Growing up in an Italian neighborhood in Kansas city back in the 80's the .38 Snubnose was the gun I saw everywhere, and today even though I own high capacity semi auto handguns I find myself still carrying a 38 Snubnose most of the time, oh yeah and a switchblade.
Lol..does your girlfriend keep the switchblade in her hair too....it's a joke like the oldays ya know...didn't want it to sound like I was calling you a sissy or sum..I mostly carry my snub now that i need a new holster for my glock 26
a 38 spcl snubby has never been claimed to be a elephant killer. Its a pocket pistol in a small revolver. Its doing what IU would expect . Its lethal and serves it s purpose.
Working security at a local hospital years ago, I came across a homeless man in the ER. He had a terrible, large, unsightly scare on his lower abdomen. I asked him what happened. He said he got shot in the stomach with a 38 special lead hp. According to him they had to remove 12 feet of intestines among other repairs. 38 is no joke.
@@istartedajoke1704 Was he still a threat? I don’t even carry a 38 but I know how efficient the round can be. People have been killing people with calibers like 38 for years. Is it the best option? Nah. Does it work? Same as other outdated calibers like 45 ACP or 357 Magnum. It’ll kill a man. 👌🏻
@@istartedajoke1704Just because you survive a gunshot doesn't mean that you stayed in the fight. For all we know, that guy passed out from massive trauma and internal bleeding.
The 38 Special is a great round. There is nothing wrong with it. It does its job just like it has for over 50 years on the streets. Expansion or no expansion.
Yes even if it doesn't expand. The 158 grain didn't expand but it turned backwards with because of the longer length will do more damage. Plus these fixed sight guns are generally sighted for 158 grain bullets from the factory. Accuracy is king and penetration is queen.
I have switched my snubby 38 Spc loading to the 130 gr HP. I have used a S&W 36 for years, and gifted several to my brothers, SIL, and wife. Wad cutters are still a good choice; the 158 gr Keith Style bullet at regular load level universally affective! I have a departed friend's M36 that he carried for years for his Deputy and Jailer work; if you can hold it, it shots like a rifle!
my 38sp revolver ammo: wadcutter for alloy frame, ball for steel frame. i never bothered with all the fancy defensive ammo. i carry what i practice with, and i can hit with what i practice.
I tend to agree - velocity is likely the main factor in expansion or lack of it. Still, I'd wager that 4 out of 5 bad guys would prefer not to be shot with ANY of those rounds. Stay safe out there. Cheers.
I carried a chief special as my backup gun to my Glock 22 for many years. I was first issued Winchester LSWCHP and later Speer Gold Dot 125 JHP. In my opinion, the HST 130 grain is the best option in a snub that I’ve ever seen. As with any load however, there’s always a negative. I’ve found it tough to consistently reload any revolver, under stress, while using a speedloader or individual rounds. It’s profile is so blunt that they almost refuse to go into a cylinder’s charging holes.
Good video. There are no 38 special loads that reliably expand from a 2 inch barrel. Stick to standard pressure wadcutters because penetration is essential, expansion is not. Better recoil control will also up your accuracy which is also essential. I will carry a wadcutter over any over hyped JHP. I really like the hardcast wadcutters from Buffalo Bore and Underwood which are both loaded right at the standard pressure max SAAMI specs.
I've the same problem. Beginning to believe it might be due in part to the cylinder gap of of 0.0111 on my Smith &Wesson 649. Carried a lot, shot very little. May see if Smith will warranty it.
@@donsettie4739 I do use those Hornady 110 +P in my quick strips and speedloaders because they have such conical bullet shapes they aid a stressful reload a lot in my timed trials. The downside is my old snub has fixed sights regulated to 158 grain and the new 642 is regulated to 125 grain so the 110 shoots quite a bit low,especially in the old gun, and I like shooting to POA/POI at least on my initial response.
@@indianajets they don't shoot as accurately out of a snub nose, not enough barrel to influence them, but heavy for caliber cast are going to be most accurate out of snubbies cause they are typically slightly oversized and swage down a bit as they enter the forcing cone which really helps with accuracy.
That HST made me a believer for definitely a snub nose. It has always mushroomed perfectly with every other semi auto and for federal to think ahead of the curve and design the HST for a snub nose and other barrel lengths, they beat all others.
Dang..man, I'm starting to get addicted to your channel. I'm a 38/357 fan and you're putting up a lot of data, no one dose gel test where I live so it's interesting to see. We usually just shoot 2x4's, but of course one can't see expansion in them. Appreciate your time bro, keep em comin.
14 inches in gel does not mean it'll go 14 inches in a person, people have varying tissue densities as well as a bone structure to contend with. Not to mention that it's never a guerentee you're going to get a square on shot, for example. If a bad guy has his arms at extension, the way he would if he was pointing a gun at someone, your shot may travel through his arm before it enters his chest cavity. Things like that. The testing protocol for 12-18 inches in gel just means that that round will still adequately penetrate in a human attacker.
Great video. I think it all boils down to where you put the bullet in the bad guy. Also, the bad guy is not gonna ask you what type round you have in your 38. He’s just gonna see the pistol for what it is and know he doesn’t want to get blasted on.
I run .38 158g soft point flat nose from my henry lever gun (17" barrel).. Out of the henry, let me tell you, the round becomes supersonic and it expands a ton with solid penetration. And we are talking JSP here..not even JHP. It has absolute stopping power. From a large frame wheel gun, I would feel confident too..but from the henry? It is incredible. Don't even get me started on 357 JSP/JHP from the henry. That is even better. I have penetrated 3A with it, with expansion, and with minimal recoil. But for any in-home situations....38 all day
The hst is designed to expand but according to your test, the hornady seems the better choice. I've seen other test and it's probably one of the best all around snub nose self defense 38 special available. The recoil and flash is not substantial apparently. Thanks 👍
Just my opinion, I think expansion in low velocity ammo is over rated, poking holes in vitals is priority number one. FMJ ammo is my choice in .38 .380 or .22. , the high velocity stuff makes more sense for expansion. Thanks for sharing.
