Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. Some of the eldar had great insight. I wonder if Galadriel had know Olorin (Gandalf) in the West when she was younger.
Totally agree 💯👏👍i knew 2 bk then that he was a evil old cow in the fellowship of the rings...when gandalf approached him at his tower...but i read the book,thats how i figured about saruman
Galadriel did not trust him the moment he came back from the east and he would not speak of his deeds to anyone after he returned around 2300TA, I always thought he killed the blue wizards, but I also always thought Gollum killed Frodos parents, which is one of the reasons Bilbo took him in, witnesses saw a struggle^^
Yet another brilliant, stirring and deeply insightful post! These are exceptionally good. One thing, though, there was another who perceived Saruman had changed and darkened. That was Treebeard. Though when exactly is not said, Treebeard realized Saruman was no longer a friend and had become a dangerous and destructive neighbour. Although Treebeard also doesn't say that he perceived Saruman had become infected with Sauronitis, he knew where evil in Middle Earth was emanating from. And yet, none of the Wise bothered to ask what he thought.
Radagast I would have picked to have suspected as he didn't need to check back on Gandalf but he did and resulted in Gandalf's rescue which was pivotal and Saruman was blindsided.
The book explains what happened with Radagast. He was NOT on Saruman's side. In fact, he was used by Saurman to lure Gandalf into a trap, but the trick ended up unknowingly backfiriing on Saurman. Saurman said that Radagast was just fool enough to go along with it and think Saurman was meaning well. However, Radagast also told one of the eagles to go meet with Saurman and Gandalf at Isengard or something, and that's actually how Gandalf got out of Isengard.
Another one which might have foreseen some trouble about Saruman trust-loyalty helping against Sauron, was also Galadriel who actually wanted Gandalf being the leader of the White Council pretty much the same way of words making him resentfull and got envy about the trust gifted to him as Varda also kinda foretold that he wasn´t gonna be the third in relevance when the Istari got selected and arranged in a way to Saruman go first place, one Blue Wizard on second place and Gandalf on third, though he was able to act alone as both Saruman and the Blue Wizard got some secondary companions yet interacted differently regarding them as Saruman was very at odds with Radagast, whereas the two Blue Wizards got very fine together [one choose the other willingly to help him alongside as they seem to have acted always before].
I think the council had an inkling about Saruman's treachery but they just swept it under the rug because they wanna be real certain about it and that they all could afford time as they are basically immortal. On the other hand, Aragorn, albeit him having a longer life than most humans is still mortal and could not afford to take things slow. Plus, he's kingly, wise, steadfast, courageous and discerning and wouldn't let what he saw or experience go by...
Exactly! Gandalf likely saw Saruman’s arrogance and dismissiveness as typical behavior for someone consumed by pride. It wasn’t until Saruman revealed his true intentions and imprisoned him at Orthanc that Gandalf fully understood the depth of his betrayal.
Gandalf did have a gut feeling about Saruman. In “The Shadow of the Past”, early on in his convo with Frodo, Gandalf says he might have asked Saruman about Bilbo’s ring, “but something always held me back.”
This is excellent, and a delight! So nice to see theories immediately backed by quotes. Also, it is extremely well put together. You have an easy flow of words, ideas and artwork with music behind. Thank you so much. I am now a subscriber and look forward eagerly to more of your good work. Incidentally, I don't know where you got this voice, but it's perfect!
The sad part is that Gandalf and Saruman wanted to be like one another but never showed it. Saruman admired Gandalf's ability to befriend others and even started smoking pipe weed in secret, to emulate him. Meanwhile, Gandalf saw Saruman as the wiser man, with a gift for public speaking, and would refuse leadership of the White Council because he thought Saruman was the better choice. Gandalf didn't know that Saruman wanted to be like him, and Saruman didn't realize that Gandalf would have never tried to take his leadership role. Paranoid over nothing.
Listening to those two converse - Gandalf and Saruman - after both are properly drunk would have been hilarious! Imagine the jokes and limericks and rhymes "I've seen Lindon, and the Shire, and Galadriel's bras aren't underwire!"
