions, and I hope in exchange, they value mine.
What you mentioned about males being less nurtured during adolescence than females reminds me of the archetype "mama's boy". Because I remember males during childhood being called that when they were wanting emotional support and was displayed in front of their peers. Society I feel just wants us to suffer in my opinion thats why we are more isolated than ever and communication is lacking even though we are now "more connected than ever due to technology, but that doesn't yield towards healthy emotional intimacy.
Moma's boy here. Society does not have a brain and therefore can not want. We are responsible for where society goes. So we try to head it in a direction that everyone needs.
Nah mamas boy is a thing. There are too many mothers who put their sons on a pedestal and shame their daughters all the time dont try to ignore it and act like it isn't a thing
@@missfefeloves I never said a true "mamas boy" was not a thing. What I am saying is that men are afraid to express emotions due to societal standards and it hurts society in the end. And actually yes my mother actuallu did put my brother on a pedestal because he was the first born son which he got away with alot of things growing up. I am Nigerian American and that is how alot of Nigerian households work. I see the gaps and missteps in parenting which is to allow boys to express their emotions, BUT that does not mean to put them on a pedestal. Teach them to be compassionate humans just like we teach that for girls. THAT is what I am trying to say.
@@violindalola So you think being a mama's boy is a bad thing, right? Bit it seems like those mama's boys are the ones that are allowed to express their emotions the most, right? So why are those mama's boys hated? You said your brother got away with alot of things, but if we ask him, don't you think he will say that you also got a way with alot of things and that you were put on a pedestal? Because generally smaller sisters and brothers want attention from their parents, so they are very prone to being jealous if they felt that the attention to them isn't enough.
@@MA-gu2up In my parents culture (Nigerian), girls were not given any slack. He was the first born son and treasured. Also my brother raped me from age 4 to 7. He literally could get away with murder growing up with him we were 5 years apart. We were left alone alot while my parents worked 3 jobs so barely any supervision. He held knives to my face. As we got older I was never allowed to go anywhere. When I got accepted into college, my parents said if I went they would disown me, because my brother did not finish college yet and I was about to start. I went anyways and they stopped talking to me for 2 years. Also I never said being a mamas boy was a bad thing. You misread all what I said in my first post.
Hello Clay, I wanted to thank you for the content you make. I am young and asking myself tons of questions, your videos are really helping me answer them and are helping me to truly understand myself. It seems like you've already lived through what I'm living through and hearing what you've learned really helps me progress faster in my quest of understanding and improving myself.
Hey Clay, awesome topic to discus. Regarding your question on infj feeling like they relate to the women in the study. I find myself relating to women more just like you. I'm a straight male but have only 3 close guys friends everyone else is a women. Guys seem boring to me. I still to this day find it wild that there is someone out there that is exactly like me, even if we have had different upbringings. You are almost like a mentor to me at this point since you are a couple years older.
As I've grown up, I feel like I've gotten more and more female friends. When I was younger I had One female friend who was/is essentially like a sister to me, so I never developed feelings for her. When I was adolescent, I was more interested in girls in a more romantic way, and there was always an underlying question of "are we gonna date?" and during those years I was "friend zoned" a lot more, because I couldn't be honest to the girls I was interested in. Now I'm 30, and I feel like those thrashing hormonal instincts have calmed down a lot more. Right now I'm sort of looking at what kind of person someone is; if they're a woman and I think we have a "romantic" chemistry, I'm not going to be friends with them first and foremost, I'm going to see how romantically interested they are in me. With that being said, like mentioned before, I'm also getting more and more female friends who I have no romantic interest in, and who I really only see as Real Friends. I'm sort of measuring the "chemistry" when I first meet someone (man or woman), and if I get "Friend Chemistry" vibes from them, I'm going to be their platonic friend, the gender doesn't matter then. I *am* INFJ, and as many people of my type know, it's hard to find people you vibe with just in general, so I'm just happy if there's *any* mutual chemistry at all to be honest. People are their interests, sense of humor, intelligence, kindness and virtues and flaws first, and their gender second.
Hey! Loved this video. Thankyou for shining your light and showing other men that they can be vulnerable and open. I think you would get on with my male friends, they are very similar to you. They’re sensitive, they have emotional hugs when they’re feeling sad, and they talk about their feelings. These men do exist and I personally find these qualities in men super sexy!! I couldn’t be with a man that didn’t have these qualities. It is indeed very sad the expectations our culture puts on men. Your son is lucky to have you, perhaps you should consider home schooling. I would say that if your partner has an opposite sex friend, it is super important that you and your partner can establish some boundaries around physical intimacy especially. Your partner should also make an effort to include you in that friendship sometimes, and make an effort to listen to your fears and make you feel reassured and comfortable. Trust them until they give you a reason not to!
When my children were young I met a stay-at-home Dad at our community playgroup. We became fast friends and both our families became good friends. There were never any romantic feelings between us because we were not attracted to each other in that way. Maybe we were too similar. But we would get funny looks when we would take our kids on activities together. I’m sure that people thought that there was something inappropriate going on. Nope.
Yeah it’s a shame really and something I go through as a dad who has his kids a lot. Not a ton of people to hangout with because most dads are at work and many mother’s see it as slightly inappropriate to spend time together. There are of course exceptions like yourself :)
@@ClayArnall Of course, having said that, I have had the opposite experience, more than once. I tend to look at people as individuals and assume that I can be a friend to a man with no problems. However, it has gotten me into sticky situations where I have had to fight off physical advances. So, yeah, it definitely depends on the person.
Thank you for addressing the issue. I've always been naturally drawn to friendship with men, since my childhood years. As an INFJ I have a natural desire to develop deep and meaningful relationships with people, regardless of their gender. A couple of times it was mistaken for kind of romantic interest, and even now I still discover that some of my male friends were in love with me, simply because I always was there for them. You're right, emotional unavailability has been imposed on men long ago, but luckily things are starting to change. I also noticed how a sibling's gender can affect a child's development, there 's no direct correlation, but all guys I know who have sisters tend to be more caring and sensitive. What do you think about it? P. S. I think pink looks great on you, and in general pink looks great on men, too bad this beautiful color fell victim to another misconception.
As a woman, I have been stung too many times by befriending straight men and then finding out after I started to lower my guard that he has been trying to date me/seduce me. I will then reaffirm that I was seeking friendship and then they stop talking to me. I don’t LIKE that I am instantly suspicious of straight men, but I have learned that I have to be. Just recently one of my closest friends (who happens to be a straight man) blind sided me in the middle of a group hangout telling me that he’s believes he has been in love with me for months. It was horrible. I had allowed myself to trust him completely and then he sprung that on me. I turned him down, but it ruined the entire friendship because it left me feeling wary of all of our one-on-one interactions.
Point of consideration - I've observed that physical contact/sharing emotions between men is vastly different between certain countries/cultures. Would be interesting to see how this affects these studies between men & womens friendships.
INFJ male here. I think you did a good job answering this question. It really depends on the situation and the people involved. If happy and satisfied in your relationship, sure a female friend is fine, given certain conditions. If you’re not happy/satisfied, then that new friendship can feel much better than what you’re in and naturally you’ll fantasize what it would be like if you switched. So that’s all kind of understood but you provided a lot of sound scientific evidence for the various components of the equation. Good work. I think you could possibly make a part 2 of this video and talk about friends (and even good friends) with benefits. One question I have is, what prevents one person in a situation like that from pursuing something more? Obviously somethings lacking somewhere, or is it something else? And a bonus video would be about “the one” and maybe “the one that got away” that kinda ruins all future relationships.
AS an INFJ man I do experience the difficulty of having friendships with women because of my own definition of friendship. To me friendship is very deep and the line between girlfriend and friend becomes very thin I find. Therefore I do not think it is appropriate when the women has a boyfriend. Of course it's different if it's only to share sports, hobbies or having smalltalk here and there.
I'm an INFJ woman, and like you I find that when my female friends get married/have kids, I'm sometimes "dropped", and it has nothing to do with an opposite sex friendship. This is just what happens when people enter into a new/different stage in their lives. Also as an "empath", the older I get the more I seem to naturally lose friendships. I guess it's a mismatch in energies.
I have a son. He’s 27. When he was young, he was taught to be open, to talk about his emotions, his dad and I both encouraged to be open. Never did we say don’t cry. This is a macho characteristic especially coming from a Spanish background. Evolved humans are open to allowing everyone to just be, including our own children. Be open with your son, allow him to respond how it may be natural to him. I don’t think you’ll have issues here with communication with him. He’s young still, it’ll be an amazing experience for you both.
Great insightful video. Maybe ask Frank James, I'd love to see you guys have a conversation as both INFJ men, who have platforms. Also i think it would make an interesting video if you can explain the difference between knowing whether or not your attraction for someone is romantic or is it that you are attracted to the qualities to which they have/present to you?
Hi Clay, you have explained this very well. I come from a culture where back home men have deep, emotional and strong friendships. Men even hold hands and say they love each other. You might be surprised but I am talking about Muslim men. And the crazy thing is, when men behave this way, they are labelled gay, which they are not. Same gender friendships are normal, healthy and even legendary, like the friendship between Rumi and Shams of Tabriz. I think you are completely right that these days men find in women the emotional intelligence and support that they may not find in their own male friends, but this does not have to be the case because the right to be emotionally aware and expressive is a right for both genders.
I noticed that muslim men have very strong and close friendships, that is why this talk about how men don't express themselves look alien to me Maybe it is mainly a problem in the western world. Are you muslim btw?
I've watched maybe a hundred relationship videos lately trying to understand different perspectives. This one is by far the most thoughtful and nuanced one on platonic relationships I've seen. A lot of videos on platonic relationships are either very critical of the concept (too risky?) or are just loaded with (not very good) data that lose the important nuances. Research questions often confuse (conflate) all the variations in platonic relationships. Single/taken/divorced/widowed, gay/straight, disciplined/reckless, younger/older, male/female, more/less emotional, healthy/unhealthy other relationships, etc., and especially "how do you even define friendship(!!)" all need to be considered and ultimately I agree (FWIW) with Clay's conclusions at 1:02 and 27:16. There is just not a universal one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Excellent and thoughtful video.
Man I love your channel. As an INTP I've thought about a lot of the topics that you talk about and my thought process and conclusions are very similar to yours. Keep up the good work.
Hey Clay. I am an ENFJ man instead of an INFJ man, but I resonate completely with what you were saying around 5:35-7:25. I have spoke about this a lot too actually...growing up in the Bronx especially, I noticed as a child that when I wanted to connect more deeply with people, it was hard since the guys were always afraid that it was a sign of homosexuality (I am also straight ftr) and also they feared me being more of the Alpha Male by being so aware of their inner emotions and in tune with them in a way that they may have felt powerless. I still have trouble with this in my day to day life, finding male friends in this way, and therefore I have always gotten along better with women for the same reasons you stated. But I agree, it sucks about the whole when they get married thing... I love how you stated that these things should not be called feminine or masculine traits, but just human traits. And your way of making the whole question come back around to the fact that men would interpret a genuine friendship with a woman as a romantic one due to the depth of intimacy in it, that makes sense. I think that is truly the current problem with many guys. You gave amazing insight and advice in this video. I wish I had a friend like you growing up (or even more like you now haha). Thanks again for another dope video.
As an INTJ woman, the difficulty of “fitting in” is real. Although the difference is I have more female friendships than male but I enjoy friendships with both. I find value in the insights of all sexes.
I find my closer friends are women but the majority of my friends who I spend more time with are men. I go to my girlfriends when I’m looking to socialize in a more conversational way, but I’m a very very playful person so when I’m feeling extremely playful I mostly go to my male friends be because we are more likely to do actual activities instead of just talking. I am not so interested in talking about my issues but I like to give others advice on their issues so I only really go to women when I’m in the mood to be helpful to someone else and be someone else’s rock. I am actually more likely to confide in my male friends than my female ones because I feel like the topic will be dropped sooner and I prefer that, and then we can move on to a more fun activity afterwards that will help me get my energy out. For context, I’m a 20 year old female. I was INFJ when I was 18, then INTJ shortly after I turned 19 which lasted about a year and a half, and then recently I tested again and I am back to being an INFJ (I assume this is because my personality is still so fluid because I’m young).
