i wish i were smart enough to have learned more of modernism and post-modernism coming into this podcast. I'll have to listen a few times to pick up more fully what's being said. Thank you.
3:04 Sponsored by The Orthodox Studies Institute (OSI) at St Constantine College. November 12th. 4:17 101st Episode. *Modernism* 4:42 intro. 6:16 Quick Review of what we talked about in Episode 100. 8:06 Urbanization. 🏙️ *Other Groups that have Christian Elements* 10:22 Ex. Gnosticism, Neo-Platonism. 11:24 Redeemer Figure. 12:30 Scripture, Authority, Viewpoint, Way of Life. 13:37 Artificial faith. 14:19 Compared to False Christianity, ex. Arianism. 15:12 Treated Canonically Different. *Relationship between Christianity and Modernism* 15:48 ☦️ and Modernism. 16:58 Cultural Movements. Ideologies are motivating spirits. *Buzzwords* 19:03 Some people use Modernism as a buzzword/slur for whatever a person dislikes. 20:54 “Dialectic.” 22:46 Buzzwords. *What is Modernism?* 23:06 Intro 23:34 1. Emphasis on The Individual. Automos. Cannot be divided. 1. 24:19 Individual and Person. 25:03 “Find Myself.” Rather than seeing ourselves from our relationships. 26:22 A kind of Egalitarianism. 27:14 Declaration of Independence. 📜 no one is entirely equal in creation. All inequalities 28:55 Historicized differences. 29:32 Pagan Idea 💡 “The Elite are appointed by the gods.” 30:40 We have different gifts and different callings ☦️✅ 32:02 All opinions are of equal value. Entitled to your opinion. 💬 33:02 The Pursuit of Enjoyment. 🤩 Leisure. 🏭 33:48 Theater 🎭 From Athens to Pop Entertainment 💰 34:34 William Shakespeare was popular entertainment. *Theories of Development* 35:35 Historical Process, how did we arrive where we are? 36:27 Progress. The March towards things getting better. Ex. Karl Marx. 38:04 “You’re not on The Right Side of History.” “It’s [current year].” 39:18 Arrogance and Snobbery. “We are the pinnacle of human achievement.” 40:33 Broad sketch ✍🏼 *Modernism is a foreign element to Christianity* 41:39 44:41 45:04 Reconstructing. 46:04 Egalitarianism. 47:00 Positivist. 47:45 Traditionalism. 49:37 Liberte! 50:07 Modernist Christianity. ✝️ 51:46 “Most Scholars agree.” 53:21 Modern Construction. 54:30 Prayers for the microphone 🎤 56:06 The Novel 📖 *Fundamentalists, 19th Century America* ✝️ 57:46 Fundamentalists vs Modernists. 59:09 Ken Ham. Caller 📞 Hannah 1:06:00 Angels and Demons do not have Souls, because Soul is The Life of The Human Body, (or an Animal Soul for an Animal Body) Caller 📞Gregory 1:08:45
To be fair to the evangelical speaking on penal substitution, I think we could say (perhaps following Timothy Patitsas' Ethics of Beauty, in which he argues for a "beauty-first" approach rather than "truth-first") that the pastor, although phrasing it in a "feelings-first" way, quite likely meant something more like: "given what I know about God, there are aspects of this soteriology that don't sit right with me, i.e. given the lack of beauty, goodness, love, and mercy which seem inherent in penal substitutionary appointment, I'm suspecting there may be a lack of truth as well"; leading him on a journey to uncover the *truth* about (hopefully) more Orthodox and less legalistic lenses for understanding our salvation.
Right, maybe the distinction is between being led by your feelings that something is wrong from one place to another place, and being continually led by your feelings.
I believe this is from Lord of Spirits, which is two Orthodox priests’ podcast. And I heard second or third hand that this notion isn’t actually completely original and may have, a long time ago in a very small quantity, actually somewhat been real
I still have about an hour left in the episode, so forgive me if you mention this, but my favorite theory of communication is the Relevance Theory of Communication. In a nutshell, it says that all communication is by inference (and so the communication must be "relevant" to the receiver). This affirms the importance of how the receiver understands the communication, but it also acknowledges that the receiver can come to a wrong/unintended inference. This is really important for Bible translation, which is the context in which I learned the theory. See Ernst-August Gutt for reading on the Relevance Theory of Communication. As for penal substitution, I have been transitioning away from it gradually over the past five years or so because of what I see in Scripture. I am not one who has come to it with a distaste, thinking it is unjust or incoherent. It started when I had to study "atonement" in the Old Testament, and I saw it was about cleansing. Then last year I began listening to Fr. De Young and heard him talk about the Day of Atonement and Passover, and that has even more reframed how I look at atonement. Just yesterday I came to the realization that I think I don't believe in penal substitution anymore, at least not in the way it is typically formulated in the Protestant, especially Reformed, world. And it is because I am trying to be faithful to what Scripture teaches. I am still open to, I think, to someone making an argument for it. But whenever someone does, it is based on passages in which they have already assumed that atonement is PSA, and so they read it into a passage that doesn't really say that. Now I see cleansing language EVERYWHERE in Scripture. Over and over again, the New Testament says this is what Christ's blood does for us. Hebrews 9-10 (as just an example) parallels Jesus' death with the OT sacrificial system, and the language is all about redemption, cleansing (cf. 1 Jn 1:7, 9), purification, sanctification, and taking away sins.
