I am now addicted to wanting to buy nothing but tools and I am a gift-seven year old grandmother! I wish this had been my career! Working with wood and creating beautiful and useful things is my new addiction!
Great video for educating people. I, like you, have both.... LOL actually, both domino machines, and 2 biscuit joiners. I always use the biscuits for making cabinet panels, and smaller, less "stressed" projects. I use the domino's for custom built ins, window benches, cabinet face frames, etc. Where strength and precision are necessary. Keep up the great videos...
Great comparison, thanks for the posting. I own both tools and like them both for different reasons. Some points for folks to consider: •The plate jointer came first, and the Domino is heavily modeled off of it •Technically, both tools create floating tenon joints. The biscuit is more like a spline in form and function, so in other words, one could make a blind spline for a table top and it might be a faster approach if there’s enough quantity to justify the added time of fabricating the spline material from thin plywood. (That’s a big “if”). •Biscuits are compressed plywood, so they have long grain in 2 directions that ends up with half the strength of long grain all in the same direction, but we get some strength in both directions. •With modern glue like TiteBond, The glue is where the strength of a joint resides. •Dominos make stronger joints because they get the glue deeper into the workpiece than a biscuit can go, and they orient all of the wood’s strength in the direction that the joint will be worked. •Both machines can make very strong joints simply by offsetting the tenons, which then allows us to make ganged/multiple tenons at each joint. •The Dominos come in narrower widths, so it can make smaller, stronger joints than the biscuit joiner.
Good point about cutting a dado for a spline. Additionally a biscuit jointer works great for cutting tongue and groove on hardwood flooring that needs to be cut to fit in certain spots.
Of course, the price of a Domino includes Festool's engineering and design development costs, plus the cost of creating production lines, marketing costs, etc. That all adds up. Prices will come down after Festool has recovered its initial costs, its patents have expired, and competitors start copying and undercutting it. I remember when biscuit joiners were new, and so expensive I could only dream of owning one. I saw a model online at Amazon today for $30.00....
Big big price difference. For most of us the biscuit joiner is the best option. If strength of the joint is the issue, use a dowel jig. Cheap and effective. The domino is a nice tool but for the price unless you're operating a production shop it's a toy that will not give the DIYer a return on investment.
@Daniel Gauci I see where you're coming from but I dont know any diyers that are going to spend $2000 on a festool domino system over a 2 or 3 hundred dollar biscuit joiner and a dowel jig. I'm a contractor and I dont even see myself buying any festool products over all the makita and dewalt tools I currently run
@Daniel Gauci I get that too but this is one tool, if you used that logic to build your shop you'd need a second mortgage just for tools. I dont buy tools that cost almost 10 times the amount of the average tool and I dont have the room for a shop and I've got about $20 000 into just my mobile set up
@Daniel Gaucithey sell because they are a tool system that work well in fine finishing and in cabinet shops. I'll bet 99 percent of sales are to professionals running shops or doing high end finishing not to the diy crowd. My makita track saw does the same thing at well under half the price and is also not built with an abs housing. It will also use the festool tracks and the systainer it comes in is made by and compatible with festool.
Thanks for the breakdown. I was unaware of the difference between the two, minus the huge price tag. That really helped me in my decision making. Now to decide on which biscuit joiner to purchase.
As an amateur with woodworker, i typically feel overpowered with the entire arrangement th-cam.com/users/postUgkxrYREG3-7f1Aqk9ams3ZESRNzGnfdUtyQ . Be that as it may, this arrangements drove me through with much clarity and effortlessness woodplans. Works i now work like a genius. That is great!
Great explanation of both tools. I'd love a Festool, but it is so expensive for what it is and I just can't justify the cost for the little use I'd have for it. I have a the Dewalt biscuit joiner that serves me well for part alignment and I even have a Ryobi micro-biscuit joiner that I inherited from my dad... that is actually very useful for when I align hardwood edge bands on plywood. It uses the super small R1, R2 & R3 biscuits.
I'd like to get a dewalt biscuit joiner after watching this, I've always thought festool was severely overpriced anyway, based on a wide variety of the tools and equipment they sell. I have a few dewalt pieces and the quality for price is excellent. Great video as usual, definitely made My mind up, thanks a million.
