I’ve had the water issue happen before, found a low pressure switch had snapped off on a Carrier 5OTC unit, of course the switch was on the top of the suction right under a CFM. It had rained a lot in the previous days before the call. Purged the line with Nitro but u could hear water flowing in the refrigerant line. Yea customer did not want to replace he wanted it fixed, kept getting that milky oil in my vacuum. Ended up drilling a hole in the lowest point of that circuit with a zip screw(non-bit tip) and a lot more water came out. Glad the pressure switch tripped as the compressor did sound ok. Put both driers in it recharged and changed them both out after a few weeks. System has been running for 3+ years now. With minor things(caps, contactor) going wrong since.
I had the same issue with oil contamination because unit came flat without any gas and another tech did a leak search pulled a vacuum i came back next cooling season found a leak and had to replace condenser, other tech doesn’t like micron gauges, so entire time pulling a vacuum he was pulling in moisture
As mentioned below…it is an LG compressor. Not sure about that one, but I can speak from experience, the variable speed LG compressors on home refrigerators are/were terrible. It was nothing to see those fail within 6 months of purchase/installation at homes.
Extra discharge reeds are for extreme high discharge temp. One reed acts normal and the others stay close. If the discharge temp gets really hot then the extra reeds open.
@@petersmart1999 As a new starter for Denco I went to a carrier water chiller that kept tripping on LP in the winter. The long serving Denco engineer with me couldn't resolve the problem but as soon as I looked at the TXV I could see the problem. The capillary on the TXV bulb was very long and wasn't insulated so it was affecting the TXV and causing it to close down because of low ambient temperature. Wrapped capillary in armaflex insulation and problem never re occurred.👍
Wow, that was quite a lot of water! This reminds me of a project I was on last year in Korea. A large oil and gas production platform was built there, for use in the Gulf of Mexico. The place has many different split unit A/C's for the different parts of the facility. The facility was transported here to the States for final commissioning. During the first year, ALL of the compressors started failing; many shorting to ground and others seizing up. The company who represented the HVAC side of the project found water in the systems. They connected a vacuum pump and let it run. After about an hour, they returned and found the pump overflowing with oily water! They had to bring a special pump which had an oil treater unit which recirculated the oil and removed water. It collected two gallons from one of the larger systems. The investigation found out that the Korean shipyard had hydro tested all the refrigerant lines, using water. The temperature at that time of year was well below freezing in Korea. They had blown the lines with nitrogen (or more likely shipyard utility air) and then evacuated. However, there was ice in the system which, of course, didn't evacuate. I have no idea what it cost them, but the shipyard was fully responsible for this messup! I was on site working on the power generation equipment, but talked a lot with the HVAC guys and got the story. There were a couple pallets of dead compressors on the facility before I left. It was massive carnage. No telling what it cost!
@@Grauenwolf not a HVAC Tech but I imagine it would be easier to get it professionally dried. I'm sure there is a process you can follow but I imagine it takes alot of time.
Then the testing facility did something wrong. When we hydro test tanks we steam dry them while they’re upside down, then if there’s still any water in them we stick an air wand into the tank and blow it out with dry air
that's the only safe way to high pressure test a vessel, water(or other thin liquid equivalent to water). if it does fail, minimal bad things happen, as compared to filled with air or other gas that will also compress to a partial liquid and retains a massive amount of energy. a larger gas filled vessel rupturing can easily level a whole building and more, even if they do it within a huge tank of water, it can flatten a large area and leave a crater hole. 😬 💣 🧨☠️
Chris, that magnet you found in the bottom of compressor is probably used to catch metal shavings, similar to what you'd find on an oil drain plug or transmission pan on your vehicle. It failed because it's an LG.
The magnet in the bottom of the compressor doesn't look out of place to me. Automotive applications do that too. Typically your oil drain plug in your car will have a magnet on it to catch small particles of metal and keep it from getting circulated back through the system. The same thing in your transmission, there's usually a strong magnet in the pan that collects metal shavings. Looking at the big picture, I see two strong possibilities. Since the initial recovery didn't turn up all that moisture, it really makes me doubt it was in the old compressor unless you didn't take it down to a vacuum. If you didn't pull a hard vacuum on the system, then it's entirely likely that there was some severe factory moisture contamination. It could have even been sabotage by a factory worker who knew they were getting fired (I've seen that happen more often than I care to admit).
Not only did the initial recovery not turn up all that moisture, but when you see him draining the old compressor, the oil that poured out of it, looked to be clear and not contaminated. I bet, the new compressor had a small leak, where the factory did not seal it. As far as i know, compressor oil i very hygroscopic, so if the compressor had a small leak, and it was stored somewhere moist, the oil would very quickly suck up a lot of moisture. My guess is the old compressor failed mechanically, and the moisture contamination was in the oil of the new, due to the new compressor not being sealed properly. In any case, it's good craftmanship to check, and to just keep flushing until the oil is clear, so he did this very professionally.
@@ehsnils Yeah i agree....But if it does, i hope it does so, very fast, because then it will again, be a warranty repair. But yeah, that "new" compressor could be really rusted out inside...
I had a refrigerant jug of 409a that had water in it. I had like 4 systems that were all getting moisture and I couldn't figure out why, they were all 409 and I had just worked on all them. Turns out there was water in the tank. I put some liquid in a cup and when the refrigeratant boiled off there was standing water in the cup still
Hey Chris. That broken piece on the compressor is called the Oldham coupling. It keeps the moving scroll from rotating around the shaft while the compressor is running.
I have had a shop guy remove the rubber plug and let the compressor sit out on the truck over night. Cool thing was it had a sight glass on the compressor. I got to see the amount of moisture bubbling out of the oil... It was a lot and took more than a triple evacuation to get all the water trapped in the oil. I'm glad I work for another company now.
