Brilliant, Brilliant 16 year old son. He brought tears to my eyes. Articulate, polite, concise. The daughter: "you never listened to me" good girl!! You tell them! Mr and Mrs Pinson are heroes, you have raised such amazing young people.
Wait for the whole family to come together in the last half. This is one of the most articulate, intelligent, loving families I have ever heard speak together on a deeply personal issue. These are extraordinarily courageous seekers of truth as they understand truth, and it’s a privilege to share the larger quest with people like the the Pinson family. I don’t know them and will likely never meet them, but they make the world we share together a better place. Thank you for all that you are and for all that you represent to your fellow pilgrims.
Well at least Sam and his family were gifted with the intelligence and wisdom to see the truth for themselves. Good for those who have seen the truth, not just on LDS but in all churches for that matter.
Sam, a resounding standing ovation from this listener. Your position is clear and unequivocal, and a bit of 'shock and awe' for those who simply refuse the truth of the matter by their own delusional mindset. Excellent discourse.
people in the church I agree with what he said about the Mormon church sorry about he feels that about God. I felt the same way for a while now I am a born again Christian THank you Heavenly Father and very Happy iam shunned by family members who are in the so called church cult thank you for these stories not done for Jesus Christ hope and pray that they open the Bible and read I will be praying for them ! They don't use the Bible the book of Mormon and ECT is their bible oh I have a joke and a Mormon told it Saint Peter was walking new people down a hallway he turns around to the people and says when he gets near a closed door please be quiet the Mormon s are in their and they think they are the only ones here that is true!
"If you'll cut a check, I'll resign iiiimmmmmmediately. That would be faaaannnnnntastic!" 🤣🤣🤣 Brilliant. I wish I could ask the Christian Church to do the same thing. That was my favorite part of the recording. You are my favorite "apostate"......💗
My GOD this was a sickly sweet gaslighting. They essentially cornered him to ASK for excommunication. Like an abusive partner saying "You asked for it."
@@sjpinson .. your family’s story touched my spirit on so many levels. I’m sorry you all had to endure these pains.. please know and please tell your son Sam that his story alone enlightened me and moved me in a positive direction regarding my own faith struggles! He has a powerful story to tell and I hope he continues to share it as well as his progress going forward! Thank you! 💞🙏🏽🙏🏽 💖
@@sjpinson why would you want to be a leader in a church when you don't believe in God? If you or your family had any integrity you would of stepped downed.. you're just another spineless modern sheep.. are we being recorded No you're a coward truth has nothing to do with your motives.. you actually managed to make the lds church look good
@@sjpinson 22mins in and I can't even listen to your lies claiming to want the truth yet nothing you said was true.. im no religious scholar but as a fan of history it's very well documented that the Roman's and Greeks were not racist they're biases were based off culture and the Roman's even believed the climate was the cause of the differences in people's.. so projecting you're own modern racism on people of the past.
Ohhhh my word. As a person who was in a relationship with a narcissistic person for a time…this was very eerily similar. Gaslighting at its finest. Kudos to Sam for speaking his truth. Truth always wins. Always.
And the whole family sharing their truth as well…so impactful and empowering. I am sure they all saw through the leaders and their false declarations of love. The weight their young adult children felt on their shoulders from all of this was probably so hard for them. It is so inspirational to hear their love for their dad.
My dad is also a narcissist. And this meeting reminds me of how my dad talks about anything he's unwilling to admit. An unsafe environment: All against 1, not allowed to have anyone in for the entire meeting with him, ignoring the actual reason for the meeting and redirecting to things that sound favorable for you (the council), and unfavorable to you (the member). Leading questions that infer you're the problem, you're over-reacting, you're hurting people, not them. Inferring you're, obsessed, greedy, selfish or manipulative. All narcissist tactics. The church is a narcissist.
How many people in the church have written a book and profited greatly from it? It's just insane how little self-awareness these guys have. It's insane how they can't see all of the parallels in their accusations and frustrations. I think the Mormon church definitely breeds the most arrogant and condescending of leaders.
I remember McConkie and also (H)Oaks as being lofty with their alleged knowledge back in the day. I don't keep track except to know that Bruce croaked. .
Sam ran circles around these educated men.... Its hilarious but sad to hear the council try to force him to resign and be quiet rather than excommunicate him on the spot. Asking Sam what is truth and then rejecting his logical response... Pure gold.
I loved how the church officials tried to turn the focus on excommunication because Sam had asked for it in the meeting, not because they had charged him with a crime against the church in the 1st place!
The church wanted to do this to me however I moved at the same time and was not going to allow 12 men to sit and accuse me and abuse me! I had already been abused by to many LDS men in my life never again!! I never went back and freedom was mine !!
"What false statements have I made?" Was answered with "what truths have you made?" This entire session was gaslighting. I've suffered at the hand of a narcissistic abuse for most of my life. I finally healed from it. When I saw the same patterns in the church and it's people, I made the choice to leave immediately. It's extremely harmful mentally and emotionally, dare I say even spiritually. Hearing others go through this abuse breaks my heart but reaffirms my good decision to leave.
I am in the process of having my name removed along with my husband. Along with the same reasons and others. I stand with him and his family all the way.
I have had so much more peace leaving behind the ideas and faith of the church over 10 years ago. I love questioning everything and using my own mind to to increase my understanding of all that there is to know. Call me a sinner but Im ok with not knowing everything, but it feels right to me. On the contrary, Im not in pain for your family for finding new enlightenment. I am happy for the liberation in getting out Good for you!
The personal attack argument according to those men is the equivalent to that office episode “I am a victim of a hate crime” “that’s not a hate crime” “well I hated it”
I love how you kept your cool Sam! This is eye opening at how the church deals with truth claims and they don’t accept the own words of their own prophets members etc direct quotes from church leaders doesn’t exist 🤦♀️
To tell someone to stop telling people the Mormon church is false but send out missionaries telling the world that their beliefs are false and they must join the Mormon church is pure arrogance and hypocrisy!
One of my favorite quotes from Joseph Smith is that he would fight to the death for ANYONE to practice what they believe, whatever it is. Ive heard nothing else from church leaders on the contrary. All members should get on board!
What kind of question is “Let me ask about your intent but you’re going to have to have an awfully good answer because I won’t believe you.....” Whaaaa?
I’m so curious how these relationships have evolved since this took place. It would be really interesting to see follow-up interviews. I hope this family is thriving.
Church dude: "We're friends....I'm your friend....I consider you a friend." Also "You don't know me from Adam." You handled yourself magnificently, Sam. Go forward with your awesome family. Love to you.
This is insaaaane. In my view, it seems like these ‘authorities’ just wanted this meeting to show sam how ‘wrong’ he is. So gross it’s such a power trip. 🤢 thank you for standing up for the truth Sam
This was one of my favorite things I’ve ever Heard. Thank you Sam For sharing this with us. I would love to have this same conversation with leaders myself if it ever comes to it. The only regret of it I have is I wished they had let you go into specific doctrinal debates. I also wish he had answered the question about hire Joesph’s marriage to the “nearly 15” year old strengthened his faith. He could’ve had an opportunity to strengthen yours if he shared, right? So he withheld information that could have saved your salvation by not doing that. To be clear, I don’t believe it would have and I feel exactly the same way You do sam, about everything. In fact you worded everything so perfectly, I’d like to memorize it and use it for myself if I ever get the chance. Thank you for sharing this. I want to hear more of these!
Glad to hear that everyone who spoke attempted to see the good in the situation.
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They call this meeting and say they haven't made up their mind after an hour of this they still claim that? Everyone knows that's a lie. These council's are a way to abuse people further regardless of the with love lie. Its so great this was recorded.
They act like they are being victimized as if members giving a lifetime of 10% of there livelihood is ridiculous reason for being frustrated. I appreciate how patient Sam is being patient. They are offended by the way he feels. How dare he feel offended by the church.
I don't understand why the Church rep. struggled, Mr. Pinson made himself perfectly clear and the only recourse would be to release him from his membership. The meeting was over with in the first five minutes.
