I did my advanced training with the IAM over the last year, and I passed my test (not a first) 3 weeks ago. Initially I was disconcerted by the emphasis on progress and I think that some observers pushed it way too much, but other observers were much more circumspect. On my test, the conditions were great, but I still sat at round 55 on the nationals and didn’t overtake at all (apart from the motorway portion of the test). When we got back for the debrief, the examiner asked my why I didn’t overtake (there were two opportunities where I could have squeezed in an overtake), I told him that I didn’t feel that it was worthwhile overtaking just to gain a few extra yards, or - with the other one, that I didn’t feel that it was safe for me.. he accepted that, and scored me a 2 on progress.. I’ve never been one for speed, I’m quite happy to show more restraint than desperation to eke out every inch of speed.. I undertook the training with the IAM to become a safer rider, not to become the next Valentino Rossi, I take my wife on the bike for leisurely rides and have no desire to kill her or myself. I could never get to grips with siting 1 second behind a car to get ready for an overtake - the risk factor seems too high IMO. The overall training by the IAM was top drawer though, I believe I’m a much safer rider now than before I undertook the course, it was absolutely money well spent!
@michaelggriffiths thank you for this comment, much appreciated to hear about your experience. With advanced training I think its important to remember that we are not training to be emergency response riders so the goal is indeed improvement of safety. But however fast we ride for whatever purpose, safety has to be the overriding factor. As we used to say, blue lights dont allow you to ride or drive dangerously or do the impossible, and if you crash you cause another problem and are no use to anyone. Any advanced rider who puts speed above safety is not, IMHO, an advanced rider. All the best.
Currently training with the local IAM group to become an Advanced Motorcyclist. I've had numerous Observers comment about lack of overtaking/progress in certain situations. Several aspects of advanced training have been difficult to master for me- riding a few mph below the limit should not be scope for improvement. Showing restraint is just as important in riding and keeping points off your licence
Many years ago, I was a “Gold Level” (ie advanced level) instructor with the “Star Rider” scheme run by the then Department of the Environment. Our bible was “Motorcycle Roadcraft”, which hasn’t changed that much in the intervening years. In teaching the system of motorcycle control, now called “IPSGA”, we would tell students that anyone riding at 35mph on a 60mph road would not impress us by making all the recommended observations, position adjustments etc. The point was that the system was meant to be used at normal road speeds, so we would expect to see them “make progress”, at the same time putting the system principles into operation. Wind forward 30+ years, I come back to biking after a long gap and enrol in an advanced training course. I realise, to my dismay, that “making progress” now seems to mean “go as fast as you legally can, and make sure to take every possible overtaking opportunity”. Not what I have ever understood to be the intended message. So thank you for your video, insightful as always!
I think you’ve summed things up brilliantly in this video about what advanced trading should be about, and the sometimes misplaced emphasis that can be applied to speed and progress!! 👍
I passed the IAM test 2 years ago having started as a very inexperienced and nervous rider. The observers were clear to a man, making progress comes from applying the system and not an end in itself. I knew that I wanted to be a confident rider in control. That aspect often gets missed. Sitting in traffic under the control of drivers ahead and behind is not a good place to be and using the skills, techniques and system that I have been taught allows me to make progress and control my bit of the road. It's definitely worked well for me however I have now seen a few associates whose expectation of advanced riding is very different and is wholly focused on their own interpretation of safety coupled with the fact that RoSPA and IAM are safety charities. They will say things like it's a limit, not a target and I'm not in any hurry, I'm riding for pleasure. I suspect that many of those riders never bridge the gap of understanding that safety comes from being in control and having a broad margin to work with when they encounter hazards on the road.
Some very good observations here. I wouldn't want to be pushed beyond what I was comfortable with and wouldn't be sticking with an instructor who pressurised me. Good to see you out on the new bike. Ride safe.
Making good and sensible progress is not necessarily being able to ride at the NSL anywhere. This is proved by say filtering which should be safe but slowly done and that's nothing like at the NSL. Its about going forward and not necessarily being forced to stop. Safety is the key and the major consideration to everything we do on the roads and everything else, including the making of progress takes a back seat to that. As a police officer on normal patrol duties I would not take a major road at the speed limit unless all other traffic was doing that speed and I would be holding up traffic if i was doing say 55 mph. But if the other traffic is doing that 55 mph then I would be quite happy to do just that speed. Without any need to overtake. Many a video I see of advanced riders doing the NSL on our country roads and they are always catching up with all other drivers doing less and so they end up with endless and to my mind with overtakes that would not be necessary and so less dangerous if they were to slow slightly and maintain road speed making good progress but holding back. The first rule of overtake is asking oneself is there a NEED to overtake. A police officer going somewhere where he is needed would say yes and commit to overtakes but we as civilians in many instances don't have that NEED too and therefore it begs the question, why should we we when we are making as much progress as others have to put ourselves and lets face it, others at risk on each and every overtake. Who is to say that we can all ride at the NSL round bends on country roads with safety all the time. One mans meat is another mans poison and to try and take bends at a higher speed is something we civilians should not be required to do. I have seen many a video of so called advanced riders taking bends at speeds and its obvious that they don't have the safe stopping distances in mind at all. I have followed so called advanced riders and shivered at the speed in which some take blind bends or used inappropriate speeds and gotten away with it. Even some police forces now recognise that safety outdoes the making of faster progress all the time and one should not be forced or coersed into making progress faster than one would want to. Its all designed as said on what we now call Police Roadcraft which is a watered down version of the police drivers Training Manual. otherwise known as The BIBLE. It was in 1937 primarily designed to save police officer lives. They only started motorised patrols in 1931 and many officers were killed and injured at the beginning so it was decided that they needed some form of training. Keeping police officers safe on our roads in all circumstance. Many of which a normal civilian would be exposed to but also at driving or riding skills at speeds and under certain circumstances that a civilian would not find or should not find themselves in at all. The making of fast progress is a bye product of the historic need for police officers to sometimes exceed the now speed limits [ there were no speed limits until the mid 60's when they were first introduced for country roads ] and as such with the modern speed limits as they now are there sees to be no need to feel the need to travel at higher speed, understanding that all training bodies and safety organisations do agree that the speed limit is not a target to be reached but it appears that does not apply to advanced rider training. Thinks about it as you will and decide for yourselves.
