High speed has NOTHING to do in where in the travel you are. So not "when you are near the end of the travel". The damper only responds to velocity and IS NOT position sensitive. The spring (air or coil), on the other hand, is position sensitive and not speed sensitive.
@@OtterMTBtech I bottomed out my old 160mm coil fork during braking in some steep steep slow steps when it had a too light LSC tune..that was not fun. Same with a shitty Fox Rythm 34 at 140mm. There was like ZERO LSC and minimal rebound on that thing. Pretty much had to run the compression fully closed or else it felt like a pogo stick. BUT - That wasnt what I commented on, was it? You said in the video that High speed is for "when you are near the end of the travel" which just is not true as it doesn't care (or know for that matter) where in the travel you are. Do you have high speed event from full travel? Yes when you land a drop. Can you be far into the travel and still be using the LSC? Yes - fork dive during braking. Not a high speed event but can eat a lot of travel if you dont have enough LSC. Then you can dive into all sorts of setups on progressive/digressive tunes and stuff (where a lot of pro mtbers like digressive tunes for some reason?) Personally I just want the fork and shock to be as stable and predictable as possible which for me means a lot of LSC, rebound on the fast side and then dial in the HSC so it feels like there isnt a "dead spot" or a very abrupt transition between the two circuits. The Mezzer is awesome at this and so is the RXF36. I have hade zero success with Fox 38s and haven't tried the Zebs enough to really say anything about em. I hope Cane Creek release an fatter version of the Helm Coil which is a killer fork but a bit of a noodle at times with small 35mm stanchions. I generally like your channel - so keep it up :)
@@exoghost3596 strange - I was pretty sure I had given a pretty extensive answer to this. Not sure that I wanna type that essay all over again. But all in all. LSC works as a threshold and the the oil must build up a certain pressure (force from input) to overcome to diverted it into the high speed circuit. So low speed will have an effect on high speed compression (I even had a fkn graph showing how it will effect...) LSR wil be working most of the time and you can set it as you wish on all shocks and forks (more or less). The job here is to dissipate energy from the potential stored in the spring when it extends. Same here... LSR = a threshold. If the returning forces are too high it will be diverted into the HSR which is, on most shocks, an internal setting made in assembly. Also - LSR and LSC will have effect on eachother and can feel like the same thing. Firm/stiff or harsh can be words to describe when you have too much of them both. HSC will be where you finetune how the damper will react in high shaft speed situations like a huck to flat or smashing into some fairly large roots or rocks. How I think about all these settings as I like a stable chassis. Work from a closed LSC and a fast LSR (stable = good) and dial in HSR for how you want the high speed events to feel. I aim for predictability and like a it when the LSC and HSC feel the same way and not falling through untill shaft speed is high enough or reaching a high shaft speed and then falling through. Or for that matter HSC being so stiff that I kinda struggle to hold on for a whole day of riding. I wrote the double of this but it was somehow removed (maybe due to the link for the graph)...
Question: 1) I have the 38 grip 2. Do you think buying the grip x or grip x2 damper would be better than tuning the grip 2? 2) save up for a 38 grip x select plus
Just nice to see a proper damper in a mainstream fork after so many years. I’m glad Fox went this route instead of trying to mask their Grip2 mistakes with something like buttercups. Wonder if Grip X/2 feel better than just grabbing a take-off Rhythm or RS base model and throwing the new MRP Lift damper in.
Great video! I have been riding a Zeb 2.1 on my kenevo. I was thinking about getting a 3.1 damper for $359 but now jenson is selling 180mm 27.5 grip 2 fox 38's for $300.....I would love to see your take on the rockshox 3.1 damper zeb. The Fantastic fork comparison review said the Zeb with the 3.1 was a better fork than the 38 gripx2.
Seems most reviewers put Ohlins on 1 if racer, RS if average Joe, DVO if you want performance over convenience for average Joe's, and Manitou if tech savvy. Current gen Fox isn't winning in any of the reviews. Airspring doesn't cut it
I realize now the bike weight basis is really important when choosing forks. Kenevo is rear wheel bias so plush 38 is better. I’m on Rocky now the front wheel has allot of weight so firm air spring Zeb might be better. Have to sell Ohlins to get the Zeb 3.1
@@Fleijah My thoughts exactly. Ohlin actually makes dampers that do what they are supposed to do like hold you up high in the travel with the damper and less by the airspring.
