The Forgotten History of Intersex people
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- CW: Archaic words used to describe intersex people in the past, historic ignorance and mistreatment of intersex people.
The history of many people have been forgotten over the years, only to seem like a recent invention or occurrence. People who have always been here, who have always shared their lives with us, and who have always deserved to be seen, heard, and respected.
In the first of a series of videos, we look at a few things you might not know about Intersex history, from Babylon to Rome to the modern day.
Some resources if you need them:
isna.org/suppo...
headtohealth.g...
www.mind.org.u...
/ intersexuk
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I know Asia isn't your area of study, but it is what I studied. I wanted to confirm that there are and always have been intersex people in Asia. Their lives are not what I focused on, but their stories still showed up in a verity of ways and they definitely existed. Just in case anyone was worried that, some how, intersex people weren't part of their history.
I am also very interested in your PhD studies! I am looking forward to that video.
*high five* to Editing Jimmy. You balance casual conversation, with fact checking really nicely. Thanks for correcting your real, but less than excellent moments, in the educational and humble way you do.
Didn't the Romans have strict gender rules for men and women? I would imagine anyone that was ambiguous to those strict norms would throw that perspective into chaos.
They certainly had strict roles in society, but generally those who didn’t conform were forced into a bracket and made to stay in it quite ruthlessly or were hounded out.
As far as my history knowledge, men had more rights to vote,, land hold etc go to war,, and women were expected to weave sew and take care of children and house. Nothing new
be what you want & love who you
want. Do no harm, do not force &
make what you want to your body;
but maybe medic will not help you,
if you change gender, smoke, or if
you make weird modifications etc.
But, mostly people need to pay for
medical treatment; therefore, just
do what you want, you need to pay
anyway. Be 'chimera'/'manticore'/
cyborg/human2.0/robo-sapiens/…
but do not take advantage, and do
not harm other beings. Be kind etc.
PEACE ‧ & ‧ FREE ‧ LOVE ‧ FOR ‧ ALL
Intersex subscriber here. Loved this. You packed so much information in here I did not even know yet.
Old enough to remember how doctors tried to force me into a choice. My mother stood by me then and still does now. So glad the world is finally starting to be more aware. Hope this trend of knowledge sets through.
Thank you. :}
Thanks so much for taking the time to post this. I'm really glad the video was ok for you, and I'm so glad to hear you've a supportive parent. :)
Hi there.. Lot's of love and respect from a fellow intersex person. Hang in there....
Just curious have you been living life as a man now or a woman...
In my case I have embraced my XY chromosome and chose to live as a normal guy. Also am a muslim just for additional info...
As a 6” tall child cis-woman with the shoulders of a linebacker and equally wide hips, it is a comfort to know that my bones may very well confuse the hell out of an academic 1000 years in the future. That is a very broad hipped man, or is a a gigantic woman..... the burial goods of a cast iron frying pan, a chainsaw and hair adornment don’t help.
As a woman with wide splaying out ribs, narrow hips and a Chad jawline which all results in me having a very male shape - thanks that id a funny and comforting thought lol.
Gotta keep people guessing.
I love that you'd have burial goods :D
Only if your hips are missing. Otherwise the difference would be incredibly obvious immediately.
@@namenloss730 Why would that make it obvious? She could just be a man with broad hips.
You can tell by the hip bones whether a person has given birth before, but not every woman does that so it would not be obvious.
I have a colleague who is intersex and we work quite closely for union matters; she is intersex herself, a vocal advocate nationally and did her PhD on the matter. I've read her thesis and it is frankly incredible and illuminating and taught me a lot about topics I considered myself already reasonably informed in!
As an aside, the "bearded woman" thing can sometimes be due to Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) or other similar hormonal conditions, and there is a kind of reverse (actually that historians theorise the family of Tutankhamen had) where some "feminine" traits present due to similar hormonal disruptions. What I mean to say is that yes, all these can be traits of being intersex, but they are not always. Sex and gender is always tricky, and I appreciate you covering it in the context of history as minorities of any kind are so often seemingly forgotten, and their stories are ones that should be told and remembered
I'd love to read that thesis someday, it sounds absolutely fascinating!
Apologies for the generalisation, I should have covered PCOS and Hypertrichinosis, but didn't manage to remember it all
PCOS is one of the conditions that falls under the umbrella of intersex. The aspect of PCOS that causes the numerous cysts is the fact that the ovaries produce more testosterone than they're supposed to, which leads a thickening of the walls of the ovaries so that they are more like testes, which makes it more difficult for the egg to punch through when it's released.
Intersex isn't always ambiguous external genitalia or unusual chromosome combinations (XXY, XYY, etc.), sometimes it's just hormonal differences. The fact that my polycystic ovaries produce triple the testosterone that they're supposed to is what makes me intersex.
@@TheWelshViking do you have a contact email? I can send it to you!
@@wannabe_elf huh, I've never though about it like that! I have had many hormonal disruptions myself (not PCOS, but only techically because I never had multiple cysts but hit the other issues), and when I went on spiralactin to help my hair grow back my trans friend and I had a "whoa" moment when we realised she's on the same medication as me, and the reason (increasing factors related to female secondary sex characteristics) is pretty much the same, despite her being trans-woman and me being a cis-woman!
@@wannabe_elf I know someone who has this condition. She didn't know what it was until I posed the possibility- at least not in English. She's Haitian. She told me she had an aunt with the same condition. How it seemed to manifest in her was to give her some chin hair which she was constantly battling. It seemed to pose difficulties getting pregnant. It also seemed to make her VERY horny!!! I've explored this phenomenon of intersex QUITE a bit. Yet I would have never thought of her as intersex. So I'm wondering if simply having a beard makes a woman intersex.
I'm reminded of something my mother likes to say: "Everything you think is new has been done before". And that is something we need to keep in mind when people start spouting off about things not being known in history. Humans have always been humans and they deserve to be treated as humans.
