The Euston applications are all bidding for the same slots in the timetable. It won't be possible for more than one of them to run without a significant change to the timetable, which cant happen before HS2 phase 1 opens.
The Euston to Preston train could be combined with the Glasgow one, just have it be two train sets that separate/join at Preston. They would have to figured out Bolton, Golbourne or both (not familiar enough with that area to know if that’s possible, or they are on separate routes.)
@@joermnyc Adding that many stops, and in particular going via Manchester, would mean at least 5 hours to Glasgow. Existing trains do it in 4h30. (Admittedly some do it in 6, but there are more Lon-Bham and Bham-north passengers, and Virgin are focusing on the London market.)
@@ajs41 check the platform in advance on rtt, if they let you on the platform early then great, otherwise just wait at the bottom of the ramp. i dont really know how it works because ive only ever gotten on a train from euston twice and that was a decent amount of time ago (underground not included)
Lumo expanding from five-car to ten-car trains would be so useful. Every Lumo train I've been on has been absolutely packed, rightfully so given their cheaper fares *and* no First Class for peak capacity. New trains and services are always welcome, and the Grand Union Euston-Stirling service sounds like an epic journey! And the Alliance Rail proposal sounds really exciting too! It'd be great to have more cross-country orientated services, to not just compete with CrossCountry but improve services and connections elsewhere in the country without having to go via London to get anywhere. Connecting North Wales, Northern England and Scotland together would be so useful.
They will also get a percentage of all the “Any Permitted Route” tickets sold over the routes they’ll be operating. For something like London to Edinburgh that’s a lot of money they’ll get for passengers that are travelling on other providers’ services.
Very exciting and well explained Geoff. Another one that may start quite soon is Go-op, who will go through my local area and hopefully start December this year between Swindon and Taunton using Class 153s!
The irony is that when Virgin operated the WC franchise, they pretty much eliminated all the Motherwell stops as they were so focused on a sub 4hr journey. Avanti have reinstated nearly every Motherwell stop, and along with TPE adding Motherwell means an almost hourly service south.
Look forward to seeing and travelling on these services. I'd also say The Jacobite from Fort William to Mallaig falls into this category as an open access service running daily for a large part of the year. The difference being is its a tourist attraction rather than a commuter service.
Very informative video Geoff, I saw that most of the new access operators are due to start in 2025 which is next year already, wow, definitely going to keep an eye out for those being rolled out next year, I'm very excited to see all of these 😀
as someone in buckinghamshire seeing more train connections coming and being planned in and around me is making me happy saves going far down the line to london to go back on yourself just to go north this will save like 40/60 minutes for me each way (and maybe even some money will have to see about that though)
Fantastic video very informative I travelled a lot between Yorkshire and London Kings Cross I always travel with Hull Trains. There started running a bus service from Goole to Howden which connects with the Hull Trains Service
Used to regularly travel between Worksop and Sheffield/Retford and I see problems. Firstly Nunnery Mainline junction is a bottleneck and services into Sheffield were held for ages there. Using the old goods platform (that has track) into a bay platform at Woodhouse (and allowing through ticketing on the 52a bus from Attercliffe, Darnall and Handsworth) might be a better option. Secondly access from Worksop onto the line to Kings Cross is into P2 (the down platform) and would have to cross the busy down fast line upon leaving Retford. There is also the annoying squeal on the sharp approach curve. I didn't mind changing at Retford as this gave me a chance leave the station to visit the nearby convenience store.
These OAO's sound really exciting, however, i am from a part of the country where only one operator runs.....Greater Anglia, along the GEML. I Would love to see an OAO run along the GEML as a Non-London route maybe starting at Colchester and running to birmingham or maybe further into wales as an East to West OAO which would be really cool and incredibly helpful as it would ease capacity from people travelling to london to then get the tube from liverpool st to a different london terminal like euston for example, and would also benifit people travelling to norwich to get on an EMR class 158 towards liverpool lime st. Overall i think something like that needs to happen soon, as a local it would be so handy.
This is a way that ticket prices are brought down. I once saved a large amount of money by going Grand Central to Sunderland and then onwards to Newcastle on the Metro. It was longer but the saving was worth it.
An alternative to the diabolical GWR service running through South Wales? Consider me intrigued. The Cardiff to Edinburgh service sounds interesting too, but I fear that it'll be extremely expensive as it won't have any competition.
To be fair to GWR I've always had good experiences travelling with them between NWP and PAD.. with one exception, the eye watering ticket prices. I've driven to outer London, parked and tubed in last 5-6 years because its just so much cheaper with two of us travelling. £20-30 in fuel vs 2 train tickets at £80-£90 each.. no contest. Looking forward to the competition.
Nostalgia for Virgin trains, as we rode the “Mail route” up to Holyhead for the ferry connection over to Dublin. It was a lovely Pendolino, the crew were excellent and we learned how to properly pronounce the names of the stops in northern Wales. (Just don’t quiz us now, it was 10 years ago! 😂)
WSMR cannot come soon enough. I made extensive use of the Wrexham And Shropshire service back in the day between London and Shrewsbury to visit my parents. Sorely needs a regular direct train again. That did have the plus point of running out of the lovely Maryelebone though, so a shame this one will be out of Euston. Though perhaps that means it'll be busier and actually last.
3:15 I got excited because when they were originally only planning to run to Cardiff Central, they were going to use Class 91/Intercity 225s - the very first time a 91/IC225 would run on the GWML!
I have used Hull Trains for years, they are so good and you get such a personalised service from them. Their first class is best in the country. Geoff have you traveled on them at all?
As a disabled person who relies on trains I wish there was an open access train option available from somewhere in Devon. Hopefully it would bring down the ridiculous prices of trains from Devon to anywhere in the country outside of the county
Fares from Exeter to Waterloo are pretty cheap if you can choose the time you travel. I have done Earlsfield to Exeter for £12, Exeter to Salisbury for £8 e/w. If you have to go GWR/XC then try splitting at Weston Super Mare or Bristol Parkway to get the best deals on advance tickets
I thought the WCML south of Birmingham was full, wasn't this was one of the reasons for building HS2? How are they going to accommodate all those extra services?