I roll my own 38 and 357. When I was making rounds for my LCR, I tried max power 38+P for a carry round. The gun handled them but my hand didn't like them. I lowered the spiciness a bit so they'll still be fun to shoot. I like Hornady XTP projectiles for carry ammo. I just use cheap bulk bullets for plinking stuff. If you like 38 and 357 revolvers, you need a lever gun that shoots them too. I have a Henry big boy. It's accurate and soft shooting in these calibers.
The "FBI" load was actually designed by Winchester-Western (now just Winchester) for the St. Louis P.D. back in the 1970's or late 1960's, hence the Index Number of "X38SPD" and later "W38SPD" with the SPD being for St. Louis P.D. The FBI adopted it several years later. I chronographed them from my 4" Service Revolver at just over 900 fps. Back then. They expanded somewhat from my 2" Model 10 S&W, but the expansion notably increased when fired through a 4" .38. Test medium was water jugs. (Bare Jugs)
I have both of those rounds and pretty much prefer the 130 HST... I've seen tests where it did penetrate between 11 and 12.5". Always expanded. I think it comes down to ft lbs. The 110 always expanded but is a light for caliber round. I still think it's going to come down to shot placement first then penetration and then expansion. I think the 130gr comes the closest. I sometimes load five of those and for reloads in a speedloader Gold Dot 135 gr short barrel. They are accurate and easier for a quick reload than the wadcutter.
I carry my Glock 26 as back up to my every day carry 642 air weight because “ one is none and two is one when shit hits the fan!” The air weight snub is perfect for that up close shit and the Glock if it turns to a gun fight. 😁✌️🇺🇸
There are two bullets that work well in Snub nose revolvers. Speer short barrel 130 gold dot , and the Buffalo Bore 158 lhp in standard and plus p versions. 110gr lhp are useless. Jacketed bullets inn158!gr are useless. They lack expansion and don’t travel fast enough to need a jacket. The 38 snubbie works best with the 158 lhp. Penetrates and expands
Hollow point is a waste of time in a 2in barrel thats why i just carry FMJ+P. The hollow points don't expand so why waste the $$. Enjoyed the video great testing 👍👍
Nice job cleaning up that gel block. It had outstanding clarity to view the bullet travel. Wish you would’ve run a chronograph for those rounds, the 642 is such a common carry gun that a lot would like to know those results too. Thanks for the video!
The Hornady and Federal HST all do great In my 3” SW Model 36 and 4” Ruger Service Six. Good pen and good expansion. Guardian Gold had good penetration but little expansion.
Exactly what I needed to see the performance of Hornady critical defense 38 spl +P 110 gr FTX. I noticed I have several cases of this ammo and wanted to see if it's a keeper or just use it at the range. Definitely a keeper. Thanks
I like soft lead, about 12 hardness in the j-frame. I load a 125gr HP. It runs about 850fps. It expands. It is not going to over penetrate. I tried to duplicate the old FBI load with a 158, but in the snub nose, the velocity is not there. I like to pour my own lead bullets for certain applications.
I remember when the SWCHP was the FBI load of choice. Hardened lead semi wad cutter hollow point. 125 grain. Ballsistics is a funny animal to play with.
My test media is that of feral hogs and coyote that roam my place out in the woods of East Texas. Now I haven't shot a factory load in 38Spl in decades. Thus, my handloads are what I use. One consists of a soft cast 160gr Ideal/Lyman Keith SWC HP loaded to 850 fps from the snubnose. With a S&W 642, I've dropped two hogs around 150# in weight with a single round to the heart and lung area. Both ran a few feet then dropped. Only one coyote has been close enough for the snubnose, and shot behind the shoulder area, he went down almost instantly. I don't load any jacketed bullets in a 38Spl, as it does not achieve the needed velocity for expansion. It is my belief that JHPs in a 38 snubnose is a waste of money and further, are not effective enough in creating reliable terminal damage.
Hornady Critical Defense, .38 Special, FTX, 110 Grain. Is not perfect but if you look at every webpage or youtube channel this round is the one they test it against
Oh the 38 special was designed to fire 158 grain bullets. Not 130 or 110 or 125. Have you ever shot groups with all of these weights??? They are getting 6, 8, inch groups at 10 yards, while a 158 grain semi wadcutter gets 1 inch groups. That means that I can put a round wright in the eye at that distance or a head or pelvic or right into the heart. It won’t matter if the bullet expands or not. One shot one kill. All that in a snuby. Shot placement trumps everything.
What people fail to realize is this gun was made for up close personal defense.. Regardless if you shoot an aggressor with any of those rounds they’re going re think they’re entire life if they live of course.
The one thing that was unmentioned was grain weight also contributes accuracy in a nutshell the heavier the projectile out of a shorter barrel the more accurate within a reasonable shooting environment
38spl snub most likely will not expand. Not enough velocity. You may get lucky and have one open up..cast lead bullet work just as good if not better .