Edit to add that I love the mini archeology rant at the end." What is bone?" had me giggling and almost woke my husband.
You are both informative and amusing. There is nothing "New" under the sun. The end of your video was quite amusing.
I just happen to be intersex and transgender if there is such a combination. There are at least forty very separate intersex conditions. I happen to have a germ cell sexual body development. A condition where during gestation the germ cells failed to fully reach the developing gonads. Thus I was born with one ovotestis and one underdeveloped testis.
Even though I appear male I really see myself as a female. So so people would tend to call me transgender.
I just laugh at all the fuss that has been generated by people who have much too much time on their hands and need to worry about how we live our lives. I’ve been married for forty years and we manage to get along just fine without someone having to define who and what I am or am not.
I also have had a great deal of surgeries that were to some degree uncalled for.
Thank you for taking the time to share all of this :)
I am forever grateful for your refusal to generalize. I keep hearing people - especially in election season (blegh) - saying "well, gender/sex is how it has always been so get over it." Not just this video but in general your deep dives into topics are a refreshing antidote to the "this is how it has always been" attitude. Also I had way too much fun with the archeology "rant" at the end.
"What is bone?" - sounds like a first line from a Shakespear's monologue
As long as humans and human cultures have existed, humans have presented with the whole panopoly of human sexuality, both physically and socially/culturally, and the ways that societies have dealt with it historically usually seemed to be a case of, “well, make your mind up” and then they were accepted as whatever gender they chose. Way back, hermaphroditism(physically) was both feared and because of that fear, they were often considered god touched and thus, were priests, and respected(kinda). In the pacific islands, Samoa specifically, you have the Fa’afafine, who are often physically male, but are sometimes physically trans, and emotionally and mentally intersex. They were treated and accepted as female....up till the missionaries arrived anyway. These days, they are still here but while there IS acceptance, there’s also that church, “gay is bad” vibe which is sad. In England in the 1600s there was the infamous cut purse and fence, Moll Frith, who was fond of men’s clothing and her pipe, and seemed to garner both affection and scandal in equal measure. There’s a story that she requested that she be buried, face down, bum up lol, a final “up yours” to the world. Moll Frith is one of my personal hero’s. The difference today is that while there are a lot of people that will never accept anything but the binary, two genders, male +female paradigm, there are others who are open to the existence of “other”. And yeah sometimes it feels like we’re howling into the wind(I was gonna use the “other” metaphor there but I’m trying to be polite), trying to have difference, otherness, heard in this world, but things ARE changing. Glacially slowly, but they are. Finally on a totally unrelated note, caught your collab with Liz from Lizcapism....very cool....coulda listened to a lot more of that “hint hint”
Sorry but what does "'emotionally and mentally intersex" mean?
"What is bone?" Bone is the one that sticks to your tongue!
...I know too many archaeologists.
You know just enough archaeologists ;)
Another former archaeologist here. I'm still shaken that I actually saw a meme about this a few days ago, that only an archaeologist would get. Johnny Depp in Pirates if The Caribbean surrounded by all the white stones, picks one up, licks it, "No, not bone." Some archaeologist somewhere released a meme into the wild!
@@nikkia9506 Well I wasn't expecting to learn two new facts about biology and geology from an archaeology meme described in a youtube comment, from a video about the history of intersex people.
THE INTERNET IN ACTION.
Some of us have RECLAIMED the HERM term! And it must be understood that intersex is not determined only by one's genitals! Way too much focus on the genital configuration!
I don't care what sex/gender you are. If your nice, I like you, if your mean, I don't like you
I love so much when we crack open history again and realize there were tons of things there that didn't get noticed and/or were forgotten about because they didn't fit certain narratives. Things like gender identity, sexuality, gender roles are so ripe for this because certain people place such value judgements and insist that only one way of thinking is correct.
I have a personal pet theory that centuries from now they're going to look back at the idea of the gender binary and even the schema we used to classify gender and think we were as quaint and adorable as we do when we look back on the idea of health being related to the four humors. Like bless our hearts we tried but boy did we get a lot wrong because we didn't even know how to look at the issue.
Anyway, loved the vid. Great job!
TheBrat Queen i so hope your theory plays out. That looks more like the future I want then the fears that play in my head.
ONE PERCENT?! Wow, how on earth does society understand/accept so little about intersex people when it's so common! That is mind-blowing!
Also since you just casually revealed that you can (at least) read French I'm curious as to how many languages you can read and speak?
I read Welsh, English, and French pretty fluently. I have enough Italian to know what I'm doing, my Gaelic is basic, my German rudimentary, and my Russian and Greek are appalling.
@@TheWelshViking that is seriously impressive!
@@TheWelshViking Beindruckend!
It's absolutely not that common.
It's 1% only if you try to include all people with atypical genetic and hormonal traits.
You need to count things like klinefelter syndrome (XXY) which are males with small penises, testies, and are mostly sterile. Most of the people included as intersex under those conditions do not have any visible clues or perceivable impacts. They would never have been viewed as intersex/hermaphrodite/... at any point in history until modern medicine. And most will never know of their "condition".
Trying to push an "intersex" identity on those people is the same as trying to push a label on me for my chiari that was randomly discovered after an accident but has no effect on my life.
You present the Islamic Law regarding intersex people as if it's a compassionate recognition of their nonbinary status, but in fact it was intended to ensure an intersex person couldn't gain the legal rights granted to men or women. At least the Christian Law and Jewish Law approaches of requiring intersex people to identify as either men or women ensured they would get the legal rights of one group, rather than none.
throwin it out there that "transgender" is preferred over "transsexual," which is considered antiquated (unless someone specifically prefers that label)
Seconded, I know he didn't mean it negatively but still made me cringe a little
Absolutely my bad. I normally don't use the word and blame my own stupidity and reading old articles for my mistake. Apologies to all.
