Should You Settle the Swamp/Wetlands? | Kenshi Location Guide

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 135

  • @cooperreynolds8190
    @cooperreynolds8190 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +151

    "The swamp can fit 3 Europes!"
    3 images of Africa
    That gave me a good laugh

    • @Larzang
      @Larzang 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      Average American level of geographical knowledge in a nutshell 😹

    • @grimsgraveyard3598
      @grimsgraveyard3598 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

      ​@@Larzanghe's Clearly trolling bro most of us know where Europe and Africa are, and the fact they aren't the same continent but they are connected.

    • @Larzang
      @Larzang 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      ​@@grimsgraveyard3598 Yeah, so? I'm still taking my independent jab at the education system and how much it has failed some people I know.

    • @Maethendias
      @Maethendias 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@grimsgraveyard3598 imagine explaining a joke

    • @VietFS
      @VietFS 5 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@grimsgraveyard3598 You know that there is water between Africa and Europe right?

  • @quiquesaurusrex4043
    @quiquesaurusrex4043 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +89

    I came into the swamp, a guy tried to extort me for some cats, i insulted him starting a bar fight that ended in a full on war that extended for several villages.
    Got a nice coat out of it 10/10.

    • @robfus
      @robfus 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      Love the place, would return again

  • @CrabQueen
    @CrabQueen 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +226

    I always feel bad killing swamp turtles. Theyre so sweet. One of the few true neutral animals, and theyve got a cute lil face.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +39

      True, they look so innocent

    • @JaxonZero0
      @JaxonZero0 11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      All I see is walking meat and leather.

    • @kylemarkloff4451
      @kylemarkloff4451 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +21

      This is only game I've ever played where I didn't feel bad killing the friendly animals

    • @jamiehughes5573
      @jamiehughes5573 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +11

      The swamp turtles sure are a unique looking creature.
      I think I could even recreate one in spore

    • @Yue_Jin
      @Yue_Jin 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Had one as a pet once in Genesis.

  • @yourranger7025
    @yourranger7025 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +89

    Gotta love the random blood spider swarms and the fact that they can attack when underwater and your pathfinding sends you for a little swim

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

      Robotics limbs don't feel so good when that happens...

  • @warzagg5022
    @warzagg5022 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +40

    To live in the swamp, or not? My heart says yes; I love making cats on hash, and the music there is great. The sheer hatred in my heart for blood spiders and my screaming computer say no.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      I hate blood spiders too. Them chasing your characters underwater is nightmare fuel.

  • @jogzyg2036
    @jogzyg2036 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +84

    "There are no beak things."
    Not spawns, but they can DEFINETELY wander in from Shem if you are near the border.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +47

      Just like Ohio, beak things could attack at any time.

    • @grimsgraveyard3598
      @grimsgraveyard3598 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@paulrogersgamingwe killed all the beak things we sent our starving bandits (drug addicts) they devoured them in weeks those poor beak things didn't stand a chance.

  • @runswithbears3517
    @runswithbears3517 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +46

    I used to dislike relying on biofuel as well, but ever since I made a base in Howler's Maze, I actually prefer it over wind energy (assuming the wind isn't constant and high). Biofuel is very easy to make, especially when you use hemp. 3 large hemp plots produce more fuel and fabric than I know what to do with.

  • @LensenMessias
    @LensenMessias 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +12

    thank you for doing your part at keeping this community alive

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

      We must keep Kenshi going until the blessed day when Kenshi 2 is released 🙌

  • @bluehatboi4273
    @bluehatboi4273 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +28

    I don't usually comment on TH-cam videos, but its cool seeing your channel grow and the Kenshi content your producing. Keep up the work it's really entertaining and researched stuff!

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      I have been very impressed by how supportive the Kenshi community is. Thank you for tuning in!!

  • @h.f.v.1428
    @h.f.v.1428 4 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    If you strugle with the loading screens of the swamp, search the mod "Clean and speed" or "Clean and speed plus".