So what really strikes me is that the man questioning Sam refuses to share how his faith was reaffirmed after learning Joseph married a 14 year old because its sacred not secret. Why is that always the answer whenever the church doesn’t have a rational explanation?
Thank you Sam for exposing this fraudulent organization aka CULT. If the only thing ppl can focus on is lying about recording then that tells you everything you need to know about them bc yikes to those that blindly defend these jokers.
It’s so painful to learn the deception so that’s his motivation. The church filled him with contempt for the lies and the time he put in and he feels embarrassed and doesn’t want others to feel the same way.
When the man says he loves his Catholic mother and other Catholic family, he talks like he’s above them. These men are belittling, condescending and small minded. Good for you Sam that you chose the truth over false beliefs. You are clearly more educated and well versed than these men. The way you speak is very intelligent, well spoken and articulate. Good for you for recording this debacle. More people should be shown the truth. The truth is the truth. There’s no hiding and no secrets. I applaud you Sam. When the men say they will still be your friends, they are acting like, yeah, we’ll still be your friend even though you’re beneath me, condescending. Thanks for standing up for the truth!
My "wow" moment: The SP, after hearing Sam Jr.'s beyond-his-years remarks and leading up to divulge what Pinson family believes to be a foregone conclusion, says, "I love you all. This is not personal." What? Did anyone else notice this hypocrisy? Earlier in the meeting, the "officers" of this council say that they take Sam Sr.'s criticism of the church in a very personal way despite him arguing to the contrary, yet they're just about to essentially divorce his whole family from the church for speaking the truth and expect him NOT to take it personal?
I noticed the hypocrisy of the ORG leaders, They care about no one, but to continue in their exception and keep others deceived which is their fear, that others wake up to their lies
This is absolutely classic, this man is absolutely fearless, he had an entire career at stake and chose the truth over a career in some religious organization.
@35:57 "like I said I've been on your side of the fence" bullshit. There is no way he would have figured the Church is a fraud and then go back. He has no idea where Sam is at.
These men remind me SO much of the (male) LDS therapists who tried to convince me to stay in an an abusive temple marriage. Such *DRAMA* veiled as caring and spirituality! They even employ that particular vocal affectation that some men in the Church use to try and convince people they're being holy and sincere and it's just SICK! 🤮 Thank you so much for sharing this 🙏.
Sam was my "bishop" in 2014-2015ish. But truly a wonderful family to be neighbors. It was this ward that sealed the deal of my leaving. The specific moment that stands out to me the most was in sunday school a member shared that "being gay is just a mental illness. You can get treatment and be cured." I got up and left that very moment. The church is damaging. It has been my largest cause of anxiety my entire life. It took 8 years for me to just tell my mom that I do not believe and that the church is a fraud. Just this past month. I heard their constant disdain and gossip of others whom have left. I didn't want to upset my parents, but mostly I didn't want their disapproval and to be their next source of gossip. Sara is a saint (you know what I mean 😂). Our children loved to play together and she helped me explore a little with homeschooling and teaching my children. I stumbled across this podcast and literally froze in disbelief. I have earnestly listened and tried to take in every word. This has been the most healing thing for me through this entire hellish journey. I also identify as an agnostic atheist. I have been told by my family this knowing this they "feel sad for me." The mental turmoil is as close to hell as I can imagine. I still struggle yearning for a form of community fellowship, but have only ever known finding that through the people in your own ward. It feels incredibly lonely and isolating being on the outside. But I find strength in knowing that I am no longer living a life that was destroying me inside. As well as the extra 10% of my income. 😂
Such well spoken responses. I walked away form the church 6 years ago, I haven’t openly spoken out about my experiences with the church over fear of hurting my family and being disowned. Publicly speaking the truth is so hard and this family is incredible! I have not removed my records, but this is giving me the courage to do so and to publicly denounce the pain and suffering the church causes.
@@JohnDLee-im4lo Joseph Smith History 1:28 "...persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me..."
Cuánto me identifico con Sam!!!! Claro hemos dedicado toda nuestra vida, talentos y tiempo a esta obra que cuando descubres que NOS HAN ENGAÑAO!!!! Porque irse calladitos para que se piense que la Iglesia es perfecta y somos nosotros quien queremos pecar por eso nos vamos!
I have had it wrong all my life, I thought truth was truth, I now know from hearing this there are 2 truths, your truth and my truth, and of course my truth trumps your truth as Im in charge. I cant tell you my truths as I promised I wouldn't its to sacred
As Sam Jr. said “It was a show trial”. So fake, they had no intention of, or interest in really listening to Sam Sr. or his family. The church leaders are so fake, it’s so clear after listening to everything before the family came in the room. I wasn’t that brave. My kids were persecuted by their peers at school after we left the church. The gaslighting is gross. I heard similar “we love you & your family” sentiments when our bishop at the time came to our home to find out why we weren’t attending. His kids were the meanest ones to my kids. I resigned, I didn’t go through an excommunication. I moved away a couple years later. That was in Hope Mills, N. Carolina in 2005.
Thank you so much John for such a great podcast. I just found out the truth of the church and am currently in the process of leaving. It is difficult and I'm in a lot of pain. But hearing Sam and his family's story has helped me get through a very hard week. Thank you Sam, for your courage and your amazing family. You have a great wife and children. I want to point out, though, that the scariest part of this recording, for me, is when Sam asked "So knowing that Joseph Smith went behind Emma's back and married a 14 year old does not affect your testimony whatsoever?" And the stake president replied "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet". That sent shivers down my spine. It honestly terrified me. I know that those are all good men, but I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics they jump through to say that in response to that question. Once again, thank you Sam and John for this series of podcast episodes.
He feels his time, money, and resources have been given under false pretenses. He has made life-altering decisions based on the church that he probably wouldn't have made otherwise. He is upset and feels a responsibility to tell others the truth. I don't see the issue in understanding him. I thought Elder Bednar gave a talk about how offense is taken and not given right? The offended members need to reevaluate and apply their faith. If the statement, "Jesus was a racist" totally unnerves a person they are in a fragile state and they probably shouldn't be on social media in the first place. The world is round and water is wet.
1:30:48 So gracious of him to welcome you into his "circle" even though you are no longer members. Its this type of self righteous attitude I cringe at now. 🙄
The leaders not admitting that the controversial things challenge their faith in no way whatsoever is so disingenuous. They are not being truthful. Being one sided is not necessary to be believing LDS and it's what turns people off from the church.
If they are going to put on the record charges of apostasy, then you should be able to have on the record your response to those charges. My mind was blown when he actually started off saying he wasn't going to believe your answer, and then later said "trust me I've been there" 🤦wtf?!
This is my biggest problem, i am still religious and care about truth, this man wants answers and they are not there, any church that turns away a truth seeker is obviously a cult, any church thats afraid of questioning has no answers, as a christian i am the same way, i love difficult topics and wont shy away from even troubling questions, from what i listened to he needs more historical answers.
Mormonism is extreme;y problematic both historically and theologically - it simply makes no sense, when carefully examined. Serious questioning causes other mormons to become incredibly angry and afraid.
@@heathermcdougall2399 right! And its also problematic when theological questions are dissmissed when all you know is what mormonism had to say, like jesus is racist, id say its the old men claiming to represent jesus thats bigots and they shouldnt be listened to! But this just puts you back to square one on the big theological questions.
@@Jupiter_Crash id want the source on god promoting slavery first of all, the idea that all slavery mimicks early american slavery is anacronistic, give me the example that your thinking of, alot of the slavery i find in the bible is another situation entirely, but thats not to say people calling themselves religious hasnt done terrible things, my worldview has an ultimate justice thet will come.
Danvan2 - For me the fact the 10 commandments don’t say “thou shalt not own another human being as property” is huge! As far as references to slaves: Exodus 21:20-21 (how to beat your slaves) Leviticus 25:44-46 (pick slaves from nations around you and they will become your property and your children can inherit them)
Every time they said that they love the family, I felt a gut punch because I feel like those in the church think that as long as we proclaim that we love a person it is ok to make horrible judgment over them.