This is a very interesting topic 👍 it is nice to see everyone point of view in the same situation! Everybody should ride at their own pace and shouldn't feel pressurised by others to do otherwise 👍 Be aware and ride safe, that is the difference between being dead or alive! Motorbikes are fun but aren't toys, handle them in the wrong way and you will get burned very badly! Cool video, thank you 👍
Wish more people would do adv rider course. Did mine 10 years since and although I was a very experienced rider and thought I was pretty handy, I still picked up so many things. On the progress thing..... I am sometimes a bit lazy and dont take all the opportunities I should/could, it can depend on my mood and the scenery !! .... sometimes if you are on a great road with beautiful surroundings its nice to back off and take things in a bit. Part of the attraction of bikes for me. So making progress can be a bit subjective at times. Of course, there are times when its necessary for safety. I think its making the determination when its most suitable and acting accordingly, in some situations its best to clear the area promptly and forget the nice scenery ! Think your video was just about spot on. The adv riders I cant fathom are those that are genuinely nervous of wet weather riding which I find really strange if you have done the full IAM or RoSPA..... !! Safe riding folks 👍
Another informative and well presented video, thanks. If I may add something though - making progress is not all about speed, it could be filtering safety though traffic, choosing the best lane of traffic in queues, getting up to the safe/legal speed quickly, or not dithering at T junctions. Just “getting on with it” will probably get you there quicker than riding faster 😀
Good advice and information as always. I've learned so much since first embarking on advanced rider training years ago. The system teaches a completely new way of riding safer in general. It becomes your way of riding at all times and you don't have to think about it. It's of real benefit to all road users. I just wished it was a requirement for all riders and drivers.
I did Bike Safe some years back, after a 20 year gap in riding. Excellent day out. A couple of years later I did my IAM Advanced Rider course (and passed). My examiner was an ex-Class One Police Motorcyclist. Firm but fair. My training up to the test was truly excellent. I now use most of the techniques without thinking about them.
Interesting to hear your thoughts. I tend to agree with much said here. Ironically...best progress often achieved by good planning over & above ultimate legal pace. Thanks
Currently on the IAM course (ELAM Branch are excellent) and always look out for your videos. You have helped me greatly. Many thanks for your knowledge Sir.
Another great informative video explained very well and answered many all of my queries so thank you. I always give a reason for my actions although being picked up for doing 57 in a 60 for me is a bit harsh, especially being o a Goldwing which is nearly 1/2 a ton with me on it. My last observed ride a week ago by my mentor said I am test ready which is nice to hear. For me advance training is a must and should be a legal requirement within 3 months of passing your test. That safety bubble is so important and understanding IPSGA & TUG. I read in the Evening Standard today over 1000 motorcyclists in london are killed or seriously injured most of them are L plate scooter riders. A days course doesn’t prepare a 17 year old to ride safely on the roads. It looks like laws could be changed at last. My son is 23 and did his CBT and didn’t have a clue luckily enough he has now passed his test and has done bike Fire Bike road and Fire Bike slow manoeuvre courses which has brought his standard of riding along no end. Unfortunately the Bike Safe and Fire Bike course only seem to have 40 year old and over attending when should be young riders as well as they are higher risk. It seems being as safe as possible and wanting to learn mentality comes with age. All the best Matt 👍🏻
Excellent video. I have completed 10 observed rides now feel much more confident in my riding (I am 60 and have passed my test in April 2022). However, I am thinking of taking a break and embedding these lessons as I lack the experience of many. I can make good progress and find this invaluable especially in urban settings, but I don’t feel the need to do 60 on country roads although I don’t lack the confidence to do so. I was pushed to overtaking on occasions but that is my lack of experience so I know I must keep pushing myself. The main reason for taking a rest is that the scheme I was on was aiming for a certificate and this was taking away some of the enjoyment in riding, but that’s a personal thing (I’ve done too many exams in my life!). Cars gaining is frequent occurrence approach speed limit increases; annoyingly many drivers seem to think they need to accelerate when they ‘see’ the sign, not when they pass it. 😊
I've done the Roadsmart training and am currently an Observer. My take is the coaching provides a rider with the tools to be able to 'make progress'. You do not need to 'get an overtake in' to pass the Roadsmart test, although you would be 'marked down' for missing a golden opportunity to overtake. If your vision is up and your observation is good, making progress is easy.
