It will sell, but not because it's good, but simply because of your influence over your viewers. It definitely doesn't look like domino competitor. Like a bicyle is not a competitor to motorcycle.
Harley Davidson has a pretty loyal following, or “influence over” their customers as you put it. But I’m pretty sure they can’t sell bikes as motorcycles just like my audience wouldn’t buy a sub-par concept from me.
@@AndrewKleinWW whatever you're doing with this tool - continue. In my opinion there's limited market for it. But you'll make money nonetheless from it. You have quite the following and so the marketing part of it is halfway done
@@laius6047 In what way is your analogy fitting? It's more like buying a rolling chassis instead of a turn-key racecar (though much more plug-and-play than that even), and that's very common in many racing series, for many of the same reasons this is a product the market needs. I've never seen this channel before, but I'm here because I'm not interested in spending $1500 on a Festool product (yet again, I've already got half a dozen) to get locked into an ecosystem when a dowel is the obvious efficient solution. Problem is, jigs are slower and more fiddly, biscuits are weak for my purposes, and dominoes are an unnecessary speacialized consumable. The few doweling joiners that have ever existed are basically extinct (and even Freud's didn't seem to be great.) Something like this with 95% of the benefits of a power joiner at a fraction of the cost, and all the flexibility of a jig (in many senses: small to store, works with any sufficient drill motor, not a major financial commitment), simply doesn't exist in the market. The devil's in the details of execution, but suffice to say, if this was available today I'd be compulsively refreshing the UPS tracking history instead of writing this comment right now. All you have to concede is that 1) dominoes or dowels are superior to biscuits in many applications, and B) plenty of people can't or don't want to pay for the Fesley-Toolidson $30,000 bagger, and there is your not-small market. A niche tool, sure, but hardly restricted to the guy's Patreon pool.
One major thing is that the domino has adjustments from tight-fitting to loose-fitting which is nice when you need a little wiggle room. If it can do that, I would gladly pay $450 for this
Love this idea. Changing bit sizes will be key, think about the range of joints the small Domino can do with 4mm to 10mm tenons. I know it would be difficult, but changing distance from outside bits to center would be good too, or offer different heads, thinking about smaller stock where 3 dowels won't fit. Could also remove one of the outside bits to work with smaller pieces. Fence registration into the face of a board or ply is a big pain with the domino out of the box, so jigs or helpers on yours would be great since you won't be supplying the motor and can focus on the parts that really improve user experience. I usually make jigs and fixtures when using the domino on the face of boards to keep it repeatable. Also key would be more depth travel on the fence. Think of putting 2 or 3 rows of dowels on thick stock like 2.5" while being able to use the same reference face and not flip the piece over and risk errors.
I 100% agree. The Domino isn't perfect, but it's versatile. 4mm-10mm dominos. It also has the ability to cut wider holes which makes alignment easier. There is DEFINITELY a market for a less expensive alternative and Andy is the right guy for the job.
This looks promising for sure man! One of the things that strikes me about the utility of the Domino is usefulness of the fence system. With multiple positive stops, reference marks and sight lines machine presents a system for reducing measuring and the time it takes to not only cut the mortises. In my mind a “serious competitor” would need those same features to get me to switch. I guess what I’m trying to say (again just my opinion and I’m certainly no pro! 😆) is that it’s more about the system as a whole than simply the ability to cut mortises quickly. In any case, love your stuff and look forward to seeing what you come up with in the end! You are spot on about the Domino needing a serious competitor and I have no doubt you’re the one to do it! 👍🏼
This is really exciting and I think marketing it as a domino competitor is a fantastic idea - you don't need to waste precious seconds explaining what it does. 95% of your market will already know it's place in their shop. I love the prototype and I can't even imagine what improvements you will make in the final version. Here's a few non-obvious pain-points about our domino where I think your tool provides a better solution: 1. It has a tendency to walk away. It's not too bad, but it's enough to make me second-guess the mortises. I think your cork rubber (if that's what I saw on the faceplate) would be a great solution. Also the brad pointed drill bit in the center helps! 2. The domino takes some getting used to. I think your tool will feel more comfortable (using the owner's own drill), be lighter, and familiar. Employees wouldn't need as much training to learn bit/tenon sizes, depth adjustments, etc. If they've drilled a pilot hole, they can use your tool! 3. Forgetting to change a critical setting on the domino can leave you with sub-par joints. If you change domino size, you have to adjust like 3 settings on the tool in addition to the bit. Forgetting or missing the index on just one setting can really mess things up. Your tool would just have a depth stop - that's much easier! Hope this helps! -Davis
@@AndrewKleinWW probably not if you're going for a very good product, I agree! Also solving the "expnesive domino problem" is a very nobel and much needed thing to do :) I was just saying though and hopefuly giving you feedback, I personaly would invest another 500-600 bucks and get the real deal if your product costs $350
I would say it depends if you're only targeting professionals that will put a high value to the benefits for speed and ease of use to maximize their productivity. Otherwise, IMO, it would be a hard sell for hobbyists when there are cheaper options like the Rockler Beadlock® Pro Joinery Kit... While other products like a Dowel Max may still be competitive with its greater versatility, despite being slower and harder to use...
Isn’t one feature of the Domino that the dowels can move left to right? With dowels, the spacing needs to be perfect otherwise you cannot join two workpieces.
Exactly. This was and always will be the problem with any doweling system. Move just a bit...and mis-alignment. The domino has 2 setting to make the slot wider. I always try and avoid using the wobble out setting if I need racking strength.
This was the brilliance of the domino concept, because the domino fixing has flat edges it can move side to side slightly but still have plenty of contact area for glue. If a dowel is put into a slot it only has two tiny contact points and therefore forms a weak joint.
The thing about the dual dowelers is the spacing is 1 1/4" on center. If you set it up the same as a biscuit jointer, the dowels would be perfect every time. The thing about biscuit jointer is they are made more for the ability to align the pieces - it really adds no strength. Dowels do. Wiggle room takes away accuracy.
Couple of thoughts. Firstly, In my mind, the inherent advantage of using 3 dowels would be anti racking. Putting all 3 in the same line doesn't help that at all. Gives you strength only in one way. Off-setting the one in the middle would give an incredible amount of strength if that is at all possible. If its not, then I would question why even do the third. Especially if it adds that much to the cost with gears etc, make the machine more compact and just have two and be done with it. It is quicker and far cheaper to just drill two and move on to the next position and do 2 more holes. As far as price goes, the issues with the Triton are quality based, with a few simple design tweaks needed and it regularly sells for below 200. That is where this tool would sing. Selling it for 300 and over, I just don't see the benefit compared to other tools and jigs out there that are more versatile. I think its a great idea, but at the end of the day, you are making a biscuit joiner with 3 drill bits and a gearbox. If companies can make a reasonable biscuit joiner for 100$, which has the motor, and the fence, and make money, it seems there is a way to add drill bits and a gear box and get it for 200. Given your affinity for Grizzly tools, which I am a fan of as well, I would reach out to them. This is what he specializes in. He can reach out to the factory that makes the existing tools, get the design tweaked to your specs, slap a new brand on it and ship it. No need to reinvent the wheel, when all you really want to do is make the Triton accurate and repeatable. Your video shows that can be done. I love the idea and ingenuity shown, just feel like your trajectory is a bit off. This is over complicated for what you have stated you needed, and less convenient while being potentially expensive than a subpar competitor its made to beat.
Jeff Krayenvenger I like the concept, but practically, I think by offsetting the dowels you would be required to make them smaller so they are not too close to the surface, at that point you'd be better off to just have larger dowels, centered (in my opinion) if we were talking about thick stock I think your idea has merit but typically this tool, (or the domino) are going to be used with 3/4 inch stock, maybe 4/4, for at least one of the 2 pieces being joined.
Aloha Andrew, Good prototyping. I had fewer tools to do mine when I was needed to keep a shop going for a contractor on 'Base Housing'. I've always shied away from Domino's since they were pricy and seemed just too beyond the needs of a general woodworker. Even 'Biscuits' have their limits. If I wasn't disabled now, with all the 'Whiz Bang' of CNC and CAD-based tools, I'd use a gear set-up that allows you to pivot your drills spacing, using 'idler gears' to vary the spacing yet maintain the same rotation. I really like your prototype, hope to see more of it as you work out its design. A lot of my accessories later were later thought of and picked up by toolmakers. I've been out of action now for about 8 years. Vertigo 24/7 makes me not feel safe enough around 'man-eating shop tools. Rehab sent me back to Collage and I did well with today's CAD Classes, but I'm still too slow to be productive as I was before. I was into CAD just as digital was becoming available to common P/C's. I'd do more today 'if'... but vertigo and loss of pay have taken its toll on too many things in my life. Keep working out your ideas and learn from your mistakes, they are truly the best things to learn. Aloha, Mark Baker
P.S. don't let comments steer you away from your ideas, work your ideas into working models as you did with your prototype. Don't let the 'apples to oranges' simplicity comparison get any traction. Dowels can be made cheaply or be brought cheaply, much cheaper than baskets or Dominoes of any size.