Hello Chris… I am NOT an HVAC tech, but found your videos, and love to watch you do your work. You are a superb tech in how you go over the whole picture when working on the RTU systems. I don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to your gauges readings. I’m an electrician, and understand how you check for shorted 3 phase compressors and bad contactors. I do have a company that calls me to do some of the Seimens and Novar EMS systems. I work with their tech support in replacing thermostats and their main control in the backroom, and their board in the RTUs. So I’m just touching the tip of the iceberg in remote controlled EMS HVAC and Lighting systems. I am picking up some neat tips from your videos and enjoy watching you work. Had a new store where the visitable heater never worked since the store opened. I checked for 24 volts on the thermostat, and got 0 volts. Support told me to find the control for the heater/fan. I found a transformer and contactor above the drop ceiling and was checking it out while talking with my support person. I had 208 volts on the line side of the contactor, and noticed the transformer 208 taps was on the load side of the contactor. I told my support person this don’t look right, the transformer should be on the line side of the contactor. Soon as I switched the trans to the line side all came up with the fan/heater, and my support guy said “now I can see it” I get into some crazy stuff working with these guys on the HVAC & Lighting systems. At least if we can’t get the RTU running when I swap out a thermostat or board, I can check enough other stuff in the RTU where I can tell them to get a real HVAC tech to fix the problem which is out of my scope of work on these systems. You say you don’t know everything, but in my book, you are a great tech and do really great work.
I tore apart a rebuilt starter after it failed less then a month after a buddy of mine replaced it. We tore it down and I couldn’t believe my eyes. There’s usually a set of four magnets attached inside with an armature. I pulled the end off with the brushes and when I took the thing apart All four magnets had moved around inside the housing. They were not attached to anything. I couldn’t believe me eyes. We ended up rebuilding his old starter and he’s been using it worry free for the last five years.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Compressor doesn't have reeds, those "reeds" were its check valve, odd design. Muck at top due to lack of lubrication, crazy oxidation/plating going on. Moisture was aleady in there, which means factory never evacuated properly. Hope you get to go back and change drier. One of your better videos!
I'd say the reeds are there as liquid pressure relief ports for when it gets slugged. under operation the outlet pressure on top of the reeds should be equal or higher than pressure behind the reeds within the scroll, unless there's something non-compressible, which would open the reeds and correct the harmful condition. the reed ports would also get covered up at a certain point within the rotation.
The old compressor didn't appear to have rust on the inside. I would think there would have been heavy corrosion with the amount of moisture that you pulled out of there.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
@Peter smith Normally I would agree, but the O2 could of been greatly reduced if the system was pumped down to a vacuum at any point. Water doesn't hold on to oxygen nearly as well in a vacuum because as you said, its probably going to boil off. There is likely some amount of oxygen left but not nearly enough to cause wide spread corrosion. In any case, its all hypothetical and this is an odd one.
@@mattnsac Water is an extremely stable molecule and the oxygen is not going to just randomly disassociate from the hydrogen atoms without electrical input via electrolysis or a very particular chemical reaction that is not present in most situations. If this were the case as you are saying, we could of solved energy long ago by just collecting hydrogen from the oceans from these random molecular break downs. Water being so nonreactive is part of the reason why its a good solvent. All corrosion from water comes from oxygen species, mainly plain old O2 dissolved in the water along with other things like salts.
I had a restaurant owner provide a used condenser unit, for his small walk-in freezer, that had been stored for five years in his garage. Upon delivery I noted that the king valves were open and told him it was probably highly contaminated but he insisted so I installed it with a new oversized filter and after purging it with nitrogen. Sure enough, after 2 days on the vacuum pump and a bunch of oil changes, I managed to get it below 500 microns. I charged it up and started it. Yeah, the stuff I saw in the sight glass was crazy. I'm pretty sure there was insect parts and other debris flying around the system. Knowing what I know today I should have pulled the compressor and, at the very least, changed the oil. I really think the receiver and accumulator were all contaminated beyond anything I could have cleaned up though. Sometimes you just have to say no.
No good deed goes unpunished. Was there savings at the end or were there multiple issues? I'd go as far as giving my knuckle-headed customers a questionable competitor's business info and state "some people will do anything for money, right or wrong". Most times customers will say they want it done right.
Im willing to bet it happened in manufacturing. My guess is when unit was being assembled compressors were left open to atmosphere too long before being brazed, pressure tested, and Vacuumed. Once you get moisture absorbed by POE oil it will never come out. You can clean it up but never will get it non-milky without an oil change.
18:41 What I've learned as a car mechanic: If you get yourself some rubber hose, like 8mm ID or something, you can use that as a spacer for securing lines. Cut it to desired length, put a ziptie in, loop it around pipe one and go back trough the hose, then loop it around the other pipe and tighten the ziptie. Hope it helps! Find your video's pretty interesting, systems are so much different then car a/c's
You need to consider a vfd which can do broken belt detection on the blower, some of them can do it and it is worth having on these rtu's to save the compressors from no load conditions.
@29:10, that rectangular pocket where the motor shaft goes into the lower scroll is supposed to be able to turn in the bottom of the lower scroll... If it's seized/welded in, that would be (a sign of) your problem. The fact that you dumped so much oil out of the compressor suggests to me that the oil pump was not functioning - look inside the bottom of the hollow motor shaft, there might be a piece of sheet metal in there that is supposed to pump the oil up the center of the shaft to the bearing at the top (that's seized into the lower scroll).
That finish on the cast components (guessing cast steel) that's rust they should be a light silver/grey 🤔 that thing must have been swimming in water for that to happen. that bluing on the shell is likely from assembly everything will be an interference fit which they likely heat the shell up and expand it and drop it over the rotating assembly and it all locks together when the shell cools and contracts. it's concerning how much moisture was in that system though one thing I can think of that could have contributed to the cause of the failure is the water freezing and blocking the txv and causing an intermittent high head pressure scenario.
That was copper plating from the moisture becoming acidic which pulls copper from the refrigerant lines. It gets squeezed back out of solution and deposited on tight spaces such as bearing clearances and between the scroll sets.
