First Focal Plane vs Second Focal Plane Rifle Scopes
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- In this video, I explain the difference between first and second focal plane in rifle scopes. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but I generally prefer first focal plane scopes.
My favorite scopes: backfire.tv/be...
Very well explained. My hunting scopes are SFP with cross hairs, my long range scopes are FFP with tactical radicals (MRAD in my case) thumbs up for the private school!
The subtension holdovers on a SFP scope cost me a cow elk in Utah several years ago. It was totally my fault. At this time, I was fully aware that adjusting the magnification on a SFP scope can change your holdovers. I was hunting in the timber and kept my Nikon scope with BDC reticle at the lowest magnification. I dropped down into a canyon and was hiking the bottom when all of a sudden a small heard of elk ran down one side of the mountain and stopped right in the bottom of the canyon 320 yards away. This should have been a fairly easy shot for me, but I rushed things and forgot to dial my magnification back to max. I used my 2nd holdover circle, which was dead on at 300 yards at full magnification, however, at the lowest magnification setting that same same circle was now dead on at 540 yards. The difference in drop was 34.5 inches. Needless to say, I shot way over her back. I ate tag soup that trip and it has always been a valuable yet bitter reminder to slow down and check things before making a shot. I still hunt with that same rifle and scope and have harvested game since then. I don't have a preference one way or another as I own both FFP and SFP scopes and believe that both can be suited for hunting and long range shooting depending on the application.
Thank you Jim for continuing to create good content.
I read that first sentence and went "wait wait wait. YOU cost you a cow elk." Then I read the second sentence and felt like a jerk.
But really, this is a great reminder for me as well.
@@muchomango2703 LOL That's funny. I still feel like a jerk for making that mistake. However, it has been the single most valuable mistake I have ever made hunting, knowing I will never do it again. I was just sharing in the hopes that my experience could help out others. Thanks for sharing.
@@jasontassey9013 Same situation happened to me a few years ago. I was deer hunting in WI and had a 243 topped off with a vortex second focal plane. This was at our cabin where we have multiple stands with multiple shooting lanes, fields, and marshes that are 300-400 yards long. The stand I was in had 2 lanes and a field that were over 300 so you really have to pay attention and be ready for a shot because they usually dont linger around in the lanes and can pop out anywhere. An 11pt buck popped out at about 225 and I held over at the first dash as it was about 225. I forgot the scope was not zoomed in all the way and hit it high in the back. Luckily the buck was just stunned and I was able to get a second shot which dropped him like a bag of bricks. But after that I ended up switching guns to something more powerful, not because of the scope but because I dont think 243 is ideal for shooting big bodied northern deer at over 300. Good thing I did because after that I ended up shooting bucks at 350 yards the next two years with a 257 wby and 28 nos.
One thing I learned over the years.
If you know you gear and its quirks, you will do well.
Anither example. If you have an APSC camera instead of a full frame camera, you should use different aperture settings to get the same results. Instead of setting your aperture to an f-stop of f5.6 on APSC, set it to and f-stop of f3.5 to get the same depth of field as a full frame camera set at f5.6.
I did this same thing a couple years ago on my first mule deer buck. I shot over his back and couldn’t understand why. Luckily because of the canyon and sound, he was confused on where I was and walked towards me and I was able to take him within 60 yards.
Awesome move on building the private school. I hope more parents follow your lead, it is precisely what America needs. I support you 100%
Yep. Its just a matter of time before that catches on ! Hiring teachers shouldn't be a problem. Just give a few rules first ,like u stated earlier, they will agree to.
100%
X2
What Mr. Ryan said!
Good luck!!!
Actually it is the worst idea in the US! Jefferson had it right. Unfortunately the US fights itself today. Great scope exploitation.😊
Nice
As a Brit, 61 years old. Lots of shooting experience (in the past, and now back again!) I just watched this vid, and the one for MOA V's Mildot. Seriously, I learned MORE from these two, than in the last year during my occasional "Research". Nice one mate, and thank you
I’ve just always placed the crosshairs on the body adjusted for drop at the distance I’m shooting. Always works. If I know at 300 yards it will drop 4 inches, I put my crosshairs a little above the heart- lung area. Shot a big muley in Colorado at approximately 600 yards and was aiming above his back, dropped him. Just practice practice practice.
The very best way has worked fine for me , I done the same in CO. many years ago
Exactly my thinking to. Just adjust on the target. For hunting and the apocalypse sfp makes more sense in my mind. Ffp for long range competition I can see a point but not in real life situations.
I actually like a second focal plane with an moa type reticle on a hunting rifle. At shorter distances, I don't have to deal with the shrinking reticle and at longer distances of 300+ yards where the holdover points and windage come into play, I will be at max magnification anyway.
