I also want to say that, most of the koopaling bosses have nothing to do with the level there in. For example, Larry's torpedo castle has zero torpedo based obstacles in the actual boss. Or, Roy's conveyer castle has conveyers in it, until the boss where Roy has a Bill blaster instead.
this is exaclty why i love the galaxy games' bosses and the odyssey world bosses so much they were the final test for their respective world's mechanic
I've always said that the Koopalings wouldn't be so ill recieved if they actually tried to make them interesting. They have cool designs and personalities, but the amount of time you have to hit them is criminal. It's why I mostly never have a problem with Ludwig. Not only does he always have the most interesting patterns, he is also allowed to actually show it off. I really like your ideas on both how the Koopalings can be more than just more colourful Boom Booms but also how we can have them and cool new bosses too.
It's so weird. I remember the days of the Mario HQ and Neglected Mario Characters fansites. Fans LONGED for the Koopalings...villains of two of the greatest platformers ever made, and almost entirely absent throughout the 64 and GameCube eras. The fact that general consensus on them has almost entirely reversed speaks to how lackluster their implementation has been.
I played the hell out of Wii as a kid and I literally the only 2 bosses I can remember specifically because of how unique they were were Iggy and Ludwig.
I think the real issue is that for many of these fights you aren't really "fighting" the boss, you're just waiting for them to finish their invincibility cycle so you can jump on them again. There is so much waiting in these fights.
LOL wut a dumb opinion! The boss is ment to be a hilight and major part of a castle/fourtress level, so some extra waiting time to drive hoem the in tents city and eksitement of the battle to make it really sink in is totaly war ant Ted, the bosses aren't meant to bee beet hen in a few seckinds like clockwork - which is the inner meckanisums insiide a clock which you are able to partake in conduction off of - but to enhants the ex spear he ants by pre-venting it from beeing over to soon.
No let’s just have bowser jr be our world bosses and have 0 mid bosses and the airships will have you pressing on a button, also some worlds won’t even have bosses🤷
Honestly I feel like Paper Mario Color Splash did a good job with the koopalings, they each were themed with the world they were in, (for example Larry riding a train and Ludwig’s Ludship) and they had different ways to fight them. I wonder how well that style would translate into a 2d Mario game.
It also helps that it was their debut Paper Mario appearance, so having the Koopalings there was ironically refreshing. Also, since it’s their only other appearance in a Mario RPG, they get to show off their personalities through their dialogue, which makes them more memorable.
@@WuhHuhThey’ve appeared in a few other RPGs, actually: Paper Jam, Superstar Saga (where they have dialog in the remake), and Bowser’s Inside Story + Bowser Jr’s Journey
I'm still wondering how they would behave in a 3d ambience (same as the broodals in a 2d ambience, I would love to see them in wonder) Nintendo should include the Koopalings in the next 3D Mario game
The Koopalings had a ton of potential for wonder, they all have unique personalities and some like Ludwig ca flutter jump I wouldn't have minded to have them in Wonder
also want to mention that all the koopalings are named after famous musicians, they would have fit in like a glove if they were given enough thought even if they're technically overused
Not only that but I'm sure they could use the unique features of the koopalings very well with the wonder effects ie. Iggy's hair turns into a palm, Wendy uses the rings to teleport or something
@@TheGoldenNick Yeah, the New Super Mario Bros games since Wii did had a ton of extra unique hazards for the koopalings And Paper Mario Color Splash added so much personality to them all So much missed potential now that they would have all this
no joke I was telling a friend about Bowser's palette swap brother yesterday. it's such a stupid and pointless piece of trivia that i kind of love it. Imagine being Bowser's brother, realizing you'll never be as cool as him.
@@TheLordTash that actually sounds cool, but I don’t think the devs would to try something like it, in fact, Nintendo isn’t even doing much effort to explore the past of their important characters, I don’t think they would touch it even with a 10 foot pole, but I hope they’ll prove me or other peaple with the same idea wrong, but at this point I don’t even know.
It’s funnier that Bowser’s brother was never supposed to exist, he was supposed be one of the fake bowsers in the first game, but he’s blue because he’s not near to the axe that makes the real Bowser green in the game
So Basically, Bowser’s Brother is just a bullshit explanation for why bowser is blue, which gets discarded in later versions of Lost Levels by making him green
It's repetition. Like in New Super Mario Bros DS, every Bowser Junior fight is basically the same with a slight difference. Oh no, the arena is _slippery,_ or it *moves.*
If there's one thing I wish Mario would borrow from Megaman, it's the approach to bosses. Even on the NES, Megaman games had bosses that were pretty intricate, interesting, and all distinct from one another. Their designs and gimmicks are intertwined with the stages they inhabit, giving them each a very strong sense of identity despite their relatively low screentime. I know these are two different series, but I've heard people say that the point platformers is to do platforming, but fight bosses, so why should it matter? But you definitely _can_ do bosses really well in a platforming game.
There are proper Nintendo games where Mario could borrow great part of their design; Kirby is a game that is mostly famous for the sheer amount of quality found on their boss fights, insteresting, varied. Of course it would be the incognite of if a Kirby Boss would work on a Mario playstile (Kirby has way more movility and resistance than Mario gameplay wise, after all) But a better example comes to mind, Donkey Kong Country R and TF bosses are... Incredible, not as intricate as Kirby ones, but fits the mold far better to Mario limitations compare to Kirbys, and it would lead to very memorable events. I also think that 3 hit boss fights are severely outdated nowadays, its get somewhat repetitive and handicaps all attacks bosses could potentially do, so those two examples seems like a good idea!
@@MishKoz like Cuphead Cuphead is very good for its bosses with their creativity and overall design which in turn adds to your previously mentioned strong sense of identity despite limited screentime
@@FloridusMan honestly that's very true, those bosses are extremely memorable and appealing. Though I'd argue Cuphead is more of a boss rush than a platformer like Mario lol
I mean Mega Man focuses way more on fighting enemies and finding enemy patterns than Mario does. I actually think the bosses in New Super Mario Bros DS is what they should build off of.
@@TyGuy2462 True. Wii U is also very good, where he slides into pipes to get on to the ceiling, shoot fire magic to summon a fire monster, drop from the ceiling for a """surprise""" attack to damage Mario, and his shell can slide left and right, and enter pipes.
Super Paper Mario, while not a mainline 2D game, probably has my favorite bosses from any 2D Mario. They’re easy, yes, but they’re all unique and fun. You do repeat fights sometimes, like O’Chunks and Mimi, but they’re typically midbosses and not the main boss of that chapter.
i agree, just about every boss fight in SPM makes it feel memorable. the worst example i can think of is chapter 6-2's fight against mimi because it's just fighting mimi again, but not only is the fight completely unique from her 2-4 fight, but it's also done with the context of her slowing you down to prevent you from stopping the end of that world.
2:50 technically half the Jr. fights are supposed to be a little different since he puts on his bandana for the latter half of the game, giving him enough braincells to hide in his shell if you try to jump on him. Even though it makes the intentional way of fighting him a little tricker and more unique, it doesn't mean much when it's not impossible to chain-combo him 3 times, and his behavior change doesn't even matter if you can fireball him to win in 2 seconds
I just wanna say love the editing here that you put in this video. It's so well-established and I could never stop myself from grinning at the little FNAF and low-quality picture gags 😂👌
tbh invincibility moments for the koopalings is a bandaid fix. They should always be vulnerable but take more hits, less stun between hits, no sliding around in the shell, but attacks that can intercept you in the air so it's risky to chain hit them.
Luigi's mansion 2 does the "koopaling" thing brilliantly with the professor ghosts. They possess or summon the actual boss and they only get attacked when the boss itself is vulnerable
could be like they capture luigi at some point in the story and begin mass producing robot clones of him for an air ship attack with at the very end the real luigi in a cyborg state and evil (like tails in sonic lost world if it actually worked)
2:11 One thing you forgot to mention is that in the NES version, Clawgrip (or Clawglip, depending on which you prefer) was added to the game because in Doki Doki Panic, that fight was originally a third battle with Mouser.
That’s true, and Robirdo replaced one of the Tryclyde fights in The GBA port. So In that version they’re all unique except for Mouser, who still appears twice.