Closes friends were always females because reasons you said. They were more open up emotionally. I think for INFJs, Yes you can have girl friend, but what I discovered, is that if a longer time of closeness pass, if she wanted, I would try relationship, because for me its more important that closeness in relationship than anything else. If that never happens, we still remain friends, but life is life and at some point of a time, she will be moving on, find someone, and I, as closest friend, will became at one point second, which can cause me to distance from that friendship... Its like "She dont need me anymore, I dont get enough understanding, its time to move on"...
As an INFJ straight man, most of my friends are much older women, like my grandma's age. And I prefer to sit in the ladies' circle at family functions.
My observations over the year's having married two very different men & buried both of them. Knowing self identity at an early age makes a difference. My first husband was intuitive to the point of being spooky in his ability to read others, very high IQ, incredable hand eye coordination, sensitive, artistic & creative. He also loved to do typical guy's things like hunt and fish and be in the outdoors. We grew up in the same small community & knew each other since Junior high. He was my best friend ever. We grew up and lived in a rural northern small population conservative state. He went on to a high stress job as a stock broker & put me through college & a professional degree. The situation you're describing depends on a man being comfortable within his own skin AND in belief of his own definition of what defines masculinity or innate Maleness. He taught me that knowing yourself truthfully sometimes with harsh internal assessment, a person of any gender has the ability to observe & feel others needs and fears. This in turn develops an ability to agree to disagree on differences making compromise much easier to accomplish.
I have never had any luck being friends with men. I would love to be, but it seems like something I do always grays that relationship. I think it's very possible though. I am pretty naive and often miss the signs someone may have more interest then just being my friend. Sometimes I feel like being kind and polite gives off some kind of signal that I am not trying to emit. But I am very open and don't want to lead anyone on. I have yet to have a male friendship (other than family or friends partners) without them wanting more and the ultimately they leave the friendship. It's sad. Thank you for this video!! I love learning everything about why people are the way they are. It is completely fascinating to me.
Same here. I got accused so much of hitting on men or flirting with them, when in my mind I'm just being nice or polite, it's like even if I smile too much they take it as a signal. I hope I'll figure out how to not give off that vibe in the future
Interesting topic. From my experience a male and female can care about each other without sexual expectations but friendship has to be declared in order to prevent any confusion. Also true, about manliness expectations being over the top as a black person in Africa. People don't wanna acknowledge what they are not used to, however when I am effective as a human being while resisting any attempts to change my values... that lead to acceptance, but also loneliness because like attracts like.
i love this topic! such an eye opener! i feel bad for my guy friends sometimes coz i can feel that they cant be as vulnerable as women. not only my guy friends but also the guys in my family. they are humans too and need emotional support as women do.
You seem cool (I never use that word, but it seemed appropriate here.) On another note, I believe if more platonic relationships involved cuddling, way less people would suffer from loneliness. And I agree with your dad. The true masculine and true feminine are both unique expressions of God's nature, and we need to be in touch with both.
Maybe I’m crazy or ignorant but I really believe that people’s minds have been “set” (like plaster or even concrete) in such a way that they are unable to really be “just friends”. “Just friends” is a weird way to put what a true friendship really is, but of course “just friends” really means a friendship that doesn’t go further into romance. What has so set people’s minds? In my opinion it is the hyper focus on sex so that even the idea “just friends” is still based on sex as the deciding point of how close a friendship really is. Society looks at two people spending time together and instantly takes it all the way to a romantic or sexual relationship. This has happened with me when I was younger on a few occasions and people are always like “so… are you and her..?” And I would say “if we were you wouldn’t even need to ask the question because it would be clear as day.” I think part of the answer to “can men and women be just friends” is answered by understanding why we ask this question to begin with and what has so influenced us to wonder it at all.
I'm in a platonic friendship since 5 years now. I have usually been introvert and set high boundries with friends. But now I'm suprised to see what person I've become thanks to this friendship I became more emotional confident and open-minded though I was more into my masculine energy before. As I have never been in a real romantic relationship,he showed me the type of men I could share my life with in the future. Yet, honest to God I usually embark in a sort of emotional elevator that makes me wonder why and how I got into such a deep emotional adventure. It's not really easy to live despite it's fairy beauty. I just feel it's not permanent especially that I live in a society where husbands cannot tolerate their wives to have male friends.
I'm not an infj I am an enfp but when it comes to hugging another dude I tend to just not need that or want that to the degree of an emotional hug but if it were to be in the case of supporting someone going through a hard time I have no issues with one or shame associated with it. I think for me atleast it comes from a place of support not a place of need or want.
I've just discovered this video. You make some good points. My opinion is that men and women, in general, cannot be "just friends". I'm not here to force my logic and reason unto anyone who disagrees, but I speak from personal experience when I say the whole men and women being strictly platonic friends thing is extremely rare and difficult to put it lightly. There are tons of research and studies that back up these claims. So in simplest terms can a man view a woman as strictly platonic? The answer is yes, with the caveat that he does not find her attractive. Harsh truth, I know, but it is reality. The other type of men who have female friends are what we call orbiters, these guys have ulterior motives and only pretend to be platonic friends with females in order to learn their taste and interest so that they can eventually try to manipulate these women when they're down into sleeping with them. All women have both of these types of male friends, and more than half the women are completely naive and oblivious to these facts until it is shown to them. When it comes to women, it's important to understand the fact that men and women see things differently and this goes back to the differences in our biology. The way we view certain things are innate. There are three types of women who have male friends. There are women who are carousel riders who keep men around as "friends", when in reality these are just men that they are sleeping with or are planning to sleep with. The other type of woman keeps men in the " friendzone " because she is not physically attracted to him at all. However, she continuously keeps him around for attention, validation, and any resources he may provide to her. These women are generally dishonest and not forthcoming of their true feelings or intentions, and use these types of weak or oblivious lonely men as an emotional tampon. Finally, we all have met or have been with women who have that male "best friend " that she's known for years and years, who she knows is completely " platonic ". Except for the fact that if you are a man you can spot it from a mile away that her "bestie" is secretly madly in love with her. These types of men are not necessarily bad guys, they are just very attracted to and are in some cases in love with these types of females for years and years while pretending to be platonic, while simultaneously hoping that this girl will come around and see them as a perfect match. These women are usually very naive and are shocked when the truth is revealed, because they've never viewed these male friends romantically at any point. This is the reason why myself and millions of other men believe that men and women cannot be strictly platonic friends in the same way that two straight males can be friends due to thinking similarly, having similar life experiences, and having many other things in common. With my close male friends, I view them as family. My best friend who recently died was like a brother to me. He knew everything about my life that no one else knew, and the same is true for me in regards to him. We also had a straightforward pure connection where we can discuss whatever bothers us or our feelings etc. Finally, and I know I'm writing a book report, let's not forget that the friend zone does not work in reverse either. Much like males, females also befriend men that they are physically attracted to. Most of the time, men may be oblivious to the fact that the girl they thought was a platonic friend has true romantic feelings for them, that he can never reciprocate because he's not attracted to her. I've been there myself. Life is not black and white, there are all these complexities and nuances that don't apply to everyone the same. However, when speaking about real life situations I don't usually deal with the exceptions to the rule. I speak in statistics and generalities because those are indicative of the vast majority.
I've noticed also its about options. If a guy has options of "romantic" partners he is more likely to be able to be just friends with a woman because he isn't desperate for that relationship. As an infp male it's good to have those deep friendships with women to be able to externalize these deep felt emotions.✌
If a guy doesn't have many options, how else is he meant to get partners? He becomes friends hoping that something will develop. What most don't understand is that women, on the whole, don't have that level of maturity. Their decisions are based almost solely on sexual attraction.
As an INFJ, I can identify many things you say. I also get along with women better. Yeah, but there are social obstacles that prevent guys and gals to be friends, which is unfortunate. No I am not a stereotypical man at all. I don’t know how women would see me. I am heterosexual too. Yes, I do wonder sometimes if people think I am gay but I am not. That’s just a stereotype of being gay. Another thing I noticed was that sometimes women would misunderstand my caring as a signal to flirt with them.
If people have to question whether or not you're gay, that's probably a good indicator that you're going to have relationship problems. Women and men alike are going to view you as feminine, weak, friendship material, instead of masculine, strong, leadership material. If that's what you're going for then sure, men and women who share feminine attributes and are not physically attracted to one another can make great friends, but the more feminine the woman, and more masculine the man, the more difficult it'll be to maintain a purely platonic relationship.
I imagine that men and women can be just friends only in the absence of strong sexual attraction, or if both people have positively assimilated their sexuality into their personalities. I've noticed that people who seem to be in harmony with their sexuality are much more at ease with people of the opposite sex, even when attraction is present. It's possible that these people would have an easier time developing emotional vulnerability with someone without experiencing an overwhelming surge of sexual interest. My own relationship with sexuality is confused and troublesome. Sometimes it seems like my sexuality is strongly wired to the part of my brain that processes affection and emotional connection. Other times it seems to be correlated with hate and contempt. In either case it's an intense part of my being that's not found healthy expression. Sexuality is an incredibly strong primal force that impacts so many facets of life. I think it's impossible to answer such a question without thoroughly examining the effects of sexuality in male-female interactions.
@Piece of Sheet your comment sounds like you've had some experience of the turbulent side of being a creative HSP introverted type with a high feeler traits - as far as I've observed it, more gender fluid adolescents tend to get more schtick about being androgynous than most of their peers - so it's a common thing to be unsure about who or how we're attracted to others, from my own experience as (now a grandmother) INFJ in a biological female body. It's all about frisson - that delightful zing you get when you're with another human being without being drunk or high, first - and Clay was discussing 'just friends'... Namaste
As a strong demisexual, it's quite interesting to look at it this way. I haven't actually taken the time to take a step back to get in the shoes of people who struggles with their sexuality and lust. I use the word struggle, I guess, to connect with my own experiences. As you can imagine, I've been on the short end where I hang out with guys and simply enjoy their presence and I hoped they would too, only for them to mention sleeping with me. It almost never fails lol. Even though it's happened multiple times, I never understood why they felt that way other than the fact that men and women are wired completely different.
I love this talk; hats off to you for the courage to step up to this topic. I am an INTJ, but my F side is so close to INXJ that I easily identify with F and I thinkers. Your perspective on this issue is almost word for word my own. I felt that before taking the typing profiler, I was definitely an F. On the other hand, I unconditionally insistent on logic and rationality. I blush easily, and at times it seems irrational to both women and men friends, just as my being the first to tear up does. When younger, I would hide the tears, but on maturing, if anything, it has become unapologetically more profuse. I now know that those who do not miss out on one of the better parts of life. I have been mistaken as gay, but it is almost always by the macho type. When they do, to the point of challenging me, they change their attitudes quickly. I might add here the different types of gay men present no problems for me in recognizing and differentiating them. These issues arise out of all the various gender types. People's expectations are sometimes problematic in childhood. I remember what an intended comment by my aunt had on me. She commented, "Dickie you should have been a girl." Not only did I insist she never call me Dickie again, but I was also deeply hurt by thinking she considers me a sissy. It was I was mistaken about her intention but did not realize it until in my later years. She was just admiring my blue eyes, long eyelashes, and slender form. On the friendship issue, I think this is dependent on the honesty of all that are involved. For honest, well-intended individuals, it will never surface as an unsolvable issue. For those not so fortunate, it is a home breaker. If one senses it is a factor, then that is the time to have a serious conversation. Kudos Clay, this is going to help many who have struggled with the problem.
I'm looking at this video and sorry to say men and women, not friends. It's really simple. For some it's painfully simple. Everybody knows it, but most can't face it.
I can't even begin to tell you how much I was able to relate to what you talk about here, especially as a male INFP. Thankfully, I have a couple of male friends I am very close to and between us there is much less internalized homophobia than between most men, I would say. I also have noticed that I am doing sooooo much better in general with girl friends than with guy friends when it comes to opening up. It's really a shame that I was so much more shy with girls when I was younger, because I honestly could have had a better support system, I think. I have also been asked if I'm gay, but that was more so in high school, actually. Also, I do definitely have a problem with the line between friendship and a romantic relationship when it comes to female friends. I often see the potential in those relationships to be a romantic relationship. What I need to remind myself of sometimes, is that a good friendship is worth equally as much, even if I desire a romantic relationship with someone in general.