Exactly 💯👏🏻
This right here is my exact opinion
Agree 100%, especially if chances are very slim of taking shots over 400 yards where I do most of my hunting. I've had an FFP and it was difficult to see and more complicated than I needed. Also, SFP is fine to be zoomed all the way in up to about 16x, but starts to get impractical above that
Chad M’s comment is 100% correct from someone who has obviously already gone down the FFP rabbit hole, and found his way back out again. FFP is expensive, and entirely unnecessary unless you’re running a super high magnification scope like 20+ power magnification for 800+ yard shooting. With that large magnification range it is possible you wouldn’t want to zoom all the way in.
For everything below 600 yards a 12x scope is more than enough zoom capability, and you’ll always zoom all the way in when over 300 yards as Chad pointed out.
Great comment Chad. I always hate the 1,000 yard guys convincing the vast majority of hunters that a SFP scope is a bad choice for
I agree 100%. In a hunting scenario where seconds count, I want a clean, easy reticle that isn’t busy and I can acquire my target quickly. I know yardage for my subtensions at max zoom so it just makes it painless and easy when stress/blood pressure/anticipation is extremely high.
I enjoyed the talk about the scopes BUT the fact that you are building a private school, FANTASTIC. Keep up the good work. From Down Under.
I've really been enjoying your videos since I found your channel a few weeks ago, but your short edited insert is really what drove it all home for me lol. I appreciate you brother! Keep up the great work and thank you so much for all of the information.
I fall in with the minority 20%ers and I am quite adamant about it. I am old school and I know the benefits of FFP are good arguments but I don't do a heck of a lot of missing targets with my SFP scope anyway so I stick with what has always worked well for me. I dont like crosshairs fouling my view and I am a minimalist when it comes to reticles. But I will never tell anyone they are wrong about this or that preference of equipment. We all need to be humble about these things. Thanks for your videos. I know a lot of work and effort goes into their making they are very good research tools! Be well and may God bless your private school project. I know He will brother!
Excellent video, thanks. The choice between FFP and SFP begs the question regarding intended use. There are three main sighting methods - turret dialing; reticle holdover; and max point blank range (MPBR). Many who grew up with SFP scopes for hunting have learned to use MPBR with holdover for windage. This makes sense to anyone who has had a game animal in the crosshairs and realizes there is no time to adjust turrets - heart pounding, breathing heavy, etc. What I do is to use MPBR and pre-dial according to the estimated distance and target size (e.g., 6 inches, 10 inches, etc.). For example, a 10 inch target (for my load) says to adjust up 3.4 inches to give a 330 yard zero with a MPBR of 390 yards. If I expect up to a 400 shot, then I set accordingly. If I think the shot will be closer, then I would set the MPBR for a smaller target size. I created a dope card that sets the target size from 2 inches out to 18 inches, so I'm good out to 500 yards.
Goddamn I don't know what any of that means because I'm new to this (was a combat medic so my only experience really is an M4 plus a new AR in about to build and not sure what scope to put on it).
@@MooShaka89 Congrats on your new AR. What will you use it for? Based on your response, I (or others) can suggest some scopes to consider.
@@MooShaka89 Also tell me more about your AR build. Is it a AR15 (e.g., 223/556) or AR10 (e.g., 6.5 creedmoor, 7.62/308)?
One big thing you left out about 2nd is that at half the magnification it’s super easy to just cut your moa in half. When you talked about dialing that 24 power maven to 10 then the subtensions are wrong, well just dial to 12 and cut your moa in half.
Yep, my Vortex PST 2.5-10 is 2nd focal plane and has detents at 5x, and 3.3x allowing for 1/2, 1/3, and 1/4
Yup. That's exactly what I do. Very smart point!
Can you explain this a little better to me
@@KethenGoesHam my SFP scope is 5.5x-22x. Half of 22 is 11 and half of that is 5.5, or full MOA, half MOA, .25 MOA. So a SFP reticle has subtensions that are only accurate at full 22x power in MY scope. Say I want to hold 4 MOA for wind. The reticle stays the same with a SFP at any magnification. So if 22x is too much for the task at hand, I just change to 11x. The deer, in this scenario, will be 2x larger even though the reticle stays the same size. So I would cut that 4 MOA in half and use 2 MOA. If I were to choose 5.5x, I would cut that in half again and use 1 MOA. Of course shots 25-200yds the difference isn’t enough to make a difference. Then use any power you want pretty much. I generally only use 3 power settings with this scope….5.5, 11, and 22x when there is wind to worry about beyond 200yds. Hope this helps!
So let me resurrect a zombie old post here... The subtentions and dialing for that matter, in a SFP scope are only accurate at one distance usually the max magnification. take a 6-24 scope, if you dial say 5 moa and hold 2 moa on the subtentions, for 7 moa at max zoom, if you were to shift that to 12x power and have those 5 dialed, and 2 held, it would actually add up to 14 moa of elevation. Half the power doubles the hold. and if you were to go to say 8 zoom it would go up even more like 21 MOA I think. The power of a 2nd focal plane scope really shines in long distance shooting, I got one on a 300 RUM and can dial a mile, if I go to 12 power that same dial and holds would get me so much further. FFP scopes due to their zoomy construction generally don't have as much vertical travel as a SFP scope. Yes it can mess you up if you don't know how to use the tool, but instead just dial and hold center and it will be accurate at any zoom level. I was looking to see if any one explained this out yet why 2FP scopes can be really really good. The explination at the end going to duplex, literally destroys like the only great advantage of a SFP scope. It boggles me why you would give that up. @@KethenGoesHam
This review is absolutely on the money, very good comment using a simple duplex reticle for SFP.