The most expensive item on a Festool product is where is says Festool 😁 We all know they make great high quality products. But as noted by others unless you are either a professional shop or a well heeled hobbiest are they really worth the money. A biscuit jointer isn't the perfect solution by any means. But they have their uses. Actually when I first got a biscuit jointer I used it for cutting tongue and groove on flooring that I needed to cut to fit. And I did use it for inserting biscuits in mitered cuts on fireplace enclosures etc. Would I stand on a joint relying one a biscuit? No way.
@@mpetersen6 Woodworking is only a hobby for Me so I'm more than happy with dewalt . Festool really is for like You said professionals. Thanks for the input by the way👍.
Great explainer. Over two decades of using a BJ, not just for edge jointing, and not a single failure. Plus I can buy biscuits at just about any hardware store… 👏🇦🇺✌️
I have just started woodworking, very amatuer at the moment just made my first chopping board, videos like yours are priceless to me, so many people always try to redirect you to there 'online store of plans' etc but if someone like me can easily.understand what your explaining then your doing something right! Keep up the good work mate
No problem, there isn't much woodworking support in the UK, it's not a massive industry over here. Would be great to see some start to finish tutorials! Thanks!
@@joebailey5141 Watch the TH-cam Channels of Peter Millard, Gosworth Handyman and Keith Brown. They are all three British and give you down to earth information on many aspects of woodworking.
@@joebailey5141 Have you checked out Axminster. They offer everything you can imagine including all the latest method tools. Do some research into MFT tables and have a look at the Axminster Parf guide system. And that is all UK based as well.
I would love to see you do a video on the dowelmax. It’s a very well made and accurate tool made by a family owned business. It’s also beautiful with the brass fittings
Dowel max works very well. Not quite as fast as a domino but still incredibly versatile. The joints can be made very strong also. I like it but would like to try a domino.
@@kevinpunter7960 I had the Mafell DDF-40 and ended up selling it. It's a great machine but the Domino is more versatile. Plus, it's hard to find metric sized dowels.
The slot on the biscuit grove is adjustable in depth on the machine. (Small screw, wrench came with it ) This will help tighten the slot, you need just a little room for tolerance.this does help, glue up should be done with a brush and coat all surfaces including the biscuit.
What an excellent demo! So carefully explained, compared on all points, great visuals, and very detailed tutorial. Great job! Audio has a bit of an echo, so a shirt mic would be nice. The Domino is superior on all counts but Dewalt costs $176, Festool costs $1200. No brainer which one I will buy until a cheaper domino comes up. Thank you!
Outstanding video as usual! You are truly talented at describing and teaching people in a easy going style. Kudos to you and keep up the good work. And of course, congrtulaitons on becoming a dadddy. Enjoy every moment...
I thought I'd add a few details as both a Festool Domino user and a user of biscuits in the past. The biscuit joiner I used mostly for aligning edge joined long grain boards and some trim boards around the perimeter of various projects and it did an OK job. The Domino functions within the Festool system. One of Festool's primary claims to fame is its dust collection and that is an important feature. Another commenter mentioned that dust collection is required for the Domino and that is correct because in the absence of dust collection, chips collect in the mortise and cause bit overheating. This makes sense when one considers that the Domino is basically a router that waggles. Imagine if you attempted to cut mortises with any power equipment without clearing the chips. A significant reason that dust collection as effective as Festool's is important relates to the health aspects of working with power tools.....woodworkers that use power tools, especially with some exotic hardwoods, can do serious damage to their pulmonary systems without proper protection and Festool does provide that advantage. In any case, I would urge anybody wanting to see what a Domino can do to visit a competent Festool dealer and have somebody do a demo. There are tricks for Domino success but they are not difficult to learn and once one learns the basics, it opens up a wide variety of applications. One thing that becomes obvious once one has mastered the basics is that the Domino allows degrees of accuracy and precision that the biscuit joiner cannot match. This may not matter to some people, but to others it can make a really large difference. Finally, I would never personally buy a Festool tool online unless I had already mastered the tool. The reason for this is that outfits like Amazon cannot provide any real support and there is no price advantage to buying online now that the internet tax collection is mandated. It is my experience that putting one's hands on the tool and even doing some evaluation demos gives more appropriate information for the individual than any TH-cam video, as valuable as they are, can ever hope to do....that said, to Bent's Woodworking....good work. P.S. - to the people who asked if this type of loose tenon could not be done with a router and an edge guide or a jig, the answer is yes.....but very slowly.....I have done that for years and the Domino, even with its limitations in sizes of tenons, is a much more productive solution in the overwhelming majority of situations. As to doing mortises on a router table....that's an exercise in frustration for the most part....don't ask me how I know.....it works OK for an occasional piece but it is highly inefficient and prone to problems, especially with dust collection. With all that said, OALA, EHOATAS.