Yep. Good observation makes overtakes easy and safe because you know they're on way before you execute the move. Also you know when it's not on and take appropriate action to ensure you're in the best possible position for your safety. Having the confidence to know when it's good and when it isn't is critical in my mind and the key to that is good observation. That's why the information stage runs right through IPSGA.
Great video Phil 👍 and if anyone in southeast Kent is looking to do courses I can highly recommend Invicta motorcycle training. Teachers are amazing and very professional.
i am an advanced rider,and on the course i took IAM 3 people who had been riding for over 60 years between them dropped out because of this ,speed speed progress , the instructor said well its how the police ride and are trained , the guy said thats fine on a bike with all his lights and sirens most drives keep out of the way , very different for a normal rider ,i took that on board ,but again great video thank you
I was researching advanced rider training options and found one of your videos which had a link to this one. Very informative and certainly makes sense (I have subscribed to your channel now). It's what I would expect from advanced riding - acquiring skills, experience and confidence and by using these, "making progress" becomes almost automatic as you significantly reduce (or remove) hesitancy and complacency. There is a local IAM group but I can also do DVSA training through a local riding school. Not sure which is best for me at the moment - they both have their merits. I'd be interested if anyone has tried both and can compare them.
Just booked my cbt 😮😮 Been riding for the last 10 years by only watching TH-cam but finally I booked my cbt yesterday. You don't know me but wish me luck 😂😅
Having taken a couple of courses, the term "Progress" did seem a bit counter-intuitive outside of the emergency services, however I found the experience useful as it increases your processing speed/decision making which is useful in all situations, even if you just want a pootle. I started with an observed ride on the Bikesafe scheme, which was very useful having constructive critique of your riding ability.
To be honest when i done my direct access training 2yr ago. They had two trainers. One was so pushy on this subject. Always in my ear everytime you pulled away from junctions roundabouts etc regardless of the situation or what i did.
There seems to be an emphasis on the reasons why some riders are going slower than others. Many is the time I have watched advanced videos and the author is riding at the NSL ie 60 mph. on a country road. Nothing wrong with that in itself. However by doing so they invariably end up behind other vehicles that are not doing that speed but maybe just below it. Then I see loads of following closely for any opportunity to overtake being made and it appears that one must adhere adhere to a maximum speed obtainable at all costs and thus if that is so then bikers are putting themselves at an increased risk by continually overtaking everything that apparently holds them up. Overtake are the bane of motorcyclists but unfortunately stats show that if done wrong they are responsible for many a death or serious injury to bikers or others.. So my argument is that if on a run out without any need to speed why not use ones brain cells, watch what is happening and forget about using speed to make greater progress as its not specifically required. By being sensible and saying no I am not going to overtake then one is making that decision for a reason and its not because the the examiner or others feel that one is just being lazy or inattentive or incapable at all. I was once marked down for not overtaking on an assessment ride.. However after the assessor took the lead he did not overtake either as the road circumstances were such that it would have been extremely difficult or dangerous to do so. Plus my bike was far less powerful than his being only a single pot and he had more than twice my BHP and four cylinders between his legs. I think his brain was there also.
IAM observer here In you book it says safety at all times. Progress can be made in many ways ie filtering good clean overtakes and straight lining Stick to the law always.
Unfortunately many of those manoeuvres you mentioned if done wrong or wrongly taught or done inappropriately can easily lead one into great danger and whilst I believe that the police and emergency services could and should maybe use those practises as and when required to do so I don't ultimately believe that they were intended to be used by the general public and thus they should not be taught at any level to civilians. If you include car drivers can you imagine the state of our roads if all drivers and riders could wrong side when and where they thought they could do.? There would be mayhem on our country roads. It's bad enough with the dangerous training given on overtakes, the way we did and still do and of making progress. Both of which cause more deaths and serious injuries than any other causes on our roads today. .
Interesting video. Thanks. I have a question: on these advanced rider courses, can you temporarily exceed the speed limit in order to overtake and then revert to the limit....or should you never exceed the.limit under any circumstances? I'm assuming the latter but I wanted to check. Thanks.
You are not encouraged to speed. If u speed when overtaking, u risk the penalty(and a fail) That said, safety is of a higher concern, and if u have committed to an overtake, then a little excess over the limit may be the safest option........ excess speed is obviously discouragedd. If u need to break the speed limit in order to consider the overtake, then u shouldn't!
Is there a minimum power to weight ratio bike needed for the advanced course? I’m just shortlisting candidates for my first big bike and want to do an advanced course to keep updating my skills
Just have enough power on tap to commit to safe overtakes maxed out at 70 mph. and climb hills without too much power and speed loss. ie slowing on a motorway hill to 40 mph? to be able to maintain the legal speed limits on a motorway or any other road that they chose to use.
Thank you for your question. All I have seen as a requirement for advanced training is a bike capable of achieving and maintaining the National Speed Limit. This would seem a sensible requirement to enable all aspects of training, although in fairness some bikes are easier to ride than others, especially at low speeds. I wish you well with your bike choice and further training.