I'm 68 & appreciate Ur explaining the difference between the 2 types of focal planes! Since I have all First Focal planve scopes I think I'll stick with another one but am more comfortable doing so now thanx to Ur video!!! Great job & thanx
Second focal plane is better for hunting. Most often you don’t have all this time to fool around with the elevation turret. First focal plane are better suited for long range target. I think the host is knowledgeable and is really trying to help. I’ve taken my share of game over the years. I’ve never seen a game animal wait for you to dial your in your scope.
I've tried both, and I find I prefer SFP scopes. I know FFP optics are freaking awesome, but I've made the individual choice to stick to SFP for the following reasons:
1. My middle aged / old man eyes can't see the FFP reticle for squat when it's not zoomed out. May as well be a tiny dot to me.
2. When I shoot, I tend to be zoomed all the way out, or all the way in, and almost never in between.
3. I haven't ventured out of .308 Win for logistical reasons. So I stick with a 300 yard zero. For the most part, all i need to keep in mind, depending on bullet weight, is my POI can be 3 to 6" high inside that zero. Once I hit 300 yards, it's an entirely different game ballistically speaking. At which point, i'm all the way zoomed out for proper subtensions anyway.
4. Keeping It Simple cause I'm Stupid. (KISS)
I have rarely dialed a scope up past 4-6x for a shit, regardless of distance.
I also prefer SFPs for many of the same reasons. I could see how FFPs with the complex “tree” type reticles would be beneficial for long range target shooters with good eyes in particular. I don’t turn dials while hunting, as I am a firm believer in being able to be able to take shots as quickly as possible and limit confusion. I don’t want to venture to say how many opportunities are lost due to dial turning. Basic BDC reticles in SFP are all the complexity I need.
You nailed it. If you have an extended range zero, only long shots will need holds and you just have to make sure your on max! Good comment!
Thanks for the information. well done on the school best of luck with that
if you can't see FFP reticle when zoomed out, you should have had a different reticle, that should never be a reason to not use FFP
also instead of using old man eyes as a reason get a scope with a diopter adjust
Good luck on your new school! ❤
Our children deserve good schools. 👍 Government schools are evil these days.
Thank you.
I like both...
First focal plane for
FFP is great for precision, long range targets, and shots that involve you dialing in the shot.
Second focal plane is better for closer range, faster "tactical" type shooting where you keep a constant zero and " close enough" shots are
perfectly acceptable, and you can correct with a follow up shot
THANK YOU! I completely agree with the choice of duplex reticles on sub-150 yard second focal plane optics! I know many shooters like them, but IMO, BDC reticles on second focal plane scopes are visually cluttered and only meaningful at one magnification.
Long range shooting is a different matter altogether. And I completely agree that FFP scopes hold significant advantage. Here, the reticles are still visually cluttered, but absolutely necessary.
Love the channel! Please keep up the good work!
Excellent explanation. I keep things simple (or as simple as I can) so all my optics are second focal plane with a duplex. For hunting I don't really need anything more
That is the perfect hunting scope
I got this nice illuminated recticle (red & green with 5 brightness levels) 4-16x scope with marks for 200, 300, 400, and 500 yards (assuming a 100 yd zero) that fit nicely into my budget. Sadly, it's a 2nd focal plane scope, which means if I wanna use those marks, I gotta keep it zoomed in. But... I can probably make it work.
Excellent video. I was one of the ones who didn't know the difference before watching this vid. This knowledge will be quite useful the next time I'm out searching for rifle optics.
Be careful to read instructions. I have seen 6-24 power scopes in second focal plan that the hash marks work on 16 power and not all the way up. Vortex scope I believe.
I'm an old school Iron sights, instinctive shooter guy, this scope stuff is new to me. Your video's are great.
same, im good at 300 w/ irons
I'm an old guy. My wife and I home schooled all four of our kids for the overwhelming majority of their education for the same major reasons you are doing so. We did this over the span of about 1981 through 2020, (yes, there was a 19-year gap in the ages of our #2 and #3), and things have gotten worse, not better, since then. I admire you and your wife for making this decision, knowing that it's not the easy way to go but it is by far the most rewarding way to go. God will bless the two of you for the work you're putting into this endeavor and your young people will bless you for the love you're putting into them. And thank you for being transparent with your subscribers. It is this kind of transparency that has an impact on the decisions that other people make. This, in other words, is how we change the world. From SE Washington State, may God bless you both, Miles
Good video. One thing I’d like to add or clarify is that the first focal plane reticle is the same size no matter what. Zoomed in, it takes up just as much of the target as zoomed out.
