First Ever Domino Competitor
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ก.พ. 2020
- If you are reading this you might be curious to know my thoughts on the Triton Duo Dowel joiner that I reviewed here:
• $200 Domino Alternativ...
If they had made this thing half way decent I probably wouldn't be contemplating the triple dowel joiner. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
It will sell, but not because it's good, but simply because of your influence over your viewers. It definitely doesn't look like domino competitor. Like a bicyle is not a competitor to motorcycle.
Harley Davidson has a pretty loyal following, or “influence over” their customers as you put it. But I’m pretty sure they can’t sell bikes as motorcycles just like my audience wouldn’t buy a sub-par concept from me.
@@AndrewKleinWW whatever you're doing with this tool - continue. In my opinion there's limited market for it. But you'll make money nonetheless from it. You have quite the following and so the marketing part of it is halfway done
@@laius6047 In what way is your analogy fitting? It's more like buying a rolling chassis instead of a turn-key racecar (though much more plug-and-play than that even), and that's very common in many racing series, for many of the same reasons this is a product the market needs.
I've never seen this channel before, but I'm here because I'm not interested in spending $1500 on a Festool product (yet again, I've already got half a dozen) to get locked into an ecosystem when a dowel is the obvious efficient solution. Problem is, jigs are slower and more fiddly, biscuits are weak for my purposes, and dominoes are an unnecessary speacialized consumable. The few doweling joiners that have ever existed are basically extinct (and even Freud's didn't seem to be great.) Something like this with 95% of the benefits of a power joiner at a fraction of the cost, and all the flexibility of a jig (in many senses: small to store, works with any sufficient drill motor, not a major financial commitment), simply doesn't exist in the market. The devil's in the details of execution, but suffice to say, if this was available today I'd be compulsively refreshing the UPS tracking history instead of writing this comment right now.
All you have to concede is that 1) dominoes or dowels are superior to biscuits in many applications, and B) plenty of people can't or don't want to pay for the Fesley-Toolidson $30,000 bagger, and there is your not-small market. A niche tool, sure, but hardly restricted to the guy's Patreon pool.
One major thing is that the domino has adjustments from tight-fitting to loose-fitting which is nice when you need a little wiggle room. If it can do that, I would gladly pay $450 for this
The reason we come to Andrew, is his innovation - outside the box fixing - and he fixes problems others have yet to, or felt they didnt need to.
This looks promising for sure man! One of the things that strikes me about the utility of the Domino is usefulness of the fence system. With multiple positive stops, reference marks and sight lines machine presents a system for reducing measuring and the time it takes to not only cut the mortises. In my mind a “serious competitor” would need those same features to get me to switch. I guess what I’m trying to say (again just my opinion and I’m certainly no pro! 😆) is that it’s more about the system as a whole than simply the ability to cut mortises quickly.
In any case, love your stuff and look forward to seeing what you come up with in the end! You are spot on about the Domino needing a serious competitor and I have no doubt you’re the one to do it! 👍🏼
I'm really interested in this. I remember you talking about the other day when we spoke at Workbench Con. I have a Domino, but I'm still interested because dowel stock is much easier to make/buy and much cheaper than the proprietary dominos. Plus, as you said, any drill can be used with this. Not a special machine. Keep going with it!
What a joy it is to watch someone that knows what they are doing. I learned a few things just watching you. Thank you.
Andrew, the world needs this!!! Please keep it up - superb work as always, cheers from the UK 👍
Love the concept! I'm all for pursuing it further
Wow! I like the way you think. Very unique solution. Hoping this gains some traction!
Whats really awesome is the amount of TH-cam creators commenting on this video. A lot of great feedback and support for you. You are a great idea guy.
I love this idea. I have been delaying a purchase on a domino hoping a competitor will do exactly what you are doing!
Love this idea. Changing bit sizes will be key, think about the range of joints the small Domino can do with 4mm to 10mm tenons. I know it would be difficult, but changing distance from outside bits to center would be good too, or offer different heads, thinking about smaller stock where 3 dowels won't fit. Could also remove one of the outside bits to work with smaller pieces. Fence registration into the face of a board or ply is a big pain with the domino out of the box, so jigs or helpers on yours would be great since you won't be supplying the motor and can focus on the parts that really improve user experience. I usually make jigs and fixtures when using the domino on the face of boards to keep it repeatable. Also key would be more depth travel on the fence. Think of putting 2 or 3 rows of dowels on thick stock like 2.5" while being able to use the same reference face and not flip the piece over and risk errors.