Yes, that's why the old Wrexham and Shropshire operated out of Marylebone. I used that service on several occasions but ultimately it was stymied by Virgin Trains' anti-competition rules which didn't all it to stop at Birmingham at all or at Wolverhampton or Telford in one direction or the other.
It's often argued that the WCML is not only full now but will continue to be so in places even with HS2 Phase 1 open, due to the cancellation of Phase 2. These extra operators would gum up the works even more in times of disruption
Simple. They aren't. It's just more traffic on the network. Once HS2 (the bit they're actually building) is done it should help some of the services, but the wider network is still chock full.
I’d prefer Grand Union to operate the Carmarthen service out of Euston instead of Paddington because Euston is the only London terminus where you can get a train to either Scotland or Wales. Kings Cross has Scotland only, Paddington has Wales only, but Euston has both. Anyways, from London Euston to Carmarthen you head via Birmingham New Street and head along via Telford and Wellington to Shrewsbury before heading to Newport and Cardiff and then head on to Carmarthen from that point on. Also, why is it missing out Swansea? Silly question: Couldn’t Grand Union use the new HS2 line when it’s finished? - London Birmingham C. St - London Carmarthen - London Stirling
I hope the WSMR offers faster access to London from Wolverhampton and Walsall. The current route via Birmingham is too slow, taking up a quarter of the journey time, especially if you have to change/wait.
I’m fairly certain that Lumo are planning to go to Glasgow Central as Queen Street is very constrained for capacity and as XC have pretty much abandoned Glasgow there are unused InterCity paths into GLC.
Thanks Geoff for an informative video!" But you fail to ask a crucial question. Is there track capacity (especially on the East Coast Main Line) for all these new services?
I really doubt that there are slots for all of those services out of Euston, I'd guess they're all competing for the same slots and only one may get the approval.
Great work. Most of these I did know about already though, I guys im a huge nerd haha! Open access operators are great, though I doubt the majority of these services will actually start
I'm particularly looking forward to Alliance Rail's Edinburgh to Cardiff service. Living in Sheffield, train fares down to South Wales and up to Edinburgh are extortionate. Competition with CrossCountry and extra capacity is desperately needed. The Sheffield to Kings Cross service will be a nice addition too as I hate St Pancras station with a passion.
As a worksopian, looking forwards to the potential Sheffield to kings cross service too. The northern trains between Worksop and Sheffield take forever as they stop everywhere - including south Yorkshires least used station of Darnall! What should be a 15-20 minute hop between worksop and sheffield takes 40 minutes. Indeed, we used to have express services which were much faster...
@@jameshodgetts7541 Indeed. That's one benefit open access firms can offer in that they serve towns/cities nowadays overlooked by the TOCs. Let's hope ORR gives Hull Trains the green light for this service.
Thanks for the explanation - and I know this benefits passengers in several ways, but to me it sounds like it could potentially make rail more complicated for those who aren't rail enthusiasts. I wonder how that is being addressed.
It’s great to see lots of new connections that can get made in the next few years but I can’t help but notice the amount coming to Euston. Euston is already at its capacity and with many new service and HS2 (maybe) coming surely the station won’t be able to cope
What are your thoughts on the rail system we have in other countries, like the Netherlands, where you can buy a ticket for a destination (or just check in) instead of for a train? We never have to worry about which provider services which station and can change trains freely. I know it isn't good for competition, but I also don't see how competition on rails (which are pretty fixed) really works.
Hello Geoff, great video and very interesting. I thought of a new series you could do maybe something about every British station with just one platform. For example Finstock and Swale. Thank you for reading.
Interesting, however it makes all more complicated for travelers. They all will have their own booking and fairs system. But it is the future of railways. I see Arriva amongst them. Arriva runs branche line train here in the Netherlands, and bus lines. Arriva used to be owned by DB, Deutsche Bahn, German railways, but are about to be sold to an USA financial company... I am not sure whether this deal is completed now, since on the Arriva trains currently running here it still says: "A DB company"...
I'd love to know if these services will run owned or leased units. Iirc, all of the franchise trains are leased, but Lumo's current trains are actually owned by their parent company?
Certainly leased. Small open access operators have little chance at buying rolling stock. Lumo's Class 803 are also leased from a ROSCO (Beacon Rail). They were specifically ordered for Lumo, but still part of Beacon's fleet. Don't expect any changes anytime soon, unfortunately ROSCOs are here to stay and none of the parties have proposed a nationalisation of rolling stock. ROSCOs are mostly owned by banks or big investment groups (JP Morgan in the case of Beacon), and no one can threaten their business.
WSMR could also stop at the new Willenhall and Darlaston stations then Bescot Stadium up to Walsall or they plan to serve Darlaston and Bescot. As a competition to WMR's Birmingham/Walsall to Shrewsbury Via Willenhall service
Cardiff to Scotland cutting via midlands, pennine belt and Newcastle is certainly intereting. maybe able to add a stop in darlington once the station upgrade is done.
@@offical_jamierubberfanSame here living in Gloucester. We need more trains going north rather than having to use Cheltenham as most Cross Country North - South trains won't go to Gloucester. And the Nottingham - Cardiff trains are horrible, and also seem to be the first to be cancelled on the frequent occasions that Cross Country are short of train crew.
As a worksopian, looking forwards to the potential Sheffield to kings cross service too. The northern trains between Worksop and Sheffield take forever as they stop everywhere - including south Yorkshires least used station of Darnall! What should be a 15-20 minute hop between worksop and sheffield takes 40 minutes. Although i'm half betting they'll do something silly like make it a drop off only stop going north so it doesn't pull too many people off of the Northern service - 95% of the people catching that train is between worksop and sheffield, or make it extortionately expensive so you get the Northern train anyway.