I am part of the group who enjoyed having friendships of the opposite sex, some of them moved into a romantic relationship. Others did not and remained friendships, I've had to sacrifice a number of those for my wife who saw things as I should have more male than female friends, which means I've lost some of those friendships who were very near and dear to me. But maybe it's a good thing, as much as I mourn the loss of those friendships alot of those people have really progressed in their relationships and I honestly don't think they even wonder about me anymore, i guess in a way I've kinda died to them.
The same hardships go for me bro. as an INFJ man I think life for us is a bit hard . but I really enjoy being INFJ. it's like I have a superpower others don't have. of course it cost. look at Jordan person bro. being highly emotional isn't a problem at all. he cries even on tv. I use to embrace it too . of course I am straight so the fact I get ashamed of being emotional leads me to a too lonely life. my sister is also INFJ but she doesn't have this problem. after seeing dr. Peterson, I felt good and want to use my blessed forgetting cruse side. speak of the topic. I am good to connect with both women and men with my INFJ blessing. but being friends with women is a questionable thing to me. Because a few times when I created an emotional bond with a female friend I end up having feelings for her. I have to close that friendship entirely and got hurt too, on the other hand, a lot of my female friends ended up having feelings for me. and I have to draw a line for them too. so i am thankful to you for vedio bro I get i idea from this. I really appreciate you.
As an INFJ woman i always resonated more with males than females. And for my ex INFJ he resonated more with females than males i guess for the same reasons you stated about your personal experience. In addition to that, i think the fact that we come from a specific sex gender allows us to figure that gender out at a young age and when we end up not being able to fit into that gender we crave to make relationships with the opposite gender expecting that we can relate more to it. But for me, as I went through all that and could finally figure the male's gender out i found out that I'm not fit in both. I'm just a human being with a balanced features that are supposed to be human features but so called "feminine and masculine".
I as an INFJ woman resonated more with boys in school, somehow this changed recently as I have more female friends now. But I would say there is definitley a tendency towards male friendships
(Hetro infj black male here) I think your surroundings growing up impact how you view of “friendships” . I grew up surrounded by mostly women (single mother, lots of female cousins) so I was kind of always open to talk about my emotions. Naturally I found myself having more female friends than what would’ve considered normal from a young age but then I found myself in this weird middle ground between society’s expectations and how I just am naturally. Now my close friendships are kinda split down the middle but most of them are people who think similar to myself and are open to talking about their feelings regardless of gender. As far as relationships go it’s never really been an issue except in my last one but that was more of a by product of other issues. What you said about the 5 pillars is interesting but it’s never been my experience or my close friends experience... I think we just tend to gravitate to people who are like minded... how you were raised and you environment are the biggest factors I think. I just kind of asked why a lot and rejected a lot of society’s stereotypes because it just didn’t make sense.
I think the question itself is flawed. If you notice that no matter what gender you are interacting with, man to man woman to woman and woman to man, you run into the same kind of question. Can people, just be friends? I believe this is the exact same question, and when you ask it this way, it is easy to see how silly the question is. A person is a far more complicated creature than it's Gender or Sex. Agree? So to use a high order abstraction like a man or a woman would be making this unfathomable complicated human, & making it into a stick figure, with appropriate genitals. If we are going to ask a question that leads to any clarity. We can't ask the question using such low-resolution concepts. Reducing the human to their gender, then trying to derive any form of truths from it is silly. So instead you have to look at an individual and their state of consciousness, psychological development, behaviour patterns and etc.... on and on. Then determine if that particular person, can interact with the gender they are attracted to, and just be friends. So you ground the question in something more real, like the nuanced, complex person, then ask if they can do this or that with the high order abstraction of gender. Or even keep it all real, and take pairs of people both by their individual existence. But even if you do ask the question in high order abstractions, it would make more sense to think of it as: Can people just be friends with those they find attractive.
I would agree in a perfect world. However the research is clear that men are raised in a certain way and women are raised in another. It’s hard or almost impossible for most people to abandon this cultural programming.
Honestly (and I know I'm going to be hated for saying this), I find this idea of gender, and the whole "stripping men and women of their obvious physical and psychological differences" just silly. A man and a woman are built differently, and that can't be changed. It doesn't mean that one of them should be superior, or that they should be treated differently in every aspect. But equality and fairness doesn't go well with self-denial either. I hope people would realise that, and be open minded and fair to themselves and others. Then they would work with what humankind have, instead of wishing and dreaming.
I'm a female, and I had a friendship with another female which failed miserably. We used to be bestfriends, but she had been having romantic feelings toward me. I never felt the same way towards her. So, I agree with you about asking the question can two people just be friends.
@@ClayArnall Culture is not a stagnant phenomenon. It evolves and adapts just like any other living entity on this planet. If culture did not shift women would not be driving and going to school. We would still be racially segregated and the church would be the ruling government. There would be no scientific development and no new music, art, fashion and foods. Change is slow but it happens. There are still many scars left over from the past that many of us are still struggling with ( racism, sexism, homophobia etc.) It is not inherent that men and women can't be friends while both have distorted interpersonal relationships with each other and themselves although this does make it complicated and difficult as you explained. But the solution is to raise the new generation differently as you are with your son. We don't have to pass down the flaws of this gender system to the new generation. Many younger people are critical and aware of the faults in civilization some people may never change their way but let us hope and support that those who do will prevail.
Infj guy here who likes to have many "less intimate" friendships AND a few close intimate friendships, who often (but not always) tend to be women. I feel really fulfilled with all my friendships of different types, and don't really feel the need to have any one "real" relationship
Me too. Some guys have tried to be mean and say I'm gay but I literally don't care - I get on better with women. I've slept with about 40 women in my life, more than most of them I bet but I also have platonic female friendships. Why deny the opportunity to have great friendships.
1. When people ask this question, I always wonder how non-straight couples deal with this without much issue. No one goes around questioning if a gay man can be friends with another man or a pansexual person can have any friends. 2. I think it can be done with the caveat of having clear and consistent boundaries and communication. My boundaries with my partner include being able to have friendships with whomever I choose, but also making him aware of those friendships and being aware and sensitive to his definition of "crossed boundaries" with friendships. And vice-versa. With friends, it is being aware that forming some sort of romantic feelings can happen, and if it does, on either end, and it is too difficult to manage, than it is okay to take a break from or end the friendship without hard feelings, but probably with some sadness. Also, understanding and respecting which actions are considered romantic and which aren't by both you and your friend is necessary. Those are the same general rules that I operate by when I make friends with a woman who turns out to be attracted to women (which I am not). That said, I try to make it is clear as humanly possible to a man from whom I only want friendship that friendship is all I want from first spending time together but don't always feel I have to be as explicit with women even if I know they are attracted to other women.
From an INTJ woman, here is my perspective: I've been using this metaphor lately.. I am my sun. The center of my own "universe" as such there are many planets who I provide my energy to. Some are closer to me some are far away. But not a single planet is the center of my universe. If I were to make my job as the center of my universe, and suddenly lost it, then my whole identity would be lost as well. Even though romantic relationships are important, I don't make it my center of my universe. I also cultivate other hobbies and deep meaningful connections and friendships with others regardless of the gender or age. In this case, If I were to lose a romantic relationship, then my identity wouldn't be lost and would still have plenty of support to go through the pain without being completely isolated. Life is so much more.. why not appreciate the beauty and complexity of it all? I understand the danger of being close to an opposite sex person while being in a relationship. However, honest intent and communication must be present. Direct communication is something I highly value and respect. If I had problems or issues in a romantic relationship, then I must look inward instead of looking outward and seek for validation with other people. Since I am my "sun", self-love is vital in order to keep things going. Hope you liked this little trip to my inner world🚀 wish you much success in your journey. Please keep this content going! I just subscribed.
Hey Clayton, I'm about half way through your video and as a mature student within the social work and community development departments, just wanted to let you know that according to the Mayo clinic, women are about twice as likely as men to experience depression actually. Yes there are a lot of gender expectations and stereotypes that still exist. Sometimes we even hold them within ourselves without consciously realizing until they are challenged. For example, I am learning that I was more fixated on marriage and kids when I was younger than my other female friends. I assumed most women were that way but as I got older, I learned that is not always the case. As far as the vulnerability, really depends on the women. I know a lot of women personally that don't like being vulnerable because it makes them feel out of control. They love helping others but not necessarily admitting they need help themselves. I'll continue watching.
I'm an INFJ (22M), and almost all but one of my close friendships have been with women. Someone else's comment perfectly articulated my struggle with one particular female friend, who I mistakenly thought I liked in a romantic way. I wasn't used to that level of emotional closeness and intimacy in my male friendships, so I leaned into that friendship way too strongly and misinterpreted what was just a friendship with her. We are still amazingly close friends now, and she knows I had feelings (or at least I thought I did) for her back then, but I've been able to make some other close friends as well to avoid "putting all my eggs in one basket" which include one other female friend and a male friend. Although keep in mind when I talk about "putting all my eggs in one basket", I'm referring to the traditionally feminine role of giving emotional support rather than requiring it solely from her. I have and always will naturally be a giver not a taker when it comes to this sort of thing in close relationships with other people. Anyway, with this friend (she is an INFP for context), she didn't really have any other close friends with men or women, and so I almost felt like her sole source of emotional support which essentially meant our roles as a man and woman were reversed. She struggles to open up and be vulnerable and so I invested a large amount of my time and energy into coaxing that out of her. I would say the reality of male friendships for INFJ men is pretty bleak most of the time, but you can come across a rare man who provides what you've always had to seek out women for, and that bond will be one of the strongest you'll ever have for your entire life. You don't have to worry about the nature of that friendship changing with new relationships or circumstances such as marriage, and while some may interpret it as a gay relationship, what matters isn't necessarily what others perceive but rather what you know it to be yourselves. My current close male friend (ESTJ), is emotionally vulnerable with me sometimes but we have a very push-and-pull type friendship that doesn't feel like what I just described. He's the closest man in my life right now and I love him as a friend, but he definitely struggles to understand me a lot of the time which means it's not quite as fulfilling as I want it to be, but it's better than nothing. I'm only 22 so I have time, but I'm hoping I meet a man soon who reflects these qualities I need in a close friendship. Lastly, I also just wanted to point out, that because almost all my close friends are women currently, it actually acts as a deterrant for any women acutally romantically interested in me, as they think I'm already interested in one of these friends. So the sooner I can find this ideal male friend the better, as my chances at finding a partner will almost certaintly increase exponentially the moment I do. Anyway thanks for the amazing video. I almost related exactly to your experience of making friends as an INFJ man.
Depends on their personalities, culture, physical attraction, mental connection, emotional connection, religion, goals, values, vision.... etc. I like your channel 👍 keep up the good discussions. Food for my INFJ mind. Merry Christmas!🎄🎄🎄 By the way: emotional men are attractive, society can suck it.
What do you mean by emotional men? Because men who get angry quickly are emotional, right? But I don't think that is something you like, right? There are also alot of women who think men around them are (emotionally draining), so it doesn't seem emotional men who can't deal with their emotions and always need others are that attractive.
The answer is yes, I dated a guy as a teenager and we became friends after we broke up, it has now been over 25 years of a platonic frienship. We have given each other relationship advice over the years to get the opinion of the opposite sex. Having said that it has caused problems with partners over the years they can't believe it's only platonic. I think my answer to why it works is that we had the romance early on and found it didn't work so it put that to rest. I am an INFJ female, I don't know what my friend is but he is definitely an introvert, he is also not that type of guy to try his luck and I think that has probably helped too. So in our case yes men and women can have platonic friendships for many years.