I 100% agree. The Domino isn't perfect, but it's versatile. 4mm-10mm dominos. It also has the ability to cut wider holes which makes alignment easier. There is DEFINITELY a market for a less expensive alternative and Andy is the right guy for the job.
Jack Bench Woodworking ocoh
On bith the Triton and Grizzly, bits are available in the different dowel widths.
Incredible design as usual 👊🏼👊🏼
Thanks Jimmy, so cool to know you are following along!!
Congratulations ! I really apreciate when people like to create some things, does not matter with benchmarking
great idea well needed, and about time Domino is out of this world price wise in Canada for what it is keep up the great work for your suggested price I am ready to buy now.
That’s a pretty cool idea!!!
Oh, and if you only have the 4th hardest wood in the world. Next time you’re here, I’ll give you the 3 that are harder than that. 😉 👍🏻
Anyway, I’m going to share this. I bet a ton of people will like it!!
Lmao sounds sus
That's sure shaping up to be pretty awesome, Andy! I really think you're on to something great. I'd say ramp it up and then let Festool buy you out. :)
Lol
NOOOO!!!!!! Festool would make this too expensive for the common DIY'er.
I really like this idea. Solid joints, and accuracy. I can think of three projects right now ...one is 2/3 complete on my bench and this would be a game changer!
Love the idea and the prototype! Happy to test it out and put it through the paces. ☺️👍🏼
Couple of thoughts. Firstly, In my mind, the inherent advantage of using 3 dowels would be anti racking. Putting all 3 in the same line doesn't help that at all. Gives you strength only in one way. Off-setting the one in the middle would give an incredible amount of strength if that is at all possible. If its not, then I would question why even do the third. Especially if it adds that much to the cost with gears etc, make the machine more compact and just have two and be done with it. It is quicker and far cheaper to just drill two and move on to the next position and do 2 more holes.
As far as price goes, the issues with the Triton are quality based, with a few simple design tweaks needed and it regularly sells for below 200. That is where this tool would sing. Selling it for 300 and over, I just don't see the benefit compared to other tools and jigs out there that are more versatile.
I think its a great idea, but at the end of the day, you are making a biscuit joiner with 3 drill bits and a gearbox. If companies can make a reasonable biscuit joiner for 100$, which has the motor, and the fence, and make money, it seems there is a way to add drill bits and a gear box and get it for 200. Given your affinity for Grizzly tools, which I am a fan of as well, I would reach out to them. This is what he specializes in. He can reach out to the factory that makes the existing tools, get the design tweaked to your specs, slap a new brand on it and ship it. No need to reinvent the wheel, when all you really want to do is make the Triton accurate and repeatable. Your video shows that can be done.
I love the idea and ingenuity shown, just feel like your trajectory is a bit off. This is over complicated for what you have stated you needed, and less convenient while being potentially expensive than a subpar competitor its made to beat.
Jeff Krayenvenger I like the concept, but practically, I think by offsetting the dowels you would be required to make them smaller so they are not too close to the surface, at that point you'd be better off to just have larger dowels, centered (in my opinion) if we were talking about thick stock I think your idea has merit but typically this tool, (or the domino) are going to be used with 3/4 inch stock, maybe 4/4, for at least one of the 2 pieces being joined.
The idea of hiring the manufacturer of the Triton to make a version with tighter tolerances is an interesting thought.
What if they are not drills but 1 or 2 flutes end mills? I can think of a couple of ways to keep it firm (without pinty drills) and one way to give a little bit of side play. I have the feeling that the biggest selling point of the domino is that you don’t have to be crazy precise and it would still work. Even a millimiter or two would make alignement easier and I think the dowel would still work as one dimension stay the same... would need testing. It’s just the seed of an idea but I do believe the market would appreciate easier alignement.
Love this idea! The best part is to make it affordable for those of us weekend project folks. I think you should pursue this idea further.
This is really exciting and I think marketing it as a domino competitor is a fantastic idea - you don't need to waste precious seconds explaining what it does. 95% of your market will already know it's place in their shop. I love the prototype and I can't even imagine what improvements you will make in the final version.
Here's a few non-obvious pain-points about our domino where I think your tool provides a better solution:
1. It has a tendency to walk away. It's not too bad, but it's enough to make me second-guess the mortises. I think your cork rubber (if that's what I saw on the faceplate) would be a great solution. Also the brad pointed drill bit in the center helps!
2. The domino takes some getting used to. I think your tool will feel more comfortable (using the owner's own drill), be lighter, and familiar. Employees wouldn't need as much training to learn bit/tenon sizes, depth adjustments, etc. If they've drilled a pilot hole, they can use your tool!