A second focal plane takes up more of the target area zoomed out than zoomed in.
For 40 years I never touched a scope knob unless I was working up a load or sighting in at the target range. I compensated with hold-over or beside in the field; have a couple BDC reticles. Now I have become adventurous and I have a "ranging" elevation turret (VX5-HD - FireDot) for my preferred load. Never owned a FFP and don't intend to ever buy one. But then 400 yards is extreme long range for me on the powerlines and the dark hemlock stands and brushy woodlots I hunt I seldom have 200 yards open view.
I have never tried a FFP scope but this is the first video that made sense to me. Thankyou!
Another great video Jim. I use a Vortex viper HS 2.5-10X44 in sfp. A really great scope for the price, no fancy bells and whistles on it. The last thing I want to be doing out there in the field is have to be messing around with turrets and parolaxe adjustments. With SFP scope, if for example you have the scope zeroed in at say 200yds, that POI never changes know matter how you change the zoom. Meaning the center of the crosshair. Right? ............Just what to touch on the school thing. I worked in the public school system up here in Canada for 30 years, and if the snow flake teaching atmosphere is anything like it is up here in Canada then our kids are really in trouble. For example, telling young girls that being overweight is beautiful and attractive is just mindblowing to me. The clap there pushing up here is appalling imo. Where little boys and little girls don't know weather they're supposed to be boys or girls or something else. I'll just stop right there.
Christ is coming. Thats better?
Yes
Awesome news on the school. My son attended a similar start-up private school in the Pensacola, FL area. District punished one of their principals for saying (not leading) a prayer. He quit and founded LEAD Academy. Enrollment filled right up. There is a demand out there.
There is a huge demand. The freaks that are charged with shaping the next generation are not representative of the average parents.
I use a SFP scope on a 30.06. Sight it in zero for 247 yrds and aim where you want on anything under that range you got it. At 320 yards just hold above center of chest and again you got it. At 400 yards aim at top of the back on elk and again you got it. Leave your adjustment knobs alone.
Second focal plane for me. I do mostly open area hunting in South Africa, in the Karoo. However as a rule I never shoot past 300 meters. The magnification stays at max, cause the animals dont like us to get closer than 100meters (more like 200meters)
I
What is your maximum magnification?
Well poop….I was backwards and I’ve got a VX6HD and 3 VX5HDs. Thought they would be better for long range shooting. Guess I’ve got a lot more to learn! Thanks for puttin this out there! Always enjoy your videos! And congrats on the school!!
Those two scope lines with the CDS caps are money. Don't fall into the FFP hype trap. Get Leupold to send you a cap for each scope, and learn to dial it. Super simple if you get the yardage cap and they work great. Never shot long range my entire life until I put a VX5HD 4-20x52 Duplex Firedot on my Proof Research Elevation 6.5CM. Was hitting 8 inch gongs at 1000 yards within 15 minutes.
SFP scopes are way better for general use hunting in actual use, after using both quite a bit . People get sucked into FFP cause of the tacticool trendy marketing, forums, etc. If you dial for elevation it doesn't matter. Trying to quickly get on target with FFP at lower magnification in dark timber or low light sucks.
Typically if you are adjusting for wind, the shot is long enough that you would be at max zoom anyways, unless you have a ridiculous scope with 30x zoom intended for long range target shooting competition
You still can use retricle in sfp in different zoom - Just use math. If correct set retricle is for example on x12 so on x6 is 1/2 correct set etc. I used sfp scope and math to convert holdover on my airgun (so it is very big pellet drop)
Most, not all, but most do not stay consistent in the ratios along the magnification spectrum so that is not always reliable.
I run a 200 yard 0 on my hunting rifles. Between that, a range finder, and knowing how many moa of adjustment I need for 300, 350, and 400 yards, that's all I really need. Plus I can get more scope for the same money (typically).
While first is fine as well, I do appreciate not having the thick lines when zoomed in, and the very thin lines when zoomed all the way out.
FFP on my target rifles though.
Finally getting around to maven products. Love my maven products thus far.
I prefer SFP for hunting and recreational shooting. Agree with Jim about only wanting a duplex reticle for SFP... which is why I got a Trijicon AccuPoint 3-9x40 duplex with illuminated green center dot. Amazing scope.
I didn't understand this at all, and when I heard the differences, I thought "Why would you want a 1st plane scope? I want my reticle to be the same " After seeing the video, I am full to the 1st plane scope.
Very educational video, thank you! Good luck with the school too!🍀
Great video. I never knew the difference til now. Thanks!
My mil dot is supposed. I've done my home work with subtension. I have found where I increase or decrease magnification I been able to move dot to point of impact like clicking to said distance.
Use to hunt alot of groundhogs at 500+ and factory groundhog class matches. That's how I learned to use sfp to my personal experiences.