The Triton might not be perfect out the box, but with some work its a good tool for the money at only $200. To try and sell this at $350 without a motor seem foolish. The idea off using a drill to power it only has one real advantage ease of manufacturing for you. But has plenty of disadvantages, the fact you need two hands to operate it because there's no attachment between the drill and fence , makes the tool unbalanced, and makes the tool longer than the competition. If you could make it permanently mountable to a popular $40 angel grinder that people could buy off Amazon and attach them self would be very cool. Save on shipping and manufacturing for you with the body and motor and makes it a much more direct competitor to mafell and festool.
I agree that the separation of the motor introduces sort of a pivot point that you need to focus on keeping straight, where an integrated motor/ handle gives you leverage on the tool
Thomas Doherty I have to agree if it was a standard grinder speed. I'm guessing maybe there is a gearbox in the head of the grinder that gets the wheel to that 20,000 RPM range and turns the rotation of the motor 90 degrees. I would imagine the triton either has a gearbox or an electric motor designed for a specific drive speed.
I'm really interested in this. I remember you talking about the other day when we spoke at Workbench Con. I have a Domino, but I'm still interested because dowel stock is much easier to make/buy and much cheaper than the proprietary dominos. Plus, as you said, any drill can be used with this. Not a special machine. Keep going with it!
This shows a lot of promise. It's in the sweet spot between a Domino and the BeadLock nightmare that Rockler has bought out. We use counter-rotating bits in our CNC every day, so no big deal. I built a Morris chair with the BeadLock system and immediately bought a Domino. Can't wait to see how this product gets developed...
What if they are not drills but 1 or 2 flutes end mills? I can think of a couple of ways to keep it firm (without pinty drills) and one way to give a little bit of side play. I have the feeling that the biggest selling point of the domino is that you don’t have to be crazy precise and it would still work. Even a millimiter or two would make alignement easier and I think the dowel would still work as one dimension stay the same... would need testing. It’s just the seed of an idea but I do believe the market would appreciate easier alignement.
Many valid comments so far. Here's my spin... First of all: I like your ingenuity. It's a fine tool you made there and it's great if it works for you. I also liked how other people tried to build their own low budget domino from a router and some plywood. But here's my opinion on trying to market it as a competitor.... There are basically three systems in the market: Festool's Domino, Lamello's Lamello, Mafell's Duo Doweler. Domino: Great for floating tenons, framing, table making. Lots of stability, can be forgiving with the "loose" settings. Lamello: Good for furniture work, sheet work. Ingenuity with P-System (Clamex), making this more than an alignment tool. Quite forgiving. Duo Dowler: It drills holes. I guess if it wasn't for the 32mm-System, there would have been less use to it. Not forgiving with dowels.... All three systems have some things in common: 1. They are ready to go machines (basically an angle grinder with an attachment to it). 2. They have a reference plate on the bottom, allowing you to place your stock on the table and have a perfect reference surface. 3. The adjustable fence is a nice add-on for larger stock, but most of the time the flat surface on the bottom is the best for standard 19mm ply, MDF, etc. in furniture work. 4. They have reference stops at the sides to align the tool quickly. 5. They have dust collection. I think the greatest flaw of your design is the separate power drill. It makes it very bulky to use and gives you two tools to align. You cannot use your table as reference surface. As some people mentioned a dowel jig: I see a dowel jig being either a light weight helper you can hold with one hand while you handle your heavier drill, OR a larger piece with multiple holes you setup and clamp to your work piece to have hands free for drilling and do repetitive, matching holes quickly. With a three-drill-gear-slider-fence-block that has its weight and a separate drill I'd be not so sure. If it was the only option, it'd be a leap forward to a dowel jig. But having options already, I'm not sure. The power drill has to deliver 3x power (+loss to the gears), so drilling three holes individually may be just as fast. The price point.... Hard to tell. Makita and DeWalt got biscuit joiners which are AFAIK the few real competitors for a Lamello Classic X, each ~250$€ (all other 50-100$€ toys suck). Triton got its spin on the duo doweler (which sucks right out of the box) for ~200$€. A contraption for 300-350$ that still requires a good power drill, that may be harder to use, is not that much of an alternative for a hobbyist than buying a good dowel jig. In perspective: The Wolfcraft biscuit joiner attachment for an angle grinder is ~50$€? Right and left turning drills in one tool are a great source of error. Also: Only available from you.... Closed system.... What's the advantage over Festool or Mafell? The workflow: Domino or Lamello-like machines are switched on, quickly aligned and plunged in, align, plunge, align, plunge.... turned off. Both hands on the machine all the time, super safe, super convenient. Yours: Align the contraption, get the drill, attach the drill, check the contraption again, turn on, push...push...push...done one plunge, detach the drill, put the drill away, goto the next mark. If the drill was fixed to the contraption, it'd become more handy, but maybe harder to maneuver. I think you'd have to improve some more and have some more system-gadgets that makes this tool equal to all three competitors.
Hi, there! That is exactly what I thought. Also you can use the Mafell as a 32mm system boring guide. That is what makes it so useful. The other two have the advantage of possible movement in one direction to keep the user error low. I wouldn't buy this "invention". Regards, Etna.
I like your work Andy, always have. I just don't think this is worth your time. I can get a beadlock for $105. I can get a doweling jig for even less. I could find a mortiser on craigist or buy a router for under $350. If I'm doing enough work to need the speed, I'm getting a domino. If I'm a hobbyist, I'm sticking with one of the other options. I just don't see a market at that price. If you can make it from off the shelf jellybean parts and cut it to $150, then you have something.
SkewToob I’m with you here. I’m not a cheapskate, but I did experience some sticker shock when $350 was mentioned. I was imagining a price point $80-$180. Dunno why, that was just my gut estimation.
I'd be in the $100 camp too. For the hobbyist market, affordability often will outweigh efficiency. And at that price point, I'm not sure Andrew could develop this with the quality of materials and craftsmanship that he usually strives for and still have enough profit margin left to make the venture worthwhile. It's an interesting concept and I'm sure the way Andrew would execute it would make it worth much more in terms of quality, but for me, the ability to drill three holes simultaneously is not going to be worth the cost. And for someone more production-minded, they're going to prefer the domino.
That's sure shaping up to be pretty awesome, Andy! I really think you're on to something great. I'd say ramp it up and then let Festool buy you out. :)
great idea well needed, and about time Domino is out of this world price wise in Canada for what it is keep up the great work for your suggested price I am ready to buy now.
I really like this idea. Solid joints, and accuracy. I can think of three projects right now ...one is 2/3 complete on my bench and this would be a game changer!
One advantage I see with the domino, biscuit joiners, and mafell/triton dowel machine is ergonomics. I find drill add-on's awkward to use. Could you build it to use an angle grinder as the power source? It would complicate the gearbox as you would have to have gear reduction as well, but the form factor seems to be proven for these machines.
There are a few biscuit joiners that have design commonality with the Domino 700, but when you first see them they appear awkward though ergonomically they’re more intuitive. I don’t think we’ve seen any T-handle or pistol grip joiners‽
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Congratulations ! I really apreciate when people like to create some things, does not matter with benchmarking
One advantage that the duel dowel machines have over the domino is that they are 32mm apart to work with the European style cabinet system. If the outside bits of your jig are 32mm you would then have something that is not only comparable to what the domino does, but also does something more.
That’s a pretty cool idea!!! Oh, and if you only have the 4th hardest wood in the world. Next time you’re here, I’ll give you the 3 that are harder than that. 😉 👍🏻 Anyway, I’m going to share this. I bet a ton of people will like it!!
As noted my many, the important feature of the domino is loose fit. For dowels to compete, they need to be placed so accurately that panels will be perfectly aligned. CNC will do this. For a hand tool, the best route is probably a full width jig (say 600mm) that adjusts to the exact width if the panel and and can allow two or more multi-dowel hole sets (on both panels) to be drilled to sub 0.1mm accuracy. It would still be slower than a domino- but more accurate. No more relying on the glue. People that assemble panels for a living will still use the domino, but if the price was right the jig would sell to everyone else. And that is a bigger market...
