New Dota patch is cool, but is it getting a bit bloated?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Every new feature as of late really feels like it's trying to fix the issues with the previously added feature.
Talents still aren't very interesting most of the time, even if they do help give functional power progression.
Shards are interesting, but often feel tacked on and 'fixing' the issue that talents are tied to XP. Many also have wildly differing power levels for somewhat cheap in-game cost.
Neutral items are still my least favorite addition and I would gladly see those be reverted/deleted over any of these other things. - เกม
I 100% agree. Feature Creep (or scope creep) is generally what this is called. The Facets are World of Warcraft Specializations, where you can be core or support in Dota 2. The innates are passives for everyone. The other big change was mana being shown on opponents always. This removes what they used to call Skill Cap for those who select opponents. I also didn't like the map changes last year, that was unnecessary scope creep as well. I considered Dota going through feature creep when they added heroes like Marci and Muerta and primal beast - where the abilities are vector based. So now you've got simple heroes like Wraith king with 1 button, all the way up to selecting vector ricochets bouncing off trees and such. Sometimes adding features is nice, and sometimes they aren't - I believe the game has gone full-blown chaos mode. I believe they have to do this for pro players, as they figure out the meta and hero winrates and stick to that immediately...but as for casual pub ranked games, its too chaotic to ever be able to predict the outcome. Magic the gathering went through this over the decades too. It went from 2/1 creatures for 1 mana being considered strong, all the way up to god only knows what features graveyard cycling with artifact affinity and removing graveyards from game etcetc. Its almost unplayable for anyone but pros.
Nah they need their players numbers to be up. It's valve cash cow. Old dota will not attract players. You need something crazy for new generation players. It's not boomer dota anymore. Get over it.
@@HerschelVjepxa If they didn't ruin the game those boomers you refer to wouldn't have left the game.
@@EmptyJarDoto true who wants them
The mana bar thing was just terrible game design, there are a shit ton of ways to raise or lower the skill ceiling of a game, but having some skill checks be based on bad UI design is just bad. If it's public information, it should be easily accessible, hiding it behind extra clicks does not add an interesting skill check, it just makes the game more cumbersome to play, honestly felt weird how long it took for them to add this QoL change.
Another game that comes to mind is Minecraft. The game became so bloated with all new items/blocks over the years..
Thats funny you say that because minecraft is known for adding literally one type of block, one mob and a new tree every two years which people criticize. So the opposite.
It reminds me more of League of Legends that adds new hero every few months and other ones become too weak and the game gets bloated with too many characters that don’t matter
I like that they are shaking things up in Dota so it doesn't become too stale. However this time they were really lazy where half the heroes got completely new "free" stuff making them OP. The other half got nothing new instead had to sacrifice what they had so it could become "new choices".
This is insanely weird and feel completely half-done at release.
The exact same thing was said for talents and shards, things will get better as more patches are released... relax
Tbh ive not played dota 2 for ages because it always got boring and stale fast,but this new patch is actually cool. They gotta fix the map tho, its so damn colorful and chaotic i hate it. Bring back those good old dota1 maps. They were clean as f.
Boomer spotted
and your the reason y playerbase in dota are dying what they're trying to do is to make the games fun like you said u DIDNT PLAY DOTA for ages and what do u want them todo not update their game? in this way people like you and new player will get excited bcuz of this new feature and too chaotic but that makes the game popular until it die again
totally agree with u. i feel like dota needs a HUGE rollback update.
Dota 2 player since early 2013ish.
I am not a designer or anything just a big fan that loves individualtity and if everything is op nothing is op mindset. Also Notail's wise words:" Dota 2 is just a weird game you can do a million things and everything can work."
Things like this keeps the game fresh instead of 'figured out', I am pretty sure we all remember the late game stages of the patch where everything is stale and people are shitposting, complaining about new patch, picking the same hero becoming insanely predictable not enjoying to watch and so and so on.
You could say, but buff X hero and nerf Y hero. But that only temporarily places a band aid and until people figure out the next thing( or the next big patch) you would still be playing the same game just slightly less frustrated, but still frustrated. Also 6.88 was wildly considered by most people as far I remember/know the most balanced patch, yet icefrog still brought 7.00 with talents. Yet he wasn't scared of changing the things here and there and actually trying new things.
Examples of the things they added and why ( again my humble opinion).
Talents were mostly added to make so that heroes could differ depending on the stage on the game.
A big example is before if you played support in the early days, you had very little control of your own potential once the midgame/late game arrives. Since most of your potential was tied to spells and not to items considering late game you still had to give up quite a bit of farm.
Now they have the option to choose between strong midgame focus and peak there or stall and go late game and become an extra ‘core’ on the map. It’s giving more option for players to differ their playstyle and not just tied to:” Take it or leave it.”
