Frank one thing you might try to replace the brush material is some vinyl plastic strips like you see in cold storage facilities to let people and forklifts through. We did this with our cnc routers at work. Some plastic around 0.02-.03 thick works fine. wrap a piece around the dust collector and cut slots every 1/2" or so. I you only have some thinner material, use two layers and alternate the slits in the plastic. One thing is to not make the strips longer than the distance from the edge to the cutter or they may get sucked in and cut off :-) Especially when using a planing cutter to flatten the spoil board. James
I've also seen someone use a piece of clear plastic from a bottle, but I'm not exactly sure of the results. Maybe just a 2-3" piece in front of the bit so you could watch it work.
I can see that working. I've made eye protectors from a mayonnaise jar, and drawer slides from clorox bottles (which is thin HDPE). So many reusable plastics out there.
I can confirm that this works- it's what we did at a local makerspace. The one problem we were having was it kept sucking in and collapsing, which wasn't a big enough problem for us to put effort into fixing. I's sure Frank can figure something out about that if he runs into that problem.
I can't help but thinking as i watch this that at some point the brush material may get stuck or pushed back enough in the piece that is being cut, and it becomes entangled with the bit. I suppose a single piece of a plastic brush will just get cut off, but wouldn't using a bigger piece like vinyl strips risk this kind of entanglement and damage to the cnc?
Hi Frank, the CNC machine I sometimes use has a big enclosure which is somewhat transparent and then an opaque shoe you can lower if needed. Both make it real hard to see what's happening so I decided to add a small camera inside the shoe. You can get a decent 1080p camera and a Raspberry Pi for very reasonable price and as a bonus you get CNC cam shots for the channel. You can take the bend out of your plastic parts by heating them with a hot air gun and bending by hand. Just go slow, and work out the correct temperature on scraps beforehand. Great videos, it really makes my day when a new one shows up :)
I've got a similar terrain map of Mt. Hood hanging on the wall of my shop. We made it on our CNC when I worked at OMSI. It was a proof-of-concept for a bigger project showing the entire Pacific Northwest and would allow the user to place different types of power plants around the area and would show how much of the Pacific Northwest you could power with those different combinations of power plants.
Frank, Suggestion/Thoughts of a madman: Put your Y connection on the router itself. Run a single 6" flexible hose from the ceiling duct down to your router instead of two hoses. Make sure to have some sort of swivel mechanism on the ceiling hose connection as well, or have a secondary hold point as to not stress the hose joint itself.
chopperdan88 My thoughts exactly! Much less restriction with one hose over that distance from the ceiling to the router and less weight for the gantry to move around.
That 3D Mt. Hood piece is amazing. I was totally unprepared for the plywood to act like a sort of a topographical map. I am stunned at how beautiful that is. Bravo!
Go next level... Enclose the whole router like a fish bowl! I've seen a handful of shops that have a "router room" with a sliding glass door into it. That way you can see everything and keep the dust down. It's definitely a trick to keep those buggers clean.
You can make a clear brush from 1 mm transparant PVC for example. If you wrap it around the dust shoe and make a bunch of slits along the edge, it will behave just like the brushes.
Funny. I have a clear brush made of transparent plastic material and was just thinking about replacing it with a bristle version. You can't really see through the plastic anyway clear enough to be useful, and I think I'm getting more dust escaping than I've seen with the bristles. That said, I'm new to all this and my plastic-skirt version is the only one I've played with.
Hi Frank, nice Video - as always :-). Two recommendations: 1. If you want to glue something to plastic try RTV silicon. I use this even on POM and it works. It's not super strong but keeps the magnets or the brush in place. 2. To see the router bit during the operation you can make a cutout in the brush. This also helps controlling the air flow. If the brush is all around, the air do not know which way to go and sucking is from everywhere. If you have a small cutout in the area of the router bit the air has a specific way to flow and helps sucking (especially with your suction power). Best Regards from Germany Alex
What do you think about making the holder from clear acrylic as a lot of people are suggesting in the comments? Possibly make the top part bigger in the front and be able to see the bit from above. It would mean less concentration of the suction power but the brushes stop the kinetic energy of the sawdust and the dust stays on the table. Or get collected the next time the router passes by. Thanks for the great video!
I've seen people using clear vinyl flaps instead of a brush and it seems to work pretty well. It gives you enough of a view that you can tell what's going on, but it's not perfect.
Your projects are always inspirational. My $0.02 on this one: Also experiment with a single 4" hose shoe. Does the increased airflow from two hoses balance out the additional loss of suction from the increased size of your brush-enclosed area? My guess is no. The brush-enclosed area should be small for best results. You could actually use both hoses, but reduce down to a smaller brush area with a manifold--that would be sweet. The skirt needs to go all the way around and control airflow as much as possible to be effective. But, as suggested many times, an upper shoe cut from acrylic or plexiglass will increase visibility. Also, a making either the whole skirt or just a window region in your brush from a sheet of flexible clear nylon cut into strips will really help with the visibility. Cheers!
So, I have a dust boot for my X-Carve that is attached to the stationary part of the router carriage and adjustable up and down. This enables the brush to be at a fixed height over the workpiece and eliminates the tendency for the brush to affect the motion of the carriage. It does an admirable job of dust collection although I am not thrilled with the quality of the attachment/adjustment design. Just another thing to consider...