Emperor Constantine did what he did prior to Baptism. He didn’t receive Chrismation until the end of his life hence “the equal to the Apostles” did what he did based on experience & perspective which are embedded in history.
50:11 I'm sorry, but I've read the Church fathers, they just weren't too bright tbh....and they burned Marcion's books. How can I trust people who burn their oppositions' books? What did they have to hide?
@@AncientFaithMinistriesThank you! I know we all got to pay the bills, so understand some ads thrown in; but the frequency was definitely distracting from the long form discussion. Much appreciated
@@ChrismaMysterion Paying the bills is nice but we try to avoid having midroll ads on because TH-cam goes overboard with how many ads they put in. If you ever notice this happening again please leave a comment and I'll turn them off.
Yes, look into the Paradise and Utopia series by Fr. John Strickland. Particularly the last two books in the series, The Age of Utopia, and The Age of Nihilism. They discuss the rise of modernity and how it affected Christianity, and it centers on how it impacted the Orthodox world in particular.
![Lord of Spirits - A Land of Giants [Ep. 7]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zjqchu-XUXE/mqdefault.jpg)
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
![Lord of Spirits - Israel, I Choose You! [Ep. 103]](/img/n.gif)
i wish i were smart enough to have learned more of modernism and post-modernism coming into this podcast. I'll have to listen a few times to pick up more fully what's being said. Thank you.
3:04 Sponsored by The Orthodox Studies Institute (OSI) at St Constantine College. November 12th.
4:17 101st Episode.
*Modernism*
4:42 intro.
6:16 Quick Review of what we talked about in Episode 100.
8:06 Urbanization. 🏙️
*Other Groups that have Christian Elements*
10:22 Ex. Gnosticism, Neo-Platonism.
11:24 Redeemer Figure.
12:30 Scripture, Authority, Viewpoint, Way of Life.
13:37 Artificial faith.
14:19 Compared to False Christianity, ex. Arianism.
15:12 Treated Canonically Different.
*Relationship between Christianity and Modernism*
15:48 ☦️ and Modernism.
16:58 Cultural Movements. Ideologies are motivating spirits.
*Buzzwords*
19:03 Some people use Modernism as a buzzword/slur for whatever a person dislikes.
20:54 “Dialectic.”
22:46 Buzzwords.
*What is Modernism?*
23:06 Intro
23:34 1. Emphasis on The Individual. Automos. Cannot be divided. 1.
24:19 Individual and Person. 25:03 “Find Myself.” Rather than seeing ourselves from our relationships.
26:22 A kind of Egalitarianism.
27:14 Declaration of Independence. 📜 no one is entirely equal in creation. All inequalities
28:55 Historicized differences.
29:32 Pagan Idea 💡 “The Elite are appointed by the gods.”
30:40 We have different gifts and different callings ☦️✅
32:02 All opinions are of equal value. Entitled to your opinion. 💬
33:02 The Pursuit of Enjoyment. 🤩 Leisure. 🏭
33:48 Theater 🎭 From Athens to Pop Entertainment 💰
34:34 William Shakespeare was popular entertainment.
*Theories of Development*
35:35 Historical Process, how did we arrive where we are?
36:27 Progress. The March towards things getting better. Ex. Karl Marx.
38:04 “You’re not on The Right Side of History.” “It’s [current year].”
39:18 Arrogance and Snobbery. “We are the pinnacle of human achievement.”
40:33 Broad sketch ✍🏼
*Modernism is a foreign element to Christianity*
41:39
44:41
45:04 Reconstructing.
46:04 Egalitarianism.
47:00 Positivist.
47:45 Traditionalism.
49:37 Liberte!
50:07 Modernist Christianity. ✝️
51:46 “Most Scholars agree.”
53:21 Modern Construction.
54:30 Prayers for the microphone 🎤
56:06 The Novel 📖
*Fundamentalists, 19th Century America* ✝️
57:46 Fundamentalists vs Modernists.