Interesting video, but "opportunity for an overtake" still sounds like you cant just enjoy the ride and you have to get somewhere as quickly as possible, albeit safely. This is what has put me off IAM/RoSPA as i want to be safer/more confident, but have no interest in overtaking, particularly when on a classic bike.
thanks for your comments. I do hear what you say, and I i have heard often about why IAM etc are off putting. When we train to an enhanced/advanced level, the overtaking process has to be present, as a competent rider needs to be able to do it safely. So as an instructor, I want to see that the rider has the skill and competency to do it for when it may be necessary. However, it isnt the be all and end all and this is where the Enhanced rider scheme can be useful. As long as we have the knowledge and the skill to overtake, it doesnt have to be the preoccupation. And on classic bike i can understand the desire to enjoy the ride. So if you would like extra training, dont be put off, but maybe a school or the ERS scheme may be better for you than IAM ROSPA etc. All the best
@@MotorcyclePWR I like that you say overtaking when 'necessary'. Its the first rule of any overtake and on page one of Overtaking in Roadcraft. Many riders get mistaken with the NEED to overtake and just WANT to or believe that they should and that puts unnecessary pressure on them to commit to one or more of them or indeed all of the time. Perhaps when following any vehicle and giving the safe stopping distances they should consider the consequences more and stay back until it becomes NECESSARY which in many case means NOT TO AT ALL . After all a police officer on normal patrol duties doesn't go haring around like a lunatic. He usually sticks to and adopts the speeds of other vehicles, follows as required and keeps an eye out of offenders etc. He basically will only overtake if he deems it NECESSARY for his job so we should all do the same. As we are not in his job we would not feel it necessary to overtake at every opportunity that arises. Making everything into an overtake increasing our risk and the risk to others exponentially. Then by reducing the numbers of overtakes required the roads would be a safer place as too many overtakes lead to more accidents deaths and injuries as shown on police stats every year. Perhaps they should be banned and riders will basically have to maintain the status quo when it could just be following the speed of traffic around them. We are not police officers and should not be trained to make overtakes as they are at times required to do so and only when it is NECESSARY to do so. It would be far safer for us and all other road users for unnecessary overtakes not to be required to commit to at all.
You need to understand what the opportunity for an overtake is first and foremost so that you recognise when to overtake safely, you don’t have to over take at every opportunity, but you need to recognise the correct opportunity should you wish to make an overtake that’s all
My only issue with riders uncomfortable to make progress, as its called, is what their motivation for advanced training is. If you genuinely think the pace you ride is safe, then why seek an opinion on it. Of course as your title states, advanced riding is not just about speed, but I do think riders sign up for it, without a clear understanding of what they hope to gain from it.
Yes possibly many do. Some just want a "professional" set of eyes on their riding and some are aware they lack confidence in some areas. Thats why i like flexible courses to suit the individual, hopefully they come away with something useful they didnt have before. All the best
The speed limit is just that a limit,not a target! Observation and knowing what to do in the event a situation,reading that situation as early as possible leads to safe riding IMHO. EDIT:- just to add,I'm absolutely sick and fed up with tailgaters when I'm riding or driving at the speed limit,these people are 90+% young women!
I was tolled when going for full licence to drive faster only once and i felt like he was saying that because thats what he was taught. But i was taught motorcycles should move through traffic and i agree. Filter through for safety and space. Though trying to tell my girlfriend this when she pillion is apparently hard to understand. She dose not like filtering at all though..the speed limits plenty fast enough for her and like they say. Its what you do with it that counts
I’ve just written an article on this subject. Safety is paramount. Restraint holds priority. Riding to the limit where safe shouldn’t be challenging. If restraint is due it should be shown. I’m an IAM examiner. If someone straight lines a roundabout having checked it’s safe to do so they would earn praise. So I disagree with that comment. Nice bike. I have one 🙂
Thank you for your comment, much appreciated. I agree with all you say, not sure if and what comment you disagree with re straight lining roundabouts but I also concur, if it’s safe and planned then of course! All the best, ride safe
@sanemancured thank you, I hope I didn’t create that impression, apologies if I did, straight lining would be frowned upon at test standard and a likely fail, but post test/IAM etc indeed as you say praise if safe. All the best
20mph zone keep to 20mph Get Overtaken I can not speed up I be breaking the Speed limit Keep what bike says if google maps says 14mph bike says 20mph What do i do go 3mph more keep to the bike speed Dash board
Best to keep to the speed limited by your speedometer reading and that means if riding at 30mph one might be only doing 27/8mph but you will not be done for speeding. Any time you start to add on for so called discrepancies then you run the risk of exceeding the speed limit and putting yourself forward for a possible prosecution. If we all drove or rode to our speedometer readings the world and our roads would be a safer place.
@@LiamE69 Many of the 20mph limits around schools are just a recommendation and therefore one chooses to obey them or not at ones peril if something untoward happens as result of riding at a higher speed. However if the 20 mph limit is within a red circle it is a mandatory sign and so it MUST BE OBEYED .....LAWFULLY..
I did my advanced training with the IAM over the last year, and I passed my test (not a first) 3 weeks ago. Initially I was disconcerted by the emphasis on progress and I think that some observers pushed it way too much, but other observers were much more circumspect.
On my test, the conditions were great, but I still sat at round 55 on the nationals and didn’t overtake at all (apart from the motorway portion of the test).
When we got back for the debrief, the examiner asked my why I didn’t overtake (there were two opportunities where I could have squeezed in an overtake), I told him that I didn’t feel that it was worthwhile overtaking just to gain a few extra yards, or - with the other one, that I didn’t feel that it was safe for me.. he accepted that, and scored me a 2 on progress..