The magnet is what everyone else is saying. Those reeds and ports could be for over-pressure relief or if it gets flooded to relieve the liquid (over-pressure). Since those ports were along the scroll.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Had a plate heat exchanger burst on a chiller the other day. Tried to purge the water out of the condenser coils and system. Oil looked like that after vacuuming over 2 weeks.
I feel like the reeds in the scroll is there to be able to handle liquid flooding into the compressor, with the reeds if there is liquid in the scroll then it can squirt up instead of creating a massive backpressure on the shaft as it tries to compress a liquid.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
May I suggest - that you don't say I'm not the best, as this will give the public reason to do what they are doing in {we'll wait and see} scenario ...For what I see you do very good work..
LG, Samsung, GE(Made by Samsung for GE) all have these kinds of problems, and Ironically, GE makes both LG and Samsung Major Household Appliances in Korea
26:46 forgive my HVAC ignorance, but is that magnet to catch metal filings that may break off during its lifespan? They do this a lot in transmissions and differentials on cars....
The nitrogen in the tank would only have a partial pressure of water and it would be small due to the low molecular weight of water at 18. . If there was excessive water the tank would have sloshed How much water in grams do you think was in the compressor?
The darkened steel shell is from when they assembled the stator to the compressor shell. They induction heat the steel to expand it to allow the stator to drop in.
AC units should shut down when belts break. Manufacturers could have that happen if they could be bothered -- but we all know that they can't be bothered.
They have a handke bar that goes through that eye lit o. The top.of the compressor you hook.it through the eyelit and wraps the compressor which it makes them super easy to lift.
The varnish on the copper wire and the string around the windings all contain moisture. A low charge condition makes the compressor run hot, driving moisture out of the windings. You see things in that hot climate I never see in Portland Oregon.
Chris, did you let that moisture settle out to measure how many oz there were? Would the moisture content give a false reading of the state of charge you were seeing on your gauges? Did you cut the dryer apart to see if the moisture clogged it? When you drained the oil from the compressor into the orange bucket did any moisture settle out? Just thinkin.
I'm going to guess the water was in your blue vacuum hose.. Perhaps an errant water hose when cleaning coils splashed onto the end when it was disconnected at your last job before before this one. Or the new compressor had the water in it.. If the old compressor had that much water in a hot compressor that mild steel would have been 100% rust on the inside even with oil splashing around. Very strange indeed.
Not a fan of the LG compressors. I've found dozens dead within 3 years on package units. Even equipment that was factory commissioned. It really seems like they cut every corner to save money when making them
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
I have noticed LG Compressors can’t handle flooded starts. I watch the condensation line on my replacement compressors. ( similar to the way you watch receivers for winter charge ) and if the condensation is high on the compressor. There is a feeding issue with the TXV. Some TXV’s can carefully be adjusted others I have to change out with an adjustable TXV. The moisture issue has to be from the factory. 😊Hope that helps.
Also micro channel coils in Phoenix on high ambient days cause flooded starts and main breaker or HP Safeties to trip and weaken. I’ve called Trane and got permission to pull out 5-10% of the charge to help prevent this issue. This happens to all many here. AAON,TRANE,LENNOX,HASKRIS ( Process chillers ) all responded after a small adjustment. Had a bunch to do this summer. Most extremes were on systems too close to a parapit wall or systems picking up discharge air from other systems. Poor condenser air flow. Hope that helps next summer. Now we get geared up for low ambient 😊
Just seeing this video, I was in the hospital for 3 months and almost died at one point. I took a job a few years back from another contractor that couldnt get the job finished, turned out his guy, that he had just fired, poured water into the new compressor prior to installation.
To someone that understands when i was a working man the worst day of the year to work was the day after Thanksgiving. Just not into it after eating and drinking to much and hanging out with family. watching football etc. You had to fight mall traffic, extremely busy kitchens. I know i just oozed the attitude with managers IDK.
I replaced a coil on a industrial Hyde drier for a tannery. The factory used water to pressure test the coil. Same problem with the vacuum pump oil. Had to change it about ten times. We even purged the coil with dry nitrogen before we started. I’ve had nitrogen bottles with water on the bottom. I would tip that cylinder over once it’s empty and see if water drips out. Flooded starts = cause of most compressor failures.
I had a Trane heat pump that I worked on a bit ago that had a leak in the discharge line. I repaired the discharge line. When I evacuated it I had to change my vacuum pump oil 7 times before it had clear oil. I was beginning to think I had a leak. It was just that much moisture in the system.
The only time I've seen that is when there was still refrigerant in the system and I was pulling a vacuum. The isolation valve was bleeding by and the oil in my pump turned white, even after changing it multiple times.
It comes down to our electricity costs ..... I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 12/20/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) on TH-cam come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/UKCMOJE_rmU/w-d-xo.html
22:28 if moisture was from the old compressor, would that moisture cause freezing "inside" the low side? 26:51 car oil pan drain plugs are also magnetic with purpose of capturing metallic bits
30 degree superheat with no load, with a load on there that compressor must've been cookin ! lol it's a shame lennox didn't give the unit adjustable valves
So true Chris if its not working out it’s because you are doing something wrong. Have had to walk away and come back to a problem and it just sorts its self out. Thanks for sharing love your videos keep on learning as I watch.
Just curious why would you put in vapor only if your supposed to use liquid only to charge wouldn’t that cause fragmentation of the refrigerant or does it take lot of vapor charge to cause that ?
Hey man, I fix appliances for living, and I can tell you these South Korean brands LG and Samsung are the worst of the worst. Low quality materials, low quality assembly. Just very shitty manufacturers.
The manufacturer of the system or LG would be paying for that job in full (Moisture related- just over a year old). I won't buy equipment with LG compressors. Your nitrogen was fine. You don't get moisture in a hermetically sealed system because of flooded starts.
