ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Seeing Red: Buffy 6x19 Reaction
#buffythevampireslayer #reaction #dakara
I watch all of these on Patreon in their extended form, I am much further ahead on Patreon so if that interests you click the My Links below and come and join the Dak Pack!
Video edited by Purple Nurple, show her some love - channel linked below:
/ @purplenurplespn
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @dakarajayne
⭐️*My Links*⭐️ - linktr.ee/Daka...
📦*MAIL*📦 - Send me a nice lil surprise if you wish? :)
Dakara
PO Box 1400
WARRINGTON
WA4 9XH
🙏*Amazon Wish List*🙏 www.amazon.co....
My Moderators ► Toad | Darynidia | Dolores | Fernando | Angel | Liam | Sharon | Venice | Exazee | Butterfleaz
Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favour of fair use.
![จบจนได้ ! | Black Myth: Wukong #007 [ตอนจบ?]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DSqvWndF0sw/mqdefault.jpg)
Steven Moffat, George R R Martin, and Joss Whedon walk into a bar, and all your favorite characters die.
I like that. 😅
I'm a Moffat fanboy...
Heeeeeeey! 🤣
Never heard the name Moffat before, had to google that one.
Joss and Steven are actually very good friends this days lol
@@ibgvoxJoss still has friends?
The way I said "oh god" before even clicking on this vid... I'm so sorry, we've all been here
Same. I literally braced myself and said, “Oh boy, here we go,” out loud. It’s THIS one. 😢
☝️☝️
Ah me too! Lol 🙈
I did the "Office" meme "No! No! God! Please! No!"
@@Mrs.Watcher Haha literally!
James has said that he physically felt devastated after doing that bathroom scene so much that he collapsed in the hallway part of the set and cried, and curled into a ball and got physically ill.
He said Sarah had to comfort him and calm him down, reassuring him that she was fine.
He also said that from that point on he had a clause put into any acting job, going forward, that he will never do a scene like that again.
This season was no longer about monsters and villains as metaphors for life's issues. This time the characters themselves became their own worst enemies and had to deal with real life issues head on...like real adults.
It felt like an eternity for the next week's episode when this aired. But, believe it or not, season 6 is my #1 favorite season because things got real and the stories didn't pull any punches. This was the show like you've never seen it before.
Rule #1 of any Whedon show: always be suspicious of happy moments. All happy moments are simply setups for terrible things to happen.
Rule #2 of any Whedon show: The terrible things will be much worse than you expect.
Richard Condon, author of The Manchurian Candidate, had a saying” If you can imagine it, it’s worse” Your statement is true
Yes, I think everyone gets to this point and seems to forget that when things are going really right, then the PAIN is coming soon.
It is a hard watch, but this is Buffy.
Rule# 3. Everyone will be disgusted but he will be happy because he did smth what he really wanted. Doesn't really matter for him and all of them what it actually is.
True, but unlike sometimes IRL, it usually does end up worth it and makes storytelling sense, in the end (where real llife is more or less chaos)... the bad stuff is also used set up good stuff.
Also, romantically, no healthy couple ever gets a happy ending. Though most of the Whedonverse relationships are not healthy anyway.
Just from the thumbnail. I said "OH NO!! Poor Dakara!!!"
Hilarious that the Orbs of Nezzla'kan, the objects that give nerdy Warren his strength, are literally a pair of balls
Hang in there Dakara. We've all been there. Keep in mind why the highs are so high in this show, when it crashes into the lows. Looking forward to follow your Buffyverse journey to the end.
Yes. I'm pausing EVERYTHING else right now for this....
Shit, I'm already crying....
On behalf of the entire fanbase: _We are deeply sorry for your sense of loss and will gladly contribute to the required therapy._
The 10 minutes after watching this episode for the first time is always the worst 😭
If it's any comfort about the bathroom scene, James Marsters hated acting it every bit as much as we hated watching it, and supposedly he had it put in his future contracts that he wouldn't ever have to do that type of scene again.
Yeah it would be kinda weird if he be didn’t
To be an extra middle finger to viewers, throughout the show so far Amber Benson who played Tara has been listed as a guest star. This was the first episode that she was officially listed as a part of the cast in the opening credits
Joss had wanted to do that all along. Eric Balfour was supposed to be in the opening credits for the first two episodes then removed after "The Harvest" to let viewers know that no one is safe on the show. However, back in the day opening credits were suuuuuuuper expensive to produce and they didn't have the budget to have two different opening credits the first season.
At least Amber got to create the Audible Buffyverse on Amazon and James and Charisma and others were able to voice their characters again.
That's not an extra middle finger to viewers, it was a nice goodbye present for Amber Benson because that promotion to main cast even for one episode meant a substantial pay bump.
Amber has said in many interviews how she does not think well of Tara’s death. It’s an awful trope.
@@fabianhebestreit3240 It was actually Amber's idea not to be in the main credits because if you were in the main credits, you were required to be on set, regardless if you're in any of the scenes filmed that day. This actually gave Amber more freedom.
"Who says that about her sister?" To be fair, her sister had just betrayed her in one of the worst ways possible.
i think cause and effect are pretty debatable there. if she talks about her sister that way, it can't be terribly surprising that said sister doesn't feel particularly loyal.