When it comes to fixed sight handguns the thing I worry least about is expansion .... because if you don't hit where your aiming at it doesn't matter how much it expands .. My snubbie is a steel model with fixed sights ... the ONLY bullet that shoots accurate for mine is 158 grain .( although 148 gr. wadcutters are a pretty close 2nd) I shoot a 6 inch target at 35 yards (across my pond) and if I use lighter than 158 gr. bullets they won't hit the small target ... the sights for an old school steel snubbie are set for 158 grain bullets .. I would like to buy an Airweight kind of snubbie but these are fixed sight guns too and these gun makers never tell you what bullet weight their gun sights are factory set for ? The 130 gr. HST and the 110 gr. look impressive , but since they are not 158 gr. my steel snubbie will not shoot them point-to-aim ..
I don't mess with revolvers much, but this is still really interesting to see. I did shoot some really strange 9mm ammo today. They called it +M (mass) 185 grain 9mm ammo. Has a strange 2 piece case. It was a lot more accurate than I expected to be & the recoil felt pretty much identical to normal 9mm ammo. Think it's made by a company called Seismic Ammo. Might be something fun to test. Hopefully I can find some fun 10mm stuff to try out soon. The Glock 20 is fast becoming my favorite handgun.
Penetration beyond 16 inches runs the risk of exiting the bad guy and hitting an innocent bystander. Expansion is not nearly as important as what critical body structure is hit. Hit the liver, aorta, heart, head, or any major artery and the party is over with a .38 special. The other question is adrenalin or drugs affecting the bad guy. Give someone enough meth and only a head or heart shot will stop them regardless of caliber. I know of a defendant who was hit 6-7 times with a .223 and survived. All I know is if I was hit by a .38 through a snub nose anywhere I would stop in my tracks.
Now is not the time to be buying ammo, but this weekend Dec. 19-20 the big Atlanta Expo gun show is in town. I hope I can find the HST .38 special at a responsible price. I’m going to hopefully find some different 22lr ammo. I have put a big dent in my 22lr ammo stockpiles. When I need to pop off a few the Ruger Mark lV and the 10/22 have been my guns of choice lately.
Nice work man...38 snub nose might not be perfect for cc but...it's gonna suck to get shot with that either way...it's like saying is this commuter car, or dump truck going to do a better job of running someone over with...it's going to suck for the recipient both ways lol.
* Seating a 130 gr bullet fully into the cartridge case has nothing to do with changing the capacity of the case. It does reduce the remaining volume inside the case that is avaliable for powder and expansion of gases. With a normal 130 gr bullet powder charge, the pressure might spike upon ignition in the smaller volume of space, which I think was your point in telling us of a precaution. ... I'm an old fart now. Back in the 60s, there was no very effective self defense load in .38 Special available. Standard pressure/velocity soft swaged lead 158 gr semiwadcutter hollow points were about the best bet. Expert gun magazine writers were using those swaged lead 148 gr hollow base wadcutters seated upside down and roll crimped over the then full diameter HP for self defense, as you mentioned. ... When I got orders from Uncle Sam to deploy to RVN as an Army Infantry NCO, I bought a Pacific Super C reloading press kit and loaded a bunch of upside down 148 gr HB wadcutters into nickel cases and sealed the primers with nail polish. It took 100 of them and a Model 36 Chiefs Special with a Tylers T Grip adapter to war with me. Fortunately, I never had the opportunity to test them out on communist infantry, my M-16A1 saw to that. ... I have a first run 640 Centennial with Crimson Trace lazer kraton boot grips now and it's loaded with those 130 gr HST Micro +P. Reloads are other light for caliber +P conventional bonded JHPs in Bianchi Speed Strips, as they load somewhat faster than the blunt faced HSTs. ... Great comparison video. Thanks, my friend.
Great testing. I really enjoy your videos. I have found that in general, the Hornady HTP bullets are very tough and do not expand well for me at .38 special velocity. I find they do a bit better when loaded in .357 mag where I can push them in the 1200 fps+ range. Even then, they do not provide the greatest expansion but they are tough and will hold together quite well when encountering bone while still providing excellent penetration. One of the solutions I have come up with for my .38 special snubs is the use of hardcast, full wadcutter bullets. They will provide a deep, crushing would cavity and will provide great penetration that is not as dependent on velocity. With the full wadcutter, worrying about expansion is no longer a concern. However, if you are concerned about over penetration, they may not be the bullet for you. The Federal HST bullet looks promising. Great job and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much. The 38 is definitely walking the line on velocity thresholds for many bullets. It truly comes down to what you prefer for you carry load.
"There's nothing special about the .38 special" Not sure where I heard that but honestly even the rounds that didn't expand properly are going to cause you to have a bad day. Is anyone else NOT surprised that the Federal HST performed the best?
org hydro shock was the wad cutter hollow point with a stem in it made by scorpon co then they sold out ..they worked very well soft lead non +p made nice holes from alum frame j frame and charterarms 5 shot snubbys in 1970's
I think we worry too much about expansion. Penetration is key and preferably with a fairly flat meplat. The HBWC is an excellent round but I would love to see some work on soft lead round ball ala Wild Bill's Navies. I bet some very fine results could be had with such a load.
As I have been told I'm more than one occasion it doesn't matter when you hit him with a 22 long rifle or 8-in howitzer if he's not hit in the right place it ain't going to f****** matter
Ive killed about a dozen wild hogs in my garden with a .38 and another 6 or 7 with a .380. the .38 really sits them down while they kick and squeal and die about 30 seconds later.
I reload that bullet: it is about the same length as a typical 148gr lead wadcutter... For a start load using the load data for the heavier 148gr wadcutter placed the same depth into the case makes total sense, IMHO. The can is there for bullet terminal performance, not as a place to crimp (although it can be done, but.. Why? ). I have also loaded this bullet a bit hotter in 357 Magnum brass. You didn't mention any recoil comparisons nor anything as to your actual powder selection and load for the HST Micro either...?