@@christinadever5674 Obviously, excommunication would be an employment issue if you worked for the church. But some employers (other than the church) might find an excuse to fire an excommunicated member.
Hearing all of this takes me back to the days 18 years ago when I went to this new church right after my husband left me for another woman. They convinced me that I should give 10%. I stood there, very trusting, with the money in my hand and told the pastors wife that this is my 10% but now my children and me don't have money for food. It was my actual food money. She said "God will provide" and then she took my money. If I look back at my 28 year old self then, I feel so sorry for that poor me. I had so much tears in that church. Its a very long story of intense sadness that I experienced in that church because of people doing bad things to poor new believers in the name of God. If you don't do it your end up in hell. It makes me so angry thinking back...:(
@1:16:22 when the Stake President said he was “cursed” because he was Mexican did not learn about the priesthood ban the same way I did. I thought the ban was targeted at those of African-descent. Am I wrong?
Mormon Stories Podcast It is odd to me that Mexicans or Latinos were not mentioned, with the exception of Brazilians, as being excluded from the priesthood in the Gospel Topics Essay on Race and the Priesthood. Even the Spanish (lang=spa) version refers to those of African descent as being the focus of exclusion. Ludicrous. www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
Sam,it goes longer,but yet less is said,the conversion goes around in circles.These interrogators are stupid.What part of what you say do they not understand?🙏🏼
I am only 11 minutes in and I would respectfully like to ask: If he doesn't believe in Jesus Christ... why would he want to be a part of a church called The Church of Jesus Christ? I was surprised by his response to the first question. As a bishop, the first question in a Temple Recommend interview is about Jesus Christ. Whatever else the Church may stand for, whether or not it is good or true, whatever Russell M Nelson is or did.... I am simply confused. I would love to understand what reasons he might have to stay a member rather than removing his name or something like that. Thank you! ♡
You should listen to the entire audio recording. Even better, listen to all the other parts of our interview with John Dehlin. Your questions will be answered.
@@tjkasgl If you listen, he doesn't want money nor does he, nor has he asked for any. Your premise is without foundation. And you're right he wants to give attention to the process of being excommunicated. He also wants to show others who have left that they are not alone. He will not go quietly nor should he for anyone else's benefit.
I could be really long-winded and give anecdotal tales but this recording is a great argument for my belief that the meaning of "friend" in the church is extremely superficial.
Pretty awkward knowing that he knows all of the men and has worked with them. Honestly, if I were in his shoes I would not even have bothered to show up. It's ironic that they talk about evidence! I thought we just went off of feelings and what the leader above us tells us to do. Officers? News to me! I hate how condescending and holier than though these guys are - I'm embarrassed for them. It's also ridiculous when these leaders reference countenance and things like that. They can't tell. Where is this special power in leaders when a member is molesting his children? Also, evolution isn't the opposite of God. Lots of members believe in evolution and that is ok. This leader also seems to make the assumption that since Sam doesn't believe in Mormon doctrine that he doesn't love his family - I don't see how the 2 are connected.
Years ago I had a husband who abused me and my children sexually and the church made it out to be my fault because I wasn’t faithful enough! It was my fault for his salvation! Blew my mind!!! I left 13 years ago. The church is evil.
I really hope Sam (and people listening to this) recognizes that this man is not a true friend to Sam. He completely turned the tables on Sam and has made it look like they weren't going to ex him until Sam requested it. If you listen to the whole thing, you can tell that he was likely planning on taking away his membership, learned of the dilemma he was in, found out Sam wanted to be ex'ed, then turned the tables.. If there were going to be, say, any legal proceeding or challenging the church, his "friend" has made that 100% impossible for Sam. So glad Sam recorded the whole thing. The story would have been totally twisted without the sound bites.
I think it's sad nobody ever says "Yes, it was awful for Emma and for that 14 year old, but I don't get it" it's always about Joseph. We still never hear about the women, and I'm not a femanist and I'm LDS. I don't think these courts feel kind. They feel defensive and frankly not godly, but very human. My ex was part of a church court, as a high counsel member, against a man he was sleeping with! Of course, that never came out at that point, but when my ex came home he told me it was such a "spiritual experience". He was just glad it never came out. Just because they say "We love you and this hurts us" that's just BS.
How can you say they don't love them and it doesn't hurt them?. Just because they're in a cult doesn't mean they're automatically evil men with no feelings....
I'm only 30 minutes in, they might address this point later, but they are much more concerned about people being offended than the truth. If you're a church claiming to be the only true authority and intention of God, but can't hold truth to a higher priority than your feelings then you lose credibility.
I've listened to this audio at least a dozen times. There are so many befuddling things about this disciplinary council. If a central tenant of Mormonism is to "Study {things} out in your mind", the men on this disciplinary council fall far short of that spiritual council. It's not surprising though; most members of the church don't study things out - they feel it out. At 17:40, one of the men introduces a rhetorical question as though it were a profound idea "Is it possible that I can be 100% sure of something and be wrong?" Sam replies cogently and intelligently that it is possible to be sure, yet wrong. The follow-up question at 17:59, "Is it possible that you could be 100% sure you're right about something and it's not accurate?" Sam says, "Sure." The man then responds with an awkward, breathless tone, as if he mined some deep insight. "Okay, I just wanted to say that." Sincerely? I get spirituality is esoteric and often serves to reinforce our biases. To the believer, clinging to the unknown under the noble banner of faith and spiritual fortitude is easier than handling hard truths; especially when those truths erode the very foundation of their beliefs. Even still, to leave the mind behind is intellectually reckless and spiritually irresponsible. The men in this interview leave the distinct impression they have their heads in quicksand. Any attempt to educate and inform them of incontrovertible facts, they slip further into the suffocating sands of denial. If the Church is true and the devil is real, their adversary is wearing Nike's and trains like a champ. Every. Single. Day. He's running laps around the Church and laughing all the way. Oppositely, Mormon leadership is wearing ancient leather flipflops; broken and threadbare, clinging doggedly to an obtuse world view. If the Church is true, why can't they be as intellectual as they try to be spiritual? In closing, let me bear my testimony. Yea, I shall even prophesy in the manner of ancient prophets: Yea verily, I say unto you, be thou watchful in the last days, for if the Church doesn't grow up, an increasing number of its members will grow out of it. I say these things in the name of truth and wisdom, Amen.
sam clearly wanted to make this an intellectual discussion. he had gained knowledge by reading literature and wanted to challenge the church on what he had found out. nothing wrong with that from an intellectual point of view. but it's a spiritual dead end. but people think that is how you find God. no. it's how you feed your ego. people like this fall into the trap of questioning what they DO KNOW because of what they don't know (and I think the stake president alluded to this in his own words). and then they decide they don't know anything. a lot of people in the mormon church don't have a testimony of it. some of them know it. other's think they have a testimony but it's build on quicksand (the ego).
@@wasatchm according to LDS theology, we're to study things out in our mind and then ask if it's true. Intellect and spirit are an ideal paring - but many people had a burning testimony black skin was a curse from God as taught by Brigham Young - yet, modern theology has completely disavowed that former doctrine. There is so much room for faith - but it is so often replaced by folly. The quicksand is in not thinking for ourselves.
Notice how the Church leaders accused him of wanting to write a book and sell it, profiting off of his experience and saying that is not okay. Yet you can walk into Deseret Book and buy all the books written by Apostles and General authorities and somehow That’s ok for them to profit off the so-called true church,
I am not a mormon, but I have been looking at the duplicity of the men questioning Sam is unbelievable. I am blessed that I believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament not the lies of a sinful man, Joseph Smith. I am so sad that Sam and his family were only exposed to the lies of Joseph Smith. But, these men are unbelievably false witnesses and Sam and his family are well rid of them all.
I've said this before, in different ways, but if people want to live in a certain way, and believe in something that speaks to them and their chosen lifestyle, then they should. Does there need to be a doctrine that has to be a "truth" for them to follow? I don't know. Maybe one cannot exist without the other. It's a shame that things have to come to this.