I don't want to rebuke you too harshly, because Tolkien himself was open for reader's freedom of interpretation, but lorewise, what you say is completely unfounded. The only one with penchant for emulating other is Saruman, and that stems from degradation of his character. Throughout all of his shared history with Gandalf, he is haughty and overbearing. Even with the smoking pipe, he publicly regarded Gandalf with mockery while privately trying it, and eventually getting addicted to the smoke. The only one that Saruman really emulates, intentionally or not, is Sauron.
@@ivandovranic5834 Fair enough. His foray into ringcraft is a much bigger example. Right, and the Uruk-hai. I don't know if he knew about the original version or if he just stumbled upon it trying to reduce their weaknesses.
Mairon and Curumo were both Maiar of Aulë. Both studied ringcraft together. But who suspected Saruman would go rogue and take Sauron's side? I am going to say Eru Iluvatar knew that before everyone else.
Aragorn did not know that Saruman was becoming evil. There is no text stating that. He more so counseled Ecthelion the trust in Gandalf most likely because of Gandalfs propensity for action against an obviously growing darkness. Whereas Saruman seemed to always stall and take no action. Aragorn and Gandalf were great friends and there is no way in hell Aragorn wouldn’t have shared some secret inside knowledge of noticeable darkness within him. The entirety of the white council didn’t see the evil, only delay. Galadriel was said to be the most perceptive being in middle earth, able to perceive the hearts and minds of anyone. No way Aragorn picked it up before her. Nobody knew. That’s the whole point. It was shocking and unprecedented
Hi thanks for the comment! Obviously I disagree 😂 Aragorn was so sure that Saruman was not to be trusted that he warned the man who was ruling his kingdom for him not to trust the Maia (akin to an angel) who was sent by the Valar to help them. He would not risk Gondor's fate unless he was absolutely sure. That's strong evidence from the text that he perceived of Sarumans future treachery. Galadriel on the other hand was happy to appoint Saruman as head of the white council, after Gandalf refused, and to follow Sarumans lead when deciding what to do about Sauron and the ring. And we know from the fact that she openly rejected Annatar that she isn't shy about letting it be known when she percieves that one who claims to be sent by the Valar isn't to be trusted. She did not do this with Saruman. Perhaps it was the power of Sarumans voice that even she could not resist?
@ hey thanks for the response! And I totally understand your point. I’m merely stating that while Aragorn may have counseled against Saruman for whatever reasons, I highly doubt he perceived his future fall into evil. He may have feared delay and inaction rather than evil intentions and I don’t find anything in the text that directly suggests that he did. Especially given how many other far wiser beings didn’t sense the evil in Saruman, Though they may have disagreed with him. I also don’t believe the voice of Saruman was potent enough to persuade the whole white council when it wasn’t enough to persuade Theoden in Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Aragorn wouldn’t have taken direct action in a larger way against Saruman if he perceived such evil.
It could ge argued Aule and his maiar are more susceptible to corruption than others. Aule if I recall made the dwarves without Eru's leave or knowledge until he was finished. Most of the Balrogs were corrupted fire spirits and most of those would be in Aule's sphere of influence (Yavanna and Ulmo probably had 0 of them). Saruman was of Aule's group and it seemed he fell between the Fall of Numenor and his entry onto middle earth. Cirdan, the oldest of the middle earthen elves before elves made it to Aman saw this being as unworthy of a ring of power so he saw some flaw or corruption before Saruman got to the east. Galadriel saw something as well when she put Gandalfs name in the ring as leader of the white council.
That's a great analysis. I'm just wondering though, why Aragorn wouldn't have shared his suspicions with Gandalf. "Yo, G! Dude's evil!" Might have been good to tip him off.