@@TheWelshViking It's a learning curve! Definitely understand when looking at older sources. Thank you for your openness to criticism :)
@@hannahb6442 Mistakes get made a *lot* in my little world, so I have to recognise it! XD
Thank you Ray, I am trying to educate myself and all of this helps.
This is good but there's an issue with your interpretation of the term "khuntha mushkil." This Arabic term translates not to "intersex person" but " the intersex problem" as it was described in the early Islamic law of inheritance. An honest mistake it seems, but an unfortunate one all the same.
Thank you so much for this. As an intersex historian, this video really resonated with me. I love when historians can help people see their significance and worth extends into the past. Thank you for taking the time to create this video. I am so glad I found your channel.
Can I just make a slight correction here or explain more fully that it is more true to say that non-binary is a term for people who do not conform to the gender binary but people with INTERSEX characteristics have BODIES that do not conform to traditional and medicalised definitions of male or female. It is not a gender identity (for most people with intersex traits, tho it might be part of their identity). INTERSEX is about the body, about one's SEX rather than one's social gender.
I was an acquaintance and client of Ms. Sid back in the 70s. She was the first transgender person in our state and was murdered in 77 or 78 (I'm sorry I can't remember the exact year)
It was horrifying what she went through prior to her death. Her bravery is what I remember the most about her.
We need more forgotten history... I appreciate this. This needs to be heard by the people who don’t want to acknowledge that everyone deserves respect and autonomy.
As with Marvel movies, one is rewarded for sticking through the credits until the very end 😂💜
As a proud member of the SCA Pirate community and ally of Clan Blue Feather, I have taught classes at reenactment events here in the North East United States, on transgender people in period. The most notable person I use is Catalina De Erauso, a former Nun from Spain who ran away from the convent and lived for 20 years as a Alonso Diaz, a Spanish soldier of fortune in South America. When their biological sex was discovered, they went first to Spain, then to Rome and was given pensions for military service and a Papal dispensation to continue to live as a man. I love this story because it proved that the Church was not as backwards and anti learning as it has been portrayed.
Catalina de Erauso was AMAZING.
Thank you for your work raising awareness and teaching about figures and parts of history of history schools refuse to acknowledging and for giving me someone to look into. Its always interesting learning about a previously unknown LGBTQ+ historic figure. I couldn't help feeling the need to check here though, but as they chose to live as a man wouldn't it be proper to refer to them by their chosen masculine name not their birth name of Catalina? Or did they speak out later to reclaim the name despite shedding it previously?
@@khaxjc1 I used the name they used to publish their autobiography with as that is the name they chose. Without actually speaking with them we actually don’t know if they were actually transgendered or just gender nonconforming. I personally tend to believe they were transgender as they returned to South America and continued to live as a man.
Would love to know what area in the NE you have events. I am a pirate community member in Atlanta. Looking to relocate to New England.
Supportive Uncle Jimmy is a good bean.
It always makes my head explode when people say that intersex people are new. People have existed on all parts of the sex and gender spectrums for all of human history. It's fun to make the heads of people who believe that explode when you explain that "primitive" cultures totally got that and had words and roles for people outside the binary.
Edit: YES to the difficulty sexing skeletons.
It's like saying that any kind of physical thing someone may be born with is somehow new like do they not understand how biology and science works lol
Hermaphrodites & The Medical Invention of Sex, by Alice Dreger is a great resource. And thank you Jimmy for calling people's attention to the hermstorical lives of intersex.
I'm intersex and trans. I'm AMAB but have fairly strong Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, plus I've felt that my gender identity aligns solidly as woman and has since I can remember
Thank you for the reasoned discourse on this matter, in the absolute hellscape that being trans in 2022, when being subjected to abusive rhetoric from terfs, they conveniently forget that a) we're human, b) we exist, c) its not a fucking choice, d) SERIOUSLY STOP IT ffs, e) we've been here all along, and f) there's no absolute gender binary, intersex people existing make this pretty bloody clear
As a genderqueer person, I appreciated hearing your views on the historical representations of non-binary folks. I wish I'd had the words for how I felt about gender growing up. It took me twenty years to sort things out. The cool people definitely have our backs. Take care, Jimmy.
Thank you for making this video! I really liked it. The disclaimers about respectful words and the informations in the description are very much appreciated.
I'm so glad it was ok for you. Thanks for taking the time to leave such a lovely comment, Maze :)
This was so interesting, and I had heard of almost none of it! The idea that any of this is simple and binary, or that it's some new modern thing is so foolish.
As a trans person I'd just like to say that I think you're a good egg and I appreciate this content. And thank you for the "making a big fuss can embarrass people, just be cool and move on" bit!
A note on generalizations at 8:56: the bearded woman -- I do believe that there are biological women with naturally occurring high levels of androgens who are not intersex.
(Forgot to thank you for this video, so: thank you! looking forward to the next in the series)
Indeed. I believe that endometriosis, PCOS and related issues can cause facial hirsuteness.
100%, this was something I meant to cover and it slipped by.
@@TheWelshViking I am sorry, other people have made the same comment I did, I should have realized.
@@azteclady No apology needed, it's worth pointing out, and it's something I should have included :)
Also, you don’t even necessarily have to have high androgen levels for this to occur. Hair follicles can just be unusually sensitive to androgens, so even average hormonal levels can result in some whiskers.
I know I"m three years late, but thanks for creating this, Jimmy. It means a lot.
Disclaimer: This is based on documentary and a bit of research, I am by no means is an expert in this case. So if you know more or I got something wrong do correct me :)
This reminds me of a murder case from the late 19th century here in Denmark. A boy was killed while living in an orphanage. The murderer was the warden Vilhelmine Møller, a strongly religious woman who was a genius in childrearing. She was present-day-modern in her approach to the concept of childhood and for that the children liked her (no wonder when the alternative is a beating and "stop being a child"). She was highly regarded for her work and dedication. During the murder case something was off and the judge ordered a mental and physical examination and to the surprise of all she was deemed intersex (my wording). But because she had underdeveloped male parts - being visible compared to ovaries - she was forced to become a man being moved to a male prison and then a male ward in a workhouse. The court had to go to the king and get a decree changing her assigned gender, because the law was so binary it was impossible to prosecute her for the murder (don't ask my why or how, but apparently it was the case).