@@sirmoonslosthismind Victim blaming. Fun.
It's clear this girl is shallow and treats the sister she deems inferior to her, pretty badly. Not saying her sister is good but obviously gets revenge by sleeping with her man. lol What a family!😅
@@JoshuaMartian-go3tm The thing is, we have no evidence of that or information saying that. The only info we have is that the sister slept with this girls man. Whatever else you people are reading into it, that's coming from you. Not the show. You're projecting. There's no real reason to think this girl that Anya is talking to did anything wrong.
@@Phoenixdark1 No, I agree, we don't have the full story of her, her sister and her boyfriend. We don't know if her sister is just a cruel sociaopath or if her boyfriend is a player or if her sister got her boyfriend drunk and tricked him or if she cheated on him first or if she is a toxic person and her sister and boyfriend fell in love or if she truly is the only victim of cruel people around her. But her words say A LOT. Gives insight to her world view, her values. "She's not even pretty" ... "she's fat" ... Being a victim and being superficial are not mutually exclusive. 😉
The Spike Buffy Scene was written and originated by a female writer on the show Jane Espenson. She was drawing the scene from personal experience due to break up.
Don't google her name until after the season is over. There are some spoilers on the context of this scene you watched in this episode.
Your reaction very appropriate. Its hard to watch. Rough. But its also the main theme of this season that the biggest horror's don't necessarily come from just demons and the supernatural but from real life violence and trauma.
This is the most emotionally difficult episode to watch. Brutal. It does not get any easier 22 years later. I never thought I would hear crying and hatred to match Passion after Angel killed Jenny. The cries and hope for Tara was gut wrenching but the visceral anger and hate for Warren has never been matched.
There is no defense for Spike but… And this is an observation I only noticed on my rewatch… go back to the next morning scene with Spike and Buffy in Smashed. Spike grabs Buffy( like in Seeing Red)and keeps pulling Buffy towards him while Buffy says No several times. Then after 2 or 3 No’s!, Buffy holds Spike and gives him some passionate kisses. When we first saw this the feeling was of disgust with Spike but no one believed Buffy was in danger of being raped. She is The Slayer and can beat Spike. But one of my girlfriend watching buddies explained why this scene is so important. She told me that many assaults that are committed are not strangers but men known by the victims. She told me that this is one of the tragic incidents in a toxic relationship. Spike and Buffy has been an abusive relationship with boundaries being violated and with disturbing outcomes.Without a soul Spike only knows that desire/ passion needs satisfaction regardless of consequences. The Spike/ Angel duality is on display if you recall the Angel narration in Passion. The voice over that Angel gives us could easily be Spikes in this episode.
I enjoy your reactions but there is never any joy after this tragic episode ends. You did a superlative job with the content you were reacting to and absorbing. The Body attacks our thoughts on life and death. Seeing Red assaults all that we hold decent and asks the unanswerable question.. Why do bad things happen to good people?
Not just good people - bad things happens with everyone sooner or later. I think "the Body" shows this perfectly - the greatest horror of life is not that life is cruel to good people but that life is indifferent to morality and happiness of it's victims.
I think the point the writers are trying to get across is that with all the deamons and monsters, it comes down to 3 normal guys. There are Warren's in every walk of life it came down to him getting that gun in the end and causing more damage than any other creature can do😢
Those normal guys aren't that normal since they're extensions of JW (brooding misogynism, compulsive dishonesty and blatant cowardice).
After a season where the big bad was a god, seeing the damage that humans can do to each other is a real contrast
@@user-xl6bk2gd3f yeah, and that’s how you top a god. Go real. (Also get personal). Kudos to the writers for seeing that.
I think the thing people forget is, is that Spike is still a demon. Think of Angelus. How absolutely cruel he is. The fact that Spike was this "good" all this time, was the exception to the rule.
You also have to consider Why Spike thought what he was doing was OK. Not just because he is a demon. But because their sexual relationship was STARTED by a fit of mutual violence. It was founded on a basis of Buffy Saying no no no and then changing her mind over and over.
Not saying what Spike did was right. It was definitely wrong, but you have to understand the nuances of their relationship and how he came to the conclusion that this approach might work.
Also, I’m pretty sure if Dawn didn’t have that little talk with him at his crypt earlier in the episode, he never would’ve gone over there thinking she still loved him.
I always thought he was a soulless demon, even at that time when spike chip didn't work after he hit buffy, the audience thought he a new good guy but after he found out the chip didn't work, he went out and found the girl in alley and about kill her, he didn't changed
What Spike did was horrible, but nothing compared to what Angelus has done and the main difference between them is one has remorse and regret, and the other doesn't.
@@JoshuaMartian-go3tmI think their behavior as vampires comes from how they were as humans. Angelus was a drunk party boy with nothing going for him while spike was a sensitive poet that was made fun of.
@@weaponsofwarfare9537 Yes, I've said that before too. In this world, the human still exists but a demon inhabits them as well. So it's an internal battle. Angelus seems to have given in to the demon and he needs that soul to be good, whereas Spike seems to have moments of compassion, acts of good even before the chip. Meeting Buffy has changed him, even Drusilla saw it. I mean Spike could have klld Buffy at any time after realizing his chip doesn't work on her, yet he restrains himself.