I think the best way to make bosses account for all skill levels is to just allow for high risk plays to defeat the bosses quicker. Odyssey does this for some of its bosses and they’re the best. You can stomp on topper during his spin attack or when he’s sliding on the ground to end the phase early, but it requires you to put yourself in harms way. If you’re a skilled player, it’ll let you complete the boss faster and if you’re not, you can just wait the attack out and they’ll eventually reveal their weak point naturally.
I liked the boss ideas in Yoshi’s Island, they are all larger versions of regular enemies and feel uniquely different. Also the Fight with Bowser was great.
If you ever want to make the Koopalings bosses again, I feel like the best way for them to attack before the player does themselves is to make a Weak-Spot type boss. As in you either have to wait for the Koopaling to finish with their attack before you can do the same.
@@DaBaldEagul Yeah, waiting. Or for more depth, make the bosses weak to certain Power Ups (I can’t tell you what because this guy’s fan game wasn’t even announced yet)
Yoshi’s Island had the best bosses. It wasn’t just where the whole Giga-bowser and Kamek shenanigans started, but also the different way each boss had to be figured out, and the creepy designs of a lot of them. The Black Bird on the moon, The Koopa, Giant Baby Bowser… that game left me speechless when I first saw those bosses
I still can’t believe how unbelievably bad the bosses were in Wonder. Not only did they do the Koopalings again and reskinned them to all look the same but the also just straight up made two worlds not even have a boss to begin with. I audibly laughed only my first playthrough after playing two world without any final level in a row. Also really enjoying the editing in this one. Great video.
This was a very well-done video, props to you. I liked a lot of your suggestions (not being able to cheese Koopalings, having Koopalings only be mid-bosses, etc) and this was an overall fun look at the different approaches 2D Mario took to its boss designs (my favorite is still NSMB DS. I miss you, Mummipokey). I think another way to make the Koopaling fights more unique is to give them different attack patterns for when they retreat into their shells. Have Lemmy bounce around while in his shell, have Morton fly up and try to slam down onto Mario (like what Pop Pom does in 3D Land), have Wendy defy gravity and bounce around the arena like a DVD screensaver (also ties into how her rings function), and so on. It's not the biggest change but it would definitely go a long way in upping the uniqueness of these fights.
I’ll never forget the experience of reaching New Super Mario Bros Wii’s final boss of Bowser growing to the size of the screen and you being forced to platform away because nothing you can do will even scratch him. it was such an amazing memory, especially as such a young kid playing with my siblings. it holds a very dear place in my heart.
I think Mario Maker 2 shows, that changing the environment instead of the mechanics is another great way to improve boss fights. Some levels have amazing boss fights and even Nintendo themselves created some pretty unique ones in the SMM2-campaign. (Btw, I love your videos! Amazing editing, I can’t even imagine how time consuming it is to film and cut these❤)
Yeah, one thing I really don’t like is how most of these fights are taken place inside a small room with nothing in it. I think expanding the arena with more traps and enemies in them could fix the fights. So the player will have to get through all the obstacles before they can reach the boss. Or maybe have the arena be a normal level but have the boss in the background trying to sabotage the player from reaching the end. And the boss will sometimes step into the level and that’s when the player can hit them.
4:29 I get your point and I 100% agree. But don't tell me that 3D isn't the same. Your gonna tell me a slippy floor and "Oh but wait, there's 2 Now!" Is different. Come on man 😂
The reason Wonder’s bosses stand at as so bad is because Nintendo has been making really good bosses lately, and has been knocking it out of the park with their final bosses especially. Tears Of The Kingdom, Forgotten Land, even Splatoon 3 have all had incredible final battles, so the expectations for this were really high.
Monk Maz Koshia is still a better boss than Ganondorf. Fight me. Plus, Mucktorok and Queen Gibdo were frustrating too. I can’t say anything about the other games since I haven’t played those.
Here's my boss loadout: World 1-Tower: Larry World 1-Castle: New Boss World 2-Tower: Iggy World 2-Castle: New Boss World 3-Airship: Boom-Boom World 3-Tower: Wendy World 3-Castle: New Boss World 4-Tower: Roy World 4-Castle: New Boss World 5-Airship:Pom-Pom World 5-Tower: Lemmy(The theme would be a circus-forest theme) World 5-Castle: Petey Piranha(It fits with the world theme.) World 6-Tower: Morton World 6-Castle: New Boss World 7-Airship: Boom-Boom and Pom-Pom World 7-Tower: Ludwig World 7-Castle: New Boss World 8-Tower: Bowser Jr. World 8-Airship: All the Koopalings World 8-Dungeon(The level right before 8-Castle): Kamek World 8-Castle: Bowser World 9 Last Level: Boss Rush! Comments if there should be any changes.
@@marchu- Looking at it now, one change I would have made is to give World 8 two castles, similar to NSMB DS, though in this case Kamek is fought in the first castle and Bowser is fought in the second.
Larry is comic relief Lemmy loves bouncy castles Ludwig loves to fly Wendy loves circles Iggy is skinny and quick Morton is a chunky boi Roy is a bazooka sigma
In my experience, they seem to go all out for the final bosses but the smaller bosses get a worse treatment. Take NSMBW for example, where Bowser chases you frantically and you have to use his attacks to clear the way. I also think the FIRST Bowser Jr boss fight would have been perfectly fine if the other ones were unique. I can literally think of plenty of ideas off the top of my head. What if YOU became a goomba and some random goomba became whatever character you were playing? What if Kamek got the wonder flower and started to manipulate the world to previous locations is some crazy chase scene? What if you had to fight an increasing number of shadow Mario clones by leading them into beams of light?
I think I know how to add a boss to these worlds that don’t have a single boss in Mario Wonder. For Shining Falls (W3), I think that they could still keep that scene of Master Poplin giving the Royal Seed to Mario, and it actually should collect it before the boss fight, but Bowser Jr (or maybe another guy) steals it from Mario (kinda like the final fight in Yoshi’s Crafted World) and one gives it back after the fight. It could be the same thing for Fungi Mines (W5), but it could feel repetitive. Instead, I propose that the “miner” Poplins mine a key for the palace that Bowser Jr (or ya know, maybe another guy) accidentally lost, so now Mario is able to use it to enter the palace and defeat the boss. Hope ya like it!
This is why DK is more liked by the fans when it comes to bosses, while the first Country game had repeated bosses, the rest have unique boss fights minus the ghost Necky from Country 2, even Kirby has unique fights despite each one having a version of Whispy Woods
Each one also has a version of Dedede, who was the final boss of the original kirby game. Those who made the kirby franchise knew to not have the same main villain every single damn time. They should have treated bowser like Dedede, I don't mind a recurring boss in each game but I most certainly DO mind the same damn character as the final boss in each game. It made me stop buying mario games it got so damn boring.
Honestly I would love more bosses that are just the enemies but bigger/stronger. Giant Goomba functions similarly to a normal Goomba, but now you actually have to think about how to get all the way on top of his head. Something similar could work for a giant Koopa Troopa, or a giant Hammer Bro. Heck, they could even do something with newer enemies, like a giant Outmaway that you have to approach while it kicks blocks at you
I'm so glad you're the only person that who gives the full story regarding New Super Mario DS boss battles. The castle fights are creative, sure, but absolutely everyone forgets about the horrid Bowser Jr. fights in the towers, which are honestly worse than the Koopaling fights. They're so mindless: You just use a fire flower at him for a couple of times, and you're done right then and there.
Not to mention when you stomp him he does hide in his shell, but get this *The shell doesn't even spin, it doesn't even move at all or last a decent interval*
The only boss that repeats in Odyssey in a bad way is Spewart. He barely changes at all between fights and it makes me sad. They should have made him spit out lava for his Luncheon fight
13:36 What's baffling to me is that Kamek IS in the game. He serves as a pretty unique boss in NSMBWii and NSMBU because you can't combo him. Why they just don't use him as a boss in Wonder is honestly incomprehensible to me.