I think why Aragorn distrusted Saruman is pretty simple. Aragorn was a born king. He was to his core a leader worthy of uniting the land. And being a good judge of character part of that. I think he didn't have a prophecy about Saruman so much as he saw clearly the nature of Saruman's desires. That Saruman wished to be a ruler, a leader...but didn't have the talent for it. So understood Saruman could fall to the same temptation others like him have. Not that Saruman had already but that Saruman was flawed in a way that could make him a threat. It was just a king's caution to not trust a bad leader.
I have to laugh at the thought that people study Tolkien like the Bible and reconstruct events in a similar way. And most that do this with Tolkien, a devout Catholic, are atheist’s and think the Bible is myth. But study the myth created just 100 years ago. Just ironic
when making adaptations or story telling, i have no problem unless people don't stick to the original Tolkien lore, like rings of power. thanks for this and sticking to original Tolkien lore.
From what I know....Rings of power IS NOT TOLKIEN! The studio does not have the rights from the Tolkien family to use any of his works so they have made some Hollyweird abomination and boy does it show! I don't watch any of the crap they put out.
@ravenhill_of_yore_1968 aaah... Lol. Ok. Makes sense. With the disrespectful junk on TV and watching this video makes me remember.... I'm still on edge waiting to see if Viggo accepts the role for the new Search for Gollum movie. I don't see how they can do it without him. Using someone else would just kinda ruin it for me. Anyway... Happy new year!
@Edge-of-Reason well he broke lore for a purpose. He broke it in places that he really had to because what was in the books couldn't be translated to movie without throwing off pacing or having to extend what was already 3 very long movies into even more. I watch a channel that does nothing but compare the differences between Tolkiens writing and the trilogy, and so far I've had no problem and understand why he did what he did. Not everything in books can just be swapped over to film. That's why they have to be adapted and rewritten. So far I've not seen anything Jackson did that was just done because he felt like doing it. He's always had a purpose.... Netflix on the other hand won't pay for the rights and so almost everything they do is bullshit. Big difference between the 2 and not comparable.
It's very early morning and I have some preparations to make before I go to work, so I'll refrain from commenting in any detail. But I want to say, however pleasantly l was surprised by the content of the video, I was very nearly thrown off by its title. Someone who *"knows all along"* about matters of such gravity, doesn't constrain himself to a cryptic warning delivered to a lord he happens to follow at the time, but shares his concerns with persons of influence he is in highest confidence with, namely Elrond and Gandalf. I still enjoy a video, and I plan on commenting more at some later point, but the title was kind of misleading. I suggest a touch more care when working the algorithm in future. Regards 🌄
Cirdan trusted Gandalf more than he did Saruman from the beginning, hence giving him a ring of power.
This act angered saruman greatly. And set him on a downward spiral of jealousy and betrayal.
Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. Some of the eldar had great insight.
I wonder if Galadriel had know Olorin (Gandalf) in the West when she was younger.
@@ArionXeno That's entirely possible, though Gandalf must have looked pretty different as Olórin back then.
Totally agree 💯👏👍i knew 2 bk then that he was a evil old cow in the fellowship of the rings...when gandalf approached him at his tower...but i read the book,thats how i figured about saruman
Galadriel did not trust him the moment he came back from the east and he would not speak of his deeds to anyone after he returned around 2300TA, I always thought he killed the blue wizards, but I also always thought Gollum killed Frodos parents, which is one of the reasons Bilbo took him in, witnesses saw a struggle^^
Yet another brilliant, stirring and deeply insightful post! These are exceptionally good. One thing, though, there was another who perceived Saruman had changed and darkened. That was Treebeard. Though when exactly is not said, Treebeard realized Saruman was no longer a friend and had become a dangerous and destructive neighbour. Although Treebeard also doesn't say that he perceived Saruman had become infected with Sauronitis, he knew where evil in Middle Earth was emanating from. And yet, none of the Wise bothered to ask what he thought.
Radagast I would have picked to have suspected as he didn't need to check back on Gandalf but he did and resulted in Gandalf's rescue which was pivotal and Saruman was blindsided.
Gandalf asked Radagast to send any important news to him at Isengard.