I have the smith 642. My grandmother carries one as well.. I ordered a box of Corbin dpx.. most expensive ammo ever purchased.. wouldn’t expand right. Very deformed and tumbled backwards with only half expansion..that’s a great round for anything other than a snub. I didn’t care for critical defense either
You know, I've seen a bunch of these videos of all kinds of different calibers, and I'm starting to wonder, do hollowpoints even work? I feel like I've never actually seen them expand properly, if at all, in these ballistic gel tests 🤨
@@thegundungeon alright, but it's kinda concerning that a lot of commercial self defence ammo does not work as advertised... That sounds like a potentially huge lawsuit waiting to happen
The lack of expansion is a real bummer in a 38 snubnose. The light for caliber ammo seems to work well if only the sights were better regulated. Most snubnose guns shoot low with light for caliber ammo. My solution is to carry full wadcutters and a reload of the 110 grain FTX. Wadcutters don’t reload very fast.
Optimally, I'd use 148-grain standard pressure wadcutters, for the penetration they give at low velocities. Can't beat the less recoil than +P loads, too.
I've got a smith 637 that carry, I keep it loaded with either Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel or Corbon 110 dpx +p, I'd like to get my hands on some of that federal micro stuff though.
You overlock two improtent poinst here. Even so they dont expand, they do not overpenetrate and they do tumble. The wounding from the tumbling was quite huge. But the HST I think is one of the best .38 snubby loads.
I think I'd pick the 110gr +P... Looks like it has best of both worlds.... It did get some expansion AND it did penetrate past 12" BUT not past 18" so.... Based on the expansion and the penetration I think the 110gr +P was best here ...
I must say I have shot just 158 gr solids and have killed lots and I mean lots of hogs with a single body shot and I'm talking 300 lbs of thick ass hog shield and no problem
I use the Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain FTX, but in the standard pressure. Would you know how the +p version would compare to the standard pressure version in the gel?
That 110 did better than I expected. In my experience, XTPs don't expand unless you really hurl them. I would save them for longer barrels or magnum use. The bullet tumbling does seem to do more damage in that clear ballistics stuff. I have no idea how or if that translates to living animals. I'm no expert on terminal ballistics, but I don't think the HST really penetrated enough. I wouldn't want to be shot by one though. But I can say that about 22LR as well.
This is why I prefer .327 Federal out of a snubby. No trouble getting good expansion and penetration for no more recoil than a hot .38. In .38, I'd opt for HST or basic wadcutters, with something more traditional at the tip for easy reloads.
Growing up in an Italian neighborhood in Kansas city back in the 80's the .38 Snubnose was the gun I saw everywhere, and today even though I own high capacity semi auto handguns I find myself still carrying a 38 Snubnose most of the time, oh yeah and a switchblade.
The Italian area of Kansas City isn't an area of law abiding people ?
I see a knife, I run.
I find it more comfortable to conceal carry, you can barely notice its there.
Gotta have the switch blade man. SE Ks here
Lol..does your girlfriend keep the switchblade in her hair too....it's a joke like the oldays ya know...didn't want it to sound like I was calling you a sissy or sum..I mostly carry my snub now that i need a new holster for my glock 26
a 38 spcl snubby has never been claimed to be a elephant killer. Its a pocket pistol in a small revolver. Its doing what IU would expect . Its lethal and serves it s purpose.
Working security at a local hospital years ago, I came across a homeless man in the ER. He had a terrible, large, unsightly scare on his lower abdomen. I asked him what happened. He said he got shot in the stomach with a 38 special lead hp. According to him they had to remove 12 feet of intestines among other repairs. 38 is no joke.
He got to the hospital and lived.......38 didn't take him out of the fight
@@istartedajoke1704
Clearly the threat is eliminated.
Gut shots aren’t that lethal anyway.
@@istartedajoke1704 SOUNDS LIKE IT DID
@@istartedajoke1704 Was he still a threat? I don’t even carry a 38 but I know how efficient the round can be. People have been killing people with calibers like 38 for years. Is it the best option? Nah. Does it work? Same as other outdated calibers like 45 ACP or 357 Magnum. It’ll kill a man. 👌🏻
@@istartedajoke1704Just because you survive a gunshot doesn't mean that you stayed in the fight. For all we know, that guy passed out from massive trauma and internal bleeding.
The 38 Special is a great round. There is nothing wrong with it. It does its job just like it has for over 50 years on the streets. Expansion or no expansion.
120 years...
Yes even if it doesn't expand. The 158 grain didn't expand but it turned backwards with because of the longer length will do more damage. Plus these fixed sight guns are generally sighted for 158 grain bullets from the factory. Accuracy is king and penetration is queen.
@@lylesmith5079As the king I'm always accurate when I penatrate the Queen.
@@IAmNoeyes that joke didn't go over as well as anticipated huh
@@istartedajoke1704 I thought it was gonna slap.
Lots of people knock the .38 as insufficient but all I know is when I needed it the .38 came through for me and I made it to retirement.
Thank you for your service
Keep my air weight 38 at close hand as well
Sir, you deserve the best life has to offer.
Thank you! From one old cop to another.
It's popular where I live, I know a few people who carry the special .38 over their 9mms myself included.
Another great video. I carried that exact S&W revolver as my back-up for over a decade, with a 124g Speer +P. Retired now, still my EDC go to.
I have switched my snubby 38 Spc loading to the 130 gr HP. I have used a S&W 36 for years, and gifted several to my brothers, SIL, and wife. Wad cutters are still a good choice; the 158 gr Keith Style bullet at regular load level universally affective! I have a departed friend's M36 that he carried for years for his Deputy and Jailer work; if you can hold it, it shots like a rifle!