You actually hit the nail with the hammer with that "Wonders boss lineup is just DS' villain bosses without the world bosses". All of Bowser Jr. fights in Wonder are honestly pretty decent if you're comparing it to the previous game's mid-world bosses, but because he's the ACTUAL boss of the worlds, it feels underwhelming. And on top of that, it would have been really easy to just give these worlds the NSMB treatment. We got all these new enemies, many of which are WORLD SPECIFIC, and all these Wonder effects and we SEE them combined for some of the levels. We literally get King Boo as a Wonder effect to basically be just a glorified autoscroll wall, so why they didn't just go all out on this for the bosses is beyond me. Also kinda unrelated, but they really should have had Kamek, who SPAWNS the airship, as the actual BOSS of the airships, because it's kinda a problem when there's a genuine question if the machine we get at the end counts as a boss or not
I thought of a cool idea for the bosses of a 2d Mario game, in this game you would go through the basic Mario world, but the order would be far different than the usual order you go through and in them, you would fight a mid boss and a final boss, the mid boss would be a returning original boss, and then the final boss of each world would be the couplings, but the main theme of this game would make the couplings a little more interesting along with the original bosses, the boss and coupling of that world would be given elemental powers based off the world they are in and this would affect the mid boss by giving them some elemental attacks and making them not as easy to stun lock, but the couplings would be given a very big upgrade in this because in their fights, they are essentially split up into three phases per hit, each time you hit them they will do a new strategy that will involve using the element power they have and changing the environment around you in order to make it harder for you to hit them and after you hit them, they will go into the shell, but use their element power too make shell spin a lot more instead of just going from left right they would all have different variations of spinning around, the order of the worlds and bosses would be. W1🏝️ Unagi, water Ludwig W2🌳 Petey, plant Iggy W3🌋 Reznor, fire Roy W4🌩️ Lakithunder, lightning Lemmy W5🏜️ Mummy pokey, Wind Wendy W6☃️ Chief Chilly, ice Larry W7⛰️King Bob omb, Rock Morton W8🪐Kamek, Cosmic Bowser
ACTUALLY, I've discovered that you don't actually need the clown car to fight Bowser Jr. As long as you have a Propeller Mushroom when you reach the boss, you can actually jump on him. Once you enter the clown car, you're locked in it, and then Jr., to avoid getting stomped on, will duck when you get too close to him.
Your boss roster prescription is right on the money I think. It's fine to have an enemy squad with common motifs like the koopalings or broodals but supplemented with unique world bosses.
Putting the games into a tier list(based on how good their bosses are): SMB1/Lost Levels: C- These are the first two games, so they get a pass, but they still aren't good. SMB2: C+ Bosses are unique in design and attacks, but points are lost for Birdo repetition SMB3: C Similar case with the first three games, fortress bosses repeat, Koopalings are different but feel the same, Bowser carries SMW: A The Koopalings have different attacks compared to SMB3, Reznor repeats but the secret exists needed to get to each fortress make up for it, Big Boo as a boss is a neat idea, wish he was in more games, Bowser boss music is cool SML: C- Bosses are unique, but they're too easy SML2: B- Bosses are more unique, but still nothing special NSMB(DS): A Bosses are all different and cool, the only reason it's not 'S' is because the final boss is mid, at least the theme is cool, Bowser Jr repeating is fine because of what Nintendo was trying to do at the time NSMBWii: B+ Tower bosses in Worlds 1-7 are mid, Bowser fight is one of the best in the Mario series NSMB2: B Tower bosses repeat, Koopaling fights are mid, the Bowser and Dry Bowser fights carry NSMBU/NSLU: B+ Boom Boom fights are very mid, best Koopaling fights, Bowser Jr has cool boss fights, this Bowser is my favorite mostly for the theme SMB Wonder: A+ Bowser Jr might repeat, but he's different enough for me to like, the only reason this isn't 'S' tier is because I wish there were more bosses
Obviously this list (and the video) are focused on 2D Mario, but how do you feel about 3D Mario game's bosses as far as a graded ranking? I'd probably put most of them at A or higher, with a few like 3D Land being lower for repetition.
I think the "not *_enough_* bosses" problem of Mario Wonder, can be pointed to as a factor in making a game feel full in general. Even in NSMBU where you had two bosses per world and 3-4 more put in very specific positions, that's still less than 20 bosses. A JRPG can oftentimes have 30-50 and each of those fights is *_longer_* than a simple three-stomp cycle. There's really no harm in just increasing the number of fights. But you still need to have more variation to give them a point. I say that an eight-world format could use similar theming rules to your suggestion. You could use 2-4 of these four boss domains per world, in any order and quantity depending on the world: 1. Checkpoint keep. This is a tower, fortress, outpost, etc. used by a boss-class enemy that isn't a single character necessarily, such as Birdo, Boom Boom, Reznor, Big Boo, Undergrunt Gunner... 2. Koopalings' personal airships. Full airship level, with the respective Koopaling as the boss. Each is still themed to the world it's in, but much more subtly, such as being fitted with equipment used to perform standard tasks related to the world before Mario got there. 3. Themed dungeon. Each with unique map model, such as a temple, giant tree, stadium, flaming ruins, a colossus. The boss would match the dungeon theme and tie into the world-contained story arc, such as Knucklotec guarding the ring. 4. Stronghold/Key strategic position. A castle, command center, naval base, mine and refinery, a factory, etc. The boss here has something to do with the world arc directly, and the level and boss can be themed after the world plot, rather than the world itself - King Bob-Omb, Petey Piranha, Kamek, Chief Chilly, those ones. The bosses don't need to *_strictly_* adhere to the type of domain, even if they still fit the theme. You could have an early-game stronghold boss be a checkpoint keep boss later, such as the non-individual boss-class enemies Boom Boom and Reznor, or the make-it-bigger-and-stronger regular enemies Goomba, Sumo Bro and Chain Chomp. The world's Koopaling may abandon ship and leave you with a boss they set upon Mario, before taking off to be the dungeon boss instead. You may have a recurring boss who changes how they fight, and can be put in any level category, such as Bowser Jr, or Kamek. Any other boss that has a rematch, can get extra things in the fight, like fighting two Boom Booms, or Kamek hangs out in the background while you try to fight an Undergrunt Gunner. Finally, make direct plot links between the bosses. If the stronghold comes before the dungeon boss, maybe have the commander in a video call with Bowser about the progress of their operation, then later, the dungeon boss thinks you're the invading force it was warned about. If you put the Koopaling airship between the dungeon and checkpoint, then said Koopaling may have tracked Mario down to slow his approach to the objective. If there's another faction in the plot, have them explain why they're at this level, or a little detail about the boss they're summoning if they're not it - such as finding Princess Shroob at a flash-freezing facility where you navigate over liquid nitrogen instead of lava, and she frees a Shrooboid. There are so many ways to make 2D platforming work in a way where the bosses are fun, and there's an actual story. It really isn't hard.
The Bowser fight in New Super Mario Bros wii was the best boss fight in Mario history. The dramatic music, the shaking of the camera, and the adrenaline you get when he jumps closer. I want another boss that isnt too dofficult but also very stressful when its the first time. I also think that fight after the classic Bowser fight minutes before it was a letter from Nintendo saying "ok, lets upgrade"
I also think it'd be cool if some 2D Mario bosses took the Galaxy approach of being designed around specific power-ups, like one that need the propeller hat or one in which the blue shell power makes things easier. Helps adds complexity to run, wait and jump on head
The trouble with that approach is the way power-ups work in the 2D games. Requiring you to use something that you can lose if you get hit once either means you have to be perfect, or the game has to feed you more power-ups (which feels kind of...inelegant? Like you can't lose...it may just take longer to win).
I think wonder could have gotten away with Bowser Jr being every boss if the wonder effects actually made him transform into something different each time, kind of like how mario and co transforms in some levels
Tropical Freeze has peak 2D platformer boss design. Unfortunately, I don't think Nintendo has it in them to give 2D Mario challenging bosses that take multiple attempts to learn and execute (lack of platforming challenge was Wonder's main flaw, imo). Best we can hope for are unique designs.
I think for the next Mario game they should do what Mario odyssey did and let you move your camera freely while The boss just moved around making unpredictable moves. I don’t know how they could do it in 2D but if they can, it would probably be really fun.
What is my reason to move freely you ask? (it’s because I want to break the 4th wall) but also like Mario odyssey when you were able to move freely you were able to have more room in the Bossfight if you were able to go backwards (and besides 2D games are already easy why not make it easier?)