@@benjaminwinchester3408 There is already a cheaper alternative offered by West Midlands Trains. Enter London Euston (this is important) in the destination field on BR Fares. CTRL+F and type LNR AND XC ONLY for a quick way of finding them.
Would these still be possible if the railways were nationalised? I'd assume so, I think it would just take the franchises back into public hands, but I'm not sure.
I do like the idea of having more open access franchise that can deliver better train services in the UK. As HS2 Phase 2 to Manchester and Leeds is cancelled. Would be nice to see more rail operators in the UK. You also had Harrogate Trains, London Crosslink, Central Trains and CrossCountry that is still going.
Nice video! I knew about some of the new Open access operators like Grand Union but I didn't realise Virgin trains would be coming back!? Would be interesting to see what fleet they will have now that the pendolinos are with Avanti
@@rugbycentralofficial I doubt they would convert the voyagers to electric or hydrogen. Virgin will probably want the newest - maybe 805s/807s or 810s? but then again a tilting train would be more ideal for virgin if they're wanting to do London to Glasgow services again.
I feel like the hull trains Sheffield to King’s Cross is an odd one but would definitely see them ordering more class 800s and virgin could some voyagers or pendilinos?
I'm actually so excited for these as a brummie trainspotter (Especially Virgin) besides literally all of these run through the West Midlands (if you exclude Hull Trains)
Geoff your video on open access operators there are no paths available on the east coast main line and the west coast main line as they are running at capacity and these operators are not able to even start planning at the moment
I use Grand Central a lot between London and Sunderland. They are good value but there's always the worry the train will be cancelled and their advice will be to get the next Grand Central train, never mind that its in 3 hours and there are only 20 or so unreserved seats to fit a train full of people in!
No, OAOs will not become part of GBR, unless by private agreement. Only Train Operating Companies currently operating under concessions (former franchises) are subject to GBR.
@@damianc.0.681 I suppose prior to Covid when they stopped at Ashford and Ebbsfleet they offered competition. Now, I think you have to class them as open access as the the UK govt sold its stake in 2015 and are owned by SNCF, effectively not the government of the UK (but French) if that makes sense.
There was also the very close introduction of Grand Central running open access service between London Euston and Blackpool North, however the Pandemic stopped that from happening 😔
It would be good if someone could run Huddersfield to london (via Stalybridge?) or another train from Crewe northward up the WCML (only one per hour Crewe- Warrington at present). What about Cardiff- Glasgow via Shrewsbury?
Because there’s limited slots available in and out of each station, the new companies have to agree a contract to purchase access to the railway. Services would then start with a timetable rejig when the rolling stock is approved, crews trained etc. Because they’re completely commercial outfits they take the risk on to determine if the route will be profitable for them.
the scotish station on the virgin services are in the wrong order it should read carlise , locherbie, glasgow, motherwell. mptherwell is east of glasgow. is it possible to get to motherwell from the south as well as the east or west.
could do with a service to connect newcastle with Manchester/Stockport I can't get to events in newcastle. quicker to get to london than newcastle, travelling at inconvenient times and changing lots
Not too soon. There is a shocking lack of choice. I live in Formby and it’s either Avanti or Avanti to get direct or Euston. A few years ago I could have gone in LNW, but life’s too short! It always surprised me why there wasn’t a main franchise and a slightly lesser one to give competition in main routes. It’s going to be interesting where Virgin fit into Lime St with Avanti proposing a second service an hour. But, I’d give them a go, for nostalgia sake more than anything!
Indeed a very interesting video. Having spoke to a few Lumo drivers, they are planning on adding another service (I think originally 5S95 back to Craigentinny depot), another service operating back to Kings Cross. But if they want to operate more services, they would need more rolling stock
They are trying compete with flying to London. Newcastle airport is approximately half way between Newcastle and Morpeth. Given that they run non-stop from Newcastle the time difference to flying isn't much.
my understanding is that Labour are keeping options open for open access- I'm more worried that the powers that be are trying to get more paths out of existing infrastructure than is safely achievable (especially on the WCML)
Labour mainly are to renationalise the main franchise operators (Avanti etc). They may just leave the OAOs alone, like in Italy where a private operator competes with the state-owned one.
@@paultidd9332 yes that's the point lol. people who think nationalised railways are going to solve everything, or anything, should get out a history book, then after that ask themselves 'why would a monopoly provider, particularly if its the body with monopoly of violence be doing things for me/lowering prices?
@@Redwitheran to be fair, italy has to comply with the eu railway directives. which among other things mandate that the railways be operated along free market principles and that there be some open access provision
Got this in Spain. The rail fares on certain routes have been reduced. However the "open rail" services are not at the moment expanding to other routes thus making some services expensive. In the end will this create a tiered system. These companies will certainly not be providing routes which are needed but not very profitable. Who owns the train companies?
Open access makes the railway incredibly complicated for its operation and for passengers, and this will likely *reduce* capacity rather than increase it on our already congested railway network. Gareth Dennis has written excellently about this. We don't need one train a day to East Armpit that might be two hours late, we need a fast, frequent, reliable and simple railway. Also, the idea that competition in railways provides a "benefit to passengers" should be seriously challenged. Transportation is a natural monopoly where competition doesn't really make sense. The fare system in the UK is a disaster, but this isn't the solution.
There are some niche cases where it does, on long distance routes with plenty of capacity. High speed in Spain is one of them, see the HSR Madrid-Barcelona where the introduction of 2 external operators lead to a substantial increase in offer with much lower prices and considerable growth of users and modal shift. A fully built HS2 network could benefit from a similar model. But admittedly this isn't going to work the same way across the board. Madrid-Barcelona is a route with high demand and with capacity, and this is genuine competition. Some of the operators are starting services on other routes now as well, but there will always be undesirable route that won't benefit. What we see on British railways with franchises and now concessions could hardly be considered real competition in most cases.