In your "5 tools to get early," you mentioned a biscuit cutter. Thankfully, the next video on deck was an explanation of the tool and comparison to the Festool. You did a good job of demonstrating these tools. Thanks. I recently purchased the Festool 125 rotary sander and now I'm in love with the Festool brand.
Thanks for this, I do finish carpentry and have the same DeWalt joiner, I always wondered what the Domino was like, I've never held one. Great video! Maybe after my kids are past the diaper stage I'll buy my first Domino, lol
I picked up a biscuit joiner at the flea market (for $10) for a bookshelf project I was doing. Fortunately I had a planer to use, because the biscuits did NOT align the boards; the biscuits fit loosely in the slots causing my boards to be misaligned. Apparently, something is amiss with the $10 biscuit joiner, as it seems they are supposed to make a tighter fitting slot. I'm glad I watched this video. I had been considering a domino joiner, but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars to get boards to line up better in glue-ups. (and yes, I realize with more practice and a few other tips, I will get better glue-ups in the future)
Nice video. Learned something new about the Domino. I didn't realize you could do the slots such that the boards could be slid along each other for alignment. I have both a biscuit joiner and a doweling jig but use neither enough anymore to justify the Domino. Still, you did a good job explaining the different uses, pros and con of each so even though I'll likely never buy one I appreciate the knowledge.
Don T If you use a domino you may find that you start to do different types of joints. Domino's can do tenon like joints so that means you can do stronger joints.
Ghee, we generally don't comment on the ideas or opinions of other craftsmen or craft persons but we have been working in wood since age 14. The Mortise and Tenon joint as well as an oft forgotten "Doweling" process seems to be a dim reflection of our early apprenticing. At , 72, we would never claim easy victories or accomplishments. But it seems that some foundational skills are being lost. We still have a collection of hand saws and chisels that make perfect joints that have thus far held fast for fifty years. Good woodworking to all.
+Triton Memnon Even when you were a kid there was still commercial joinery techniques that were not traditional. I myself use a mixture of the two. People that are selling reasonably built costed products are going to use something like a Domino. Those at the upper edge of the marketplace are going to use more traditional joinery.
Great video, thanks for your comparison. I am just an occasional weekend warrior. My dad was an expert in woodworking made cabinets and countertops for a living, almost anything else as needed. I am still using his workbench that is as old as me. Me not so much. My skills and talent are elsewhere. Still I sometimes like to build things I need. And my dad would tell me, "A good tool is worth it's weight in gold. A crummy tool isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell."
The biscuits are compressed so that when you assemble the joint with a water based adhesive, the biscuit expands to lock the joint and take all the slop out of it.
Biscuit needs less accuracy and that little bit of play horizontally helps a lot during assembly. I did however find the domino worked very well for narrow parts in furniture which a biscuit would be impossible.
I've used and owed a biscuit joiner, Dowel Max and the Festool Domino. Of them all, I like the Domino the best. Is it worth the extra cost? It is to me. it is fun, fast and accurate. It is probably one of their best tools.
I use Duo-dowler, Domino and Biscuit joints and they are all have their place. I would think if it was just one tool to own the Domino would be the best for most people.
X2 on that. If I were young, and starting out all over...again, maybe I'ld consider it. I don't think my projects will suffer, cause I'm not using Dominoes.
Exactly. Festool seems like over engineered headache. I've used their mitre saw, fuck that thing. The handle sucks, and it's not any better than my dewalt. Haven't used the domino tool but I have never had much problems with biscuits, and like the op, I've used dowels as well. Never had issues.
If I had my time over again, maybe I would consider a domino joiner. But I bought my biscuit joiner over 20 years ago when domino's probably didn't exist. I only use my biscuit joiner 4 or 5 times a year, so buying a domino probably won't be worth it. I'm pleased to see that you recommend biscuits for table tops, as that is what I mainly use mine for.
Thank you for the video. Two things. First, I would like to see someone compare a single Domino strength to simply using two 5 cent Lamello Biscuits on top of one another. No one has done that. Even a clone Domino is 17 cents. Second, I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side. No sense in judging biscuits without using Lamello brand.