Yes, yes, and yes. For a while I've known that I would one day put down the money for a domino because there wasn't a comparable option I liked... but the cost is just so prohibitive.
This is my first youtube comment ever, but I just wanted to say how awesome what you are doing is. I was just complaining that for a weekend warrior like myself all the regular jointing options kinda suck. A Domino competitor like this would absolutely make sense for me and I would easily spend $350 if it means I can make a bigger project over two weekend days
First off I love your innovation. Very impressive prototyping, but I am going to say I'm not thrilled with the concept. I feel like really this is a dowel jig competitor not a domino competitor. Dowel jigs are sub $100 so at $300 for a non all-in-one tool is a hard sell. This seems to offer only a slight advantage over dowel jigs (advantage being 3 holes at once). In my book dowel jigging is easy, other than the fact that you need to get your spacing dialed in on both sides. Biscuits have slop, as do Dominos (when set to wider than the insert) using them in a panel glue up. For panel glue ups, putting 3 dowels on top of each other doesn't help with much, over a single dowel or biscuit. I personally would prefer a better designed dowel jig (more rigid with a better system to transfer the hole to the second piece), and if you want to do more than one hole, have a pop out index to register hole spacing.
As someone who uses dowels on most of my projects, I'll say the biggest advantages to using a Domino are 1.) the speed you can cut the mortises and 2.) the option for a loose setting. There are other advantages but those are the two that stick out to me whenever I consider if the Domino is worth the price. The jig you've made doesn't allow for the loose setting and I would guess it's not quite as fast as a Domino though it's probably somewhat faster than a traditional dowelling jig. I think three dowels per plunge is too much. It can't be used on as narrow stock as a domino or more traditional dowelling jigs. Drilling three 3/8" holes into end grain simultaneously sounds like a nightmare. I'm just imagining there being too much force required to drill the holes accurately with just the user holding the jig against the workpiece. I'm not as concerned with price right now because if the concept or idea isn't convenient and unique, who cares what the cost is? I think your best bet is something that looks like a miniature, portable, horizontal slot mortiser. There are little imitation domino jigs that a router fits into and mimics the oscillation effect. Something more refined than that would be great. I'm picturing a jig that can hold a variety of router bodies in a carriage that can slide front to back and side to side with necessary stops to dictate plunge depth and width. Anyway, I always admire your dedication and thought process on the various things you've created and invented. This is no different. Good luck and I'm happy to discuss this more if you're interested.
My only concern is that a dowel joint is not a floating tenon joint, and therefore cannot be compared in a 'marketing' type scenario, even if you supply all the data in the world about it's strength.
Since i do have a domino i'm biased, but still. Lateral setting in the domino is very handy (doesn't need to align perfectly), and it's better suited for mortise/tenon imo(of small stock). Looks nice tho
I think this is a great idea. Festool has been able to charge outrageous prices for the Domino largely, I believe because there hasn't been any competition for those sales. However, PLEASE make sure that you protect your ideas by submitting patents for them before showing them to all of us. You deserve credit for your work!
Love your thinking. Only concern is that I would have to buy replacement bits from you. I would be much more likely to buy the mechanism if I could simply replace bits with ones readily available at any shop.
I found your video as I was browsing after looking at the Mafell Doweller for $1500.00 , which makes it more expensive than the Festool Domino. I think there is a larger market than some comments may lead to believe. There is nothing out there between a doweling jig for your drill and the Mafell. I know I'm late to the party , but I just found you. Keep up the amazing work.
If you modified it so that the engine was a compact router and you sold a modified plunge base, then you would be talking. As is? Not that better or faster than a quality doweling jig.
I tend to agree with those saying that price is too high, but more importantly the tool carries one significant disadvantage in comparison to the domino, alignment flexibility. With dowels you can’t put slop in the holes to give yourself side to side flexibility on part alignment, with the domino there’s a setting that let’s you cut slightly oversized mortises so you can align your pieces perfectly during the glue-up without having dead on precision on the cuts. In my mind that problem significantly cuts into the potential usefulness of this tool in comparison to the domino.
No he doesn't. He said he would after he bought a $500K 5 axis CNC with all that Patreon money. He said he wanted to "give back" by doing projects for people but it was all just bullshit talk to keep people tuning in.
i have to agree. andys dowel jigs looks great but its not a domino . it cant be and wont be . the domino is easily in the top 5 tools ever made. the domino is fast, accurate, easily adjustable, really strong joints and actually prity cheap considering the work it does.
@@n8guy just speed acuracy and strength . a loose tennon is really strong , you can make the slot wider if you want alignment with some strength and a bit of play. a dowel jig is slower and needs a lot more care to get it accurate where as a domino is verey easiy to use accuratly. andys dowel jig will have a lot of great features similar to a domino like the fence and being able to hold it to a mark and drill from there but its still a dowel jig
Very interested. Just happened to be looking at various dowel jigs this past week and wondering what the strength comparison would be to a Domino if I used long enough dowels. Some suggestions for features include 1) Self-centering add on similar to dowel jigs. 2) Offer longer dowels on your site. I find it difficult to find ones that I would consider long enough to use in this type of application. 3) See through fence of some fashion for positioning even if it's just a hole in the alignment plate. I like my Dewalt biscuit jointer for this. 4) Need a depth stop for the holes.
I just saw Kings mag feeder build and he said to look up your site which I did and even subscribed after seeing you build this new Dowling jig. I'm a big fan of using biscuits and for many years going back to the Emelo first one that came out and also a big fan of dowels. I have used gang drills before that is nothing new but this jig you have designed is. Right off the bat what is so good is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ dowels are cheap but Festool dominos go for over $300, THAT is a BIG SAVINGS right off the bat. BRAVO Andrew. I will buy one for sure, I think it has to be geared down to the 3/8 mark or smaller like 1/4. it is not the size of the dowl so much as is the patterns spread. I'm thinking of face frames and the like. Anyway, I'll be watching.
I don't know if someone has said this but the Festool Domino provides controllable lateral flexibility without sacrificing alignment and joint strength. Other than this it's just a dowel jig.
I love the idea Andy. The Domino in the high school woodshop is tricky and expensive. This is a simple affordable solution. Two thoughts, one to go faster by better chip removal and second thought would be a companion tool for making the dowells.
I think this is a great idea. As an owner of both dominos, I don’t think I would buy it but the ability to make your own dowel stock and or buy it cheaply is intriguing. I hope you move forward on this project.
This is a great start... I own a Beadlock which makes a floating tendon. The device you have made (though impressive) is just a Dowling jig. I use this to make breadboard ends on tables. I needed a floating tendon not dowels to let the different grain patterns to expand without cracking. If you made another two drill holes in between the three you are there! And would save a ton of time compared to the Beadlock. I have to drill five separate holes for my Beadlock if it where only 2 steps it would be an improvement over the Beadlock.
One thing I like about the festool is that it can cut into endgrain for furniture legs like one would make for MCM furniture that doesn't require or even allow for 3 bits to go in at once. My concern in having 3 bits going at once would be how to best use the device on just such tasks.
I'd make it so 1 or two bits could be taken out. If an outside bit is taken out then the remaining 2 are spaced 5/8" center to center, so pretty tight for small work pieces.
I have thought this too, but with one drill bit that wobbling back and forth as it went into the wood. my thought was an axis and maze arrangement. as you push it down the maze would give you a back and forth motion and a spring as a return. like a plunge router.
its a good concept Andrew as most of us have drills .. keep up the good work. i bought a v cheap trition duo doweleer at 120 usd ex display so going to try your adaptions you posted - thanks again for that : very helpful..
The first thing that comes to mind is not being able to make floating tenons on thinner stock like the Domino can (1” square stock stretcher into table leg or something). Maybe if the user could remove one of the bits so that there were only two very close together? Might even be a way for you to drop the price further, change it to a two bit design.
I would really like to see you try the handheld mortiser with a trim router build. Your concepts and the way you can improve things would be great.If you could use a die grinder instead of a router. Thay would make it very compact and would be interesting. I think this would be more of competition to a domino. Thank you for a great channel.
Andy, you are a force of nature. What I could do with a brain like yours!! I concur with your first assertion that Festool needs a serious competitor. However I feel the floating tenon concept is more unique and versatile than dowel jigs - regardless of the number of holes. How about sticking with your original motivation and designing a less expensive slot mortiser? Perhaps one -- like your current prototype -- that using an off-the-shelf tool motor to cut down on cost? I would pay $300 for a true Festool Domino alternative, but no more than $100 for any version of a dowel jig. Just my $0.02, but keep iterating! You are a one-man R&D Studio!