Wish you the very best with the school. Hear you on the issues at hand.
Big Love from Salty Army 🧂
Mr. Harmer; Thank you for this instructive video. I do agree with you on FFP and SFP based on their particular use at particular times, distances, and purposes. They both offer pros and cons. I wish you and your spouse the best of all possible fortunes in your endeavors with the school you both are founding.
Good video. My only thoughts are; Second Focal Plane rules when, target shooting with a 22lr, as it allows you to "frame the target" with the reticle to steady your shot. Also a half MOA at 25 or 50 yards is basically irrelevant.
Also hunting at shorter ranges under 5X as the FFP reticle becomes too small to use any subtensions anyway, and too faint to be useful in low light. For most high powered hunting rifles it only makes sense if you shoot beyond 250 yards with a 5-35X56. Your mistakes will happen between 250 and 500 yards when you are at 16-34X. If you are using a 4-16X44 you will be using a dead hold out to 250 yards and above that you will be at the 16X anyway.
Can’t stand a reticle that’s too big when target shooting. For hunting I have my elevation wrote down in moa and wind hold for 10 mph at all ranges in inches. It’s fastest and easiest for me to dial the elevation and hold off in inches. Also I like a plain duplex reticle. Don’t need a lot of crap in the reticle. That’s the fastest, easiest, best way for me. So I prefer a 2nd focal plane
One thing I wish you would have mentioned about the second focal plane scopes is that at extended distances u can use lower magnification to ur advantage. Mainly on paper or steel. I have used it in hunting also. Take a 3x18 for example. If u go to 9x all of ur moa or mil hash marks in the reticle just doubled in there value. Could be a pro could be con depending on the person or application. Works great on a bdc scope especially if u think of ur circles for there value not the yardage.
Thanks for these videos, I’m just getting into learning about scopes so this is really helpful. Feel like I want something good quality but simple. Don’t think I’ll be shooting past 300yds. I recently bought a Ruger 10/22 and a cheap Bushnell banner 1.5-4.5 for it. I eventually want to get a quality bolt action and good scope but also want to learn how to use it first LOL. Anyways, thanks again for the info.
I liked the video but subscribed
When I heard what your building over the hill. So glad more and more people are doing something about it
I found the Bushnell ballistics app for my sfp scope and am having a ton of fun shooting my .22 at 200+ yards. Crazy fun
When you mentioned about building a school. Just made channel that much better. Cheers
Saya seorang penghobi menembak dengan senapan angin kaliber 0.177 yang diperbolehkan di negara saya indonesia..saya belajar menembak dengan jarak 50 yard menggunakan pcp dan pellet 13.6 grain.ketika menggunakan teleskop ffp sangat mudah dan cukup akurat perkenaannya karena seting parallaxnya praktis dengan memutar knop di sebelah kiri . Kemudian saya coba menggunakan teleskop sfp pun dengan senapan yang sama dan pellet yang sama juga tetep mudah perkenaan dan jatuhnya pellet di target..Jadi menurut pengalaman saya , teleskop sfp maupun ffp itu jika penggunaannya sesuai kebutuhan akan sama hasilnya, tetapi untuk sfp lebih unggul saat ada buruan yg datang didepan mata karena saat membidik maka parallaxnya tidak perlu di atur lagi dengan knop
One of the best video reviews on TH-cam for guns and optic. I'd like to take your brain about long distance shooting. I live in North Carolina but hunting Kentucky if you ever want to make a trip you are more than welcome to come hunting with us on our lease.
I use Leupold's boone & crockett reticle which is SFP. I sight it for MPBR so I don't have to rely on subtensions unless I need to take a longer shot, for which I'll zoom to max power and just hold over. For me this is the easiest and fastest way for shooting game up to reasonable distances.
I hate the Duplex reticle, but you just made great sense about what you said. For example, 36 yard zero and then you are good from 100 to 300 yards with almost any rifle. 🤔👍🏼
The old scope I grew up with, you needed a screw driver to adjust for elevation and wind, so holding over just comes naturally....same in judging distance, many hours of shooting smaller targets like rabbits really helps.
Now my choice is a red/green luminated 1st focal plane.
I'm a Dino, the same here, amazing similarities.
This is the way. I think people forgot how to shoot when you're hunting with all this fancy-schmancy horseshit. Really good glass, a wide field view, and learn your holds. Never touch the turrets on a hunting rifle after zero. The one thing I DO like about new scopes is the illumination in low light. Now THAT is super handy (imho oc).
@@lexwaldez That's what I think. I kept it simple for 50 + years hunting & it always worked.
When hunting i like second as it's simple and you don't get confused. I do love the Leupold scopes with the zero lock for this - the simpler the scope in the heat of the moment the better. For target shooting or varmint then I'm all for ffp.
