Gandalf being afraid of the witch king was a Peter Jackson thing that was done only for the movie. Nowhere in the book does it mention anything close to this
@@BARCELONAFANSINCE the scenes described are clearly from the books, the witch king didn't break the gates in the movies (or enter through the gates - that was 3 trolls)
@@BARCELONAFANSINCE Huhh? The whole backstory being told here is from various Tolkien books (and quite a bit of the author’s imagination), not from the movie. And where does the video say it’s only applicable to the films? CANON is the books, period. Unless explicitly stated that a non-canonical project (like a movie series) is being described, one should assume the video pertains to the original work of JRRT/CJRT. And in the canonical sources, the idea that the Witch-King of Angmar would trouble Gandalf the White in the least is pure bollocks. The concern he would have felt would have been for his companions and for Minas Tirith and Gondor generally. The prophecy that no man could harm the Witch-King only applies to…wait for it…”men.” Gandalf is a maia…many orders mightier than even a buffed and twisted human sorcerer-king. I don’t know where all the material in these videos is coming from. It’s all pretty interesting, and the art is cool, but is it some kind of fan fiction? I’ve read the HoME, Sil, and pretty much every other canonical book in Tolkien’s legendarium. I’m pretty knowledgeable about all of it. I’m thinking this is an “educated fan fiction” channel where an intelligent and knowledgeable bloke fills in the backstories of LOTR characters with his own speculative ideas. Which is ok, as long as it’s not being represented as Tolkien’s own source work. The scene where Angmar cows Gandalf and Pippin and busts his staff (?) - I haven’t seen the films in a few years - was one of many scenes in the Peter Jackson films that made me do this 🤦🏻♂️. I like the films for what they are, and doubt they could have been done much better. But I’m a bit of scholar of JRRT lore, so it’s hard for me to watch any derivative work impartially. And The Hobbit trilogy…Good lord…those were absolutely horrific. Haven’t even watched a trailer or paid any attention to the farcical series on Prime Video, needless to say. It’s gotten out of hand since Christopher passed away. He was the most adamant bulwark against letting others ruin his father’s legacy. Sad times.
@@BARCELONAFANSINCEwhoever made this video tried to make this about the book. Glorfindel appeared in the movie but who he was, what he said about the Witch King were not.
@@dukeonI would love to see a movie stick to the story. In particular Book 1 of Fellowship that includes everything from The Hunt for the Ring with Witch King back story. It could be such a bizarre and disturbing movie. I’ve listened to Andy Serkis read Fellowship so many times now and think…the only thing better than this is reading Fellowship aloud.
There was no scene in the books where Gandalf was in any way concerned about Witch King. The only scene where he fled from the ringwraiths was when ALL NINE attacked him, and even then it was to draw some of those away from hobbits.
Yeh, that scene in the movie where it shows the witch King break gandalfs staff seemed ridiculous, and undermined how strong gandalf was. Especially as gandalf the white. There's no way a corrupted man could be as strong as a Maya.
@@lucozademan999obviously the power level was broken lol. Gandalf the Grey was able to kill a balrog. And Gandalf the white was no match for a human turned witch king? Are they suggesting witch king is stronger than a balrog? 😂
Merry was key to defeating the Witch-King - because he wielded a dagger that was enchanted specifically to defeat him. That dagger was forged by the men of Arnor during the war against the Witch-king. Merry received this dagger from Tom Bombadil who had gathered it from the Barrow where the hobbits were being taken by Barrow-wights. That barrow was the burial site of a numenorean warrior who had fought against the Witch-King and the dagger had been buried with him.
That’s cause Shadowfax was no ordinary horse. He was of the greatest breed of horse known to Rohan who are known for horses. Not only is he a Mearas he was like the leader of them. He was the kings own horse that he considered too wild for the elite cavalry of Rohan. These horses don’t obey, it understands language and you literally have to ask if it’ll go with you; nobody but Gandalf was even able to ride him effectively. He’s essentially like Aragon and the numenoreans. These horses were faster stronger and lived longer than ordinary horses. They lived as long as humans and Shadowfax was said to run faster than the wind. I like him 😅😅
After Gandalf defeated the Balrog and was sent back by Eru he mentioned that the only thing more dangerous than He (Gandalf) was Sauron... The witch king was no match for Gandalf the Grey let alone Gandalf the White. to quote the book "'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." ....
The only person brought before the seat of the dark lord was golum, is this why gandalf would not kill him and left the task to the hobits? could the lava of the montain be the only thing that could have killed golum? Gandalf would do what was needed to save middle earth but he would not kill golum.
@@MargaretKolosky Gandalf didnt kill Gollum because he felt that Gollum had some part to play in the fate of the ring and outside of that didnt go around killing sentients willy nilly unlike Saruman, Sauron and the other evil entities of ME. Gollum could have been killed by any means, similar to other sentients in ME
Actually Gandalf was returned to Middle-Earth at the command of Manwë. Eru only directly interfered in the events of the world when he destroyed Nümenor and reshaped the World into a sphere. Never before. Never after.
@@frankmueller2781I might be remembering wrong but I think the destruction of Numenor and sending Gandalf back were the only two concrete things Eru Iluvitar did? I remember people debating Gollum falling into mount doom and if he did that but I think I'd put my vote to Gandalf owning that one.
@@MargaretKolosky It's easy to kiII golum but Gandalf didn't do it because... reasons. The books are full of illogical flaws but no one dares to say this... entire quest to destroy the ring is ridiculous beyond belief from the first moment to the last.
This is really a load of BS. Gandalf was an Astari, the witch-king a mere jacked mortal when all was said and done. The witch-king had the benefit of a huge numerical advantage which was indeed bolstered by his will. And likewise he turned most of Gandalf us army into a nearly panicked mob. The witch-king was indeed powerful but no match for Gandalf. It should be added that as long as Sauron didn't have his ring even he wasn't a match for Gandalf.
The Istari were stripped of the majority of their power before being sent to middle earth to unite the free peoples fight Sauron instead of risking them becoming the next Sauron like what saramon would have become
@@DarthBaylen the video is obviously referring to the movie portrayal decisions vs the book which is way more detailed but in a movie to develop a character changes get made because no one’s going to watch a week long movie to get the full picture of what the books give
Gandalf wasn't that shocked by the Witch King. He fought off all nine of the Nazgul, including the Witch King on Weathertop. Even together in the dark, they couldn't overpower Gandalf, and that was when he was Gandalf the Grey. His forboding when he had to go stop the Steward from burning his son was that he wouldn't be there at a crucial moment in the fight. That proved true when the Witch King killed Theoden and gravely hurt Eowyn and Merry. Gandalf was well able to see off the Witch King and didn't fear him. And Gandalf wore the elven ring throughout the Lord of the Rings. He was wearing it in Moria when he fought the balrog. That's why he said he was a wielder of the "Flame of Anor" He is directly referring to the ring.
No the flame of anor / secret fire is not about his ring, the secret fire is the power of the order of the valar/ maiar and it is the power used to create middle earth
@theseviolentdelightz Correct. The fire Gandalf is referring to, also known as the Flame Imperishable, is Eru Ilúvatar's power of creation. Something that Morgoth tried and failed to capture. It is the single most powerful thing in the entire universe and is the source of power for the Ainur. Both Gandalf and the balrog were Maiar (lesser Ainur), but the balrog had been transformed by Morgoth into a being of darkness, meaning he was no longer a servant of the Flame like Gandalf was. He was still just as powerful, if not more powerful, than Gandalf, which is why Gandalf took the threat so seriously. They literally killed each other, even with all of Gandalfs power ups from his staff and ring, etc.
Didn’t Gandalf beat the Witch King, and five other wraiths, on weathertop?and that was before his upgrade. There is no comparison to their power levels.
Gandalf didn't beat Witch king and five other Nazguls, Battle happened and at dawn Gandalf runned away and witch king sent four nazguls to chase him. Gandalf had to retreat from Wheatertop so that makes Witch king winner there since he hold the ground Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
He didn't beat them, the Witch King is an undead Lich you can't kill him with brute force and Gandalf knew that, but indeed he faught of the Nazgul. They knew Gandalf was a Maiar and that Maiar are immortals.