11:08 r/meirl OR r/2meirl4meirl 11:21 We're not friends with other men so we can cry on each other shoulder... we're friends with men because we genuinely trust each other, because we share the same values, because we're interested in similar stuff and because we know no one cares about emotional outbursts (unless it's rage) 19:48 I was a first child a was treated like a frickin king... yet since I remember I absolutely hated stuff like cuddling, kissing, etc. OR when someone acted "too emotionally" around me, doesn't matter if it was another kid, parents or other people... it was extremely uncomfortable and it was pissing me off... 22:41 Exactly... it's never "just friendship"... if the female friend would offer sex or relationship, 99,999 % of male friends would agreed to it... and that's not "just a friend"... and you, as a man, won't willingly befriend only completely unattractive women just to make sure nothing will ever happen between you even if offered
Living in The Middle East. Friendships between men and women are taboo In the lower Economic Group,women ,married or not,risk being murdered if found alone with a man. Personally I prefer men’s company and have shared many sensitive emotions with them but this was easier when living in the U.K. From personal experience have found Gay men more in tune with women,extremely sensitive and lots of fun My Brother was an homosexual man and women adored him He was invited to escort many to parties etc and was so fun and open It was difficult growing up as my Father,a Military man,gave him Hell and belittled him badly whereas my Mother adored him Sorry for rambling on
I’m new to learning I’m an INFJ and I can relate to you regarding being more compatible woman due to my emotional depth. Being in my 50’s, it’s hard meeting guys. I have had woman friends over the years but only keep in contact with the happily married ones. Unfortunately, any time a woman has come into my life and we are upfront about not being able to date in agree we’re in same place of emotional healing so not ready for relationship. Nice learned, others don’t think and have depth of INFJ. I’ve learned many inconvenient truths on personal traits and am grateful to have learned and found some good people who are like myself. Thanks for sharing
Yes I totally relate to you on this. I never really had real male friends. And the fact I went to an all boys high school it made me quite lonely as a person
Thou an ENFP, I watch your videos for your introverted wisdom…”It all depends is” is a great way to start a new male/female relationship slowly to avoid getting too sexual to soon. Thanks again for your insight Clay…..C’ndy
You’ve kind of framed the “friend zone” in a different light. It’s quite interesting. I was friends with a guy in high school. I considered him only a friend and didn’t see until many years later, as an adult, that he liked me more than that. I never understood how he could see that relationship as more than just friends but you just explained it. He wasn’t used to getting that kind of emotional depth in a friendship so he put greater meaning on it. While I’ve always shared that amount of emotional intimacy with all of my friends so I saw it no different to those.
I’ve had the same experience.
Men need to open up emotionally to have their emotional needs met, like any other person, without fear of losing masculinity.
I fully get this..
@@isishathor1238 if men open up they will become trash in women's eyes regardless what they say to comfort him...so nope.
then surely you'd know that even platonic friendships can end. It's not a big deal.
I just adore that a man will actually go and think this deeply on a subject and then discuss it. Thank you. Merry Christmas 🎄
EXACTLY! ^_^
@@violindalola Yes, what a gift and on Christmas:?)
While I was always too shy to try and form relationships with women who I was sexually attracted to I get along with women better than men. I have mostly women for friends. For the record I'm male.
In Africa, as a Man, you have to be strong and bottle up your emotions, which makes most men see emotional closeness from a lady as romance. We are really starved emotionally over here, that we drink and form strong outside but cry in secrets. Our culture about men is so strong, as an INFJ guy I need to fake things outside to escape the mockery. That's why I won't want a friendship with a lady because I will rely on her and make it romantic, I would rather find one who wants a romantic one with me and then I open up.
Hello, are you a Nigerian? I am and INFJ too
@@ugbeneumari9370 Yes I am
You are going to make some woman very happy one day 💕
I'm sorry to hear that. I must say very INFJ of you to realize this about your friendships with women. I do wish you the best and I hope you know regardless of what your culture says you are a man whether you show emotions or not. Don't let their messed up beliefs stop you from being who you are. Hope the right lady finds you.
@@mara.j Thank you, I appreciate your kind words
I have found it challenging to be friends with guys as it has become emotional labor because guys are so starved emotionally because of lack of proper human connection with other guys. Due to social stigma and culture. Sad. Its overburdening women and it becomes a codependant relationship.. ( sorry for my bad English)
I think the problems you seem to be having comes from yourself.
You seem to be complicating your own role in a casual relationship.
Do you try to "fix" your friends, male or female, do you give "advice" just because some-one tells you about a problem they may be having.
Quite often people talk about a problem to you just to sort things out in their own mind. They usually are not really involving you, they are verbally expressing the problem and that can help some people.
The language you use is either condescending or even abusive. To you guys are "...emotionally starved", have "lack of proper human connection", living with "Social stigma and culture". Where are you and who is it you are considering to be your "friends" - aliens?
According to you men are "...over burdening women...co-dependent relationship..." Too much jargon to be genuine. Just my opinion. Perhaps leave men alone - they'll be ok with the right woman. Just my opinion.
@@ladybug591 In regards to the advice thing, if I can think of some way they may be able to improve their situation, I’ll give my advice. They don’t need to take it if they don’t want to. I just want to share some advice because I care about them.
@@ladybug591 As for the second part of your paragraph, you’re neglecting the fact this is still very prevalent and there’s as many dudes being forced to fit the toxic masculine stereotype and repress their emotions as there are guys who are emotionally mature enough to avoid being emotionally draining for some people - not just women. This isn’t just men who lack that emotional maturity and have an inability to make healthy human connections, but it’s more likely more boys at a young age to learn to bottle up their emotions because of this toxic stereotype. I’m a woman who was bullied as a child and learnt the harmful habit of bottling up my emotions, so I’m an example of a victim who gained some of these problems because of bullying throughout my childhood.
Not my experience, as a guy. I have few friends, but those friends are more nuanced than nearly every woman I've spent time with. Not making any larger assumptions or generalizations there, but I do believe that men of a more artistic or sensitive nature tend enjoy the companionship of other men for certain reasons, and women for others. It's not that these reasons are mutually exclusive; any woman I've spoken to that I can talk to for hours (and enjoy myself) is such a blessing. I've only dated one woman that was on that level, and unfortunately I was too young and inexperienced to really understand how valuable she was.
Yes, I find myself always supporting, and understanding these guys.
There is help for them with education
to set them straight. I'm good for guys like this. Yep the generations that destroyed the Boy's confidence and made ignorant
I do what I can because I understand.
I have two gay sons with Aspergers and a Covert Narcissist father.
I had two brothers with Aspergers,
Also my son's friends.
I have to remind my youngest that I can't
help some people.
Men seem “available “ to their sisters and mothers. So, they enjoy the connection. Women are looking for emotional connection, in most relationships. Society, has caused the disconnect. The best/long lasting/ honest, relationships.... are those that “allow” true and honest exchange of human experience..which is not, based on what”Sex” you are. Connection is based on open mindedness and compassion/empathy.
Agree
Why be emotionally available to women we don't share a blood line with unless we're trying to create a bloodline together? Stop denying human nature.
My personal take is generally females can have platonic friendship with males but not the other way around. It seems a male's friendship with a female has a certain level or sexual attraction undertone(could be high or low) , but a female can close to completely have none attraction to a male and has no problem having a platonic friendship.
Yes and women kid themselves or are outright dishonest when they say “I never thought he was interested in me”
They know, and like the attention.
Holy shit, why doesn't this video have more views? It felt like you were speaking out of my mind in the beginning. And the second part of the video was so clear and understandable, I never heard these complex topics laid out so concise.
There's always been sexual interest when men wanted to spend time with me. If I wanted to be just a friend with men, they never had time for me. Even if we had common interests and could have a good time together.
Edit: Things have changed in the past year and a half, I don't know if it's been pushed into using the Internet more for interaction, I hadn't used SM at all before, but I now have male friends, who are 'just' friends, and it means a lot. The funny thing is that one of them thought that it was I who was romantically attracted to him and that would've been a problem. So I am glad to report that I have friendships with members of the opposite sex.
Because women as a whole abused the friend zone for orbiter validation, free labor, and a backup partner plan.
@@joelcoley2606 yeah, that's why men as a whole got together and had a pact to never be friends with me 😂 please
The term “friend zone” comes off as such an entitled stance to me. It seems to suggest that a romantic/sexual relationship is being “withheld” from someone who is undeserving of such “rejection.”
Nobody owes anyone a specific intimate connection, and consent is fluid. A person solely experiencing platonic feelings towards another isn’t committing some kind of act of aggression.
Also, any gender can take advantage of someone by leading them on, which is messed up, but ultimately the onus is on an individual to mind their own boundaries.
Exactly my experience so I just stick to women and its great lol
@@illigirl768 Yes, women are great (can't say I didn't pursue any sexual interest with them in the past 😂 - only half-joking). I guess I have always envied a men's camaraderie in a group and wanted to be part of it. Well, I was recently told that not all men have that kind of experience either. I also found that you could have a different kind of conversations with men, having said that as time goes on I have those conversations with women now. So all good 🙂
It’s interesting as an INFJ female having more guy friends than girls. I think I resonate more with the males in the study rather than females.
Same here! I am an INFJ female and prefer opposite sex friendships. I think for me the reason is I am not emotional enough to connect with most stereotypical women (as they expect another woman to be on the same level) so it's easier to connect with (stereotypically less emotional) guys, for whom I still seem quite emotional.
That's a very good observation @YJ Klee - makes me wonder if that's also why we INFJ hetero wimmin get more cattiness from other (coupled up) women until they actually get past their own issues around 'our' value as human beings first. Downside is, yes, typical hyper-masculinised guy friends will, as @Clay Arnall suggests, eventually hit on the INFJ gal pal if they don't have a strong boundaried relationship from the outset. INFJ females are kinda sweet yet tough all at the same time?
I have had similar experiences.
@@MarlaJaneNZ perfectly stated. Something I’m going thru right now with some of my guy friends’ and their girlfriends “not liking” me based off very surface level judgements.
Same here!
I grew up in a culture and religion where it's considered almost a sin for a man and a woman to hangout alone as friends unless they're married. In school and college I used to get very nervous when a guy tried talking to me . One time my mom saw my neighbor, a guy, trying to talk to me outside our home .. She yelled at me and slapped me across my face so hard, It felt like I literally lost my ear
Do you think it is safe though to hang out alone?
A big percentage of rape is done by (friends) and acquaintance..
DAMN!
I think that a man can be emotionally available and be straight. It depends on the heart of the person and not just gender. Much love to you and all bro
The idealist in me wants to say 'yes,' men and women can and should be able to be just friends...But, of course, life in reality is much more complicated and nuanced than that...Good friends of either sex are hard to find...
Deffo agree there 🖤
the world needs more secure straight men like you
Yes. One of my best friends was a guy. He said he'd been seeing a neurologist because he started having seizures out of the blue, and it scared him. They didn't figure things out in time, and sadly he died in his sleep only in his his early 30's. I miss him so much. Never had any romantic interest in each other, which always confused the women in his life "you've never even kissed!?" No dude, we are not like that. It was like he was my brother or even my dad in a past life lol our birthdays were only days apart but he was 2 years older. I could always trust him and we could talk about any and everything. Always gave me great advice, and looked out for me. Also loved his pets and spoiled them so. A handyman, a builder, a very peaceful, patient and wise soul that was good to everyone - even people who were assholes to him. I'd get pissed for him and tell the people off lol I'd ask "how are YOU not mad?" And he'd say "I think of it as they did me a favor by showing their true colors, and they're not worth the fuss so I turn the other cheek." He loved life and had a quiet confidence that people gravitated towards. He was just too good for this world. Love you, Tex!!!
You made me cry. I wish for your friend to rest in peace. He is an example of how of not just every man but every human should be. 😢🥺😭🌹
There are exceptions to every rule.
Sorry for your loss, thanks for sharing
@@emanuelmota7217 And how are we to surmise it as a rule?
@@FactStorm That is the premise. Pay attention.
Let me help you out Clay. INFJ 26M
1 - Do I resonate more with women struggles? Yes and no. I never get approached by women, but I want a deep long term connection(I guess that's called a woman struggle?) I don't know actually, never thought about it. Let's go with no, hehe..
2- I don't want to appear gay? Yes, in the past I was afraid to be myself because people called me gay, soft or a pus***. Not anymore, people know I am sensitive, feminine and whatever and they still think I'm gay or bisexual. I've overcome the fear of judgement regarding my sexual orientation. Keep in mind, I've never doubted my sexuality no matter how much I juggle feminine and masculine within me. Never. Nada
3- Yes, because of my 6feet and muscly figure and "intimidating(their words) I am expected to be the typical man, not open up, be tough and bla bla blaaaaaaaa
4- I think because I've always tried to fit in, I've developed a lot of my masculine side and ignored the feminine one and meditation helped overcome this and obv realise it
5- I've always felt attracted to very feminine women, I'm not sure yet is because I lack in it or it relaxes the feminine side in me so I can be more masculine and therefore feel better?
6- Can women and men just be friends? As much as I would like to say YES, from my experience is a clear NO, but IT DEPENDS, lol. I'll go with NO. That doesn't make it true. It's my experience within my level of awareness.
I've tried to keep it as short as possible because duuude there so much more to say, but here we go, I hope it helps.
thanks for the comment!