  • @celem1000
    @celem1000 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    One of my favourite spots is on the Western edge of the Swamp, southwest of the lost library, bordering the Spider Plains. You get wind on the slopes down into the Swamp and all three grow zones.
    It's a dangerous spot, especially with various expanded faction mods, spiders and bezerkers come in out of the plains regularly and UWE places the Blue Cleaver HQ right next door. If you are making hash it's also close to Squin which pays well

  • @Propietario283
    @Propietario283 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +9

    Burning Forest can be a good place to settle, as long as you have acid resistance. Pretty much the same as a swamp but with added benefit of wittlling health of most attackers.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      I'm planning on checking it out!

  • @naughtyhieroglyph669
    @naughtyhieroglyph669 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Top left is legit, it's the center of the map and that drug run to flatts lagoon makes you super rich.

  • @DawryMike
    @DawryMike 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    As soon as I get an actual computer instead of a laptop im definitely spending most of my time in the Swamp.

  • @jackransom.
    @jackransom. 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Never knew there wasn't any wind power in the swamps. I didn't get that far. Like an idiot, I figured my second try at a base would be GREAT in the swamps. started to set up shop and was almost immediately devoured by blood spiders. Was a hard knock introduction to Kenshi base building. Enjoyed the vid.

  • @Kejody53
    @Kejody53 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    recently starting playing the game, gotta say thanks for all the guides you put out, they help a noob like me out a lot haha

  • @MenwithHill
    @MenwithHill 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +7

    My first base was shem side right on the border of Shem, traded a lot with Shark and man the loading screens and blood spiders are no joke. Made me kinda regret it and prefer dealing with the beak things on the way to Flats Lagoon

  • @kruppiweedstories2122
    @kruppiweedstories2122 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +13

    „Three Europes“
    *proceeds to show Africa*

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

      I'm using all 110% of my American education.

    • @grimsgraveyard3598
      @grimsgraveyard3598 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      ​@@paulrogersgamingit used to teach that stuff when I was in school lol.

  • @damace3838
    @damace3838 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    The swamp is a great place to train, the spiders are the only thing that will eat you, the gangs wont enslave you (the slaver raid can be avoided if you settle the northern part of the swamp), and if you put on some stat lowering gear, plant some crops and you can train to 60/60 on raptors without ever leaving your base. Bonus for putting nests at 4!
    Edit: the music, forgot the music

  • @austinkious3940
    @austinkious3940 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Not too long ago, I had a base on the border between the swamp and south wetlands. It was a little bit west of the Stone Rats and close by Red Sabres' hidout to its east. I had a good time there. But curiously enough, I actually could get wind power there. It kind of sucked and sometimes would go away. But I mostly used wind there. I just kept a backup generator for those times that the wind stopped. I had no idea you weren't supposed to get wind there.

  • @mattbowdenuh
    @mattbowdenuh 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Small swamp base is great for getting a lil hash going before hydroponics are researched. Just put the gate where it faces a pond/lake and pack pulls/dogs are great for spiders cause they cant block. Also, taking out the swamp ninjas base is easier than fighting their patrols all the time, and you always want to do the swamp ninjas **before** the red sabres. The stone rats/greyflayer "storyline" is a nice touch to give you an objective while living there.
    Burning Forest isnt actually all that bad either as it also has swamp but with arid, too. It's closer to Flats Lagoon, which is convenient if you want to be a hash dealer and to sell rum to the swamp while living off ricebowls. Just make sure all your workers are wearing a dustcoat or is a hiver lol

  • @lsswappedcessna
    @lsswappedcessna 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Hopefully with Kenshi 2 being on Unreal, the Swamp will be far more playable.

  • @darktooth347
    @darktooth347 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Always settled in Swamp even on my old 2005 HP pc, I endured the lag and I can outright say the swamp was always and will always be the best place to settle

  • @lolihitler4198
    @lolihitler4198 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    i saw your gut video and wanted to ask for a swamp video because im absolutely in love with my current swamp base. decided to find your most recent settlement video to ask there and found this lol

  • @TheVampireAzriel
    @TheVampireAzriel 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Good review. Looking forward to the next one!