Things like neutrals were mostly encouraged to people go jungle and make them not snow on the map. Creating a bit of fear not knowing where everyone is, but again to spike differently. In the early stages of the neutral items, I remember (if you follow the pro scene) old liquid/nigma stack would pick Huskar and just stack neutral items when they weren’t tied to a single slot to make big 20-25 min powerhouse.
Facets are again sort of the same principle as talents. But rather for drafting wise. I picked X hero I get countered but at least I have a secondary option to go for that makes us able to play and without differing too much.
Innates I could give you the example of people were forced to skill a certain skill or else they lose a big potential of their heroes’ strength >> Kunkka almost always going for tidebringer and therefore skilling torrent or x mark would just feel weird. Now he can still cleave, but not as strong at lv 1 while having torrent potential.
The only ‘problem’ (I say it’s amazing some people find it stupid) that most people have. It’s that they (Valve) encourage the players themselves to ‘fix’ all of the lacking parts. A current example is that with the current facets and innates some weren’t really focused on certain heroes compared to others. You could definitely notice where they spent more attention (dawnbreaker sun) and some don’t >>> Mirana inntate/ alch 250 extra gold. But that’s a balanced thingy and trying to balance that is sort of impossible at this stage and that’s the overwhelming part. On the other hand like I mentioned before it’s needed (you don’t want to be able to control everything, some kind of variances is needed).
TDLR: The changes are made so that heroes could differ on the occasion and not exclusively tied to a certain role. Patches don’t stall out when people figure out the meta and just stick to it. Encourages refreshing the mindset and have not 1 thing dominated, therefore have teams/players control of their individual playstyle and not tied to some 'rules'.
I wholeheartedly disagree. Patching yourself out of existence is a thing. There's a reason why dota 2 started going down after 7.00 and never recovered, only stopped falling in recent years.
It is also a wrong idea to think that patches get stale or figured out. Even nowadays players innovate in unpatched/rarely patched games like broodwar or cs.
With constant patches you literally don't let the game strategies evolve past the obvious ones. Many players are happy to learn something and then come back to it later and still be familiar with it. There's a reason players play dust 2 for over 20 years and they still aren't bored. Those who want constant change aren't true fans of the game.
I doubt 7.00 is the downhill trend considering it got released around December 2016 it still increased in player base, but only after march 2017 it decreased and besides correlation does not imply causation. There are many other factors that has caused the decline in player base and I definitely think one of them is that a lot of the player base in Dota 2 (and 1 for that matter) are your old schoolers. You know the teenagers/adolescents that played Dota 1/2 during the old days(school/studies) and then stopped playing due to things like life and other priorites or one of the less spoken one about dota 2 has become insanely large to run, in itself for those boomers. Source 1 compared to source 2 (or whatever engine shifts they had through the years) was so much smaller/easier to run, that's something I definitely do dislike of current dota 2. I am from the EU, but I heard from players in the SEA has shifted towards mobile gaming for that reason alone (their cafe' pcs were getting outdated and couldn't run it properly anymore).
Speaking about other games,
Of course you have games like SC, Dust and Aoe2 where the older generation are still playing it. Aoe 2 you even have DE version right now and it has been booming quite a big compared to the 20 years before. The difference in Aoe it got its massive overhaul and quality of life updates over time. Aoe 2 fixed so many issues that people hated, yet their loyalty was still there they just needed those changes. Furthermore I even remember RuneScape (different genre, yet it still personally implies that bringing nostalgia alone does not work) made an old-school version of the game. That version exploded in the first 3 months in player base but heavily imploded after those months. They actually had to update the game since people felt the game would become stale there wasn’t much to do. Now if you look at old-school RS now compared to back then when it (the oldschool version) was released its same yet massively updated/difference. Even right now I am seeing changes that people are voting against and voting for. That's something dota 2 does (slightly) need to be pricise how much I can't really tell now.
Back to Dota 2,
The game has simply become old and I will agree on the point you made about many people would love to come back and be familiar. The problem I see there is that you base your player base on the older generation that comes back here and there. Those players don’t stick, they might bring a few people with them back. But they don’t always stick. I feel like the bigger reason that the player base has been declining (I don’t really consider player base that great of a measurement) is that a lot of the newer player base looks quicker towards those mobile games and other faster/quick paced games. Since they are more ‘eye drawing’ and people simply don’t have the time anymore + there are so many other games to choose from >> paradox of choice plays a role in here.
Hell, Dota 2 is like 11 years old if you consider Dota 2 beta ending in July 2013 and then don’t even start about Dota 1.
About your last point I am not saying that you need to keep updates like every month or hell I remember that each 2-week patch era. Every 2 weeks of new patch was disgusting. I am agreeing that on that you need time for a patch to roll out so to say and let it play out, but you can’t keep the same patch in a massive competitive game like Dota 2 for long periods of time. Also, your last sentence is very skewered in itself. Saying that people that want constant changes aren’t true fans is very disregarding the players that have stick to the game throughout the constant changes and kept playing as it changes. I personally hated a couple of changes initially, but nothing in life/game/whatever it may be is always good or bad. There is a fundamentally opinion that differences from person to person and that is collectively tied to a group of people that stick to it.