The adjustments are made according to the size of the biscuit. If you are using a size 20 biscuit, you select the size 20 option. Adjusting it down just one position to size 10 will give you issues.
This was a very good explanation of the two. Great video! I have the domino and I love it. I use it for joining boards and it works great but it's real advantage is in how versatile it is. It can make mortises on narrow stock like for crib rails I recently made. I didn't have to bother with cutting each stile longer so i could get a tenon out of it, I just cut it to size and then used the domino and what a joy it was!!!
I have a biscuit joiner and use it, but I also made a hand held doweling machine that works like biscuit joiner on boards of the same or different thickness
Two completely different applications intended. I own a domino and not a biscuit joiner, but I use cauls to clamp large panels and tops. I use the domino to join furniture parts. You can use it as an alignment tool if you choose but the tenons are beech and meant to be structural.
You can evaluate biscuits very cheaply to see if they're right for your construction needs. I bought a 3- wing slotting cutter, 5/32" kerf and used it on hundreds of joinery tasks before taking the plunge on a fully functional biscuit joiner tool. About the only joint I could not make with the cutter was a mid- panel slot, line an upside down "T", the joiner tool could, of course, handle that. I also found that 1/8"hardboard would serve as a decent enough spline so I made my own supply for doing counter top edging or drawer joints etc. Anyway, retired in 2000, did tens of thousands of biscuit joints, never needed a tenoner type tool.
This is a good overview but additional information that would be beneficial: Cost, time studies for various operations, ease of use, cleanliness, noise, and strength studies. Additionally, usage scenarios as the domino is extremely versatile. I went with the domino, but that’s because I’ve done a lot of research on it vs the alternatives. Woodworking on easy mode has value. Speed also has a lot of value. When doing multiple mortis and tenon connections along a panel, the domino is insanely fast and accurate/repeatable without error. Add in a need to make a miterbox (45 degree panel joints), the Festool kit attachments, and I’m not sure there’s a better solution. (Test first as it is possible to blow through if a setting is off). No need to measure, just set distance and go. If time is money and if a lot of hidden joining work is being done, the domino is a no brainer. Unfortunately, the price is expensive for those not making money from the work and in that case pocket screws, screws with wood caps, or dowels (with a good jig as a lot of crappy ones exist) make a lot of sense. Biscuits… are dead last on my preferred approaches, but I’m influenced by some bad experiences in my youth and maybe bad machinery is more the issue than the process. I’ve never been back, but I am biased against biscuits. Reading comments here people do seem to have good experiences, so I guess just make sure your biscuit machine is good. The last consideration is dust extraction. Almost all Festool tools put a lot of consideration into effective dust extraction, other tools/brands/jigs may not and this can also be a deciding factor. When doing installs in a business or house (onsite), dust can be hugely problematic. While a dust extractor doesn’t eliminate dust, there’s a huge reduction that can take place. The ability of whatever solution in use to connect to a dust extractor or vacuum is valuable. While a lot of work may take place in my garage, doing some work in the house and not filling the space with sawdust keeps my wife happy and me breathing (both strangle free and healthier lungs). The domino has dust extraction capabilities. Some biscuit joiners may have it, but I’m positive not all have it. “Why would idiots spend money on Festool?” Speed sometimes (but not anyways, as some tools suck), dust collection for onsite installs. Historically Festool has always been great at dust consideration which is huge with some clients if you’re in a finished environment or doing add on work. “Why does the Festool cord disconnect?” Because you plug a cord into your dust extractor on-site and then just switch the tool. The cord stays attached to the machine and hose.
I have and use both. The biscuit joiner is effecting and cheap for jointing boards edge to edge. The domino to replace traditional mortice and tenon joints. Dominos are much more expensive than biscuits.
Have had the Dewalt biscuit jointer for years. Like it very much, but the biscuits are pine, and I have found pullout and expansion issues when used with hardwood planks. I went to the trouble of making my own biscuits from hardwood, with a custom made jig. It works pretty cool, I use it to make the biscuits out of whatever wood I have to join, even pine, as I find it that easy a process. I will buy the domino as I could really use it for mitres, which the bisquit is all but uselss for unless the stock is wider than 3 inches, and even then it is often a struggle. I imagine the dominos would be a piece of cake to self fabricate in relation to the biscuits.