Gandolf did not have full access to his power, not by his own doing of wisdom and temperance, but by the decree of Eru not supposed to directly interfere
Gandalf had all powers he did before. He was limitated only because he was in incarnated body unlike other Valar or Maiar before in 1st age. So he had to eat, sleep, drink and so on. Gandalf didn't mind that but Saruman hated that aspect of his existance
Yes, you're right. At full power, he'd be too powerful, on par with Sauron, possibly even more so. Given, as Gandalf the Grey, in the weakened body of an old man, he was powerful enough to defeat a balrog, who wasn't weakened in any way and at his full power. When you take everything into account, that's far more impressive to the readers of the books, than it first appears to the movie goers. If he'd been sent to Middle Earth in his true form, he'd have been too powerful, and like in the last age, Middle Earth would be destroyed in the fight to save it. That's the whole point of the old wise man, aiding others, using force when needed, but not blunt force. If Eru really wanted to, he could have sent any number of far more powerful beings, but he decided that wasn't necessary this time around. As Sauron, of course, wasn't as powerful as Morgoth, therefore, a more subtle stratagem was needed to defeat him. Don't forget the big picture. Eru made everything, including Morgoth and Sauron, which suggests it was always his plan to create adversity, to give purpose to the beings he created. After all, he could have ended Morgoth and Sauron himself, with little to no effort anytime he chose, without any collateral damage, should he have wanted to.
@@creepingdread88 Gandalf was limited (like Saruman and the others) because the Valar feared showing again the Ainur on all their power because of the destruction that had caused before. Still, he was very powerful, more powerful than the version of himself that killed a Balrog (far more powerful that all the Nazul combined). If Gandalf was in all his might, he could have beaten even Sauron.
@@creepingdread88mostly right- but Sauron was of an older and more powerful order of Maia than Gandalf Don’t forget that Tolkien has a general hierarchy where power is dependent upon the order of a beings’s creation “Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.” We also know that Gandalf feared Sauron before even being sent to Middle earth I would also add that the Ainur withdrawal from Middle Earth was because of the destruction they caused in the First Age. However at this point in the the Third age, the reason Gandalf was nerfed was bc man was inheriting Middle earth and needed to handle their own issues.
I think whoever made this is misled about tolkiens power scaling. No where in the books is gandalf shocked about the witch kings acts. GandalfS only real concern was the ability of the host of men to overcome the evil that confronts them at minas tirith and the war being waged on the battlefieds of Gondor. That much was revealed to him by the valar after the battle with durins bane.
Bollocks, one was slaying balrogs in his lesser form other one perished at a hands of shield maiden and hobbit in his prime. Not even same order of magnitude power vise.
Gandalf being afraid of the witch king was only in the movie, Gandalf is one of the powerful beings who served under the Valar, the divine beings who created Middle-earth. Gandalf is specifically a member of the Istari, a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth to aid the free peoples in their struggle against Sauron.
He was entire book he worried by encounter with him and before Gandalf had to retreat from Wheatertop so that makes Witch king winner there since he hold the ground Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
@@michaelstark8720 they were all 9 nazguls that attacked Gandalf on weathertop and he left it to draw some of them with him. The witchking was sure a formiddleble force but the book really dosnt give him the edge over Gandalf.
@@jimbombadill No, just five only Gandalf thought it was nine when he was telling story in Rivendell. Witch king and 4 nazguls were joined by one that stayed near Amon Sul and they attacked Gandalf. And I do give him huge advantage over Gandalf. Words of spell he cast on ram and gate were probably from 1st age magic since there isn't language that is forgotten like that was described
Gandalf cowering before the Witch King and the latter breaking his staff was sheer creative liberty by Peter Jackson. While a formidable foe in his own right, the WK just wasn't in the same league as Gandalf, a Maia that was created before the world and who dwelled in the Undying Lands with the grace and blessings of the Valar. No contest.
Gandalf knew the power level of the ring wraiths depended on sauron, so when he encountered the witch king at minas tirith Gandalf knew sauron was significantly more powerful now.
Nah dawg, the movies nerfed Gandalf too much in this scene. No way the witch king would break Gandalf staff then lose on a battle to Eowin. Aint no way.
Since when does a movie rewrite a book? Peter Jackson stayed closer to the LOTR trilogy than Hollywood usually does but the trilogy is the ultimate truth of the story. Christopher Lee was the only cast member who actually met Tolkien, and he was killed early!
@@justingreen7984 It's not quite minor. Many characters were changed dramatically, but it is still better than Hollywood usually does. Even at the beginning, it was a male Elf who saved Frodo, not Aragon's girlfriend! Many major characters were only a shadow of what they were in the book!
@@ChetJang yeh in trilogy that already had to cover so many characters the little changes they made added to the film. If Arwen doesn't save Frodo there I mean she isn't really gonna do much else in the story. So yeh the changes are minor.
Gandalf is not a man either he was going to go after the Witch King until Pippin convinced him to save Faramir instead. Gandalf even said in the Two Towers that the party possessed no weapon that could hurt him and only Sauron was more powerful than him. So he obviously wasn't that concerned and let the Witch King get killed by a Mery and Éowyn with standard weapons so fulfilling the prophecy as neither were men
Exactly, it was one of the many non-sense in PJ's movies. Gandalf would destroy the witch king with his hand tied behind his back. Gandalf the grey killed a balrog, a being nearly as powerful as Sauron and certainly much more than the witch king. And Gandalf the white was even more powerful, as the Valar allowed him to use more of his powers this time. On top of that, Gandalf had an elvish sword, not just any sword, Glamdring was the sword of Turgon, if the witch king didn't like Merry's dagger, imagine what would happen with this sword. In the book, this conforntation never happened because the witch king fled to meet to rohirim, the only thing in favour of the witch king was Glorfinde's prophecy that he wouldn't be killed by a man (Gandalf wasn't a man but looked like one). Anyway, trying to explain PJ's non-sense is even more non-sense.
Gandalf was NOT afraid or shocked by the witch king. Gandalf was the single most powerful being in middle earth except for Sauron and maybe Tom Bombadil. In the books, he absolutely BODIES the wraiths.
Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
@@3characterhandlerequired Do as you like. You can check tolkien own writings of events during war of ther ring andits aftermath and even just search banner of Minas Morgul Witch King used when he set his seat there. Morgul was capital of Ithilien region. Witch King was lord of that region
@@michaelstark8720 Minas Ithil as it was called. Not the original lord there, captured by Sauron forces. Just tell me which book tells the things that happen to Minas Morgul after the war. Also where it is said that Gandalf had any hesitation for encountering Witch King. Because that doesn't exist.
That "no man" was reference to Macbeth that added "woman born" -- which for some reason did not count C-section (never mind the mother bore the son for months before that) along with something about "marching woods" that was using branches as camouflage in Macbeth -- Tolkien introduced Ents. I prefer Tolkien's version.
I'm not going to go into the differences between the books and movies and whether Gandalf feared the witch king. I would just like to point out that the Balrog was born a long time in the past when gods did battle and besides a handful of very special people, nobody could have beaten it besides Gandalf. He probably felt he was perfectly justified in going all out and trying to personally slay it because it shouldn't be the burden of men, it really had little to do with them and more to do with his kind. The third age of course leading into the age of man. Whereas the witch king was a human and part of a very human conflict/destiny, sure he was very powerful and Gandalf very well probably could have cast aside destiny and just slain him - with some effort - but he wasn't supposed to and he couldn't justify it... so a direct conflict between them would be avoided by Gandalf. Man had to beat the witch king. Beyond this, I always got the impression that Gandalf was allowed to defend himself when directly threatened and able to rally human forces during a battle but he should not personally go looking for a fight and flee if possible during a direct fight... even if he could win the fight. This probably is more in regard to enemies of substance rather than those that have no real bearing on the overall flow of human endeavours. E.g. mowing down a few orcs to inspire the regular soldiers to keep fighting is vastly different to Gandalf taking out the orc commanders and directly influencing the battle. The Balrog of course being an exception.