I prefer 2nd focal plane. On an NXS, I have a fine crosshair with very small dot, with no marks or anything in my view. I have both, but especially when shooting long distances, such as 752 yards, I will be more accurate by clicking. The left or right is easily determined. On 42 power it is easy to judge small distances without using marks. Only drawback with fine ch is when getting dusk the reticle becomes hard to see, but It is illuminated and is visible even when dark.
Second focal plane, 30-30 reticle and fixed magnification with backup iron sights for hunting inside 300 yds on foot in rugged terrain. I prefer to adjust point of aim using holdover and Kentucky windage.
i like 2nd focal plane on hunting rigs as i typically keep scope at 3x always for snap shots and dial to max zoom for anything far enough away that i need to range, judge wind, figure drop, and get rifle supported for a shot (400+ yards). 2 hunting rifles have Mil/Mil SFP 3-21 and 1 hunting rifle has a mil/mil FFP 3-18 w/DMR reticle for low mag shots.
Lmao.. I have 3 second focal plane optics and I have never even given it a second thought on zoom level outside of sighting it in. Then it's important and all three of my sfp optics are vortex viper hst 6-24×50 and 16× magnification where your moa's are measured on those optics. I love them. They're crystal clear at any zoom level and that's the way I like it.. So works great for a pretty dang decent range if you need it too. . . I suppose that matters more depending on the caliber/load you're firing. The smallest rifle I have one on is a 6.5 creedmoor and welp.. hold overs by eyeballing ain't bad at all at 500 yards with a 6.5 creedmoor as long as you know your wind speed ... doesn't matter if Im sitting in 16× or not.. I'll hit no worries... a .308 on the other hand.. idk if I'd have the same level of confidence using a sfp optic at that range.. infact... I know that I wouldn't...I'd want a ffp optic even though I hate the reticle changing. Drives me nuts. I like a fine optic. Lol .. I have been shooting since I was 4 or 5 I was always taught to judge hold overs and distances by sizes of known nearby leaves.. anything.. just objects in general.. I don't give it much thought because I guess that im just pretty use to it being that I started at such a young age and am in my mid 30's now. I don't shoot much out past 500 yards though. I shoot a lot with my own guns and load my own ammo as well so in a way I guess I'm a creature of habit. Just my two cents on the matter.. if I was constantly shooting past 500yrds.. I may have ffp optics for my longer range guns but in my situation.. sfp is where it's at. I love that crystal clear image with fine cross hairs at any range.
I am one of the oddballs that prefer 2nd focal plane. I have shot plenty of deer beyond 400 yd with no problem. I have found that a first focal plane is almost useless for hunting unless you want to rely on an illuminated redical which I do not
The 2nd is far better as a hunting scope , read the old magazines about how bad the ffp scopes were until the 2nd focal planes came up , my first scopes were ffp and they were all junk
You'll have to keep us updated on your school! My daughter will be starting kindergarten this fall and my wife and I have debated about where we want her to go.
For a 300 yard shot on a deer as illustrated in your video I would imagine you would have your scope cranked up to maximum magnification anyway so the hash marks of the second focal plane reticle would be spot on.
Also the cap on the wind turret is there for protection against knocks when carried about.
I have always had second focal plane scopes on my hunting rifles and with the help of a good range finder and good field craft in wind reading I always dial wind and elevation. I would never have enough time to rush a shot at 200+ yards so there is plenty of time to settle down and dial the appropriate wind and elevation.
For long range hunting give me second focal plane scope any day
Got to agree with most everything. However I really like the Swarovski BRH reticle in second focal plane over a standard duplex. It's basically a mill dot with half mill lines and one wind mark. I have one in 3-10. Zeroed at 50 and basically dead on anything to 200yds. Anything over that I'm going the full 10x and it's markings are correct. It easily stretchs out to 450yds in my backyard. In a blind I prefer using holdovers as it's to dark to see and read dials expecially in low light.
I have one of these on an AR15. I want this reticle in almost every scope. It's a perfect blend with mils and wind holds. The thickness of the reticle is perfect. It is so fast to shoot. If I could change anything, I'd add some mil hashes along the main horizontal crosshair, and I'd like it in a scope I could dial when shooting past 500 yds. Basically throw this in a Nightforce NXS 2.5-10x42 and I'd be a happy camper.
Quality of design being equal, I generally prefer FFP, but for low zoom optics SFP is fine (such as an AR-15 recce rifle like the one I currently have a vortex strike eagle SFP on). For my purposes, If I'm needing to hold over or use my reticle to estimate range, I'm 100% for sure gonna be at max zoom anyway. So with proper reticle design & illumination, I find SFP is perfectly adequate. I agree with you though that for long range precision, FFP is preferred. Makes range estimation consistent & enlarging the reticle makes it easier for me to see and utilize my subtensions. Hence my choice of the Vortex Venom 5-25x56 for my budget LRP rifle lol. (I became a vortex fanboy after watching your binocular torture test & seeing them honor the warranty despite the destruction obviously being intentional lol. Being a lower income guy, my budget is limited but I still want a certain level of quality & product support, so I now have vortex on all my long guns. Have been very impressed with them!)