Thank you for recording and posting this. I have officially been out a year, a few months ago, I am at the point where I can listen to and respond to some things withing getting triggered and extremely upset. I had thought that the church was no longer doing a lot of ex-communications, from something I read I think in the General handbook that was put out online by the church around Feb this year. This video and your experience showed otherwise. More proof to me of how the church says one thing yet does the exact opposite or slowly changes the information that most people will not notice.
Sam you should have done the prayer asking that the hippocrits be shown the light of the truth...they wouldn't have gotten the irony but it would have been priceless
As hard as it is coming out of a cult and feeling depleted. Hope and grace and salvation come only thru Christ and not any church. Run away from this cult. Listening to this makes me sick!! So sorry yall had to go thru this.
How many people have been excommunicated because of their Face Book posts? As the head of the house hold Sam (senior) should have had the right to have all of his family members present whenever he wanted during this what appears to be ridiculous meeting.
HEY...HEY...ALL BELONGING TO CHURCHES ARE VOLUNTARY AND YOU DONT HAVE TO BELONG TO ANY CHURCH IF YOU DONT WANT TO. SO IT MAKES NO SENSE WHY YOU WOULD STAY THERE AND WAIT FOR LEADERSHIP TO QUESTION YOU. HE DID SAY HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD...WHY DID HE STAY THERE. SEEMS LIKE HE WAS BUILDING UP AN AGENDA. I MET PEOPLE WHO DONT BELIEVE AND CONTINUE TO HAVE FRIENDSHIP WITH THEM. I REALLY DONT LIKE PEOPLE TELLING ME MY CHURCH IS WRONG...LET ME DECIDE...NOT ANYONE. HE IS ON FACEBOOK TO GET CONFIRMATION FOR HIMSELF FROM OTHERS TO BE RIGHT.....FOR HIM. YAPPING ON FACEBOOK REALLY SHOWS AGENDA. QUESTIONS ABOUT RELIGION IS PERSONAL AND WHY ASK AND TELL PEOPLE HOW YOU FEEL....NO ONE CARES..WE HAVE PROBLEMS BIGGER THAN THIS. HES UNHAPPY AND UNSURE. YEAH. BEEN THERE. I QUIETLY DEALT WITH IT...AM HAPPY NOW. SO GLAD I DIDNT WAVE FLAGS. WHAT FOR.
@@pronerfer3636 People who are being defrauded don't know what's happening. People that realize they are being defrauded extract themselves from the situation. Naturally, the people perpetuating the fraud want them to go away in silence. What's the moral and kind thing to do here? Allow others to continue to be defrauded? Or provide them with the information they need to make an informed decision? My Facebook activity is to warn others about the fraud and provide them with the opportunity to make an informed decision. If they have all the information and still want to be part of the fraud, that is fine. Rather than berating apostates and critics, the church should really honor and thank us. Just imagine what the LDS church would look like if there were no critics and every apostate remained silent. Polygamy never would have been abandoned. The racist doctrines never would have been disavowed. Sexism in the church never would have been reduced. In that world, the current LDS church would be like a polygamous KKK.
@@pronerfer3636 you fail to acknowledge a couple of things- That Mormons constantly go on missions to evangelize people in other cultures. Do I even need to explain the problem with this Christian imperialism? Another problem is the lack of informed consent. Children who are brought up and raised in this church in many cases don’t have any outside influences and aren’t given all the facts in which to draw their own conclusions. If you can’t ask questions regarding historical facts that the church themselves publish- if you can’t do that without social repercussions in that community, is it really a good environment to develop a healthy relationship with their religion? And before you respond about kids being raised in other religions-LDS is an intense, high demand religion in which many people experience intense shame for doing and thinking anything that can be interpreted as controversial to the organization. If the church is so strong in its truth, why is the culture of suppression so very prominent? You can’t ask people to question the truth of their own faith (as non-LDS) then use deflection and shame when those same investigative questions are asked about church history and doctrine. If the LDS didn’t operate so suspiciously, it wouldn’t be so easy to ruffle their feathers. Personally, I believe mankind has a pretty consistent track record of individuals exploiting people for power and wealth. Snake oil salesmen have had devotees just as convinced and faithful as you. Cults (not an accusation) aren’t successful because their tactics are obvious and easy to resist. It’s not like cults happen because of gullible people. Like it or not, some of the most intelligent people have been taken in by charismatic lies. Lies that disguise themselves to be the sweet nectar of salvation. When you’re in it, you don’t have to tools to recognize when you’re being manipulated. That’s why someone like Sam speaks on it. That’s why he can’t just ignore the church and walk away. It’s like he learned his parent never loved him. Imagine learning that the close relationship he thought they had was one sided; that he cared for them deeply but for his parent it was more or less an act. They used deceit and manipulation to construct this idea that he had a happy childhood and with love and devotion. Then to top it off he found out that his parent was also doing it to his other small siblings. I can’t imagine if you were in his shoes, you’d be okay with just leaving quietly.
IF Jesus Christ came to the American continent....IF the book of mormon is true....well, it's not, plain and simple. They wanted to set that parameter to try to prove their point. It's a moot point.
Brilliant, Brilliant 16 year old son. He brought tears to my eyes. Articulate, polite, concise.
The daughter: "you never listened to me" good girl!! You tell them!
Mr and Mrs Pinson are heroes, you have raised such amazing young people.
I had to skip pass the son’s commentary in episode 4.
Wait for the whole family to come together in the last half. This is one of the most articulate, intelligent, loving families I have ever heard speak together on a deeply personal issue. These are extraordinarily courageous seekers of truth as they understand truth, and it’s a privilege to share the larger quest with people like the the Pinson family. I don’t know them and will likely never meet them, but they make the world we share together a better place. Thank you for all that you are and for all that you represent to your fellow pilgrims.
He conducted himself wonderfully. My heart ached for the awkwardness of the questioning as I listened and cheered for his courage and honesty.
Well at least Sam and his family were gifted with the intelligence and wisdom to see the truth for themselves. Good for those who have seen the truth, not just on LDS but in all churches for that matter.
Sam, a resounding standing ovation from this listener. Your position is clear and unequivocal, and a bit of 'shock and awe' for those who simply refuse the truth of the matter by their own delusional mindset. Excellent discourse.
Good for you Sam! They are worried about their image black s are not wanted I was surprised when I saw Black
people in the church I agree with what he said about the Mormon church sorry about he feels that about God. I felt the same way for a while now I am a born again Christian THank you Heavenly Father and very Happy iam shunned by family members who are in the so called church cult thank you for these stories not done for Jesus Christ hope and pray that they open the Bible and read I will be praying for them ! They don't use the Bible the book of Mormon and ECT is their bible oh I have a joke and a Mormon told it Saint Peter was walking new people down a hallway he turns around to the people and says when he gets near a closed door please be quiet the Mormon s are in their and they think they are the only ones here that is true!
"If you'll cut a check, I'll resign iiiimmmmmmediately. That would be faaaannnnnntastic!" 🤣🤣🤣
Brilliant.
I wish I could ask the Christian Church to do the same thing. That was my favorite part of the recording. You are my favorite "apostate"......💗
My GOD this was a sickly sweet gaslighting. They essentially cornered him to ASK for excommunication. Like an abusive partner saying "You asked for it."
Yep, I did not resign, despite their dishonest claims to the contrary.
@@sjpinson .. your family’s story touched my spirit on so many levels. I’m sorry you all had to endure these pains.. please know and please tell your son Sam that his story alone enlightened me and moved me in a positive direction regarding my own faith struggles! He has a powerful story to tell and I hope he continues to share it as well as his progress going forward! Thank you! 💞🙏🏽🙏🏽 💖
@@AllisonJames810 Thanks! Best wishes to you!
@@sjpinson why would you want to be a leader in a church when you don't believe in God? If you or your family had any integrity you would of stepped downed.. you're just another spineless modern sheep.. are we being recorded No you're a coward truth has nothing to do with your motives.. you actually managed to make the lds church look good
@@sjpinson 22mins in and I can't even listen to your lies claiming to want the truth yet nothing you said was true.. im no religious scholar but as a fan of history it's very well documented that the Roman's and Greeks were not racist they're biases were based off culture and the Roman's even believed the climate was the cause of the differences in people's.. so projecting you're own modern racism on people of the past.