Federal HST in all calibers has earned my respect and trust as EDC ammo.
my 38sp revolver ammo: wadcutter for alloy frame, ball for steel frame. i never bothered with all the fancy defensive ammo. i carry what i practice with, and i can hit with what i practice.
Good philosophy IMO.
I tend to agree - velocity is likely the main factor in expansion or lack of it. Still, I'd wager that 4 out of 5 bad guys would prefer not to be shot with ANY of those rounds. Stay safe out there. Cheers.
I bet you’re right lol. Thanks for watching
Would a longer revolver barrel fix the issue?
@@dannydevito2275it would definitely help.
I carried a chief special as my backup gun to my Glock 22 for many years. I was first issued Winchester LSWCHP and later Speer Gold Dot 125 JHP. In my opinion, the HST 130 grain is the best option in a snub that I’ve ever seen. As with any load however, there’s always a negative. I’ve found it tough to consistently reload any revolver, under stress, while using a speedloader or individual rounds. It’s profile is so blunt that they almost refuse to go into a cylinder’s charging holes.
Good video. There are no 38 special loads that reliably expand from a 2 inch barrel. Stick to standard pressure wadcutters because penetration is essential, expansion is not. Better recoil control will also up your accuracy which is also essential. I will carry a wadcutter over any over hyped JHP. I really like the hardcast wadcutters from Buffalo Bore and Underwood which are both loaded right at the standard pressure max SAAMI specs.
100g Extreme Defender by Lehigh Defense is by far the best..
Try a win. 110 gr +p
I've the same problem. Beginning to believe it might be due in part to the cylinder gap of of 0.0111 on my Smith &Wesson 649. Carried a lot, shot very little. May see if Smith will warranty it.
@@donsettie4739 I do use those Hornady 110 +P in my quick strips and speedloaders because they have such conical bullet shapes they aid a stressful reload a lot in my timed trials. The downside is my old snub has fixed sights regulated to 158 grain and the new 642 is regulated to 125 grain so the 110 shoots quite a bit low,especially in the old gun, and I like shooting to POA/POI at least on my initial response.
@@indianajets they don't shoot as accurately out of a snub nose, not enough barrel to influence them, but heavy for caliber cast are going to be most accurate out of snubbies cause they are typically slightly oversized and swage down a bit as they enter the forcing cone which really helps with accuracy.
I carry a 642 or a model 60 daily. Golden Sabre in both. Those rounds have always expanded perfectly in both .
That HST made me a believer for definitely a snub nose. It has always mushroomed perfectly with every other semi auto and for federal to think ahead of the curve and design the HST for a snub nose and other barrel lengths, they beat all others.
Dang..man, I'm starting to get addicted to your channel. I'm a 38/357 fan and you're putting up a lot of data, no one dose gel test where I live so it's interesting to see. We usually just shoot 2x4's, but of course one can't see expansion in them. Appreciate your time bro, keep em comin.
Thank you, I appreciate the kind words! I hope to continue to keep on keepin on lol.
Try plastic bottles like water/milk jugs filled with water.
Cheap, accesable & will allow for expansion.
@@pewpewTN a clear water balloon with a good slow mo would probably work. But you’d need to see every frame 😂
I'll take the HST designed for the snubbies, even though the penetration is not that great. A human's vitals are not 14 inches below the skin.
Exactly
14 inches in gel does not mean it'll go 14 inches in a person, people have varying tissue densities as well as a bone structure to contend with. Not to mention that it's never a guerentee you're going to get a square on shot, for example. If a bad guy has his arms at extension, the way he would if he was pointing a gun at someone, your shot may travel through his arm before it enters his chest cavity. Things like that. The testing protocol for 12-18 inches in gel just means that that round will still adequately penetrate in a human attacker.
Great video. I think it all boils down to where you put the bullet in the bad guy. Also, the bad guy is not gonna ask you what type round you have in your 38. He’s just gonna see the pistol for what it is and know he doesn’t want to get blasted on.
38 special is a multipurpose round. You can make a basic low power round for new or young shooters to learn on or make a +P that kicks like a mule.
Nice test!
I've tested the Remington Golden Sabre 125gr +p in Clear Balistic out of my 340. Reliably goes 14" and expands to ~.60cal
I run .38 158g soft point flat nose from my henry lever gun (17" barrel).. Out of the henry, let me tell you, the round becomes supersonic and it expands a ton with solid penetration. And we are talking JSP here..not even JHP. It has absolute stopping power. From a large frame wheel gun, I would feel confident too..but from the henry? It is incredible. Don't even get me started on 357 JSP/JHP from the henry. That is even better. I have penetrated 3A with it, with expansion, and with minimal recoil. But for any in-home situations....38 all day
The hst is designed to expand but according to your test, the hornady seems the better choice. I've seen other test and it's probably one of the best all around snub nose self defense 38 special available. The recoil and flash is not substantial apparently. Thanks 👍
Just my opinion, I think expansion in low velocity ammo is over rated, poking holes in vitals is priority number one. FMJ ammo is my choice in .38 .380 or .22. , the high velocity stuff makes more sense for expansion. Thanks for sharing.
158 gr SWC are excellent too.
Thank you . I will use the hornady Its easy to get, less expensive, and does the job. Big fan
Thank you sir. Just picked up a box of critical defense and was hoping the rounds would perform well out of a snub .. looks like they will 👍
I roll my own 38 and 357. When I was making rounds for my LCR, I tried max power 38+P for a carry round. The gun handled them but my hand didn't like them. I lowered the spiciness a bit so they'll still be fun to shoot. I like Hornady XTP projectiles for carry ammo. I just use cheap bulk bullets for plinking stuff. If you like 38 and 357 revolvers, you need a lever gun that shoots them too. I have a Henry big boy. It's accurate and soft shooting in these calibers.