I totality think Radagast knew about Sarumans turn before Gandalf did. The nature he was tuned into would have told him.
The book explains what happened with Radagast. He was NOT on Saruman's side. In fact, he was used by Saurman to lure Gandalf into a trap, but the trick ended up unknowingly backfiriing on Saurman. Saurman said that Radagast was just fool enough to go along with it and think Saurman was meaning well. However, Radagast also told one of the eagles to go meet with Saurman and Gandalf at Isengard or something, and that's actually how Gandalf got out of Isengard.
Cirdan saw something that wasn't completely right when he chose Gandalf rather than Saruman to wield Narya.
More pointedly, he not only gave Narya to Gandalf instead of Saruman, he TOLD GANDALF TO TELL NO ONE HE HAD NARYA, NOT EVEN SARUMAN.
Another one which might have foreseen some trouble about Saruman trust-loyalty helping against Sauron, was also Galadriel who actually wanted Gandalf being the leader of the White Council pretty much the same way of words making him resentfull and got envy about the trust gifted to him as Varda also kinda foretold that he wasn´t gonna be the third in relevance when the Istari got selected and arranged in a way to Saruman go first place, one Blue Wizard on second place and Gandalf on third, though he was able to act alone as both Saruman and the Blue Wizard got some secondary companions yet interacted differently regarding them as Saruman was very at odds with Radagast, whereas the two Blue Wizards got very fine together [one choose the other willingly to help him alongside as they seem to have acted always before].
I think the council had an inkling about Saruman's treachery but they just swept it under the rug because they wanna be real certain about it and that they all could afford time as they are basically immortal. On the other hand, Aragorn, albeit him having a longer life than most humans is still mortal and could not afford to take things slow. Plus, he's kingly, wise, steadfast, courageous and discerning and wouldn't let what he saw or experience go by...
Gandalf might have thought Saruman was just being a jerk, right up till the time he was imprisoned at Orthanc.
Exactly! Gandalf likely saw Saruman’s arrogance and dismissiveness as typical behavior for someone consumed by pride. It wasn’t until Saruman revealed his true intentions and imprisoned him at Orthanc that Gandalf fully understood the depth of his betrayal.
Gandalf did have a gut feeling about Saruman. In “The Shadow of the Past”, early on in his convo with Frodo, Gandalf says he might have asked Saruman about Bilbo’s ring, “but something always held me back.”
This is excellent, and a delight! So nice to see theories immediately backed by quotes. Also, it is extremely well put together. You have an easy flow of words, ideas and artwork with music behind. Thank you so much.
I am now a subscriber and look forward eagerly to more of your good work.
Incidentally, I don't know where you got this voice, but it's perfect!
The valar need to launch a investigation into Aulë and all of his maiar
Another great episode. Saruman's story is truly tragic.
The sad part is that Gandalf and Saruman wanted to be like one another but never showed it.
Saruman admired Gandalf's ability to befriend others and even started smoking pipe weed in secret, to emulate him.
Meanwhile, Gandalf saw Saruman as the wiser man, with a gift for public speaking, and would refuse leadership of the White Council because he thought Saruman was the better choice.
Gandalf didn't know that Saruman wanted to be like him, and Saruman didn't realize that Gandalf would have never tried to take his leadership role. Paranoid over nothing.
Listening to those two converse - Gandalf and Saruman - after both are properly drunk would have been hilarious! Imagine the jokes and limericks and rhymes "I've seen Lindon, and the Shire, and Galadriel's bras aren't underwire!"
I don't want to rebuke you too harshly, because Tolkien himself was open for reader's freedom of interpretation, but lorewise, what you say is completely unfounded.
The only one with penchant for emulating other is Saruman, and that stems from degradation of his character. Throughout all of his shared history with Gandalf, he is haughty and overbearing. Even with the smoking pipe, he publicly regarded Gandalf with mockery while privately trying it, and eventually getting addicted to the smoke.
The only one that Saruman really emulates, intentionally or not, is Sauron.