I understand that Sauron was able to control those he gave the rings to, but was that only one way? Were any of those that wore one of the rings also left an some kind of impression or mark upon Sauron?
In peter jacksons films i think the staff shattering sceen was removed and only included in the extended versions released on dvd/blu ray etc but i might be wrong. My guess (if my memory is right and its the extended version) would be Jackson removed it as it didnt make a lot of sense but it was included in the extended version as it had already been finished via cgi etc before being cut.
While they're definitely was no point in the books that the witch King greatly concerned Gandalf, I do think the extended scene from The Return of the King serves the purpose and illustrating to the audience that tolkien's world is not so cut and dry as, because this person is a Maia, he would win. In tolkien's world it is disparity the greatness is born from. A human can challenge a Maia just as a warg can challenge a person. I think the scene was trying to illustrate that the nature of something does not guarantee its outcome
The magic of middle earth is often misunderstood, it’s not as simple as Maia beats Man/elf, this isn’t dungeons and dragons (only example I could think of, forgive me if I’m wrong). It’s all relative. Evil can pierce you, and the virtuous can defeat the greatest evil. It’s a very complicated world.
true, proof of that is when Fingolfin hurt Morgoth multiple times, but in the end he lost. If we were talking about men, elves, dwarves it would be correct, but here we are talking about a Maia, simply they were in a different league, for once, they could not be killed. Only Gandalf's body was killed when he fought the balrog, his spirit could not be killed, same as Sauron's or Morgoth's. True that men and elves' souls also cannot be killed, but they can be in Arda without a body, the Ainur can.
Oh, Gandalf was not afraid at all. He stalled the Witch King, but the confrontation was interrupted because both of them had other matters to attend to. IIRC, Gandalf later lamented that Denethor's madness had interrupted him, because of all the extra harm that could be prevented if he had defeated the Witch King. Gandalf defeated a Balrog when he was The Grey, before his rebirth as The White. He would have destroyed the Witch King. The single most important thing that allowed Eowyn and Merry to kill the Witch King, is that he totally ignored Merry, but he had the perfect anti-nazgul weapon, as the book clearly states: "So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will".
No possible way Galdalf the White would lose to the Witch-King. He said himself that he was dangerous, more dangerous than Sauron himself unless maybe he had his ring and a physical form. A ring-wraith could not go toe to toe with Gandalf. A hobbit and a woman killed him. Gandalf knew this was his fate, and he needed to get to the Steward and prevent him from doing something so stupid. He knew fate would beat the Witch-King and he had to do nothing and he would still fall. Everyone forgets that the hobbit that helped kill him had an enchanted dagger specifically made to be capable of harming him. It was his fate to be killed by something or someone that was not a man. The Witch-King failed to read the prophecy correctly, and his faith in his flawed reading of that prophecy was his biggest weakness. He truly believed nothing could kill him, when it was only men he did not have to fear.
Hello, nice, thank you! For the Merry, Eowyn against Witch King. Merry had a blade from Tom Bombadil which had powers that enabled to penetrate the Witch King´s invulnerability, after which, Eowyn could kill him. It was not bypass of - ,,No Man can kill me, fool :-)"
The book version of Gandalf was actually significantly stronger than the Witch King, more so by the time of Minas Tirith. Yes, the Witch King had the fear aura that every Nazgul actually had but some people through strength of will could resist it, such as the two who killed him. He was also significantly stronger than his ilk but that was because Sauron just plain gave him more, such as his necromancy used to summon the barrow wights centuries earlier. Gandalf as a Maiar was just inherently better than him, better than all Nazgul by far, and while it was probably a good fight even the whole nine of them had failed to stop him once. Even in a game made much later by people who weren't Tolkien remained consistent in showing this. Shadow of War had the Witch King as basically the main enemy of Talion, and both being ring-powered men this was workable. Yet even there while Talion is able to temporarily win against him, he eventually is written as inevitably failing. They also have a balrog in the game named Tar Goroth who was very clearly depicted as far stronger than the Witch King and couldn't possibly be stopped without another force which helps you, in line with the fact that balrogs are also Maiar and would be on a different playing field to any man with a magic ring.
Good essay about the themes of the light and darkness in Middle Earth. But a maia (Gandalf) wouldn’t fear even the most powerful Nazgûl any more than he would fear a mosquito. Mosquitoes are annoying, but they stop being annoying if you swat them. Gandalf’s concern was all about the War in general. The films took a lot of liberties.
If the Nine Rings actually made their bearers immortal, that would mean Sauron could override the will of Eru himself. More like the rings delayed death but couldn’t keep it at bay forever.
I think a strong argument could be made that Gandalf the White if forced to fight Sauron in open battle without his ring would have the upper hand. This is based on Gandalf so easily break Saruman staff and in the movie was completely unphased by Sarumans fireball blasted from his staff. As the white he became leagues of magnitude more powerful than Saruman who before quite easily bested him. It would stand to reason that in his White form would dismiss a Balrog with a wave of his staff and likewise be on par with Sauron. Thoughts?
Gandalf realized the Witch King could kill him. He already died once by the Balrog. It hurt quite a bit to burn alive. But that's not what Gandalf feared. When he died he came back from grey to white. What comes after white? Clear. Gandalf did not want to be clear.
Gandalf was never shocked in regards to the witch king, he fought all 9 wraiths from dusk to dawn to protect the hobbits. Peter Jackson did Gandalf so dirty in the movie. Because in reality Gandalf would kick the witch kings ass.
Your title is not a question, and should not have a question mark. It is the title of a proposed answer. Either switch the words “Gandalf” and “Was” or remove the question mark.
I think Gandalf is participating in all the events in Middle-earth by holding back as much as he can. When needed. My only complaint is that Galadriel in the movies is too powerful. She's an elf. Presented in movies as more powerful than Gandalf. The wisest of the Maiar, created by Ilúvatar before the Music of the Ainur.
The balrog had been sleeping under a mountain for thousands of years. Sauron had been massing and accumulating power since the beginning of time. Which of them is really stronger? The balrog wasn't gothmog.
Fantastic analysis and commentary. So incredibly relevant to our current time. Just one question: was any human involved in any part of this? AI generated visuals and narration: is the synopsis at least done by an organic being?
The narrative and the illustrations of Gandalf encounter with the witch king is second to none, but the only thing that I dislike was that the narrator repeats himself a number of times! Just an observation.
big difference between book and movie. In book, there were a few who could ride openly against the nine. Glorfindel being the greatest, was sent in the most direct possibility. The Witch King power to instill fear, was probably mostly against men, and not elves, hence the great elves could face them down, one against many, furthermore, most elves could elude them. Gandalf of knew of Glorfindel's prognostication that WK would fall far - time and space, and not by the hand of man. So, what was meant by man? a male of any species (men, elves, dwarfs) or men the second born of Illuvitar. If the first, then Gandalf would not be the one to kill WK. If second, then he could.
i ahve niot read anything in the book that says Gandalf were shocked by the witch king, he knew the witch king and its abilities wery well. hestood firm when the gates of minastirith were shattered. He witstood teh presence of the witch king. in fact even as gandalf teh grey on Amon-Sül he fought the nine and he won too. the witch king on the other hand WAs shocked by Gandalf.
I think perhaps the intent behind Peter Jackson's representation of an "outmatched" Gandalf is not simply a matter of who's more powerful. Certainly Gandalf the White could make the witch King crawl on his belly if he chose to. But there is the prophecy for lack of a better term that "no man would be the end of the Witch king". Obviously Gandalf is "no man" as it were but that is what he appeared to be to others. So I guess that for him to challenge and destroy the witch King would be a Vulgar Display of Power that would have exposed him and been something of a blasphemy as that was never his way nor was it intended to be.