How much are you going to pay your teachers? How many students are you planning to start with? Which grades will you target? How do you prepare the students for public school or college before they exit your private school?
I shoot a lot in the off season with a SFP with a Christmas tree reticle. It’s a 4-16x44 with 1 MOA values at 16x, but I shoot almost exclusively with it at 8x so the values are 2 MOA.
With practice, it’s not overly challenging to know your reticle at 1/2 power and full power and what the sub tensions mean.
I like a second focal plane for hunting and a first for target shooting. I also keep my shots under 400 yards cause I'm no Professional.
Fun topic, SFP for 1-6x, FFP for precision, that's how I roll!
German post illuminated! Awesome! I have this in Leupold VX3L , 3.5x14.5... I have it on a Remington 700 tactical , 20 in barrel in .223 caliber. I get .250" groups with nosler 50 grain ballistic tips, 3150 fps, My coyote gun to 350 yards!
With all that explanation, I still didn't know what you were saying until about 9:40. OK, I hunt at under 200 yards, usually _way_ under. I'll get a second focal plane scope. I still don't understand the explanation but I'll accept the recommendation.
I wear no line bifocals all the time and need them to see any reticle. The only time I don't need them is looking through binocs. My Vortex 12X50 HD are the cat's meow. You can really glass better than the scope and see if it is even worth point a muzzle somewhere.
The biggest advantages I can see of second focal plane is low weight and low cost. For example, the Vortex Crossfire 3-9X40 Dead Hold is less than $200 and less than 15 oz, or less than a pound. And it does have hold overs. I like to call it the stove pipe reticle. The top of the fat pipe below the cross hairs is 500 yards. That being said, you don't even have to use those. Use a ballistic app for your load and scope height over chamber and calculate your PBR (point blank range.) A round that use works out to a zero of 200 yards and close zero of 37 yards or nearly 2 inches high at 100 yards. The bullet rises and falls a few inches and will be a kill shot, assuming it is whitetail deer, with a kill zone like an 8 inch pie plate, with a variance of no more than 4 inches. If you do that and you hunt at 200 yards or less, no dialing is needed. Aim and shoot, like the iron sights on a combat zeroed AR-15. If you are hunting your aunt's green bean field with a food plot about 80 yards away from your stand or roost, this is perfect, treat it like a red dot.
That being said, I still prefer the FFP scopes, even though they are more expensive and heavier. Some of the 6-24X50 and 5-25X56 offerings are 35 to 40 oz. A range gun, that isn't too bad. Hunting on foot on public land or even a mountain hunt make you question how much you want to carry. That being said, many is the military sniper lugging about 14 pounds of rifle, not including ammo.
I like being able to range in the reticle and often have to do that in the forest. My range finder will ding of a leaf and give me 30 yards when I know my target distance is further than that. So, I know a certain young tree has a 3 inch trunk and I measure 4 MOA with the scope. 71 yards. On my 100 yard zero, just about no adjustment needed.
But I have ranged another spot at 238 yards. So, I like to dial the distance and if the wind is a non stop 10 mph, I dial one click into it.
All that aside, which is great fun, God bless you and literally, thanks to God for you building that school and getting back to the basics of science and math and language. Someone needs to help preserve civilization. Descending into the waving of buttocks is not the way, I think. But others seem to like it and it reminds me of specials narrated by David Attenborough and some stuff sponsored by the insurance company, Mutual of Omaha, as in Omaha, Nebraska.
Also dont forget the center point on the recticle on both ffp and sfp scopes never changes.
Many don't know that, had some good arguments on that point on another post
FFP makes sense for long distances = higher zoom. One needs not worry about "what if the deer is too close". If the deer (or the target) is too close, then you don't need a graduated reticle in the first place. With whatever you have, just shoot at the cross.
And then, there are elevation knob ballistic compensation.
So no worries, all are good.
My thoughts/preferences:
-300 yards and closer: Either SFP or FFP
-300 yards to 1500 yards: FFP
-1500 yards and beyond: 5-50x56 SFP with Hashes and/or Dots
You don't want a ffp up close in poor light , you probably won't be able to see the cross hairs
@@robertboyd3863 I haven't found any of my FFP reticles, on lower magnifications, any more difficult to use than a German #4 or Duplex reticle. I've found that "bracketing" a target with 3 or 4 reticle points on lower magnifications is as effective as using floating dots or (+) on higher magnification when one's sight alignment & sight picture are consistent.