I've wondered why one of these operators, or LNER for that matter, don't run two joined sets as far as Doncaster, then split them for a separate service to Leeds and to Hull from there. It would mean the same capacity, but only one train between kings cross and Doncaster.
Leeds to London needs a half-hourly 9-car train at the minimum, so splitting those trains wouldn't work. Sure, maybe Hull could be paired up with trains to/from Middlesbrough or Lincoln to form a 5+5 set into London, but that creates problems when there is any delay to one of the services. If a London-bound joiner has to wait at Newark for a late-running Lincoln or Hull portion then it's blocking platform 3 for that whole time, and if in the meantime you've got a down splitter then it's stuck, it would have to be looped at Barnby Lane sidings to get it off the mainline and then wait until the late up train had arrived, joined and gone before coming back out and across the mainline when it is now out of path. Splitting trains isn't too much of a problem, but with splitting almost inevitably comes joining, and that *does* cause issues for reliability.
@@l3v1ckUK There's no capacity on the Doncaster to Leeds line for any more trains - the mix of stoppers and fast trains on the same twin track eats up capacity.
I'm guessing that for most of these services, additional trains from the Hitachi 80x family would be ordered (EDIT: may as well be CAF Civities akin to LNER's recent order) Possibly also used could be 67+Mk4+DVT, 180 or 22x (though I want to express my condolences to the passengers for the latter)
Labour mainly propose to nationalise the franchise operators (Avanti etc). So I guess OAOs may just be left alone to run their own at least for the next 5 years.
Yes. Since moving to Cardiff, I've often wondered why there are absolutely zero trains running between Wales and Scotland even though XC run services in both?
I would love to see the Birmingham to Brighton route operated by Virgin until around 2008 make a come back. But I know BML is running overcapacity as is.
If ... anyone can find a good link for more information for the planned Virgin train services, please post it here! ( thanks )
wait they’re back? exiting!
@@ThimgsGDwell technically yes but they will be running a different name and livery
@@UKTAG2i see, still will be nice to see them back up and running!
Euston - Birmingham - Liverpool - Manchester - Scotland
sounds intresting
The Euston applications are all bidding for the same slots in the timetable. It won't be possible for more than one of them to run without a significant change to the timetable, which cant happen before HS2 phase 1 opens.
The Euston to Preston train could be combined with the Glasgow one, just have it be two train sets that separate/join at Preston. They would have to figured out Bolton, Golbourne or both (not familiar enough with that area to know if that’s possible, or they are on separate routes.)
@@joermnyc Adding that many stops, and in particular going via Manchester, would mean at least 5 hours to Glasgow. Existing trains do it in 4h30.
(Admittedly some do it in 6, but there are more Lon-Bham and Bham-north passengers, and Virgin are focusing on the London market.)
I'm fed up with having about 6 minutes to run to the train at Euston. There must be a better way of organising things.
@@ajs41 check the platform in advance on rtt, if they let you on the platform early then great, otherwise just wait at the bottom of the ramp. i dont really know how it works because ive only ever gotten on a train from euston twice and that was a decent amount of time ago (underground not included)
Nice idea, but they won't last too long
Lumo expanding from five-car to ten-car trains would be so useful. Every Lumo train I've been on has been absolutely packed, rightfully so given their cheaper fares *and* no First Class for peak capacity. New trains and services are always welcome, and the Grand Union Euston-Stirling service sounds like an epic journey! And the Alliance Rail proposal sounds really exciting too! It'd be great to have more cross-country orientated services, to not just compete with CrossCountry but improve services and connections elsewhere in the country without having to go via London to get anywhere. Connecting North Wales, Northern England and Scotland together would be so useful.
Lumo only has a limited number of trains. Needs to enlarge its fleet.
They will also get a percentage of all the “Any Permitted Route” tickets sold over the routes they’ll be operating. For something like London to Edinburgh that’s a lot of money they’ll get for passengers that are travelling on other providers’ services.
Wouldn't that percentages be based on occasional passenger counts?
Very exciting and well explained Geoff. Another one that may start quite soon is Go-op, who will go through my local area and hopefully start December this year between Swindon and Taunton using Class 153s!
😆😆😆😆😆😆😆😆
That virgin one looks good, especially if they cut the journey time between Motherwell and London by moving Motherwell 60 miles south 👀
The irony with the Virgin one is that they actively prevented Open access operators during their time running the West Coast Main Line franchise.
Yes, I think Geoff's map has Lockerbie and Motherwell the wrong way round!
Folding space time is an efficient way to travel and to be honest I'm surprised it's not done more often.
No mate, it's a tourism thing, they're going to move Lockerbie closer to Glasgow - they've got the plane ready to go
The irony is that when Virgin operated the WC franchise, they pretty much eliminated all the Motherwell stops as they were so focused on a sub 4hr journey.
Avanti have reinstated nearly every Motherwell stop, and along with TPE adding Motherwell means an almost hourly service south.
Look forward to seeing and travelling on these services. I'd also say The Jacobite from Fort William to Mallaig falls into this category as an open access service running daily for a large part of the year. The difference being is its a tourist attraction rather than a commuter service.
Very informative video Geoff, I saw that most of the new access operators are due to start in 2025 which is next year already, wow, definitely going to keep an eye out for those being rolled out next year, I'm very excited to see all of these 😀
as someone in buckinghamshire seeing more train connections coming and being planned in and around me is making me happy saves
going far down the line to london to go back on yourself just to go north this will save like 40/60 minutes for me each way
(and maybe even some money will have to see about that though)
Great video Geoff, thanks for sharing the information. I’m definitely going to be very exited about the new Cardiff to Edinburgh line
Fantastic video very informative I travelled a lot between Yorkshire and London Kings Cross I always travel with Hull Trains. There started running a bus service from Goole to Howden which connects with the Hull Trains Service
Used to regularly travel between Worksop and Sheffield/Retford and I see problems. Firstly Nunnery Mainline junction is a bottleneck and services into Sheffield were held for ages there. Using the old goods platform (that has track) into a bay platform at Woodhouse (and allowing through ticketing on the 52a bus from Attercliffe, Darnall and Handsworth) might be a better option. Secondly access from Worksop onto the line to Kings Cross is into P2 (the down platform) and would have to cross the busy down fast line upon leaving Retford. There is also the annoying squeal on the sharp approach curve. I didn't mind changing at Retford as this gave me a chance leave the station to visit the nearby convenience store.