The "FBI" load was actually designed by Winchester-Western (now just Winchester) for the St. Louis P.D. back in the 1970's or late 1960's, hence the Index Number of "X38SPD" and later "W38SPD" with the SPD being for St. Louis P.D. The FBI adopted it several years later. I chronographed them from my 4" Service Revolver at just over 900 fps. Back then. They expanded somewhat from my 2" Model 10 S&W, but the expansion notably increased when fired through a 4" .38. Test medium was water jugs. (Bare Jugs)
I have both of those rounds and pretty much prefer the 130 HST... I've seen tests where it did penetrate between 11 and 12.5". Always expanded. I think it comes down to ft lbs. The 110 always expanded but is a light for caliber round. I still think it's going to come down to shot placement first then penetration and then expansion. I think the 130gr comes the closest. I sometimes load five of those and for reloads in a speedloader Gold Dot 135 gr short barrel. They are accurate and easier for a quick reload than the wadcutter.
Very sound logic. I don’t see the hst lending itself to fast reloading lol
Seeing 21.99 on that box of critical defense really hurt my feelings. Just bought the same box yesterday for 36.99
Years ago like an FBI buddy had told me if it wasn't for the Department issuing the Firearms they were at the time he would still be carrying a 357
Mkay
.38 special snub works. I’d say ask around but those dead men can’t tell tales.
I carry the 642 everyday weather as back up and sometimes primary
Why do u even feel the need for a backup gun
I carry my Glock 26 as back up to my every day carry 642 air weight because
“ one is none and two is one when shit hits the fan!” The air weight snub is perfect for that up close shit and the Glock if it turns to a gun fight. 😁✌️🇺🇸
There are two bullets that work well in Snub nose revolvers. Speer short barrel 130 gold dot , and the Buffalo Bore 158 lhp in standard and plus p versions. 110gr lhp are useless. Jacketed bullets inn158!gr are useless. They lack expansion and don’t travel fast enough to need a jacket. The 38 snubbie works best with the 158 lhp. Penetrates and expands
+1 on the Buffalo Bore soft lead 158g hp
Corbon DPX 110 grain.
158 grain lead round nose or round flat point. Try those. Maybe surised.
Hollow point is a waste of time in a 2in barrel thats why i just carry FMJ+P. The hollow points don't expand so why waste the $$. Enjoyed the video great testing 👍👍
Nice job cleaning up that gel block. It had outstanding clarity to view the bullet travel. Wish you would’ve run a chronograph for those rounds, the 642 is such a common carry gun that a lot would like to know those results too. Thanks for the video!
Buffalo Bore 158gr SoftCast LSWCHP-GC is what the firearms dealer sold me when I got my S&W 442. Zeta6 has great options for speed strips.
The Hornady and Federal HST all do great In my 3” SW Model 36 and 4” Ruger Service Six. Good pen and good expansion. Guardian Gold had good penetration but little expansion.
Exactly what I needed to see the performance of Hornady critical defense 38 spl +P 110 gr FTX. I noticed I have several cases of this ammo and wanted to see if it's a keeper or just use it at the range. Definitely a keeper.
Thanks
I like soft lead, about 12 hardness in the j-frame. I load a 125gr HP. It runs about 850fps. It expands. It is not going to over penetrate. I tried to duplicate the old FBI load with a 158, but in the snub nose, the velocity is not there. I like to pour my own lead bullets for certain applications.
I remember when the SWCHP was the FBI load of choice. Hardened lead semi wad cutter hollow point. 125 grain.
Ballsistics is a funny animal to play with.
My test media is that of feral hogs and coyote that roam my place out in the woods of East Texas. Now I haven't shot a factory load in 38Spl in decades. Thus, my handloads are what I use. One consists of a soft cast 160gr Ideal/Lyman Keith SWC HP loaded to 850 fps from the snubnose. With a S&W 642, I've dropped two hogs around 150# in weight with a single round to the heart and lung area. Both ran a few feet then dropped. Only one coyote has been close enough for the snubnose, and shot behind the shoulder area, he went down almost instantly. I don't load any jacketed bullets in a 38Spl, as it does not achieve the needed velocity for expansion. It is my belief that JHPs in a 38 snubnose is a waste of money and further, are not effective enough in creating reliable terminal damage.
Hornady Critical Defense, .38 Special, FTX, 110 Grain. Is not perfect but if you look at every webpage or youtube channel this round is the one they test it against
Good video. That performance looks pretty good I wouldn't want to get shot by any of them.
Yes! My caliber of choice.
I’m a fan myself lol
Why not 9mm?
Justin go sit in the corner ...
Federal HST all day long Bubba!!
💪😎👍
Oh the 38 special was designed to fire 158 grain bullets. Not 130 or 110 or 125. Have you ever shot groups with all of these weights??? They are getting 6, 8, inch groups at 10 yards, while a 158 grain semi wadcutter gets 1 inch groups. That means that I can put a round wright in the eye at that distance or a head or pelvic or right into the heart. It won’t matter if the bullet expands or not. One shot one kill. All that in a snuby. Shot placement trumps everything.
What people fail to realize is this gun was made for up close personal defense.. Regardless if you shoot an aggressor with any of those rounds they’re going re think they’re entire life if they live of course.
The one thing that was unmentioned was grain weight also contributes accuracy in a nutshell the heavier the projectile out of a shorter barrel the more accurate within a reasonable shooting environment
IMO tumbling does way more damage than an expanding hollow point. Problem is it’s rare and can’t reliably make slow bullets tumble
The 200gr LRN Super Police load seems to be pretty consistent.