The fact you feel the way you do after this episode, shows just how great this show is. I was at a loss of words after watching my first time. ❤❤
At this point everyone loves Spike, and they forget that he is, was and will be a villain, he cannot change, he is a vampire, (remember: he kill 2 slayers, a lot of people inclunding kids) something artificial keeps him in line, but he cannot change, nor evolve, nor improve. Whedon sometimes takes a bath of reality and this episode does it with force. Which can be worse than fighting a goddess like the previous season? and... of course a very real monster like Warren. That's why I like the trio, they seem like harmless idiots, but a monster with a soul is something real, too real and that's scary.
Yes, you NEED to keep watching...
Willow looks up..."Oh shit."
Yep.
People like to forget that earlier in this season, this was Spike and Buffy's dynamic. She would say no, he would tease her, push her, and she'd go with it. Spike just didn't know now, this time, that No meant no. It does NOT excuse what he did at all, it was horrible. Nor does it make Buffy accountable for what happened in any way. But this is why in more BDSM-like relationships they make sure to have things like safe words.
I haven't seen this episode in over 20 years. But when I saw the thumbnail I almost involuntarily said, "Your shirt..." It's definitely an episode we'll never forget.
James Marsters had to have therapy after doing that scene and now has it in his contract that he won't do it again. He underestimated how much it would affect him to try to put himself in the headspace of someone who would do that
James Marsters said he had to go to therapy after shooting this scene and steered clear of anything like that after. It’s a really tough watch, I can’t imagine having to get into character and act it.
This is a fantastic episode, the actors really pull you through a rollercoaster of emotions. I think the shock factor hits so much harder because all the worst things in this are real world threats. You get desensitised to magic danger watching this show and you even feel the lightness of warren’s fight but with SA & guns it suddenly becomes so real and so scary and so human.
You didn't show it in the YT edit, but this was the one and only episode Amber Benson is in the opening credits. Not sure if you caught that.
The attempted rape scene was mostly done out of frustration from the writers who wanted people to stop rooting for Spike. They tried making the audience remember that he's evil over and over again but they refused to acknowledge it, so they had him do something to Buffy that many would see as unforgivable. James didn't even want to do the scene but he was contractually obligated and he even needed therapy after. Apparently he had his contract updated so he'd never have to do a scene like that again.
shame alot of Spike fans try and justify it and say Buffy deserved it.
@@theprodigal Thankfully, I don't think I've ever seen this. (I don't doubt that people like that exist, just... not anywhere that I have to see/hear them.)
@@theprodigal
understanding how the scene came about (both in-universe and out-of-universe) is not the same as justifying it. i've never seen anyone try to justify what spike does.
@@theprodigal There is a huge difference between saying that Buffy deserved it (which literally no one has ever said) and realizing that this was cause and effect. Buffy kept giving Spike mixed signals because she herself didn't know what she wanted. She kept telling him no when she meant yes all throughout this season. So, the one time when she actually does mean no, Spike didn't take it seriously. This is just what happens when you bring a soulless demon into your life. Buffy would always tell Spike to get out of her life, only to then run to him with money in the next episode because she needs his help. Then when Spike thought that that earned him some respect, she's back to treating him like trash in the next episode until she needs him again. She literally kept saying "get away from me" while grabbing him and kissing him. Maybe a mentally stable man could have gotten a clue, but Spike is a soulless demon, and then everyone, including Buffy, is surprised that he would do this. Here's a tip - Do not invite soulless demons into your life! Is this hard? And no, this doesn't mean that Buffy deserved what Spike tried to do. It simply means that cause and effect doesn't care about what a person deserves or doesn't.
No spoilers but it seemed there was another purpose for this storyline which concludes in the next season. For him, when one hits rock bottom the only way left to go is up.
Tara's final line "Your Shirt" will alway get me.
I know you are ahead on Patreon, but I still want to send a virtual hug. These last few episodes of the season are rough.
When you said in the beginning how happy you were with the last episode and hoping it would be the same with this one I immediately was thinking - "Uh-oh..... brace yourself."
This haven't been mentioned yet but, James Marsters had to go to therapy because of that scene, for couple of months or so.
He started having nightmares and panic attacks. James Marsters is one of the nicest guys ever, no wonder it him hard.
- i know its a job, but i could have not play that scene, even if i was a professional (trained) actor, rape scene, nope
Yeah. He actually puts it in ALL his contracts now that he won't do a scene like that ever again.
@@xyex Indeed
"The last episode was one of my favorites"
Bet this one wont be
I'm so glad I'm mentally calm enough to watch you react to this episode. It's....a heavy one ugh.
they made buffy lose all her killer instinct and squeak/whimper over a lil bathroom wrestling match when she wrestled goddess and ancient demons for living and shrugs off getting punch through concrete walls on the daily.
Tara's my favorite character...
😢
She's the most wonderful and warm human in the whole series. We all need a Tara in our lives.
@@alanbeers4808 I could certainly use one in my life. I kinda had one in ground school... 😅 but that was 30 years ago. I have no idea what's with her today....
This is a roooooough episode. What a ride from here.