I’ve never been one for speed, I’m quite happy to show more restraint than desperation to eke out every inch of speed..
I undertook the training with the IAM to become a safer rider, not to become the next Valentino Rossi, I take my wife on the bike for leisurely rides and have no desire to kill her or myself.
I could never get to grips with siting 1 second behind a car to get ready for an overtake - the risk factor seems too high IMO.
The overall training by the IAM was top drawer though, I believe I’m a much safer rider now than before I undertook the course, it was absolutely money well spent!
@michaelggriffiths thank you for this comment, much appreciated to hear about your experience.
With advanced training I think its important to remember that we are not training to be emergency response riders so the goal is indeed improvement of safety.
But however fast we ride for whatever purpose, safety has to be the overriding factor.
As we used to say, blue lights dont allow you to ride or drive dangerously or do the impossible, and if you crash you cause another problem and are no use to anyone.
Any advanced rider who puts speed above safety is not, IMHO, an advanced rider. All the best.
Currently training with the local IAM group to become an Advanced Motorcyclist. I've had numerous Observers comment about lack of overtaking/progress in certain situations. Several aspects of advanced training have been difficult to master for me- riding a few mph below the limit should not be scope for improvement. Showing restraint is just as important in riding and keeping points off your licence
@mrdygga6 one thing IAM advanced is not about speeding in fact it's a fail if you get your speed wrong especially on overtaking....
Many years ago, I was a “Gold Level” (ie advanced level) instructor with the “Star Rider” scheme run by the then Department of the Environment. Our bible was “Motorcycle Roadcraft”, which hasn’t changed that much in the intervening years.
In teaching the system of motorcycle control, now called “IPSGA”, we would tell students that anyone riding at 35mph on a 60mph road would not impress us by making all the recommended observations, position adjustments etc. The point was that the system was meant to be used at normal road speeds, so we would expect to see them “make progress”, at the same time putting the system principles into operation.
Wind forward 30+ years, I come back to biking after a long gap and enrol in an advanced training course. I realise, to my dismay, that “making progress” now seems to mean “go as fast as you legally can, and make sure to take every possible overtaking opportunity”. Not what I have ever understood to be the intended message.
So thank you for your video, insightful as always!
Thanks for another brilliant video full of good information and comments, I totally agree with you on that one. Robbie
I think you’ve summed things up brilliantly in this video about what advanced trading should be about, and the sometimes misplaced emphasis that can be applied to speed and progress!! 👍
I passed the IAM test 2 years ago having started as a very inexperienced and nervous rider. The observers were clear to a man, making progress comes from applying the system and not an end in itself. I knew that I wanted to be a confident rider in control. That aspect often gets missed. Sitting in traffic under the control of drivers ahead and behind is not a good place to be and using the skills, techniques and system that I have been taught allows me to make progress and control my bit of the road. It's definitely worked well for me however I have now seen a few associates whose expectation of advanced riding is very different and is wholly focused on their own interpretation of safety coupled with the fact that RoSPA and IAM are safety charities. They will say things like it's a limit, not a target and I'm not in any hurry, I'm riding for pleasure. I suspect that many of those riders never bridge the gap of understanding that safety comes from being in control and having a broad margin to work with when they encounter hazards on the road.
Some very good observations here. I wouldn't want to be pushed beyond what I was comfortable with and wouldn't be sticking with an instructor who pressurised me. Good to see you out on the new bike. Ride safe.
Making good and sensible progress is not necessarily being able to ride at the NSL anywhere. This is proved by say filtering which should be safe but slowly done and that's nothing like at the NSL. Its about going forward and not necessarily being forced to stop. Safety is the key and the major consideration to everything we do on the roads and everything else, including the making of progress takes a back seat to that. As a police officer on normal patrol duties I would not take a major road at the speed limit unless all other traffic was doing that speed and I would be holding up traffic if i was doing say 55 mph. But if the other traffic is doing that 55 mph then I would be quite happy to do just that speed. Without any need to overtake. Many a video I see of advanced riders doing the NSL on our country roads and they are always catching up with all other drivers doing less and so they end up with endless and to my mind with overtakes that would not be necessary and so less dangerous if they were to slow slightly and maintain road speed making good progress but holding back.
The first rule of overtake is asking oneself is there a NEED to overtake. A police officer going somewhere where he is needed would say yes and commit to overtakes but we as civilians in many instances don't have that NEED too and therefore it begs the question, why should we we when we are making as much progress as others have to put ourselves and lets face it, others at risk on each and every overtake.
Who is to say that we can all ride at the NSL round bends on country roads with safety all the time. One mans meat is another mans poison and to try and take bends at a higher speed is something we civilians should not be required to do. I have seen many a video of so called advanced riders taking bends at speeds and its obvious that they don't have the safe stopping distances in mind at all. I have followed so called advanced riders and shivered at the speed in which some take blind bends or used inappropriate speeds and gotten away with it. Even some police forces now recognise that safety outdoes the making of faster progress all the time and one should not be forced or coersed into making progress faster than one would want to.