@@ivandovranic5834 Fair enough. His foray into ringcraft is a much bigger example.
Right, and the Uruk-hai. I don't know if he knew about the original version or if he just stumbled upon it trying to reduce their weaknesses.
I would not be shocked if some of the elves knew he had turned evil.Tombonbatile is another one I wouldn't be shocked if he knew as well.
Congratulations for your effort! Best regards
This is now THE best channel for lore on the net. Brilliant.
We greatly appreciate your work and toil to give us this gold, keep em coming good sir
Very well done!
Mairon and Curumo were both Maiar of Aulë. Both studied ringcraft together.
But who suspected Saruman would go rogue and take Sauron's side?
I am going to say Eru Iluvatar knew that before everyone else.
Technically, Eru would have designed his world so that Saruman would fall, taking the ever-present dissonance of Melkor and weaving beauty from it.
Aragorn did not know that Saruman was becoming evil. There is no text stating that. He more so counseled Ecthelion the trust in Gandalf most likely because of Gandalfs propensity for action against an obviously growing darkness. Whereas Saruman seemed to always stall and take no action. Aragorn and Gandalf were great friends and there is no way in hell Aragorn wouldn’t have shared some secret inside knowledge of noticeable darkness within him. The entirety of the white council didn’t see the evil, only delay. Galadriel was said to be the most perceptive being in middle earth, able to perceive the hearts and minds of anyone. No way Aragorn picked it up before her. Nobody knew. That’s the whole point. It was shocking and unprecedented
Hi thanks for the comment! Obviously I disagree 😂 Aragorn was so sure that Saruman was not to be trusted that he warned the man who was ruling his kingdom for him not to trust the Maia (akin to an angel) who was sent by the Valar to help them. He would not risk Gondor's fate unless he was absolutely sure. That's strong evidence from the text that he perceived of Sarumans future treachery. Galadriel on the other hand was happy to appoint Saruman as head of the white council, after Gandalf refused, and to follow Sarumans lead when deciding what to do about Sauron and the ring. And we know from the fact that she openly rejected Annatar that she isn't shy about letting it be known when she percieves that one who claims to be sent by the Valar isn't to be trusted. She did not do this with Saruman. Perhaps it was the power of Sarumans voice that even she could not resist?
@ hey thanks for the response! And I totally understand your point. I’m merely stating that while Aragorn may have counseled against Saruman for whatever reasons, I highly doubt he perceived his future fall into evil. He may have feared delay and inaction rather than evil intentions and I don’t find anything in the text that directly suggests that he did. Especially given how many other far wiser beings didn’t sense the evil in Saruman, Though they may have disagreed with him. I also don’t believe the voice of Saruman was potent enough to persuade the whole white council when it wasn’t enough to persuade Theoden in Isengard. I find it hard to believe that Aragorn wouldn’t have taken direct action in a larger way against Saruman if he perceived such evil.
My first thought was Cirdan, the shipright.
Great! You are truly a Saruman expert
“I knew it was you, all along, -Fredo- Saruman”
It could ge argued Aule and his maiar are more susceptible to corruption than others. Aule if I recall made the dwarves without Eru's leave or knowledge until he was finished. Most of the Balrogs were corrupted fire spirits and most of those would be in Aule's sphere of influence (Yavanna and Ulmo probably had 0 of them). Saruman was of Aule's group and it seemed he fell between the Fall of Numenor and his entry onto middle earth. Cirdan, the oldest of the middle earthen elves before elves made it to Aman saw this being as unworthy of a ring of power so he saw some flaw or corruption before Saruman got to the east. Galadriel saw something as well when she put Gandalfs name in the ring as leader of the white council.
That's a great analysis. I'm just wondering though, why Aragorn wouldn't have shared his suspicions with Gandalf. "Yo, G! Dude's evil!" Might have been good to tip him off.
Clicked and subscribed. Thanks for the video.