That's strange considering Goole and Howden are nearly joined together anyway
There was a service that runs in to Howden Town but northing going to Howden station until the Hopper started running
The WSMR route would mean the return of passenger trains to the sutton park line, which has been freight only for many years.
These OAO's sound really exciting, however, i am from a part of the country where only one operator runs.....Greater Anglia, along the GEML. I Would love to see an OAO run along the GEML as a Non-London route maybe starting at Colchester and running to birmingham or maybe further into wales as an East to West OAO which would be really cool and incredibly helpful as it would ease capacity from people travelling to london to then get the tube from liverpool st to a different london terminal like euston for example, and would also benifit people travelling to norwich to get on an EMR class 158 towards liverpool lime st. Overall i think something like that needs to happen soon, as a local it would be so handy.
Grand Union, fact it's stopping at my station Larbert and even Stirling is super interesting and exciting - nice to see more options.
Great video! Do you know why there are no proposed on the midland mainline? EMR’s monopoly means their prices are absolutely eye watering!
This is a way that ticket prices are brought down. I once saved a large amount of money by going Grand Central to Sunderland and then onwards to Newcastle on the Metro. It was longer but the saving was worth it.
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An alternative to the diabolical GWR service running through South Wales? Consider me intrigued.
The Cardiff to Edinburgh service sounds interesting too, but I fear that it'll be extremely expensive as it won't have any competition.
The alternative via Bristol Parkway to Paddington would be interesting. If it's less than £90 off peak return, that'll be groundbreaking.
The Cardiff to Edinburgh will compete with GWR and Crosscountry I believe.
To be fair to GWR I've always had good experiences travelling with them between NWP and PAD.. with one exception, the eye watering ticket prices. I've driven to outer London, parked and tubed in last 5-6 years because its just so much cheaper with two of us travelling. £20-30 in fuel vs 2 train tickets at £80-£90 each.. no contest. Looking forward to the competition.
Nostalgia for Virgin trains, as we rode the “Mail route” up to Holyhead for the ferry connection over to Dublin. It was a lovely Pendolino, the crew were excellent and we learned how to properly pronounce the names of the stops in northern Wales. (Just don’t quiz us now, it was 10 years ago! 😂)
WSMR cannot come soon enough. I made extensive use of the Wrexham And Shropshire service back in the day between London and Shrewsbury to visit my parents. Sorely needs a regular direct train again. That did have the plus point of running out of the lovely Maryelebone though, so a shame this one will be out of Euston. Though perhaps that means it'll be busier and actually last.
3:15 I got excited because when they were originally only planning to run to Cardiff Central, they were going to use Class 91/Intercity 225s - the very first time a 91/IC225 would run on the GWML!
I have used Hull Trains for years, they are so good and you get such a personalised service from them. Their first class is best in the country. Geoff have you traveled on them at all?
As a disabled person who relies on trains I wish there was an open access train option available from somewhere in Devon. Hopefully it would bring down the ridiculous prices of trains from Devon to anywhere in the country outside of the county
Fares from Exeter to Waterloo are pretty cheap if you can choose the time you travel. I have done Earlsfield to Exeter for £12, Exeter to Salisbury for £8 e/w. If you have to go GWR/XC then try splitting at Weston Super Mare or Bristol Parkway to get the best deals on advance tickets
I thought the WCML south of Birmingham was full, wasn't this was one of the reasons for building HS2? How are they going to accommodate all those extra services?
My thoughts exactly.
Yes, that's why the old Wrexham and Shropshire operated out of Marylebone. I used that service on several occasions but ultimately it was stymied by Virgin Trains' anti-competition rules which didn't all it to stop at Birmingham at all or at Wolverhampton or Telford in one direction or the other.
It's often argued that the WCML is not only full now but will continue to be so in places even with HS2 Phase 1 open, due to the cancellation of Phase 2. These extra operators would gum up the works even more in times of disruption
Not sure about Virgin trains but for WSMR it will replace the Old Avanti London- Shrewsbury service.
Simple. They aren't. It's just more traffic on the network. Once HS2 (the bit they're actually building) is done it should help some of the services, but the wider network is still chock full.
Great video Geoff, we could do with another couple of operators on the Cumbrian coast line, it might make Northern get their act together.
Alliance Rail not calling at Cheltenham Spa or Worcestershire Parkway (2 busy stations)?
as a west coaster i cant wait for avanti to have real competition
And with the aim of going into Man Vic which is so much more convenient for the businesses I am usually visiting on that side of the city
I'd love to see some acknowledgement of Go-Op too, they just got approved by the ORR to run lines between Swindon and Taunton next year.
I’d prefer Grand Union to operate the Carmarthen service out of Euston instead of Paddington because Euston is the only London terminus where you can get a train to either Scotland or Wales. Kings Cross has Scotland only, Paddington has Wales only, but Euston has both.
Anyways, from London Euston to Carmarthen you head via Birmingham New Street and head along via Telford and Wellington to Shrewsbury before heading to Newport and Cardiff and then head on to Carmarthen from that point on. Also, why is it missing out Swansea?
Silly question: Couldn’t Grand Union use the new HS2 line when it’s finished?