Absolutely pursue this idea. But I think what makes the dominio so appealing is the fact that it’s a machine that offers a different type of tenon. I think you should go for a dedicated motor and try for dust collection as well.
I use to use dowels a lot in the past. I would restart using them with one of these dowel joiners. Quality is always on the top of my tool buying but I would like to see the cost a bit lower. I say march on!
I have seen something very similar. Tool callled "CMT333-03" made by italian CMT, used for boring holes for cabinet hinges. They also have one model with 5 drilling attachments.
the first thing i would consider is the accuracy which im sure will be there. now if its have the cost of the domino you ask yourself how many dominoes have been sold. i think the idea of providing your own drill whether cordless or corded is great. if the domino motor goes the whole tool needs to serviced if serviceable. however if your drill goes the expense for another drill is acceptable since it used in other applications. another factor is that dowels are cheaper i believe than dominoes. the concept is excellent and i think you have a winner. Will i buy it as a hobbyist , it will depend how much woodworking im doing. However if im a pro the ROI is there. Also you can probable move from 3 drills to 2 to save on costs and size of unit. good luck
The video of your tool shows innovation that's Definitely in it's own niche, considering the price of previously introduced machines that are in the cost "stratosphere" Thxs for your hard work!
You can buy a Mafell or a Triton electric dowelling tool like this already. It works like a biscuit joiner. And yes, anybody can buy reverse spiral drill bits, just have to go to Amana for that, or any supplier to cabinet shops.
love your stuff, I have always been a big fan and supporter of your ingenuity and entrepreneurship. I'm a hobbyist woodworker that is unwilling to afford a domino and have been using straight-up dowels for the past few years. I suspect going head to head with Festool in the large commercial market would be a struggle, but I believe there is an opening in the hobbyist arena where you would be competing with all the dowel jigs out there (yes I know you have a better tool, but garage woodworkers are a stingy lot) and possibly in the small professional shops where speed and functionality are everything. I think a few videos demonstrating speed, strength tests, and some application trials are in order to drive interest before plowing straight ahead. That being said, I think you have an awesome solution.
I think you should be working on encasing it adding its own power too. Having the drill attachment at 350 then a motored one nearer the competition price would have everyone covered. I think it's a great looking tool, I'd buy one. Carpenter in the UK.
I'm a hobbyist that's making a kitchen out of ply and was looking for the best way to do the joinery. I started with a Jessem doweling jig and although it's extremely well made and accurate , I just couldn't face all of the clamping that was involved, different drill depths for faces and ends meant having 2 bits with stops that needed swapping or 2 separate drills. I made a couple of boxes with it and that was enough. I looked at the Domino and the Triton and the Lamello but finally settled on the Mafell Duo Dowler DDF40. More expensive than the Domino in the U.S but comparable in Europe. What I've taken from using the Mafell is this. Duo dowels are as strong or stronger than a single Domino so is there any reason to do 3 per plunge? Having 2 would cut costs. Adjustable depth stops are essential for dowels and using bit stops or tape is not an option. Being able to drill one handed without clamps is also essential IMO as is a fully adjustable fence. It has to be able to do miter joints. I'm not sure it could come close to a Domino or Mafell but it needs to be much better than the Triton and as accurate as the Jessem and come in at $200-250. I hope it takes off for you. Good luck.
You are very clever and the concept is nice. But I am not a fan of dowels. Perhaps informed by years and years of dowel failure (although I do like Miller Dowels), dowels just don't seem to have enough cross grain glue holding surface. So you would have to demonstrate that the dowel stock can stay glued in the joint as well as a domino would hold. I don't use the Domino because of its expense. I like to use my PantoRouter or Horizontal boring machine to cut mortises and to make my own loose tenon stock. I have found my baltic birch plywood scraps make great loose tenons. I do wish you the best of luck. You are extremely clever in your solutions.
A more direct comparison to your prototype is the Mafell dual doweller. The advantage of your tool is cost. Does the third drill really help? It seems to me to impose certain sizing requirements on the workpieces to be joined, a disadvantage.
I'd be interested in seeing joint strength comparisons. Also, would you anticipate accommodating different bit sizes? I have a Domino and I really appreciate the wide variety of tenons I can use for different applications.
I appreciate the thinking. I like the bring your own motor idea. Shame about the two dowel triton machine being a pile. for me, a hand held trim router with a fence is a domino competitor, for 350 that’s a couple routers set for exact needs, and can be used for other shop tasks. A product I’d like to see Is an indexing adjustable fence as a router base for common trim routers. I think that’s the domino competitor. Lock the cordless router in and go.
Looks solid! The mafell duo doweler can be had for around $700 so a product like this needs to be less than half of the mafell. I'd pay around 250-300 for a product like this if it also included several bits and such. Keep up the prototyping!! Curious to see more.
Looks like a really cool design however all you have is a really complicated doweling jig that doesn't allow for smaller projects. The beauty of the Domino is it's versatility in using different size tenons. I've seen a video somewhere on TH-cam that compared the strength of biscuits, dowels and domino tenons to a real mortise and tenon. The domino was the winner....besting ever a traditional mortise and tenon.
Anything that is the same or better than existing popular tool for a cheaper price is going to do well. All your market research has been done for you.
My first time seeing your channel. If you started a kickstarter, I'd support it. Looking for a well machined alternative to a Domino at a better price point and yours looks solid and your attention to detail is impressive. Great work.
It will sell, but not because it's good, but simply because of your influence over your viewers. It definitely doesn't look like domino competitor. Like a bicyle is not a competitor to motorcycle.
Harley Davidson has a pretty loyal following, or “influence over” their customers as you put it. But I’m pretty sure they can’t sell bikes as motorcycles just like my audience wouldn’t buy a sub-par concept from me.
@@AndrewKleinWW whatever you're doing with this tool - continue. In my opinion there's limited market for it. But you'll make money nonetheless from it. You have quite the following and so the marketing part of it is halfway done
@@laius6047 In what way is your analogy fitting? It's more like buying a rolling chassis instead of a turn-key racecar (though much more plug-and-play than that even), and that's very common in many racing series, for many of the same reasons this is a product the market needs.
I've never seen this channel before, but I'm here because I'm not interested in spending $1500 on a Festool product (yet again, I've already got half a dozen) to get locked into an ecosystem when a dowel is the obvious efficient solution. Problem is, jigs are slower and more fiddly, biscuits are weak for my purposes, and dominoes are an unnecessary speacialized consumable. The few doweling joiners that have ever existed are basically extinct (and even Freud's didn't seem to be great.) Something like this with 95% of the benefits of a power joiner at a fraction of the cost, and all the flexibility of a jig (in many senses: small to store, works with any sufficient drill motor, not a major financial commitment), simply doesn't exist in the market. The devil's in the details of execution, but suffice to say, if this was available today I'd be compulsively refreshing the UPS tracking history instead of writing this comment right now.
All you have to concede is that 1) dominoes or dowels are superior to biscuits in many applications, and B) plenty of people can't or don't want to pay for the Fesley-Toolidson $30,000 bagger, and there is your not-small market. A niche tool, sure, but hardly restricted to the guy's Patreon pool.
One major thing is that the domino has adjustments from tight-fitting to loose-fitting which is nice when you need a little wiggle room. If it can do that, I would gladly pay $450 for this
The reason we come to Andrew, is his innovation - outside the box fixing - and he fixes problems others have yet to, or felt they didnt need to.
Wow! I like the way you think. Very unique solution. Hoping this gains some traction!
What a joy it is to watch someone that knows what they are doing. I learned a few things just watching you. Thank you.
Love the concept! I'm all for pursuing it further
Love this idea. Changing bit sizes will be key, think about the range of joints the small Domino can do with 4mm to 10mm tenons. I know it would be difficult, but changing distance from outside bits to center would be good too, or offer different heads, thinking about smaller stock where 3 dowels won't fit. Could also remove one of the outside bits to work with smaller pieces. Fence registration into the face of a board or ply is a big pain with the domino out of the box, so jigs or helpers on yours would be great since you won't be supplying the motor and can focus on the parts that really improve user experience. I usually make jigs and fixtures when using the domino on the face of boards to keep it repeatable. Also key would be more depth travel on the fence. Think of putting 2 or 3 rows of dowels on thick stock like 2.5" while being able to use the same reference face and not flip the piece over and risk errors.
I 100% agree. The Domino isn't perfect, but it's versatile. 4mm-10mm dominos. It also has the ability to cut wider holes which makes alignment easier. There is DEFINITELY a market for a less expensive alternative and Andy is the right guy for the job.
Jack Bench Woodworking ocoh
On bith the Triton and Grizzly, bits are available in the different dowel widths.