My suggestion is to see if there's enough room in the top of the dust collection fixture to have a Pi Cam (from a Raspberry Pi) and some LEDs stick through. Then you could monitor what the bit is doing in a web browser. You'd also have some cool footage.
What about a T shaped brush where the router is at the intersection, the hoses are at the ends of the arms, and a gopro at the bottom, aimed at the bit?
Frank, always enjoy your videos. I have a smaller Shapeoko style CNC and had a dust boot which moved with the head and it always seemed to have problems. I got the Suckit Dust boot and you set the height for the dust boot and the cnc head can move independently. Works so much better, maybe you can design one of your own similar in style and it may function better as the hose stress on the head is taken away. Great video though!
Plywood + CNC for topographical maps is genius, kinda wished you put some finish on it so the layers would come out but it wasn't really the focal point of the video so that makes sense. Good luck with the dust collection amendments n thanks for sharing.
Great progress Frank. How about a small camera mounted inside the brush area so you can keep an eye on the bit. Totally overkill but you have to admit it would be cool (as long as it didn't get covered in dust, lol).
Nice ,what about smaller pick up hoses spread around the bit giving it greater vacuum force coupled with a little go pro camera aimed at the bit ,i seen someplace where they where blowing it from one side and vacuuming from other ,keeping the path clear ,,
Hey, Mr Howarth. If I may suggest, the brush and its holder could be a separate apparatus attached to the back plate. It would ensure it kept a fixed distance from the bed while giving complete clearance for the spindle to move up and down. I'd love to share a few sketches with you to clarify my suggestion. Cheers!
Love watching your videos and your shop is just fantastic. Been watch for a few years and the evolution through benches and CNC's is like the movie - 2001 Space Odyssey
Great video Frank, thanks. The brush needs to be as long as the bit - maybe you could have separate brushes of different lengths? Re seeing the work - it's going to be difficult, making it out of clear plastic or adding a window is going to get dirty. The section of the dust collection head near the bit could be much narrower though, almost like a figure of 8 so the dust collection is at the side with a narrow section in the middle. You still won't be able to see the bit, but it will be more obvious where it is?
I spend more time working and upgrading my CNC machine than I do using it to make stuff. And frankly, it's too much fun for me to have it any other way!
If the modified bristles don't work out, you could do what I did. Mine is made of clear plastic on the top. You might not be able to get it thick enough for the same way you did this, but I'm sure there's some way to incorporate or include clear windows from the top. Visibility isn't perfect but it helps a lot.
seeing Frank struggle to collect dust with his impressive dust collection system makes my situation, with just a shop vac, seem all the more hopeless. Haha. Anyhow, this video was enjoyable to watch as always. CNC-themed videos have a tendency to be boring, but somehow Frank seems able to avoid that and keep the videos interesting.
Another great video. Your CNC's lack of dust collection has been bothering me... yeah, I care about you :) Anyway twin 4" tubes are probably over kill one 4" is probably more than enough. I think the important detail is getting the brush right. I would try cutting a piece of PET from a large clear pop bottle, this plastic can be vacu-formed or just used as is. Just tape some in place and see how it works. Hell yeah! Once again I have bestowed another completely useless opinion upon the internet public and I can call it a day.
Dust collecting, one of my most frustrating issues in the shop. Last year, I thought that overarm table saw dust collector is on sale. That has to work great, can't be any worse then the current spray of chips from the 14" blade. Well, wrong. It does not work because you can't get enough suction flow at the end of a pipe. And flexible hose, just adds more restriction. In my case, I used a dedicated dust collector, with a short 8 foot piece of semi rigid 4" vacuum hose, to the reduced 3" pipe of the overarm collector. The optimal suction would be the vacuum impeller mounted right to the dust hood, moving the maximum amount of air. The other issue with the table saw collector, is the darn thing is in the way anytime the rip fence is within the dust hood size distance from the fence. Your overhead hose, I suggest to leave the 6" pipe size, as far down from your ceiling as possible to minimize the restriction from your 2 corrugated hoses, making the Y split as close to the Z axis spindle as possible. I wish someone would make a compact light weight motor/impeller for just these sort of collector issues where super high volume is needed. Thanks for the videos.
Nice presentation as usual. I have been looking forward to see how you were going to solve this problem ever since the CNC was installed. Although this brush and suction approach seems like the most common and intuitive I wonder if there are not some different ways to do this. Some kind of a static attraction scheme perhaps.
Hi Frank, I watched this video last week and an idea came to me that may improve on the brush and not visually obscure the cutting tool like a brush. If the brush were replaced with an air curtain it may keep the dust in and allow a clear view. I've worked with air curtains in large industrial plants and they are effective in keeping dust out of sensitive equipment, we used to take a clean compressed air supply and direct it where needed and it worked wonders. I could see a manifold like a copper pipe that has been shaped like the outline of the brush with air ports drilled along the bottom allowing air to hit the table and forming the curtain. Might work?
Nice. Have a suggestion. If you are worried about the visibility of the router bit, why not install a little camera on the plastic piece, pointed at the bit? Might work. Great channel. Thanks.