3. Forgetting to change a critical setting on the domino can leave you with sub-par joints. If you change domino size, you have to adjust like 3 settings on the tool in addition to the bit. Forgetting or missing the index on just one setting can really mess things up. Your tool would just have a depth stop - that's much easier!
Hope this helps! -Davis
$350 still seem like a lot imo. That's a third* of what the domino costs and w/o a systainer, spare parts, a drill battery, charger, etc.
I could cut some corners and go cheaper, but I don't think thats the right thing to do
@@AndrewKleinWW probably not if you're going for a very good product, I agree!
Also solving the "expnesive domino problem" is a very nobel and much needed thing to do :)
I was just saying though and hopefuly giving you feedback, I personaly would invest another 500-600 bucks and get the real deal if your product costs $350
Festool is about to raise prices again, $350 might end up 1/4 of the cost of the Domino.
I would say it depends if you're only targeting professionals that will put a high value to the benefits for speed and ease of use to maximize their productivity.
Otherwise, IMO, it would be a hard sell for hobbyists when there are cheaper options like the Rockler Beadlock® Pro Joinery Kit... While other products like a Dowel Max may still be competitive with its greater versatility, despite being slower and harder to use...
Build it in China for 20usd
Count me in as a customer for the "Throuple Jointer"!
Excellent! I would definitely contribute to a Kickstarter project for this. Thanks for showing the prototype.
Yes!!! Great concept. Simple and you can use with any drill. Dominos do need a competitor.
The Triton might not be perfect out the box, but with some work its a good tool for the money at only $200. To try and sell this at $350 without a motor seem foolish. The idea off using a drill to power it only has one real advantage ease of manufacturing for you. But has plenty of disadvantages, the fact you need two hands to operate it because there's no attachment between the drill and fence , makes the tool unbalanced, and makes the tool longer than the competition. If you could make it permanently mountable to a popular $40 angel grinder that people could buy off Amazon and attach them self would be very cool. Save on shipping and manufacturing for you with the body and motor and makes it a much more direct competitor to mafell and festool.
This is honestly the best way. Holding a drill seems much more awkward than holding the grinder - which would be a much closer feel to the domino.
I like the angle grinder idea.
I agree that the separation of the motor introduces sort of a pivot point that you need to focus on keeping straight, where an integrated motor/ handle gives you leverage on the tool
Angle grinder might run too fast and blue the drill bits, especially on larger diameter bits
Thomas Doherty I have to agree if it was a standard grinder speed. I'm guessing maybe there is a gearbox in the head of the grinder that gets the wheel to that 20,000 RPM range and turns the rotation of the motor 90 degrees. I would imagine the triton either has a gearbox or an electric motor designed for a specific drive speed.
Isn’t one feature of the Domino that the dowels can move left to right? With dowels, the spacing needs to be perfect otherwise you cannot join two workpieces.
Exactly. This was and always will be the problem with any doweling system. Move just a bit...and mis-alignment. The domino has 2 setting to make the slot wider. I always try and avoid using the wobble out setting if I need racking strength.
This was the brilliance of the domino concept, because the domino fixing has flat edges it can move side to side slightly but still have plenty of contact area for glue. If a dowel is put into a slot it only has two tiny contact points and therefore forms a weak joint.
The thing about the dual dowelers is the spacing is 1 1/4" on center. If you set it up the same as a biscuit jointer, the dowels would be perfect every time. The thing about biscuit jointer is they are made more for the ability to align the pieces - it really adds no strength. Dowels do. Wiggle room takes away accuracy.
Bro! Want this in my life! Move forward with this quickly cause this is a winner!
This shows a lot of promise. It's in the sweet spot between a Domino and the BeadLock nightmare that Rockler has bought out. We use counter-rotating bits in our CNC every day, so no big deal. I built a Morris chair with the BeadLock system and immediately bought a Domino. Can't wait to see how this product gets developed...
Yes, yes, and yes. For a while I've known that I would one day put down the money for a domino because there wasn't a comparable option I liked... but the cost is just so prohibitive.
I like your work Andy, always have. I just don't think this is worth your time. I can get a beadlock for $105. I can get a doweling jig for even less. I could find a mortiser on craigist or buy a router for under $350. If I'm doing enough work to need the speed, I'm getting a domino. If I'm a hobbyist, I'm sticking with one of the other options. I just don't see a market at that price.
If you can make it from off the shelf jellybean parts and cut it to $150, then you have something.
SkewToob I’m with you here. I’m not a cheapskate, but I did experience some sticker shock when $350 was mentioned. I was imagining a price point $80-$180. Dunno why, that was just my gut estimation.