Its all designed as said on what we now call Police Roadcraft which is a watered down version of the police drivers Training Manual. otherwise known as The BIBLE. It was in 1937 primarily designed to save police officer lives. They only started motorised patrols in 1931 and many officers were killed and injured at the beginning so it was decided that they needed some form of training. Keeping police officers safe on our roads in all circumstance. Many of which a normal civilian would be exposed to but also at driving or riding skills at speeds and under certain circumstances that a civilian would not find or should not find themselves in at all.
The making of fast progress is a bye product of the historic need for police officers to sometimes exceed the now speed limits [ there were no speed limits until the mid 60's when they were first introduced for country roads ] and as such with the modern speed limits as they now are there sees to be no need to feel the need to travel at higher speed, understanding that all training bodies and safety organisations do agree that the speed limit is not a target to be reached but it appears that does not apply to advanced rider training.
Thinks about it as you will and decide for yourselves.
Thanks for another very informative video.
Thank you for your contribution, much appreciated.
This is a very interesting topic 👍 it is nice to see everyone point of view in the same situation! Everybody should ride at their own pace and shouldn't feel pressurised by others to do otherwise 👍 Be aware and ride safe, that is the difference between being dead or alive! Motorbikes are fun but aren't toys, handle them in the wrong way and you will get burned very badly! Cool video, thank you 👍
Wish more people would do adv rider course. Did mine 10 years since and although I was a very experienced rider and thought I was pretty handy, I still picked up so many things. On the progress thing..... I am sometimes a bit lazy and dont take all the opportunities I should/could, it can depend on my mood and the scenery !! .... sometimes if you are on a great road with beautiful surroundings its nice to back off and take things in a bit. Part of the attraction of bikes for me. So making progress can be a bit subjective at times. Of course, there are times when its necessary for safety. I think its making the determination when its most suitable and acting accordingly, in some situations its best to clear the area promptly and forget the nice scenery ! Think your video was just about spot on. The adv riders I cant fathom are those that are genuinely nervous of wet weather riding which I find really strange if you have done the full IAM or RoSPA..... !! Safe riding folks 👍
Thank you.
Another informative and well presented video, thanks. If I may add something though - making progress is not all about speed, it could be filtering safety though traffic, choosing the best lane of traffic in queues, getting up to the safe/legal speed quickly, or not dithering at T junctions. Just “getting on with it” will probably get you there quicker than riding faster 😀
Thanks!
Good advice and information as always. I've learned so much since first embarking on advanced rider training years ago. The system teaches a completely new way of riding safer in general. It becomes your way of riding at all times and you don't have to think about it. It's of real benefit to all road users. I just wished it was a requirement for all riders and drivers.
I did Bike Safe some years back, after a 20 year gap in riding. Excellent day out. A couple of years later I did my IAM Advanced Rider course (and passed). My examiner was an ex-Class One Police Motorcyclist. Firm but fair. My training up to the test was truly excellent. I now use most of the techniques without thinking about them.
Interesting to hear your thoughts. I tend to agree with much said here.
Ironically...best progress often achieved by good planning over & above ultimate legal pace.
Thanks
Excellent
Currently on the IAM course (ELAM Branch are excellent) and always look out for your videos. You have helped me greatly. Many thanks for your knowledge Sir.
Thank you for your comments, and big thank you for your donation. Very much appreciated.
Wishing you well with your advanced, all the best
Another great informative video explained very well and answered many all of my queries so thank you.
I always give a reason for my actions although being picked up for doing 57 in a 60 for me is a bit harsh, especially being o a Goldwing which is nearly 1/2 a ton with me on it. My last observed ride a week ago by my mentor said I am test ready which is nice to hear.
For me advance training is a must and should be a legal requirement within 3 months of passing your test. That safety bubble is so important and understanding IPSGA & TUG.
I read in the Evening Standard today over 1000 motorcyclists in london are killed or seriously injured most of them are L plate scooter riders. A days course doesn’t prepare a 17 year old to ride safely on the roads. It looks like laws could be changed at last. My son is 23 and did his CBT and didn’t have a clue luckily enough he has now passed his test and has done bike Fire Bike road and Fire Bike slow manoeuvre courses which has brought his standard of riding along no end. Unfortunately the Bike Safe and Fire Bike course only seem to have 40 year old and over attending when should be young riders as well as they are higher risk. It seems being as safe as possible and wanting to learn mentality comes with age. All the best Matt 👍🏻
Excellent video. I have completed 10 observed rides now feel much more confident in my riding (I am 60 and have passed my test in April 2022). However, I am thinking of taking a break and embedding these lessons as I lack the experience of many.
I can make good progress and find this invaluable especially in urban settings, but I don’t feel the need to do 60 on country roads although I don’t lack the confidence to do so. I was pushed to overtaking on occasions but that is my lack of experience so I know I must keep pushing myself.
The main reason for taking a rest is that the scheme I was on was aiming for a certificate and this was taking away some of the enjoyment in riding, but that’s a personal thing (I’ve done too many exams in my life!).
Cars gaining is frequent occurrence approach speed limit increases; annoyingly many drivers seem to think they need to accelerate when they ‘see’ the sign, not when they pass it. 😊
I've done the Roadsmart training and am currently an Observer. My take is the coaching provides a rider with the tools to be able to 'make progress'. You do not need to 'get an overtake in' to pass the Roadsmart test, although you would be 'marked down' for missing a golden opportunity to overtake. If your vision is up and your observation is good, making progress is easy.