59:09 Ken Ham.
Caller 📞 Hannah
1:06:00 Angels and Demons do not have Souls, because Soul is The Life of The Human Body, (or an Animal Soul for an Animal Body)
Caller 📞Gregory
1:08:45
Thanks for doing that. I wish many other previous episodes had a table of contents.
Thank you!
@@todddavidmooresame here! It's quite helpful.
If they're not modernists or postmodernists, they're post malonists.
To be fair to the evangelical speaking on penal substitution, I think we could say (perhaps following Timothy Patitsas' Ethics of Beauty, in which he argues for a "beauty-first" approach rather than "truth-first") that the pastor, although phrasing it in a "feelings-first" way, quite likely meant something more like: "given what I know about God, there are aspects of this soteriology that don't sit right with me, i.e. given the lack of beauty, goodness, love, and mercy which seem inherent in penal substitutionary appointment, I'm suspecting there may be a lack of truth as well"; leading him on a journey to uncover the *truth* about (hopefully) more Orthodox and less legalistic lenses for understanding our salvation.
Right, maybe the distinction is between being led by your feelings that something is wrong from one place to another place, and being continually led by your feelings.
I believe this is from Lord of Spirits, which is two Orthodox priests’ podcast. And I heard second or third hand that this notion isn’t actually completely original and may have, a long time ago in a very small quantity, actually somewhat been real
I still have about an hour left in the episode, so forgive me if you mention this, but my favorite theory of communication is the Relevance Theory of Communication. In a nutshell, it says that all communication is by inference (and so the communication must be "relevant" to the receiver). This affirms the importance of how the receiver understands the communication, but it also acknowledges that the receiver can come to a wrong/unintended inference. This is really important for Bible translation, which is the context in which I learned the theory. See Ernst-August Gutt for reading on the Relevance Theory of Communication.
As for penal substitution, I have been transitioning away from it gradually over the past five years or so because of what I see in Scripture. I am not one who has come to it with a distaste, thinking it is unjust or incoherent. It started when I had to study "atonement" in the Old Testament, and I saw it was about cleansing. Then last year I began listening to Fr. De Young and heard him talk about the Day of Atonement and Passover, and that has even more reframed how I look at atonement. Just yesterday I came to the realization that I think I don't believe in penal substitution anymore, at least not in the way it is typically formulated in the Protestant, especially Reformed, world. And it is because I am trying to be faithful to what Scripture teaches. I am still open to, I think, to someone making an argument for it. But whenever someone does, it is based on passages in which they have already assumed that atonement is PSA, and so they read it into a passage that doesn't really say that.
Now I see cleansing language EVERYWHERE in Scripture. Over and over again, the New Testament says this is what Christ's blood does for us. Hebrews 9-10 (as just an example) parallels Jesus' death with the OT sacrificial system, and the language is all about redemption, cleansing (cf. 1 Jn 1:7, 9), purification, sanctification, and taking away sins.
Emperor Constantine did what he did prior to Baptism. He didn’t receive Chrismation until the end of his life hence “the equal to the Apostles” did what he did based on experience & perspective which are embedded in history.
Degenerate Moderns by Michael E Jones.
Which in itself is modernist 😂
As an ex Marxist, can confirm orthodox Marxism is opposed to postmodernism.
50:11 I'm sorry, but I've read the Church fathers, they just weren't too bright tbh....and they burned Marcion's books. How can I trust people who burn their oppositions' books? What did they have to hide?
Great episode but too many ads
I turned off mid-roll ads so you shouldn't be interrupted anymore
@@AncientFaithMinistriesThank you! I know we all got to pay the bills, so understand some ads thrown in; but the frequency was definitely distracting from the long form discussion. Much appreciated
@@ChrismaMysterion Paying the bills is nice but we try to avoid having midroll ads on because TH-cam goes overboard with how many ads they put in. If you ever notice this happening again please leave a comment and I'll turn them off.
We all know Benjamin Sisko is the best Captain.
John Sheridan is the way better Captain.
Can anyone suggest some good material on this but from a Orthodox perspective?
Yes, look into the Paradise and Utopia series by Fr. John Strickland. Particularly the last two books in the series, The Age of Utopia, and The Age of Nihilism. They discuss the rise of modernity and how it affected Christianity, and it centers on how it impacted the Orthodox world in particular.
I'd recommend this for an Orthodox perspective on the material: th-cam.com/video/i7DOWqokmt8/w-d-xo.html
@@Harryhausen4 yes, the very thing I'm listening to. Lol
I'm curious about material that I can read. Thanks!
@@AncientFaithMinistries thank you!
I'd also suggest Nihilism: The Root of the Modern Revolution by Fr. Seraphim Rose
😊