Ohhhh my word. As a person who was in a relationship with a narcissistic person for a time…this was very eerily similar. Gaslighting at its finest. Kudos to Sam for speaking his truth. Truth always wins. Always.
And the whole family sharing their truth as well…so impactful and empowering. I am sure they all saw through the leaders and their false declarations of love. The weight their young adult children felt on their shoulders from all of this was probably so hard for them. It is so inspirational to hear their love for their dad.
My dad is also a narcissist. And this meeting reminds me of how my dad talks about anything he's unwilling to admit.
An unsafe environment: All against 1, not allowed to have anyone in for the entire meeting with him, ignoring the actual reason for the meeting and redirecting to things that sound favorable for you (the council), and unfavorable to you (the member). Leading questions that infer you're the problem, you're over-reacting, you're hurting people, not them. Inferring you're, obsessed, greedy, selfish or manipulative. All narcissist tactics. The church is a narcissist.
Your name will *never* be "off the records" of the Church. An extensive and detailed record will always be maintained. More now than ever.
I have so much respect for the entire Pinson family. Stay close and love each other.
How many people in the church have written a book and profited greatly from it? It's just insane how little self-awareness these guys have. It's insane how they can't see all of the parallels in their accusations and frustrations. I think the Mormon church definitely breeds the most arrogant and condescending of leaders.
I remember McConkie and also (H)Oaks as being lofty with their alleged knowledge back in the day. I don't keep track except to know that Bruce croaked. .
Agreed 100%
Sam ran circles around these educated men.... Its hilarious but sad to hear the council try to force him to resign and be quiet rather than excommunicate him on the spot. Asking Sam what is truth and then rejecting his logical response... Pure gold.
I loved how the church officials tried to turn the focus on excommunication because Sam had asked for it in the meeting, not because they had charged him with a crime against the church in the 1st place!
The church wanted to do this to me however I moved at the same time and was not going to allow 12 men to sit and accuse me and abuse me! I had already been abused by to many LDS men in my life never again!! I never went back and freedom was mine !!
"What false statements have I made?" Was answered with "what truths have you made?" This entire session was gaslighting. I've suffered at the hand of a narcissistic abuse for most of my life. I finally healed from it. When I saw the same patterns in the church and it's people, I made the choice to leave immediately. It's extremely harmful mentally and emotionally, dare I say even spiritually. Hearing others go through this abuse breaks my heart but reaffirms my good decision to leave.
"We're not being recorded?" My goodness, how different, and much shorter, would this have been, if they knew that they were.
@@randyjordan5521 of course its okay to lie to achieve a result, and even if it wasn't, it would still be effective.
If they have nothing to hide the question of recording never would be asked
I am in the process of having my name removed along with my husband. Along with the same reasons and others. I stand with him and his family all the way.
So proud of Sam. This is amazing. Good for him. Truth will prevail
I have had so much more peace leaving behind the ideas and faith of the church over 10 years ago. I love questioning everything and using my own mind to to increase my understanding of all that there is to know. Call me a sinner but Im ok with not knowing everything, but it feels right to me. On the contrary, Im not in pain for your family for finding new enlightenment. I am happy for the liberation in getting out Good for you!
The personal attack argument according to those men is the equivalent to that office episode “I am a victim of a hate crime” “that’s not a hate crime” “well I hated it”
In the words of the late great Leonard Cohen, "There's a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in."
I love how you kept your cool Sam! This is eye opening at how the church deals with truth claims and they don’t accept the own words of their own prophets members etc direct quotes from church leaders doesn’t exist 🤦♀️
To tell someone to stop telling people the Mormon church is false but send out missionaries telling the world that their beliefs are false and they must join the Mormon church is pure arrogance and hypocrisy!
One of my favorite quotes from Joseph Smith is that he would fight to the death for ANYONE to practice what they believe, whatever it is. Ive heard nothing else from church leaders on the contrary. All members should get on board!
What kind of question is “Let me ask about your intent but you’re going to have to have an awfully good answer because I won’t believe you.....” Whaaaa?
I’m so curious how these relationships have evolved since this took place. It would be really interesting to see follow-up interviews. I hope this family is thriving.
Church dude: "We're friends....I'm your friend....I consider you a friend." Also "You don't know me from Adam." You handled yourself magnificently, Sam. Go forward with your awesome family. Love to you.
This is insaaaane. In my view, it seems like these ‘authorities’ just wanted this meeting to show sam how ‘wrong’ he is. So gross it’s such a power trip. 🤢 thank you for standing up for the truth Sam
Stop spewing your hate. You would want a Mormon man more than anything right now I bet!
“So you’re going to go to every religion and claim their a fraud?”
Me: “yeah I went on a mission” lol
🤣
Secret=Sacred in Mormonism
Fascinating. Embarrassing. Enlightening. Sam is a very lucky man, family wise and much kinder than many of us could be.
This was one of my favorite things I’ve ever Heard. Thank you Sam For sharing this with us. I would love to have this same conversation with leaders myself if it ever comes to it. The only regret of it I have is I wished they had let you go into specific doctrinal debates. I also wish he had answered the question about hire Joesph’s marriage to the “nearly 15” year old strengthened his faith. He could’ve had an opportunity to strengthen yours if he shared, right? So he withheld information that could have saved your salvation by not doing that. To be clear, I don’t believe it would have and I feel exactly the same way You do sam, about everything. In fact you worded everything so perfectly, I’d like to memorize it and use it for myself if I ever get the chance. Thank you for sharing this. I want to hear more of these!
Glad to hear that everyone who spoke attempted to see the good in the situation.
They call this meeting and say they haven't made up their mind after an hour of this they still claim that? Everyone knows that's a lie. These council's are a way to abuse people further regardless of the with love lie. Its so great this was recorded.
They act like they are being victimized as if members giving a lifetime of 10% of there livelihood is ridiculous reason for being frustrated. I appreciate how patient Sam is being patient. They are offended by the way he feels. How dare he feel offended by the church.
So much respect for you guys! Thanks for posting this and speaking the TRUTH!
I don't understand why the Church rep. struggled, Mr. Pinson made himself perfectly clear and the only recourse would be to release him from his membership. The meeting was over with in the first five minutes.
Your whole family is amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your truth. This has helped me so much!
So what really strikes me is that the man questioning Sam refuses to share how his faith was reaffirmed after learning Joseph married a 14 year old because its sacred not secret. Why is that always the answer whenever the church doesn’t have a rational explanation?
Cognitive dissonance, my friend. The brain will do what it must to gloss over the gaps in the name of consistency.
What a devoted and loving family.
Nancy Angeles-Medina
Ex-Mormon as well.
At this point leaders are going through the motions and don’t care what their answers are. “Fair enough” “okay” ....
You are very lucky. There are situations that turn vicious and life-destroying.
Thank you Sam for exposing this fraudulent organization aka CULT. If the only thing ppl can focus on is lying about recording then that tells you everything you need to know about them bc yikes to those that blindly defend these jokers.
It’s so painful to learn the deception so that’s his motivation. The church filled him with contempt for the lies and the time he put in and he feels embarrassed and doesn’t want others to feel the same way.
I know the feeling
When the man says he loves his Catholic mother and other Catholic family, he talks like he’s above them. These men are belittling, condescending and small minded. Good for you Sam that you chose the truth over false beliefs. You are clearly more educated and well versed than these men. The way you speak is very intelligent, well spoken and articulate. Good for you for recording this debacle. More people should be shown the truth. The truth is the truth. There’s no hiding and no secrets. I applaud you Sam. When the men say they will still be your friends, they are acting like, yeah, we’ll still be your friend even though you’re beneath me, condescending. Thanks for standing up for the truth!