Gandalf and Shadowfax blocked the path and wasn’t scared of the witch king. Gandalf and a balrog are on the same level but nah that was only that one scene in the movie. He even fight them all off by himself on weathertop as well
PeterJackson's scene was BS. In the book Gandalf alone stands his ground, no fear, as the Witch King enters Minas Tirith. All this in contrast to the fleeing soldiers of Gondor. It was just him and Shadowfax, confident and ready to throw hands. Gandalf the White would bave wiped the floor with the Witchking had Rohan not arrived, and were he not distracted by Denethor's antics.
despite other comments about if Gandalf was surprised by the Witch King, this video does a really good analysis of how power can take many forms and is I would hope how Tolkien intended to write it. Power is not just absolute domination.
While I love Peter Jackson's LoTR trilogy... I always felt he did not do the Witch king any justice. When I read Lotr many times throughout my life, there was one character that i felt was as powerful as anything wlking middle earth. I'd have loved to see a Witch King Gandalf battle. They were both of ancient powers and I'm not sure that during the 3rd age mortal men could even fathom those ancient powers. However, Gandalf was never afraid of the Witch King. Gandalf was more calculated than most want to admit, but Gandalf was never afraid. Sauron wasnt whole so in my view Gandalf was the strongest being walking middle earth. But the witch king was a bad bad dude for sure.
The confrontation was NOT SHOCKING for Gandalf.... If the Balrog assaulted Minas Tirith the only thing that could have stopped him was Gandalf. The balrog was an order of magnitude more powerful than the Witch-king - and Gandalf the Grey defeated him. The Witch-king was stopped cold by Gandalf - now Gandalf the White and more powerful yet - and rode away. The movie's interpretation was incorrect. Just as its depiction of the dead spirits scouring the city was. Aragorn rescued the city with the men he led from the southern shores of Gondor - the dead were responsible for making the Corsairs of Umbar flee, leaving their very ships empty for Aragorn to take. With those ships, filled now with Gondor's soldiery, he sailed upstream and assailed the armies from the Anduin, while the riders of Rohan assailed them from the west. The corruption by Sauron of Denethor led to the circumstances that kept Gandalf from pursuing the Witch-King, as Gandalf had to choose between saving Faramir or saving those on the field from what the Witch-King might yet do.
I hate this scene in the trilogy...it is the only scene I feel this way about because PJ did Gandalf so dirty! It is almost the opposite in the book...No shattering of a staff...no falling back in fear
Gandalf wasn't shocked by the Witchking. The author of this video Hadd made certain assumptions that are not backed up by Tolkiens writing. We didn't get to see Gandalf fight the Witchking but it wouldn't have gone well for the Wotcjking if they had.
This entire thing is predicated on somethat that isnt even canonically correct. The witch king did confront gandalf at minas tirith. Gandalf essentially told him to fuck off and that he cant come in. And that was that.
Mary really. Its Merry. Meriadoc BrandyBuck. A halfling responsible for the direct downfall of the Witch King no less! Well, half of the downfall. The other half being the shield maiden of Rohan Eowyn!
He was not...... that was a Movie aberration.... none of that happened in the books.... Gandalf was a Maiar, like Sauron was..... they were above any pathetic human spook, no matter how dark and scary......
Sorry. Appreciate all your effort and time in this video, but you missed the big point, it’s not about power at all, power corrupts absolutely. Read the book as to what happens after the Witch King’s threat; I shall paraphrase for the most part here, but Gandalf sits still on Shadowfax and in a courtyard far away in the city a cock crowed. The text says, “Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war….” The horns or Rohan sound and the Witch King’s prophecy almost becomes a self-fulfilling one, as Eowyn and Merry put an end to him. It’s not power that crushes evil, and give me a little slack for borrowing from Jackson’s best moments here, it’s the belief that, “There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is a very comforting thought.” Gandalf knows things will work out for the side of Light, and he’s played his part. He knows it’s not his task to kill the Lord of Angmar, and Providence, if you will, is on his side.
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Whether in the book or any adaptation or LOTR, I think it is a ridiculous plot point that Gandalf the White, an Angel incarnate, a servant of and wielder of the sacred fire of creation, and the most powerful force of good in Middle Earth could not necessarily defeat the Witch King of Angmar, but two mortal beings, Eowyn and Merry could.
Power levels don't really work in Arda. Hobbits defeating dragons and, er the witch king etc. Keeping your word, oath and honour are powers. Fear and deception are countered with courage and truth. Darkness with light. Saurons "power" was his ability to deceive & corrupt on a mass scale. Gandalfs was to inspire courage in others. He was a perfect counter - the Witch King was irrelevant
I completely disagree with this but I'm no expert. Gandalf would have wiped the floor with this guy I mean it wouldn't even have been close. The which king could not have even beaten that ballrog. Not to mention gandolf had a ring of power. I would go as far as to say gandalf was probably 50% stronger than the Rich King.
Yeah this video is very movie based. As Gtw even power blocked and not allowed to unleash any of his real power vs the WK was never a threat to Gtw and in the books it was very much Gtw saying don't try it or I'll slap you & wk didn't even try . You also missed Gtg beat the balrog which anyone whos read the older books its considered stronger than Sauron soo a Wk even empowered by Sauron which is same lvl as Gandalf & Balrog wouldn't have come close.
This is the biggest error in the movies which l generally love. It grates on me every time l watch them. Gandalf the White was second only in power to Sauron in my view
Gandalf being afraid of the witch king was a Peter Jackson thing that was done only for the movie. Nowhere in the book does it mention anything close to this
We are talking about the movie right now, not the book.
@@BARCELONAFANSINCE the scenes described are clearly from the books, the witch king didn't break the gates in the movies (or enter through the gates - that was 3 trolls)
@@BARCELONAFANSINCE Huhh? The whole backstory being told here is from various Tolkien books (and quite a bit of the author’s imagination), not from the movie. And where does the video say it’s only applicable to the films?
CANON is the books, period. Unless explicitly stated that a non-canonical project (like a movie series) is being described, one should assume the video pertains to the original work of JRRT/CJRT. And in the canonical sources, the idea that the Witch-King of Angmar would trouble Gandalf the White in the least is pure bollocks.
The concern he would have felt would have been for his companions and for Minas Tirith and Gondor generally. The prophecy that no man could harm the Witch-King only applies to…wait for it…”men.” Gandalf is a maia…many orders mightier than even a buffed and twisted human sorcerer-king.
I don’t know where all the material in these videos is coming from. It’s all pretty interesting, and the art is cool, but is it some kind of fan fiction? I’ve read the HoME, Sil, and pretty much every other canonical book in Tolkien’s legendarium. I’m pretty knowledgeable about all of it.
I’m thinking this is an “educated fan fiction” channel where an intelligent and knowledgeable bloke fills in the backstories of LOTR characters with his own speculative ideas. Which is ok, as long as it’s not being represented as Tolkien’s own source work.
The scene where Angmar cows Gandalf and Pippin and busts his staff (?) - I haven’t seen the films in a few years - was one of many scenes in the Peter Jackson films that made me do this 🤦🏻♂️. I like the films for what they are, and doubt they could have been done much better. But I’m a bit of scholar of JRRT lore, so it’s hard for me to watch any derivative work impartially. And The Hobbit trilogy…Good lord…those were absolutely horrific. Haven’t even watched a trailer or paid any attention to the farcical series on Prime Video, needless to say.
It’s gotten out of hand since Christopher passed away. He was the most adamant bulwark against letting others ruin his father’s legacy. Sad times.
@@BARCELONAFANSINCEwhoever made this video tried to make this about the book. Glorfindel appeared in the movie but who he was, what he said about the Witch King were not.
@@dukeonI would love to see a movie stick to the story. In particular Book 1 of Fellowship that includes everything from The Hunt for the Ring with Witch King back story. It could be such a bizarre and disturbing movie. I’ve listened to Andy Serkis read Fellowship so many times now and think…the only thing better than this is reading Fellowship aloud.
There was no scene in the books where Gandalf was in any way concerned about Witch King. The only scene where he fled from the ringwraiths was when ALL NINE attacked him, and even then it was to draw some of those away from hobbits.
was he not still the Grey then too? i can't remember it's been nearly 2 decades since my last read through haha
Exactly.
Yeh, that scene in the movie where it shows the witch King break gandalfs staff seemed ridiculous, and undermined how strong gandalf was. Especially as gandalf the white. There's no way a corrupted man could be as strong as a Maya.