Wow, I think this is the best video I have come across on whether men and women can be just friends. The answer really as you have said is, it depends... I agree typical man and typical woman, nah, this friendship is mostly likely to develop into a relationship. But man with some 'feminine ' attributes and woman with some 'masculine' attributes are most likely to be just friends. I want to say that these are more like the 'in between' gender for lack of a better term.
I am not a typical woman in that I don't particularly have typical girl interests like hair,makeup and nails and stuff so I resonate more with men who mostly prefer highly intellectual conversations, rational and logical stuff. I have a good number of wonderful male friends but have had to cut off those who wanted more than friendship.
I have guy friends that I'm just friends with, but I don't spend time alone with them if either of us are in a relationship. It's not because I think that there would be anything physical. It's just because I wouldn't want to be disrespectful to my significant other or theirs. Also, I make sure that I don't say anything to my male friends that I wouldn't want their significant other to hear.
the men in my life, my friends, have done more for me emotionally than my male family members or exes. Because of their caring and love, with no expectations of romance or sex, I can actually recognize emotionally stable men. I think friendships are really important between men and women.
28:10 really love this part. The most distressing part about the argument that men and women can never be friends is that it means I would have to cut off some of my best friends that have added so much to my life simply because they're women. It all depends, as you said, and I wish more people had that viewpoint. Nothing is black and white, relationships of any kind are a grey area. Men and women can absolutely be great friends, it all depends on intentions and boundaries.
I so relate to becoming friends with a guy, us being vulnerable and open, and then him interpreting this closeness as being romantic, whereas I see it as the way I am with any other friend. This is probably exactly why women often, from the get go, categorize men as having sexual/romantic intentions, because it so often becomes that when the walls come down and both parties become very open with one another. We learn, with time, that it is almost impossible. Which sucks. Because i LOVE men. I wish I'd have more guy friends. They bring different perspectives, ways of reacting to events, views. But... shit always hits the fan 🤷♀️ Sigh...
I have a question. How do males and females bond with each other? I don't see how men and women can bond (especially romantically) with each other. Men and women think very differently from each other.
Women can build incredible friendships and become very close to each other in a way men can't bond, and science shows that women can bond very well with each other. Generally, women are even more social than men are. After something bad happens, a woman quickly rushes to talk to all of her female friends to get support, whereas a man can isolate himself and grief alone.
Women tend to be more emotional, more caring, more empathic, more compassionate, more affectionate, more loyal, more nurturing, more understanding, more sympathetic, more sensitive, more kind-hearted, more peaceful, more calmer, more gentle, more expressive, more intuitive, and more outward than men are, and thus bond more with other women in a special way that they can’t with men. Men, on the other hand, are not that emotional, and thus can’t bond with other men in a special way.
Women are more comfortable being around with other women than they are with men. They have a type of bond that usually men with women won’t really have, or with men and men. Also, girls that are friends touch each other in ways that guys just don’t.
@@velzehsedam2060 I heard that lesbian relationships are healthier because they understand each other. If both partners understand each other, they won’t want to break up with each other. I also heard that women have higher rates of depression when married (in straight relationships). There is a very small percent of women that are happy in heterosexual relationships.
So it's very hard for men and women to bond with each other and have a strong bond with each other. Both men and women think differently, behave differently, react in a different way.
@@velzehsedam2060 Many people in straight relationships tend to hate each other. A LOT of men in straight relationships tend to make jokes about how they hate their wife.
@@velzehsedam2060 Women feel a lot safer in general with other women than they do with men if either is alone with each other, and it is easier for women to trust other women more than it is to trust a man.
Men are usually much lonelier than women are. Men don't often talk about their personal problems with their male friends like how women do with their female friends. Females produce a lot more oxytocin than males do. And that's a reason why women tend to hug a lot more and be a lot more physically affectionate than men do.
Most daughters have a very strong bond with their mother, while they don’t have one with their father, and most sons don’t have that strong of a bond with neither their mother nor their father. Most females have a very strong bond with their sisters, while they don’t have one with their brothers, and most males don’t have that strong of a bond with neither their sisters nor their brothers.
A big reason why many women hope to have a daughter instead of a son when they are trying to get pregnant is for the experiences one doesn't get with a son, like shopping for her prom dress together or going for mother/daughter manicures. In many cases as a girl grows up, she becomes closer to her mother whereas boys aren't generally as close with their parents. And also, it's also harder for females to bond with their brothers than it is with their sisters for the exact same reasons.
The bond that two females have with each other is the strongest bond of them all, and that's one of the reasons why sayings like “girls always have to stick together” exist. The friendship of males and females can hardly be as good as a female to a female relationship from a woman’s point of view. How can a man and woman have a special strong type of bond with each other if women have a special strong type of bond with each other while men don’t have one with each other?
I had many very close female friends in my younger years. Friendship with women doesn’t contain any competition, which is usually the case between men (usually unspoken competition, but it’s there). Friendships with women usually end when the woman meets a partner, especially after the age of 30. There can also arise attraction from one side in the friendship with women, which makes it difficult. In my case, the women wanted a romantic relationship with me.
In Ethiopia men walk hand by hand
As a symbol of their friendship and love for each other
Do you mean as a "gay" friendship?
Billy Crystal explained this succinctly in the famous movie, “When Harry Met Sally”. Men view sex as a pleasurable activity, so they can have sex with many different partners and it doesn't have to involve emotional commitment. Of course, it’s always better if there is some connection, but for guys that’s not necessary. On the other hand, women view sex as an expression of love due to oxytocin.
I'd say I made the mistake of having less boundaries with a gay man, and he confused me because his intentions seemed like he was sexually interested but he denied it. Things got weirder and weirder. Too much touching. Trust me, don't just blindly trust gay men either. Sometimes they violate too many boundaries too. I don't think he was into me, I think he was in emotional pain so his behaviors reflected romantic interest. Not generalizing, just look for red flags.
I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I believe SOME men have decided to be gay because they aren't comfortable being the sexual aggressor. They may feel intimidated by women. But if they have a good female friend then that pressure is gone, they feel comfortable with that friend they may start to make moves. This is something I have experienced first hand myself. People are individuals and do things for different drivers.
@@blueyedenigma5010 You're not wrong. He did say he was in love with me. He would pretend he didn't remember kissing me. It was so frustrating I ended the friendship. He'd pull that crap all the time. Yes, agreed it happens in rare situations.
I've been in this situation as well, but as a guy. My family's oldest friend is gay, so I grew up integrated in that regard and have never had any hangups about hanging with gay guys. But my best friend back in high school came out by admitting be wanted to have sex with me. Couldn't hang out with him after that, though I tried. Felt like complete betrayal of all the time I spent with him. I don't have friends that are girls (unless they're lesbian, in which case the bassist from my last band and her gf are good friends of mine) for the same reason. It seems two-sided to be around someone that's waiting for their opportunity to get with you because you're wondering what they're hiding from you, and it's too distracting to make the conversation natural.
I am an INFJ man and basically everything you said resonates with me, from the homophobia, being on the female side in some readings about relationships, and masculinity, I definitly think we had different upbringings and it shows. Growing up I had a very tough father who taught me to be alot more cold to the people I am close to while my mother was the complete opposite. So I was definitely torn in the middle and confused on how I should feel. Making me see the differences and think about "how I should feel" in every relationship I have. I do find myself trying to pull emotions out of people rather than them pull them out of me, some other things that's some people could consider manipulative and learned this definitly isnt the best and decided to hold myself back from doing these things. not too sure what you said about some illness, I'll have to watch more of your videos.
I have come across this video, and I am in the exact issue in my life. I believe I have part of an answer as well. The difference for me is my female friendship came out of us actually did date for a couple of years, but that was about 10 years ago. A few years later, after we broke up. We started talking as friends. We are yes very good friends, but the beautiful lady I am in a relationship with today does have a lot of trouble with it. I feel she is very jealous of the situation. I swear to her all the time we are truly strictly just friends. I would not cheat. I was cheated on in my first marriage. I truly know what that feels like as well. Than You very much for making this video, it is a confusing issue in life today. It all comes down to trust, which is what every relationship has to have as a foundation for it to truly be something as special as it can be. I would trust another person in a reverse situation if they provided they were trustworthy. Times have changed, people need to accept the changes we all have caused today....
I think everyone should see this video! I currently have no male friends & have been dropped from all of them throughout my life. It hurts because I thought we were truly friends & it had nothing to do with romantic interest. Now I see why they may be so hurt and are unable to continue the friendship.
Interesting. I’m an INFJ female but have no desire for close friendships and don’t have any. I prefer the surface level friendship, mainly kept on the internet only. I like my partner to be my sole source of support outside of myself.
How has that been working for you? Being dependent on one person for all your emotional needs could be a gamble imo.
…
I am an INFJ. I am the only girl in a family of 3 older brothers. I also now have 2 sons (one’s an INFJ the other is INFP). I’ve always been able to have better relationships with men than women, bc most women seem to become competitive, manipulative or jealous. However, I do practice careful boundaries with men friends, bc I value their whole world of relationships. I am mindful to include their wives, or gfs in conversations. I stay out of meddling in their lives and keep topics on what are similarities we share. I value their thoughts and opinions, and I hope in exchange, they value mine.
What you mentioned about males being less nurtured during adolescence than females reminds me of the archetype "mama's boy". Because I remember males during childhood being called that when they were wanting emotional support and was displayed in front of their peers. Society I feel just wants us to suffer in my opinion thats why we are more isolated than ever and communication is lacking even though we are now "more connected than ever due to technology, but that doesn't yield towards healthy emotional intimacy.
Moma's boy here. Society does not have a brain and therefore can not want. We are responsible for where society goes. So we try to head it in a direction that everyone needs.
Nah mamas boy is a thing. There are too many mothers who put their sons on a pedestal and shame their daughters all the time dont try to ignore it and act like it isn't a thing
@@missfefeloves I never said a true "mamas boy" was not a thing. What I am saying is that men are afraid to express emotions due to societal standards and it hurts society in the end. And actually yes my mother actuallu did put my brother on a pedestal because he was the first born son which he got away with alot of things growing up. I am Nigerian American and that is how alot of Nigerian households work. I see the gaps and missteps in parenting which is to allow boys to express their emotions, BUT that does not mean to put them on a pedestal. Teach them to be compassionate humans just like we teach that for girls. THAT is what I am trying to say.
@@violindalola
So you think being a mama's boy is a bad thing, right?
Bit it seems like those mama's boys are the ones that are allowed to express their emotions the most, right?
So why are those mama's boys hated?
You said your brother got away with alot of things, but if we ask him, don't you think he will say that you also got a way with alot of things and that you were put on a pedestal?
Because generally smaller sisters and brothers want attention from their parents, so they are very prone to being jealous if they felt that the attention to them isn't enough.
@@MA-gu2up In my parents culture (Nigerian), girls were not given any slack. He was the first born son and treasured. Also my brother raped me from age 4 to 7. He literally could get away with murder growing up with him we were 5 years apart. We were left alone alot while my parents worked 3 jobs so barely any supervision. He held knives to my face. As we got older I was never allowed to go anywhere. When I got accepted into college, my parents said if I went they would disown me, because my brother did not finish college yet and I was about to start. I went anyways and they stopped talking to me for 2 years.
Also I never said being a mamas boy was a bad thing. You misread all what I said in my first post.
Hello Clay, I wanted to thank you for the content you make. I am young and asking myself tons of questions, your videos are really helping me answer them and are helping me to truly understand myself. It seems like you've already lived through what I'm living through and hearing what you've learned really helps me progress faster in my quest of understanding and improving myself.
Me too sadly we don't have teachers as great as him and with this amount of wisdom in our own living place
Coming back to the original question: 23:17
Hey Clay, awesome topic to discus. Regarding your question on infj feeling like they relate to the women in the study. I find myself relating to women more just like you. I'm a straight male but have only 3 close guys friends everyone else is a women. Guys seem boring to me. I still to this day find it wild that there is someone out there that is exactly like me, even if we have had different upbringings. You are almost like a mentor to me at this point since you are a couple years older.
Expand your male group, they are out there. Perhaps not as many as we would like but look for them. I will make your life more significant.
As I've grown up, I feel like I've gotten more and more female friends.
When I was younger I had One female friend who was/is essentially like a sister to me, so I never developed feelings for her.
When I was adolescent, I was more interested in girls in a more romantic way, and there was always an underlying question of "are we gonna date?" and during those years I was "friend zoned" a lot more, because I couldn't be honest to the girls I was interested in.