Where can you get a beadlock for $ 105? The one I saw on Amazon was $ 170.
@@jacklucas7265 Must have been on sale at the time. $150 at Rocker. Either that or my brain transposed numbers.
@@jacklucas7265 I just bought one on Rockler.com on sale for $105.00 a couple weeks ago. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Cheers!
I'd be in the $100 camp too. For the hobbyist market, affordability often will outweigh efficiency. And at that price point, I'm not sure Andrew could develop this with the quality of materials and craftsmanship that he usually strives for and still have enough profit margin left to make the venture worthwhile. It's an interesting concept and I'm sure the way Andrew would execute it would make it worth much more in terms of quality, but for me, the ability to drill three holes simultaneously is not going to be worth the cost. And for someone more production-minded, they're going to prefer the domino.
love your stuff, I have always been a big fan and supporter of your ingenuity and entrepreneurship. I'm a hobbyist woodworker that is unwilling to afford a domino and have been using straight-up dowels for the past few years. I suspect going head to head with Festool in the large commercial market would be a struggle, but I believe there is an opening in the hobbyist arena where you would be competing with all the dowel jigs out there (yes I know you have a better tool, but garage woodworkers are a stingy lot) and possibly in the small professional shops where speed and functionality are everything. I think a few videos demonstrating speed, strength tests, and some application trials are in order to drive interest before plowing straight ahead. That being said, I think you have an awesome solution.
Aloha Andrew,
Good prototyping. I had fewer tools to do mine when I was needed to keep a shop going for a contractor on 'Base Housing'. I've always shied away from Domino's since they were pricy and seemed just too beyond the needs of a general woodworker. Even 'Biscuits' have their limits.
If I wasn't disabled now, with all the 'Whiz Bang' of CNC and CAD-based tools, I'd use a gear set-up that allows you to pivot your drills spacing, using 'idler gears' to vary the spacing yet maintain the same rotation.
I really like your prototype, hope to see more of it as you work out its design.
A lot of my accessories later were later thought of and picked up by toolmakers. I've been out of action now for about 8 years. Vertigo 24/7 makes me not feel safe enough around 'man-eating shop tools. Rehab sent me back to Collage and I did well with today's CAD Classes, but I'm still too slow to be productive as I was before. I was into CAD just as digital was becoming available to common P/C's.
I'd do more today 'if'... but vertigo and loss of pay have taken its toll on too many things in my life. Keep working out your ideas and learn from your mistakes, they are truly the best things to learn.
Aloha, Mark Baker
P.S. don't let comments steer you away from your ideas, work your ideas into working models as you did with your prototype. Don't let the 'apples to oranges' simplicity comparison get any traction. Dowels can be made cheaply or be brought cheaply, much cheaper than baskets or Dominoes of any size.
One advantage I see with the domino, biscuit joiners, and mafell/triton dowel machine is ergonomics. I find drill add-on's awkward to use. Could you build it to use an angle grinder as the power source? It would complicate the gearbox as you would have to have gear reduction as well, but the form factor seems to be proven for these machines.
There are a few biscuit joiners that have design commonality with the Domino 700, but when you first see them they appear awkward though ergonomically they’re more intuitive.
I don’t think we’ve seen any T-handle or pistol grip joiners‽
Looks like maffell only with three instead of two drills. I don‘t see any room between Lamello, Domino and Mafell Duo dübler
Hi, there!
That is exactly what I thought. Also you can use the Mafell as a 32mm system boring guide. That is what makes it so useful. The other two have the advantage of possible movement in one direction to keep the user error low. I wouldn't buy this "invention".
Regards,
Etna.
Exactly what i thought. Also the Mafell has only 2 drills which makes it better for smaller joints.
@@yosefjann and U have different Drill sizes
I think this is an awesome idea, I could see myself buying one. I do little projects around the house not enough to buy a domino, but at a lower cost I would invest in your idea.
I love the idea Andy. The Domino in the high school woodshop is tricky and expensive. This is a simple affordable solution. Two thoughts, one to go faster by better chip removal and second thought would be a companion tool for making the dowells.
Slightly similar: Triton TDJ600
Only 2 holes, wide apart. Quality seems to be an issue.
$350 for 3hole with quality would be excellent.
The plate on that machine wobbles. It's difficult to index it accurately. I purchased one and returned it.
The Triton sucks..sorry Triton tried it 3xs had issues everytime
The maffel duo dowler is a similar concept only, much better quality.