This looks promising for sure man! One of the things that strikes me about the utility of the Domino is usefulness of the fence system. With multiple positive stops, reference marks and sight lines machine presents a system for reducing measuring and the time it takes to not only cut the mortises. In my mind a “serious competitor” would need those same features to get me to switch. I guess what I’m trying to say (again just my opinion and I’m certainly no pro! 😆) is that it’s more about the system as a whole than simply the ability to cut mortises quickly.
In any case, love your stuff and look forward to seeing what you come up with in the end! You are spot on about the Domino needing a serious competitor and I have no doubt you’re the one to do it! 👍🏼
This is really exciting and I think marketing it as a domino competitor is a fantastic idea - you don't need to waste precious seconds explaining what it does. 95% of your market will already know it's place in their shop. I love the prototype and I can't even imagine what improvements you will make in the final version.
Here's a few non-obvious pain-points about our domino where I think your tool provides a better solution:
1. It has a tendency to walk away. It's not too bad, but it's enough to make me second-guess the mortises. I think your cork rubber (if that's what I saw on the faceplate) would be a great solution. Also the brad pointed drill bit in the center helps!
2. The domino takes some getting used to. I think your tool will feel more comfortable (using the owner's own drill), be lighter, and familiar. Employees wouldn't need as much training to learn bit/tenon sizes, depth adjustments, etc. If they've drilled a pilot hole, they can use your tool!
3. Forgetting to change a critical setting on the domino can leave you with sub-par joints. If you change domino size, you have to adjust like 3 settings on the tool in addition to the bit. Forgetting or missing the index on just one setting can really mess things up. Your tool would just have a depth stop - that's much easier!
Hope this helps! -Davis
Incredible design as usual 👊🏼👊🏼
Thanks Jimmy, so cool to know you are following along!!
Whats really awesome is the amount of TH-cam creators commenting on this video. A lot of great feedback and support for you. You are a great idea guy.
$350 still seem like a lot imo. That's a third* of what the domino costs and w/o a systainer, spare parts, a drill battery, charger, etc.
I could cut some corners and go cheaper, but I don't think thats the right thing to do
@@AndrewKleinWW probably not if you're going for a very good product, I agree!
Also solving the "expnesive domino problem" is a very nobel and much needed thing to do :)
I was just saying though and hopefuly giving you feedback, I personaly would invest another 500-600 bucks and get the real deal if your product costs $350
Festool is about to raise prices again, $350 might end up 1/4 of the cost of the Domino.
I would say it depends if you're only targeting professionals that will put a high value to the benefits for speed and ease of use to maximize their productivity.
Otherwise, IMO, it would be a hard sell for hobbyists when there are cheaper options like the Rockler Beadlock® Pro Joinery Kit... While other products like a Dowel Max may still be competitive with its greater versatility, despite being slower and harder to use...
Build it in China for 20usd
Isn’t one feature of the Domino that the dowels can move left to right? With dowels, the spacing needs to be perfect otherwise you cannot join two workpieces.
Exactly. This was and always will be the problem with any doweling system. Move just a bit...and mis-alignment. The domino has 2 setting to make the slot wider. I always try and avoid using the wobble out setting if I need racking strength.
This was the brilliance of the domino concept, because the domino fixing has flat edges it can move side to side slightly but still have plenty of contact area for glue. If a dowel is put into a slot it only has two tiny contact points and therefore forms a weak joint.
The thing about the dual dowelers is the spacing is 1 1/4" on center. If you set it up the same as a biscuit jointer, the dowels would be perfect every time. The thing about biscuit jointer is they are made more for the ability to align the pieces - it really adds no strength. Dowels do. Wiggle room takes away accuracy.
Couple of thoughts. Firstly, In my mind, the inherent advantage of using 3 dowels would be anti racking. Putting all 3 in the same line doesn't help that at all. Gives you strength only in one way. Off-setting the one in the middle would give an incredible amount of strength if that is at all possible. If its not, then I would question why even do the third. Especially if it adds that much to the cost with gears etc, make the machine more compact and just have two and be done with it. It is quicker and far cheaper to just drill two and move on to the next position and do 2 more holes.
As far as price goes, the issues with the Triton are quality based, with a few simple design tweaks needed and it regularly sells for below 200. That is where this tool would sing. Selling it for 300 and over, I just don't see the benefit compared to other tools and jigs out there that are more versatile.
I think its a great idea, but at the end of the day, you are making a biscuit joiner with 3 drill bits and a gearbox. If companies can make a reasonable biscuit joiner for 100$, which has the motor, and the fence, and make money, it seems there is a way to add drill bits and a gear box and get it for 200. Given your affinity for Grizzly tools, which I am a fan of as well, I would reach out to them. This is what he specializes in. He can reach out to the factory that makes the existing tools, get the design tweaked to your specs, slap a new brand on it and ship it. No need to reinvent the wheel, when all you really want to do is make the Triton accurate and repeatable. Your video shows that can be done.
I love the idea and ingenuity shown, just feel like your trajectory is a bit off. This is over complicated for what you have stated you needed, and less convenient while being potentially expensive than a subpar competitor its made to beat.
Jeff Krayenvenger I like the concept, but practically, I think by offsetting the dowels you would be required to make them smaller so they are not too close to the surface, at that point you'd be better off to just have larger dowels, centered (in my opinion) if we were talking about thick stock I think your idea has merit but typically this tool, (or the domino) are going to be used with 3/4 inch stock, maybe 4/4, for at least one of the 2 pieces being joined.
The idea of hiring the manufacturer of the Triton to make a version with tighter tolerances is an interesting thought.
Aloha Andrew,
Good prototyping. I had fewer tools to do mine when I was needed to keep a shop going for a contractor on 'Base Housing'. I've always shied away from Domino's since they were pricy and seemed just too beyond the needs of a general woodworker. Even 'Biscuits' have their limits.
If I wasn't disabled now, with all the 'Whiz Bang' of CNC and CAD-based tools, I'd use a gear set-up that allows you to pivot your drills spacing, using 'idler gears' to vary the spacing yet maintain the same rotation.
I really like your prototype, hope to see more of it as you work out its design.
A lot of my accessories later were later thought of and picked up by toolmakers. I've been out of action now for about 8 years. Vertigo 24/7 makes me not feel safe enough around 'man-eating shop tools. Rehab sent me back to Collage and I did well with today's CAD Classes, but I'm still too slow to be productive as I was before. I was into CAD just as digital was becoming available to common P/C's.
I'd do more today 'if'... but vertigo and loss of pay have taken its toll on too many things in my life. Keep working out your ideas and learn from your mistakes, they are truly the best things to learn.
Aloha, Mark Baker
P.S. don't let comments steer you away from your ideas, work your ideas into working models as you did with your prototype. Don't let the 'apples to oranges' simplicity comparison get any traction. Dowels can be made cheaply or be brought cheaply, much cheaper than baskets or Dominoes of any size.
The Triton might not be perfect out the box, but with some work its a good tool for the money at only $200. To try and sell this at $350 without a motor seem foolish. The idea off using a drill to power it only has one real advantage ease of manufacturing for you. But has plenty of disadvantages, the fact you need two hands to operate it because there's no attachment between the drill and fence , makes the tool unbalanced, and makes the tool longer than the competition. If you could make it permanently mountable to a popular $40 angel grinder that people could buy off Amazon and attach them self would be very cool. Save on shipping and manufacturing for you with the body and motor and makes it a much more direct competitor to mafell and festool.
This is honestly the best way. Holding a drill seems much more awkward than holding the grinder - which would be a much closer feel to the domino.
I like the angle grinder idea.
I agree that the separation of the motor introduces sort of a pivot point that you need to focus on keeping straight, where an integrated motor/ handle gives you leverage on the tool
Angle grinder might run too fast and blue the drill bits, especially on larger diameter bits
Thomas Doherty I have to agree if it was a standard grinder speed. I'm guessing maybe there is a gearbox in the head of the grinder that gets the wheel to that 20,000 RPM range and turns the rotation of the motor 90 degrees. I would imagine the triton either has a gearbox or an electric motor designed for a specific drive speed.
Lamello zeta and Mafell duo doweler are direct domino competitors
I'm really interested in this. I remember you talking about the other day when we spoke at Workbench Con. I have a Domino, but I'm still interested because dowel stock is much easier to make/buy and much cheaper than the proprietary dominos. Plus, as you said, any drill can be used with this. Not a special machine. Keep going with it!
This shows a lot of promise. It's in the sweet spot between a Domino and the BeadLock nightmare that Rockler has bought out. We use counter-rotating bits in our CNC every day, so no big deal. I built a Morris chair with the BeadLock system and immediately bought a Domino. Can't wait to see how this product gets developed...