38spl snub most likely will not expand. Not enough velocity. You may get lucky and have one open up..cast lead bullet work just as good if not better .
fantastic video. thank you. exact same gun i have, now i know what i should keep it loaded with. thank you again.
Nice video! I would like to see more about your hand loading for the 130 grain Federal.
That 110 gr FTX bullet looks like it performed the best. It probably had lighter recoil then the heavier bullets also.
Just gave you your 450th sub. Keep up the good work 🇺🇲🇺🇲
Awesome! Thank you!
Critical defense 110 and Fed HST 130 I lean towards HST
When it comes to fixed sight handguns the thing I worry least about is expansion .... because if you don't hit where your aiming at it doesn't matter how much it expands .. My snubbie is a steel model with fixed sights ... the ONLY bullet that shoots accurate for mine is 158 grain .( although 148 gr. wadcutters are a pretty close 2nd) I shoot a 6 inch target at 35 yards (across my pond) and if I use lighter than 158 gr. bullets they won't hit the small target ... the sights for an old school steel snubbie are set for 158 grain bullets .. I would like to buy an Airweight kind of snubbie but these are fixed sight guns too and these gun makers never tell you what bullet weight their gun sights are factory set for ? The 130 gr. HST and the 110 gr. look impressive , but since they are not 158 gr. my steel snubbie will not shoot them point-to-aim ..
I tend to favor 150+ grain lead anyway.
I don't mess with revolvers much, but this is still really interesting to see.
I did shoot some really strange 9mm ammo today.
They called it +M (mass) 185 grain 9mm ammo.
Has a strange 2 piece case.
It was a lot more accurate than I expected to be & the recoil felt pretty much identical to normal 9mm ammo.
Think it's made by a company called Seismic Ammo.
Might be something fun to test.
Hopefully I can find some fun 10mm stuff to try out soon.
The Glock 20 is fast becoming my favorite handgun.
I’ll test it if I can find it lol
@@thegundungeon You have to buy it from the maker; not an online sports store.
Penetration beyond 16 inches runs the risk of exiting the bad guy and hitting an innocent bystander. Expansion is not nearly as important as what critical body structure is hit. Hit the liver, aorta, heart, head, or any major artery and the party is over with a .38 special. The other question is adrenalin or drugs affecting the bad guy. Give someone enough meth and only a head or heart shot will stop them regardless of caliber. I know of a defendant who was hit 6-7 times with a .223 and survived. All I know is if I was hit by a .38 through a snub nose anywhere I would stop in my tracks.
Now is not the time to be buying ammo, but this weekend Dec. 19-20 the big Atlanta Expo gun show is in town. I hope I can find the HST .38 special at a responsible price. I’m going to hopefully find some different 22lr ammo. I have put a big dent in my 22lr ammo stockpiles. When I need to pop off a few the Ruger Mark lV and the 10/22 have been my guns of choice lately.
It seems to be an excellent bullet for this purpose
@@thegundungeon yeah. I normally don’t carry a snubbie, but if I did I’d like to have it loaded with HST.
Nice work man...38 snub nose might not be perfect for cc but...it's gonna suck to get shot with that either way...it's like saying is this commuter car, or dump truck going to do a better job of running someone over with...it's going to suck for the recipient both ways lol.
* Seating a 130 gr bullet fully into the cartridge case has nothing to do with changing the capacity of the case. It does reduce the remaining volume inside the case that is avaliable for powder and expansion of gases. With a normal 130 gr bullet powder charge, the pressure might spike upon ignition in the smaller volume of space, which I think was your point in telling us of a precaution. ... I'm an old fart now. Back in the 60s, there was no very effective self defense load in .38 Special available. Standard pressure/velocity soft swaged lead 158 gr semiwadcutter hollow points were about the best bet. Expert gun magazine writers were using those swaged lead 148 gr hollow base wadcutters seated upside down and roll crimped over the then full diameter HP for self defense, as you mentioned. ... When I got orders from Uncle Sam to deploy to RVN as an Army Infantry NCO, I bought a Pacific Super C reloading press kit and loaded a bunch of upside down 148 gr HB wadcutters into nickel cases and sealed the primers with nail polish. It took 100 of them and a Model 36 Chiefs Special with a Tylers T Grip adapter to war with me. Fortunately, I never had the opportunity to test them out on communist infantry, my M-16A1 saw to that. ... I have a first run 640 Centennial with Crimson Trace lazer kraton boot grips now and it's loaded with those 130 gr HST Micro +P. Reloads are other light for caliber +P conventional bonded JHPs in Bianchi Speed Strips, as they load somewhat faster than the blunt faced HSTs. ... Great comparison video. Thanks, my friend.
Thanks for the video. Clear and to the point.
Did you find HST bullets as a component or did you pull them from factory loads?
I lucked into them as components from midway. I bought several then but not sure how available they are now.
I do not have a 38 spl. I use a Ruger security 6 4". 357,but i carry 125 grn 38 spl. Its like shoot a 22. Very accurate.😊
Great testing. I really enjoy your videos. I have found that in general, the Hornady HTP bullets are very tough and do not expand well for me at .38 special velocity. I find they do a bit better when loaded in .357 mag where I can push them in the 1200 fps+ range. Even then, they do not provide the greatest expansion but they are tough and will hold together quite well when encountering bone while still providing excellent penetration. One of the solutions I have come up with for my .38 special snubs is the use of hardcast, full wadcutter bullets. They will provide a deep, crushing would cavity and will provide great penetration that is not as dependent on velocity. With the full wadcutter, worrying about expansion is no longer a concern. However, if you are concerned about over penetration, they may not be the bullet for you. The Federal HST bullet looks promising. Great job and keep up the good work.