@@hardnox6655 the felissati is a way better product and only an hundred bucks more
@@patricelebrasseur5649 Thanks for the info. I've searched and can't find a Felissati Dowler anywhere. they must have stopped making it.
I like the idea, don't like the price. This feels more like a dowel jig version two. 350 for a dowel jig?
Definitely an interesting concept you have. I love the idea of "bring your own motor" by using what drills you already have. Similarly you could use a router if the design was built around it as most woodworkers have a small router. Like some of the comments below, I don't think three dowels in a singular plane will increase the strength factor to be compared to a domino. Putting the middle one offset will greatly increase the strength as your distributing the force or load over multiple planes.
I think this is a great idea. As an owner of both dominos, I don’t think I would buy it but the ability to make your own dowel stock and or buy it cheaply is intriguing. I hope you move forward on this project.
Since i do have a domino i'm biased, but still. Lateral setting in the domino is very handy (doesn't need to align perfectly), and it's better suited for mortise/tenon imo(of small stock). Looks nice tho
That's what I thought. As it is, this invention competes with the Mafell Duo Doweller rather than the Domino in my opinion.
Only about 7 more years on the Domino patent countdown.
I was under the impression that patents can be renewed.... but I could be completely wrong, and must be. Cheers!
@@JDeWittDIY There are renewal fees you have to pay to maintain the patent for the full 20 years. but no you can't extend it beyond that.
only ? then you'll find a dewalt one with brutal start motor and mediocre precision.
@@krtwood Thanks, that's good to know.
Andrew, this is really an interesting idea and I am looking forward to seeing progress. One thing to be aware of, IMHO, is that people that have a doweling jig like the dowel max or the Jessem doweling jig can drill three holes in about the same amount of time. They are also set up to make perfectly “situated” holes when you need an “odd” pattern. I think for yours to be competitive the price needs to be closer to those high end dowel jigs. Also being able to index the next set of holes off of the first set would be important. But after seeing what you did with your vise, I have no doubts you can get this figured out as well. Good luck Sir.
I just bought the Domino last week! I love where this is going. If this was available hen I was looking for Domino competitors I would have bought your prototype 😂. My vote....make this thing a reality and take my $........subscribed
First off I love your innovation. Very impressive prototyping, but I am going to say I'm not thrilled with the concept.
I feel like really this is a dowel jig competitor not a domino competitor. Dowel jigs are sub $100 so at $300 for a non all-in-one tool is a hard sell.
This seems to offer only a slight advantage over dowel jigs (advantage being 3 holes at once). In my book dowel jigging is easy, other than the fact that you need to get your spacing dialed in on both sides. Biscuits have slop, as do Dominos (when set to wider than the insert) using them in a panel glue up. For panel glue ups, putting 3 dowels on top of each other doesn't help with much, over a single dowel or biscuit.
I personally would prefer a better designed dowel jig (more rigid with a better system to transfer the hole to the second piece), and if you want to do more than one hole, have a pop out index to register hole spacing.
Alex Funiciello hezletp
Have you seen the Jessem 8350? Is this the type of sturdy doweling jig you are looking for?
@@brianm5428 Thanks, that one looks pretty solid.
Weeeelll... There's the Maffell Duo-Dübler that does the same thing...
But that is so priced near the festool domino price range.
Yeh but it's $1000 so there is room for a low priced option, though I think $350 is way too expensive.
Andrew... We are still holding our breaths..!!! Hahaha... Looking forward with this project of yours...
What a cool idea. I Agree with you when you say Festool domino needs a serious competitor.
At $350 or less, I'm 100% in.
If you modified it so that the engine was a compact router and you sold a modified plunge base, then you would be talking. As is? Not that better or faster than a quality doweling jig.
its a good concept Andrew as most of us have drills .. keep up the good work. i bought a v cheap trition duo doweleer at 120 usd ex display so going to try your adaptions you posted - thanks again for that : very helpful..
Love the concept. Dowels are so much more available and for the average DIY woodworker, like myself, Festool is way out of our league. Love the ingenuity and, as an entrepreneur, I appreciate your thoughts about the future revenue stream with specific drill bits.
*Festool has left the chat*
😂🤣😂
🧢
You need to hook up with AvE on TH-cam. He occasionally takes CNC projects from the community.
No he doesn't. He said he would after he bought a $500K 5 axis CNC with all that Patreon money. He said he wanted to "give back" by doing projects for people but it was all just bullshit talk to keep people tuning in.
@@OU81TWO maybe you should check out his channel. He has made multiple videos. Makes you look foolish when you dont know what you are talking about.