- London Birmingham C. St
- London Carmarthen
- London Stirling
Now that would be errr…a ‘grand’ idea
Terrible pun, I know 🤦♂️🤷♂️😂
Or it could use the north London line/Acton yard.
thanks for the breakdown, Geoff, very helpful :)
I hope the WSMR offers faster access to London from Wolverhampton and Walsall. The current route via Birmingham is too slow, taking up a quarter of the journey time, especially if you have to change/wait.
I’m fairly certain that Lumo are planning to go to Glasgow Central as Queen Street is very constrained for capacity and as XC have pretty much abandoned Glasgow there are unused InterCity paths into GLC.
I think Motherwell and Lockerbie are the wrong way round on the Virgin graphic? Great Video as always.
Thanks Geoff for an informative video!" But you fail to ask a crucial question. Is there track capacity (especially on the East Coast Main Line) for all these new services?
No, in a word. The Tories are salting the earth for Labour by creating massive headaches and future capacity problems here.
These are mostly proposals. Not all of them will be approved
I really doubt that there are slots for all of those services out of Euston, I'd guess they're all competing for the same slots and only one may get the approval.
@@f.g.9466 Thanks! This point about 'slots' out of Euston is clearly very important, and Geoff should have mentioned it.
@@f.g.9466 There might be 2 or 3 slots, but certainly not enough for all the competing bids
Great work. Most of these I did know about already though, I guys im a huge nerd haha!
Open access operators are great, though I doubt the majority of these services will actually start
Hull Trains terminating at Beverley is the start of a possible extension up to Bridlington and eventually Scarborough.
I'm particularly looking forward to Alliance Rail's Edinburgh to Cardiff service. Living in Sheffield, train fares down to South Wales and up to Edinburgh are extortionate. Competition with CrossCountry and extra capacity is desperately needed.
The Sheffield to Kings Cross service will be a nice addition too as I hate St Pancras station with a passion.
Indeed. EMR needs some competition.
Pretty sure HT's new Sheffield service will be faster than EMR's current one, albeit much less frequent
As a worksopian, looking forwards to the potential Sheffield to kings cross service too. The northern trains between Worksop and Sheffield take forever as they stop everywhere - including south Yorkshires least used station of Darnall! What should be a 15-20 minute hop between worksop and sheffield takes 40 minutes. Indeed, we used to have express services which were much faster...
@@jameshodgetts7541 Indeed. That's one benefit open access firms can offer in that they serve towns/cities nowadays overlooked by the TOCs. Let's hope ORR gives Hull Trains the green light for this service.
@@jameshodgetts7541 WHY NOT WSOP RETFORD THEN LNER TO KINGS X
Thanks for the explanation - and I know this benefits passengers in several ways, but to me it sounds like it could potentially make rail more complicated for those who aren't rail enthusiasts. I wonder how that is being addressed.
It’s great to see lots of new connections that can get made in the next few years but I can’t help but notice the amount coming to Euston. Euston is already at its capacity and with many new service and HS2 (maybe) coming surely the station won’t be able to cope
The Lumo one im sure it was Glasgow Central Not Queenstreet. It'll probably get the Lner Paths as Lner are stopping from December
What are your thoughts on the rail system we have in other countries, like the Netherlands, where you can buy a ticket for a destination (or just check in) instead of for a train? We never have to worry about which provider services which station and can change trains freely. I know it isn't good for competition, but I also don't see how competition on rails (which are pretty fixed) really works.
Hello Geoff, great video and very interesting.
I thought of a new series you could do maybe something about every British station with just one platform. For example Finstock and Swale.
Thank you for reading.
The important question, not covered, is ticketing. How it works, what it costs etc
Interesting, however it makes all more complicated for travelers. They all will have their own booking and fairs system. But it is the future of railways. I see Arriva amongst them. Arriva runs branche line train here in the Netherlands, and bus lines. Arriva used to be owned by DB, Deutsche Bahn, German railways, but are about to be sold to an USA financial company... I am not sure whether this deal is completed now, since on the Arriva trains currently running here it still says: "A DB company"...
I'd love to know if these services will run owned or leased units. Iirc, all of the franchise trains are leased, but Lumo's current trains are actually owned by their parent company?
Certainly leased. Small open access operators have little chance at buying rolling stock.
Lumo's Class 803 are also leased from a ROSCO (Beacon Rail). They were specifically ordered for Lumo, but still part of Beacon's fleet.
Don't expect any changes anytime soon, unfortunately ROSCOs are here to stay and none of the parties have proposed a nationalisation of rolling stock. ROSCOs are mostly owned by banks or big investment groups (JP Morgan in the case of Beacon), and no one can threaten their business.
WSMR could also stop at the new Willenhall and Darlaston stations then Bescot Stadium up to Walsall or they plan to serve Darlaston and Bescot. As a competition to WMR's Birmingham/Walsall to Shrewsbury Via Willenhall service
Am all for direct service ftom Edinburgh to Wales
This will be nice upgrade to overcrowded, current class 17x 2/3 cars trains runs from Nottingham/Derby to Cardiff.
There is one a day cross country service
As someone from Wales, maybe getting to Birmingham won't just be on absolutely rammed 170s anymore so I'm for it
Cardiff to Scotland cutting via midlands, pennine belt and Newcastle is certainly intereting.
maybe able to add a stop in darlington once the station upgrade is done.
@@offical_jamierubberfanSame here living in Gloucester. We need more trains going north rather than having to use Cheltenham as most Cross Country North - South trains won't go to Gloucester. And the Nottingham - Cardiff trains are horrible, and also seem to be the first to be cancelled on the frequent occasions that Cross Country are short of train crew.
Thank you for sharing the video Geoff that is very interesting information. 💖
Stevange could be a French village, or a fencing term.
Or an 80s electro pop artist 😉
Well, maybe a Belgian or Luxembourgish village...😅
At least a Luxembougish village
Or a town in West Norway (Stevanger)
Famous for being the birthplace of Lewis Hamilton, although whether he’ll be driving the trains is an open question
I’m excited for Hull Trains to Worksop linking another Nottinghamshire town with the capital.
and to offer hopefully a cheaper alternative to the ridiculously priced EMR services to Sheffield
As a worksopian, looking forwards to the potential Sheffield to kings cross service too. The northern trains between Worksop and Sheffield take forever as they stop everywhere - including south Yorkshires least used station of Darnall! What should be a 15-20 minute hop between worksop and sheffield takes 40 minutes.