The problem with being able to basically stun lock the koopalings made me appreciate Iggy’s fights more cause he almost solves that problem, not a complete fix but he can sometimes be hard to hit. In Wii it’s really dependent on the Chain Chomp position but also it’s a unique take on their shell states so that’s a bonus. Nsmb2 is kinda similar but I found it a bit easier. Wii U had the possible chance of him booking it back into the pipe cause of how he constantly goes through the pipes on the sides in his shell state, he could possibly pop out when you’re not near him
I just realised I was the first one to view this 😂😂. Love the video :) also a really simple way of making these bosses more engaging is maybe restricting powerups (or have a specific power up) and more hitpoints
5:02 I now get this, its because the wings complement the blocks really well, actually making the boss fight way less cheasable then becoming intersting but removing the wings just removed that option.
I got some ideas for how the koopalings could've worked with the wonder gimmicks. W1: Larry (Shifting ground) Larry fights largely the same as in the New Super Mario Bros games, jumping and occasionally shooting magic from his wand. His 2nd phase shrinks the arena by removing the floor from the corners of the room. Lastly, Larry's 3rd phase would basically just be his Castle fight in Wii. W2: Wendy (Various ring attributes) Wendy has skates similar to Mario U, and still uses bouncing rings. However, in her 2nd phase, the fight changes a lot when the rings become icy, gaining the ability to freeze parts of the floor when they touch it, resulting in ice physics (Wendy is immune, for she has ice skates). The rings also become larger. Things only get crazier in her 3rd phase, as Wendy's rings transform into Condarts upon touching the ceiling, and charge down whenever Mario goes under them. W3: Roy (Movement methods) Roy starts off with a simple ground pound and magic attack, plus the pipe movement from Mario Wii, but things become intense after he takes damage. In phase 2, he can jump incredibly high, similar to a Hoppycat, and his head becomes spiked. The only way to damage him is after he does the Hoppycat jump while on the ceiling, after which Roy bumps his head on the floor, exposing his belly to be jumped on. Finally, phase 3 turns the walls of the arena into giant bill blasters that Roy himself can enter, catapulting him horizontally. However, he loses the hoppycat jump and armor. Periodically, bullet bills can spawn. I'll figure out the rest at a later date.
Unironically just dont kill the koopalings as soon as they come out the shell spin and the fight gets way better. Sure, its not efficient, but who cares it feels so much cooler and fun to actually let them do something instead of insta killing them. NSMBU has some great fights if you just... let iggy back on to the roof, or morton get a pokey up, or ludwig jump up. Should you have to do this on purpose? Obviously no, but its so much more fun and engaging if you do!
The fact that you can quickly hit the boss again is ment to be a reward for skillful play. I think they should keep this feature but make the timing A LOT harder.
One of the BEST "boss fights" in MM2 i had ever gotten to enjoy (watching) was a very well built level fully themed around a Ghost Ship using Dry Fish where they can fully "swim" and unfortunately if you hit the POW's too fast the level breaks.
12:44 this is exactly that I thought, when I played NSBM first time. I was like "nice Koopalings return after all these years and even in 3D." And then... Larry jumped over to the next castle and I was like "wait, the are the only Bosses and I ahve to fight them two times each?" Edit: to improve the bosses? Please ! remove the shell-phase! It is overdone. I can't take it anymore, jumping 5-10 seconds over and over again over a spikey shell. I got it, we can do that, it is a very basic dodge, and it is repeated over the NEW Series over and over again, even in Mario Maker it appears.
The bosses of a platforming game should not be just thematically fitting, but also gameplay fitting. Imagine if you're playing a turn-based RPG and the boss battle in each dungeon is a rhythm minigame, that's how most of the Super Mario bosses feel like. If a world introduces the gimmick of falling platforms and is used throughout the levels, then the boss should include an arena of falling platforms; that simple design choice is enough to make the bosses feel memorable and rewarding to beat.
I just wish Bowser Jr. would use his paint brush more. Like imagine he could paint all sorts of different magical goop to make things harder for you. Maybe as an attack if you stand too close he could even swipe at you with it. It’s a tool with limitless possibilities for boss attacks that goes criminally underused.
In SB3, when you fight the miniboss at the end, it is always after a tough ship. So it is good that they are similar and you can get used to fighting them. I always enjoyed it in my playthrough.
I also want to say that, most of the koopaling bosses have nothing to do with the level there in. For example, Larry's torpedo castle has zero torpedo based obstacles in the actual boss. Or, Roy's conveyer castle has conveyers in it, until the boss where Roy has a Bill blaster instead.
That’s definitely a good point! I don’t necessarily think they HAVE to but it would definitely make the bosses more fitting
Tbf they prolly didnt add torpedos cos the bowser jr fight has them and its literally at the next level
this is exaclty why i love the galaxy games' bosses and the odyssey world bosses so much
they were the final test for their respective world's mechanic
Mario is the goat of games the only bat man game that is better than any mario one is Lego batman the videogame
@@jaybentley8369 Do you think the first one is the best? I really liked Lego Batman 3
I've always said that the Koopalings wouldn't be so ill recieved if they actually tried to make them interesting. They have cool designs and personalities, but the amount of time you have to hit them is criminal. It's why I mostly never have a problem with Ludwig. Not only does he always have the most interesting patterns, he is also allowed to actually show it off. I really like your ideas on both how the Koopalings can be more than just more colourful Boom Booms but also how we can have them and cool new bosses too.
It's so weird. I remember the days of the Mario HQ and Neglected Mario Characters fansites. Fans LONGED for the Koopalings...villains of two of the greatest platformers ever made, and almost entirely absent throughout the 64 and GameCube eras. The fact that general consensus on them has almost entirely reversed speaks to how lackluster their implementation has been.
To be honest. I sometimes feel like they’re making their fights bad on purpose. Like, these fights can easily be fixed with common sense.
I played the hell out of Wii as a kid and I literally the only 2 bosses I can remember specifically because of how unique they were were Iggy and Ludwig.
I think the real issue is that for many of these fights you aren't really "fighting" the boss, you're just waiting for them to finish their invincibility cycle so you can jump on them again. There is so much waiting in these fights.
And just trying to jump over them is not enough, it's pretty much baby's challenge.
@@lexcentrique2554and spin jumping usually removes that challenge if you spam ZR
LOL wut a dumb opinion! The boss is ment to be a hilight and major part of a castle/fourtress level, so some extra waiting time to drive hoem the in tents city and eksitement of the battle to make it really sink in is totaly war ant Ted, the bosses aren't meant to bee beet hen in a few seckinds like clockwork - which is the inner meckanisums insiide a clock which you are able to partake in conduction off of - but to enhants the ex spear he ants by pre-venting it from beeing over to soon.
@@IRsBlueManMoney-Channelare you ok?
@@snewp_e2139 me hopes so x3
Use the Koopalings for the mid points, Bowser Jr for airships and unique world bosses = recipe for a successful experience
Also banish the broodals because they suck
No let’s just have bowser jr be our world bosses and have 0 mid bosses and the airships will have you pressing on a button, also some worlds won’t even have bosses🤷
@@CharcoaledmarmaladeThat’s what Mario Wonder did already!
And Bowser as the final boss of the game
@@markitoyoutuber I think that's the jo-
Honestly I feel like Paper Mario Color Splash did a good job with the koopalings, they each were themed with the world they were in, (for example Larry riding a train and Ludwig’s Ludship) and they had different ways to fight them. I wonder how well that style would translate into a 2d Mario game.
It also helps that it was their debut Paper Mario appearance, so having the Koopalings there was ironically refreshing. Also, since it’s their only other appearance in a Mario RPG, they get to show off their personalities through their dialogue, which makes them more memorable.
@@WuhHuhThey’ve appeared in a few other RPGs, actually: Paper Jam, Superstar Saga (where they have dialog in the remake), and Bowser’s Inside Story + Bowser Jr’s Journey
I'm still wondering how they would behave in a 3d ambience (same as the broodals in a 2d ambience, I would love to see them in wonder) Nintendo should include the Koopalings in the next 3D Mario game
MORTON ON PEDAL STOOL!
@@WuhHuh I don't even consider Color Splash a RPG. It's more of an action-adventure game with a turn based battle system.
The Koopalings had a ton of potential for wonder, they all have unique personalities and some like Ludwig ca flutter jump
I wouldn't have minded to have them in Wonder
also want to mention that all the koopalings are named after famous musicians, they would have fit in like a glove if they were given enough thought even if they're technically overused
The one time they could’ve been really unique with them they only use Bowser Jr…
@@redactedinfo8557Who the fuck are Lemmy and Iggy named after?