  • @Scirvir24
    @Scirvir24 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Man I love these guides

  • @amogus-eo6nm
    @amogus-eo6nm 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    During my last run i started out in the swamp. Tough at firts and ridiculously easy and lucrative later. Had so much hash i could not sell it to anyone.

  • @TheDreamBullet
    @TheDreamBullet 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Southern wetlands does have little wind, and sometimes there might be a few days without rain, in the swamp it rains 247?
    built my base at the rivers end, right next to the grid that has plenty of copper and iron.

  • @40cal24
    @40cal24 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I love the swamp. Get tech level 3, research hemp biofuel production, get 3 large fields growing, and never look back. Also if you shift right click the generator with somebody, you assign their job to resupply it with fuel, which they do automatically. No pesky micro needed.

  • @rogaldorn5486
    @rogaldorn5486 11 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I just found my favorite base location for the swamp. It hase 1 copper 1 iron deposit and even like 20% stone on its far edges and its also on an island so very defensible aswell. If you look east of the swamp ninja base, there is an island surrounded by a small body of water, its a bit small but managable and all you need for autonomy, also relativly close to clownsteady, a slave market and the nomads aswell as flats lagoon,

  • @beetlebottle
    @beetlebottle 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Ayyyy the Shem/Swamp border is where I put my very first (and only) outpost :)
    I never finished it, I should get back to that save.
    I think my thought process was that I wanted the swamp fertility, as well as just living in the swamp, but it was killing my computer, and the blood spiders where killing me. Shem looked visually pleasing, so I settled on the sand right next to the swamp and a pool of water.
    I liked having access to Shark and the nomads for trading, as well as Flats Lagoon being relatively close by.

  • @tommybrinck
    @tommybrinck 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Watched and liked 🧡

  • @jowern0224
    @jowern0224 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    the swamp arid base spot is really smart, unfortunately i started my playtrough just abit southwest to it. anyways, good video as always :)

  • @mollymillions6586
    @mollymillions6586 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I had a great swamp base where the entrance funneled enemies into an area where they had to swim while under fire from turrets.
    However the geometry was so lumpy that about every other day, a spider or sometimes 1000 raptors would clip through my walls and cause a huge panic.

  • @yurimustdie
    @yurimustdie 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    got this in my recommendations and I like it *sub*

  • @JaxonZero0
    @JaxonZero0 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    The Swamps are great, I had a base there, just a little bit south-east of Shark. The town is a constant battle between the Hounds and Swampers, but hey. I settle there for the green, sticky good stuff, not deranged men and women howling in front of my gates.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Where are the women who howl? Asking for a friend.

    • @JaxonZero0
      @JaxonZero0 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@paulrogersgaming They're part of the Hounds, and they come by every week to get their cut of my profit. Which is fine because I make more cats than I know what to do with. It's also only 2K each week, no more no less. Unlike those tin cans from the UC, who change the tax rate based on their mood. This happens only if you ally with the Hounds though. I mean why not, big mommy Grim wants 2000, I give her 2000.

  • @DeezNuggz
    @DeezNuggz 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    nice vid, loved the humor 😂👍

  • @mycereal
    @mycereal 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Shart has to be the best town in the game.

  • @dogerbro2153
    @dogerbro2153 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    i don't see why biofuel is such a big thing if you settled near the upper parts you could've just ran the waystation n bought fuel with hashish money, but i use a mostly Hivers n skeletons so i don't need to eat as much or at all lol Great video tho always useful content

  • @caledonianamerican41
    @caledonianamerican41 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Pretty good stuff

  • @neostenagas8570
    @neostenagas8570 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    When I first started the game, I let my squad run through the swamp, just clicking a point on the map and having tripple speed.
    My complete squad was dying and I had no idea why, turns out there was a spider following my squad, I tried to fight it...yeah not such a good idea with a bunch of weak memberrs.
    And since then I have avoided the swamp and never even tought about building a base there.

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  9 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The speed that a spider can KO at is wild. Characters usually bleed afterward too so death is likely.
      Always panic inducing when there's a dying character in the water. Ya gotta fish them out of the water and then heal.