In her journals she seems to say she felt more inclined towards the female side, hence my pronoun choice.wereHer assignment to male did allow her to marry a woman she had met while she was in the female prison. The woman was one of the guards.
It lead to a big debate in different spheres about what the female and male gender is. It was raised in a medical journal and argued that someone who had lived 38 years as a woman couldn't be expected to live, act and be a man just with a decision. Someone in that situation could be called (as apparently was a thing in Jutland - a (then) rural part of Denmark) a 'neither'.
Sadly over all it lead to vilifying unmarried and/or elderly women who were assumed to be men in disguise. The reasoning being that women who lead a life without a man present of course become perverted. Isn't that a novel reaction!
But why did she murder the boy?
Raise your hand if you were expecting to see an Viking example, at the end. I was hoping it was that random person strolling by, in the background at the end. I'm laughing at my expectations. Very enjoyable chat, Jimmy. Thank you for opening the conversation.
stay to watch the hidden few seconds... glad I did *)
Haha! I'd have loved it if I'd been able to co-ordinate that.
Alas, I tried to find a viable example of the Vikings discussing intersex people, but failed to do so. They were almost certainly aware, but didn't write much. Happy to be presented with evidence though!
Alot of what we know about vikings are really limited to what's in the eddas and archaeological finds sadly. I think there was polyamory in there culter but as far as other things go it's harder to know
@@lunawolfheart336 There was to a degree. We know that some sources from the Viking period itself refer to men having concubines, but it's certainly not polyamory in the way we think about it today!
So I came to the channel directly from the Why Horned Helmets collab. I went to see what videos were here to find, saw this and immediately clicked while saying "hell yes". Im not intersex. Im just someone who find sit insane and shameful that it is still propitiated that, and Im quoting here, "it started with Adam and Eve. Thats how it is and how its always been." The number of people I have talked to who have no idea oronly have horribly butchered information. Then there is the discussion of gender and pronouns and I hear these arguments using "History" to prop up their prejudice ideas and just want to cry with frustration.
As a prime example, some time back I was having a conversation with my uncle's friend and I haven't been able to let it go. It pops back into my head over and over. We had been discussing history and how so many people dont learn from it with things repeating over and over and people acting like its new which led to talking about a lobster that was getting a bunch of attention for reproducing without a mate and how people were acting like this was new. I mentioned how I followed a comic series that was all about teaching people about how different species reproduce and species that have more than just binary sexes. All my uncle's friend needed to hear was binary and he went off about how the idea of non binary or anything other than male female is just a fad. And how when an archeologist digs up your bones they will look at them and declare you male or female so that shows how it is. After just talking about people not learning from history he had then gaul to say that. So hearing you talk about sexing bones at the end was like balm.
Beyond loving to hear the topic of gender discussed through the lens of history, I also thoroughly enjoyed the humor, and thoughtfulness and how it came off not like a lecture but a sharing of information. And the care with which you proceeded! Trying to be thoughtful of sensitivities and just. Im so happy I came across this channel and the collab cause this is the best Friday night Ive had since my area first went into lockdown.
Im sorry this comment isn't its best. The last several days have been extremely stressful with much anxiety and little sleep. Its only ten pm but I'm completely exhausted and just a bit out of it. There were several times I could not think of a word or how to phrase things. Im fairly certain I failed to accurately express what Im feeling and thinking but the core of it is Thank you. Thank you so much for this video and being the kind of person who would put in the effort to make a video about this. Im very happy to have discovered this channel and am looking forward to exploring it more.
This was kinda uplifting to watch while refilling meds for, amongst others, a condition that makes me the bearded lady. My facial hair does not make me special, historically. Gotta survive past forty to achieve that one.
thank you for making this. I am trans and in the SCA and trying to figure out how to fit my identity into 10th ish century Norway... I know there's some things about homosexuality but I can't find much on gender non-conforming people of that area, maybe it was a similar thing, that they could pick but they had to pick
but maybe not, the concept was probably not foreign to them
p.s. is it just me or is Loki like the trans patron god? lol
As a nonbinary intersex queer person (who just discovered your channel, instant sub my friend ❤️) it's so refreshing and empowering to see perisex/dyadic individuals elevating the voices of intersex people and our history, and affirming that we've always been part of history as much as anyone else. A majority of pre-christian cultures had words and descriptions for intersex or gender and sex variant people even if they don't exactly translate to modern gender labels or terminology (except in some cases like the Jewish intersex varieties (tumtum, androgynos, and a third I can't recall), indigenous American two spirit, and the Indian hijra), and many considered us sacred or divine, even! Nature isn't binary, the world isn't defined in black and white without intermediary greys, and many forget that defining something as complex as sex or gender is not so simple and contrasted like binarist colonial idealogies believe.
Intersex people especially are often left behind in advocacy and even still it's legal for us to be medically abused in a majority of places. So often we are forced with no say into picking a "side" before were old enough to protest, or are pressured into the same as children, teens, or young adults. I myself only recently found that I'm intersex because my condition is covert and presents itself in late teens, so as a child it went unseen. I was among the lucky ones not given nonconsensual surgeries or operations as a child, but many aren't so lucky to evade that treatment.
Thank you for educating about us and speaking about something so many people would rather pretend doesn't exist. ✨🙏✨
Also as a note it's very important to account that intersex people sometimes do not have ambiguous genitals or gonads at all and sometimes the condition is predominantly of a hormonal nature it's just a matter of Which Condition is causing it. There's also grey areas, for example some with PCOS can be considered intersex and identify as such because they experience hyperandrogenism which causes them to be oppressed the same ways, but hyperandrogenism is the criteria for intersexness under this condition, not PCOS itself. Not everyone with PCOS is intersex but some are welcomed under the umbrella due to their experiences as they also experience medical abuse, pressure, and dogmatic practices. In the medical field there is misconception that NO PCOS classifies as intersex but that's a matter of academic dogma and bias that intends to shrink our numbers on paper to maintain the "rarity" myth. We're not exactly common but certainly not rare.