Not only that but I'm sure they could use the unique features of the koopalings very well with the wonder effects ie. Iggy's hair turns into a palm, Wendy uses the rings to teleport or something
@@TheGoldenNick
Yeah, the New Super Mario Bros games since Wii did had a ton of extra unique hazards for the koopalings
And Paper Mario Color Splash added so much personality to them all
So much missed potential now that they would have all this
no joke I was telling a friend about Bowser's palette swap brother yesterday. it's such a stupid and pointless piece of trivia that i kind of love it.
Imagine being Bowser's brother, realizing you'll never be as cool as him.
Maybe his brother is the strategical mastermind while bowser does all the fighting.
It's my headcanon that he died back in the NES era and became Dry Bowser. (the other Dry Bowser, not the one who's actually just dead Bowser)
@@TheLordTash that actually sounds cool, but I don’t think the devs would to try something like it, in fact, Nintendo isn’t even doing much effort to explore the past of their important characters, I don’t think they would touch it even with a 10 foot pole, but I hope they’ll prove me or other peaple with the same idea wrong, but at this point I don’t even know.
It’s funnier that Bowser’s brother was never supposed to exist, he was supposed be one of the fake bowsers in the first game, but he’s blue because he’s not near to the axe that makes the real Bowser green in the game
So Basically, Bowser’s Brother is just a bullshit explanation for why bowser is blue, which gets discarded in later versions of Lost Levels by making him green
It's repetition. Like in New Super Mario Bros DS, every Bowser Junior fight is basically the same with a slight difference. Oh no, the arena is _slippery,_ or it *moves.*
Are you talking about Wonder?
@@awesomeone2779 I said New Super Mario Bros DS, not Wonder.
@@Bryce_the_Woomy_Boi my bad, I'm kinda stupid lol
@@awesomeone2779 it's alright.
Oh god it moves that makes it impossible
If there's one thing I wish Mario would borrow from Megaman, it's the approach to bosses. Even on the NES, Megaman games had bosses that were pretty intricate, interesting, and all distinct from one another. Their designs and gimmicks are intertwined with the stages they inhabit, giving them each a very strong sense of identity despite their relatively low screentime.
I know these are two different series, but I've heard people say that the point platformers is to do platforming, but fight bosses, so why should it matter? But you definitely _can_ do bosses really well in a platforming game.
There are proper Nintendo games where Mario could borrow great part of their design;
Kirby is a game that is mostly famous for the sheer amount of quality found on their boss fights, insteresting, varied. Of course it would be the incognite of if a Kirby Boss would work on a Mario playstile (Kirby has way more movility and resistance than Mario gameplay wise, after all)
But a better example comes to mind, Donkey Kong Country R and TF bosses are... Incredible, not as intricate as Kirby ones, but fits the mold far better to Mario limitations compare to Kirbys, and it would lead to very memorable events.
I also think that 3 hit boss fights are severely outdated nowadays, its get somewhat repetitive and handicaps all attacks bosses could potentially do, so those two examples seems like a good idea!
@@JoseViktor4099
Yeah that's true, there are a lot of 2D games with great bosses. Megaman was just the first series that came to mind
@@MishKoz like Cuphead
Cuphead is very good for its bosses with their creativity and overall design which in turn adds to your previously mentioned strong sense of identity despite limited screentime
@@FloridusMan honestly that's very true, those bosses are extremely memorable and appealing. Though I'd argue Cuphead is more of a boss rush than a platformer like Mario lol
I mean Mega Man focuses way more on fighting enemies and finding enemy patterns than Mario does. I actually think the bosses in New Super Mario Bros DS is what they should build off of.
Idk man, iggy fight #4 is pretty epic
You joke, but his 4th fight in the series is the Chain Chomp one from NSMBWii which is actually a pretty memorable fight with a unique gimmick
@@TyGuy2462 it isn't a joke...
@@TyGuy2462 True. Wii U is also very good, where he slides into pipes to get on to the ceiling, shoot fire magic to summon a fire monster, drop from the ceiling for a """surprise""" attack to damage Mario, and his shell can slide left and right, and enter pipes.
@@Xenorvya Yeah! I like that one too
Super Paper Mario, while not a mainline 2D game, probably has my favorite bosses from any 2D Mario. They’re easy, yes, but they’re all unique and fun. You do repeat fights sometimes, like O’Chunks and Mimi, but they’re typically midbosses and not the main boss of that chapter.
i agree, just about every boss fight in SPM makes it feel memorable. the worst example i can think of is chapter 6-2's fight against mimi because it's just fighting mimi again, but not only is the fight completely unique from her 2-4 fight, but it's also done with the context of her slowing you down to prevent you from stopping the end of that world.
The biggest problem is No Batman :(
Ong ✊️ 😔
I guess you can say there is NOT something in my way.... (mmmmmmmmhmmm)
Sad
Is he stupid?
Don't you mean theres no Man?
2:50 technically half the Jr. fights are supposed to be a little different since he puts on his bandana for the latter half of the game, giving him enough braincells to hide in his shell if you try to jump on him. Even though it makes the intentional way of fighting him a little tricker and more unique, it doesn't mean much when it's not impossible to chain-combo him 3 times, and his behavior change doesn't even matter if you can fireball him to win in 2 seconds
You can ground pound him to get it to two hits.
WHY IS COOL BOWSER NOT AN OFFICIAL BOSS FIGHT COME ON NINTENDO
FOR REALLL
Yeahhhhhhh@@RoshiBro08
He already is. Bowser is always cool
@@dasupamario5588 amen
I just wanna say love the editing here that you put in this video. It's so well-established and I could never stop myself from grinning at the little FNAF and low-quality picture gags 😂👌
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👌👌👌👌👌👌👌👌
This man did not just insult the magnum opus that is Boom Boom fight #14
i prefer #7, but yeah, i hate this guy. i unsubscribed because he hated on #14…
tbh invincibility moments for the koopalings is a bandaid fix. They should always be vulnerable but take more hits, less stun between hits, no sliding around in the shell, but attacks that can intercept you in the air so it's risky to chain hit them.
Replace all bosses with boom boom. Problem solved
And make it so every new room recieves/takes away one block in the arena, the world is solved
Pom Pom would me better
mission failed succesfully
Final boss is super boom boom who is 3.72% bigger
Luigi's mansion 2 does the "koopaling" thing brilliantly with the professor ghosts.
They possess or summon the actual boss and they only get attacked when the boss itself is vulnerable
4:20 (nice) Dont worry, Odyssey! We're ok with multiple cool bowser references per video!
They need to have a mario vs Luigi boss fight where it’s like a computer of a second player going against you
They did that in Bowser’s fury
@@cosmicspacething3474they did?
@@cosmicspacething3474what?
@@cosmicspacething3474no they did not.. you’re talking about 2 player mode which is not the same
could be like they capture luigi at some point in the story and begin mass producing robot clones of him for an air ship attack with at the very end the real luigi in a cyborg state and evil (like tails in sonic lost world if it actually worked)
Wonder not imitating Yoshi's Island bosses (ie, regular enemy supe'd up on Kamek's magic) was a *HUGE* missed opportunity.
2:11 One thing you forgot to mention is that in the NES version, Clawgrip (or Clawglip, depending on which you prefer) was added to the game because in Doki Doki Panic, that fight was originally a third battle with Mouser.
That’s true, and Robirdo replaced one of the Tryclyde fights in The GBA port. So In that version they’re all unique except for Mouser, who still appears twice.
I think the best way to make bosses account for all skill levels is to just allow for high risk plays to defeat the bosses quicker.
Odyssey does this for some of its bosses and they’re the best. You can stomp on topper during his spin attack or when he’s sliding on the ground to end the phase early, but it requires you to put yourself in harms way. If you’re a skilled player, it’ll let you complete the boss faster and if you’re not, you can just wait the attack out and they’ll eventually reveal their weak point naturally.
I liked the boss ideas in Yoshi’s Island, they are all larger versions of regular enemies and feel uniquely different. Also the Fight with Bowser was great.
as a developer who is working on a 2D mario fangame, I can confirm this information is true
If you ever want to make the Koopalings bosses again, I feel like the best way for them to attack before the player does themselves is to make a Weak-Spot type boss.
As in you either have to wait for the Koopaling to finish with their attack before you can do the same.