I have owned the Dewalt biscuit jointer for approx 20yrs, I have been looking at tge domino because I build alot of small boxes ect & the biscuit jointer is very limited as far as trying to join narrow pieces of wood, I like the loose tenon idea.
Blind Man60 You won’t regret buying the domino. I started out with a DEWALT biscuit joiner and bought the domino. I rarely use the biscuit joiner anymore. The domino just does so much more and has knockdown capabilities now as well.
Good review. Never heard of a domino joiner before this. I own neither yet but if I buy one it will be the biscuit joiner. The Domino joiner is a proprietary tool. If the domino manufacturers go out of business it is a paperweight. Biscuits are readily available everywhere. He basically talked me out of buying a domino just with the facts. Several people pointed out that dowels do the same thing, are cheap, and easy to get. With the increase of pocket screw systems that would be my go-to for the extra strength if I’m doing right angle joints like cabinets. Thanks for the honest comparison.
Huh? It doesn’t have to be an oval shape. A simple rectangle on a table saw will do. By the way dominos themselves aren’t proprietary, I buy aftermarket ones on amazon half the price of originals. Same exact shape minus festool logo. But in any case. Any rectangle shape on table saw will do. The important thing is thickness, not width, and how deep it goes into each side
You can buy biscuits in combinations of the 20, 10 and 0 as well as just in a individual size of a thousand for about $30 Woodworker's Supply and I guess Amazon also...
Cheap buiscuits are sometimes not exact in their dimensions. I recently bought a batch which was to thin so useless as an alignment, throw away the whole package.
Brent, great video, thanks. When I got my first biscuit joiner, did an experiment by cutting a joint in half. The biscuit swells with the application of the glue, not in the longitudinal direction but top to bottom. Because of the high cost of the Festool Domino, and the desire to incorporate live tenon joinery in my work, I've built a horizontal router table to accurately cut mortises. Also have been experimenting with Rockler Beadlock live tenon joinery. Thanks again, looking for to more informative videos.
Dick -- I was just about to mention Beadlock. For someone who wants to see if a Festool Domino would 'work' for them, I think Rockler's Beadlock system allows them to try out loose tenon joinery on the cheap. Beadlocks joints are every bit as strong and the jig allows similar (maybe even superior) accuracy. The downside is that it is a lot slower!
You should mention that you MUST use dust collection with the domino. I bought the Domino and CT dust collector as a set. But then I have the MFT 3 set up and TS 75, & 1400 EQ router. Soon as I tried the domino I got rid of my biscuit joiner. (gave it to my X is decided to do some woodworking as well.)
The domino is the way forward. Fact I have used mine on five jobs it’s now paid for. Made my life easier. Making money using tools you need good quality tools to achieve that finish. I have had a fair few dewalt triggers go bad on me so switched over to festool. Worlds apart and you dont get it till you are balls deep in the stuff that’s is great.
That Festool domino does a great job on cutting those mortises for the domino. I choose to use my Smith n Wesson 500 Mag using a 700 gr load to cut my mortises. Does a good job as well except I have to clean it up a little with a chisel n 220 sandpaper 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤙🏻🤙🏻
+Crackerjack The problem with you methods is that the joint is going to show on the other side. And you will not be able to do it inside as it will put holes in the wall and may hit somebody next door. The second amendment does not extend to wood joint though. There is no right to keep and bear joints.
Nice video, you have missed spoken on the sizes there is an additional biscuit size, letter number “FF” for “Face Frames” made for the porter cable biscuit joiner 557. The PC also has a much Larger “Bevel” range for it’s Fence.135 degrees... Before I bought my porter cable, I would use/take the # zero biscuit and cut it in half by length and use it to join a Stile to a 1-1/2” Rail end... Yes it shows from the bottom... But who looks up to inspect that...? Greg
Where i work we have the biscuit joiner, and the only thing we use it for is to make things level when we are gluing it together. The biscuits themselves has zero strength. While this domino thing looks like it makes things both level and can be a replacement for screws, just like a dowel.
How can people say that biscuits dont add strength? I disagree. So then what people are saying is that prior to the dominos, ALL the projects that i have built and others around the world are just falling apart. Yah right. BS. Dominos are still a loose tenon just like bicuits but turned the other way.