Now I'm 30, and I feel like those thrashing hormonal instincts have calmed down a lot more.
Right now I'm sort of looking at what kind of person someone is; if they're a woman and I think we have a "romantic" chemistry, I'm not going to be friends with them first and foremost, I'm going to see how romantically interested they are in me.
With that being said, like mentioned before, I'm also getting more and more female friends who I have no romantic interest in, and who I really only see as Real Friends.
I'm sort of measuring the "chemistry" when I first meet someone (man or woman), and if I get "Friend Chemistry" vibes from them, I'm going to be their platonic friend, the gender doesn't matter then.
I *am* INFJ, and as many people of my type know, it's hard to find people you vibe with just in general, so I'm just happy if there's *any* mutual chemistry at all to be honest. People are their interests, sense of humor, intelligence, kindness and virtues and flaws first, and their gender second.
So, how do you distinguish romantic from friend chemestry?
Hey! Loved this video. Thankyou for shining your light and showing other men that they can be vulnerable and open. I think you would get on with my male friends, they are very similar to you. They’re sensitive, they have emotional hugs when they’re feeling sad, and they talk about their feelings. These men do exist and I personally find these qualities in men super sexy!! I couldn’t be with a man that didn’t have these qualities. It is indeed very sad the expectations our culture puts on men. Your son is lucky to have you, perhaps you should consider home schooling. I would say that if your partner has an opposite sex friend, it is super important that you and your partner can establish some boundaries around physical intimacy especially. Your partner should also make an effort to include you in that friendship sometimes, and make an effort to listen to your fears and make you feel reassured and comfortable. Trust them until they give you a reason not to!
When my children were young I met a stay-at-home Dad at our community playgroup. We became fast friends and both our families became good friends. There were never any romantic feelings between us because we were not attracted to each other in that way. Maybe we were too similar. But we would get funny looks when we would take our kids on activities together. I’m sure that people thought that there was something inappropriate going on. Nope.
Yeah it’s a shame really and something I go through as a dad who has his kids a lot. Not a ton of people to hangout with because most dads are at work and many mother’s see it as slightly inappropriate to spend time together. There are of course exceptions like yourself :)
@@ClayArnall Of course, having said that, I have had the opposite experience, more than once. I tend to look at people as individuals and assume that I can be a friend to a man with no problems. However, it has gotten me into sticky situations where I have had to fight off physical advances. So, yeah, it definitely depends on the person.
Thank you for addressing the issue.
I've always been naturally drawn to friendship with men, since my childhood years. As an INFJ I have a natural desire to develop deep and meaningful relationships with people, regardless of their gender. A couple of times it was mistaken for kind of romantic interest, and even now I still discover that some of my male friends were in love with me, simply because I always was there for them. You're right, emotional unavailability has been imposed on men long ago, but luckily things are starting to change.
I also noticed how a sibling's gender can affect a child's development, there 's no direct correlation, but all guys I know who have sisters tend to be more caring and sensitive.
What do you think about it?
P. S. I think pink looks great on you, and in general pink looks great on men, too bad this beautiful color fell victim to another misconception.
As a woman, I have been stung too many times by befriending straight men and then finding out after I started to lower my guard that he has been trying to date me/seduce me. I will then reaffirm that I was seeking friendship and then they stop talking to me. I don’t LIKE that I am instantly suspicious of straight men, but I have learned that I have to be.
Just recently one of my closest friends (who happens to be a straight man) blind sided me in the middle of a group hangout telling me that he’s believes he has been in love with me for months. It was horrible. I had allowed myself to trust him completely and then he sprung that on me. I turned him down, but it ruined the entire friendship because it left me feeling wary of all of our one-on-one interactions.
Point of consideration - I've observed that physical contact/sharing emotions between men is vastly different between certain countries/cultures. Would be interesting to see how this affects these studies between men & womens friendships.
INFJ male here. I think you did a good job answering this question. It really depends on the situation and the people involved. If happy and satisfied in your relationship, sure a female friend is fine, given certain conditions. If you’re not happy/satisfied, then that new friendship can feel much better than what you’re in and naturally you’ll fantasize what it would be like if you switched. So that’s all kind of understood but you provided a lot of sound scientific evidence for the various components of the equation. Good work. I think you could possibly make a part 2 of this video and talk about friends (and even good friends) with benefits. One question I have is, what prevents one person in a situation like that from pursuing something more? Obviously somethings lacking somewhere, or is it something else? And a bonus video would be about “the one” and maybe “the one that got away” that kinda ruins all future relationships.
AS an INFJ man I do experience the difficulty of having friendships with women because of my own definition of friendship. To me friendship is very deep and the line between girlfriend and friend becomes very thin I find. Therefore I do not think it is appropriate when the women has a boyfriend. Of course it's different if it's only to share sports, hobbies or having smalltalk here and there.
Yes men & women can be bestfriends in platonic way.
I'm an INFJ woman, and like you I find that when my female friends get married/have kids, I'm sometimes "dropped", and it has nothing to do with an opposite sex friendship. This is just what happens when people enter into a new/different stage in their lives. Also as an "empath", the older I get the more I seem to naturally lose friendships. I guess it's a mismatch in energies.
I have a son. He’s 27. When he was young, he was taught to be open, to talk about his emotions, his dad and I both encouraged to be open. Never did we say don’t cry. This is a macho characteristic especially coming from a Spanish background. Evolved humans are open to allowing everyone to just be, including our own children. Be open with your son, allow him to respond how it may be natural to him. I don’t think you’ll have issues here with communication with him. He’s young still, it’ll be an amazing experience for you both.
I like how you're wearing a pink hoodie with a blue shirt underneath for this video.
Great insightful video. Maybe ask Frank James, I'd love to see you guys have a conversation as both INFJ men, who have platforms. Also i think it would make an interesting video if you can explain the difference between knowing whether or not your attraction for someone is romantic or is it that you are attracted to the qualities to which they have/present to you?
I would too! I think Frank James has said he has a lot of feminine energy. I think he and Clay are in a similar boat in this area.
Hi Clay, you have explained this very well. I come from a culture where back home men have deep, emotional and strong friendships. Men even hold hands and say they love each other. You might be surprised but I am talking about Muslim men. And the crazy thing is, when men behave this way, they are labelled gay, which they are not. Same gender friendships are normal, healthy and even legendary, like the friendship between Rumi and Shams of Tabriz. I think you are completely right that these days men find in women the emotional intelligence and support that they may not find in their own male friends, but this does not have to be the case because the right to be emotionally aware and expressive is a right for both genders.
I noticed that muslim men have very strong and close friendships, that is why this talk about how men don't express themselves look alien to me
Maybe it is mainly a problem in the western world.
Are you muslim btw?
I've watched maybe a hundred relationship videos lately trying to understand different perspectives. This one is by far the most thoughtful and nuanced one on platonic relationships I've seen. A lot of videos on platonic relationships are either very critical of the concept (too risky?) or are just loaded with (not very good) data that lose the important nuances. Research questions often confuse (conflate) all the variations in platonic relationships. Single/taken/divorced/widowed, gay/straight, disciplined/reckless, younger/older, male/female, more/less emotional, healthy/unhealthy other relationships, etc., and especially "how do you even define friendship(!!)" all need to be considered and ultimately I agree (FWIW) with Clay's conclusions at 1:02 and 27:16.
There is just not a universal one-size-fits-all answer to this question. Excellent and thoughtful video.
Man I love your channel. As an INTP I've thought about a lot of the topics that you talk about and my thought process and conclusions are very similar to yours. Keep up the good work.
Hey Clay. I am an ENFJ man instead of an INFJ man, but I resonate completely with what you were saying around 5:35-7:25. I have spoke about this a lot too actually...growing up in the Bronx especially, I noticed as a child that when I wanted to connect more deeply with people, it was hard since the guys were always afraid that it was a sign of homosexuality (I am also straight ftr) and also they feared me being more of the Alpha Male by being so aware of their inner emotions and in tune with them in a way that they may have felt powerless. I still have trouble with this in my day to day life, finding male friends in this way, and therefore I have always gotten along better with women for the same reasons you stated. But I agree, it sucks about the whole when they get married thing...
I love how you stated that these things should not be called feminine or masculine traits, but just human traits. And your way of making the whole question come back around to the fact that men would interpret a genuine friendship with a woman as a romantic one due to the depth of intimacy in it, that makes sense. I think that is truly the current problem with many guys. You gave amazing insight and advice in this video. I wish I had a friend like you growing up (or even more like you now haha).
Thanks again for another dope video.
As an INTJ woman, the difficulty of “fitting in” is real. Although the difference is I have more female friendships than male but I enjoy friendships with both. I find value in the insights of all sexes.
I'm a straight INFJ-T Man, I feel that in order to become a better person you should embrace your feminine and masculine side evenly.
I find my closer friends are women but the majority of my friends who I spend more time with are men. I go to my girlfriends when I’m looking to socialize in a more conversational way, but I’m a very very playful person so when I’m feeling extremely playful I mostly go to my male friends be because we are more likely to do actual activities instead of just talking. I am not so interested in talking about my issues but I like to give others advice on their issues so I only really go to women when I’m in the mood to be helpful to someone else and be someone else’s rock. I am actually more likely to confide in my male friends than my female ones because I feel like the topic will be dropped sooner and I prefer that, and then we can move on to a more fun activity afterwards that will help me get my energy out. For context, I’m a 20 year old female. I was INFJ when I was 18, then INTJ shortly after I turned 19 which lasted about a year and a half, and then recently I tested again and I am back to being an INFJ (I assume this is because my personality is still so fluid because I’m young).
Closes friends were always females because reasons you said. They were more open up emotionally. I think for INFJs, Yes you can have girl friend, but what I discovered, is that if a longer time of closeness pass, if she wanted, I would try relationship, because for me its more important that closeness in relationship than anything else. If that never happens, we still remain friends, but life is life and at some point of a time, she will be moving on, find someone, and I, as closest friend, will became at one point second, which can cause me to distance from that friendship... Its like "She dont need me anymore, I dont get enough understanding, its time to move on"...
As an INFJ straight man, most of my friends are much older women, like my grandma's age. And I prefer to sit in the ladies' circle at family functions.
My observations over the year's having married two very different men & buried both of them. Knowing self identity at an early age makes a difference.
My first husband was intuitive to the point of being spooky in his ability to read others, very high IQ, incredable hand eye coordination, sensitive, artistic & creative. He also loved to do typical guy's things like hunt and fish and be in the outdoors. We grew up in the same small community & knew each other since Junior high. He was my best friend ever.
We grew up and lived in a rural northern small population conservative state. He went on to a high stress job as a stock broker & put me through college & a professional degree.
The situation you're describing depends on a man being comfortable within his own skin AND in belief of his own definition of what defines masculinity or innate Maleness. He taught me that knowing yourself truthfully sometimes with harsh internal assessment, a person of any gender has the ability to observe & feel others needs and fears. This in turn develops an ability to agree to disagree on differences making compromise much easier to accomplish.
I have never had any luck being friends with men. I would love to be, but it seems like something I do always grays that relationship. I think it's very possible though. I am pretty naive and often miss the signs someone may have more interest then just being my friend. Sometimes I feel like being kind and polite gives off some kind of signal that I am not trying to emit. But I am very open and don't want to lead anyone on. I have yet to have a male friendship (other than family or friends partners) without them wanting more and the ultimately they leave the friendship. It's sad. Thank you for this video!! I love learning everything about why people are the way they are. It is completely fascinating to me.
Same here. I got accused so much of hitting on men or flirting with them, when in my mind I'm just being nice or polite, it's like even if I smile too much they take it as a signal. I hope I'll figure out how to not give off that vibe in the future
Interesting topic. From my experience a male and female can care about each other without sexual expectations but friendship has to be declared in order to prevent any confusion.
Also true, about manliness expectations being over the top as a black person in Africa. People don't wanna acknowledge what they are not used to, however when I am effective as a human being while resisting any attempts to change my values... that lead to acceptance, but also loneliness because like attracts like.
This is why I am always trying to get men to know that it is important to be open and chat with their friends.
i love this topic! such an eye opener! i feel bad for my guy friends sometimes coz i can feel that they cant be as vulnerable as women. not only my guy friends but also the guys in my family. they are humans too and need emotional support as women do.