Based on some measurements I've done using a laser particle counter, I would guess that you were catching most of the fine dust (the dust that causes health problems) even without the brush. The larger bits have much more momentum so they require more air velocity to capture. The brush accomplishes that as well as bouncing them back into the air stream. With the large amount of airflow you have, you might be able to get by with a small opening for viewing. I attached my boot to the stationary frame so it doesn't move up and down with the spindle. That also allows a large opening in the center where the spindle moves through to see everything that's going on. Essentially, most of the air is drawn down through that center hole so you can see the bit but still catch everything. Unless you do a lot of 3D cutting that's taller than your brush, a boot that is held stationary in the vertical axis works better for most projects. I was going to design mine to mount either way but found that I don't need it.
use the clear plastic brush parts. the brush is really just to corral the dust and create a negative pressure in the cavity. If you used clear plastic flexible "fingers" you could see the work piece and get optimal suction
Just had a thought; while not all plastics are suitable for thermoforming, most plastics are in some way responsive in a useful way to judicious application of heat. If you have a scrap piece that's exhibiting this stress-bow I think you should experiment with heating it to relieve the stress. In an ideal world you'd heat it up to around 200~250F on a flat surface for 30~ minutes and all that stress would relax out without significantly impacting the parts dimensionally. The trick is going to be finding a low enough temperature to relax it without really getting it into the "workable" range where things might mush around. Looks like for delrin that's in the neighborhood of 180F; for Corian it's 300~350F PS, take the magnets out before tempering; heat can make them demagnetize.
Quick Tip: I was triggering my proximity sensor on the Z axis with my dust collection hose. The wire inside the hose was enough to trigger the sensor because it was dangling around the top of the Z axis. A small guard fixed it, but was a pain to figure out why it was stopping all the time..
If it helps for reference, there is a boot for Shapeoko CNC machines called the Suckit Dust Boot. It doesn't look like it will fit your machine, but you might be able to make something similar.
Have you tried double stick paper based tape? we use Intertape brand 591 flatback paper tape. Good stuff! Use it to hold parts down to the table, and then pry them up with a spatula or scraper.
I guess if you have longer brushes (so they seal better to the workpiece) and leave a gap on each side of the bit, air should go in by the bit, pick up the dust and head out to the side to the hoses. That way you could see the bit in action. Also, as someone else mentioned, you could make the top out of clear acrylic or polycarbonate. Another idea is that you could drill holes and glue in a couple of white LEDs to illuminate the workpiece.
I wonder if you could make something out of small vinyl flaps. I'm thinking of the curtains you sometimes see used as barriers to a walk-in cooler. Neat video, as always, your time lapse stuff is really fun.
Given enough time, i'm confident I can model any part in Fusion 360...then I'm completely lost on the CAM. A local machine tool distributor offers a 6 hour class (for $500) that I can't afford. Good build!
Your videos (and others, but mostly yours) inspired me to purchase a CNC router parts PRO4848 and I just got it up and running in the last few weeks. I have collected all the parts needed to build my own dust shroud sitting there ready to go. So thank you for the most perfectly timed video ever haha! I also have a 6" port running to the machine and I didn't even think of going to a double 4" hose, great idea! (I was going to reduce it down to a single 4"). Is the CAM file you used available to share by chance? I'm on the edge of my seat for the next update to see how your changes will work. Are you feeling like it's really important to see what the bit is doing at all times? What about a small lipstick camera mounted to film inside the brushes, maybe with a strip of LEDs on the inside as well? Might be a bit over complicated but could be fun. The brushes seem to make such a big difference I'm guessing a gap in the brushes will negatively effect the suction. I was also thinking a thick clear plastic instead of the brushes might be a good alternative but I couldn't really find what I was looking for and with my strong DC was worried they would just get sucked towards the port.
As you go along with CNC I think you will find it is faster and safer to machine out the entire internal volume of the 4" circles rather than leaving little bits to trim off and pulling out the big chunks.
Frank have you thought of abandoning the window in the brush for something more high tech? How about building some cameras into the dust collection piece, and having a live stream from multiple angles?
It's better to make a "spoil board" to screw your projects to, so your not messing up the wood clamp top... I know you can resurface it.. but you only get so many passes. Also watching your machine cut the dust shoe, your cam is not set set for optimal cut paths for sure. For test pieces... I buy the sheet foam at big box stores... (I prefer the purple 3/4" stuff)peel the plastic off and cut/shape away... cuts easy and fast, less wear on your bits... and if you mess up with the g-code it doesn't break anything, and less money than wood. I built my 10' cnc table from scratch, and I run cambam... for my cam software. 4kw liquid cooled spindle. Good tool. -Mick
Hey Frank, my name is Moritz and I am from Austria. I have a lot of experience with Fusion360 both privately and from cnc classes at school. If you want to I could help you with some of your CAD and CAM and show you some tricks I picked up. Nice video, keep it up!
Regarding being able to see the bit, it's possible to mount a cheap webcam in the dust hood. If the dust collection does its job, it won't get dusty, they last a decent amount of time even with the vibration, and even when it breaks it's only $20 to replace it.
Hey Frank, thx for your videos ! what about a transparent acrylic mounting plate ? You will be able to see your bit though it. Instead of the brush some dust shoes have silicon banding which are mostly transparent. On my CNC I have a cyclonic dust coklection. the intake comes at an angle and there's a skirt with a spiral shape that starts the cyclon swirl. The skirt only goes by the height of the collet and that'enough. The rotqtion of the bit accentuate the cyclon flow. I use a shop vac because depression is higher and air speed too. I don't know if this would work with a large dust collector. Wish this can help you.