Did i stop in the middle of a smosh complilation video to watch this? Why yes, yes i did! Ive been WAITING for this episode! Here's where it all changes ❤ hugs for the trauma of it all
Dakara: "I'm done. I don't know if I can keep watching this."
...Oh but you will continue watching Dakara. Because:
1. You want to see what the hell Willow is going to do to next after what just happened to Tara.
2. You want to know if Buffy is going to be okay or if she dies for reals this time.
3. Even though this show brings you the happiest, fun times and the saddest, darkest times, in the end you love this show because of its characters.
4. Lastly, you've come this far. No way you're tapping out before the series finale. You're gonna finish it cuz you're awesome like that ❤.
You hang in there my friend. I know this sucks donkey balls but you know what they say: there's always a light at the end of the tunnel. And you will get there Dakara 💯. You tough it out and grind it 💪
Ugh even seeing cut-up bits of this episode makes me bawl my eyes out. Why did EVERYTHING bad have to happen in this episode? This one episode is the main reason I hate Season 6 so much. Season 5 was so perfect and this season was so relentlessly depressing. I KNOW that it’s a deliberate metaphor for real life depression but it’s just such a hard watch and this episode just tops it off with everything bad that could possibly happen all at once. I hate it. Tara my beloved. 🥺
Cue the comments saying 'im not justifying the bathroom scene but..........' honestly the worst thing this show has done has create a fan base of Spike fans who thinks its okay to blame Buffy for being seriously assaulted on her bathroom floor.
Love youuuuuuu💗💗💗💗💗💗💗
This entire season Spike & Buffy has always made me feel deeply uncomfortable. I grew up around a few people with mental health issues & my mind can be a bit of a carnival mirror at times, so the first time watching this season I understood why Buffy slept with Spike. The terrible moment when people feeling nothing except that stark detachment realize they can still feel something if it's bad enough, negative emotions. Buffy felt something when she & Spike had sex, it wasn't anything good, but it was still something. Their entire relationship was horrible to me, and this is the key thing here, many fans kept forgetting what Spike was, and instead of reminding people with a chat or something they instead kept writing the stories needed here over on Angel instead. To be fair, they were needed on Angel too, but on the Angel show think about just this season Dakara, how many times they showed that vampires cannot truly love? They can lust & obsess but whether it was the vampire couple who was part of Angelus' team in Season 3 episode 1 or Darla having her soul, and then sharing a soul, and admitting that she has never loved; you can't love, can't have a soul mate, without a soul. Love is giving as much as it's taking, it's creation & moments of purity. Vampires are parasitic demons, they feed, they take, they cannot give or create. Spike started fighting for the good side solely because he realized that he's allowed to hurt demons though he can't hurt people. So, stick with the Slayer, and get to indulge in sadism & violence. The character was charming leading people to feel betrayed & hurt, however Spike all the way back with Drusilla has never been able to understand love or the word no. The word no had no power in their relationship. Though, I have no idea how they were allowed to show as much as they did back in 2002. A fascinating thing not many people know about season six, aside from it exploring the darkness in all the characters, is that Joss Whedon would ask the writers of the show about their own darkness & what the worse thing they ever did was. It's really something to see the level of trust he built with the writers room at least. Someone else in the comments mentioned it but this story & Spike's lack of, well, humanity as born out of something a female writer did in college. Again, a lot of people have commented how difficult it was for James Marsters to shoot, I don't know anything about him needing therapy but fair, however James fully stands by the scene & he's said that's he's glad that they did it. That interview was for The Mary Sue if anyone wants to check it out, though not you Dakara, it has spoilers for next season. Lastly Tara, and Buffy, it's so strange yet terrifying that all the evil & demonic entities the team has faced & it's this human guy, just a sociopathic & psychopathic guy, who has done this to them. I'm sorry Dakara, this episode is hard for everybody. I hope you were able to detoxify. Ps, yeah, the male gender isn't shining here... but we can bring home food sometimes.
James Masters has commented a few times on this episode being his hardest to film, and to his recollection it came from
'a female writer, [who] had a situation in her life where she was and her boyfriend were breaking up and she decided if she just made love to him one more time, that they wouldn't break up. She ended up trying to force herself on him and decided to write about that. The thing is, if you flip it and make it a man forcing himself on a woman, I believe it becomes a whole different thing... I'm not really sure it expressed what the author was intending and on that score it was not successful.'
(I think it's generally accepted that it was Marti Noxon?)
But yeah, they wanted to remind the audience that Spike *is* evil.
But it's a cheap way to do it and negates the good things Spike did in Season Five.
Spike is a wild dog with a shock collar. He was trained not to do bad things by the chip but he never learned to like being good. The only good he ever did was for Buffy who he had an unhealthy obsession for. Without the chip working with Buffy, it was only sooner or later until he did something bad to her.
Angel has the same conversation with Cordelia about Harmony too. It doesn't matter how much Harmony likes Cordelia, she is still a soulless Vampire, and will eventually hurt her.
A undomesticated animals are feral and will eventually lash out because it's their instinct too.
@@Madbandit77It's not cheap at all. It's literally the only way things could have ended. He's been raping Buffy all season. Just because he was using her depression instead of force to do it doesn't change what it was.