@@lucozademan999obviously the power level was broken lol. Gandalf the Grey was able to kill a balrog. And Gandalf the white was no match for a human turned witch king? Are they suggesting witch king is stronger than a balrog? 😂
Seems like this is video is just generated from an AI prompt
Merry was key to defeating the Witch-King - because he wielded a dagger that was enchanted specifically to defeat him. That dagger was forged by the men of Arnor during the war against the Witch-king. Merry received this dagger from Tom Bombadil who had gathered it from the Barrow where the hobbits were being taken by Barrow-wights. That barrow was the burial site of a numenorean warrior who had fought against the Witch-King and the dagger had been buried with him.
Gandalf's Horse wasn't even afraid of the Witch King.
That’s cause Shadowfax was no ordinary horse. He was of the greatest breed of horse known to Rohan who are known for horses. Not only is he a Mearas he was like the leader of them. He was the kings own horse that he considered too wild for the elite cavalry of Rohan. These horses don’t obey, it understands language and you literally have to ask if it’ll go with you; nobody but Gandalf was even able to ride him effectively. He’s essentially like Aragon and the numenoreans. These horses were faster stronger and lived longer than ordinary horses. They lived as long as humans and Shadowfax was said to run faster than the wind.
I like him 😅😅
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Shadowfax wasn't afraid of anything.
Shadowfax doesn’t afraid of anything. Just like halo 😌
After Gandalf defeated the Balrog and was sent back by Eru he mentioned that the only thing more dangerous than He (Gandalf) was Sauron... The witch king was no match for Gandalf the Grey let alone Gandalf the White. to quote the book "'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord." ....
The only person brought before the seat of the dark lord was golum, is this why gandalf would not kill him and left the task to the hobits? could the lava of the montain be the only thing that could have killed golum? Gandalf would do what was needed to save middle earth but he would not kill golum.
@@MargaretKolosky Gandalf didnt kill Gollum because he felt that Gollum had some part to play in the fate of the ring and outside of that didnt go around killing sentients willy nilly unlike Saruman, Sauron and the other evil entities of ME. Gollum could have been killed by any means, similar to other sentients in ME
Actually Gandalf was returned to Middle-Earth at the command of Manwë. Eru only directly interfered in the events of the world when he destroyed Nümenor and reshaped the World into a sphere. Never before. Never after.
@@frankmueller2781I might be remembering wrong but I think the destruction of Numenor and sending Gandalf back were the only two concrete things Eru Iluvitar did? I remember people debating Gollum falling into mount doom and if he did that but I think I'd put my vote to Gandalf owning that one.
@@MargaretKolosky It's easy to kiII golum but Gandalf didn't do it because... reasons. The books are full of illogical flaws but no one dares to say this... entire quest to destroy the ring is ridiculous beyond belief from the first moment to the last.
This is really a load of BS. Gandalf was an Astari, the witch-king a mere jacked mortal when all was said and done. The witch-king had the benefit of a huge numerical advantage which was indeed bolstered by his will. And likewise he turned most of Gandalf us army into a nearly panicked mob. The witch-king was indeed powerful but no match for Gandalf. It should be added that as long as Sauron didn't have his ring even he wasn't a match for Gandalf.
'Istari'
@@abudia6403 Correct, I wish that I could have done an edit! 🧐
The Istari were stripped of the majority of their power before being sent to middle earth to unite the free peoples fight Sauron instead of risking them becoming the next Sauron like what saramon would have become
Yeah indeed I have recently mute this particular channel it is full bs just for click traps
@@DarthBaylen the video is obviously referring to the movie portrayal decisions vs the book which is way more detailed but in a movie to develop a character changes get made because no one’s going to watch a week long movie to get the full picture of what the books give
Gandalf wasn't that shocked by the Witch King. He fought off all nine of the Nazgul, including the Witch King on Weathertop. Even together in the dark, they couldn't overpower Gandalf, and that was when he was Gandalf the Grey. His forboding when he had to go stop the Steward from burning his son was that he wouldn't be there at a crucial moment in the fight. That proved true when the Witch King killed Theoden and gravely hurt Eowyn and Merry. Gandalf was well able to see off the Witch King and didn't fear him. And Gandalf wore the elven ring throughout the Lord of the Rings. He was wearing it in Moria when he fought the balrog. That's why he said he was a wielder of the "Flame of Anor" He is directly referring to the ring.
No the flame of anor / secret fire is not about his ring, the secret fire is the power of the order of the valar/ maiar and it is the power used to create middle earth
@theseviolentdelightz Correct. The fire Gandalf is referring to, also known as the Flame Imperishable, is Eru Ilúvatar's power of creation. Something that Morgoth tried and failed to capture. It is the single most powerful thing in the entire universe and is the source of power for the Ainur. Both Gandalf and the balrog were Maiar (lesser Ainur), but the balrog had been transformed by Morgoth into a being of darkness, meaning he was no longer a servant of the Flame like Gandalf was. He was still just as powerful, if not more powerful, than Gandalf, which is why Gandalf took the threat so seriously. They literally killed each other, even with all of Gandalfs power ups from his staff and ring, etc.
The only thing Gandalf feared was to fuck up his mission to help people fix their shit by themselves.
he feared Sauron
Didn’t Gandalf beat the Witch King, and five other wraiths, on weathertop?and that was before his upgrade. There is no comparison to their power levels.
The witch king also got a power up. "Added demonic force" by Sauron
Gandalf didn't beat Witch king and five other Nazguls, Battle happened and at dawn Gandalf runned away and witch king sent four nazguls to chase him. Gandalf had to retreat from Wheatertop so that makes Witch king winner there since he hold the ground
Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
@@michaelstark8720 correction, in your scenario that makes the witch king and FOUR other nazgul the victorS. It was 5v1.
He didn't beat them, the Witch King is an undead Lich you can't kill him with brute force and Gandalf knew that, but indeed he faught of the Nazgul. They knew Gandalf was a Maiar and that Maiar are immortals.
He beat all nine of them at weathertop. Some people replying are either trolling or don't know what they're talking about.
Gandalf is not a man. Elves are not men. The prophecy talks about a man. A number of creatures could theoretically defeat the Witch King.
Exactly 👍
true, but I also emphasize it was a prophecy, not a fact (e.g. not that a man couldn't kill him, just that wouldn't).
It isn’t that a man couldn’t, it was that it wouldn’t be a man.
Gandolf did not have full access to his power, not by his own doing of wisdom and temperance, but by the decree of Eru not supposed to directly interfere
Gandalf had all powers he did before. He was limitated only because he was in incarnated body unlike other Valar or Maiar before in 1st age. So he had to eat, sleep, drink and so on. Gandalf didn't mind that but Saruman hated that aspect of his existance
Yes, you're right. At full power, he'd be too powerful, on par with Sauron, possibly even more so. Given, as Gandalf the Grey, in the weakened body of an old man, he was powerful enough to defeat a balrog, who wasn't weakened in any way and at his full power. When you take everything into account, that's far more impressive to the readers of the books, than it first appears to the movie goers. If he'd been sent to Middle Earth in his true form, he'd have been too powerful, and like in the last age, Middle Earth would be destroyed in the fight to save it. That's the whole point of the old wise man, aiding others, using force when needed, but not blunt force. If Eru really wanted to, he could have sent any number of far more powerful beings, but he decided that wasn't necessary this time around. As Sauron, of course, wasn't as powerful as Morgoth, therefore, a more subtle stratagem was needed to defeat him. Don't forget the big picture. Eru made everything, including Morgoth and Sauron, which suggests it was always his plan to create adversity, to give purpose to the beings he created. After all, he could have ended Morgoth and Sauron himself, with little to no effort anytime he chose, without any collateral damage, should he have wanted to.
@@creepingdread88 Gandalf was limited (like Saruman and the others) because the Valar feared showing again the Ainur on all their power because of the destruction that had caused before.
Still, he was very powerful, more powerful than the version of himself that killed a Balrog (far more powerful that all the Nazul combined).