Yep. Good observation makes overtakes easy and safe because you know they're on way before you execute the move. Also you know when it's not on and take appropriate action to ensure you're in the best possible position for your safety. Having the confidence to know when it's good and when it isn't is critical in my mind and the key to that is good observation. That's why the information stage runs right through IPSGA.
Thanks
many thanks for your contribution, much appreciated. All the best
Great video Phil 👍 and if anyone in southeast Kent is looking to do courses I can highly recommend Invicta motorcycle training. Teachers are amazing and very professional.
Thanks Nick, much appreciated. See you soon
i am an advanced rider,and on the course i took IAM
3 people who had been riding for over 60 years between them dropped out because of this ,speed speed progress , the instructor said well its how the police ride and are trained , the guy said thats fine on a bike with all his lights and sirens most drives keep out of the way , very different for a normal rider ,i took that on board ,but again great video thank you
I was researching advanced rider training options and found one of your videos which had a link to this one. Very informative and certainly makes sense (I have subscribed to your channel now). It's what I would expect from advanced riding - acquiring skills, experience and confidence and by using these, "making progress" becomes almost automatic as you significantly reduce (or remove) hesitancy and complacency. There is a local IAM group but I can also do DVSA training through a local riding school. Not sure which is best for me at the moment - they both have their merits. I'd be interested if anyone has tried both and can compare them.
A old men once said to me, you're not going to make much progress when you're dead..😅
Just booked my cbt 😮😮
Been riding for the last 10 years by only watching TH-cam but finally I booked my cbt yesterday.
You don't know me but wish me luck 😂😅
i hope your cbt goes well. enjoy the training, all the best
Having taken a couple of courses, the term "Progress" did seem a bit counter-intuitive outside of the emergency services, however I found the experience useful as it increases your processing speed/decision making which is useful in all situations, even if you just want a pootle. I started with an observed ride on the Bikesafe scheme, which was very useful having constructive critique of your riding ability.
To be honest when i done my direct access training 2yr ago. They had two trainers. One was so pushy on this subject. Always in my ear everytime you pulled away from junctions roundabouts etc regardless of the situation or what i did.
There seems to be an emphasis on the reasons why some riders are going slower than others. Many is the time I have watched advanced videos and the author is riding at the NSL ie 60 mph. on a country road. Nothing wrong with that in itself. However by doing so they invariably end up behind other vehicles that are not doing that speed but maybe just below it.
Then I see loads of following closely for any opportunity to overtake being made and it appears that one must adhere adhere to a maximum speed obtainable at all costs and thus if that is so then bikers are putting themselves at an increased risk by continually overtaking everything that apparently holds them up.
Overtake are the bane of motorcyclists but unfortunately stats show that if done wrong they are responsible for many a death or serious injury to bikers or others.. So my argument is that if on a run out without any need to speed why not use ones brain cells, watch what is happening and forget about using speed to make greater progress as its not specifically required.
By being sensible and saying no I am not going to overtake then one is making that decision for a reason and its not because the the examiner or others feel that one is just being lazy or inattentive or incapable at all.
I was once marked down for not overtaking on an assessment ride.. However after the assessor took the lead he did not overtake either as the road circumstances were such that it would have been extremely difficult or dangerous to do so. Plus my bike was far less powerful than his being only a single pot and he had more than twice my BHP and four cylinders between his legs. I think his brain was there also.
IAM observer here
In you book it says safety at all times. Progress can be made in many ways ie filtering good clean overtakes and straight lining
Stick to the law always.
Unfortunately many of those manoeuvres you mentioned if done wrong or wrongly taught or done inappropriately can easily lead one into great danger and whilst I believe that the police and emergency services could and should maybe use those practises as and when required to do so I don't ultimately believe that they were intended to be used by the general public and thus they should not be taught at any level to civilians.
If you include car drivers can you imagine the state of our roads if all drivers and riders could wrong side when and where they thought they could do.? There would be mayhem on our country roads. It's bad enough with the dangerous training given on overtakes, the way we did and still do and of making progress. Both of which cause more deaths and serious injuries than any other causes on our roads today. .
Interesting video. Thanks. I have a question: on these advanced rider courses, can you temporarily exceed the speed limit in order to overtake and then revert to the limit....or should you never exceed the.limit under any circumstances? I'm assuming the latter but I wanted to check. Thanks.
You are not encouraged to speed. If u speed when overtaking, u risk the penalty(and a fail) That said, safety is of a higher concern, and if u have committed to an overtake, then a little excess over the limit may be the safest option........ excess speed is obviously discouragedd. If u need to break the speed limit in order to consider the overtake, then u shouldn't!
Is there a minimum power to weight ratio bike needed for the advanced course? I’m just shortlisting candidates for my first big bike and want to do an advanced course to keep updating my skills
Just have enough power on tap to commit to safe overtakes maxed out at 70 mph. and climb hills without too much power and speed loss. ie slowing on a motorway hill to 40 mph? to be able to maintain the legal speed limits on a motorway or any other road that they chose to use.
Thank you for your question. All I have seen as a requirement for advanced training is a bike capable of achieving and maintaining the National Speed Limit. This would seem a sensible requirement to enable all aspects of training, although in fairness some bikes are easier to ride than others, especially at low speeds. I wish you well with your bike choice and further training.