Spike never "did good." Every instance he had the chance to go back to being 100% evil, he took. The closest he ever got to good was not giving up Dawn to Glory. But that was 3 parts his obsession with Buffy and 1 part not wanting the world to end (as he mentioned in Becoming pt 2). It wasn't because he was good.
@@xyex Buffy has been using Spike. All season. They are using each other. It's not rape. C'mon now
Thi bathroom scene is.
@@ninipookie No. It's rape. Buffy is not in a proper state of mind to consent, especially with Spike's manipulation and gas lightning. "You're all alone. I'm all you've got." He literally pulls her from her support system to reduce her ability to resist, because (subconsciously) he's aware she wouldn't be doing any of this if she was in her right mind.
Coerced consent isn't consent.
Dakrya Ultimate Edition
Tara's final scene was in Joss's mind one year earlier and he had the entire scene planned including the shirt line except it was outside the house. AR scene was Marti Noxon pitch (co showrunner that year) based on her own experience (she was Spike). DeKnight (episode writer) commented the AR scene took too much time in the editing bay. Too much fan drama about the scene (Marsters always over the top comments to please the fans are not helping to it). It was another loooong 10-12h day of filming at Martha Street (Buffy sets) and both JM and SMG did as a pro because there were dozens of crew members, and too many takes, and Mutant Enemy wanted a pro casting on set and not diva/weird typical Hollywood behaviour. So yep: showrunner Marti (doubt Joss was there that day because of Firefly pilot), director, DP and probably David Solomon made sure actors did the scene without any extra drama.
They way you rolled back your chair after seeing the blood splat on Willow then seeing Tara....wow.
Oh boy, here we go. After work grabbing some street tacos and running home to watch this ❤
Oh, we've all been there.
Don’t allow yourself to stew over this and put off watching the next episode… which has one of my all time favourite scenes in Buffy.
This is Buffy a show where nobody is truly happy for long.
I was dreading this 😥
This is one of those episodes where reactors are pissed because they loved Spike and after what happened they hate Spike and people threaten to stop watching . I can never comment on these things because I might spoil something. Let me just remind you, this is one of the BEST shows ever created. Watch till the end. 😅
Washboard abs, British accent, and that bad boy attitude that only they can tame. Spike was a disgusting, evil creature and this episode reinforced that. A lot of reactors didn't like that
This direction for Spike is not a thing means to hate him, it is the great development about his character and what happened next to him. Even during his horrible act, we can feel sorry for him because it shows his face his regrets and his feelings. But some people just watch the events and not the subtility of human being and characters development.
Even back in the day when this was airing there were a lot of fans that just wanted this to be Twlight before Twilight existed and retcon Spike and Buffy as an actual happy relationship. Honestly its good the writers didn't compromise, what sets Buffy apart and makes these parts of it work is the fact that both Angel and Spike's relationships with Buffy are portrayed as toxic in their own ways. Had the show tried to gloss over or pretend they weren't, the entire show would be lesser for it.
With Spike, it felt like character assassination and I was just too much in shock trying to process what he attempted.
I did, however, notice the way James played it when Buffy kicked him off. He looked confused and devastated, as if he came to realize what was going on.
The remnants/echoes of who William was is like dna seeped into the brain cells. William was an empath and a hopeless romantic, but his demon was corrupted by the deviant teachings from a damaged vampire girlfriend, who's twisted ideas of love and violence were taught to her by her creator, Angelus.
Dru liked mixing violence and torture with romance.
Spike and Buffy played that cat and mouse game, and I think to him, this was just her usual foreplay as in she would say no, they fight or he'd coax her on and then she's giving in.
This time she meant it and he didn't get the message.
James let you see the confusion on Spike's face, like "oh God! What did I do?"
I knew something was up when Willow and Tara was in a happy place and back together, however, I did not expect death.
When Willow's eyes turned red, you knew it was about to go down.
@@blackkatt777 Spike's literally fantasized about hurting Buffy while having sex with another woman he's also abused on screen. The logical character progression doesn't become "assassination" just because the actor playing said character is cute and charming.
Dawg I don't even know if I can watch this. I've been anticipating the drop of this video for weeks.
@T.elegram.DakaraJayne I mean I watched it I just meant like, emotionally I was hesitant to watch it. I knew I was gonna watch your heart break like mine did so many years ago.
If this is too much of a spoiler, or invitation to spoilers, let me know and I'll remove it ...
Question:
Which of these two developments is the worst / least justified in Buffy?
- Spike assaulting Buffy in the bathroom, or
- Tara being shot.
Not which is most PAINFUL -- because lots of sad, painful plot developments can be good for a show -- but which is the least NECESSARY. Or, which could be most easily replaced with something that's less traumatizing and long-term damaging to overall goodwill, but which does the job in terms of moving the story along?
They both make sense in the 'world', Spike is evil and Willow needed a kick to push the story forward. And nice as Tara was, she was surplus to the gang.
@@gordon861 By and large, I agree. At least until recently, I generally felt that these two events were justified, story-wise. But I am beginning to think that there might have been ways to get Spike and Buffy where they each needed to be and going the direction they needed to go without actually having Spike assault Buffy quite that way. I'm just thinking there might have been other options, and I wonder if they were considered.