I may have a possible explanation.. The nitrogen tanks had loads of water in them . How that happens .... well.... When I worked at a prison ( as an employee) they had equipment but as far as supplies, forget it . So we would end up using refrigerant for leak checks . they kept us in refrigerant cause the office people system leaked and they were not about to sweat.. Well one day I got the idea instead of breaking federal law how about we use the recovery machine and pump air into the nitrogen tanks . We could get 500psi that way if we used three tanks we could pressure test a big system. This took forever but all you had in prison is time and inmates carried the tanks so whatever . Yes this would introduce moisture but I figured if we vacuumed it long enough we would get it back out .. we did this for a year. Well finally new budget and we actually got approved for some nitrogen tank swaps. The guy hands us the new tanks and I have the old ones up. the new tanks definitely weighed less than the ones we were turning in. Years later I talked to someone that refills those tanks and he said if they still had pressure he would just refill it and send it back out. You may have got a tank like that . I really tried to keep the crap running . when I got there they didn't even have recovery tanks, I made a bunch out of old catch cans I scavenged from the corrections junk area. I get this seems like it's a bunch of bull , but here is an unlisted video I have inside of my workshop ,outside of the prison fence , where I cobbled together a system using a two ton r22 240v window unit compressor ,a 410a mini split condenser and a R22 two ton air handler . Best I could get was an 18 degree split when I installed it but I installed it in 2018 and last I heard it still works today in the shake down room for when inmates have to strip search when they get in from work ,now it's 75 to 80 instead of 100 to 110 in there ... this is prison ingenuity th-cam.com/video/De_LYXMQneM/w-d-xo.html
Just a heads up for you and your viewers, most recovery bottles have some numbers stamped into or around the handle, the TW is the tare weight and WC is the weight content, so no need to weigh an empty tank prior to recovery
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Nice, all this time I was calculating 80% of the WC to determine how full I can fill a bottle. I didn’t know it meant water capacity, good to know. Thanks!
@@bryanharayda1975hell yeah man. HVAC school has some info on using WC and specific gravity to determine fill. They have a nice calculator too on the app.
Went to comission a water chiller and found no water flow switch was installed.Advised customer that it was imperative that a water flow switch should be fitted and he said it wasn't needed as the chiller was interlocked with the chilled water pump and wouldn't run without the pump running. Few weeks later got called to site as the chiller wasn't running and found the whole system was empty of gas and full of water. Had to fit a new water chiller as evaporator was split and compressor was stuffed.Two weeks spent purging with nitrogen and continually evacuating the system until the system was dry. Guess what,customer asked for a flow switch to be fitted.
It failed cause LG compressors are junk Trane had a bunch of issues with them now a lot of manufacturers are using them also they don’t come close to the quality of copelands scroll!
Quicker to break with nitro when there is moisture in the system. I work on a lot of water cooled chillers. Triple evac is standard. Actually quicker to break with nitro
"entire contents of the van on the roof" yea I felt that one
Now imagine if that job is in Montreal Canada in January up on that roof. I could do California in my sleep. LOL
and in my dreams
@@k.sullivan6303 As a guy from Texas I'd have to nope out of the in January anywhere up north. Guess it's not much different than me in August
i work natural gas but don't touch f gas - always feel glad i don't when i see the sheer amount of stuff you guys have to drag around site. brutal.
He should just get the crane out to bring the van up on some of these jobs 😂😂
I’ve had the water issue happen before, found a low pressure switch had snapped off on a Carrier 5OTC unit, of course the switch was on the top of the suction right under a CFM. It had rained a lot in the previous days before the call. Purged the line with Nitro but u could hear water flowing in the refrigerant line. Yea customer did not want to replace he wanted it fixed, kept getting that milky oil in my vacuum. Ended up drilling a hole in the lowest point of that circuit with a zip screw(non-bit tip) and a lot more water came out. Glad the pressure switch tripped as the compressor did sound ok. Put both driers in it recharged and changed them both out after a few weeks. System has been running for 3+ years now. With minor things(caps, contactor) going wrong since.
I had the same issue with oil contamination because unit came flat without any gas and another tech did a leak search pulled a vacuum i came back next cooling season found a leak and had to replace condenser, other tech doesn’t like micron gauges, so entire time pulling a vacuum he was pulling in moisture
As mentioned below…it is an LG compressor. Not sure about that one, but I can speak from experience, the variable speed LG compressors on home refrigerators are/were terrible. It was nothing to see those fail within 6 months of purchase/installation at homes.
Extra discharge reeds are for extreme high discharge temp. One reed acts normal and the others stay close. If the discharge temp gets really hot then the extra reeds open.
Never been this early before.
That is not an A/C unit. It's a milkshake machine.
No insulation on the TXV bulb ?, or is that just for refrigeration ?
Txv bulb should always be insulated,that way there is no interference from ambient air!
@@petersmart1999 That's what I thought too, but clearly there is none on this unit.
@@petersmart1999 As a new starter for Denco I went to a carrier water chiller that kept tripping on LP in the winter.
The long serving Denco engineer with me couldn't resolve the problem but as soon as I looked at the TXV I could see the problem.
The capillary on the TXV bulb was very long and wasn't insulated so it was affecting the TXV and causing it to close down because of low ambient temperature.
Wrapped capillary in armaflex insulation and problem never re occurred.👍
and you are using non metric units. nananahh
Wow, that was quite a lot of water!
This reminds me of a project I was on last year in Korea. A large oil and gas production platform was built there, for use in the Gulf of Mexico. The place has many different split unit A/C's for the different parts of the facility.
The facility was transported here to the States for final commissioning. During the first year, ALL of the compressors started failing; many shorting to ground and others seizing up. The company who represented the HVAC side of the project found water in the systems. They connected a vacuum pump and let it run. After about an hour, they returned and found the pump overflowing with oily water! They had to bring a special pump which had an oil treater unit which recirculated the oil and removed water. It collected two gallons from one of the larger systems.