My "wow" moment: The SP, after hearing Sam Jr.'s beyond-his-years remarks and leading up to divulge what Pinson family believes to be a foregone conclusion, says, "I love you all. This is not personal." What? Did anyone else notice this hypocrisy? Earlier in the meeting, the "officers" of this council say that they take Sam Sr.'s criticism of the church in a very personal way despite him arguing to the contrary, yet they're just about to essentially divorce his whole family from the church for speaking the truth and expect him NOT to take it personal?
Excellent observation!
I noticed the hypocrisy of the ORG leaders, They care about no one, but to continue in their exception and keep others deceived which is their fear, that others wake up to their lies
This is absolutely classic, this man is absolutely fearless, he had an entire career at stake and chose the truth over a career in some religious organization.
@35:57 "like I said I've been on your side of the fence" bullshit. There is no way he would have figured the Church is a fraud and then go back. He has no idea where Sam is at.
These men remind me SO much of the (male) LDS therapists who tried to convince me to stay in an an abusive temple marriage. Such *DRAMA* veiled as caring and spirituality! They even employ that particular vocal affectation that some men in the Church use to try and convince people they're being holy and sincere and it's just SICK! 🤮 Thank you so much for sharing this 🙏.
Also, I LOVE how Sam is having NONE of their drama!
Sam was my "bishop" in 2014-2015ish. But truly a wonderful family to be neighbors. It was this ward that sealed the deal of my leaving. The specific moment that stands out to me the most was in sunday school a member shared that "being gay is just a mental illness. You can get treatment and be cured."
I got up and left that very moment.
The church is damaging. It has been my largest cause of anxiety my entire life. It took 8 years for me to just tell my mom that I do not believe and that the church is a fraud. Just this past month. I heard their constant disdain and gossip of others whom have left. I didn't want to upset my parents, but mostly I didn't want their disapproval and to be their next source of gossip.
Sara is a saint (you know what I mean 😂). Our children loved to play together and she helped me explore a little with homeschooling and teaching my children.
I stumbled across this podcast and literally froze in disbelief. I have earnestly listened and tried to take in every word. This has been the most healing thing for me through this entire hellish journey. I also identify as an agnostic atheist. I have been told by my family this knowing this they "feel sad for me." The mental turmoil is as close to hell as I can imagine. I still struggle yearning for a form of community fellowship, but have only ever known finding that through the people in your own ward. It feels incredibly lonely and isolating being on the outside. But I find strength in knowing that I am no longer living a life that was destroying me inside. As well as the extra 10% of my income. 😂
Such well spoken responses. I walked away form the church 6 years ago, I haven’t openly spoken out about my experiences with the church over fear of hurting my family and being disowned. Publicly speaking the truth is so hard and this family is incredible! I have not removed my records, but this is giving me the courage to do so and to publicly denounce the pain and suffering the church causes.
@@JohnDLee-im4lo Joseph Smith History 1:28
"...persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and to have treated me kindly, and if they supposed me to be deluded to have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me..."
LDS can't do truth. Thank you for standing for it Sam, it cost me everything too. I still stand.
Nobody:
Literally nobody:
Chruch leaders: We just want you to know how much we love you. We just love you and love you.
♥️💣
“You are no longer a member of the church of Jesus Christ of blah blah blah”
Thank 👏🏻 god 👏🏻
Well, The SP said one thing right. Sam's Son is very eloquent. Well done!
Cuánto me identifico con Sam!!!!
Claro hemos dedicado toda nuestra vida, talentos y tiempo a esta obra que cuando descubres que NOS HAN ENGAÑAO!!!!
Porque irse calladitos para que se piense que la Iglesia es perfecta y somos nosotros quien queremos pecar por eso nos vamos!
I have had it wrong all my life, I thought truth was truth, I now know from hearing this there are 2 truths, your truth and my truth, and of course my truth trumps your truth as Im in charge.
I cant tell you my truths as I promised I wouldn't its to sacred
That may have been said, but the meaning behind it was 'We agree that there is absolute truth, but we disagree on what is true'.
As Sam Jr. said “It was a show trial”. So fake, they had no intention of, or interest in really listening to Sam Sr. or his family. The church leaders are so fake, it’s so clear after listening to everything before the family came in the room.
I wasn’t that brave. My kids were persecuted by their peers at school after we left the church. The gaslighting is gross. I heard similar “we love you & your family” sentiments when our bishop at the time came to our home to find out why we weren’t attending. His kids were the meanest ones to my kids. I resigned, I didn’t go through an excommunication. I moved away a couple years later. That was in Hope Mills, N. Carolina in 2005.
Is it just me, or is it infuriating that they keep interrupting him?? This whole thing makes me want to scream
Yup
In their eyes they are justified in doing that as it shows their superiority.
Thank you so much John for such a great podcast. I just found out the truth of the church and am currently in the process of leaving. It is difficult and I'm in a lot of pain. But hearing Sam and his family's story has helped me get through a very hard week. Thank you Sam, for your courage and your amazing family. You have a great wife and children. I want to point out, though, that the scariest part of this recording, for me, is when Sam asked "So knowing that Joseph Smith went behind Emma's back and married a 14 year old does not affect your testimony whatsoever?" And the stake president replied "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet". That sent shivers down my spine. It honestly terrified me. I know that those are all good men, but I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics they jump through to say that in response to that question. Once again, thank you Sam and John for this series of podcast episodes.
He feels his time, money, and resources have been given under false pretenses. He has made life-altering decisions based on the church that he probably wouldn't have made otherwise. He is upset and feels a responsibility to tell others the truth. I don't see the issue in understanding him. I thought Elder Bednar gave a talk about how offense is taken and not given right? The offended members need to reevaluate and apply their faith. If the statement, "Jesus was a racist" totally unnerves a person they are in a fragile state and they probably shouldn't be on social media in the first place. The world is round and water is wet.
Great point.
1:30:48 So gracious of him to welcome you into his "circle" even though you are no longer members. Its this type of self righteous attitude I cringe at now. 🙄
The leaders not admitting that the controversial things challenge their faith in no way whatsoever is so disingenuous. They are not being truthful. Being one sided is not necessary to be believing LDS and it's what turns people off from the church.
If they are going to put on the record charges of apostasy, then you should be able to have on the record your response to those charges. My mind was blown when he actually started off saying he wasn't going to believe your answer, and then later said "trust me I've been there" 🤦wtf?!
This is my biggest problem, i am still religious and care about truth, this man wants answers and they are not there, any church that turns away a truth seeker is obviously a cult, any church thats afraid of questioning has no answers, as a christian i am the same way, i love difficult topics and wont shy away from even troubling questions, from what i listened to he needs more historical answers.
Mormonism is extreme;y problematic both historically and theologically - it simply makes no sense, when carefully examined. Serious questioning causes other mormons to become incredibly angry and afraid.
@@heathermcdougall2399 right! And its also problematic when theological questions are dissmissed when all you know is what mormonism had to say, like jesus is racist, id say its the old men claiming to represent jesus thats bigots and they shouldnt be listened to! But this just puts you back to square one on the big theological questions.
Danvan2- if you’re open to challenging stuff I have a question for you. How can you believe in a god who thinks slavery is ok?
@@Jupiter_Crash id want the source on god promoting slavery first of all, the idea that all slavery mimicks early american slavery is anacronistic, give me the example that your thinking of, alot of the slavery i find in the bible is another situation entirely, but thats not to say people calling themselves religious hasnt done terrible things, my worldview has an ultimate justice thet will come.
Danvan2 - For me the fact the 10 commandments don’t say “thou shalt not own another human being as property” is huge!
As far as references to slaves:
Exodus 21:20-21 (how to beat your slaves)
Leviticus 25:44-46 (pick slaves from nations around you and they will become your property and your children can inherit them)
Every time they said that they love the family, I felt a gut punch because I feel like those in the church think that as long as we proclaim that we love a person it is ok to make horrible judgment over them.
That's what my LDS parents do
@@kckush5046 love the sinner, hate the sin. What sin?!?!
Yes!! And when his family came in they're suddenly so nice. The one guy said, "Your dad is awesome."
Talk about emotional manipulation.