NCAH (my condition) and hyperandrogenic PCOS are some of the most underacknowledged intersex variants, because we present as more "binary" anatomically and are more easily "medically corrected' as a result, often doctors will diagnose the condition but tell the patient that they're not "actually" intersex, despite them clearly existing outside of biological perisex/dyadic phenotype standards. There's also an entire medical industry built on shaming people with hyperandrogenic intersex conditions like NCAH and PCOS in people assigned female at birth into "becoming more feminine" with pressure to remove extra body and facial hair, take estrogen and lower androgen levels for cosmetic reasons, etc. Also, NCAH is often misdiagnosed as PCOS by lazy doctors who don't want to test for everything, which also reduces our documented population because the medical field currently excludes PCOS despite many with PCOS being included in our own community by intersex people. This results in most AFAB hyperandrogenic people being diagnosed with PCOS, told "oh you're not "actually intersex" we can "fix" it", and then comes the shaming and medical pressure to conform.
Also as an aside related to this tangent anyone reading this please remember intersex people aren't sterile or infertile by default and many are able to reproduce, which destroys the misconception that we're broken evolutionary failures. The myth that no intersex people can ever reproduce is another part of the medical dogma of the contemporary age that exists to marginalize us and make us appear to be inherently biologically flawed.
It's imperitive in my view as an intersex person that we do not allow perisex medical academics to define what we are, because they're our most direct oppressors.
Also a small correction! The percentage of known intersex population is at least 4% of the world but it's most assuredly more than that due to underdiagnosis and covert intersex conditions
Here in the Southwest, they are said to be between the worlds. and are generally thought to be a good thing, a special spirit.
I chose my anthropology major partially because I learned about intersex people and nonhinary genders in other cultures and felt like I wasn't alone for the first time. The cool people do indeed have our backs! Thanks Jimmy. I learned tons of new things.
Finding ways to incorporate gender nonconformity into my creative-anachronism persona has been an interesting challenge! I started by reading about eunuchs in the Byzantine empire, trying to suss out how such people presented themselves. Alas, most of the sources are about fancy guys who worked in the palace with their gold robes and badges of rank and silk slippers. I'm looking for the medieval misfits! Criminals, sex workers, entertainers, the spicy underbelly that exists in every society. If you have any tips on tracking them (and their clothes, so I can bite their style) down, please share!
Maybe I should look into circuses next.
I'm not sure that the "spicy underbelly" is really the place to look for gender nonconformity, honestly. In the past, as we saw, many cultures forced people to pick one binary option and go with it, or suffer serious consequences up to and including death at times.
Criminals, sex workers, circus performers and entertainers generally didn't have a uniform, as we might like them to, and wore whatever clothing reflected their position in society, or whatever finery they could afford, just like everyone else. For many, of course, that wasn't very much. Sadly, the criminal classes weren't necessarily any more accepting than anyone else, in any given period.
Since we're talking creative anachronism, the way you interpret this one is up to you, but maybe consider just wearing the clothes of the gender/s you don't present usually? That was what Thomasine Hall did, and it was enough to "out" them as intersex in the early 1600s.
Thank you for this important and erased history! It's baffling how many people think intersex people are a made up modern thing when we have evidence of people being born this way since the dawn of history
That was fascinating. Thank you very much.
I'm both interested in historical clothing and culture and in LGBTIQ* rights. So I'm thrilled to hear something that combines the two topics.
It's long overdue to outlaw the genital mutilation of intersex children. (And genital mutilation in general.)
As a trans
on Binary person I have to thank you for these videos. They are super educational, and you are so respectful with these topics. Your videos really are a breath of fresh air. Thank you again for shedding light on the less talked about topics.
Hmm. I had no idea that the term hermaphrodite had fallen out of favor, thank you.
I have always been against sex assignment at birth so I actually had an escape plan when my kiddos were born (over 18 years ago) if they had been born intersexed.
You learn new things everyday. Now to go reprogram my lexicon...
I'm not intersex but I am non-binary trans and I just want to thank you for making such an informative video on this subject! I really wish more people understood that intersex and trans people have always existed. It's tough times out there for us at the moment and it's always encouraging to find folks who are supportive!
Thank you. I'm not an intersex person, and I don't know any intersex people. That is to say, if I know any intersex people, they have never seen a reason to tell me that they are intersex. My stake in this topic is just the fact that intersex people just that, people. I don't like it when my fellow humans suffer indignities for merely existing. Anyone with a platform using their voice to make any of us feel less alone get's a thank you from me. So again, thank you.
There must have been a time in the world before anyone named all the various colors. That doesn't mean the whole spectrum didn't exist yet or that every flower anyone saw was some shade of gray. May we never let words or the lack of them define what we experience nor limit how we perceive the the world and our own place in it.
As a they/them I appreciated the way you corrected your accidental misgendering (and put an informational slide in there). Honestly if the acknowledgement or apology is necessary to the misgenderer in the slap-your-forehead-if-you-forget-your-keys way that it seems to be, I kinda wish more people would just go "ah, f*ck," correct themselves, and move on - it would certainly save conversational time! I appreciate that you left it in and made it a teachable moment
(Also, free tip to anyone reading this: a good way to get used to using someone's pronouns is, whenever you misgender them whether verbally or in your head, say or think three sentences about that person deliberately using their pronouns)
You remind me of a cross between early H Bomber and Simon Roper, excellent video
Giggles at the very end.