Although i'm half betting they'll do something silly like make it a drop off only stop going north so it doesn't pull too many people off of the Northern service - 95% of the people catching that train is between worksop and sheffield, or make it extortionately expensive so you get the Northern train anyway.
@@benjaminwinchester3408 There is already a cheaper alternative offered by West Midlands Trains. Enter London Euston (this is important) in the destination field on BR Fares. CTRL+F and type LNR AND XC ONLY for a quick way of finding them.
What trains will Grand Union use & what trains will Wrexham Shropshire Midlands Railway use?
Would these still be possible if the railways were nationalised? I'd assume so, I think it would just take the franchises back into public hands, but I'm not sure.
Are open access operators the same as normal toc’s for passengers? As in can just jump any off peak with an anytime day ticket?
I do like the idea of having more open access franchise that can deliver better train services in the UK. As HS2 Phase 2 to Manchester and Leeds is cancelled. Would be nice to see more rail operators in the UK. You also had Harrogate Trains, London Crosslink, Central Trains and CrossCountry that is still going.
I'd be all for the Sheffield-LKX Services
Thank you, great bit of information
Woooo Hull Trains getting some recognition!
Very informative Geoff.
Nice video! I knew about some of the new Open access operators like Grand Union but I didn't realise Virgin trains would be coming back!? Would be interesting to see what fleet they will have now that the pendolinos are with Avanti
Not all AWC voyagers are going to XC, there could be a possibility of a conversion to electric/hydrogen for Virgin there I feel...
@@rugbycentralofficial I doubt they would convert the voyagers to electric or hydrogen. Virgin will probably want the newest - maybe 805s/807s or 810s? but then again a tilting train would be more ideal for virgin if they're wanting to do London to Glasgow services again.
I feel like the hull trains Sheffield to King’s Cross is an odd one but would definitely see them ordering more class 800s and virgin could some voyagers or pendilinos?
Or maybe hull trains would take up the emr class 222?
I'm actually so excited for these as a brummie trainspotter (Especially Virgin) besides literally all of these run through the West Midlands (if you exclude Hull Trains)
Geoff, re the possible new Virgin route from Glasgow, shouldn't Motherwell come first out of Glasgow then followed by Lockerbie?
Geoff your video on open access operators there are no paths available on the east coast main line and the west coast main line as they are running at capacity and these operators are not able to even start planning at the moment
Fantastic video Geoff! Very informative 😀
I use Grand Central a lot between London and Sunderland. They are good value but there's always the worry the train will be cancelled and their advice will be to get the next Grand Central train, never mind that its in 3 hours and there are only 20 or so unreserved seats to fit a train full of people in!
Euston's really busy already how will it cope the the 4 new operators?
Would the Open Access operators be folded into Great British Railways / nationalisation or keep going ? I’m hearing mixed things.
No! only the franchises will be folded
No, OAOs will not become part of GBR, unless by private agreement. Only Train Operating Companies currently operating under concessions (former franchises) are subject to GBR.
Lumo's going to go to Glasgow Queen Street instead of Central?
Aren’t Eurostar and Heathrow Express technically Open access operators too?
Technically yes and technically no but lets say yes
Well technically no Eurostar as Eurostar doesn’t call at anywhere that the SE javelins do. but Heathrow express maybe
@@damianc.0.681 I suppose prior to Covid when they stopped at Ashford and Ebbsfleet they offered competition. Now, I think you have to class them as open access as the the UK govt sold its stake in 2015 and are owned by SNCF, effectively not the government of the UK (but French) if that makes sense.
@@jfenemer yeah true.
That is what I thought as well.
Is Huddersfield now the largest town in England without a dirdct service to London?
There was also the very close introduction of Grand Central running open access service between London Euston and Blackpool North, however the Pandemic stopped that from happening 😔
It would be good if someone could run Huddersfield to london (via Stalybridge?) or another train from Crewe northward up the WCML (only one per hour Crewe- Warrington at present). What about Cardiff- Glasgow via Shrewsbury?
Hey Geoff,a question. How are Grand Union going to run out of Paddington if only GWR, Heathrow Express and Elizabeth Line trains go there?
It’s a new operator…
Because there’s limited slots available in and out of each station, the new companies have to agree a contract to purchase access to the railway. Services would then start with a timetable rejig when the rolling stock is approved, crews trained etc.
Because they’re completely commercial outfits they take the risk on to determine if the route will be profitable for them.
@@Damien_N thanks
the scotish station on the virgin services are in the wrong order it should read carlise , locherbie, glasgow, motherwell. mptherwell is east of glasgow. is it possible to get to motherwell from the south as well as the east or west.
Mistakes are easy to make... like your spellings of Lockerbie and Motherwell 😀
could do with a service to connect newcastle with Manchester/Stockport
I can't get to events in newcastle.
quicker to get to london than newcastle, travelling at inconvenient times and changing lots
Not too soon. There is a shocking lack of choice. I live in Formby and it’s either Avanti or Avanti to get direct or Euston.
A few years ago I could have gone in LNW, but life’s too short!
It always surprised me why there wasn’t a main franchise and a slightly lesser one to give competition in main routes.
It’s going to be interesting where Virgin fit into Lime St with Avanti proposing a second service an hour. But, I’d give them a go, for nostalgia sake more than anything!
We need some circle lines. Everything at the moments seems to be North and South.
Surely the Virgin train would go to Lokerbie before Motherwell? Lockerbie is the south of Scotland, Motherwell is just outside Glasgow.