What if they are not drills but 1 or 2 flutes end mills? I can think of a couple of ways to keep it firm (without pinty drills) and one way to give a little bit of side play. I have the feeling that the biggest selling point of the domino is that you don’t have to be crazy precise and it would still work. Even a millimiter or two would make alignement easier and I think the dowel would still work as one dimension stay the same... would need testing. It’s just the seed of an idea but I do believe the market would appreciate easier alignement.
Many valid comments so far. Here's my spin...
First of all: I like your ingenuity. It's a fine tool you made there and it's great if it works for you. I also liked how other people tried to build their own low budget domino from a router and some plywood.
But here's my opinion on trying to market it as a competitor....
There are basically three systems in the market: Festool's Domino, Lamello's Lamello, Mafell's Duo Doweler.
Domino: Great for floating tenons, framing, table making. Lots of stability, can be forgiving with the "loose" settings.
Lamello: Good for furniture work, sheet work. Ingenuity with P-System (Clamex), making this more than an alignment tool. Quite forgiving.
Duo Dowler: It drills holes. I guess if it wasn't for the 32mm-System, there would have been less use to it. Not forgiving with dowels....
All three systems have some things in common:
1. They are ready to go machines (basically an angle grinder with an attachment to it).
2. They have a reference plate on the bottom, allowing you to place your stock on the table and have a perfect reference surface.
3. The adjustable fence is a nice add-on for larger stock, but most of the time the flat surface on the bottom is the best for standard 19mm ply, MDF, etc. in furniture work.
4. They have reference stops at the sides to align the tool quickly.
5. They have dust collection.
I think the greatest flaw of your design is the separate power drill. It makes it very bulky to use and gives you two tools to align. You cannot use your table as reference surface.
As some people mentioned a dowel jig:
I see a dowel jig being either a light weight helper you can hold with one hand while you handle your heavier drill, OR a larger piece with multiple holes you setup and clamp to your work piece to have hands free for drilling and do repetitive, matching holes quickly.
With a three-drill-gear-slider-fence-block that has its weight and a separate drill I'd be not so sure. If it was the only option, it'd be a leap forward to a dowel jig. But having options already, I'm not sure.
The power drill has to deliver 3x power (+loss to the gears), so drilling three holes individually may be just as fast.
The price point....
Hard to tell. Makita and DeWalt got biscuit joiners which are AFAIK the few real competitors for a Lamello Classic X, each ~250$€ (all other 50-100$€ toys suck). Triton got its spin on the duo doweler (which sucks right out of the box) for ~200$€.
A contraption for 300-350$ that still requires a good power drill, that may be harder to use, is not that much of an alternative for a hobbyist than buying a good dowel jig.
In perspective: The Wolfcraft biscuit joiner attachment for an angle grinder is ~50$€?
Right and left turning drills in one tool are a great source of error. Also: Only available from you.... Closed system.... What's the advantage over Festool or Mafell?
The workflow:
Domino or Lamello-like machines are switched on, quickly aligned and plunged in, align, plunge, align, plunge.... turned off. Both hands on the machine all the time, super safe, super convenient.
Yours:
Align the contraption, get the drill, attach the drill, check the contraption again, turn on, push...push...push...done one plunge, detach the drill, put the drill away, goto the next mark.
If the drill was fixed to the contraption, it'd become more handy, but maybe harder to maneuver.
I think you'd have to improve some more and have some more system-gadgets that makes this tool equal to all three competitors.
Looks like maffell only with three instead of two drills. I don‘t see any room between Lamello, Domino and Mafell Duo dübler
Hi, there!
That is exactly what I thought. Also you can use the Mafell as a 32mm system boring guide. That is what makes it so useful. The other two have the advantage of possible movement in one direction to keep the user error low. I wouldn't buy this "invention".
Regards,
Etna.
Exactly what i thought. Also the Mafell has only 2 drills which makes it better for smaller joints.
@@yosefjann and U have different Drill sizes
Bro! Want this in my life! Move forward with this quickly cause this is a winner!
I like your work Andy, always have. I just don't think this is worth your time. I can get a beadlock for $105. I can get a doweling jig for even less. I could find a mortiser on craigist or buy a router for under $350. If I'm doing enough work to need the speed, I'm getting a domino. If I'm a hobbyist, I'm sticking with one of the other options. I just don't see a market at that price.
If you can make it from off the shelf jellybean parts and cut it to $150, then you have something.
SkewToob I’m with you here. I’m not a cheapskate, but I did experience some sticker shock when $350 was mentioned. I was imagining a price point $80-$180. Dunno why, that was just my gut estimation.
Where can you get a beadlock for $ 105? The one I saw on Amazon was $ 170.
@@jacklucas7265 Must have been on sale at the time. $150 at Rocker. Either that or my brain transposed numbers.
@@jacklucas7265 I just bought one on Rockler.com on sale for $105.00 a couple weeks ago. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Cheers!
I'd be in the $100 camp too. For the hobbyist market, affordability often will outweigh efficiency. And at that price point, I'm not sure Andrew could develop this with the quality of materials and craftsmanship that he usually strives for and still have enough profit margin left to make the venture worthwhile. It's an interesting concept and I'm sure the way Andrew would execute it would make it worth much more in terms of quality, but for me, the ability to drill three holes simultaneously is not going to be worth the cost. And for someone more production-minded, they're going to prefer the domino.
Yes!!! Great concept. Simple and you can use with any drill. Dominos do need a competitor.
That's sure shaping up to be pretty awesome, Andy! I really think you're on to something great. I'd say ramp it up and then let Festool buy you out. :)
Lol
NOOOO!!!!!! Festool would make this too expensive for the common DIY'er.
great idea well needed, and about time Domino is out of this world price wise in Canada for what it is keep up the great work for your suggested price I am ready to buy now.
Slightly similar: Triton TDJ600
Only 2 holes, wide apart. Quality seems to be an issue.
$350 for 3hole with quality would be excellent.
The plate on that machine wobbles. It's difficult to index it accurately. I purchased one and returned it.
The Triton sucks..sorry Triton tried it 3xs had issues everytime
The maffel duo dowler is a similar concept only, much better quality.
@@hardnox6655 the felissati is a way better product and only an hundred bucks more
@@patricelebrasseur5649 Thanks for the info. I've searched and can't find a Felissati Dowler anywhere. they must have stopped making it.
I really like this idea. Solid joints, and accuracy. I can think of three projects right now ...one is 2/3 complete on my bench and this would be a game changer!
One advantage I see with the domino, biscuit joiners, and mafell/triton dowel machine is ergonomics. I find drill add-on's awkward to use. Could you build it to use an angle grinder as the power source? It would complicate the gearbox as you would have to have gear reduction as well, but the form factor seems to be proven for these machines.
There are a few biscuit joiners that have design commonality with the Domino 700, but when you first see them they appear awkward though ergonomically they’re more intuitive.
I don’t think we’ve seen any T-handle or pistol grip joiners‽
Congratulations ! I really apreciate when people like to create some things, does not matter with benchmarking
Count me in as a customer for the "Throuple Jointer"!
One advantage that the duel dowel machines have over the domino is that they are 32mm apart to work with the European style cabinet system. If the outside bits of your jig are 32mm you would then have something that is not only comparable to what the domino does, but also does something more.
Only about 7 more years on the Domino patent countdown.
I was under the impression that patents can be renewed.... but I could be completely wrong, and must be. Cheers!
@@JDeWittDIY There are renewal fees you have to pay to maintain the patent for the full 20 years. but no you can't extend it beyond that.
only ? then you'll find a dewalt one with brutal start motor and mediocre precision.
@@krtwood Thanks, that's good to know.
Love this idea! The best part is to make it affordable for those of us weekend project folks. I think you should pursue this idea further.
That’s a pretty cool idea!!!
Oh, and if you only have the 4th hardest wood in the world. Next time you’re here, I’ll give you the 3 that are harder than that. 😉 👍🏻
Anyway, I’m going to share this. I bet a ton of people will like it!!
Lmao sounds sus
As noted my many, the important feature of the domino is loose fit. For dowels to compete, they need to be placed so accurately that panels will be perfectly aligned. CNC will do this. For a hand tool, the best route is probably a full width jig (say 600mm) that adjusts to the exact width if the panel and and can allow two or more multi-dowel hole sets (on both panels) to be drilled to sub 0.1mm accuracy. It would still be slower than a domino- but more accurate. No more relying on the glue. People that assemble panels for a living will still use the domino, but if the price was right the jig would sell to everyone else. And that is a bigger market...