I was the first one to figure it out. Once i saw Christopher Lee, i was like "oh that dude is up to no good." I saw that opening weekend guys. I'm 42.
Hello from Japan 🇯🇵
Well done! I thoroughly enjoyed this video. SUBBED!
Great job very good video🎉🎉🎉
I think why Aragorn distrusted Saruman is pretty simple. Aragorn was a born king. He was to his core a leader worthy of uniting the land. And being a good judge of character part of that. I think he didn't have a prophecy about Saruman so much as he saw clearly the nature of Saruman's desires. That Saruman wished to be a ruler, a leader...but didn't have the talent for it. So understood Saruman could fall to the same temptation others like him have. Not that Saruman had already but that Saruman was flawed in a way that could make him a threat. It was just a king's caution to not trust a bad leader.
Precisely why I act on instinct.
Very surprised Lord Elrond and Galadriel couldn't see it...but maybe he put on a better show because of that.
Duh, of course Círdan knew…he looked into the farseeing master Palintir and saw Mithrandir returning to Varda.
I was thinking of Denethor as well, as he did not trust any of the Istari.
Thing is, saruman was not evil all along, he was corruptable, big difference!
Thanks!
Thanks for supporting the channel it's very kind of you! 🙂
I've just watched the introduction: Cirdan.
I don't think he knows about Círdan, Pip.
Sauron, next question
Who is the artist of the image at 19:10 ? 22:25 ? Whoever is making the vids...kudos on the artwork.
I have to laugh at the thought that people study Tolkien like the Bible and reconstruct events in a similar way. And most that do this with Tolkien, a devout Catholic, are atheist’s and think the Bible is myth. But study the myth created just 100 years ago. Just ironic
Good vid
As bad as Saruman messed up he still did better than Sauron and Melkor.
The Weaver of Evil, forseen.
Amazing again xxx
when making adaptations or story telling, i have no problem unless people don't stick to the original Tolkien lore, like rings of power.
thanks for this and sticking to original Tolkien lore.
From what I know....Rings of power IS NOT TOLKIEN! The studio does not have the rights from the Tolkien family to use any of his works so they have made some Hollyweird abomination and boy does it show! I don't watch any of the crap they put out.
@@WILLNOTCOMPLY72 it was a typo mistake, i meant rings of power is nothing to do with Tolkien lore.
@ravenhill_of_yore_1968 aaah... Lol. Ok. Makes sense. With the disrespectful junk on TV and watching this video makes me remember.... I'm still on edge waiting to see if Viggo accepts the role for the new Search for Gollum movie. I don't see how they can do it without him. Using someone else would just kinda ruin it for me. Anyway... Happy new year!
Jackson was just as guilty as Amazon of breaking lore. It's just because the movies are the first introduction for the majority that it is overlooked.
@Edge-of-Reason well he broke lore for a purpose. He broke it in places that he really had to because what was in the books couldn't be translated to movie without throwing off pacing or having to extend what was already 3 very long movies into even more. I watch a channel that does nothing but compare the differences between Tolkiens writing and the trilogy, and so far I've had no problem and understand why he did what he did. Not everything in books can just be swapped over to film. That's why they have to be adapted and rewritten. So far I've not seen anything Jackson did that was just done because he felt like doing it. He's always had a purpose.... Netflix on the other hand won't pay for the rights and so almost everything they do is bullshit. Big difference between the 2 and not comparable.
It's very early morning and I have some preparations to make before I go to work, so I'll refrain from commenting in any detail. But I want to say, however pleasantly l was surprised by the content of the video, I was very nearly thrown off by its title.
Someone who *"knows all along"* about matters of such gravity, doesn't constrain himself to a cryptic warning delivered to a lord he happens to follow at the time, but shares his concerns with persons of influence he is in highest confidence with, namely Elrond and Gandalf.
I still enjoy a video, and I plan on commenting more at some later point, but the title was kind of misleading. I suggest a touch more care when working the algorithm in future. Regards 🌄
Trump is saruman... lol😂
👋👋👋👋
Eru.