  • @eloquenthillbilly
    @eloquenthillbilly 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I love the Swamp! It has the best music and lacks that horrible earslpitting at night song. Getting some decent research done, fighting some dust bandits, and slapping everyone in the Venge suit (dustcoat + armoured hood) is usually enough to keep you from a total party wipe. Leave the gate open and put some turrets on top of buildings, your pack bulls and farmers will become combat monsters this way. Speaking of pack bulls, blood spiders can't block, a single lucky charge from an adult/elder packbull can outright kill a dozen or more spiders.
    The bad part of the swamp is performance and visibility, I still crash to desktop with current gen hardware. I swear fewer issues in Linux + Proton on old hardware, but that's likely anecdotal. Leaving so dead bodies and severed limbs can despawn helps and zooming into a random spot of dirt away from animations seems to prevent broken saves, if you let all the assets load before you zoom out. Crashing to desktop and having to import a borked autosave is pretty morale damaging,
    Edit: I've seen beak bastards wander in from the Bonefields/Shem in vanilla. In Kaizo (and other mods that remove no-go zones), I've seen elders with an age multiplier of 2.xx as far north as Mud Town. Living in The Swamp will have your squad lol at normal 1.10 aged elder beak bastards.

  • @33mavboy
    @33mavboy 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Blood spiders have a long stick with a blade on the end of it extending their arms, watch out

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Spiders have had a polearm this whole time 😳

  • @MenwithHill
    @MenwithHill 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I wish more areas had at least patches of swamp fertility... I love growing rice but there's only a few places you can do it in.

  • @lazerguana
    @lazerguana 6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I love the swamp. Fertile land, moral ambiguity of it's inhabitants, the bandits there aren't too strong and the UN, UC and SK big boys don't bother you ... much.
    I come to hunt for turtle meat. I stay to sow wide, totally legal fields of hemp.

  • @lorenzopiccarreta8568
    @lorenzopiccarreta8568 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Ma man❤

  • @aguyfromflorida4842
    @aguyfromflorida4842 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    good video

  • @waldirnacarath
    @waldirnacarath 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Cant wait for the bonefields

  • @Sogeking145
    @Sogeking145 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    swamp base location
    8:44 wetland base location

  • @PP-ok2xt
    @PP-ok2xt 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    you should try the burning forest, it has less foliage, same soil type and generally better locations t build

  • @wisegoongala4305
    @wisegoongala4305 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Once I find a way to stop the Waystation shopkeepers from despawning I can finally upgrade my squad from hobo ninjas to ruthless drug dealers

  • @kimckenzie6161
    @kimckenzie6161 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Smoke some hashish and play as a hashish farmer, feel the full experience

  • @s3ns3nwolf22
    @s3ns3nwolf22 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Would be neat to see the krater 😄

  • @ihavenolife6839
    @ihavenolife6839 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I found a spot bordering the burning forest where I was able to get wind power + all resources at 100% except stone which was 50%.

  • @Mr.Fox1213
    @Mr.Fox1213 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Blood Spiders, meet the desert sabre!

  • @melanclock
    @melanclock 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Swamp music is best in the game too

  • @gilgameschgottvaterdergott2644
    @gilgameschgottvaterdergott2644 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I setteled in the north east of the swamp.
    I hated these spiders, now i see them as toughness and medic traning
    I ran all the time from the truffle things 😂, didt know you could kill them
    I buy construction material all the time so my guys get fast and then sturdy
    I love the swamp its my home now in my 3rd time playing , and its so nice when i come from hilly and hot explorations and see my base gate in the fog to cool down amd smoke hashish

  • @AFilthyWeaboo
    @AFilthyWeaboo 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +6

    Says Europe shows Africa

    • @jimmyselsmark7346
      @jimmyselsmark7346 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I'm guessing he is American ;)

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

      I'll have you know I have a college degree from an American university.