Yes, yes, and yes. For a while I've known that I would one day put down the money for a domino because there wasn't a comparable option I liked... but the cost is just so prohibitive.
This is my first youtube comment ever, but I just wanted to say how awesome what you are doing is. I was just complaining that for a weekend warrior like myself all the regular jointing options kinda suck. A Domino competitor like this would absolutely make sense for me and I would easily spend $350 if it means I can make a bigger project over two weekend days
First off I love your innovation. Very impressive prototyping, but I am going to say I'm not thrilled with the concept.
I feel like really this is a dowel jig competitor not a domino competitor. Dowel jigs are sub $100 so at $300 for a non all-in-one tool is a hard sell.
This seems to offer only a slight advantage over dowel jigs (advantage being 3 holes at once). In my book dowel jigging is easy, other than the fact that you need to get your spacing dialed in on both sides. Biscuits have slop, as do Dominos (when set to wider than the insert) using them in a panel glue up. For panel glue ups, putting 3 dowels on top of each other doesn't help with much, over a single dowel or biscuit.
I personally would prefer a better designed dowel jig (more rigid with a better system to transfer the hole to the second piece), and if you want to do more than one hole, have a pop out index to register hole spacing.
Alex Funiciello hezletp
Have you seen the Jessem 8350? Is this the type of sturdy doweling jig you are looking for?
@@brianm5428 Thanks, that one looks pretty solid.
As someone who uses dowels on most of my projects, I'll say the biggest advantages to using a Domino are 1.) the speed you can cut the mortises and 2.) the option for a loose setting. There are other advantages but those are the two that stick out to me whenever I consider if the Domino is worth the price. The jig you've made doesn't allow for the loose setting and I would guess it's not quite as fast as a Domino though it's probably somewhat faster than a traditional dowelling jig.
I think three dowels per plunge is too much. It can't be used on as narrow stock as a domino or more traditional dowelling jigs. Drilling three 3/8" holes into end grain simultaneously sounds like a nightmare. I'm just imagining there being too much force required to drill the holes accurately with just the user holding the jig against the workpiece.
I'm not as concerned with price right now because if the concept or idea isn't convenient and unique, who cares what the cost is? I think your best bet is something that looks like a miniature, portable, horizontal slot mortiser. There are little imitation domino jigs that a router fits into and mimics the oscillation effect. Something more refined than that would be great. I'm picturing a jig that can hold a variety of router bodies in a carriage that can slide front to back and side to side with necessary stops to dictate plunge depth and width.
Anyway, I always admire your dedication and thought process on the various things you've created and invented. This is no different. Good luck and I'm happy to discuss this more if you're interested.
Needs more innuendo
Thats all I could stomach
That Cremona guy is kind of an ass & a perv. I stopped watching his videos, all he talked about is crotch and figures. so disturbing.
I know right...? Weird that my next video in the queue is about thinly sliced crotch.
Air tight idea
Shouldn't you be shoveling snow? And cutting up another tree? Oh and getting that tree hauling trailer completed?
My only concern is that a dowel joint is not a floating tenon joint, and therefore cannot be compared in a 'marketing' type scenario, even if you supply all the data in the world about it's strength.
I like the idea, don't like the price. This feels more like a dowel jig version two. 350 for a dowel jig?
Andrew... We are still holding our breaths..!!! Hahaha... Looking forward with this project of yours...
Since i do have a domino i'm biased, but still. Lateral setting in the domino is very handy (doesn't need to align perfectly), and it's better suited for mortise/tenon imo(of small stock). Looks nice tho
That's what I thought. As it is, this invention competes with the Mafell Duo Doweller rather than the Domino in my opinion.
I think this is a great idea. Festool has been able to charge outrageous prices for the Domino largely, I believe because there hasn't been any competition for those sales. However, PLEASE make sure that you protect your ideas by submitting patents for them before showing them to all of us. You deserve credit for your work!
Weeeelll... There's the Maffell Duo-Dübler that does the same thing...
But that is so priced near the festool domino price range.
Yeh but it's $1000 so there is room for a low priced option, though I think $350 is way too expensive.
Multiple dowels make a strong joint. Different sized bits are where this gets even better.
*Festool has left the chat*
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Love your thinking. Only concern is that I would have to buy replacement bits from you. I would be much more likely to buy the mechanism if I could simply replace bits with ones readily available at any shop.
At $350 or less, I'm 100% in.
I found your video as I was browsing after looking at the Mafell Doweller for $1500.00 , which makes it more expensive than the Festool Domino. I think there is a larger market than some comments may lead to believe. There is nothing out there between a doweling jig for your drill and the Mafell. I know I'm late to the party , but I just found you. Keep up the amazing work.
If you modified it so that the engine was a compact router and you sold a modified plunge base, then you would be talking. As is? Not that better or faster than a quality doweling jig.
I love this idea. I have been delaying a purchase on a domino hoping a competitor will do exactly what you are doing!
Seems more like a high priced dowel jig competitor rather then a low price domino competitor. Looks cool, but I would not be a buyer.
This was exactly my first thought. It hit me that it was just a very fancy and expensive dowel jig. I'll wait for the Domino knockoffs.
I tend to agree with those saying that price is too high, but more importantly the tool carries one significant disadvantage in comparison to the domino, alignment flexibility. With dowels you can’t put slop in the holes to give yourself side to side flexibility on part alignment, with the domino there’s a setting that let’s you cut slightly oversized mortises so you can align your pieces perfectly during the glue-up without having dead on precision on the cuts. In my mind that problem significantly cuts into the potential usefulness of this tool in comparison to the domino.
You need to hook up with AvE on TH-cam. He occasionally takes CNC projects from the community.
No he doesn't. He said he would after he bought a $500K 5 axis CNC with all that Patreon money. He said he wanted to "give back" by doing projects for people but it was all just bullshit talk to keep people tuning in.
@@OU81TWO maybe you should check out his channel. He has made multiple videos. Makes you look foolish when you dont know what you are talking about.
Andrew, the world needs this!!! Please keep it up - superb work as always, cheers from the UK 👍
You built a dowelling jig. It has NONE of the features which make the Domino the great design it is.
i have to agree. andys dowel jigs looks great but its not a domino . it cant be and wont be . the domino is easily in the top 5 tools ever made. the domino is fast, accurate, easily adjustable, really strong joints and actually prity cheap considering the work it does.
Could you expound further?
@@n8guy just speed acuracy and strength . a loose tennon is really strong , you can make the slot wider if you want alignment with some strength and a bit of play. a dowel jig is slower and needs a lot more care to get it accurate where as a domino is verey easiy to use accuratly. andys dowel jig will have a lot of great features similar to a domino like the fence and being able to hold it to a mark and drill from there but its still a dowel jig
MelbourneAlan I didn't think of the alignment issue, that's actually a pretty good point, in that you really need to be accurate on your placement.
Very interested. Just happened to be looking at various dowel jigs this past week and wondering what the strength comparison would be to a Domino if I used long enough dowels. Some suggestions for features include 1) Self-centering add on similar to dowel jigs. 2) Offer longer dowels on your site. I find it difficult to find ones that I would consider long enough to use in this type of application. 3) See through fence of some fashion for positioning even if it's just a hole in the alignment plate. I like my Dewalt biscuit jointer for this. 4) Need a depth stop for the holes.
If only i knew what a domino was...this would probably make much more sense.
It's a $1200 loose tenon cutter made by festool similar to a biscuit joiner but stronger.
I just saw Kings mag feeder build and he said to look up your site which I did and even subscribed after seeing you build this new Dowling jig. I'm a big fan of using biscuits and for many years going back to the Emelo first one that came out and also a big fan of dowels. I have used gang drills before that is nothing new but this jig you have designed is. Right off the bat what is so good is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ dowels are cheap but Festool dominos go for over $300, THAT is a BIG SAVINGS right off the bat. BRAVO Andrew. I will buy one for sure, I think it has to be geared down to the 3/8 mark or smaller like 1/4. it is not the size of the dowl so much as is the patterns spread. I'm thinking of face frames and the like. Anyway, I'll be watching.
very innovative but it isn't anything i would buy esp at that price...
I think it is a great idea. My personal opinion is that dowels add strength whereas dominos are just there to help align the pieces
I don't know if someone has said this but the Festool Domino provides controllable lateral flexibility without sacrificing alignment and joint strength. Other than this it's just a dowel jig.
What a cool idea. I Agree with you when you say Festool domino needs a serious competitor.
I love the idea Andy. The Domino in the high school woodshop is tricky and expensive. This is a simple affordable solution. Two thoughts, one to go faster by better chip removal and second thought would be a companion tool for making the dowells.