@@apulrang Perhaps there might have been except the fans at the time seemed incapable of seeing Spike as anything other than the hot bad boy, they weren't seeing the signs.
Others have already commented that they feel that looking back all the earlier interactions between Buffy/Spike were also assaults as they involved coercion by Spike. I'm pretty sure that's not how it was read at the time. I would argue that it was abuse from both sides, but I saw this pre-MeTo so what do I know.
I think that to make art you need to poke at emotions and make people feel. To make great art you probably need to poke harder.
I think what stops these scenes from crossing the line to abuse-porn type stuff is that it isn't just brushed aside, there are consequences and it is revisited later.
But damn it's a hard watch.
I think people forget that Spike is a monster on a leash, his confliction is abnormal, it makes Spike abnormal. Although the scene itself is hard to watch, I always felt it was to remind us Vampire = evil. Spike even questions it later on not saying why did I do that but why DIDN'T I do it, Spike shouldn't feel remorse but he did, a vampire should relish in any form of pain they cause but he's not.
Spike curses the chip in his reflection scene for shackling his base instincts preventing him from being a monster but also says he can't be a man.
As for the rest of the episode, the point of this episode was pain in my opinion.
I hope after a few days you're feeling better, we all needed a breath the first time we watched it.
Buffy was also written by a few women, not just men.
When you think Joss Whedon can't fucking hurt you no more...BOOM! this is what he delivers
Season 6 doesn't let up.
Until the "yellow crayon" speech anyway...
It doesn’t excuse what Spike did but it’s important to note that the boundaries in his and Buffy’s sexual relationship were nebulous and easily crossed by both parties. He didn’t have a soul and wasn’t capable of reading the situation beyond his own desires and previous experiences. Buffy violated Spike’s consent when she was invisible and it had become a general pattern for one or the other to say something then immediately act against it.
Edit: NONE OF THE ABOVE IS A DEFENSE OF HIS ACTIONS. What he did was monstrous at both the human and demon levels.
Completely. Spike was seen by many as a good guy, light relief funny guy. We know he's a soulless murderer and rapist, it's entirely in his nature and he rarely if ever respects a "no". He certainly didn't during this series prior to this episode.
First Jenny, then Joyce, now Tara (and that's only BtVS).
Imagine being told after 1.5 seasons that you're finally being added to the opening credits, and then being told that your character is also being killed off.
Whedon enjoys eliminating fan-fav characters in shocking and disturbing ways.
Please remember that Spike doesn’t have a soul and doesn’t understand how messed up that was. Hang in there, it will all work out brilliantly
I've watched a lot of reactors react to this episode. I usually wait for it. But watching you gave me chills. I felt your pain... 😥
This episode is extremely hard. So hard to watch that I was pretty fine when watching game of thrones red wedding and stuff
Next episode makes up for it...
@@chanceneck8072 The next three make up for the whole season. Warren is so real and despiteful. Its not a pleasant watch but I do like what they went for this season
@@AnatoleVGC It's my favorite season after all....😅
@@chanceneck8072 mine is season 5 cause it has such a good climax vibe to it. Season six is the depression season, wich I appreciate but not my favourite. The finale is my second favourite though
@@AnatoleVGC Season 5 has my favorite episode, The Gift... 😅
This is the episode that makes me “Oh, honey” people I’ve never met. 😢
Don’t worry about feeling off in your reaction. Everyone is thrown by this episode. It just comes with the territory so your fans are expecting it.
really appreciate your honesty in your reactions!
Marsden hated that scene, he had future contract state he'd never do another like it. But I think its important. The show is aimed at young people, and seeing this, seeing where abusive and toxic relationships can lead is important. Also, spike is a monster, never ever forget that, no soul. The fact he can even have feelings, chip or not makes him remarkable, but he's still a demon in a human body.
It is interesting that this series distinguishes fantasy murder from real murder. We've seen many people we don't care about get killed by demons or supernatural means. But the two main cast members killed off die of real mundane causes: a brain tumor and a handgun. The Trio were characterized from the beginning as ineffectual nerds who were no threat. We find out that a single nerd with a gun in an instant of anger can not only kill multiple people, but destroy the lives of everyone who loves them.
Congrats on surviving one of the Darkest episodes of TV Ever, you'll forget a lot of episodes but you'll always remember this one it's a weight we all carry
Yeap, we've all been there.
I literally left the darts final for this reaction once the notification came up!
"Oh shit" yep
During the intial run, 15% of the fanbase disappeared after this episode.
I doubt fans are supposed to enjoy this episode, Dakara.
I don't blame them.
It’s the most difficult episode but BTVS never told us that it would be easy. I can tell you our Buffy group was emotionally devastated after Seeing Red. What kept us going was what The First Slayer told Buffy, your love is crafted by your pain. We all agreed that this pain was the worst and eventually this would lead to a better journey.
Tbh, they didn't miss much. The rest of the show isn't that great imo
@@samjohnson7869 good point. No not about the show about the fact that it's just your opinion. I really liked season 7, is it my favorite? No 5 and 3 still take that spot but opinions are like elbows, everyone's got em
@@arielcarmona6660 Thank you!!! I felt like saying something, but didn't want to seem to be stepping on samjohnson7869's toes about it. You wrote it without seeming to do that. So, thank you. My favorite to least favorites of the BtVS TV Show are:
1. Buffy S5
2. Buffy S2
3. Buffy S1/The Origin Comic (interchanchable w/S4)
4. Buffy S4 (interchangable w/S1)
5. Buffy S7 (sometimes interchangable w/S4 &/or S1)
6. Buffy S6
7. Buffy S3
Love your reactions Dakara, havn't watch Buffy since you were at S2, but saw this pop up and had to come here for the torment.