I like the idea and for those who have not invested in a domino, this could really be a great alternative. For those who like/prefer dowels this could really speed-up their shop time on projects.
Wow! Thats awesome & amazing. I am certainly interested and I will definitely share this video with all my maker friends. Also I work for a custom furniture manufacturer. This would be an excellent addition to some of our designs.
Needs more innuendo
Thats all I could stomach
That Cremona guy is kind of an ass & a perv. I stopped watching his videos, all he talked about is crotch and figures. so disturbing.
I know right...? Weird that my next video in the queue is about thinly sliced crotch.
Air tight idea
Shouldn't you be shoveling snow? And cutting up another tree? Oh and getting that tree hauling trailer completed?
Seems more like a high priced dowel jig competitor rather then a low price domino competitor. Looks cool, but I would not be a buyer.
This was exactly my first thought. It hit me that it was just a very fancy and expensive dowel jig. I'll wait for the Domino knockoffs.
I would buy this. I took a hard look at the dowelmax and then went down the rabbit hole of making my own.
I'd love to see you continue with this idea Andy! I think it is very promising! I do agree with others here though, I think comparing it directly to a domino could prove more damaging than it is worth? One of the thinks I love about the domino is the 4mm domino cutter, which is so handy for so many small jobs! I often just cut the mortise with the domino and then make a traditional tenon. So I guess my thought is - how can you approach the customisation of cutter size and joint size to make it more useful across a very wide selection of applications? I love the idea though and think that you are definitely on to something! Please keep going with it!
If only i knew what a domino was...this would probably make much more sense.
It's a $1200 loose tenon cutter made by festool similar to a biscuit joiner but stronger.
You built a dowelling jig. It has NONE of the features which make the Domino the great design it is.
i have to agree. andys dowel jigs looks great but its not a domino . it cant be and wont be . the domino is easily in the top 5 tools ever made. the domino is fast, accurate, easily adjustable, really strong joints and actually prity cheap considering the work it does.
Could you expound further?
@@n8guy just speed acuracy and strength . a loose tennon is really strong , you can make the slot wider if you want alignment with some strength and a bit of play. a dowel jig is slower and needs a lot more care to get it accurate where as a domino is verey easiy to use accuratly. andys dowel jig will have a lot of great features similar to a domino like the fence and being able to hold it to a mark and drill from there but its still a dowel jig
MelbourneAlan I didn't think of the alignment issue, that's actually a pretty good point, in that you really need to be accurate on your placement.
Thank you!! I've ALWAYS thought there should be a competitor for the domiNO! I'd buy it! Keep the process coming #anotherkleindesign
The video of your tool shows innovation that's Definitely in it's own niche, considering the price of previously introduced machines that are in the cost "stratosphere" Thxs for your hard work!
very innovative but it isn't anything i would buy esp at that price...
Great idea! Much faster than a doweling jig and way cheaper than a Domino. I would absolutely buy one!
I've been lusting after a Domino and lamenting the lack of a good, well-priced dowel alternative. I'd be interested in this for sure.
I just saw Kings mag feeder build and he said to look up your site which I did and even subscribed after seeing you build this new Dowling jig. I'm a big fan of using biscuits and for many years going back to the Emelo first one that came out and also a big fan of dowels. I have used gang drills before that is nothing new but this jig you have designed is. Right off the bat what is so good is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ dowels are cheap but Festool dominos go for over $300, THAT is a BIG SAVINGS right off the bat. BRAVO Andrew. I will buy one for sure, I think it has to be geared down to the 3/8 mark or smaller like 1/4. it is not the size of the dowl so much as is the patterns spread. I'm thinking of face frames and the like. Anyway, I'll be watching.
Nice idea Andrew! i like it :) Thank you for sharing the video with us! 💖👌👍😎JP
What a neat idea! If it gives precision and ease of use, with a little speed improvement over dowel jigs etc., it might be worth while. But at that price point, it has to be first class at the way!
This is a great start... I own a Beadlock which makes a floating tendon. The device you have made (though impressive) is just a Dowling jig. I use this to make breadboard ends on tables. I needed a floating tendon not dowels to let the different grain patterns to expand without cracking. If you made another two drill holes in between the three you are there! And would save a ton of time compared to the Beadlock. I have to drill five separate holes for my Beadlock if it where only 2 steps it would be an improvement over the Beadlock.
I would buy it that's for sure - keep up the amazing work
I always love the effort you put into your design. As an aside..I'd love to see this line boring design made smaller for cribbage boards and the like (Maybe 5 small holes at a time, etc).