I think this is a great idea. As an owner of both dominos, I don’t think I would buy it but the ability to make your own dowel stock and or buy it cheaply is intriguing. I hope you move forward on this project.
This is a great start... I own a Beadlock which makes a floating tendon. The device you have made (though impressive) is just a Dowling jig. I use this to make breadboard ends on tables. I needed a floating tendon not dowels to let the different grain patterns to expand without cracking. If you made another two drill holes in between the three you are there! And would save a ton of time compared to the Beadlock. I have to drill five separate holes for my Beadlock if it where only 2 steps it would be an improvement over the Beadlock.
One thing I like about the festool is that it can cut into endgrain for furniture legs like one would make for MCM furniture that doesn't require or even allow for 3 bits to go in at once. My concern in having 3 bits going at once would be how to best use the device on just such tasks.
I'd make it so 1 or two bits could be taken out. If an outside bit is taken out then the remaining 2 are spaced 5/8" center to center, so pretty tight for small work pieces.
I have thought this too, but with one drill bit that wobbling back and forth as it went into the wood. my thought was an axis and maze arrangement. as you push it down the maze would give you a back and forth motion and a spring as a return. like a plunge router.
its great idea. It does seem to be missing the changeability of sizing and spacing. Dominos can be used for wide surfaces as well as thin ones.
its a good concept Andrew as most of us have drills .. keep up the good work. i bought a v cheap trition duo doweleer at 120 usd ex display so going to try your adaptions you posted - thanks again for that : very helpful..
The first thing that comes to mind is not being able to make floating tenons on thinner stock like the Domino can (1” square stock stretcher into table leg or something). Maybe if the user could remove one of the bits so that there were only two very close together? Might even be a way for you to drop the price further, change it to a two bit design.
I would buy this. I took a hard look at the dowelmax and then went down the rabbit hole of making my own.
I would really like to see you try the handheld mortiser with a trim router build. Your concepts and the way you can improve things would be great.If you could use a die grinder instead of a router. Thay would make it very compact and would be interesting. I think this would be more of competition to a domino. Thank you for a great channel.
Andy, you are a force of nature. What I could do with a brain like yours!! I concur with your first assertion that Festool needs a serious competitor. However I feel the floating tenon concept is more unique and versatile than dowel jigs - regardless of the number of holes. How about sticking with your original motivation and designing a less expensive slot mortiser? Perhaps one -- like your current prototype -- that using an off-the-shelf tool motor to cut down on cost? I would pay $300 for a true Festool Domino alternative, but no more than $100 for any version of a dowel jig. Just my $0.02, but keep iterating! You are a one-man R&D Studio!
Excellent! I would definitely contribute to a Kickstarter project for this. Thanks for showing the prototype.
Absolutely pursue this idea. But I think what makes the dominio so appealing is the fact that it’s a machine that offers a different type of tenon. I think you should go for a dedicated motor and try for dust collection as well.
i'm down for it. it's an incredible design, very functional and handy
The advantage the domino has, is that you can mill 2 different sized holes width wise and create a bit of play on one axis.
I use to use dowels a lot in the past. I would restart using them with one of these dowel joiners. Quality is always on the top of my tool buying but I would like to see the cost a bit lower. I say march on!
I have seen something very similar. Tool callled "CMT333-03" made by italian CMT, used for boring holes for cabinet hinges. They also have one model with 5 drilling attachments.
Yes, different use case but similar mechanically
the first thing i would consider is the accuracy which im sure will be there. now if its have the cost of the domino you ask yourself how many dominoes have been sold. i think the idea of providing your own drill whether cordless or corded is great. if the domino motor goes the whole tool needs to serviced if serviceable. however if your drill goes the expense for another drill is acceptable since it used in other applications. another factor is that dowels are cheaper i believe than dominoes. the concept is excellent and i think you have a winner. Will i buy it as a hobbyist , it will depend how much woodworking im doing. However if im a pro the ROI is there. Also you can probable move from 3 drills to 2 to save on costs and size of unit. good luck
The video of your tool shows innovation that's Definitely in it's own niche, considering the price of previously introduced machines that are in the cost "stratosphere" Thxs for your hard work!
You can buy a Mafell or a Triton electric dowelling tool like this already. It works like a biscuit joiner.
And yes, anybody can buy reverse spiral drill bits, just have to go to Amana for that, or any supplier to cabinet shops.
love your stuff, I have always been a big fan and supporter of your ingenuity and entrepreneurship. I'm a hobbyist woodworker that is unwilling to afford a domino and have been using straight-up dowels for the past few years. I suspect going head to head with Festool in the large commercial market would be a struggle, but I believe there is an opening in the hobbyist arena where you would be competing with all the dowel jigs out there (yes I know you have a better tool, but garage woodworkers are a stingy lot) and possibly in the small professional shops where speed and functionality are everything. I think a few videos demonstrating speed, strength tests, and some application trials are in order to drive interest before plowing straight ahead. That being said, I think you have an awesome solution.
Great idea! Much faster than a doweling jig and way cheaper than a Domino. I would absolutely buy one!
I think you should be working on encasing it adding its own power too. Having the drill attachment at 350 then a motored one nearer the competition price would have everyone covered. I think it's a great looking tool, I'd buy one. Carpenter in the UK.
I'm a hobbyist that's making a kitchen out of ply and was looking for the best way to do the joinery. I started with a Jessem doweling jig and although it's extremely well made and accurate , I just couldn't face all of the clamping that was involved, different drill depths for faces and ends meant having 2 bits with stops that needed swapping or 2 separate drills. I made a couple of boxes with it and that was enough. I looked at the Domino and the Triton and the Lamello but finally settled on the Mafell Duo Dowler DDF40. More expensive than the Domino in the U.S but comparable in Europe. What I've taken from using the Mafell is this. Duo dowels are as strong or stronger than a single Domino so is there any reason to do 3 per plunge? Having 2 would cut costs. Adjustable depth stops are essential for dowels and using bit stops or tape is not an option. Being able to drill one handed without clamps is also essential IMO as is a fully adjustable fence. It has to be able to do miter joints. I'm not sure it could come close to a Domino or Mafell but it needs to be much better than the Triton and as accurate as the Jessem and come in at $200-250. I hope it takes off for you. Good luck.
I've been lusting after a Domino and lamenting the lack of a good, well-priced dowel alternative. I'd be interested in this for sure.
You are very clever and the concept is nice. But I am not a fan of dowels. Perhaps informed by years and years of dowel failure (although I do like Miller Dowels), dowels just don't seem to have enough cross grain glue holding surface. So you would have to demonstrate that the dowel stock can stay glued in the joint as well as a domino would hold. I don't use the Domino because of its expense. I like to use my PantoRouter or Horizontal boring machine to cut mortises and to make my own loose tenon stock. I have found my baltic birch plywood scraps make great loose tenons.
I do wish you the best of luck. You are extremely clever in your solutions.
A more direct comparison to your prototype is the Mafell dual doweller. The advantage of your tool is cost. Does the third drill really help? It seems to me to impose certain sizing requirements on the workpieces to be joined, a disadvantage.
I'd be interested in seeing joint strength comparisons. Also, would you anticipate accommodating different bit sizes? I have a Domino and I really appreciate the wide variety of tenons I can use for different applications.
i would consider buying this especially after watch your Triton dowel joiner
I appreciate the thinking. I like the bring your own motor idea. Shame about the two dowel triton machine being a pile. for me, a hand held trim router with a fence is a domino competitor, for 350 that’s a couple routers set for exact needs, and can be used for other shop tasks. A product I’d like to see Is an indexing adjustable fence as a router base for common trim routers. I think that’s the domino competitor. Lock the cordless router in and go.
Looks solid! The mafell duo doweler can be had for around $700 so a product like this needs to be less than half of the mafell. I'd pay around 250-300 for a product like this if it also included several bits and such.
Keep up the prototyping!! Curious to see more.
Looks like a really cool design however all you have is a really complicated doweling jig that doesn't allow for smaller projects. The beauty of the Domino is it's versatility in using different size tenons.
I've seen a video somewhere on TH-cam that compared the strength of biscuits, dowels and domino tenons to a real mortise and tenon. The domino was the winner....besting ever a traditional mortise and tenon.
Anything that is the same or better than existing popular tool for a cheaper price is going to do well. All your market research has been done for you.
My first time seeing your channel. If you started a kickstarter, I'd support it. Looking for a well machined alternative to a Domino at a better price point and yours looks solid and your attention to detail is impressive. Great work.
Kickstarter would be a great beginning
People are very very hungry for this concept.