Indeed a very interesting video. Having spoke to a few Lumo drivers, they are planning on adding another service (I think originally 5S95 back to Craigentinny depot), another service operating back to Kings Cross. But if they want to operate more services, they would need more rolling stock
Glasgow queen st I heard
Why do Lumo stop at Morpeth? Is there really enough passenger traffic at this stop, Surely there would be more passengers at either Doncaster or York
they are not allowed to stop and compete directly with the franchise, so use some different stations
They are trying compete with flying to London. Newcastle airport is approximately half way between Newcastle and Morpeth. Given that they run non-stop from Newcastle the time difference to flying isn't much.
Interesting - my question is, how will Labour’s renationalisation plans affect this? Will it still be possible to have these commercials projects?
my understanding is that Labour are keeping options open for open access- I'm more worried that the powers that be are trying to get more paths out of existing infrastructure than is safely achievable (especially on the WCML)
This makes the point on how a renationalised railways doesn’t bring any benefits and removes pricing competition between companies and quality.
Labour mainly are to renationalise the main franchise operators (Avanti etc). They may just leave the OAOs alone, like in Italy where a private operator competes with the state-owned one.
@@paultidd9332 yes that's the point lol. people who think nationalised railways are going to solve everything, or anything, should get out a history book, then after that ask themselves 'why would a monopoly provider, particularly if its the body with monopoly of violence be doing things for me/lowering prices?
@@Redwitheran to be fair, italy has to comply with the eu railway directives. which among other things mandate that the railways be operated along free market principles and that there be some open access provision
These sound excellent to me. But… is there capacity? Especially up the WCML?
Got this in Spain. The rail fares on certain routes have been reduced. However the "open rail" services are not at the moment expanding to other routes thus making some services expensive. In the end will this create a tiered system. These companies will certainly not be providing routes which are needed but not very profitable.
Who owns the train companies?
Great to see Avanti getting the Virgin competition it deserves. Other new operators options look excellent too.
Open access makes the railway incredibly complicated for its operation and for passengers, and this will likely *reduce* capacity rather than increase it on our already congested railway network. Gareth Dennis has written excellently about this. We don't need one train a day to East Armpit that might be two hours late, we need a fast, frequent, reliable and simple railway.
Also, the idea that competition in railways provides a "benefit to passengers" should be seriously challenged. Transportation is a natural monopoly where competition doesn't really make sense. The fare system in the UK is a disaster, but this isn't the solution.
There are some niche cases where it does, on long distance routes with plenty of capacity. High speed in Spain is one of them, see the HSR Madrid-Barcelona where the introduction of 2 external operators lead to a substantial increase in offer with much lower prices and considerable growth of users and modal shift. A fully built HS2 network could benefit from a similar model.
But admittedly this isn't going to work the same way across the board. Madrid-Barcelona is a route with high demand and with capacity, and this is genuine competition. Some of the operators are starting services on other routes now as well, but there will always be undesirable route that won't benefit. What we see on British railways with franchises and now concessions could hardly be considered real competition in most cases.
I've wondered why one of these operators, or LNER for that matter, don't run two joined sets as far as Doncaster, then split them for a separate service to Leeds and to Hull from there. It would mean the same capacity, but only one train between kings cross and Doncaster.
Leeds to London needs a half-hourly 9-car train at the minimum, so splitting those trains wouldn't work.
Sure, maybe Hull could be paired up with trains to/from Middlesbrough or Lincoln to form a 5+5 set into London, but that creates problems when there is any delay to one of the services. If a London-bound joiner has to wait at Newark for a late-running Lincoln or Hull portion then it's blocking platform 3 for that whole time, and if in the meantime you've got a down splitter then it's stuck, it would have to be looped at Barnby Lane sidings to get it off the mainline and then wait until the late up train had arrived, joined and gone before coming back out and across the mainline when it is now out of path. Splitting trains isn't too much of a problem, but with splitting almost inevitably comes joining, and that *does* cause issues for reliability.
I was thinking it could add extra capacity going to Leeds on trains that are currently just going to Hull.
@@l3v1ckUK There's no capacity on the Doncaster to Leeds line for any more trains - the mix of stoppers and fast trains on the same twin track eats up capacity.
Ah. I didn't know that.
Thanks Geoff 👍
How will this be impacted by the potential renationalisation / Great British Railways? Not sure how it all works!
I'm guessing that for most of these services, additional trains from the Hitachi 80x family would be ordered
(EDIT: may as well be CAF Civities akin to LNER's recent order)
Possibly also used could be 67+Mk4+DVT, 180 or 22x (though I want to express my condolences to the passengers for the latter)
I wish there would be more competition against Great Western! I'll keep my fingers crossed for a Gloucester to London competitor at some point.
very informative, didnt know about a couple of them!
How does this fit in with the labour proposals to bring ownership back to the state?
Will be interesting to see if open access operators will still be a thing under Labour
Hmm. How is this going to work in the upcoming renationalised railways?
Labour mainly propose to nationalise the franchise operators (Avanti etc). So I guess OAOs may just be left alone to run their own at least for the next 5 years.
A direct Cardiff to Edinburgh service would be interesting to travel on
Yes. Since moving to Cardiff, I've often wondered why there are absolutely zero trains running between Wales and Scotland even though XC run services in both?
cardiff-edinburgh has been done with a portion to glasgow splitting at carstairs
Aren’t LNER looking at running a line from londons King’s Cross to Cleethorpes
So Virgin have suddenly found that there's spare line capacity to run to Birmingham and Manchester (already served, what is it, three times an hour)?
I would love to see the Birmingham to Brighton route operated by Virgin until around 2008 make a come back. But I know BML is running overcapacity as is.
Wonder how it'll work with labours plan to renationalise the network
Very informative. Except Grand Central don't stop at Peterborough on their Sunderland services, only non-stop from York to the Cross.
yeah also hartlepool has it's old southbound platform back.
One train per day per direction does (not Sundays) though this was only started this year.
Nice explainer, Geoff