@@Hanz264 It's a myth that people just stopped playing games due to life.
All those people that I know who put in 10k+ hours into dota before 7.00 are still gaming. The only difference is they're playing something else.
Chess is another great example of the game not getting boring and people massively playing it without any patches.
So just ask them why they are playing something differently? I did the same with the people that are in my friendlist. Most of them were along the lines of being:" I can't play as much anymore, I have become a father/mother, found a x, etc, or the game just isn't interesting anymore there are plenty of other games that doesn't take as much time. As a matter of fact most of the time I see them back is shortly after a new patch only to leave a few weeks later. I am just saying that the patch 7.00 or any patches following it isn't the causation that caused dota 2 to decline, but rather the things that weren't fixed that are not patch related stacked up. If you keep believing it so be my guest. I could even say it's a 'myth' ;).
I am not going to discuss further after this, because obiviously we have 2 different views and we are sticking to our own. You believe yours, I believe mine and that's completely fine.
The algorithm deems it worth for me to listen.
Complexity has always been the the trade mark of Dota. People who want more shallow/simple gameplay loop can go play other games.
weird to ask, honestly the answerd was "yes"
why yes you ask, simple every year dota gets a gameplay update some small some bigger then others, the adding of the watchers, the gates, removal of the jungle small shop, map overhauls, adding Neutral Items and so on.
games like dota while fun on their own require updates to change the meta and keep things fresh, and for a while the playerbase wanted new changes and big ones, the result was this patch wich you need to understand is new patch things are broken need to be reworked, but still it is a great patch because it allows for playstyles that where into the game but not quite there, for example best example is Venge Spirit she was known to be a Support but was play as Carry sometimes for her damage potential, now with facets you get support facet and carry facet taht makes her viable as a carry thanks to her facet that makes her range attack count as Melee and facets like venge spirit are an example of facets being done right, however they need balance but now Icefrog have a new tool to create new playstiles for the heros WICH if im being honest it is what Talents where sold as, but never quite realise the potential since there was an optimal path to take and few heroes have talents that you may think twice before picking it.
overall i insist that this patch was good like Talents where and jungle items where, keeps the game fresh makes you excited to play and try new things even if the first month or so its a bit of a chaotic mess, also PERMA BAN CHAOS KNIGHT they went a bit crazy with his facet
with regards to the comment regarding "Feature Creep" i have to asy it does not feel like that, passives are common in mobas now a days and the radical change that may feel a lot are facets but like all in dota just pick 1 hero at a time and play read as you go it is not so much text and you have access in game to read it too, only feels like a lot if you try to read everything at once on the patch notes
I think its good that they add new mechanics etc but they shouldnt be afraid to remove things aswel then imo
I think it's not feature creep, but more of every hero being more distinct from each other. It gives them less of a starter template where they fall under an archetype, and gives them a feel like they're from a different game altogether.
So, Silencer not being able to be silenced is a no brainer. The game's supposedly universal rules no longer apply to him by default. It's important that a game changes by a hero merely existing in a match, with no action required.
The burden of knowing every hero you are playing with or against has always been a Dota thing. Not for comlexity's sake, but for the nature of playing every match differently, outside of the new people you're playing with.
If you were to take things further, it could be at a level of Master Chief versus Dirt Rally in a game of Tetris. The goal remains static. The gameplay is variable.
So much whining, one would say that this isn't one of the best updates so far.
7.00 was the beginning of the end
We can go deeper. Rubberbanding in 6.8x patches and troll/sniper clown fiesta was the beginning of the end because it stopped growth. 7.00 was the grand entrance.
These kinds of opinions are straight up trash lmao
Like most games this doesn't "bloat" the game imo. The beauty of dota is how wide, expansive, and indepth the game really is. Relating dota to minecraft is a fucking sin imo because minecraft adds a ton of useless fucking blocks that do nothing. and in your average play through wont use 50-60% of the content. in dota sure you might not play half the heros so you might claim you won't use 50-60% of this shit either. But you will play AGAINST the heros you refuse to play and you MUST know how they work. so you WILL interact with almost everything in this game with meaningful impact.
so uh what are you talking about. Dota didnt steal heroes from other games. smh.
???
It's not cool, I still haven't played a single match since I saw the patch notes
then your opinion is total shit. i'm having a shit load of fun
innovations/changes are necessary in all forms even in games, otherwise things will be boring. maybe change your mindset to have more subscribers? lmao.
and yet somehow people play dust 2 for decades
bad innovations need to be retracted, not amended with tons of patches on top
poster has skill issue
Go play LOL