I'm not sure if this is true, but it seems like the motivation for the brushes is just to stop the chips (literally, reduce their speed) before they gets too far away, and settle down. A one sided shoe doesn't seem like it would work as well for the chips that went out that side. what about a hole in the top, with a camera looking through? I'm pretty sure I would smash a camera that was underneath the shoe.
Fun project... An idea I had a while ago while watching the trade-offs with dust collection on CNC machines. Could you build a dust hood that had it's own Z-Axis lead screw controlled by the g-code so it would move up and down with the "terrain" as the cut progressed to keep a near-contact air stream?
You could make the (short) sides of the brush (where the hoses attach) from solid transparent material. You can see through and the suction is more centered to the bit.
There's another possible solution Frank. You can get an endoscopic camera off of Amazon for a fairly reasonable price and possible you could snake that into the brush housing to view your bit while it's in operation. Not sure though if you would need to add a light inside as well. Just a thought. :-)
I saw a video the other day that had duct tape folded together and cut into strips around a dust collection to act as brush bristles. It made me think of this video.
a 2 or 3 inch removable/hinged brush in the center is the way to go. even when open, 95-98% of the dust will be sucked and you would still see the cutter working.
What about putting a tiny camera and some bright LEDs under the dust shoe? GoPro session and similar are probably too big unless you mount them through the shoe somehow. But you can get really tiny NTSC and PAL cameras for home security systems. The FPV drone world makes heavy use.of these. You can also get 5 or 7" lcd displays meant for add-on automotive backup cameras for cheap (again FPV pilots use these). Or get a USB capture device for your computer.
Its a shame a brush had to eventually be used as visibility of the bit is surely advantageous. I am going to explore some brushless options before I give in! It also takes up valuable work area at the parameters.
Removing some of the brushes will reduce the suction, and I wonder if it won't compromise the effectiveness of the whole system... I guess that's what you're wondering too! :)
My advice : leave a gap in the brush in the middle of the length (where the bit is). This comes with two advantage and one disadvantage : + You can see the bit doing the work from most angles (depending on how wide the gap is) + This drastically decrease the chance of brush-bit unwanted interaction. - You loose a bit of suction power
The fact that there is stress in the plastic is not odd. There actually are stresses in plastics. Especially in extruded parts and parts that are stretched (vacuum forming for example).
Lots of comments about clear vinyl strips. Before you spend a lot of time making a final product, be sure to test the vinyl / plastic against the static buildup that occurs from the bit spinning, etc. A clear shield / brush wouldn't be a lot of use if all of the fine particles are stuck to it due to the static charge on the plastic.
That´s no problem. I´m using this kind of table cover: www.amazon.com/Kangkang-transparent-customized-tablecloths-tablecloth/dp/B01IEXZOAK/ref=sr_1_30?ie=UTF8&qid=1497472473&sr=8-30&keywords=tablecloth+crystal+clear Different lengths (because of different bits), fixed with velcro fastener to the dustshoe.
I have that same issue with the warping dust collector. I was thinking about improving the design too but it still collects all the dust, so oh well... nice video though.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 84 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องศึก vs เมืองไทย"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3kuzsAIDf1c/mqdefault.jpg)
Frank
one thing you might try to replace the brush material is some vinyl plastic strips like you see in cold storage facilities to let people and forklifts through. We did this with our cnc routers at work. Some plastic around 0.02-.03 thick works fine. wrap a piece around the dust collector and cut slots every 1/2" or so. I you only have some thinner material, use two layers and alternate the slits in the plastic. One thing is to not make the strips longer than the distance from the edge to the cutter or they may get sucked in and cut off :-) Especially when using a planing cutter to flatten the spoil board.
James
Thanks James, that helps
I've also seen someone use a piece of clear plastic from a bottle, but I'm not exactly sure of the results. Maybe just a 2-3" piece in front of the bit so you could watch it work.
I can see that working. I've made eye protectors from a mayonnaise jar, and drawer slides from clorox bottles (which is thin HDPE). So many reusable plastics out there.
I can confirm that this works- it's what we did at a local makerspace. The one problem we were having was it kept sucking in and collapsing, which wasn't a big enough problem for us to put effort into fixing. I's sure Frank can figure something out about that if he runs into that problem.
I can't help but thinking as i watch this that at some point the brush material may get stuck or pushed back enough in the piece that is being cut, and it becomes entangled with the bit. I suppose a single piece of a plastic brush will just get cut off, but wouldn't using a bigger piece like vinyl strips risk this kind of entanglement and damage to the cnc?
The only CNC videos I ever watch are yours. I have no interest in CNCs, at all, but your videos are just so well made that I find them fascinating.
Hi Frank, the CNC machine I sometimes use has a big enclosure which is somewhat transparent and then an opaque shoe you can lower if needed. Both make it real hard to see what's happening so I decided to add a small camera inside the shoe. You can get a decent 1080p camera and a Raspberry Pi for very reasonable price and as a bonus you get CNC cam shots for the channel.
You can take the bend out of your plastic parts by heating them with a hot air gun and bending by hand. Just go slow, and work out the correct temperature on scraps beforehand.
Great videos, it really makes my day when a new one shows up :)
I like the camera idea. And I will have to try the heat idea on the plastic. Thanks.
I've got a similar terrain map of Mt. Hood hanging on the wall of my shop. We made it on our CNC when I worked at OMSI. It was a proof-of-concept for a bigger project showing the entire Pacific Northwest and would allow the user to place different types of power plants around the area and would show how much of the Pacific Northwest you could power with those different combinations of power plants.