Biggest failure I’ve seen is with not coating all surfaces with glue including the biscuit. You slap glue in just the grove or just the biscuit will not be as strong
One thing to consider is making your own dominos from scrap wood. Just cut to size and round the corners if you want (I skip the rounding part because it is really unnecessary...) Zero expenses vs purchasing biscuits.
I don't understand why you didn't mention that glue is used with the biscuits (and probably the dominos). The glue causes the birch biscuits to swell, thus making an incredibly strong joint. Not only do I glue the biscuits; I also glue both surfaces that are joined. The joint is stronger than the wood if you use the right glue.
you also forgot to mention it has a fence to stabilise it on the face of a board, to do joints, this increases accuracy; there is also another system which does table connections (knock-down system) which covers the uses that you say the biscuit joiner has.
Biscuits also swell with the moisture in the glue so it does create a stronger more reliable joint, i dont use domino only cause because we do proper mortice and tennon but looking into one for a second workshop im setting up.
Just an FYI.... you can get dominos in stick form also (bulk) and cut them to the length you need. They also have them in at least a couple of different species.
Ron H Rod of Domino would not make much sense from a cost perspective it does if you want flexibility and maybe want to do custom depths on two different pieces.
I'd like to know the stock limitations for both. I have the biscuit jointer and have a hard time with stock less than 3/4 inch. I can raise it to get closer to the edge but then biscuit slot is hard to cut level and even. Set up becomes a challenge in other words.
I managed to get a secondhand domino, the 700 is a beast and has already helped me out on several projects. I have recently used it as per a biscuit joiner to align boards on a table top rebuild. I don't have a biscuit joiner, and currently don't feel that I need one. The domino will come into its own when I build a door next week. the large dominos are quite big.
Brian newton There is also a company out there that has adaptors that allows you to use the Domino 700XL with the bits of the domino 500 and the dominos that the 500 uses. That gives you the best of both worlds....
@@ronh9384 Oooh. now that could be handy. I made my own dominoes for the pine door build, they were okay, though I made em a bit neat so 70mm deep they were more than a tap fit, live and learn.
David Couture I got mine for £10 car boot sale. Working perfectly. Bargains are out there. Just gotta go find them. Also bought aBosch planer. No belt and dull blades for £10 same day. Belt cost me £4 and replacement blades on screw fix weekend special for £5. Result. Again working perfectly
With a regular router table you can make many of the mortises for loose tenons and then use wood strips for tenons which is about $600 cheaper then the domino system and that includes getting a really nice router. For the mortises you can not make with a regular router table you can with a horizontal router table which can make any mortises you need. One more thing is that if you get ether router table or you make them or you could make one with a tilting top (there are videos on TH-cam that show you how) not only can you make the mortises you have a router table that can do so much more. Even a dedicated mortise machine is cheaper but one again you can not make all of the mortises you may need but for the cost of a domino you can get it and a router and make both router tables and still save money. You can also just use dowels and a simple doweling jig. This would cost the least amount of money. You could mark the boards the same way and simply use a self centering jig to line up the holes for making panels. If the boards are not the same thickness then make or buy a simple jig that works from one side. To join two perpendicular boards line up three, six or even eight dowels depending on how thick your boards are. With so many other ways to get the same results and have tools that are not so single purposed and so much cheaper I see no reason for the average wood worker to get a domino. Now if you have a small business where you make furniture then you may have enough use for one to justify the cost. Actually the biscuit joiner does add to the strength of a joint in that it’s less likely to come apart then just edge glueing the two boards but not to load strength. It’s much like tung and groove as there’s more gluing surface. By the way another method to line up boards for a glue up. One more thing. Save the money for the domino and get a nice entry level cabinet table saw that will start between $700-$1200.
I have Lamello biscuit machine, as well as hollow chisel and stationary slot mortisers. As a professional, I see Domino as a true game-changer: moving the portable tool rather than large components is big advantage. If you were to buy onlynone Domino machine, would you go with Domino 500, or with 700 plus Seneca adapter setup enabling use of both small and large bits in the larger capacity unit?
I have had a Domino for 10+ years and have cut more than 10,000 mortises with the Domino. I am on my 3rd 1,800 piece 5mm Domino tenon box. I have never used my plate joiner AKA biscuit cutter since buying the Domino. No need to save Domino's they really are not much more expensive than biscuits. PC biscuits are $40-$50 per 1,000. 5mm Domino's today are $100. for 1,800. Or 4~5 cents each in "0" size biscuits and 5.5 cents for 5mm domino tenons.