You seem cool (I never use that word, but it seemed appropriate here.) On another note, I believe if more platonic relationships involved cuddling, way less people would suffer from loneliness. And I agree with your dad. The true masculine and true feminine are both unique expressions of God's nature, and we need to be in touch with both.
Maybe I’m crazy or ignorant but I really believe that people’s minds have been “set” (like plaster or even concrete) in such a way that they are unable to really be “just friends”. “Just friends” is a weird way to put what a true friendship really is, but of course “just friends” really means a friendship that doesn’t go further into romance. What has so set people’s minds? In my opinion it is the hyper focus on sex so that even the idea “just friends” is still based on sex as the deciding point of how close a friendship really is. Society looks at two people spending time together and instantly takes it all the way to a romantic or sexual relationship. This has happened with me when I was younger on a few occasions and people are always like “so… are you and her..?” And I would say “if we were you wouldn’t even need to ask the question because it would be clear as day.”
I think part of the answer to “can men and women be just friends” is answered by understanding why we ask this question to begin with and what has so influenced us to wonder it at all.
I'm in a platonic friendship since 5 years now. I have usually been introvert and set high boundries with friends. But now I'm suprised to see what person I've become thanks to this friendship I became more emotional confident and open-minded though I was more into my masculine energy before. As I have never been in a real romantic relationship,he showed me the type of men I could share my life with in the future. Yet, honest to God I usually embark in a sort of emotional elevator that makes me wonder why and how I got into such a deep emotional adventure. It's not really easy to live despite it's fairy beauty. I just feel it's not permanent especially that I live in a society where husbands cannot tolerate their wives to have male friends.
I'm not an infj I am an enfp but when it comes to hugging another dude I tend to just not need that or want that to the degree of an emotional hug but if it were to be in the case of supporting someone going through a hard time I have no issues with one or shame associated with it. I think for me atleast it comes from a place of support not a place of need or want.
I've just discovered this video. You make some good points. My opinion is that men and women, in general, cannot be "just friends". I'm not here to force my logic and reason unto anyone who disagrees, but I speak from personal experience when I say the whole men and women being strictly platonic friends thing is extremely rare and difficult to put it lightly.
There are tons of research and studies that back up these claims. So in simplest terms can a man view a woman as strictly platonic? The answer is yes, with the caveat that he does not find her attractive. Harsh truth, I know, but it is reality. The other type of men who have female friends are what we call orbiters, these guys have ulterior motives and only pretend to be platonic friends with females in order to learn their taste and interest so that they can eventually try to manipulate these women when they're down into sleeping with them. All women have both of these types of male friends, and more than half the women are completely naive and oblivious to these facts until it is shown to them.
When it comes to women, it's important to understand the fact that men and women see things differently and this goes back to the differences in our biology. The way we view certain things are innate. There are three types of women who have male friends. There are women who are carousel riders who keep men around as "friends", when in reality these are just men that they are sleeping with or are planning to sleep with. The other type of woman keeps men in the " friendzone " because she is not physically attracted to him at all. However, she continuously keeps him around for attention, validation, and any resources he may provide to her. These women are generally dishonest and not forthcoming of their true feelings or intentions, and use these types of weak or oblivious lonely men as an emotional tampon.
Finally, we all have met or have been with women who have that male "best friend " that she's known for years and years, who she knows is completely " platonic ". Except for the fact that if you are a man you can spot it from a mile away that her "bestie" is secretly madly in love with her. These types of men are not necessarily bad guys, they are just very attracted to and are in some cases in love with these types of females for years and years while pretending to be platonic, while simultaneously hoping that this girl will come around and see them as a perfect match. These women are usually very naive and are shocked when the truth is revealed, because they've never viewed these male friends romantically at any point.
This is the reason why myself and millions of other men believe that men and women cannot be strictly platonic friends in the same way that two straight males can be friends due to thinking similarly, having similar life experiences, and having many other things in common. With my close male friends, I view them as family. My best friend who recently died was like a brother to me. He knew everything about my life that no one else knew, and the same is true for me in regards to him. We also had a straightforward pure connection where we can discuss whatever bothers us or our feelings etc.
Finally, and I know I'm writing a book report, let's not forget that the friend zone does not work in reverse either. Much like males, females also befriend men that they are physically attracted to. Most of the time, men may be oblivious to the fact that the girl they thought was a platonic friend has true romantic feelings for them, that he can never reciprocate because he's not attracted to her. I've been there myself.
Life is not black and white, there are all these complexities and nuances that don't apply to everyone the same. However, when speaking about real life situations I don't usually deal with the exceptions to the rule. I speak in statistics and generalities because those are indicative of the vast majority.
I, an INFJ man, definitely resonate with women more than men. I am far more in touch with my feminine side than men in general.
I've noticed also its about options. If a guy has options of "romantic" partners he is more likely to be able to be just friends with a woman because he isn't desperate for that relationship. As an infp male it's good to have those deep friendships with women to be able to externalize these deep felt emotions.✌
If a guy doesn't have many options, how else is he meant to get partners? He becomes friends hoping that something will develop. What most don't understand is that women, on the whole, don't have that level of maturity. Their decisions are based almost solely on sexual attraction.
As an INFJ, I can identify many things you say. I also get along with women better. Yeah, but there are social obstacles that prevent guys and gals to be friends, which is unfortunate.
No I am not a stereotypical man at all. I don’t know how women would see me. I am heterosexual too. Yes, I do wonder sometimes if people think I am gay but I am not. That’s just a stereotype of being gay.
Another thing I noticed was that sometimes women would misunderstand my caring as a signal to flirt with them.
If people have to question whether or not you're gay, that's probably a good indicator that you're going to have relationship problems. Women and men alike are going to view you as feminine, weak, friendship material, instead of masculine, strong, leadership material. If that's what you're going for then sure, men and women who share feminine attributes and are not physically attracted to one another can make great friends, but the more feminine the woman, and more masculine the man, the more difficult it'll be to maintain a purely platonic relationship.
The answer is nuhuh.
Good job Clay.
I mirror your sentiments and actions with validation of children's emotions.
I imagine that men and women can be just friends only in the absence of strong sexual attraction, or if both people have positively assimilated their sexuality into their personalities. I've noticed that people who seem to be in harmony with their sexuality are much more at ease with people of the opposite sex, even when attraction is present. It's possible that these people would have an easier time developing emotional vulnerability with someone without experiencing an overwhelming surge of sexual interest.
My own relationship with sexuality is confused and troublesome. Sometimes it seems like my sexuality is strongly wired to the part of my brain that processes affection and emotional connection. Other times it seems to be correlated with hate and contempt. In either case it's an intense part of my being that's not found healthy expression.
Sexuality is an incredibly strong primal force that impacts so many facets of life. I think it's impossible to answer such a question without thoroughly examining the effects of sexuality in male-female interactions.
@Piece of Sheet your comment sounds like you've had some experience of the turbulent side of being a creative HSP introverted type with a high feeler traits - as far as I've observed it, more gender fluid adolescents tend to get more schtick about being androgynous than most of their peers - so it's a common thing to be unsure about who or how we're attracted to others, from my own experience as (now a grandmother) INFJ in a biological female body. It's all about frisson - that delightful zing you get when you're with another human being without being drunk or high, first - and Clay was discussing 'just friends'... Namaste
As a strong demisexual, it's quite interesting to look at it this way. I haven't actually taken the time to take a step back to get in the shoes of people who struggles with their sexuality and lust. I use the word struggle, I guess, to connect with my own experiences. As you can imagine, I've been on the short end where I hang out with guys and simply enjoy their presence and I hoped they would too, only for them to mention sleeping with me. It almost never fails lol. Even though it's happened multiple times, I never understood why they felt that way other than the fact that men and women are wired completely different.
I love this talk; hats off to you for the courage to step up to this topic.
I am an INTJ, but my F side is so close to INXJ that I easily identify with F and I thinkers. Your perspective on this issue is almost word for word my own. I felt that before taking the typing profiler, I was definitely an F. On the other hand, I unconditionally insistent on logic and rationality.
I blush easily, and at times it seems irrational to both women and men friends, just as my being the first to tear up does. When younger, I would hide the tears, but on maturing, if anything, it has become unapologetically more profuse. I now know that those who do not miss out on one of the better parts of life. I have been mistaken as gay, but it is almost always by the macho type. When they do, to the point of challenging me, they change their attitudes quickly. I might add here the different types of gay men present no problems for me in recognizing and differentiating them. These issues arise out of all the various gender types.
People's expectations are sometimes problematic in childhood. I remember what an intended comment by my aunt had on me. She commented, "Dickie you should have been a girl." Not only did I insist she never call me Dickie again, but I was also deeply hurt by thinking she considers me a sissy. It was I was mistaken about her intention but did not realize it until in my later years. She was just admiring my blue eyes, long eyelashes, and slender form.
On the friendship issue, I think this is dependent on the honesty of all that are involved. For honest, well-intended individuals, it will never surface as an unsolvable issue. For those not so fortunate, it is a home breaker. If one senses it is a factor, then that is the time to have a serious conversation.
Kudos Clay, this is going to help many who have struggled with the problem.
I'm looking at this video and sorry to say men and women, not friends. It's really simple. For some it's painfully simple. Everybody knows it, but most can't face it.
Personally I don't think everyone knows this. I think women can be friends with men but men can't be friends with women.
Every time I tried to be friends with women, they've eventually tried to sleep with me the moment they got mad at their significant-other/husband.
I can't even begin to tell you how much I was able to relate to what you talk about here, especially as a male INFP. Thankfully, I have a couple of male friends I am very close to and between us there is much less internalized homophobia than between most men, I would say. I also have noticed that I am doing sooooo much better in general with girl friends than with guy friends when it comes to opening up. It's really a shame that I was so much more shy with girls when I was younger, because I honestly could have had a better support system, I think.
I have also been asked if I'm gay, but that was more so in high school, actually. Also, I do definitely have a problem with the line between friendship and a romantic relationship when it comes to female friends. I often see the potential in those relationships to be a romantic relationship. What I need to remind myself of sometimes, is that a good friendship is worth equally as much, even if I desire a romantic relationship with someone in general.
I am part of the group who enjoyed having friendships of the opposite sex, some of them moved into a romantic relationship. Others did not and remained friendships, I've had to sacrifice a number of those for my wife who saw things as I should have more male than female friends, which means I've lost some of those friendships who were very near and dear to me. But maybe it's a good thing, as much as I mourn the loss of those friendships alot of those people have really progressed in their relationships and I honestly don't think they even wonder about me anymore, i guess in a way I've kinda died to them.
The same hardships go for me bro. as an INFJ man I think life for us is a bit hard . but I really enjoy being INFJ. it's like I have a superpower others don't have. of course it cost. look at Jordan person bro. being highly emotional isn't a problem at all. he cries even on tv. I use to embrace it too . of course I am straight so the fact I get ashamed of being emotional leads me to a too lonely life. my sister is also INFJ but she doesn't have this problem. after seeing dr. Peterson, I felt good and want to use my blessed forgetting cruse side. speak of the topic. I am good to connect with both women and men with my INFJ blessing. but being friends with women is a questionable thing to me. Because a few times when I created an emotional bond with a female friend I end up having feelings for her. I have to close that friendship entirely and got hurt too, on the other hand, a lot of my female friends ended up having feelings for me. and I have to draw a line for them too. so i am thankful to you for vedio bro I get i idea from this. I really appreciate you.
INFJ Man- I think like a woman emotionally! Wow. Yes I can completely resonate with you.
As an INFJ woman i always resonated more with males than females. And for my ex INFJ he resonated more with females than males i guess for the same reasons you stated about your personal experience. In addition to that, i think the fact that we come from a specific sex gender allows us to figure that gender out at a young age and when we end up not being able to fit into that gender we crave to make relationships with the opposite gender expecting that we can relate more to it. But for me, as I went through all that and could finally figure the male's gender out i found out that I'm not fit in both. I'm just a human being with a balanced features that are supposed to be human features but so called "feminine and masculine".
I can relate so much to what you said. I’m an infj female too.