If Gandalf was in all his might, he could have beaten even Sauron.
@@creepingdread88mostly right- but Sauron was of an older and more powerful order of Maia than Gandalf
Don’t forget that Tolkien has a general hierarchy where power is dependent upon the order of a beings’s creation
“Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.”
We also know that Gandalf feared Sauron before even being sent to Middle earth
I would also add that the Ainur withdrawal from Middle Earth was because of the destruction they caused in the First Age.
However at this point in the the Third age, the reason Gandalf was nerfed was bc man was inheriting Middle earth and needed to handle their own issues.
I think whoever made this is misled about tolkiens power scaling. No where in the books is gandalf shocked about the witch kings acts. GandalfS only real concern was the ability of the host of men to overcome the evil that confronts them at minas tirith and the war being waged on the battlefieds of Gondor. That much was revealed to him by the valar after the battle with durins bane.
Bollocks, one was slaying balrogs in his lesser form other one perished at a hands of shield maiden and hobbit in his prime. Not even same order of magnitude power vise.
"No man can kill me"- Neither of them were human males. Unfortunately for Gandalf though...
@@MavenWalsh And since when is Gandalf human male?
@@Djo-ck4hm He's locked into a human male body. That's enough.
@@MavenWalshno, he's not. He's an istari.
@Djo-ck4hm they 'wear' human-looking forms, but it's an illusion. He was a maiar.
Gandalf being afraid of the witch king was only in the movie, Gandalf is one of the powerful beings who served under the Valar, the divine beings who created Middle-earth. Gandalf is specifically a member of the Istari, a group of Maiar sent to Middle-earth to aid the free peoples in their struggle against Sauron.
This was the only thing that bothered me about the movie. The Witch King was a super powered human but Gandalf was an Istar and a Maiar.
Gansldalf was NOT shocked by the witch king
He was entire book he worried by encounter with him and before Gandalf had to retreat from Wheatertop so that makes Witch king winner there since he hold the ground
Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
@@michaelstark8720 they were all 9 nazguls that attacked Gandalf on weathertop and he left it to draw some of them with him. The witchking was sure a formiddleble force but the book really dosnt give him the edge over Gandalf.
@@jimbombadill No, just five only Gandalf thought it was nine when he was telling story in Rivendell. Witch king and 4 nazguls were joined by one that stayed near Amon Sul and they attacked Gandalf. And I do give him huge advantage over Gandalf. Words of spell he cast on ram and gate were probably from 1st age magic since there isn't language that is forgotten like that was described
He was, you can clearly see he was worried when he had to engage him in the movie. For the record, we are talking about the movie, not the book.
@@BARCELONAFANSINCE that was not clarifyed in this video
Gandalf cowering before the Witch King and the latter breaking his staff was sheer creative liberty by Peter Jackson. While a formidable foe in his own right, the WK just wasn't in the same league as Gandalf, a Maia that was created before the world and who dwelled in the Undying Lands with the grace and blessings of the Valar. No contest.
Gandalf knew the power level of the ring wraiths depended on sauron, so when he encountered the witch king at minas tirith Gandalf knew sauron was significantly more powerful now.
Wonderful illustrations . Thank you .
Nah dawg, the movies nerfed Gandalf too much in this scene. No way the witch king would break Gandalf staff then lose on a battle to Eowin. Aint no way.
Since when does a movie rewrite a book? Peter Jackson stayed closer to the LOTR trilogy than Hollywood usually does but the trilogy is the ultimate truth of the story. Christopher Lee was the only cast member who actually met Tolkien, and he was killed early!
yeh and I feel like the changes he made for the big screen was minor
@@justingreen7984 It's not quite minor. Many characters were changed dramatically, but it is still better than Hollywood usually does. Even at the beginning, it was a male Elf who saved Frodo, not Aragon's girlfriend! Many major characters were only a shadow of what they were in the book!
@@ChetJang yeh in trilogy that already had to cover so many characters the little changes they made added to the film. If Arwen doesn't save Frodo there I mean she isn't really gonna do much else in the story. So yeh the changes are minor.
Gandalf is not a man either he was going to go after the Witch King until Pippin convinced him to save Faramir instead.
Gandalf even said in the Two Towers that the party possessed no weapon that could hurt him and only Sauron was more powerful than him.
So he obviously wasn't that concerned and let the Witch King get killed by a Mery and Éowyn with standard weapons so fulfilling the prophecy as neither were men
the blade wasn't a regular weapon, it was an ancient enchanted blade
Exactly, it was one of the many non-sense in PJ's movies. Gandalf would destroy the witch king with his hand tied behind his back.
Gandalf the grey killed a balrog, a being nearly as powerful as Sauron and certainly much more than the witch king. And Gandalf the white was even more powerful, as the Valar allowed him to use more of his powers this time. On top of that, Gandalf had an elvish sword, not just any sword, Glamdring was the sword of Turgon, if the witch king didn't like Merry's dagger, imagine what would happen with this sword.
In the book, this conforntation never happened because the witch king fled to meet to rohirim, the only thing in favour of the witch king was Glorfinde's prophecy that he wouldn't be killed by a man (Gandalf wasn't a man but looked like one). Anyway, trying to explain PJ's non-sense is even more non-sense.
The confrontation did happen. The witch king was approached by gandalf at the gate to the city. Gandalf told him to get bent. Then the rohirrim come.
Gandalf was NOT afraid or shocked by the witch king. Gandalf was the single most powerful being in middle earth except for Sauron and maybe Tom Bombadil. In the books, he absolutely BODIES the wraiths.
Gandalf's enhanced wisdom allowed him to realize that fate itself would destroy the Witch King, as was his destiny.
Plus when Sauron was defeated, Mordor was settled by Sauron's former slaves but Minas Morgul could never be cleansed. Witch king Power corrupted that place beyond repair. This alone shows the Power of Witch King influence on world around him. In 3rd age Sauron was mostrly power behind scene while Witch king was his absolute servant even independent since he had his own flag and kingdom in Minas Morgul with flag having crescent and skull instead of Sauron forces that had eye symbols mostly
This is in books where exactly?
read and learn
@@michaelstark8720 I'll take that as you don't know and are just making things up from your head.
@@3characterhandlerequired Do as you like. You can check tolkien own writings of events during war of ther ring andits aftermath and even just search banner of Minas Morgul Witch King used when he set his seat there. Morgul was capital of Ithilien region. Witch King was lord of that region
@@michaelstark8720 Minas Ithil as it was called. Not the original lord there, captured by Sauron forces. Just tell me which book tells the things that happen to Minas Morgul after the war. Also where it is said that Gandalf had any hesitation for encountering Witch King. Because that doesn't exist.
That "no man" was reference to Macbeth that added "woman born" -- which for some reason did not count C-section (never mind the mother bore the son for months before that) along with something about "marching woods" that was using branches as camouflage in Macbeth -- Tolkien introduced Ents. I prefer Tolkien's version.
I'm not going to go into the differences between the books and movies and whether Gandalf feared the witch king.
I would just like to point out that the Balrog was born a long time in the past when gods did battle and besides a handful of very special people, nobody could have beaten it besides Gandalf.
He probably felt he was perfectly justified in going all out and trying to personally slay it because it shouldn't be the burden of men, it really had little to do with them and more to do with his kind.
The third age of course leading into the age of man.
Whereas the witch king was a human and part of a very human conflict/destiny, sure he was very powerful and Gandalf very well probably could have cast aside destiny and just slain him - with some effort - but he wasn't supposed to and he couldn't justify it... so a direct conflict between them would be avoided by Gandalf.
Man had to beat the witch king.
Beyond this, I always got the impression that Gandalf was allowed to defend himself when directly threatened and able to rally human forces during a battle but he should not personally go looking for a fight and flee if possible during a direct fight... even if he could win the fight.
This probably is more in regard to enemies of substance rather than those that have no real bearing on the overall flow of human endeavours.
E.g. mowing down a few orcs to inspire the regular soldiers to keep fighting is vastly different to Gandalf taking out the orc commanders and directly influencing the battle.
The Balrog of course being an exception.