@@ColinJoesseppiVEVO either you wait, orr..? There's no 2nd option in your comment after that
@@DaBaldEagul
Yeah, waiting.
Or for more depth, make the bosses weak to certain Power Ups (I can’t tell you what because this guy’s fan game wasn’t even announced yet)
0:06 That aged well cuz its finally here!
6 likes and no replies
@@firecreeper928 More like 1 reply since you replied.
...Or make that 2 since I replied.
The Koopalings are the embodiment of “Unfortunately, it seems this is the best we can do.”
Yoshi’s Island had the best bosses. It wasn’t just where the whole Giga-bowser and Kamek shenanigans started, but also the different way each boss had to be figured out, and the creepy designs of a lot of them. The Black Bird on the moon, The Koopa, Giant Baby Bowser… that game left me speechless when I first saw those bosses
Amazing watch I had there. I love the style you chose for the "and then there is that" - moments. Made me burst out in laughter tbh
"you can just hit them before they get to attack" meanwhile, Spewart:
He is talking about the 2d bosses not the 3d ones
He said that 3D bosses are better than 2D@@French_Fries9
‘I hope they add Rango in the next mario kart game.‘’ what a legend
The Broodals suck
I still can’t believe how unbelievably bad the bosses were in Wonder. Not only did they do the Koopalings again and reskinned them to all look the same but the also just straight up made two worlds not even have a boss to begin with. I audibly laughed only my first playthrough after playing two world without any final level in a row.
Also really enjoying the editing in this one. Great video.
Bro consumed too many Wonder Flowers
I liked that 2 worlds didn't have a boss, it saved me from being annoyed at Bowser Jr two extra times
This was a very well-done video, props to you. I liked a lot of your suggestions (not being able to cheese Koopalings, having Koopalings only be mid-bosses, etc) and this was an overall fun look at the different approaches 2D Mario took to its boss designs (my favorite is still NSMB DS. I miss you, Mummipokey).
I think another way to make the Koopaling fights more unique is to give them different attack patterns for when they retreat into their shells. Have Lemmy bounce around while in his shell, have Morton fly up and try to slam down onto Mario (like what Pop Pom does in 3D Land), have Wendy defy gravity and bounce around the arena like a DVD screensaver (also ties into how her rings function), and so on. It's not the biggest change but it would definitely go a long way in upping the uniqueness of these fights.
Also a reminder that Kamek appears in Wonder but you never fight him. Imagine a Wonder Kamek battle with his magic being amplified.
I’ll never forget the experience of reaching New Super Mario Bros Wii’s final boss of Bowser growing to the size of the screen and you being forced to platform away because nothing you can do will even scratch him. it was such an amazing memory, especially as such a young kid playing with my siblings. it holds a very dear place in my heart.
I think Mario Maker 2 shows, that changing the environment instead of the mechanics is another great way to improve boss fights. Some levels have amazing boss fights and even Nintendo themselves created some pretty unique ones in the SMM2-campaign. (Btw, I love your videos! Amazing editing, I can’t even imagine how time consuming it is to film and cut these❤)
Yeah, one thing I really don’t like is how most of these fights are taken place inside a small room with nothing in it. I think expanding the arena with more traps and enemies in them could fix the fights. So the player will have to get through all the obstacles before they can reach the boss. Or maybe have the arena be a normal level but have the boss in the background trying to sabotage the player from reaching the end. And the boss will sometimes step into the level and that’s when the player can hit them.
"You can only burn people's houses down so many times before it gets boring." -Odyssey Central 2024
Odyssey's refusal to ever say Mollusque Lanceur's name always gets me
We don't talking about him
4:29 I get your point and I 100% agree. But don't tell me that 3D isn't the same. Your gonna tell me a slippy floor and "Oh but wait, there's 2 Now!" Is different. Come on man 😂
1:25 Bowser is indeed very cool.
The reason Wonder’s bosses stand at as so bad is because Nintendo has been making really good bosses lately, and has been knocking it out of the park with their final bosses especially. Tears Of The Kingdom, Forgotten Land, even Splatoon 3 have all had incredible final battles, so the expectations for this were really high.
Monk Maz Koshia is still a better boss than Ganondorf. Fight me.
Plus, Mucktorok and Queen Gibdo were frustrating too. I can’t say anything about the other games since I haven’t played those.
Here's my boss loadout:
World 1-Tower: Larry
World 1-Castle: New Boss
World 2-Tower: Iggy
World 2-Castle: New Boss
World 3-Airship: Boom-Boom
World 3-Tower: Wendy
World 3-Castle: New Boss
World 4-Tower: Roy
World 4-Castle: New Boss
World 5-Airship:Pom-Pom
World 5-Tower: Lemmy(The theme would be a circus-forest theme)
World 5-Castle: Petey Piranha(It fits with the world theme.)
World 6-Tower: Morton
World 6-Castle: New Boss
World 7-Airship: Boom-Boom and Pom-Pom
World 7-Tower: Ludwig
World 7-Castle: New Boss
World 8-Tower: Bowser Jr.
World 8-Airship: All the Koopalings
World 8-Dungeon(The level right before 8-Castle): Kamek
World 8-Castle: Bowser
World 9 Last Level: Boss Rush!
Comments if there should be any changes.
...I take it you're not a fan of Bowser Jr?
@@benhuang2773 Oops I forgot about him Let me edit it and put it there.
@@marchu- Looking at it now, one change I would have made is to give World 8 two castles, similar to NSMB DS, though in this case Kamek is fought in the first castle and Bowser is fought in the second.
I would like to see Dry Bowser again.
Larry is comic relief
Lemmy loves bouncy castles
Ludwig loves to fly
Wendy loves circles
Iggy is skinny and quick
Morton is a chunky boi
Roy is a bazooka sigma
In my experience, they seem to go all out for the final bosses but the smaller bosses get a worse treatment. Take NSMBW for example, where Bowser chases you frantically and you have to use his attacks to clear the way. I also think the FIRST Bowser Jr boss fight would have been perfectly fine if the other ones were unique. I can literally think of plenty of ideas off the top of my head. What if YOU became a goomba and some random goomba became whatever character you were playing? What if Kamek got the wonder flower and started to manipulate the world to previous locations is some crazy chase scene? What if you had to fight an increasing number of shadow Mario clones by leading them into beams of light?
I think I know how to add a boss to these worlds that don’t have a single boss in Mario Wonder.
For Shining Falls (W3), I think that they could still keep that scene of Master Poplin giving the Royal Seed to Mario, and it actually should collect it before the boss fight, but Bowser Jr (or maybe another guy) steals it from Mario (kinda like the final fight in Yoshi’s Crafted World) and one gives it back after the fight.
It could be the same thing for Fungi Mines (W5), but it could feel repetitive. Instead, I propose that the “miner” Poplins mine a key for the palace that Bowser Jr (or ya know, maybe another guy) accidentally lost, so now Mario is able to use it to enter the palace and defeat the boss.
Hope ya like it!
As a kamek fan, I was so sad when he was only in cutscenes
This is why DK is more liked by the fans when it comes to bosses, while the first Country game had repeated bosses, the rest have unique boss fights minus the ghost Necky from Country 2, even Kirby has unique fights despite each one having a version of Whispy Woods
Each one also has a version of Dedede, who was the final boss of the original kirby game. Those who made the kirby franchise knew to not have the same main villain every single damn time. They should have treated bowser like Dedede, I don't mind a recurring boss in each game but I most certainly DO mind the same damn character as the final boss in each game. It made me stop buying mario games it got so damn boring.
I feel like 2D Mario Bosses peaked in the first New Super Mario Bros game. It was such a great variety.
Nintendo will never learn their lesson....
14:52 I love it becomes sad and then becomes joyful with that background music
Honestly I would love more bosses that are just the enemies but bigger/stronger. Giant Goomba functions similarly to a normal Goomba, but now you actually have to think about how to get all the way on top of his head. Something similar could work for a giant Koopa Troopa, or a giant Hammer Bro. Heck, they could even do something with newer enemies, like a giant Outmaway that you have to approach while it kicks blocks at you
It's why most 2D Mario games WISH they had bosses as good as Yoshi's Island!
I'm so glad you're the only person that who gives the full story regarding New Super Mario DS boss battles. The castle fights are creative, sure, but absolutely everyone forgets about the horrid Bowser Jr. fights in the towers, which are honestly worse than the Koopaling fights. They're so mindless: You just use a fire flower at him for a couple of times, and you're done right then and there.