Thank you very much. The 38 is definitely walking the line on velocity thresholds for many bullets. It truly comes down to what you prefer for you carry load.
My apologies, I meant to say Hornady XTP.
"There's nothing special about the .38 special" Not sure where I heard that but honestly even the rounds that didn't expand properly are going to cause you to have a bad day.
Is anyone else NOT surprised that the Federal HST performed the best?
org hydro shock was the wad cutter hollow point with a stem in it made by scorpon co then they sold out ..they worked very well soft lead non +p made nice holes from alum frame j frame and charterarms 5 shot snubbys in 1970's
Very interesting. Keep up the good work.
Thank you sir!
I think we worry too much about expansion. Penetration is key and preferably with a fairly flat meplat.
The HBWC is an excellent round but I would love to see some work on soft lead round ball ala Wild Bill's Navies. I bet some very fine results could be had with such a load.
As I have been told I'm more than one occasion it doesn't matter when you hit him with a 22 long rifle or 8-in howitzer if he's not hit in the right place it ain't going to f****** matter
What I learned here is that it will indeed put a hole in a human body it just won't create an optimal wound channel.
In my ultralight I carry 110 Hornady cd...
Ive killed about a dozen wild hogs in my garden with a .38 and another 6 or 7 with a .380. the .38 really sits them down while they kick and squeal and die about 30 seconds later.
Did law enforcement ever use 38 special?
Most definitely
Hst out of those choices however I’m a staunch believer in lead loads in 38 special saving the jacketed/plated stuff for 357.
Excellent test. With no denim in front of the gel the test is meaningless. But these are genuine results with real meaning.
damn! $21 for the hornady ftx 2 years ago - bought a 25round box a week ago and its now $59.99
I might have had these sitting on the shelf for a minute before this video lol
Great video!! Thanks!
Just a opinion but to get the true possible bullet performance place a t shirt or jacket over the gel block
I reload that bullet: it is about the same length as a typical 148gr lead wadcutter... For a start load using the load data for the heavier 148gr wadcutter placed the same depth into the case makes total sense, IMHO. The can is there for bullet terminal performance, not as a place to crimp (although it can be done, but.. Why? ). I have also loaded this bullet a bit hotter in 357 Magnum brass. You didn't mention any recoil comparisons nor anything as to your actual powder selection and load for the HST Micro either...?
I have the smith 642. My grandmother carries one as well.. I ordered a box of Corbin dpx.. most expensive ammo ever purchased.. wouldn’t expand right. Very deformed and tumbled backwards with only half expansion..that’s a great round for anything other than a snub. I didn’t care for critical defense either
Great video! More please.
You know, I've seen a bunch of these videos of all kinds of different calibers, and I'm starting to wonder, do hollowpoints even work? I feel like I've never actually seen them expand properly, if at all, in these ballistic gel tests 🤨
The slow rounds tend to struggle. Expansion is heavily dependent on velocity.
@@thegundungeon alright, but it's kinda concerning that a lot of commercial self defence ammo does not work as advertised... That sounds like a potentially huge lawsuit waiting to happen
The lack of expansion is a real bummer in a 38 snubnose. The light for caliber ammo seems to work well if only the sights were better regulated. Most snubnose guns shoot low with light for caliber ammo. My solution is to carry full wadcutters and a reload of the 110 grain FTX. Wadcutters don’t reload very fast.
You are correct. The hst load here seemed to hit closer to point of aim, but those wouldn’t reload well either.
Optimally, I'd use 148-grain standard pressure wadcutters, for the penetration they give at low velocities. Can't beat the less recoil than +P loads, too.
I've got a smith 637 that carry, I keep it loaded with either Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +p short barrel or Corbon 110 dpx +p, I'd like to get my hands on some of that federal micro stuff though.
@Rene Lemire Nah it's plenty and you have no clue of what you are spewing.
Won't expand reliably in me Smith 2".
You overlock two improtent poinst here. Even so they dont expand, they do not overpenetrate and they do tumble. The wounding from the tumbling was quite huge. But the HST I think is one of the best .38 snubby loads.
Great video! I recently purchased a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard 38 Special Plus P. Can I use regular 38 special ammo?
I think I'd pick the 110gr +P... Looks like it has best of both worlds.... It did get some expansion AND it did penetrate past 12" BUT not past 18" so.... Based on the expansion and the penetration I think the 110gr +P was best here ...
I must say I have shot just 158 gr solids and have killed lots and I mean lots of hogs with a single body shot and I'm talking 300 lbs of thick ass hog shield and no problem
I don’t expect a 38 spl to expand. It a shot placement and double taps. 38 spl works. Just got to know you limitation.
Easy test to see if the denim was the issue
Just came across your video. Very good testing, subbed.
Great video!! Thank you for sharing!!
I'd choose the one that is most accurate
I wish I could find some of those Federal HST Micro's!
Good videos, thanks
I use the Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain FTX, but in the standard pressure. Would you know how the +p version would compare to the standard pressure version in the gel?
That 110 did better than I expected. In my experience, XTPs don't expand unless you really hurl them. I would save them for longer barrels or magnum use. The bullet tumbling does seem to do more damage in that clear ballistics stuff. I have no idea how or if that translates to living animals. I'm no expert on terminal ballistics, but I don't think the HST really penetrated enough. I wouldn't want to be shot by one though. But I can say that about 22LR as well.
This is why I prefer .327 Federal out of a snubby. No trouble getting good expansion and penetration for no more recoil than a hot .38. In .38, I'd opt for HST or basic wadcutters, with something more traditional at the tip for easy reloads.