One of my favorite features of the domino would be the indexing pins. Normally, if I mark the line I am using a wider slot. Where I can hook an indexing pin to the end of the work and reference from there. Add indexing pins - and I could see loving it as an attachment, even at the $300 price point. (Granted, I have the domino and wouldn't need both, but I would have considered it previously)
Without indexing pins, at the $300 price point, I'd lean towards a doweling jig.
Regardless, beautiful work as always.
i would consider buying this especially after watch your Triton dowel joiner
I love it! the fact that I can use my own drill is a big plus for me. On other devices, if the motor shucks out, the hole device is junk. if it were cordless, you would have to have batteries for it and only it. with it using the owners drill you can couple it to whatever brand of drill (and battery system)you already have. You can also put it in the drill press for perfect vertical drilling. Using the reverse bits you can also require fewer moving parts. I wouldn't change a thing!
Love the idea I think your doing great things over there man. Please pursue this and I'll be looking for the Kickstarter program for it WHEN it comes online
Love to have a Domino, the cost stops me dead in my tracks! Bring it on Andrew
Alan Barnhill if you can’t stop thinking about it, buy it.... i’m happy with my mafell ddf40. Third dowel does not add anything.
This is my first youtube comment ever, but I just wanted to say how awesome what you are doing is. I was just complaining that for a weekend warrior like myself all the regular jointing options kinda suck. A Domino competitor like this would absolutely make sense for me and I would easily spend $350 if it means I can make a bigger project over two weekend days
Hell yea! Make this thing happen. A plastic shroud around the gears, alog with a depth stop seems like a pretty rad piece. Another idea ive always had for the festool is a bottom ledge where you could adjust the height and be able to "clamp" the tool do any working piece. Let me know how i can get a prototype and test this bad boy out
As noted my many, the important feature of the domino is loose fit. For dowels to compete, they need to be placed so accurately that panels will be perfectly aligned. CNC will do this. For a hand tool, the best route is probably a full width jig (say 600mm) that adjusts to the exact width if the panel and and can allow two or more multi-dowel hole sets (on both panels) to be drilled to sub 0.1mm accuracy. It would still be slower than a domino- but more accurate. No more relying on the glue. People that assemble panels for a living will still use the domino, but if the price was right the jig would sell to everyone else. And that is a bigger market...
Many valid comments so far. Here's my spin...
First of all: I like your ingenuity. It's a fine tool you made there and it's great if it works for you. I also liked how other people tried to build their own low budget domino from a router and some plywood.
But here's my opinion on trying to market it as a competitor....
There are basically three systems in the market: Festool's Domino, Lamello's Lamello, Mafell's Duo Doweler.
Domino: Great for floating tenons, framing, table making. Lots of stability, can be forgiving with the "loose" settings.
Lamello: Good for furniture work, sheet work. Ingenuity with P-System (Clamex), making this more than an alignment tool. Quite forgiving.
Duo Dowler: It drills holes. I guess if it wasn't for the 32mm-System, there would have been less use to it. Not forgiving with dowels....
All three systems have some things in common:
1. They are ready to go machines (basically an angle grinder with an attachment to it).
2. They have a reference plate on the bottom, allowing you to place your stock on the table and have a perfect reference surface.
3. The adjustable fence is a nice add-on for larger stock, but most of the time the flat surface on the bottom is the best for standard 19mm ply, MDF, etc. in furniture work.
4. They have reference stops at the sides to align the tool quickly.
5. They have dust collection.
I think the greatest flaw of your design is the separate power drill. It makes it very bulky to use and gives you two tools to align. You cannot use your table as reference surface.
As some people mentioned a dowel jig:
I see a dowel jig being either a light weight helper you can hold with one hand while you handle your heavier drill, OR a larger piece with multiple holes you setup and clamp to your work piece to have hands free for drilling and do repetitive, matching holes quickly.
With a three-drill-gear-slider-fence-block that has its weight and a separate drill I'd be not so sure. If it was the only option, it'd be a leap forward to a dowel jig. But having options already, I'm not sure.
The power drill has to deliver 3x power (+loss to the gears), so drilling three holes individually may be just as fast.
The price point....
Hard to tell. Makita and DeWalt got biscuit joiners which are AFAIK the few real competitors for a Lamello Classic X, each ~250$€ (all other 50-100$€ toys suck). Triton got its spin on the duo doweler (which sucks right out of the box) for ~200$€.
A contraption for 300-350$ that still requires a good power drill, that may be harder to use, is not that much of an alternative for a hobbyist than buying a good dowel jig.
In perspective: The Wolfcraft biscuit joiner attachment for an angle grinder is ~50$€?