I as an INFJ woman resonated more with boys in school, somehow this changed recently as I have more female friends now. But I would say there is definitley a tendency towards male friendships
(Hetro infj black male here) I think your surroundings growing up impact how you view of “friendships” . I grew up surrounded by mostly women (single mother, lots of female cousins) so I was kind of always open to talk about my emotions. Naturally I found myself having more female friends than what would’ve considered normal from a young age but then I found myself in this weird middle ground between society’s expectations and how I just am naturally. Now my close friendships are kinda split down the middle but most of them are people who think similar to myself and are open to talking about their feelings regardless of gender. As far as relationships go it’s never really been an issue except in my last one but that was more of a by product of other issues. What you said about the 5 pillars is interesting but it’s never been my experience or my close friends experience... I think we just tend to gravitate to people who are like minded... how you were raised and you environment are the biggest factors I think. I just kind of asked why a lot and rejected a lot of society’s stereotypes because it just didn’t make sense.
I think the question itself is flawed. If you notice that no matter what gender you are interacting with, man to man woman to woman and woman to man, you run into the same kind of question. Can people, just be friends? I believe this is the exact same question, and when you ask it this way, it is easy to see how silly the question is. A person is a far more complicated creature than it's Gender or Sex. Agree? So to use a high order abstraction like a man or a woman would be making this unfathomable complicated human, & making it into a stick figure, with appropriate genitals. If we are going to ask a question that leads to any clarity. We can't ask the question using such low-resolution concepts. Reducing the human to their gender, then trying to derive any form of truths from it is silly. So instead you have to look at an individual and their state of consciousness, psychological development, behaviour patterns and etc.... on and on. Then determine if that particular person, can interact with the gender they are attracted to, and just be friends. So you ground the question in something more real, like the nuanced, complex person, then ask if they can do this or that with the high order abstraction of gender. Or even keep it all real, and take pairs of people both by their individual existence.
But even if you do ask the question in high order abstractions, it would make more sense to think of it as: Can people just be friends with those they find attractive.
I would agree in a perfect world. However the research is clear that men are raised in a certain way and women are raised in another. It’s hard or almost impossible for most people to abandon this cultural programming.
Honestly (and I know I'm going to be hated for saying this),
I find this idea of gender, and the whole "stripping men and women of their obvious physical and psychological differences" just silly.
A man and a woman are built differently, and that can't be changed.
It doesn't mean that one of them should be superior, or that they should be treated differently in every aspect.
But equality and fairness doesn't go well with self-denial either.
I hope people would realise that, and be open minded and fair to themselves and others.
Then they would work with what humankind have, instead of wishing and dreaming.
I'm a female, and I had a friendship with another female which failed miserably. We used to be bestfriends, but she had been having romantic feelings toward me. I never felt the same way towards her. So, I agree with you about asking the question can two people just be friends.
@@ClayArnall Culture is not a stagnant phenomenon. It evolves and adapts just like any other living entity on this planet. If culture did not shift women would not be driving and going to school. We would still be racially segregated and the church would be the ruling government. There would be no scientific development and no new music, art, fashion and foods. Change is slow but it happens. There are still many scars left over from the past that many of us are still struggling with ( racism, sexism, homophobia etc.) It is not inherent that men and women can't be friends while both have distorted interpersonal relationships with each other and themselves although this does make it complicated and difficult as you explained. But the solution is to raise the new generation differently as you are with your son. We don't have to pass down the flaws of this gender system to the new generation. Many younger people are critical and aware of the faults in civilization some people may never change their way but let us hope and support that those who do will prevail.
I really appreciate the nuance in this. Thank you Clay.
Infj guy here who likes to have many "less intimate" friendships AND a few close intimate friendships, who often (but not always) tend to be women. I feel really fulfilled with all my friendships of different types, and don't really feel the need to have any one "real" relationship
When people say you are gay, they mean that you are more feminine. Which you said yourself, you relate more with women.
Me too. Some guys have tried to be mean and say I'm gay but I literally don't care - I get on better with women. I've slept with about 40 women in my life, more than most of them I bet but I also have platonic female friendships. Why deny the opportunity to have great friendships.
1. When people ask this question, I always wonder how non-straight couples deal with this without much issue. No one goes around questioning if a gay man can be friends with another man or a pansexual person can have any friends.
2. I think it can be done with the caveat of having clear and consistent boundaries and communication. My boundaries with my partner include being able to have friendships with whomever I choose, but also making him aware of those friendships and being aware and sensitive to his definition of "crossed boundaries" with friendships. And vice-versa. With friends, it is being aware that forming some sort of romantic feelings can happen, and if it does, on either end, and it is too difficult to manage, than it is okay to take a break from or end the friendship without hard feelings, but probably with some sadness. Also, understanding and respecting which actions are considered romantic and which aren't by both you and your friend is necessary.
Those are the same general rules that I operate by when I make friends with a woman who turns out to be attracted to women (which I am not).
That said, I try to make it is clear as humanly possible to a man from whom I only want friendship that friendship is all I want from first spending time together but don't always feel I have to be as explicit with women even if I know they are attracted to other women.
The Major giftedness of the INFJ is compassion and understanding of human nature...INFJ are very driven to understand human nature...
Relatives, business aquaintances/working relationships, and relatives… that’s it
Love this...very interesting perspective on how the lines can get blurry. I definitely find forming friendships with guys in general easier.
From an INTJ woman, here is my perspective: I've been using this metaphor lately.. I am my sun. The center of my own "universe" as such there are many planets who I provide my energy to. Some are closer to me some are far away. But not a single planet is the center of my universe.
If I were to make my job as the center of my universe, and suddenly lost it, then my whole identity would be lost as well. Even though romantic relationships are important, I don't make it my center of my universe. I also cultivate other hobbies and deep meaningful connections and friendships with others regardless of the gender or age. In this case, If I were to lose a romantic relationship, then my identity wouldn't be lost and would still have plenty of support to go through the pain without being completely isolated. Life is so much more.. why not appreciate the beauty and complexity of it all?
I understand the danger of being close to an opposite sex person while being in a relationship. However, honest intent and communication must be present. Direct communication is something I highly value and respect.
If I had problems or issues in a romantic relationship, then I must look inward instead of looking outward and seek for validation with other people. Since I am my "sun", self-love is vital in order to keep things going.
Hope you liked this little trip to my inner world🚀 wish you much success in your journey. Please keep this content going! I just subscribed.
Very cool, I visualised this entire scene and got carried away visiting the other planets like the space cadet I truly am.
@@louisejoel happy to hear that, cadet 😊🚀
Hey Clayton, I'm about half way through your video and as a mature student within the social work and community development departments, just wanted to let you know that according to the Mayo clinic, women are about twice as likely as men to experience depression actually.
Yes there are a lot of gender expectations and stereotypes that still exist. Sometimes we even hold them within ourselves without consciously realizing until they are challenged. For example, I am learning that I was more fixated on marriage and kids when I was younger than my other female friends. I assumed most women were that way but as I got older, I learned that is not always the case.
As far as the vulnerability, really depends on the women. I know a lot of women personally that don't like being vulnerable because it makes them feel out of control. They love helping others but not necessarily admitting they need help themselves. I'll continue watching.
I'm an INFJ (22M), and almost all but one of my close friendships have been with women. Someone else's comment perfectly articulated my struggle with one particular female friend, who I mistakenly thought I liked in a romantic way. I wasn't used to that level of emotional closeness and intimacy in my male friendships, so I leaned into that friendship way too strongly and misinterpreted what was just a friendship with her. We are still amazingly close friends now, and she knows I had feelings (or at least I thought I did) for her back then, but I've been able to make some other close friends as well to avoid "putting all my eggs in one basket" which include one other female friend and a male friend.
Although keep in mind when I talk about "putting all my eggs in one basket", I'm referring to the traditionally feminine role of giving emotional support rather than requiring it solely from her. I have and always will naturally be a giver not a taker when it comes to this sort of thing in close relationships with other people. Anyway, with this friend (she is an INFP for context), she didn't really have any other close friends with men or women, and so I almost felt like her sole source of emotional support which essentially meant our roles as a man and woman were reversed. She struggles to open up and be vulnerable and so I invested a large amount of my time and energy into coaxing that out of her.
I would say the reality of male friendships for INFJ men is pretty bleak most of the time, but you can come across a rare man who provides what you've always had to seek out women for, and that bond will be one of the strongest you'll ever have for your entire life. You don't have to worry about the nature of that friendship changing with new relationships or circumstances such as marriage, and while some may interpret it as a gay relationship, what matters isn't necessarily what others perceive but rather what you know it to be yourselves.
My current close male friend (ESTJ), is emotionally vulnerable with me sometimes but we have a very push-and-pull type friendship that doesn't feel like what I just described. He's the closest man in my life right now and I love him as a friend, but he definitely struggles to understand me a lot of the time which means it's not quite as fulfilling as I want it to be, but it's better than nothing. I'm only 22 so I have time, but I'm hoping I meet a man soon who reflects these qualities I need in a close friendship.
Lastly, I also just wanted to point out, that because almost all my close friends are women currently, it actually acts as a deterrant for any women acutally romantically interested in me, as they think I'm already interested in one of these friends. So the sooner I can find this ideal male friend the better, as my chances at finding a partner will almost certaintly increase exponentially the moment I do.
Anyway thanks for the amazing video. I almost related exactly to your experience of making friends as an INFJ man.
Depends on their personalities, culture, physical attraction, mental connection, emotional connection, religion, goals, values, vision.... etc.
I like your channel 👍 keep up the good discussions. Food for my INFJ mind.
Merry Christmas!🎄🎄🎄
By the way: emotional men are attractive, society can suck it.
Agree 😊
What do you mean by emotional men?
Because men who get angry quickly are emotional, right? But I don't think that is something you like, right?
There are also alot of women who think men around them are (emotionally draining), so it doesn't seem emotional men who can't deal with their emotions and always need others are that attractive.
The answer is yes, I dated a guy as a teenager and we became friends after we broke up, it has now been over 25 years of a platonic frienship. We have given each other relationship advice over the years to get the opinion of the opposite sex. Having said that it has caused problems with partners over the years they can't believe it's only platonic. I think my answer to why it works is that we had the romance early on and found it didn't work so it put that to rest. I am an INFJ female, I don't know what my friend is but he is definitely an introvert, he is also not that type of guy to try his luck and I think that has probably helped too. So in our case yes men and women can have platonic friendships for many years.
Discovering my weaknesses and being obsessed about understanding those things! 🙋🏽♂️
11:08 r/meirl OR r/2meirl4meirl
11:21 We're not friends with other men so we can cry on each other shoulder... we're friends with men because we genuinely trust each other, because we share the same values, because we're interested in similar stuff and because we know no one cares about emotional outbursts (unless it's rage)
19:48 I was a first child a was treated like a frickin king... yet since I remember I absolutely hated stuff like cuddling, kissing, etc. OR when someone acted "too emotionally" around me, doesn't matter if it was another kid, parents or other people... it was extremely uncomfortable and it was pissing me off...
22:41 Exactly... it's never "just friendship"... if the female friend would offer sex or relationship, 99,999 % of male friends would agreed to it... and that's not "just a friend"... and you, as a man, won't willingly befriend only completely unattractive women just to make sure nothing will ever happen between you even if offered
Nice, good question that needs to be discussed. Pink (still) my favourite colour. Pink suit you beautifully.
Living in The Middle East.
Friendships between men and women are taboo
In the lower Economic Group,women ,married or not,risk being murdered if found alone with a man.
Personally I prefer men’s company and have shared many sensitive emotions with them but this was easier when living in the U.K.
From personal experience have found Gay men more in tune with women,extremely sensitive and lots of fun
My Brother was an homosexual man and women adored him
He was invited to escort many to parties etc and was so fun and open
It was difficult growing up as my Father,a Military man,gave him Hell and belittled him badly whereas my Mother adored him
Sorry for rambling on
I’m new to learning I’m an INFJ and I can relate to you regarding being more compatible woman due to my emotional depth. Being in my 50’s, it’s hard meeting guys. I have had woman friends over the years but only keep in contact with the happily married ones. Unfortunately, any time a woman has come into my life and we are upfront about not being able to date in agree we’re in same place of emotional healing so not ready for relationship. Nice learned, others don’t think and have depth of INFJ. I’ve learned many inconvenient truths on personal traits and am grateful to have learned and found some good people who are like myself. Thanks for sharing
Yes I totally relate to you on this. I never really had real male friends. And the fact I went to an all boys high school it made me quite lonely as a person
Thou an ENFP, I watch your videos for your introverted wisdom…”It all depends is”
is a great way to start a new
male/female relationship slowly to avoid getting too sexual to soon. Thanks again for your insight Clay…..C’ndy