Not to mention when you stomp him he does hide in his shell, but get this *The shell doesn't even spin, it doesn't even move at all or last a decent interval*
The only boss that repeats in Odyssey in a bad way is Spewart. He barely changes at all between fights and it makes me sad. They should have made him spit out lava for his Luncheon fight
13:36 What's baffling to me is that Kamek IS in the game. He serves as a pretty unique boss in NSMBWii and NSMBU because you can't combo him. Why they just don't use him as a boss in Wonder is honestly incomprehensible to me.
Mario bros. DS makes me kinda sad that they messed up wonder’s bosses
You actually hit the nail with the hammer with that "Wonders boss lineup is just DS' villain bosses without the world bosses". All of Bowser Jr. fights in Wonder are honestly pretty decent if you're comparing it to the previous game's mid-world bosses, but because he's the ACTUAL boss of the worlds, it feels underwhelming.
And on top of that, it would have been really easy to just give these worlds the NSMB treatment. We got all these new enemies, many of which are WORLD SPECIFIC, and all these Wonder effects and we SEE them combined for some of the levels. We literally get King Boo as a Wonder effect to basically be just a glorified autoscroll wall, so why they didn't just go all out on this for the bosses is beyond me.
Also kinda unrelated, but they really should have had Kamek, who SPAWNS the airship, as the actual BOSS of the airships, because it's kinda a problem when there's a genuine question if the machine we get at the end counts as a boss or not
I thought of a cool idea for the bosses of a 2d Mario game, in this game you would go through the basic Mario world, but the order would be far different than the usual order you go through and in them, you would fight a mid boss and a final boss, the mid boss would be a returning original boss, and then the final boss of each world would be the couplings, but the main theme of this game would make the couplings a little more interesting along with the original bosses, the boss and coupling of that world would be given elemental powers based off the world they are in and this would affect the mid boss by giving them some elemental attacks and making them not as easy to stun lock, but the couplings would be given a very big upgrade in this because in their fights, they are essentially split up into three phases per hit, each time you hit them they will do a new strategy that will involve using the element power they have and changing the environment around you in order to make it harder for you to hit them and after you hit them, they will go into the shell, but use their element power too make shell spin a lot more instead of just going from left right they would all have different variations of spinning around, the order of the worlds and bosses would be.
W1🏝️ Unagi, water Ludwig
W2🌳 Petey, plant Iggy
W3🌋 Reznor, fire Roy
W4🌩️ Lakithunder, lightning Lemmy
W5🏜️ Mummy pokey, Wind Wendy
W6☃️ Chief Chilly, ice Larry
W7⛰️King Bob omb, Rock Morton
W8🪐Kamek, Cosmic Bowser
ACTUALLY, I've discovered that you don't actually need the clown car to fight Bowser Jr. As long as you have a Propeller Mushroom when you reach the boss, you can actually jump on him. Once you enter the clown car, you're locked in it, and then Jr., to avoid getting stomped on, will duck when you get too close to him.
Why we have to fight the same people over and over again in 2D Mario games
Idk
Because Nintendo is creatively bankrupt.
“I hope they add Rango in the next Mario Kart” was actually so funny
I was really expecting wonder to have incredible bosses considering the creativity behind it
Your boss roster prescription is right on the money I think. It's fine to have an enemy squad with common motifs like the koopalings or broodals but supplemented with unique world bosses.
Putting the games into a tier list(based on how good their bosses are):
SMB1/Lost Levels: C-
These are the first two games, so they get a pass, but they still aren't good.
SMB2: C+
Bosses are unique in design and attacks, but points are lost for Birdo repetition
SMB3: C
Similar case with the first three games, fortress bosses repeat, Koopalings are different but feel the same, Bowser carries
SMW: A
The Koopalings have different attacks compared to SMB3, Reznor repeats but the secret exists needed to get to each fortress make up for it, Big Boo as a boss is a neat idea, wish he was in more games, Bowser boss music is cool
SML: C-
Bosses are unique, but they're too easy
SML2: B-
Bosses are more unique, but still nothing special
NSMB(DS): A
Bosses are all different and cool, the only reason it's not 'S' is because the final boss is mid, at least the theme is cool, Bowser Jr repeating is fine because of what Nintendo was trying to do at the time
NSMBWii: B+
Tower bosses in Worlds 1-7 are mid, Bowser fight is one of the best in the Mario series
NSMB2: B
Tower bosses repeat, Koopaling fights are mid, the Bowser and Dry Bowser fights carry
NSMBU/NSLU: B+
Boom Boom fights are very mid, best Koopaling fights, Bowser Jr has cool boss fights, this Bowser is my favorite mostly for the theme
SMB Wonder: A+
Bowser Jr might repeat, but he's different enough for me to like, the only reason this isn't 'S' tier is because I wish there were more bosses
Obviously this list (and the video) are focused on 2D Mario, but how do you feel about 3D Mario game's bosses as far as a graded ranking? I'd probably put most of them at A or higher, with a few like 3D Land being lower for repetition.
@@shanegiorgio4713
SM64: A-
Sunshine: A+
SM64DS: A+
Galaxy 1 and 2: S
SM3DL: B+
SM3DW: S
Odyssey: S
I take offense to this.
I’ve burned down many houses and it’s NEVER been boring!
7:06 Larry is supposed to Larry all over the place
When i was younger, Ludwig's fight in NSMB Wii has the hardest Mario boss for me at that point
I think the "not *_enough_* bosses" problem of Mario Wonder, can be pointed to as a factor in making a game feel full in general. Even in NSMBU where you had two bosses per world and 3-4 more put in very specific positions, that's still less than 20 bosses. A JRPG can oftentimes have 30-50 and each of those fights is *_longer_* than a simple three-stomp cycle. There's really no harm in just increasing the number of fights. But you still need to have more variation to give them a point.
I say that an eight-world format could use similar theming rules to your suggestion. You could use 2-4 of these four boss domains per world, in any order and quantity depending on the world:
1. Checkpoint keep. This is a tower, fortress, outpost, etc. used by a boss-class enemy that isn't a single character necessarily, such as Birdo, Boom Boom, Reznor, Big Boo, Undergrunt Gunner...
2. Koopalings' personal airships. Full airship level, with the respective Koopaling as the boss. Each is still themed to the world it's in, but much more subtly, such as being fitted with equipment used to perform standard tasks related to the world before Mario got there.
3. Themed dungeon. Each with unique map model, such as a temple, giant tree, stadium, flaming ruins, a colossus. The boss would match the dungeon theme and tie into the world-contained story arc, such as Knucklotec guarding the ring.
4. Stronghold/Key strategic position. A castle, command center, naval base, mine and refinery, a factory, etc. The boss here has something to do with the world arc directly, and the level and boss can be themed after the world plot, rather than the world itself - King Bob-Omb, Petey Piranha, Kamek, Chief Chilly, those ones.
The bosses don't need to *_strictly_* adhere to the type of domain, even if they still fit the theme. You could have an early-game stronghold boss be a checkpoint keep boss later, such as the non-individual boss-class enemies Boom Boom and Reznor, or the make-it-bigger-and-stronger regular enemies Goomba, Sumo Bro and Chain Chomp. The world's Koopaling may abandon ship and leave you with a boss they set upon Mario, before taking off to be the dungeon boss instead. You may have a recurring boss who changes how they fight, and can be put in any level category, such as Bowser Jr, or Kamek. Any other boss that has a rematch, can get extra things in the fight, like fighting two Boom Booms, or Kamek hangs out in the background while you try to fight an Undergrunt Gunner.
Finally, make direct plot links between the bosses. If the stronghold comes before the dungeon boss, maybe have the commander in a video call with Bowser about the progress of their operation, then later, the dungeon boss thinks you're the invading force it was warned about. If you put the Koopaling airship between the dungeon and checkpoint, then said Koopaling may have tracked Mario down to slow his approach to the objective. If there's another faction in the plot, have them explain why they're at this level, or a little detail about the boss they're summoning if they're not it - such as finding Princess Shroob at a flash-freezing facility where you navigate over liquid nitrogen instead of lava, and she frees a Shrooboid.