The reference information is from DVO. DVO does damping really good and I truly like their stuff. Their suspension tech support page I found to make this video was literally the best explainer I’ve ever seen. From the page “typically” less shims or bad mv design Last week I took a onyx apart. The Onyx uses a large piston like the 38 but smaller ports and fewer shims. I didn’t wanna make another jab at Sun tour for its horrible MV design with 2 shims
Reducing the bore of the IFP would yield in more pressure with less stroke? Idk maybe it was just for packaging reasons?! Just throwing shit at the wall here 😂
In general I am not against your comparison of products, but keep it to that, and I would suggest not to go into deep dive tech explanations like this and previous ones. Since you come with theories that is actually wrong, it only put you in a bad light. By all means, take the products apart and show, but please take my advice and do not jump into technical theories like you do. If you can tell the public how products ride and functions on the bike it is fine, but trying to explain why it is working like this from a technical view will not work. Categorising products by how it is build and designed is a dead end......An example: You are Saying that a needle on the Grip x take care of the low speed compression is the most simple low speed you have seen? Not sure about that since this is actually the basics in how low speed compression is working? In general it is all about narrowing the space (with a needle) where the oil going through, force the oil going through the shim stack instead. On the other hand, preloading the shim stack is how you adjust high speed compression. So they interact very much since more or less of either will give different low speed and high speed or vice versa.
These are just stupid washers, no value or reasoning in it... All you need is to control oil flow from one side of the piston to the other side, thats it. So some small permanently open port and large port with some sort of "blow-off" valve would be sufficient
Continue the tech talk stay in touch here. facebook.com/groups/1360284884937740
High speed has NOTHING to do in where in the travel you are. So not "when you are near the end of the travel". The damper only responds to velocity and IS NOT position sensitive. The spring (air or coil), on the other hand, is position sensitive and not speed sensitive.
Could you explain the what does lsc do and hsc and lrs compared to hsr
Come on, bro give me a break. When’s the last time you bottomed your fork out and had slow shaft movement
@@OtterMTBtech I bottomed out my old 160mm coil fork during braking in some steep steep slow steps when it had a too light LSC tune..that was not fun. Same with a shitty Fox Rythm 34 at 140mm. There was like ZERO LSC and minimal rebound on that thing. Pretty much had to run the compression fully closed or else it felt like a pogo stick.
BUT - That wasnt what I commented on, was it? You said in the video that High speed is for "when you are near the end of the travel" which just is not true as it doesn't care (or know for that matter) where in the travel you are. Do you have high speed event from full travel? Yes when you land a drop. Can you be far into the travel and still be using the LSC? Yes - fork dive during braking. Not a high speed event but can eat a lot of travel if you dont have enough LSC.
Then you can dive into all sorts of setups on progressive/digressive tunes and stuff (where a lot of pro mtbers like digressive tunes for some reason?)
Personally I just want the fork and shock to be as stable and predictable as possible which for me means a lot of LSC, rebound on the fast side and then dial in the HSC so it feels like there isnt a "dead spot" or a very abrupt transition between the two circuits. The Mezzer is awesome at this and so is the RXF36. I have hade zero success with Fox 38s and haven't tried the Zebs enough to really say anything about em.
I hope Cane Creek release an fatter version of the Helm Coil which is a killer fork but a bit of a noodle at times with small 35mm stanchions.
I generally like your channel - so keep it up :)
@@exoghost3596 strange - I was pretty sure I had given a pretty extensive answer to this. Not sure that I wanna type that essay all over again.
But all in all. LSC works as a threshold and the the oil must build up a certain pressure (force from input) to overcome to diverted it into the high speed circuit. So low speed will have an effect on high speed compression (I even had a fkn graph showing how it will effect...)
LSR wil be working most of the time and you can set it as you wish on all shocks and forks (more or less). The job here is to dissipate energy from the potential stored in the spring when it extends.
Same here... LSR = a threshold. If the returning forces are too high it will be diverted into the HSR which is, on most shocks, an internal setting made in assembly.
Also - LSR and LSC will have effect on eachother and can feel like the same thing. Firm/stiff or harsh can be words to describe when you have too much of them both.
HSC will be where you finetune how the damper will react in high shaft speed situations like a huck to flat or smashing into some fairly large roots or rocks.
How I think about all these settings as I like a stable chassis. Work from a closed LSC and a fast LSR (stable = good) and dial in HSR for how you want the high speed events to feel. I aim for predictability and like a it when the LSC and HSC feel the same way and not falling through untill shaft speed is high enough or reaching a high shaft speed and then falling through. Or for that matter HSC being so stiff that I kinda struggle to hold on for a whole day of riding.
I wrote the double of this but it was somehow removed (maybe due to the link for the graph)...
Maintenence and reliability wise, IFP for the win but for performance, bladder all the way.
Question:
1) I have the 38 grip 2. Do you think buying the grip x or grip x2 damper would be better than tuning the grip 2?