Thankfully, Sam is self sufficient. I've spoken to many Ex's whom have lost their jobs and livelihoods shortly after the Disciplinary Council.
gbriank1 That is the church’s fault how? If they worked for the church....actions have consequences.
@@christinadever5674 If you are punished via Excommunication, you are fired. It is in the contract you sign.
@@christinadever5674 Obviously, excommunication would be an employment issue if you worked for the church. But some employers (other than the church) might find an excuse to fire an excommunicated member.
Sam Pinson I mentioned if they worked for the church they would lose their jobs and they should.
gbriank1 if they are employed by the church, yes
Hearing all of this takes me back to the days 18 years ago when I went to this new church right after my husband left me for another woman. They convinced me that I should give 10%. I stood there, very trusting, with the money in my hand and told the pastors wife that this is my 10% but now my children and me don't have money for food. It was my actual food money. She said "God will provide" and then she took my money. If I look back at my 28 year old self then, I feel so sorry for that poor me. I had so much tears in that church. Its a very long story of intense sadness that I experienced in that church because of people doing bad things to poor new believers in the name of God. If you don't do it your end up in hell. It makes me so angry thinking back...:(
Makes me sick, churches have billions.
@1:16:22 when the Stake President said he was “cursed” because he was Mexican did not learn about the priesthood ban the same way I did. I thought the ban was targeted at those of African-descent. Am I wrong?
The Book of Mormon dark skin curse is for Latinos.
Mormon Stories Podcast It is odd to me that Mexicans or Latinos were not mentioned, with the exception of Brazilians, as being excluded from the priesthood in the Gospel Topics Essay on Race and the Priesthood. Even the Spanish (lang=spa) version refers to those of African descent as being the focus of exclusion. Ludicrous.
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
We're all cursed...
@@pronerfer3636 And some of us, according to LDS doctrine, were extra wicked and so received an extra special cursing of dark skin.
@@kennethd.9436 there is a theory that the church growth in Brazil led to the lifting if the band.
Sam,it goes longer,but yet less is said,the conversion goes around in circles.These interrogators are stupid.What part of what you say do they not understand?🙏🏼
All that said, the children look beautiful and very nice .... to be true
Why can’t these be recorded?
I’ve heard there is NO archeology evidence for the Book of Mormon is this true?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_and_the_Book_of_Mormon#:~:text=There%20is%20no%20archaeological%20evidence,theory%20is%20disputed%20and%20circumstantial.
Yes. 100% true.
Have you done a podcast on how they justify no archeology evidence?
Absolutely. 100% true. But the Mormons will never admit it.
th-cam.com/video/G1mFdO1wB08/w-d-xo.html
I am only 11 minutes in and I would respectfully like to ask: If he doesn't believe in Jesus Christ... why would he want to be a part of a church called The Church of Jesus Christ?
I was surprised by his response to the first question. As a bishop, the first question in a Temple Recommend interview is about Jesus Christ. Whatever else the Church may stand for, whether or not it is good or true, whatever Russell M Nelson is or did.... I am simply confused. I would love to understand what reasons he might have to stay a member rather than removing his name or something like that.
Thank you! ♡
You should listen to the entire audio recording. Even better, listen to all the other parts of our interview with John Dehlin. Your questions will be answered.
He was forcing the bishop into this so he could record it and get attention from other people like him. Probably to get financial support from them.
@@tjkasgl That is a crazy idea.
Plus I think it was totally ok to record it. Why not? It is all about truth, isn't?
@@tjkasgl If you listen, he doesn't want money nor does he, nor has he asked for any. Your premise is without foundation. And you're right he wants to give attention to the process of being excommunicated. He also wants to show others who have left that they are not alone. He will not go quietly nor should he for anyone else's benefit.
The church makes it difficult to remove your name. It's there own fault.
They really love him, didn’t want to loose him. What a contrast to Jehovah witness,it’s pure facts and pre conceived outcome with them.
Praying that this family will know the true Savior, Jesus Christ of the Bible.
I could be really long-winded and give anecdotal tales but this recording is a great argument for my belief that the meaning of "friend" in the church is extremely superficial.
Maybe they went home and cried losing for a time this beautiful, intelligent family. Who knows. I cried.
I can’t believe how much they try to pin you down with your own words and their own context!
It could be a killer drinking game. Haha.
Pretty awkward knowing that he knows all of the men and has worked with them. Honestly, if I were in his shoes I would not even have bothered to show up. It's ironic that they talk about evidence! I thought we just went off of feelings and what the leader above us tells us to do. Officers? News to me! I hate how condescending and holier than though these guys are - I'm embarrassed for them. It's also ridiculous when these leaders reference countenance and things like that. They can't tell. Where is this special power in leaders when a member is molesting his children? Also, evolution isn't the opposite of God. Lots of members believe in evolution and that is ok. This leader also seems to make the assumption that since Sam doesn't believe in Mormon doctrine that he doesn't love his family - I don't see how the 2 are connected.
Years ago I had a husband who abused me and my children sexually and the church made it out to be my fault because I wasn’t faithful enough! It was my fault for his salvation! Blew my mind!!! I left 13 years ago. The church is evil.
I’ve watched a lot of police interrogations and they sound exactly like this.
They don’t want the truth,even if it smacks them in the face..🌹
I really hope Sam (and people listening to this) recognizes that this man is not a true friend to Sam. He completely turned the tables on Sam and has made it look like they weren't going to ex him until Sam requested it. If you listen to the whole thing, you can tell that he was likely planning on taking away his membership, learned of the dilemma he was in, found out Sam wanted to be ex'ed, then turned the tables.. If there were going to be, say, any legal proceeding or challenging the church, his "friend" has made that 100% impossible for Sam. So glad Sam recorded the whole thing. The story would have been totally twisted without the sound bites.
Did not really make since. They had plenty of grounds to argue apostasy.
I think it's sad nobody ever says "Yes, it was awful for Emma and for that 14 year old, but I don't get it" it's always about Joseph. We still never hear about the women, and I'm not a femanist and I'm LDS. I don't think these courts feel kind. They feel defensive and frankly not godly, but very human. My ex was part of a church court, as a high counsel member, against a man he was sleeping with! Of course, that never came out at that point, but when my ex came home he told me it was such a "spiritual experience". He was just glad it never came out. Just because they say "We love you and this hurts us" that's just BS.
How can you say they don't love them and it doesn't hurt them?.
Just because they're in a cult doesn't mean they're automatically evil men with no feelings....
I'm only 30 minutes in, they might address this point later, but they are much more concerned about people being offended than the truth. If you're a church claiming to be the only true authority and intention of God, but can't hold truth to a higher priority than your feelings then you lose credibility.
"This isn't a Sam Pinson problem, it is a What's the foundation of the church problem." Bingo.
It's like an abusive spouse justifying beating their spouse. "You want this!"
Yes. I kept thinking the same. The teenage boy forcing his girlfriend on prom night. So gross.
I've listened to this audio at least a dozen times. There are so many befuddling things about this disciplinary council.
If a central tenant of Mormonism is to "Study {things} out in your mind", the men on this disciplinary council fall far short of that spiritual council. It's not surprising though; most members of the church don't study things out - they feel it out.
At 17:40, one of the men introduces a rhetorical question as though it were a profound idea "Is it possible that I can be 100% sure of something and be wrong?" Sam replies cogently and intelligently that it is possible to be sure, yet wrong. The follow-up question at 17:59, "Is it possible that you could be 100% sure you're right about something and it's not accurate?" Sam says, "Sure." The man then responds with an awkward, breathless tone, as if he mined some deep insight. "Okay, I just wanted to say that."
Sincerely?
I get spirituality is esoteric and often serves to reinforce our biases. To the believer, clinging to the unknown under the noble banner of faith and spiritual fortitude is easier than handling hard truths; especially when those truths erode the very foundation of their beliefs. Even still, to leave the mind behind is intellectually reckless and spiritually irresponsible. The men in this interview leave the distinct impression they have their heads in quicksand. Any attempt to educate and inform them of incontrovertible facts, they slip further into the suffocating sands of denial.