Frank,
Suggestion/Thoughts of a madman:
Put your Y connection on the router itself. Run a single 6" flexible hose from the ceiling duct down to your router instead of two hoses.
Make sure to have some sort of swivel mechanism on the ceiling hose connection as well, or have a secondary hold point as to not stress the hose joint itself.
chopperdan88
My thoughts exactly! Much less restriction with one hose over that distance from the ceiling to the router and less weight for the gantry to move around.
I thought the same thing. I was surprised when he put the Y connector so far away.
That 3D Mt. Hood piece is amazing. I was totally unprepared for the plywood to act like a sort of a topographical map. I am stunned at how beautiful that is. Bravo!
Same situation. I have my CNC for 3 years now but no dust collection yet : D For filming I blow away the dust by hand from time to time.
Next update for you >> th-cam.com/video/gTsBJtoVp40/w-d-xo.html ;) Regards from Poland :)
Go next level... Enclose the whole router like a fish bowl! I've seen a handful of shops that have a "router room" with a sliding glass door into it. That way you can see everything and keep the dust down. It's definitely a trick to keep those buggers clean.
I like how the layers of the laminated ply make it look like a topographic map, very cool idea.
I missed ya Frank! Great to see you back in the shop. Order to the universe has been restored.
You can make a clear brush from 1 mm transparant PVC for example. If you wrap it around the dust shoe and make a bunch of slits along the edge, it will behave just like the brushes.
I have seen this, it may be a good option.
where would you get clear PVC?
Russ from Coral Springs, FL, USA
Funny. I have a clear brush made of transparent plastic material and was just thinking about replacing it with a bristle version. You can't really see through the plastic anyway clear enough to be useful, and I think I'm getting more dust escaping than I've seen with the bristles. That said, I'm new to all this and my plastic-skirt version is the only one I've played with.
Hi Frank,
nice Video - as always :-).
Two recommendations:
1. If you want to glue something to plastic try RTV silicon. I use this even on POM and it works. It's not super strong but keeps the magnets or the brush in place.
2. To see the router bit during the operation you can make a cutout in the brush. This also helps controlling the air flow. If the brush is all around, the air do not know which way to go and sucking is from everywhere. If you have a small cutout in the area of the router bit the air has a specific way to flow and helps sucking (especially with your suction power).
Best Regards from Germany
Alex
Never get tired of watching you.
Considering we just bought a Pro CNCRouterParts 4' by 8', I happen to love you very much right now, Frank.
Your videos always help soothe my hangover.
Make the brush holder out of clear acrylic to give yourself more visibility. Cheers!
Yep. The Shopbot CNC router that I use has a nice clear acrylic dust hood. Works great, and you can easily peek in to see the bit.
Someone on instrutables did this along with a clear vinyl skirt/brush and it looks really nice.
www.instructables.com/id/Magnetic-ShopBot-Dust-Skirt/
I was thinking the same thing.. Lexan? or Pexli? could be easy to heat and bend and drill holes etc.
Using acrylic should also avoid the warping problem. Especially if you use cast rather than extruded.
medicineman007 I
You are very talent Frank. Your video is well done and the stop motions are amazing. The best.
What do you think about making the holder from clear acrylic as a lot of people are suggesting in the comments? Possibly make the top part bigger in the front and be able to see the bit from above. It would mean less concentration of the suction power but the brushes stop the kinetic energy of the sawdust and the dust stays on the table. Or get collected the next time the router passes by. Thanks for the great video!
Wintergatan I love that you watch Frank's videos. You guys are both creative geniuses!
Interesting, I had not thought of making the plate bigger to make a larger window.
I've seen people using clear vinyl flaps instead of a brush and it seems to work pretty well. It gives you enough of a view that you can tell what's going on, but it's not perfect.
that plywood turned out just great for terrain, exactly looks like a topographic map.
Thanks for sharing your thought process for the design.
Your projects are always inspirational. My $0.02 on this one: Also experiment with a single 4" hose shoe. Does the increased airflow from two hoses balance out the additional loss of suction from the increased size of your brush-enclosed area? My guess is no. The brush-enclosed area should be small for best results. You could actually use both hoses, but reduce down to a smaller brush area with a manifold--that would be sweet. The skirt needs to go all the way around and control airflow as much as possible to be effective. But, as suggested many times, an upper shoe cut from acrylic or plexiglass will increase visibility. Also, a making either the whole skirt or just a window region in your brush from a sheet of flexible clear nylon cut into strips will really help with the visibility. Cheers!
So, I have a dust boot for my X-Carve that is attached to the stationary part of the router carriage and adjustable up and down. This enables the brush to be at a fixed height over the workpiece and eliminates the tendency for the brush to affect the motion of the carriage. It does an admirable job of dust collection although I am not thrilled with the quality of the attachment/adjustment design. Just another thing to consider...
My suggestion is to see if there's enough room in the top of the dust collection fixture to have a Pi Cam (from a Raspberry Pi) and some LEDs stick through. Then you could monitor what the bit is doing in a web browser. You'd also have some cool footage.
Here is a brush I had made for filming. It has the brush left off on the filming side.
instagram.com/p/BUsfXDchMZi/
Yes I saw that design about a week ago. it was what was getting me thinking about altering the bristles
What about a T shaped brush where the router is at the intersection, the hoses are at the ends of the arms, and a gopro at the bottom, aimed at the bit?