This episode isn't meant to be enjoyed. It's destroyed every fan who has ever watched it on some level.
You might want to keep watching 😉👍
The toxic part of the Buffy fandom forgives spike after doing this because they love him so much yet they can’t forgive Xander as a whole. 🙄🙄🙄
I can't. I can enjoy Spike's character before that, but the attempted rape permanently stained their relationship.
16:38 - Here's the thing. Everyone talks about the attempted SA in this episode. But it's not the first time. Spike has been doing it *all season.* Often to cheers from the audience. Nearly *every* encounter between him and Buffy started with her telling him *no,* and then ended with her being ashamed of, and disgusted with, herself.
Things only happened between them at all because he did exactly the same thing he did this episode, ignored her when she said no and manipulated her until she said yes. The only difference is, Buffy has recovered enough from her depression she had the strength to **keep saying no** this time.
17:47 - Burry Your Gays DOES NOT APPLY TO BUFFY. The trope is introducing a gay character and then immediately killing them, so you don't have to write a gay storyline. Tara's been on the show for 2.5 seasons. Whether she dies this episode or not, the trope isn't applicable.
I agree that bury your gays doesn't apply here for the reason articulated above. Additionally, others in the "Core Four" have lost their significant others so it's a recurring motif (Giles loses Jenny, Buffy loses Angel (even though he comes back), ...). Tara is a top 5 character for me so losing her sucks, but I also respect the show for being willing to do things like this and give the show real stakes (another clear example of this is Joyce). Best of all for this season is that even when they do "undercut" the stakes by bringing Buffy back, there's significant consequences to it as she is traumatized and depressed as a result. I think that's why I like S6 best; S5 is incredible but I hadn't seen anyone tackle character development like S6 before.
I've seen people say the previous coercion excuses his behaviour here because it's worked before 🤮
@@HorrorMovieSyllabus 6 is my least favorite. I love Buffy as a character too much to enjoy a season long depression arc.
@@sugardares 🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮🤮
I bring it up in discussions to show why he kept at it so long here - because he'd come to expect her to cave - but that by no means excuses it in any way. I can't say I'm surprised some would say that, though. There are a lot of Spuffy fans who actually _enjoy_ the S6 relationship as it is, toxicity and all, and so feel the need to defend it.
Tara is a great character but where to next? What was her role to be going forward? Just another witch and company for Willow?
She is surplus and the cast is already big, by removing her she becomes a source to push the others forward. It's brutal, but that's the show, if it was sanitized we wouldn't still be raving about it 20 years later, and new people wouldn't keep getting drawn in.
xander wasnt the only one who let spike be near dawn.
Easily hardest episode of TV I've ever seen, but what's crazy is the events of this episode really helps shape the rest of the series
If there ever was an episode where you don't need to apologise for being a 'moody cow', it's this one! It's a tough one 😧
Ngl, I was dreading this episode, because every reactor ends up hating Spike after this. And, saying this knowing you're already on S7, hating soulless Spike makes absolute sense. But I'm hoping it doesn't carry over to Ensouled Spike. He's not any more responsible for his soulless self than Angel is for Angelus, Angelus also being a known rapist btw when he doesn't have a soul, let's be honest.
Totally valid emotional response
Spike is not human. Spike doesn't have a soul. He and Buffy both ignored each other's consent before....
Stay with it, there are some amazing episodes coming up.
They all live in a world of violence. Fighting violence with violence leave you open to mistakes in judgement, and using violence in the wrong time, wrong place, leading to destruction of what you were trying to protect, and spiraling down into such a broken state that you can't carry on.
Buffy and Spike found comfort in violence, punching each other, smacking each other around was release. They obviously let each other hurt each other in lots of ways because it was cathartic, something they could feel was real. Buffy and Angel would never "play rough" because Buffy was barely ready for a boyfriend at all and wanted to experience love. With Spike she wanted to experience abandon, darkness, refuge from responsibility, a little taste of the poison to distract her from the trauma.
That's what Spike was doing, and of course only Buffy and Spike could possibly understand that they were doing it because it was wrong, because it hurt. But it was over, and she was actually in a weakened and vulnerable state, as well as not ready to deal with Spike or any more disgust with the whole thing. Sex was always on her terms with Spike, even when it was dangerous and ugly and had a mean streak to it it was her mean streak, not his. Also they got so worked up the area gets destroyed. So no it was bad, real bad, but that was the point -- all the crap in this episode was men forcing themselves on women in an effort to not feel their own self hatred. Like real life.
Warren is spiraling as well -- full homicidal maniac with a gun. Very unlike him in one way, totally like him in the other. We first met him when he was in college, and abandoned his robot girlfriend to die a slow death for a "real woman" , blows that, then he eventually kidnaps, mind controls, and murders her when she calls him out as a misogynist and a mind rapist. Him getting a pair of balls is too on the nose, a dirty joke.