Right and left turning drills in one tool are a great source of error. Also: Only available from you.... Closed system.... What's the advantage over Festool or Mafell?
The workflow:
Domino or Lamello-like machines are switched on, quickly aligned and plunged in, align, plunge, align, plunge.... turned off. Both hands on the machine all the time, super safe, super convenient.
Yours:
Align the contraption, get the drill, attach the drill, check the contraption again, turn on, push...push...push...done one plunge, detach the drill, put the drill away, goto the next mark.
If the drill was fixed to the contraption, it'd become more handy, but maybe harder to maneuver.
I think you'd have to improve some more and have some more system-gadgets that makes this tool equal to all three competitors.
i'm down for it. it's an incredible design, very functional and handy
This is awesome. I'd consider one once its polished. Looks like a great concept.
Love it! I’ve never used the Triton, but if in fact it’s quality is poor, I could imagine myself one day investing in one of these, when a project warrants it.
I speak from experience on the Triton:
th-cam.com/video/9-9AwrM8QSk/w-d-xo.html
I will always buy any product from you, you are excellent, ps my vise and my wood taps rock I use them all the time
So excited to see what comes from this
Very interesting concept !! Something I would be interested in it’s a similar idea the maffel DD but TD HAHA
Lamello zeta and Mafell duo doweler are direct domino competitors
This looks awesome. I would very much be interested in this.
I found your video as I was browsing after looking at the Mafell Doweller for $1500.00 , which makes it more expensive than the Festool Domino. I think there is a larger market than some comments may lead to believe. There is nothing out there between a doweling jig for your drill and the Mafell. I know I'm late to the party , but I just found you. Keep up the amazing work.
I for one would go for it that would purchase one or more initially and bits I think you're onto something best wishes I'll be rooting for you
Great idea, stay the course and if feasible bring it into production...
I have thought this too, but with one drill bit that wobbling back and forth as it went into the wood. my thought was an axis and maze arrangement. as you push it down the maze would give you a back and forth motion and a spring as a return. like a plunge router.
Andy, you are a force of nature. What I could do with a brain like yours!! I concur with your first assertion that Festool needs a serious competitor. However I feel the floating tenon concept is more unique and versatile than dowel jigs - regardless of the number of holes. How about sticking with your original motivation and designing a less expensive slot mortiser? Perhaps one -- like your current prototype -- that using an off-the-shelf tool motor to cut down on cost? I would pay $300 for a true Festool Domino alternative, but no more than $100 for any version of a dowel jig. Just my $0.02, but keep iterating! You are a one-man R&D Studio!
As someone who uses dowels on most of my projects, I'll say the biggest advantages to using a Domino are 1.) the speed you can cut the mortises and 2.) the option for a loose setting. There are other advantages but those are the two that stick out to me whenever I consider if the Domino is worth the price. The jig you've made doesn't allow for the loose setting and I would guess it's not quite as fast as a Domino though it's probably somewhat faster than a traditional dowelling jig.
I think three dowels per plunge is too much. It can't be used on as narrow stock as a domino or more traditional dowelling jigs. Drilling three 3/8" holes into end grain simultaneously sounds like a nightmare. I'm just imagining there being too much force required to drill the holes accurately with just the user holding the jig against the workpiece.
I'm not as concerned with price right now because if the concept or idea isn't convenient and unique, who cares what the cost is? I think your best bet is something that looks like a miniature, portable, horizontal slot mortiser. There are little imitation domino jigs that a router fits into and mimics the oscillation effect. Something more refined than that would be great. I'm picturing a jig that can hold a variety of router bodies in a carriage that can slide front to back and side to side with necessary stops to dictate plunge depth and width.
Anyway, I always admire your dedication and thought process on the various things you've created and invented. This is no different. Good luck and I'm happy to discuss this more if you're interested.
Multiple dowels make a strong joint. Different sized bits are where this gets even better.
I love the concept with dowels I would spend the money for it and for sure is cheaper then the Festool. Thanks you have a great idea going.
I love this idea, I'm not aware of any tool like this on the market, in regards to doweling. I think it would be more appealing if you had different size dowel options as well as a 2 hole option for thinner stock like legs for nightstands etc.
either way it's a cool idea and probably something I would buy.
Super awesome idea and execution, as always. Everything you do is top tier. With this one, I love it, but would have a really hard time paying over $200-250, as for the amount of woodworking I do, I'd sooner make/buy a single doweller, and just have it take more time. So I'm probably not the consumer you're aiming at. If I were in the market for something to help on speed and Domino-type joints, I think I really would consider this at your suggested price point.