Frank, always enjoy your videos. I have a smaller Shapeoko style CNC and had a dust boot which moved with the head and it always seemed to have problems. I got the Suckit Dust boot and you set the height for the dust boot and the cnc head can move independently. Works so much better, maybe you can design one of your own similar in style and it may function better as the hose stress on the head is taken away. Great video though!
Glad you got a dust shoe setup.
Plywood + CNC for topographical maps is genius, kinda wished you put some finish on it so the layers would come out but it wasn't really the focal point of the video so that makes sense. Good luck with the dust collection amendments n thanks for sharing.
Love your push stick. Great video.
hi frank. just an fyi, if you use a ca glue product you can in fact glue the magnets in. it works perfectly as well with magnet insets in mdf
Terrain carving is a really cool idea
Great progress Frank. How about a small camera mounted inside the brush area so you can keep an eye on the bit. Totally overkill but you have to admit it would be cool (as long as it didn't get covered in dust, lol).
I'm lovin' that push stick and now I want a CNC.
Why isn't anyone acknowledging that Frank is a wizard?! He cleaned all of that plastic off without even touching it!
Another Great Video, Frank. Love the Table Saw Push stick (Circa 7:30) You do great work, love the videos, love the special effects that you do, too!
Nice ,what about smaller pick up hoses spread around the bit giving it greater vacuum force coupled with a little go pro camera aimed at the bit ,i seen someplace where they where blowing it from one side and vacuuming from other ,keeping the path clear ,,
Hey, Mr Howarth. If I may suggest, the brush and its holder could be a separate apparatus attached to the back plate. It would ensure it kept a fixed distance from the bed while giving complete clearance for the spindle to move up and down. I'd love to share a few sketches with you to clarify my suggestion. Cheers!
Love your videos Frank! Thoroughly enjoy your problem solving abilities!
Live the stop motion parts in it, really nice!
I don't usually watch CNC videos, buy your videos are the exception. Thanks .
Love watching your videos and your shop is just fantastic. Been watch for a few years and the evolution through benches and CNC's is like the movie - 2001 Space Odyssey
Great video Frank, thanks. The brush needs to be as long as the bit - maybe you could have separate brushes of different lengths? Re seeing the work - it's going to be difficult, making it out of clear plastic or adding a window is going to get dirty. The section of the dust collection head near the bit could be much narrower though, almost like a figure of 8 so the dust collection is at the side with a narrow section in the middle. You still won't be able to see the bit, but it will be more obvious where it is?
I spend more time working and upgrading my CNC machine than I do using it to make stuff. And frankly, it's too much fun for me to have it any other way!
If the modified bristles don't work out, you could do what I did. Mine is made of clear plastic on the top. You might not be able to get it thick enough for the same way you did this, but I'm sure there's some way to incorporate or include clear windows from the top. Visibility isn't perfect but it helps a lot.
seeing Frank struggle to collect dust with his impressive dust collection system makes my situation, with just a shop vac, seem all the more hopeless. Haha. Anyhow, this video was enjoyable to watch as always. CNC-themed videos have a tendency to be boring, but somehow Frank seems able to avoid that and keep the videos interesting.
Another great video. Your CNC's lack of dust collection has been bothering me... yeah, I care about you :) Anyway twin 4" tubes are probably over kill one 4" is probably more than enough. I think the important detail is getting the brush right. I would try cutting a piece of PET from a large clear pop bottle, this plastic can be vacu-formed or just used as is. Just tape some in place and see how it works. Hell yeah! Once again I have bestowed another completely useless opinion upon the internet public and I can call it a day.
Dust collecting, one of my most frustrating issues in the shop. Last year, I thought that overarm table saw dust collector is on sale. That has to work great, can't be any worse then the current spray of chips from the 14" blade. Well, wrong. It does not work because you can't get enough suction flow at the end of a pipe. And flexible hose, just adds more restriction. In my case, I used a dedicated dust collector, with a short 8 foot piece of semi rigid 4" vacuum hose, to the reduced 3" pipe of the overarm collector. The optimal suction would be the vacuum impeller mounted right to the dust hood, moving the maximum amount of air. The other issue with the table saw collector, is the darn thing is in the way anytime the rip fence is within the dust hood size distance from the fence.
Your overhead hose, I suggest to leave the 6" pipe size, as far down from your ceiling as possible to minimize the restriction from your 2 corrugated hoses, making the Y split as close to the Z axis spindle as possible.
I wish someone would make a compact light weight motor/impeller for just these sort of collector issues where super high volume is needed.
Thanks for the videos.
Use that heavy duty window film to make the brush. This is what I have on my CNC and it works great, you can see right through it.
Nice presentation as usual. I have been looking forward to see how you were going to solve this problem ever since the CNC was installed. Although this brush and suction approach seems like the most common and intuitive I wonder if there are not some different ways to do this. Some kind of a static attraction scheme perhaps.
Hi Frank, I watched this video last week and an idea came to me that may improve on the brush and not visually obscure the cutting tool like a brush. If the brush were replaced with an air curtain it may keep the dust in and allow a clear view. I've worked with air curtains in large industrial plants and they are effective in keeping dust out of sensitive equipment, we used to take a clean compressed air supply and direct it where needed and it worked wonders. I could see a manifold like a copper pipe that has been shaped like the outline of the brush with air ports drilled along the bottom allowing air to hit the table and forming the curtain. Might work?