I’m really happy to see this subject pop up in something other than medical documentary type videos, while they’re very good videos, it gives the impression that intersex people are to be pitied and that the forced assignment of gender that has been perpetrated by the medical community was ‘a good thing’ even when the person in question had their world completely turned upside down when they finally found out that they were, in fact, intersex! I’m glad that parents have the option now to refuse to have their child’s gender decided on before they can make their own choices, even though the medical community will still try to pressure parents to a ridiculous degree! Hopefully more people will be educating themselves and advocating for their children instead of making a choice that’s hugely premature and possibly not even needed! Thank you for sharing all the interesting historical information that, I hope, will help parents make a more informed decision!
Also, “What is bone?” Is going to be in my head for a while! ROTFLMFAO!
I was unbelievably happy to find this video! I'm non-binary and while I am not intersex, reading about intersex people throughout history and mythology was a comfort for me when I was younger. You might like the Babylonian/Sumerian myths of Asushunamir. If you're interested, you can find multiple translations/tellings online(though some use pretty dated language). That myth was what first got me into Babylonian history and mythology.
Another related(and awful) story from America: during what's widely considered the first "mud-slinging" campaign in U.S election history, John Quincy Adams was accused of being intersex and thus ineligible to run. I can't remember if he was subject to examination but either way, telling...
Informative and respectful. If people really think these things are only modern are crazy. People have always have differences, we're just more accepting now.
Diolch! thank goodness for archaeologists. (oh boy sexing skeletons! that's a whole thing says the ex-osteoarch)
Croeso!
I just... can't. I try, and I fail every single time. I'll manage one day, maybe.
I remember sitting in a lecture and the presenter repeatedly stating how, although it was hard to sex skeletons, the brow ridge was always a deadset giveaway... I sit at the fairly female end of the physiological spectrum and I have a brow ridge/forehead dint combo so large it casts shadows and makes me really self conscious about photos, so yeah, nah mate.
At least theropod dinosaurs (more my usual end of dabbling) have special bone structures that only appear if they're preparing to lay eggs, but humans, no thanks!
I know this is an older video, but I have to mention that I started crying at the after credits message. The topic of the video was super interesting (and bloody sad and depressing tbh), but your after credits message.. Just thank you I guess.
As a completely ignorant CIS female aspie who wishes to learn, is the term "hermaphrodite" not acceptable? I always liked the sound of the word (not for any particular reason) and just thought it meant the same thing as intersex: body parts of both genders in a single entity. Is that not correct? Or is it implying something negative? I do hope that this line of questioning is not rude in itself but I learnt a long time ago (as someone with aspergers who often misses subtle ways in which words can be used against someone) that it's better to learn than to potentially repeat past mistakes. Please do teach me with an open mind and simple words. I sincerely wish to know about this. It only occurred to me that it was possibly a negative word when this TH-camr (whom I have never watched before this video) said the word "unfortunately" in relation to people still using it.
mbncd so, short answer as I understand it is that its generally best practices not to use the term hermaphrodite. Going a little more into it their are some who are choosing to reclaim the word or dont take issue with it but much like with pronouns its best to wait to hear what some says they prefer for refering to them and on the whole just use intersex.
As for why, that is complicated and Im no expert but my understanding is the main issue is what the word brings to mind. "Body parts of both sexes in a single entity." Generally people think hermaphrodite and the think of the secondary sexual characteristics. The imagine amalgamation of parts usually focused on duel genitalia where two sets have been cut and pasted to fit together on one body. Sorry for being crude, but bluntly put many imagine "a woman who has a penis instead of a clitoris." This isn't the reality of things.
As I dint trust my own ability to words this right Im going to quote it. "Intersex people are individuals born with any of several variations in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, or genitals that according to the UN office of the high commissioner for human rights, do not fit the typical definitions for male or female." Its an umbrella term that covers a variety of conditions. If you have the time Id suggest looking into some of those conditions to have a better understanding of just how different they can be.
And no judgment for not knowing. There is so much that can be learnt. Its perfectly understandable that we all have gaps and in what we know. Besides words can be tricky things as their meanings and common usage and our understanding of the subjects the relate to change over time. Its the willingness to learn and admit ignorance that matters.
@@khaxjc1 Thank you very much, both for the education you have given me and for the patience and understanding you have shown me! Having taught someone today how they can treat people better, you have made this world a better place. You are a good person
This channel’s all about education, understanding people have different ways of learning, and have learnt different things. Couldn’t have put any of this better meself! Thanks, guys! :)
mbncd ah shucks. You've made me teary.
khaxjc1 is generally correct. A hell of a lot of people, both in and out of the intersex community, think of "hermaphrodite" as almost a slur. In reality, it's like rectangles and squares. Not all intersex people can be described as hermaphroditic, but all hermaphrodites are intersex. I personally (as an intersex person who is not a hermaphrodite) think that it's a perfectly acceptable term that does exactly what it should as a descriptive word: describe the subject. I do have a friend who prefers to identify as a female-presenting hermaphrodite, and (obviously) she also likes the word. But that doesn't alter the fact that a huge number of people hate the word and refuse to use it for any reason. Whether it's an appropriate descriptor depends on the subject whom you are describing, ultimately, but it's probably best to err on the side of caution. Intersex is more inclusive and less charged.
The end rant about assigning a sex to a skeleton and your discussion with the horizontal line gave me a much needed giggle this morning.
Also, the video was amazing, as usual! Glad to hear your fieldwork went/is going well 👍☺️
Could you potentially do a video about trans people in early medieval history, specifically the viking age? As much as I love emperor(ess) Elagabalus, I mainly do viking age reenactment.
I haven't really studied this really since college (class of 2005), so I really enjoyed the refresher. It's also just great to have a video that covers the subject rather well, without being too long for a casual viewer. I also applaud you for including the resources you mentioned at the end!
It's so refreshing and heartening to see a straight white man (I am assuming you're straight, do forgive and correct me if I'm wrong) being a proper ally in a non-arrogant, non-conceited way! You show up with historical sources, thoroughly researched info, love, acceptance, and support, and it's just so wonderful, every time. Thanks for that, Jimmy, much love!