Interesting video, but "opportunity for an overtake" still sounds like you cant just enjoy the ride and you have to get somewhere as quickly as possible, albeit safely. This is what has put me off IAM/RoSPA as i want to be safer/more confident, but have no interest in overtaking, particularly when on a classic bike.
thanks for your comments. I do hear what you say, and I i have heard often about why IAM etc are off putting.
When we train to an enhanced/advanced level, the overtaking process has to be present, as a competent rider needs to be able to do it safely. So as an instructor, I want to see that the rider has the skill and competency to do it for when it may be necessary. However, it isnt the be all and end all and this is where the Enhanced rider scheme can be useful. As long as we have the knowledge and the skill to overtake, it doesnt have to be the preoccupation. And on classic bike i can understand the desire to enjoy the ride.
So if you would like extra training, dont be put off, but maybe a school or the ERS scheme may be better for you than IAM ROSPA etc. All the best
@@MotorcyclePWR I like that you say overtaking when 'necessary'. Its the first rule of any overtake and on page one of Overtaking in Roadcraft. Many riders get mistaken with the NEED to overtake and just WANT to or believe that they should and that puts unnecessary pressure on them to commit to one or more of them or indeed all of the time.
Perhaps when following any vehicle and giving the safe stopping distances they should consider the consequences more and stay back until it becomes NECESSARY which in many case means NOT TO AT ALL .
After all a police officer on normal patrol duties doesn't go haring around like a lunatic. He usually sticks to and adopts the speeds of other vehicles, follows as required and keeps an eye out of offenders etc. He basically will only overtake if he deems it NECESSARY for his job so we should all do the same. As we are not in his job we would not feel it necessary to overtake at every opportunity that arises.
Making everything into an overtake increasing our risk and the risk to others exponentially. Then by reducing the numbers of overtakes required the roads would be a safer place as too many overtakes lead to more accidents deaths and injuries as shown on police stats every year. Perhaps they should be banned and riders will basically have to maintain the status quo when it could just be following the speed of traffic around them.
We are not police officers and should not be trained to make overtakes as they are at times required to do so and only when it is NECESSARY to do so. It would be far safer for us and all other road users for unnecessary overtakes not to be required to commit to at all.
You need to understand what the opportunity for an overtake is first and foremost so that you recognise when to overtake safely, you don’t have to over take at every opportunity, but you need to recognise the correct opportunity should you wish to make an overtake that’s all
My only issue with riders uncomfortable to make progress, as its called, is what their motivation for advanced training is.
If you genuinely think the pace you ride is safe, then why seek an opinion on it.
Of course as your title states, advanced riding is not just about speed, but I do think riders sign up for it, without a clear understanding of what they hope to gain from it.
Yes possibly many do. Some just want a "professional" set of eyes on their riding and some are aware they lack confidence in some areas. Thats why i like flexible courses to suit the individual, hopefully they come away with something useful they didnt have before. All the best
The speed limit is just that a limit,not a target!
Observation and knowing what to do in the event a situation,reading that situation as early as possible leads to safe riding IMHO.
EDIT:- just to add,I'm absolutely sick and fed up with tailgaters when I'm riding or driving at the speed limit,these people are 90+% young women!
I was tolled when going for full licence to drive faster only once and i felt like he was saying that because thats what he was taught.
But i was taught motorcycles should move through traffic and i agree. Filter through for safety and space.
Though trying to tell my girlfriend this when she pillion is apparently hard to understand. She dose not like filtering at all though..the speed limits plenty fast enough for her and like they say. Its what you do with it that counts
I’ve just written an article on this subject. Safety is paramount. Restraint holds priority. Riding to the limit where safe shouldn’t be challenging. If restraint is due it should be shown. I’m an IAM examiner. If someone straight lines a roundabout having checked it’s safe to do so they would earn praise. So I disagree with that comment. Nice bike. I have one 🙂
Thank you for your comment, much appreciated. I agree with all you say, not sure if and what comment you disagree with re straight lining roundabouts but I also concur, if it’s safe and planned then of course!
All the best, ride safe
@@MotorcyclePWRI got the impression that you thought such behaviour would be frowned upon in an IAM test? Maybe I got it wrong 🙂
@sanemancured thank you, I hope I didn’t create that impression, apologies if I did, straight lining would be frowned upon at test standard and a likely fail, but post test/IAM etc indeed as you say praise if safe. All the best
20mph zone keep to 20mph
Get Overtaken I can not speed up I be breaking the Speed limit
Keep what bike says if google maps says 14mph bike says 20mph
What do i do go 3mph more keep to the bike speed Dash board
I think most of us agree that 20mph limits are the work of Satan.
@@_______- 20mph by a school at kicking out time is very reasonable. Many other 20's not so much.
Best to keep to the speed limited by your speedometer reading and that means if riding at 30mph one might be only doing 27/8mph but you will not be done for speeding. Any time you start to add on for so called discrepancies then you run the risk of exceeding the speed limit and putting yourself forward for a possible prosecution.
If we all drove or rode to our speedometer readings the world and our roads would be a safer place.
@@LiamE69 Many of the 20mph limits around schools are just a recommendation and therefore one chooses to obey them or not at ones peril if something untoward happens as result of riding at a higher speed. However if the 20 mph limit is within a red circle it is a mandatory sign and so it MUST BE OBEYED .....LAWFULLY..
Thanks
thank you for your contribution, much appreciated. All the best