+Brian Boni that's a new one. i like it. Thanks
Nice. Have a suggestion. If you are worried about the visibility of the router bit, why not install a little camera on the plastic piece, pointed at the bit?
Might work.
Great channel. Thanks.
Based on some measurements I've done using a laser particle counter, I would guess that you were catching most of the fine dust (the dust that causes health problems) even without the brush. The larger bits have much more momentum so they require more air velocity to capture. The brush accomplishes that as well as bouncing them back into the air stream.
With the large amount of airflow you have, you might be able to get by with a small opening for viewing.
I attached my boot to the stationary frame so it doesn't move up and down with the spindle. That also allows a large opening in the center where the spindle moves through to see everything that's going on. Essentially, most of the air is drawn down through that center hole so you can see the bit but still catch everything.
Unless you do a lot of 3D cutting that's taller than your brush, a boot that is held stationary in the vertical axis works better for most projects. I was going to design mine to mount either way but found that I don't need it.
It did seem like it was getting the fine dust, which is the real killer.
use the clear plastic brush parts. the brush is really just to corral the dust and create a negative pressure in the cavity. If you used clear plastic flexible "fingers" you could see the work piece and get optimal suction
Just had a thought; while not all plastics are suitable for thermoforming, most plastics are in some way responsive in a useful way to judicious application of heat. If you have a scrap piece that's exhibiting this stress-bow I think you should experiment with heating it to relieve the stress. In an ideal world you'd heat it up to around 200~250F on a flat surface for 30~ minutes and all that stress would relax out without significantly impacting the parts dimensionally. The trick is going to be finding a low enough temperature to relax it without really getting it into the "workable" range where things might mush around.
Looks like for delrin that's in the neighborhood of 180F; for Corian it's 300~350F
PS, take the magnets out before tempering; heat can make them demagnetize.
That is an awesome CNC machine
Finally! I was waiting for this Projekt since you got that old cnc-table. Nice work!
I recommend shields for your linear rails. A piece of aluminium in the sled will really mess up your day.
I was thinking about that as i was waiting for the long terrain cut. some shields attached to the vertical gantry posts
True
Quick Tip: I was triggering my proximity sensor on the Z axis with my dust collection hose. The wire inside the hose was enough to trigger the sensor because it was dangling around the top of the Z axis. A small guard fixed it, but was a pain to figure out why it was stopping all the time..
Nice vid frank, I would try it with a gap in the brush first so you can see the bit. maybe a led light in there also.
If it helps for reference, there is a boot for Shapeoko CNC machines called the Suckit Dust Boot.
It doesn't look like it will fit your machine, but you might be able to make something similar.
HDPE is a thermoplastic. Ergo you can heat it up, bend/remold it, and let it cool. That could fix your warping issue.
Have you tried double stick paper based tape? we use Intertape brand 591 flatback paper tape. Good stuff! Use it to hold parts down to the table, and then pry them up with a spatula or scraper.
Excellent vid, as always. Maybe remake the brush out of a clear shower curtain liner?
Yes! New video.
Todays is a good sunday.
I guess if you have longer brushes (so they seal better to the workpiece) and leave a gap on each side of the bit, air should go in by the bit, pick up the dust and head out to the side to the hoses. That way you could see the bit in action. Also, as someone else mentioned, you could make the top out of clear acrylic or polycarbonate. Another idea is that you could drill holes and glue in a couple of white LEDs to illuminate the workpiece.
I wonder if you could make something out of small vinyl flaps. I'm thinking of the curtains you sometimes see used as barriers to a walk-in cooler. Neat video, as always, your time lapse stuff is really fun.
Given enough time, i'm confident I can model any part in Fusion 360...then I'm completely lost on the CAM. A local machine tool distributor offers a 6 hour class (for $500) that I can't afford. Good build!
Greetings.
Thanks for making.
There are polyolefine primers on the market, like Loctite 770.
godspeed
Your videos (and others, but mostly yours) inspired me to purchase a CNC router parts PRO4848 and I just got it up and running in the last few weeks. I have collected all the parts needed to build my own dust shroud sitting there ready to go. So thank you for the most perfectly timed video ever haha! I also have a 6" port running to the machine and I didn't even think of going to a double 4" hose, great idea! (I was going to reduce it down to a single 4"). Is the CAM file you used available to share by chance? I'm on the edge of my seat for the next update to see how your changes will work. Are you feeling like it's really important to see what the bit is doing at all times? What about a small lipstick camera mounted to film inside the brushes, maybe with a strip of LEDs on the inside as well? Might be a bit over complicated but could be fun. The brushes seem to make such a big difference I'm guessing a gap in the brushes will negatively effect the suction. I was also thinking a thick clear plastic instead of the brushes might be a good alternative but I couldn't really find what I was looking for and with my strong DC was worried they would just get sucked towards the port.
As you go along with CNC I think you will find it is faster and safer to machine out the entire internal volume of the 4" circles rather than leaving little bits to trim off and pulling out the big chunks.
Making part for your CNC with your CNC. Neat.
Frank have you thought of abandoning the window in the brush for something more high tech? How about building some cameras into the dust collection piece, and having a live stream from multiple angles?
Frank, we use clear PVC instead of the brush cleaner type. It allows you to see the cut.
It's better to make a "spoil board" to screw your projects to, so your not messing up the wood clamp top... I know you can resurface it.. but you only get so many passes. Also watching your machine cut the dust shoe, your cam is not set set for optimal cut paths for sure.