    • @chuckn4851
      @chuckn4851 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@jimmyselsmark7346 Leave it to the European to not understand the nuances of American humor ;D

    • @jimmyselsmark7346
      @jimmyselsmark7346 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      @@chuckn4851 I have full faith in the intellect of the creator, but the joke also shows that he is American so is it actually (assuming you are American) the Americans not understanding the nuances of European humor? ;)

    • @onebigfatguy
      @onebigfatguy 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      @@jimmyselsmark7346 No one understands anything. I can agree with this lol

  •  7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    ah yes, the 3 europes allegory

  • @ggcvince9858
    @ggcvince9858 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    i love kenshi and your kenshi vids wanna play dark and darker w me :3

  • @TheRevan1337
    @TheRevan1337 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    "Three Europes."
    Inb4 it is Three Africas :P

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I am a victim of the American education system.

  • @jphang2950
    @jphang2950 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    It won’t let me launch the game of steam, was looking forward to playing it

  • @Fallout3131
    @Fallout3131 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What settings do you recommend / do you usually play with in terms of squad sizes, raids, etc?

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      I have been mixing it up more lately. I don't like to go above 30 characters. It gets too much at that point. I usually keep raids on the default setting, but it can be fun to increase their frequency. I think it all depends on what you're looking to do. If you're role playing as a faction at war with another faction, increasing the raid frequency is highly recommended. Makes it feel more immersive.

  • @rokmun680
    @rokmun680 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    The city of SHART

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  10 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You're the FIRST person to comment about that. I mispronounced it during recording and left it in there. Shart is such a lovely city.

  • @BurntToastBoi
    @BurntToastBoi 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +4

    That's no Europe, it's a space station

  • @Haki_66
    @Haki_66 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    i'm settle at Shem, and selling to swamp lol

  • @MedievalFantasyTV
    @MedievalFantasyTV 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    GTX 1660 and 32gb of RAM and I never get loading screens.

  • @thedeadwookie25
    @thedeadwookie25 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    south wetlands is pretty

  • @grammaton3773
    @grammaton3773 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Oh yes, US education system :D

    • @CyberBeep_kenshi
      @CyberBeep_kenshi 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

      there is education in america!?

  • @mrmonokel2335
    @mrmonokel2335 7 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    0:55 "3 Europes"
    - Uses Africas -

  • @CyberBeep_kenshi
    @CyberBeep_kenshi 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I would Not settle here, it's still not great with loading screens... i did settle onnan island south of it in the large lake. But it is not very active.
    You could make a small outpost for The 'grass' production, but even that is better along the shore near the strange town. which saves a lot of travel time lol

  • @sestil6759
    @sestil6759 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Obedience settlement when?

  • @RealJohnSlinkman
    @RealJohnSlinkman 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Swamplands bestlands

  • @amnesiac-original
    @amnesiac-original 5 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Best region.
    Btw. Don't kill turtles! They're friendly and nice

  • @BlackEyeGames
    @BlackEyeGames 10 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    no swamp is evil

  • @timpeetoom2199
    @timpeetoom2199 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Netherlands simulator

  • @Little-Buster
    @Little-Buster 2 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I don't like the swamp. It's all wet, sticky, stinky, muddy, damp and creepy. Once I saw a huge humanoid monster that resembled the slenderman. But once I got closer, it turned out to be just a tree.
    But I don't go to the swamp anymore unless I have to. I don't want to come across that tree at night, it might come alive then.

  • @Maethendias
    @Maethendias 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    "the slave market is right next door if you need to sell "goods" lmfao

  • @maurish8043
    @maurish8043 11 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What mod is this?

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  11 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Hey friend, the main mods I use are for: Genesis map (just the map), 3x attack slots, Squad Size 256, Dark UI, and Reactive World.

  • @murk336
    @murk336 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    0:56 Dude, you said Europe, but showed Africa.

    • @kanyon6539
      @kanyon6539 7 หลายเดือนก่อน

      it's a joke because the world seems to think Americans do not understand geography

  • @joecovino1907
    @joecovino1907 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    nice 😂 talks about Europe but shows a picture of Africa 👍

    • @paulrogersgaming
      @paulrogersgaming  8 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The American education system failed me

  • @zun-viik
    @zun-viik 9 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Swamp bois sad :(

  • @iamradical
    @iamradical 8 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    I am so bad at this game

  • @stephengarforth2753
    @stephengarforth2753 6 หลายเดือนก่อน

    spiders are worse then beak things