The investigation found out that the Korean shipyard had hydro tested all the refrigerant lines, using water. The temperature at that time of year was well below freezing in Korea. They had blown the lines with nitrogen (or more likely shipyard utility air) and then evacuated. However, there was ice in the system which, of course, didn't evacuate. I have no idea what it cost them, but the shipyard was fully responsible for this messup!
I was on site working on the power generation equipment, but talked a lot with the HVAC guys and got the story. There were a couple pallets of dead compressors on the facility before I left. It was massive carnage. No telling what it cost!
maddog 2 at samsung?
@@zachstone1939
LOL how the hell did you guess that!
Our recovery tanks get hydro-tested every so often. We had one come back with almost a quart of water in it.
@@Grauenwolf not a HVAC Tech but I imagine it would be easier to get it professionally dried. I'm sure there is a process you can follow but I imagine it takes alot of time.
Then the testing facility did something wrong. When we hydro test tanks we steam dry them while they’re upside down, then if there’s still any water in them we stick an air wand into the tank and blow it out with dry air
@@Grauenwolf Just dumped it and pulled a good vac.
@@Grauenwolf in theory if you pull a vac on it it will all dry out.
that's the only safe way to high pressure test a vessel, water(or other thin liquid equivalent to water). if it does fail, minimal bad things happen, as compared to filled with air or other gas that will also compress to a partial liquid and retains a massive amount of energy. a larger gas filled vessel rupturing can easily level a whole building and more, even if they do it within a huge tank of water, it can flatten a large area and leave a crater hole. 😬 💣 🧨☠️
Chris, that magnet you found in the bottom of compressor is probably used to catch metal shavings, similar to what you'd find on an oil drain plug or transmission pan on your vehicle. It failed because it's an LG.
What slander. I had a LG compressor work just fine for 3 months once.
@@analogmoz * Guinness Book of World Records would like to know your location *
I thought the same thing about that magnet in the bottom!
@@analogmoz Wow! Must have been the one that was built on a Wednesday.
@@analogmoz no way, we demand proof.
The magnet in the bottom of the compressor doesn't look out of place to me. Automotive applications do that too. Typically your oil drain plug in your car will have a magnet on it to catch small particles of metal and keep it from getting circulated back through the system. The same thing in your transmission, there's usually a strong magnet in the pan that collects metal shavings.
Looking at the big picture, I see two strong possibilities. Since the initial recovery didn't turn up all that moisture, it really makes me doubt it was in the old compressor unless you didn't take it down to a vacuum. If you didn't pull a hard vacuum on the system, then it's entirely likely that there was some severe factory moisture contamination. It could have even been sabotage by a factory worker who knew they were getting fired (I've seen that happen more often than I care to admit).
Not only did the initial recovery not turn up all that moisture, but when you see him draining the old compressor, the oil that poured out of it, looked to be clear and not contaminated.
I bet, the new compressor had a small leak, where the factory did not seal it.
As far as i know, compressor oil i very hygroscopic, so if the compressor had a small leak, and it was stored somewhere moist, the oil would very quickly suck up a lot of moisture.
My guess is the old compressor failed mechanically, and the moisture contamination was in the oil of the new, due to the new compressor not being sealed properly.
In any case, it's good craftmanship to check, and to just keep flushing until the oil is clear, so he did this very professionally.
@@JohnDoe-bd5sz Just hope that this unit don't die soon again due to the moisture because it could have corroded the new compressor pretty badly.
@@ehsnils Yeah i agree....But if it does, i hope it does so, very fast, because then it will again, be a warranty repair.
But yeah, that "new" compressor could be really rusted out inside...
The compressor was sealed, When they removed the shipping plugs, the case was pressurised. 14:25
@@stephenwalls9277 But for how long was it at the factory unsealed. Maybe it was not pressurised at once, when it came off the line.
I had a refrigerant jug of 409a that had water in it. I had like 4 systems that were all getting moisture and I couldn't figure out why, they were all 409 and I had just worked on all them. Turns out there was water in the tank. I put some liquid in a cup and when the refrigeratant boiled off there was standing water in the cup still
Damn that’s not good
Hey Chris.
That broken piece on the compressor is called the Oldham coupling. It keeps the moving scroll from rotating around the shaft while the compressor is running.
That poor compressor was tortured, refused to say where the others were, and was murdered for it
I have had a shop guy remove the rubber plug and let the compressor sit out on the truck over night. Cool thing was it had a sight glass on the compressor. I got to see the amount of moisture bubbling out of the oil... It was a lot and took more than a triple evacuation to get all the water trapped in the oil. I'm glad I work for another company now.
Hello Chris…
I am NOT an HVAC tech, but found your videos, and love to watch you do your work. You are a superb tech in how you go over the whole picture when working on the RTU systems. I don’t know what you are talking about when it comes to your gauges readings. I’m an electrician, and understand how you check for shorted 3 phase compressors and bad contactors. I do have a company that calls me to do some of the Seimens and Novar EMS systems. I work with their tech support in replacing thermostats and their main control in the backroom, and their board in the RTUs. So I’m just touching the tip of the iceberg in remote controlled EMS HVAC and Lighting systems. I am picking up some neat tips from your videos and enjoy watching you work. Had a new store where the visitable heater never worked since the store opened. I checked for 24 volts on the thermostat, and got 0 volts. Support told me to find the control for the heater/fan. I found a transformer and contactor above the drop ceiling and was checking it out while talking with my support person. I had 208 volts on the line side of the contactor, and noticed the transformer 208 taps was on the load side of the contactor. I told my support person this don’t look right, the transformer should be on the line side of the contactor. Soon as I switched the trans to the line side all came up with the fan/heater, and my support guy said “now I can see it” I get into some crazy stuff working with these guys on the HVAC & Lighting systems. At least if we can’t get the RTU running when I swap out a thermostat or board, I can check enough other stuff in the RTU where I can tell them to get a real HVAC tech to fix the problem which is out of my scope of work on these systems.