If the Church is true and the devil is real, their adversary is wearing Nike's and trains like a champ. Every. Single. Day. He's running laps around the Church and laughing all the way. Oppositely, Mormon leadership is wearing ancient leather flipflops; broken and threadbare, clinging doggedly to an obtuse world view.
If the Church is true, why can't they be as intellectual as they try to be spiritual?
In closing, let me bear my testimony. Yea, I shall even prophesy in the manner of ancient prophets: Yea verily, I say unto you, be thou watchful in the last days, for if the Church doesn't grow up, an increasing number of its members will grow out of it. I say these things in the name of truth and wisdom, Amen.
Michael Walker
Happy
sam clearly wanted to make this an intellectual discussion. he had gained knowledge by reading literature and wanted to challenge the church on what he had found out. nothing wrong with that from an intellectual point of view. but it's a spiritual dead end. but people think that is how you find God. no. it's how you feed your ego. people like this fall into the trap of questioning what they DO KNOW because of what they don't know (and I think the stake president alluded to this in his own words). and then they decide they don't know anything. a lot of people in the mormon church don't have a testimony of it. some of them know it. other's think they have a testimony but it's build on quicksand (the ego).
@@wasatchm according to LDS theology, we're to study things out in our mind and then ask if it's true. Intellect and spirit are an ideal paring - but many people had a burning testimony black skin was a curse from God as taught by Brigham Young - yet, modern theology has completely disavowed that former doctrine. There is so much room for faith - but it is so often replaced by folly.
The quicksand is in not thinking for ourselves.
Tears for me....on so many levels. x
Notice how the Church leaders accused him of wanting to write a book and sell it, profiting off of his experience and saying that is not okay. Yet you can walk into Deseret Book and buy all the books written by Apostles and General authorities and somehow That’s ok for them to profit off the so-called true church,
I know this is a fairly old video but around 1:04ish there’s a mention of a presidents name that I assume has forgotten to be censored
I am not a mormon, but I have been looking at the duplicity of the men questioning Sam is unbelievable. I am blessed that I believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament not the lies of a sinful man, Joseph Smith. I am so sad that Sam and his family were only exposed to the lies of Joseph Smith.
But, these men are unbelievably false witnesses and Sam and his family are well rid of them all.
“Inspired” he says. 😂😂😂 (context 01:39:27) Love this!
Two SAM's Sam Young and this Sam have a spine LOVE IT
I've said this before, in different ways, but if people want to live in a certain way, and believe in something that speaks to them and their chosen lifestyle, then they should. Does there need to be a doctrine that has to be a "truth" for them to follow? I don't know. Maybe one cannot exist without the other. It's a shame that things have to come to this.
Thank you for recording and posting this. I have officially been out a year, a few months ago, I am at the point where I can listen to and respond to some things withing getting triggered and extremely upset. I had thought that the church was no longer doing a lot of ex-communications, from something I read I think in the General handbook that was put out online by the church around Feb this year. This video and your experience showed otherwise. More proof to me of how the church says one thing yet does the exact opposite or slowly changes the information that most people will not notice.
I could feel the frustrating when he said everything Joseph Smith went through strengthened my faith.
Sam you should have done the prayer asking that the hippocrits be shown the light of the truth...they wouldn't have gotten the irony but it would have been priceless
LOL. :)
Mr. Pinson hoping your family isndoing well. You are very brave. We need more people like you.
As hard as it is coming out of a cult and feeling depleted. Hope and grace and salvation come only thru Christ and not any church. Run away from this cult. Listening to this makes me sick!! So sorry yall had to go thru this.
How many people have been excommunicated because of their Face Book posts?
As the head of the house hold Sam (senior) should have had the right to have all of his family members present whenever he wanted during this what appears to be ridiculous meeting.
Haha, legal counsel is also not allowed to be present.
HEY...HEY...ALL BELONGING TO CHURCHES ARE VOLUNTARY AND YOU DONT HAVE TO BELONG TO ANY CHURCH IF YOU DONT WANT TO. SO IT MAKES NO SENSE WHY YOU WOULD STAY THERE AND WAIT FOR LEADERSHIP TO QUESTION YOU. HE DID SAY HE DOES NOT BELIEVE IN GOD...WHY DID HE STAY THERE. SEEMS LIKE HE WAS BUILDING UP AN AGENDA. I MET PEOPLE WHO DONT BELIEVE AND CONTINUE TO HAVE FRIENDSHIP WITH THEM. I REALLY DONT LIKE PEOPLE TELLING ME MY CHURCH IS WRONG...LET ME DECIDE...NOT ANYONE. HE IS ON FACEBOOK TO GET CONFIRMATION FOR HIMSELF FROM OTHERS TO BE RIGHT.....FOR HIM. YAPPING ON FACEBOOK REALLY SHOWS AGENDA. QUESTIONS ABOUT RELIGION IS PERSONAL AND WHY ASK AND TELL PEOPLE HOW YOU FEEL....NO ONE CARES..WE HAVE PROBLEMS BIGGER THAN THIS. HES UNHAPPY AND UNSURE. YEAH. BEEN THERE. I QUIETLY DEALT WITH IT...AM HAPPY NOW. SO GLAD I DIDNT WAVE FLAGS. WHAT FOR.
@@pronerfer3636 People who are being defrauded don't know what's happening. People that realize they are being defrauded extract themselves from the situation. Naturally, the people perpetuating the fraud want them to go away in silence. What's the moral and kind thing to do here? Allow others to continue to be defrauded? Or provide them with the information they need to make an informed decision? My Facebook activity is to warn others about the fraud and provide them with the opportunity to make an informed decision. If they have all the information and still want to be part of the fraud, that is fine.
Rather than berating apostates and critics, the church should really honor and thank us. Just imagine what the LDS church would look like if there were no critics and every apostate remained silent. Polygamy never would have been abandoned. The racist doctrines never would have been disavowed. Sexism in the church never would have been reduced. In that world, the current LDS church would be like a polygamous KKK.
@@pronerfer3636 you fail to acknowledge a couple of things-
That Mormons constantly go on missions to evangelize people in other cultures. Do I even need to explain the problem with this Christian imperialism?
Another problem is the lack of informed consent. Children who are brought up and raised in this church in many cases don’t have any outside influences and aren’t given all the facts in which to draw their own conclusions. If you can’t ask questions regarding historical facts that the church themselves publish- if you can’t do that without social repercussions in that community, is it really a good environment to develop a healthy relationship with their religion? And before you respond about kids being raised in other religions-LDS is an intense, high demand religion in which many people experience intense shame for doing and thinking anything that can be interpreted as controversial to the organization. If the church is so strong in its truth, why is the culture of suppression so very prominent? You can’t ask people to question the truth of their own faith (as non-LDS) then use deflection and shame when those same investigative questions are asked about church history and doctrine.
If the LDS didn’t operate so suspiciously, it wouldn’t be so easy to ruffle their feathers. Personally, I believe mankind has a pretty consistent track record of individuals exploiting people for power and wealth. Snake oil salesmen have had devotees just as convinced and faithful as you. Cults (not an accusation) aren’t successful because their tactics are obvious and easy to resist. It’s not like cults happen because of gullible people. Like it or not, some of the most intelligent people have been taken in by charismatic lies. Lies that disguise themselves to be the sweet nectar of salvation. When you’re in it, you don’t have to tools to recognize when you’re being manipulated. That’s why someone like Sam speaks on it. That’s why he can’t just ignore the church and walk away. It’s like he learned his parent never loved him. Imagine learning that the close relationship he thought they had was one sided; that he cared for them deeply but for his parent it was more or less an act. They used deceit and manipulation to construct this idea that he had a happy childhood and with love and devotion. Then to top it off he found out that his parent was also doing it to his other small siblings. I can’t imagine if you were in his shoes, you’d be okay with just leaving quietly.
IF Jesus Christ came to the American continent....IF the book of mormon is true....well, it's not, plain and simple. They wanted to set that parameter to try to prove their point. It's a moot point.
I wonder if they actually tried to remain friends with Sam or if they shunned him