I understand that Sauron was able to control those he gave the rings to, but was that only one way? Were any of those that wore one of the rings also left an some kind of impression or mark upon Sauron?
In peter jacksons films i think the staff shattering sceen was removed and only included in the extended versions released on dvd/blu ray etc but i might be wrong. My guess (if my memory is right and its the extended version) would be Jackson removed it as it didnt make a lot of sense but it was included in the extended version as it had already been finished via cgi etc before being cut.
Just imagine a Grey Knight from Warhammer 40k just outright curb stomping the witch king and then purging his soul
While they're definitely was no point in the books that the witch King greatly concerned Gandalf, I do think the extended scene from The Return of the King serves the purpose and illustrating to the audience that tolkien's world is not so cut and dry as, because this person is a Maia, he would win. In tolkien's world it is disparity the greatness is born from. A human can challenge a Maia just as a warg can challenge a person. I think the scene was trying to illustrate that the nature of something does not guarantee its outcome
The magic of middle earth is often misunderstood, it’s not as simple as Maia beats Man/elf, this isn’t dungeons and dragons (only example I could think of, forgive me if I’m wrong). It’s all relative. Evil can pierce you, and the virtuous can defeat the greatest evil. It’s a very complicated world.
true, proof of that is when Fingolfin hurt Morgoth multiple times, but in the end he lost. If we were talking about men, elves, dwarves it would be correct, but here we are talking about a Maia, simply they were in a different league, for once, they could not be killed. Only Gandalf's body was killed when he fought the balrog, his spirit could not be killed, same as Sauron's or Morgoth's. True that men and elves' souls also cannot be killed, but they can be in Arda without a body, the Ainur can.
It was the Witch King's electrifying personality.
Oh, Gandalf was not afraid at all. He stalled the Witch King, but the confrontation was interrupted because both of them had other matters to attend to. IIRC, Gandalf later lamented that Denethor's madness had interrupted him, because of all the extra harm that could be prevented if he had defeated the Witch King.
Gandalf defeated a Balrog when he was The Grey, before his rebirth as The White. He would have destroyed the Witch King.
The single most important thing that allowed Eowyn and Merry to kill the Witch King, is that he totally ignored Merry, but he had the perfect anti-nazgul weapon, as the book clearly states: "So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will".
No possible way Galdalf the White would lose to the Witch-King. He said himself that he was dangerous, more dangerous than Sauron himself unless maybe he had his ring and a physical form. A ring-wraith could not go toe to toe with Gandalf. A hobbit and a woman killed him. Gandalf knew this was his fate, and he needed to get to the Steward and prevent him from doing something so stupid. He knew fate would beat the Witch-King and he had to do nothing and he would still fall. Everyone forgets that the hobbit that helped kill him had an enchanted dagger specifically made to be capable of harming him. It was his fate to be killed by something or someone that was not a man. The Witch-King failed to read the prophecy correctly, and his faith in his flawed reading of that prophecy was his biggest weakness. He truly believed nothing could kill him, when it was only men he did not have to fear.
Hello, nice, thank you! For the Merry, Eowyn against Witch King. Merry had a blade from Tom Bombadil which had powers that enabled to penetrate the Witch King´s invulnerability, after which, Eowyn could kill him. It was not bypass of - ,,No Man can kill me, fool :-)"
He wasn't scared because he knew a halfling would kill him.
The book version of Gandalf was actually significantly stronger than the Witch King, more so by the time of Minas Tirith. Yes, the Witch King had the fear aura that every Nazgul actually had but some people through strength of will could resist it, such as the two who killed him. He was also significantly stronger than his ilk but that was because Sauron just plain gave him more, such as his necromancy used to summon the barrow wights centuries earlier. Gandalf as a Maiar was just inherently better than him, better than all Nazgul by far, and while it was probably a good fight even the whole nine of them had failed to stop him once.
Even in a game made much later by people who weren't Tolkien remained consistent in showing this. Shadow of War had the Witch King as basically the main enemy of Talion, and both being ring-powered men this was workable. Yet even there while Talion is able to temporarily win against him, he eventually is written as inevitably failing. They also have a balrog in the game named Tar Goroth who was very clearly depicted as far stronger than the Witch King and couldn't possibly be stopped without another force which helps you, in line with the fact that balrogs are also Maiar and would be on a different playing field to any man with a magic ring.
Good essay about the themes of the light and darkness in Middle Earth. But a maia (Gandalf) wouldn’t fear even the most powerful Nazgûl any more than he would fear a mosquito. Mosquitoes are annoying, but they stop being annoying if you swat them. Gandalf’s concern was all about the War in general. The films took a lot of liberties.
To defeat fear and death, you must become fear and death.
If the Nine Rings actually made their bearers immortal, that would mean Sauron could override the will of Eru himself. More like the rings delayed death but couldn’t keep it at bay forever.
I conclude this man is a witch king fanatic, 😂
Gandalf was an overwatch for the WitchKing especially in spiritual power.
The real question is why wasn't Gandalf more afraid of The Witch King.
I think a strong argument could be made that Gandalf the White if forced to fight Sauron in open battle without his ring would have the upper hand. This is based on Gandalf so easily break Saruman staff and in the movie was completely unphased by Sarumans fireball blasted from his staff. As the white he became leagues of magnitude more powerful than Saruman who before quite easily bested him. It would stand to reason that in his White form would dismiss a Balrog with a wave of his staff and likewise be on par with Sauron. Thoughts?
Gandalf realized the Witch King could kill him. He already died once by the Balrog. It hurt quite a bit to burn alive. But that's not what Gandalf feared. When he died he came back from grey to white. What comes after white? Clear. Gandalf did not want to be clear.
He loved smoking too much
And beer
He will come back as Magneto
As a mortal he was probably a great warrior king with a little evil
great thumb nail bro
Gandalf was never shocked in regards to the witch king, he fought all 9 wraiths from dusk to dawn to protect the hobbits. Peter Jackson did Gandalf so dirty in the movie. Because in reality Gandalf would kick the witch kings ass.
Gandolfin was the one that joined acuaman in the movies
Impressive presentation, thx
Your title is not a question, and should not have a question mark. It is the title of a proposed answer. Either switch the words “Gandalf” and “Was” or remove the question mark.
I think Gandalf is participating in all the events in Middle-earth by holding back as much as he can. When needed. My only complaint is that Galadriel in the movies is too powerful. She's an elf. Presented in movies as more powerful than Gandalf. The wisest of the Maiar, created by Ilúvatar before the Music of the Ainur.
The balrog had been sleeping under a mountain for thousands of years. Sauron had been massing and accumulating power since the beginning of time. Which of them is really stronger? The balrog wasn't gothmog.
Fantastic analysis and commentary. So incredibly relevant to our current time. Just one question: was any human involved in any part of this? AI generated visuals and narration: is the synopsis at least done by an organic being?
I highly doubt it
The narrative and the illustrations of Gandalf encounter with the witch king is second to none, but the only thing that I dislike was that the narrator repeats himself a number of times! Just an observation.
Once the king of the Elves, the Witch King was powerful already.
Sure. Gandalf had NO idea how powerful the WK was. He's just a Maia.
big difference between book and movie. In book, there were a few who could ride openly against the nine. Glorfindel being the greatest, was sent in the most direct possibility. The Witch King power to instill fear, was probably mostly against men, and not elves, hence the great elves could face them down, one against many, furthermore, most elves could elude them.
Gandalf of knew of Glorfindel's prognostication that WK would fall far - time and space, and not by the hand of man.
So, what was meant by man? a male of any species (men, elves, dwarfs) or men the second born of Illuvitar.
If the first, then Gandalf would not be the one to kill WK. If second, then he could.
i ahve niot read anything in the book that says Gandalf were shocked by the witch king, he knew the witch king and its abilities wery well. hestood firm when the gates of minastirith were shattered. He witstood teh presence of the witch king. in fact even as gandalf teh grey on Amon-Sül he fought the nine and he won too. the witch king on the other hand WAs shocked by Gandalf.
Beautiful illustrations, who made them?