For test pieces... I buy the sheet foam at big box stores... (I prefer the purple 3/4" stuff)peel the plastic off and cut/shape away... cuts easy and fast, less wear on your bits... and if you mess up with the g-code it doesn't break anything, and less money than wood.
I built my 10' cnc table from scratch, and I run cambam... for my cam software. 4kw liquid cooled spindle. Good tool.
-Mick
Hey Frank,
my name is Moritz and I am from Austria. I have a lot of experience with Fusion360 both privately and from cnc classes at school. If you want to I could help you with some of your CAD and CAM and show you some tricks I picked up.
Nice video, keep it up!
Frank,
I to use Lexan for the ability to see the bit and work. So far the Lexan has given me no problem.
Jim
Regarding being able to see the bit, it's possible to mount a cheap webcam in the dust hood. If the dust collection does its job, it won't get dusty, they last a decent amount of time even with the vibration, and even when it breaks it's only $20 to replace it.
Hey Frank, thx for your videos ! what about a transparent acrylic mounting plate ? You will be able to see your bit though it. Instead of the brush some dust shoes have silicon banding which are mostly transparent. On my CNC I have a cyclonic dust coklection. the intake comes at an angle and there's a skirt with a spiral shape that starts the cyclon swirl. The skirt only goes by the height of the collet and that'enough. The rotqtion of the bit accentuate the cyclon flow. I use a shop vac because depression is higher and air speed too. I don't know if this would work with a large dust collector. Wish this can help you.
I'm not sure if this is true, but it seems like the motivation for the brushes is just to stop the chips (literally, reduce their speed) before they gets too far away, and settle down. A one sided shoe doesn't seem like it would work as well for the chips that went out that side. what about a hole in the top, with a camera looking through? I'm pretty sure I would smash a camera that was underneath the shoe.
Fun project... An idea I had a while ago while watching the trade-offs with dust collection on CNC machines. Could you build a dust hood that had it's own Z-Axis lead screw controlled by the g-code so it would move up and down with the "terrain" as the cut progressed to keep a near-contact air stream?
You could make the (short) sides of the brush (where the hoses attach) from solid transparent material.
You can see through and the suction is more centered to the bit.
There's another possible solution Frank. You can get an endoscopic camera off of Amazon for a fairly reasonable price and possible you could snake that into the brush housing to view your bit while it's in operation. Not sure though if you would need to add a light inside as well. Just a thought. :-)
so many great camera ideas
Maybe make the top portion of the dust shoe of plexiglass. So you can see through it.
Fredrik Rambris it will quickly become coated in sawdust...
I saw a video the other day that had duct tape folded together and cut into strips around a dust collection to act as brush bristles. It made me think of this video.
Nice job - using the CNC to build the CNC. If it gains self-awareness, we're in trouble. 😀
I'll keep an eye on it lol
Fun as always. Thanks Frank.
a 2 or 3 inch removable/hinged brush in the center is the way to go. even when open, 95-98% of the dust will be sucked and you would still see the cutter working.
What about putting a tiny camera and some bright LEDs under the dust shoe? GoPro session and similar are probably too big unless you mount them through the shoe somehow. But you can get really tiny NTSC and PAL cameras for home security systems. The FPV drone world makes heavy use.of these. You can also get 5 or 7" lcd displays meant for add-on automotive backup cameras for cheap (again FPV pilots use these). Or get a USB capture device for your computer.
Its a shame a brush had to eventually be used as visibility of the bit is surely advantageous. I am going to explore some brushless options before I give in! It also takes up valuable work area at the parameters.
Removing some of the brushes will reduce the suction, and I wonder if it won't compromise the effectiveness of the whole system... I guess that's what you're wondering too! :)
get gopro + small led inside the brush thingy, so u can monitor and get full cleaning +footage?
My advice : leave a gap in the brush in the middle of the length (where the bit is). This comes with two advantage and one disadvantage :
+ You can see the bit doing the work from most angles (depending on how wide the gap is)
+ This drastically decrease the chance of brush-bit unwanted interaction.
- You loose a bit of suction power
This is going to be my first experiment.
The fact that there is stress in the plastic is not odd. There actually are stresses in plastics. Especially in extruded parts and parts that are stretched (vacuum forming for example).
I enjoy your video's. Thanks
Lots of comments about clear vinyl strips. Before you spend a lot of time making a final product, be sure to test the vinyl / plastic against the static buildup that occurs from the bit spinning, etc. A clear shield / brush wouldn't be a lot of use if all of the fine particles are stuck to it due to the static charge on the plastic.
that is what i wonder about, it being scratched and covered in dust.
That´s no problem. I´m using this kind of table cover:
www.amazon.com/Kangkang-transparent-customized-tablecloths-tablecloth/dp/B01IEXZOAK/ref=sr_1_30?ie=UTF8&qid=1497472473&sr=8-30&keywords=tablecloth+crystal+clear
Different lengths (because of different bits), fixed with velcro fastener to the dustshoe.
What do you do with all the dust you collect? I'm curious if there ever is a use for it? Thank you for sharing your videos. They are so fun to watch!
that hose holder looks like a giant frame for a pair of glasses.
Finally it's here! Oh boy have I been waiting for this.
I have that same issue with the warping dust collector. I was thinking about improving the design too but it still collects all the dust, so oh well... nice video though.