You say you don’t know everything, but in my book, you are a great tech and do really great work.
I tore apart a rebuilt starter after it failed less then a month after a buddy of mine replaced it. We tore it down and I couldn’t believe my eyes. There’s usually a set of four magnets attached inside with an armature. I pulled the end off with the brushes and when I took the thing apart All four magnets had moved around inside the housing. They were not attached to anything. I couldn’t believe me eyes. We ended up rebuilding his old starter and he’s been using it worry free for the last five years.
Could have the moisture come from the recovery tank when you recovered and reused refrigerant from the first visit?
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Compressor doesn't have reeds, those "reeds" were its check valve, odd design. Muck at top due to lack of lubrication, crazy oxidation/plating going on. Moisture was aleady in there, which means factory never evacuated properly. Hope you get to go back and change drier. One of your better videos!
I'd say the reeds are there as liquid pressure relief ports for when it gets slugged.
under operation the outlet pressure on top of the reeds should be equal or higher than pressure behind the reeds within the scroll, unless there's something non-compressible, which would open the reeds and correct the harmful condition. the reed ports would also get covered up at a certain point within the rotation.
It's interesting that the dryer didn't plug or the txv didn't fail. That was quite a bit of moisture.
The old compressor didn't appear to have rust on the inside. I would think there would have been heavy corrosion with the amount of moisture that you pulled out of there.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
If there is no oxygen in the system there will not be corrosion even with water.
@Peter smith Normally I would agree, but the O2 could of been greatly reduced if the system was pumped down to a vacuum at any point. Water doesn't hold on to oxygen nearly as well in a vacuum because as you said, its probably going to boil off. There is likely some amount of oxygen left but not nearly enough to cause wide spread corrosion. In any case, its all hypothetical and this is an odd one.
@@hgbugalou Water is 1/3 oxygen. If that was the case, any cars, boats or planes that went in the water should look as good as the day they submerged.
@@mattnsac Water is an extremely stable molecule and the oxygen is not going to just randomly disassociate from the hydrogen atoms without electrical input via electrolysis or a very particular chemical reaction that is not present in most situations. If this were the case as you are saying, we could of solved energy long ago by just collecting hydrogen from the oceans from these random molecular break downs. Water being so nonreactive is part of the reason why its a good solvent. All corrosion from water comes from oxygen species, mainly plain old O2 dissolved in the water along with other things like salts.
I had a restaurant owner provide a used condenser unit, for his small walk-in freezer, that had been stored for five years in his garage. Upon delivery I noted that the king valves were open and told him it was probably highly contaminated but he insisted so I installed it with a new oversized filter and after purging it with nitrogen. Sure enough, after 2 days on the vacuum pump and a bunch of oil changes, I managed to get it below 500 microns. I charged it up and started it. Yeah, the stuff I saw in the sight glass was crazy. I'm pretty sure there was insect parts and other debris flying around the system. Knowing what I know today I should have pulled the compressor and, at the very least, changed the oil. I really think the receiver and accumulator were all contaminated beyond anything I could have cleaned up though. Sometimes you just have to say no.
No good deed goes unpunished. Was there savings at the end or were there multiple issues? I'd go as far as giving my knuckle-headed customers a questionable competitor's business info and state "some people will do anything for money, right or wrong". Most times customers will say they want it done right.
@@lopaka79 lol just send it if that’s what he wants, I would give him my advice but if he wants to pay me over and over, why not
Lol that’s messed up beyond what a vacuum can fix
1
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Im willing to bet it happened in manufacturing. My guess is when unit was being assembled compressors were left open to atmosphere too long before being brazed, pressure tested, and Vacuumed. Once you get moisture absorbed by POE oil it will never come out. You can clean it up but never will get it non-milky without an oil change.
18:41 What I've learned as a car mechanic: If you get yourself some rubber hose, like 8mm ID or something, you can use that as a spacer for securing lines. Cut it to desired length, put a ziptie in, loop it around pipe one and go back trough the hose, then loop it around the other pipe and tighten the ziptie. Hope it helps!
Find your video's pretty interesting, systems are so much different then car a/c's
That's a great tip (not a hack but an actual solution)!
You need to consider a vfd which can do broken belt detection on the blower, some of them can do it and it is worth having on these rtu's to save the compressors from no load conditions.
It had a VFD on it. It was located by the compressor. Looked like it was a Mitsubishi VFD
@29:10, that rectangular pocket where the motor shaft goes into the lower scroll is supposed to be able to turn in the bottom of the lower scroll... If it's seized/welded in, that would be (a sign of) your problem. The fact that you dumped so much oil out of the compressor suggests to me that the oil pump was not functioning - look inside the bottom of the hollow motor shaft, there might be a piece of sheet metal in there that is supposed to pump the oil up the center of the shaft to the bearing at the top (that's seized into the lower scroll).
That finish on the cast components (guessing cast steel) that's rust they should be a light silver/grey 🤔 that thing must have been swimming in water for that to happen.
that bluing on the shell is likely from assembly everything will be an interference fit which they likely heat the shell up and expand it and drop it over the rotating assembly and it all locks together when the shell cools and contracts.
it's concerning how much moisture was in that system though one thing I can think of that could have contributed to the cause of the failure is the water freezing and blocking the txv and causing an intermittent high head pressure scenario.
That was copper plating from the moisture becoming acidic which pulls copper from the refrigerant lines. It gets squeezed back out of solution and deposited on tight spaces such as bearing clearances and between the scroll sets.
Everytime I come across a LG compressor that is bad I retrofit to a Copeland. Have never had any luck with them.