Lol it's all just ai
Was Gandalf shocked by this Witch King? I did not notice this.
I upload another video on my channel about this subject
I think perhaps the intent behind Peter Jackson's representation of an "outmatched" Gandalf is not simply a matter of who's more powerful. Certainly Gandalf the White could make the witch King crawl on his belly if he chose to. But there is the prophecy for lack of a better term that "no man would be the end of the Witch king". Obviously Gandalf is "no man" as it were but that is what he appeared to be to others. So I guess that for him to challenge and destroy the witch King would be a Vulgar Display of Power that would have exposed him and been something of a blasphemy as that was never his way nor was it intended to be.
Wait, wasn't the witch king with all the ring wraiths that were casually chased off by waving a stick on fire? Hmmm, maybe not all that powerful then.
Gandalf and Shadowfax blocked the path and wasn’t scared of the witch king. Gandalf and a balrog are on the same level but nah that was only that one scene in the movie. He even fight them all off by himself on weathertop as well
Gandalf was a humble god. The witch king was an empowered enslaved man. There was no and is no contest. This is made up from Hollywood.
PeterJackson's scene was BS. In the book Gandalf alone stands his ground, no fear, as the Witch King enters Minas Tirith. All this in contrast to the fleeing soldiers of Gondor. It was just him and Shadowfax, confident and ready to throw hands.
Gandalf the White would bave wiped the floor with the Witchking had Rohan not arrived, and were he not distracted by Denethor's antics.
Ya, as is the case with all LOTR "baddies", he was defeated by plot armor and a heavy dose of bs.
despite other comments about if Gandalf was surprised by the Witch King, this video does a really good analysis of how power can take many forms and is I would hope how Tolkien intended to write it. Power is not just absolute domination.
While I love Peter Jackson's LoTR trilogy... I always felt he did not do the Witch king any justice. When I read Lotr many times throughout my life, there was one character that i felt was as powerful as anything wlking middle earth. I'd have loved to see a Witch King Gandalf battle. They were both of ancient powers and I'm not sure that during the 3rd age mortal men could even fathom those ancient powers. However, Gandalf was never afraid of the Witch King. Gandalf was more calculated than most want to admit, but Gandalf was never afraid. Sauron wasnt whole so in my view Gandalf was the strongest being walking middle earth. But the witch king was a bad bad dude for sure.
Gandalf would have kicked The Witch-Kings ass up and down Middle-Earth and then left his decapitated corpse lost in Angmar somewhere. 💪🏽🧙🏽♂💪🏽
The confrontation was NOT SHOCKING for Gandalf.... If the Balrog assaulted Minas Tirith the only thing that could have stopped him was Gandalf. The balrog was an order of magnitude more powerful than the Witch-king - and Gandalf the Grey defeated him. The Witch-king was stopped cold by Gandalf - now Gandalf the White and more powerful yet - and rode away. The movie's interpretation was incorrect. Just as its depiction of the dead spirits scouring the city was. Aragorn rescued the city with the men he led from the southern shores of Gondor - the dead were responsible for making the Corsairs of Umbar flee, leaving their very ships empty for Aragorn to take. With those ships, filled now with Gondor's soldiery, he sailed upstream and assailed the armies from the Anduin, while the riders of Rohan assailed them from the west. The corruption by Sauron of Denethor led to the circumstances that kept Gandalf from pursuing the Witch-King, as Gandalf had to choose between saving Faramir or saving those on the field from what the Witch-King might yet do.
The witch king is a horr__
Underscore
Underscore
Underscore
Underscore
Underscore
Underscore
😜😘
Keep up the good work. These are fun
The only thing in middle-earth comparable to Gandalf the White was Sauron.
The Witch-King ran from Glorfindel.
And yet he was easily defeated twice before his tangle with Merry and Eowyn.
The witch king feared Gandalf
I hate this scene in the trilogy...it is the only scene I feel this way about because PJ did Gandalf so dirty! It is almost the opposite in the book...No shattering of a staff...no falling back in fear
Gandalf wasn't shocked by the Witchking. The author of this video Hadd made certain assumptions that are not backed up by Tolkiens writing. We didn't get to see Gandalf fight the Witchking but it wouldn't have gone well for the Wotcjking if they had.
Didn't Galdof have Ratigast's staff. Not his own. I can't remember how that was written in the book.
The Witch King is a bltchKing when Gandalf outchea.😂😂😂
What happened to the Nazgûl after Sauron’s true and final defeat? Who is more powerful at their most powerful Sauron or Gandalf the white?
Thank for your input! We will make a video about this subject
@@RealmsRevealed-vt5mg awesome can’t wait for it
That's "biding his time", not "biting", my naughty robot voiced friend.
This entire thing is predicated on somethat that isnt even canonically correct. The witch king did confront gandalf at minas tirith. Gandalf essentially told him to fuck off and that he cant come in. And that was that.
Insult to both Gandalf and Shadowfax!
Mary really. Its Merry. Meriadoc BrandyBuck. A halfling responsible for the direct downfall of the Witch King no less! Well, half of the downfall. The other half being the shield maiden of Rohan Eowyn!
He was not...... that was a Movie aberration.... none of that happened in the books.... Gandalf was a Maiar, like Sauron was..... they were above any pathetic human spook, no matter how dark and scary......
Sorry. Appreciate all your effort and time in this video, but you missed the big point, it’s not about power at all, power corrupts absolutely. Read the book as to what happens after the Witch King’s threat; I shall paraphrase for the most part here, but Gandalf sits still on Shadowfax and in a courtyard far away in the city a cock crowed. The text says, “Shrill and clear he crowed, recking nothing of wizardry or war….” The horns or Rohan sound and the Witch King’s prophecy almost becomes a self-fulfilling one, as Eowyn and Merry put an end to him. It’s not power that crushes evil, and give me a little slack for borrowing from Jackson’s best moments here, it’s the belief that, “There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is a very comforting thought.” Gandalf knows things will work out for the side of Light, and he’s played his part. He knows it’s not his task to kill the Lord of Angmar, and Providence, if you will, is on his side.
Whether in the book or any adaptation or LOTR, I think it is a ridiculous plot point that Gandalf the White, an Angel incarnate, a servant of and wielder of the sacred fire of creation, and the most powerful force of good in Middle Earth could not necessarily defeat the Witch King of Angmar, but two mortal beings, Eowyn and Merry could.
Did Gandalf beat the balrog that killed him?
Power levels don't really work in Arda. Hobbits defeating dragons and, er the witch king etc.
Keeping your word, oath and honour are powers. Fear and deception are countered with courage and truth. Darkness with light. Saurons "power" was his ability to deceive & corrupt on a mass scale. Gandalfs was to inspire courage in others. He was a perfect counter - the Witch King was irrelevant
Please stop the captions on screen. Spoiling your fantastic content
Thanks for your feedback! W’II change it
@@RealmsRevealed-vt5mg 🙏❤️
Moses/Gandolf connection possibly? You shall not pass. The red sea. I can see it
I completely disagree with this but I'm no expert. Gandalf would have wiped the floor with this guy I mean it wouldn't even have been close. The which king could not have even beaten that ballrog. Not to mention gandolf had a ring of power. I would go as far as to say gandalf was probably 50% stronger than the Rich King.
Yeah this video is very movie based. As Gtw even power blocked and not allowed to unleash any of his real power vs the WK was never a threat to Gtw and in the books it was very much Gtw saying don't try it or I'll slap you & wk didn't even try . You also missed Gtg beat the balrog which anyone whos read the older books its considered stronger than Sauron soo a Wk even empowered by Sauron which is same lvl as Gandalf & Balrog wouldn't have come close.
Much of what is said about Gandalf here is conjecture with no basis in the books and, in some cases, contradictory to what was written.
This is the biggest error in the movies which l generally love. It grates on me every time l watch them. Gandalf the White was second only in power to Sauron in my view
The (witch)no man cAN ,DUDE (witch) king are you, Im the male king ...
how can you live for thousands of years and still tryna fix other peoples problems, why is he not a drunk?
Cause he prefers to toke the Hobbits leaf.
a male elf could have taken him out....