I was busy in the room and thought you’d signed off with, “what is bone?” And after a few beats I hear you talking to your camera! Lol bonus footage, eh?
I can't believe you mentioned Judaism and didn't say that the Talmud (the authoritative text on how Jewish people should live) recognizes EIGHT sexes
Zachar, male.
Nekevah, female.
Androgynos, having both male and female characteristics.
Tumtum, lacking sexual characteristics.
Aylonit hamah, identified female at birth but later naturally developing male characteristics.
Aylonit adam, identified female at birth but later developing male characteristics through human intervention.
Saris hamah, identified male at birth but later naturally developing female characteristics.
Saris adam, identified male at birth and later developing female characteristics through human intervention.
There they are 👆
Bone gendering is hard. I heard that you can sex a jawbone based on a particular hook at the edge of a jaw. I'm female, but lo and behold, my dental xrays show a bloody great blade of a jawbone and a hook to the edge that can be felt from the outside.
Now it turns out that I'm trans, mind, so someone deciding it's a man's jawbone wouldn't be entirely wrong....
I think it was sometime in the 90's when I read an article about intersex - "hermaphrodite" babies that had until recently before that time been in bulk surgically "corrected" into girls, based only on the fact that it was technically an easier operation to hack off the dangly bits than to do the opposite. And the babies' parents then proceeded to condition them (and also - with the medical assistance of the oh so helpful medical providers - stuffed them with all possible hormonal drugs to further "correct" their physical development) to behave and serve as females in society.
Very refreshing to see a viking enthusiast Who isnt a bigot. Much love❤️❤️
hi nonbinary subscriber here. not too many youtubers using the term non binary. its important for visibility. so thanks a lot!
Abhorrent things were still being done to children without their consent of knowledge when I was a teenager 😢
Hi, great video, but i do wanna say that while most Jewish communities have historically identified Amab and Afab ppl predominantly, Jewish law recognizes 3 intersex categories, and a fourth category that has a distinction between an intersex person and a "created" person. Potiphar/Potiphera (both names are used in the text of the Torah for this person and honestly there are some interesting genderfucky things in the Torah) is of this last category, a saris. There are some bigoted Rabbinic interpretations about "why" Potiphar is a saris unfortunately, and we don't even know if the text was saying Potiphar was intersex or trans (probably not a enuch, Potiphar had a wife), but I did want to say that especially as it's become a bit controversial to talk about these categories. Some people say they're inherently bigoted and backward (usually ppl who are not intersex), others have appropriated them to refer to trans people when most of these words are definitely for intersex people, that sort of thing.
Thank you for talking about this! Would of been nice to not just cover Western views on intersex. Guess that gives you something to talk about next year for intersex awareness day :)
Alas I had limited time for research and videomaking, and my main subject area is medieval Europe, but heck yeah! Let's do another one focusing on other areas!
That video somehow fit well with the podcast I am listening to right now.
"Not the things you thought you knew" by Dr. Fern Ridell. I do reccommend
This was so interesting! You should send your video / do a write up for www.makingqueerhistory.com/ They do lots of amazing articles on queer history and this definitely counts!
Interesting video as always. Bones are apparently why my mom chose cultural anthropology instead. :)
Judaism has a huge area of discussion in the Talmud (main body of jurisprudence and legal reasoning) regarding intersex people. So there are cases under discussion where intersex people are exempt from obligatory prayer (analogous to halakhic rules for women) but have men's obligations in marriage law vis a vis the brides gift and property. I am intersex, very interesting video.
Thankyou for making this kind of gentle, nuanced, very human content. It's balm for the soul x
Hey Jimmy, I already thought you were pretty amazing, but the more of your videos I watch, the more I think you are the absolute best! I have two adult non-binary kids, and have forwarded this to both of them.
[And yes, as I understand it intersex and non-binary gender are different to each other, because sex and gender are different]
Your verbal hug at the end got me tearing up! (As someone who afaik fits the conventional binary comfortably!)
One of the random Zoom chat groups I've found myself in during lockdown is one for trans people and their allies (it's mostly women, but not all); one of the conversations that came up was around biologically intersex people (many of whom may have no idea that they might not be the gender they were assigned at birth), and the statistic quoted was around 1 in 60!
For the scientifically interested, there are some good talks on the RI channel, which totally debunk the idea that gender is a simple XY binary!
catherinerw1 just wanted to just if by RI channel you meant the royal institute?
@@khaxjc1 Yes, sorry, I do. C
When did the word "hermaphrodite" become offensive? It's not a clinical term, but as you pointed out, the word was created by a society that recognized that gender is a spectrum instead of a binary, so I'm not seeing how it's offensive. Is it offensive because some people said it in an unkind tone of voice? If that's the case, then damn near every adjective in the English language is offensive by now. Nobody has stopped using "man", "woman", "boy", or "girl" even though those words have absolutely been used as insults in the past. You can't stop using words just because other people use them as insults, because it's a game for certain types of people to try to make every word they can think of an insult of some kind. Why would they do this? So they can laugh as polite people continuously scramble to invent new polite words to use, and never actually be able to communicate effectively because they're constantly having to replace the words they use.
It's used in biology (with a VERY specific requirement that the animal showing hermaphrodism be fertile and virile, it can be simultaneous (as in slugs) or sequential (as in fish), something that can only function as one is pseudohermaphroditic).
But for humans, it's... Well. It's like "freak" and freakshows like PT Barnum and other conmen ran. It's a sensationalized, dehumanizing thing because of the context it got as it modernized, where the word got systematically used to strip away someone's humanity and dignity as a person and turned them into curious exhibits, like putting arboriginal people in literal zoos. It's also part of forced sex reassignment surgeries on intersex newborns and children because it was considered a condition to be "fixed", when it wasn't even impacting the baby's health.