The magnet is what everyone else is saying. Those reeds and ports could be for over-pressure relief or if it gets flooded to relieve the liquid (over-pressure). Since those ports were along the scroll.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Good video Chris . I believe your nitro tank had CO2 instead of Nitro . Happen to me 🤭😀😅
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
I like your videos because i find it interesting now this stuff works. Keep up with the cool videos man
27:04 Like he mentioned, that tarnish looks like "bluing" if that casing is steel.
Had a plate heat exchanger burst on a chiller the other day. Tried to purge the water out of the condenser coils and system. Oil looked like that after vacuuming over 2 weeks.
magnets are common. the welds are spot welds.
that junk in the bearings is from a spun bearing.
I feel like the reeds in the scroll is there to be able to handle liquid flooding into the compressor, with the reeds if there is liquid in the scroll then it can squirt up instead of creating a massive backpressure on the shaft as it tries to compress a liquid.
never seen vacuum pump oil look like that before, cool video.
I love watching someone else work while I just sit here, makes my coffee taste better
Early video nice Saturday evening surprise!
Love your autopsy. Neat.
The moisture issue with compressor is probably factory. Had a residential unit (lg) with same problem, took forever to clear up.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
May I suggest - that you don't say I'm not the best, as this will give the public reason to do what they are doing in {we'll wait and see} scenario ...For what I see you do very good work..
LG, Samsung, GE(Made by Samsung for GE) all have these kinds of problems, and Ironically, GE makes both LG and Samsung Major Household Appliances in Korea
26:46 forgive my HVAC ignorance, but is that magnet to catch metal filings that may break off during its lifespan? They do this a lot in transmissions and differentials on cars....
If it is an LG compressor, it is most likely stolen technology. I know, I used to work for LG in Tech Support.
The nitrogen in the tank would only have a partial pressure of water and it would be small due to the low molecular weight of water at 18. . If there was excessive water the tank would have sloshed How much water in grams do you think was in the compressor?
The darkened steel shell is from when they assembled the stator to the compressor shell. They induction heat the steel to expand it to allow the stator to drop in.
AC units should shut down when belts break. Manufacturers could have that happen if they could be bothered -- but we all know that they can't be bothered.
They have a handke bar that goes through that eye lit o. The top.of the compressor you hook.it through the eyelit and wraps the compressor which it makes them super easy to lift.
I would guess the reeds and the weird shape on the scroll are to make smoother output from the compressor.
Hey - do you ever use pig mats or other oil absorbent sheets to keep the oil from getting on the roofing and for other oil cleanup?
The varnish on the copper wire and the string around the windings all contain moisture. A low charge condition makes the compressor run hot, driving moisture out of the windings. You see things in that hot climate I never see in Portland Oregon.
The only info i have on LG is they SUCK.
I will not buy LG anything ever again.
I hate trane driers. Seriously who makes a drier 3/8 on one side and 5/8.on the other side.
Chris, did you let that moisture settle out to measure how many oz there were? Would the moisture content give a false reading of the state of charge you were seeing on your gauges? Did you cut the dryer apart to see if the moisture clogged it? When you drained the oil from the compressor into the orange bucket did any moisture settle out? Just thinkin.
I'm going to guess the water was in your blue vacuum hose.. Perhaps an errant water hose when cleaning coils splashed onto the end when it was disconnected at your last job before before this one. Or the new compressor had the water in it.. If the old compressor had that much water in a hot compressor that mild steel would have been 100% rust on the inside even with oil splashing around. Very strange indeed.
Not a fan of the LG compressors. I've found dozens dead within 3 years on package units. Even equipment that was factory commissioned. It really seems like they cut every corner to save money when making them
That's how you get to the top with mass-produced products. Yay consumerism. "Which one's cheapest?"
JB Black Gold is the best vacuum pump oil,hands down!
0:16 Did they put lemon juice into their compressor or something? 😆
Rust cannot happen in absence of oxigen.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
I have noticed LG Compressors can’t handle flooded starts. I watch the condensation line on my replacement compressors. ( similar to the way you watch receivers for winter charge ) and if the condensation is high on the compressor. There is a feeding issue with the TXV. Some TXV’s can carefully be adjusted others I have to change out with an adjustable TXV. The moisture issue has to be from the factory. 😊Hope that helps.
Also micro channel coils in Phoenix on high ambient days cause flooded starts and main breaker or HP Safeties to trip and weaken. I’ve called Trane and got permission to pull out 5-10% of the charge to help prevent this issue. This happens to all many here. AAON,TRANE,LENNOX,HASKRIS ( Process chillers ) all responded after a small adjustment. Had a bunch to do this summer. Most extremes were on systems too close to a parapit wall or systems picking up discharge air from other systems. Poor condenser air flow. Hope that helps next summer. Now we get geared up for low ambient 😊
Just seeing this video, I was in the hospital for 3 months and almost died at one point. I took a job a few years back from another contractor that couldnt get the job finished, turned out his guy, that he had just fired, poured water into the new compressor prior to installation.
hilarious u fired up the AC to go eat lunch in the restaurant then turn it off after again
Notification squad on the job
so how did the moisture get in? Water cooled condenser?
Excellent video, and really liked the brazing montage music!
Elfl Voyager Purple es la música.
pretty good numbers for a compressor full of water
To someone that understands when i was a working man the worst day of the year to work was the day after Thanksgiving. Just not into it after eating and drinking to much and hanging out with family. watching football etc. You had to fight mall traffic, extremely busy kitchens. I know i just oozed the attitude with managers IDK.
Leaking trader core what a pain in the arse.
Lucky Goldstar Kwality!
I replaced a coil on a industrial Hyde drier for a tannery. The factory used water to pressure test the coil. Same problem with the vacuum pump oil. Had to change it about ten times. We even purged the coil with dry nitrogen before we started. I’ve had nitrogen bottles with water on the bottom. I would tip that cylinder over once it’s empty and see if water drips out. Flooded starts = cause of most compressor failures.
I had a Trane heat pump that I worked on a bit ago that had a leak in the discharge line. I repaired the discharge line. When I evacuated it I had to change my vacuum pump oil 7 times before it had clear oil. I was beginning to think I had a leak. It was just that much moisture in the system.