There are so many ways to make 2D platforming work in a way where the bosses are fun, and there's an actual story. It really isn't hard.
i've always thought this too. mario boss fights have never really felt like boss fights when compared to other 2d platformers
I love how there is NOT batman
In Mario World, the movesets of the koopalings are repeated in castle 1 and 7, 2 and 6, 3 and 5, only the 4th koopaling is unique.
What was Nintendo's reason for making the "bosses" of Wonder the ONLY thing that's shitty? Why haven't they answered us about it?
The Bowser fight in New Super Mario Bros wii was the best boss fight in Mario history. The dramatic music, the shaking of the camera, and the adrenaline you get when he jumps closer. I want another boss that isnt too dofficult but also very stressful when its the first time. I also think that fight after the classic Bowser fight minutes before it was a letter from Nintendo saying "ok, lets upgrade"
I like how you mentioned Bowser's brother. He's extremely underrated.
Plot twist, Bowser Jr.'s real father is Bowser's Brother.
@@christianfrost8660 Wow I... I never really thought of that. Good theory. (ʘoʘ)
@@christianfrost8660then why is bowser jr green and not blue
@@cadefilms4072genetics.
I also think it'd be cool if some 2D Mario bosses took the Galaxy approach of being designed around specific power-ups, like one that need the propeller hat or one in which the blue shell power makes things easier. Helps adds complexity to run, wait and jump on head
The trouble with that approach is the way power-ups work in the 2D games. Requiring you to use something that you can lose if you get hit once either means you have to be perfect, or the game has to feed you more power-ups (which feels kind of...inelegant? Like you can't lose...it may just take longer to win).
You don’t need to have only one cool bowser reference per video. We want more cool bowser!!
Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins was so so so good. Played it for hundreds of hours as a kid in the 90s
I think wonder could have gotten away with Bowser Jr being every boss if the wonder effects actually made him transform into something different each time, kind of like how mario and co transforms in some levels
Tropical Freeze has peak 2D platformer boss design. Unfortunately, I don't think Nintendo has it in them to give 2D Mario challenging bosses that take multiple attempts to learn and execute (lack of platforming challenge was Wonder's main flaw, imo). Best we can hope for are unique designs.
I think for the next Mario game they should do what Mario odyssey did and let you move your camera freely while The boss just moved around making unpredictable moves. I don’t know how they could do it in 2D but if they can, it would probably be really fun.
What is my reason to move freely you ask? (it’s because I want to break the 4th wall) but also like Mario odyssey when you were able to move freely you were able to have more room in the Bossfight if you were able to go backwards (and besides 2D games are already easy why not make it easier?)
The problem with being able to basically stun lock the koopalings made me appreciate Iggy’s fights more cause he almost solves that problem, not a complete fix but he can sometimes be hard to hit. In Wii it’s really dependent on the Chain Chomp position but also it’s a unique take on their shell states so that’s a bonus. Nsmb2 is kinda similar but I found it a bit easier. Wii U had the possible chance of him booking it back into the pipe cause of how he constantly goes through the pipes on the sides in his shell state, he could possibly pop out when you’re not near him
Cool video!
I know you said you don't want to rank all of the bosses just yet, but how would you rank the 2d games by the quality of their bosses?
I just realised I was the first one to view this 😂😂. Love the video :) also a really simple way of making these bosses more engaging is maybe restricting powerups (or have a specific power up) and more hitpoints
Still waiting for the "all mario odyssey purple coin set ranking"
5:02 I now get this, its because the wings complement the blocks really well, actually making the boss fight way less cheasable then becoming intersting but removing the wings just removed that option.
I liked the Koopalings and I think the new super Mario Bros series would be a beloved franchise if Nintendo wouldn’t have spammed them.
I got some ideas for how the koopalings could've worked with the wonder gimmicks.
W1: Larry (Shifting ground)
Larry fights largely the same as in the New Super Mario Bros games, jumping and occasionally shooting magic from his wand. His 2nd phase shrinks the arena by removing the floor from the corners of the room. Lastly, Larry's 3rd phase would basically just be his Castle fight in Wii.
W2: Wendy (Various ring attributes)
Wendy has skates similar to Mario U, and still uses bouncing rings. However, in her 2nd phase, the fight changes a lot when the rings become icy, gaining the ability to freeze parts of the floor when they touch it, resulting in ice physics (Wendy is immune, for she has ice skates). The rings also become larger. Things only get crazier in her 3rd phase, as Wendy's rings transform into Condarts upon touching the ceiling, and charge down whenever Mario goes under them.
W3: Roy (Movement methods)
Roy starts off with a simple ground pound and magic attack, plus the pipe movement from Mario Wii, but things become intense after he takes damage. In phase 2, he can jump incredibly high, similar to a Hoppycat, and his head becomes spiked. The only way to damage him is after he does the Hoppycat jump while on the ceiling, after which Roy bumps his head on the floor, exposing his belly to be jumped on. Finally, phase 3 turns the walls of the arena into giant bill blasters that Roy himself can enter, catapulting him horizontally. However, he loses the hoppycat jump and armor. Periodically, bullet bills can spawn.
I'll figure out the rest at a later date.
Unironically just dont kill the koopalings as soon as they come out the shell spin and the fight gets way better. Sure, its not efficient, but who cares it feels so much cooler and fun to actually let them do something instead of insta killing them. NSMBU has some great fights if you just... let iggy back on to the roof, or morton get a pokey up, or ludwig jump up.
Should you have to do this on purpose? Obviously no, but its so much more fun and engaging if you do!
Super Mario Kingdoms (Concept of next 2D mario game)
Kingdom 1 - Donut Plains (finally a place for a mariokart track to come from!)
-Larry
-Oath The Tree
Kingdom 2 - Desert Oasis
-Iggy
-Dry Pokey (dry bones?!)
Kingdom 3 - Snowball Field
-Wendy
-Snowballer
Kingdom 4 - Mushroom Kingdom
-Ludwig
-Bowser Jr
Kingdom 5 - Batmoth Mines
-Roy
-Batmoths
Kingdom 6 - Coral Reef
-Morton
-Angler
Kingdom 7 - Mountain Freeze
-Lemmy
-Ice Dragon
Kingdom 8 - Bowsers Castle
-Mega Dry Bones
-Bowser
Ain’t This Perfect?
"the only criticism of mario wonder is that the bosses are lame"
search parties have left the chat
The fact that you can quickly hit the boss again is ment to be a reward for skillful play. I think they should keep this feature but make the timing A LOT harder.
You are wrong 3D Land has the greatest boss fight of all time
3D has some creative fights. But not of all time.
One of the BEST "boss fights" in MM2 i had ever gotten to enjoy (watching) was a very well built level fully themed around a Ghost Ship using Dry Fish where they can fully "swim" and unfortunately if you hit the POW's too fast the level breaks.
0:06 that aged well
12:44 this is exactly that I thought, when I played NSBM first time. I was like "nice Koopalings return after all these years and even in 3D." And then... Larry jumped over to the next castle and I was like "wait, the are the only Bosses and I ahve to fight them two times each?"
Edit: to improve the bosses? Please ! remove the shell-phase! It is overdone. I can't take it anymore, jumping 5-10 seconds over and over again over a spikey shell. I got it, we can do that, it is a very basic dodge, and it is repeated over the NEW Series over and over again, even in Mario Maker it appears.
Mario wonder’s boss fights have cool concepts, but they’re executed pretty blandly…
The bosses of a platforming game should not be just thematically fitting, but also gameplay fitting.
Imagine if you're playing a turn-based RPG and the boss battle in each dungeon is a rhythm minigame, that's how most of the Super Mario bosses feel like.
If a world introduces the gimmick of falling platforms and is used throughout the levels, then the boss should include an arena of falling platforms; that simple design choice is enough to make the bosses feel memorable and rewarding to beat.
I love how even the most creative of the 2D Mario games still has the most repetitive ass boss fights in the series 💀
I always get bored fighting the Koopalings in the New Super Mario Bros games-
I just wish Bowser Jr. would use his paint brush more. Like imagine he could paint all sorts of different magical goop to make things harder for you. Maybe as an attack if you stand too close he could even swipe at you with it. It’s a tool with limitless possibilities for boss attacks that goes criminally underused.
All the 3D mario bosses (except mario 3D land and 3D world) are good
In SB3, when you fight the miniboss at the end, it is always after a tough ship. So it is good that they are similar and you can get used to fighting them. I always enjoyed it in my playthrough.