Bro good on you for building your own school! It’s scary that it has come to this but I agree with you about not wanting your children in that environment, sad so many other children in America (also in Europe) have to be put in that environment. Not sure what’s going on but I pray it stops. Keep up the great videos
Well said and you kept it simple. Takes some time to learn. However it does give you a excuse for some time at the range... win win . Now I can show my age some... and I remember when not that many people. Could afford a scope and well, shooting with a scope. That was cheating. However scopes were fixed power. The most common a 4x... and if you were a target shooter a 10x. Both "fixed". Try finding a fixed power scope now... lotsa luck...and if do buy it ! Then "variable magnificent " scopes starting to hit the market. The 3x9 or 4x12... were the most popular. [Rule of thumb 1x per 100 yards] [keep in mind a military sniper rifle had a fixed 10x on it]. The "magnification " didn't determine the distance. That just made it easier to see the target at distance. Having enough "elevation " adjustment was the key... ANYWAY.. Us old timers cursed "variable magnification " scopes. Unreliable and cheating..lol. Now, you have FFP / SFP, PARRALEX, LAZERS, ELECTRONIC POINT AND SHOOT... WIND METERS CALCULATORS... PHONE APPS..
how did we ever bring home game with our little 4x scopes and fine cross hair reticle ? .... lol.
Had to pause the video after the bomb drop about building the private school. Way to be, buddy. That is so awesome. I wish it was closer to me so my daughter could go there when the time comes.
Got my like for both the content, the disgust with YT's stupid policy against firearms related brand recommendations and building your own school. Live long and prosper.
I use both scopes. On my Tikka 223 l have a Nikon X 1000 FFP scope but on my hunting rifles l have SFP scopes. I like the FFP but yes you are right about how uncomplicated the SFP scopes are.
I tend to prefer a second focal plane, simpler and to be realistic 95% of the time I have the scope on either min or max magnification, if I'm at minimum the shot is very close and holdover is not a factor, if I'm shooting far enough I need to factor in drop/wind I'm going to be at Max zoom anyway
I use a ffp scope. My weapon is set up for a DMR role if I need it and putting meat on the table is its second function. I use a HUD Casa reticle because of the issues you mentioned above. That and while I can math with mills since I was an Artilleryman, I don’t wanna if I don’t have to 😂
I have the Burris Eliminator 3. Although it is second focal plane, it calculates from the distance (built in rangefinder) and from the magnification how many vertical lines to hold over for every 10mph of crosswind.
I'm a second focal plane guy and I like a simple Duplex reticle also. I'm an old National Match shooter and I know my cartridges and targets, I don't like fussing with scopes and I can dope my shots well IMHO especially for hunting. I say that out to 300 yards and it works for me. Lately I've been punching paper at longer distances, 500-600 yards with a bolt gun and I can see where a First focal plane would come in handy much like the irons on my Garands and M1a. Your elevation is a known constant so you dial it in much like a M1 peep sight. You know your on at range so you can concentrate on doping the wind with constant gradients. I would still use a duplex reticle but the only place I would like hash marks or mil-dots would be on the horizontal plane. Some of the scopes I see today have so much garbage written inside the reticle you loose the ability to watch the grass and foliage for your windage estimates.
Really helpful. Great idea also "train up a child on the way he should go". Given to parents
I use a FFP on the Vortex Razor 1x10 LPVO. The red dot at all powers is great especially at 1 power.
Nice job with the school! My 4year old son goes to private school.
I like duplex...but prefer german#4 or 4A for 2nd fp...draws my eye to the center quicker for some reason. Great vid...thx.
Short range SFP; Long range FFP. Thanks for the explanation.
Great video Jim. Im a second focal at the moment but if i get another scope i would seriously look at a first. Good luck with the school also.
Thanks for this video! Just what I was looking for.
I love that you are building a school. Respect to you.
When I got my first scopes in the early 60's ffp was all they had and no one them for hunting , soon the problem was cured with 2nd focal plane's . and cured the many problems of the ffp , for hunting the 2nd is always best , and also for long range target shooting also , with ffp at low light and up close the crosshairs will be hard to see, if you can see them at all on a long range small target they will cover up the target . They used to have a Lee dot that was popular it was a perfect night poaching scope as the dot was quick to use under the light
Great video man exactly what I needed to hear!
My opinion is all BDC type reticals should be FFP. Plain reticals should be SFP.
Thank you for all of your Contents on TH-cam. I'm low income so I can't become a member of Backfire yet. I looking forward to become a member. Just wanted to say thank you.
Thank u 4 taking the time. I didn't even understand the difference.
I own and use both SFP and FFP interchangeably. The point about only having a duplex reticle on a SFP really only applies to beginners and the uninformed. Knowing the relationship of reticle subtension and magnification can be very useful. It just requires some homework and practical application knowledge; something that all hunters should strive for anyway.
Best part of the video is around 8:37. Bravo good sir, we started homeschooling our basketball team worth of kids last year, by we I mean my wife.
I really like 2nd fp in the 1-4 or 1-6 lpvo's too because the reticles look better at 1 power and any long shots you'll for sure be at max magnification where your reticle should work properly. Anything above 6 power I'd probably start trying to get a FFP scope.
I don't like a ffp at any power
Terrific explanation. And good for you for starting your own school! Thank you.
Excellent explanation & examples. Thank you.
Good for you on taking a stand on the education for kids.