The only time I've seen that is when there was still refrigerant in the system and I was pulling a vacuum. The isolation valve was bleeding by and the oil in my pump turned white, even after changing it multiple times.
What That Is Interesting. Also i love your videos
Why wouldn't they be using a heat pump in Southern California?
It comes down to our electricity costs ..... I will discuss this on my livestream this evening 12/20/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) on TH-cam come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/UKCMOJE_rmU/w-d-xo.html
22:28 if moisture was from the old compressor, would that moisture cause freezing "inside" the low side?
26:51 car oil pan drain plugs are also magnetic with purpose of capturing metallic bits
30 degree superheat with no load, with a load on there that compressor must've been cookin ! lol it's a shame lennox didn't give the unit adjustable valves
Derrick eres el mejor!
Derrick sería interesante verte a tí con una tablet y viendo los mismos parámetros te facilitaría el trabajo.
So true Chris if its not working out it’s because you are doing something wrong. Have had to walk away and come back to a problem and it just sorts its self out. Thanks for sharing love your videos keep on learning as I watch.
It's also taking your mind off the problem for a while. I've solved many engineering issues by walking away for a while.
Just curious why would you put in vapor only if your supposed to use liquid only to charge wouldn’t that cause fragmentation of the refrigerant or does it take lot of vapor charge to cause that ?
Great!!! ❤
Those LG compressors are garbage.
Hey man, I fix appliances for living, and I can tell you these South Korean brands LG and Samsung are the worst of the worst. Low quality materials, low quality assembly. Just very shitty manufacturers.
Hvacr back with a amazing video
Try setting your camera the manual focus cuz I think you're using a smartphone and the autofocus is messing with you
The manufacturer of the system or LG would be paying for that job in full (Moisture related- just over a year old). I won't buy equipment with LG compressors.
Your nitrogen was fine. You don't get moisture in a hermetically sealed system because of flooded starts.
I may have a possible explanation.. The nitrogen tanks had loads of water in them . How that happens .... well.... When I worked at a prison ( as an employee) they had equipment but as far as supplies, forget it . So we would end up using refrigerant for leak checks . they kept us in refrigerant cause the office people system leaked and they were not about to sweat.. Well one day I got the idea instead of breaking federal law how about we use the recovery machine and pump air into the nitrogen tanks . We could get 500psi that way if we used three tanks we could pressure test a big system. This took forever but all you had in prison is time and inmates carried the tanks so whatever . Yes this would introduce moisture but I figured if we vacuumed it long enough we would get it back out .. we did this for a year. Well finally new budget and we actually got approved for some nitrogen tank swaps. The guy hands us the new tanks and I have the old ones up. the new tanks definitely weighed less than the ones we were turning in. Years later I talked to someone that refills those tanks and he said if they still had pressure he would just refill it and send it back out. You may have got a tank like that . I really tried to keep the crap running . when I got there they didn't even have recovery tanks, I made a bunch out of old catch cans I scavenged from the corrections junk area. I get this seems like it's a bunch of bull , but here is an unlisted video I have inside of my workshop ,outside of the prison fence , where I cobbled together a system using a two ton r22 240v window unit compressor ,a 410a mini split condenser and a R22 two ton air handler . Best I could get was an 18 degree split when I installed it but I installed it in 2018 and last I heard it still works today in the shake down room for when inmates have to strip search when they get in from work ,now it's 75 to 80 instead of 100 to 110 in there ... this is prison ingenuity th-cam.com/video/De_LYXMQneM/w-d-xo.html
Spot welds if the tips wear down you may not get good fusion with every weld epically if the tips start getting too wide
Just a heads up for you and your viewers, most recovery bottles have some numbers stamped into or around the handle, the TW is the tare weight and WC is the weight content, so no need to weigh an empty tank prior to recovery
WC is water capacity
When ounces (grams) matter, you weight the tank. It's a simple 3s process. Just like pushing the "zero" on the scale.
I will discuss this on my live stream this evening on TH-cam 11/29/21 @ 5:PM (pacific) come over and check it out th-cam.com/video/jaqX-Q3oC84/w-d-xo.html
Nice, all this time I was calculating 80% of the WC to determine how full I can fill a bottle. I didn’t know it meant water capacity, good to know. Thanks!
@@bryanharayda1975hell yeah man. HVAC school has some info on using WC and specific gravity to determine fill. They have a nice calculator too on the app.
Went to comission a water chiller and found no water flow switch was installed.Advised customer that it was imperative that a water flow switch should be fitted and he said it wasn't needed as the chiller was interlocked with the chilled water pump and wouldn't run without the pump running.
Few weeks later got called to site as the chiller wasn't running and found the whole system was empty of gas and full of water.
Had to fit a new water chiller as evaporator was split and compressor was stuffed.Two weeks spent purging with nitrogen and continually evacuating the system until the system was dry.
Guess what,customer asked for a flow switch to be fitted.
Why wouldn't you change out compressor, and dryer after evac, blow out with nitrogen... Where the he'll did the water come from that's alot of water
It failed cause LG compressors are junk Trane had a bunch of issues with them now a lot of manufacturers are using them also they don’t come close to the quality of copelands scroll!
Quicker to break with nitro when there is moisture in the system. I work on a lot of water cooled chillers. Triple evac is standard. Actually quicker to break with nitro
I believe you're right but I don't know where you live but in Canada the freeze stat sets a code all the time especially with an economizer
Lots of water ------- Sometimes somebody will mess with you. If you know what I mean!
why is there random walk in freezer/cooler equipment? when you were cutting the compresser?
15:17 What happened to your wrist mate? Looks like a 2-3rd degree burn!
What about smell? That much moisture should be easily identified by the acidic smell
Are moisture contamination from refrigerants and oils over heated to spoiled ?
Big picture diagnosis, that's interesting