2) save up for a 38 grip x select plus
grip X2! its worth it.
Grip X damper upgrade is the best bang for the buck
Upgrade to DVO 38 sl. You'll never look back.
Isn't one washer a shim and the entire combination of them a shim stack?
Today's video was sponsored by SHIMSTACKS! (Good vid bro thx!)
Just nice to see a proper damper in a mainstream fork after so many years. I’m glad Fox went this route instead of trying to mask their Grip2 mistakes with something like buttercups.
Wonder if Grip X/2 feel better than just grabbing a take-off Rhythm or RS base model and throwing the new MRP Lift damper in.
Bruh onto 2nd band aid charger 3.1
@@iliketoridebikes yeah. Nicely done by Fox to make use of that 10 year old Marzochi damper and market it as new tech 🤣👍
@ Now they have another 10 years of “improving” the damper(marketing downgrades to us) before having to reset again!
Great video! I have been riding a Zeb 2.1 on my kenevo. I was thinking about getting a 3.1 damper for $359 but now jenson is selling 180mm 27.5 grip 2 fox 38's for $300.....I would love to see your take on the rockshox 3.1 damper zeb. The Fantastic fork comparison review said the Zeb with the 3.1 was a better fork than the 38 gripx2.
Seems most reviewers put Ohlins on 1 if racer, RS if average Joe, DVO if you want performance over convenience for average Joe's, and Manitou if tech savvy.
Current gen Fox isn't winning in any of the reviews. Airspring doesn't cut it
I realize now the bike weight basis is really important when choosing forks. Kenevo is rear wheel bias so plush 38 is better. I’m on Rocky now the front wheel has allot of weight so firm air spring Zeb might be better. Have to sell Ohlins to get the Zeb 3.1
@@OtterMTBtech why don't you like the Ohlins for that? Seems the heavy damping would work for that
@@Fleijah My thoughts exactly. Ohlin actually makes dampers that do what they are supposed to do like hold you up high in the travel with the damper and less by the airspring.
Props ftom the get go! Not even started watching!!!
Am I able to put a grip 2 from a 38 in a 36? Know this is very off topic but just wondering
No, I tried it the 36 has smaller threads in the steerer unit
Is this video comparing the Grip X or Grip X2 to the old Grip 2?
No, this is the nerd one
Nerd one?
So is it possible to upgrade the old Fox 38 grip2 to the new gripx2 in the same fork?
Mine its an elite performance 2021
Yes
Rockshox aint bad bro
Again you are on thin Ice here. You say that less shims is not good damping? So you say that DVO is not so good damping wise since it has less shims?
The reference information is from DVO. DVO does damping really good and I truly like their stuff. Their suspension tech support page I found to make this video was literally the best explainer I’ve ever seen.
From the page “typically” less shims or bad mv design
Last week I took a onyx apart. The Onyx uses a large piston like the 38 but smaller ports and fewer shims.
I didn’t wanna make another jab at Sun tour for its horrible MV design with 2 shims
@@OtterMTBtech yeah but since DVO has less shims, like Rock Shocks and previous Grip 2.....does not confirm your theory?
I sent my fork 38 for service at fox factory, they allow me to upgrate for an x2 charger and i give it a go, half the price of a new shock.
*x2 damper, charger is rockshox’s damper’s name
@ they called charger at fox service department, would you like to upgrate for a charger x2. That’s what they said
From now on all dampers are chargers 🙌🤣
Reducing the bore of the IFP would yield in more pressure with less stroke? Idk maybe it was just for packaging reasons?! Just throwing shit at the wall here 😂
In general I am not against your comparison of products, but keep it to that, and I would suggest not to go into deep dive tech explanations like this and previous ones. Since you come with theories that is actually wrong, it only put you in a bad light. By all means, take the products apart and show, but please take my advice and do not jump into technical theories like you do. If you can tell the public how products ride and functions on the bike it is fine, but trying to explain why it is working like this from a technical view will not work. Categorising products by how it is build and designed is a dead end......An example: You are Saying that a needle on the Grip x take care of the low speed compression is the most simple low speed you have seen? Not sure about that since this is actually the basics in how low speed compression is working? In general it is all about narrowing the space (with a needle) where the oil going through, force the oil going through the shim stack instead. On the other hand, preloading the shim stack is how you adjust high speed compression. So they interact very much since more or less of either will give different low speed and high speed or vice versa.
Dog you gotta start messy. Everything I explained is referring to the DVO website. And the paragraph I was quoted was on screen
These are just stupid washers, no value or reasoning in it... All you need is to control oil flow from one side of the piston to the other side, thats it. So some small permanently open port and large port with some sort of "blow-off" valve would be sufficient