I think the writers knew that the trio was another lame idea like Adam was, and wanted to juice the narrative in a very ugly set of power moves to scare the audience into feeling some regret for thinking everything was lighthearted and slightly slapstick.
This whole season has been about self-sabotage, ruining the good things in your life by running away from the bad things, letting them build up till they explode, like a random bullet to the chest.
Stay with it….hang in there.
Spike and Buffy's entire "relationship" had been Buffy saying no, Spike pushing more and more until she says ok. From his perspective, this was the same thing they were doing in the bathroom.
Without a soul he has no conscience to realize when he is in the wrong, which he was in this episode.
This is also why he is shocked and doesn't understand what went wrong afterwards, although he does realize it was his fault.
Oh fuck we're here...
So, did anyone notice that in that final scene Tara was wearing a blue sweater that looks not unlike the one Willow was looking for in The Body?
This is the episode that sent many of us to fanfiction, whether reading or writing. We wanted our W/T happy ending.
You know, I believe that every character has something from their creator. And you can say which part of Weadon Angelus has - give characters hope to crush it later.
RIP Tara, though I never really care about her, she still one of the kindest characters in Buffyverse.
At first, we all thought the “Whedon twist,” where a happy event would be followed by tragedy, was just cool writing.
Given what we know about Joss Whedon today, it’s clear that the guy literally gets off on people suffering.
@@arc7375 True.... maybe. I honestly don't really know and don't care if Weadon a good person or no. I was talking simply about his writing.
A lot of fans *hate* this episode, for obvious reasons.
For me (and as a SA survivor), I think it needs to be uncomfortable for a reason. It's to show the parallels between Spike, who is soulless and evil but a neutering chip, and Warren, a human being. Compare Spike at this point to Angelus, and what Angelus did to Dru and other girls. Compare that to what Warren was doing with Trina a few episodes back. Yes, it's uncomfortable and horrific, but unfortunately real life people do these things. And get away with it.
I also think the comment Spike made to Dawn is important. "Becauses big sis was treating me so well up to that point." Buffy was physically abusing Spike too, and it's the kind of "love" he's used to. Doesn't justify it, but does explain why he has a twisted view from his perspective. Hence why the, "why didnt i do it?" At the end, his chip doesnt work, and he would have done it 100 years ago without blinking.
But yeah, Joss has a way of getting people comfortable before a tragedy...
Dakara: "The last one was probably one of my favorites in a long time... I have high hopes for this one as well."
Me: "oh, gurl, I'm so sorry..."
Hugs...
On the bathroom scene: Spike is still evil. His love is still obsession. But at the same time, the Buffy/Spike relationship this whole season has been problematic, rife with violence mixed with heat and passion, full of consent being violated. What Buffy did while invisible - very wrong, even though Spike gave in and let it happen. Both Buffy and Spike were using each other. Buffy has said things to indicate it was over before, I believe - only to go back to it. It was a toxic situation.
Now, Buffy is serious about it ending, but Spike is still a soulless vampire. He doesn't understand that Buffy has changed, that this isnt "violence followed by sex as usual." Then he realizes she really means NO. He's crossed the line, and he belatedly understood that.
James Marsters truly, truly hated doing that scene. Never again.
Re: Tara's death. "It's always sudden." The hole in her shirt is right in front of her heart. It would take a miracle for her to be alive. 😭 Willow is going Dark - her anchor line has been cut, her soulmate appears to be dead, so quickly she didn't feel the pain. The line, "your shirt..." breaks me every time. What kept me watching was wanting to see Willow exact vengeance, because you just know she's got but one purpose now.
More hugs...
Unfortunately, misogyny has powerful negative consequences, so even if this episode is hard to watch, I think it was important to do. If you notice, the writers keep pointing out to the audience that Spike is evil, not a handsome boytoy as many in the fandom want. They didn't want him to become Buffy's love interest but the fandom demanded it, and so they had to be honest about his character and show the fans why he was never someone to trust. Having said that, this all sets Spike up on a very powerful path of redemption, which you'll probably enjoy in S7. As for Warren's shooting of Tara, again, I think we have to see the real effects of misogyny in the show to really understand how it can turn what seems like harmless geeks into dangerous monsters. In fact, this episode and this season basically predicted the future we're living in now, with women's rights being taken away in the U.S. and misogyny being promoted by powerful figures like Elon Musk.
Season 6 is not my favorite, but the 4-part finale - of which you've just watch the first installment - is the greatest finale of the series! PLEASE carry on! I promise you'll love it!
It's JUST the best TV Show ever though.
🤔This is going to come of "mean" but I hate how's the fans Needed this episode to know that Spike is fucked up when it comes to the romance😮 And frankly, the fans deserves to feel this down after watching this episode😮 Ya'll Were so happy and forgiving of anything of Spike actions just because he's handsome.😬
The moment i saw the title i eas like "....aaaand here we go"
Sone years ago, I read an interview with the guy who played Warren. He said that there's a thing that frequently happens where people will meet him or even just pass him on the street and absolutely LOATHE him. Most of the time, they don't know *why* - almost as if he reminds them of someone they hate, but they can't remember who - but it's there.