Unless you're intersex, it's not your word to reclaim. If you want to use it so much, better start becoming an ocean or amphibian nerd, that's where it's appropriate to use it.
khuntha mushkil, basically means intersex difficulties, hard to explain, but the sex of the person is completely undeterminable, too many physical features or too little of both sexes, otherwise they're simply khuntha male or khuntha female. All can use they/them and dress outside binary if they wish, but khuntha with a majority gender will be treated financially as the majority gender in most cases.
khuntha= came from the word for effeminate or gay man, but is used to describe an intersex/agendered person that's completely androgenous biologically
mushkil= difficulty
but you're right, androgenous or not, you get to live as non binary( like standing inbetween men and women, in prayer, and wearing whatever you like etc), up until inheritance, then usually you'll be given your money based on the local customs, (either a male portion, a female portion, both combined or half of both combined), so it's different per country or tribe
This channel is so wholesome❤❤❤
Thanks, Jimmy for yet another great video!
*vigorously subscribes *
Thank you for saying what needs to be said.
I enjoyed it a lot, very informative. Wasn't Annie Jones Elliot a cis woman with hirsutism though? Also, hearing you say "Herculine Barbin" instantly made my day (it's fairly accurate apart from the wonky A, just adorably overpronounced).
All bearded ladies were intersex? Admittedly there probably were some, but many of them would have been women with PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome). The most public of these currently, in the UK at least, is Harnaam Kaur, who refused to shave and campaigned for women not to have to. Not intersex. My own daughter has to shave. I'm now here wondering what the ratio of intersex bearded ladies to PCOS bearded ladies was in those day. Bet that worms its way into my dreams tonight 😆
I only discovered your videos last week. Quirky and informative. Love 'em.
Oh no, not all by any means! But many were, and underwent unpleasant and invasive inspections and examinations, often post-mortem as a strange curiosity. Thoroughly unpleasant stuff!
Some also had hirsutism or hypertrichosis as well, of course. It's a bit of a general video, I must admit.
Thanks! Really glad to have you! :D
@@TheWelshViking Of course! I'd forgotten about the Victorian tendency to poke anything curious with a sharp knife.
Many people believe that PCO's belong to the wider definition of intersex: people with bodies that do not conform to traditional definitions of female and male.
@@dellagracevolcano My daughter's definitely female, but I can see where they're coming from.
the best part of this video is that i can understand it perfectly without subtitles. also that it's super informative. rock on mr viking :)
also i've seen claims that intersex is as common as 1 in 20 people (so 5% of humans). haven't seen a source but since it came from an intersex information site i'm not super worried about it being wrong
This...made me so freaking happy just seeing this thumbnail. I recently had discovered I am intersex and this made me feel so...so happy and validated. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you, thank you, for just touching on our existence, thank you for giving me more proof to tell people that I exist and I am valid. Thank you...(I'm crying while writing this so I'm sorry I'm saying thank you so much)
Bless you! I’m not surprised you’re emotional if it’s 4am where you are!
You’re a valid and valued human being, and anyone who says otherwise can take a long jump off a short pier. Take care!
@@TheWelshViking this made my entire day
And your comments made mine! Thanks for the much needed positivity boost! :)
Not intersex here but genderfluid/transmasc. It's nice to see videos discussing this subject historically. there is a majority populous around the world (especially in western countries) that strongly believe that lgbtq+ identities were made up in the 20th century and have only existed since then and that NOTHING in history determines the existence of any of these because of 'historical writings.' and real scientists, realistic thinking people know this isn't true, that we've always been here, have always existed and will continue to exist whether we're 'underground' or out in the open XD
I've actually started to make my own burial clothes. Growing flax this upcomming growing season to make a shift. Everything needs to be authenticly medieval so it's going to take several years. I only do it to hopefully confuse future scientists digging me up. They"ll eventually figure it out but I like the thought that IF a fragment of my clothes or other stuff survives into the future I'll mess with ppl 😁
I thought the bearded women would have been someone with PCOS, but I guess it would make sense that they would have been intersex with just how thick their beard would get.
Thank you for spreading awareness and information. It's amazing how much information can be found in places you might not think of looking at first, like the legal documents in this case. Also, I find it fascinating how different cultures have had different approaches to the same phenomenon. It tells a lot about how they observed and understood the surrounding world.
Just like the existence of laws against crossdressing means that at least some people probably _were_ crossdressing at that time/place, it's fascinating to talk about how societies with laws about what men are allowed to do vs what women are allowed to do, inevitably have to deal with the fact that *some people are not easily categorized* (whether because of genetics, genitals, secondary sex characteristics like breasts or beards, or other traits.)
It's worth mentioning that many (possibly most) intersex people identify as men or as women and do not wish to be classified as "something else." (For a more mainstream comparison, it would be very offensive (and untrue) to tell a woman who isn't able to give birth that that makes her "less of a woman" somehow.) Creating a third social category to assign to people who are "neither" wouldn't automatically ensure acceptance or fair treatment.
All intersex people deserve equality under the law, bodily autonomy and the ability to make informed medical decisions for themselves, respect for their gender identity (binary or otherwise), and all the other human rights everyone should be entitled to.
Thanks so much man, this helped me massively with my masters deegree
Well said and informative. Thank you for delving into this history. You are wonderful. You are definitely one of the cool people.Thanks for sharing.
I know use this video as eye bleach. Everytime I stumble on offensive content, I watch this to get faith in humanity back.
People have always been people, brains are weird, bodies are weird.
16:54 for people needing love.
This is the contect I'm here for, askign the serious and deep questions. What is bone?
This was super interesting, thank you for sharing! Just a small note, transsexual is typically considered not the proper term, the community at large uses transgender.
Did I use transsexual? I did! Oh bugger! I'm so sorry, I'd been reading older articles and it slipped by Editing Jimmy. I do apologise.
The term used in the Babylonian Talmud was from the Greek - Androgynos.
A gender neutral person was called Tumtum.