They do completely different things and are equally as useful. If you are doing joints with MDF a biscuit jointer is perfect and if doing solid wood joints on a structure such as a table or door a domino is perfect. Biscuit joints are great for thin stock and for alignment.
@@michaelp43 Ease of use such as doing very thing bits of MDF. If for example you were doing MDF mouldings or faces you could use a biscuit jointer. It will be strong and allow for narrow face jointing. If you worked in only MDF a cheap good quality biscuit jointer could be very useful. Also biscuit jointers have metal connector options that allow for building knock down products. I could go on and on.
With a router table and round over bit you can make you own dominos. The only downside is you will not have the grooves in them so glue can spread more easy.
I have both and they both do different jobs for me, I cannot do without both of them personally, joinery or cabinetry they both do a great job in differing ways.
You didn't mention that the Domino has adjustable plunge/mortise depth. The maximum depth for the DF500 is 1 1/16" (28mm) whereas the max depth for the DF700 is 2 3/4" (70mm.) The DF700 allows the use of 8, 10, 12 and 14mm bits. Of course, the 14mm wide, 70mm deep plunge would allow using a tenon of a maximum of 140mm long because you make a 70mm deep hole on both sides of the joint. The 140mm long 14mm Domino is quite a large piece of wood. You can't really compare that to a biscuit, so for larger joinery, the Domino is the one. You can also make the mortises asymmetric - the mortise on one side can be deeper than on the other side as long as the total depth matches the length of the Domino. The larger Dominos can be used for pretty big joints (see Peter Parfitt put together a barn door and making a workbench using a Domino.) In regards to the mortise width, a technique that Festool recommends for edge-joining long boards is to make one hole the exact size - as a kind of index - and the rest of the holes using the wider setting. If you use the exact size hole for all of the mortises, it makes it extremely sensitive to keeping the spacing exact enough for them to all line up. There are "stop pins" in the face of the DF700 and to a lesser extent in the face of the DF500 that pop in/out that help spacing the mortises out, but I usually just draw the lines. NOTE: be sure to read the Domino manual concerning changing the mortise width. For instance, you're not supposed to change the DF500 width when the machine isn't running, but I haven't found that same statement in the DF700 manual. It also says not to change the width while drilling/routing - which makes sense. Some sizes of Domino come in long strips - 29 1/2" or 750mm - that you can cut to length, making it cheaper. Also, if you want to save yourself more money, it's easy to make your own Dominos - cut a strip of wood to thickness and width and then cut off the Dominos to length. If you cut them a little smaller in width you don't have to round the edges. I make them to the correct width and then when I need one I will round the edges on my belt/disk sander. It should also be mentioned that there are some aftermarket accessories available for the Domino machine. For example, Seneca Woodworking makes an adapter for the DF700 that allows you to use the smaller DF500 bits. That allows you to buy the 700 and use all of the bit sizes. The biggest caveat is that both of these machines only have one bit size included. The DF500 comes with a 5mm bit, and the DF700 comes with a 12mm bit. In order to get the rest, the only way I've seen it sold, is to buy the Domino kit which comes with several dominos of different thicknesses and lengths and the full compliments of bits. There are two Domino kits, one for the DF500 and one for the DF700. Since there's a little bit of crossover in sizes between the two tools, there are some 8mm and 10mm (I think) Dominos in each, although the DF700 Dominos come in longer sizes because of the DF700's ability to make deeper mortises. One other thing. Recently, Festool has come out with what the call a Domino "connector kit" which includes metal connectors that allow you to make knock-down furniture (think Ikea, only stronger and more accurate.) The kits come with the hardware and jigs you need besides the Domino. Again, there's a separate kit for the DF500 and the DF700 because of the size difference.
For a pro woodworker, both tools are useful, but the domino is much more versatile and has a greater range of uses. It will also pay for itself pretty quickly (anyone want to buy a used bench morticer and a used tenoning machine, lol?!). Also, to keep costs down, I use WAY more 4mm x 20mm dominos than other domino sizes, because you get lots more of them for your money than with the bigger sizes (they all get sold in the same size container). If necessary, I use a double row of them. If you have access to a thicknesser, you can also easily machine your own dominos - machine them in long strips and cut to length as you need them (I've recently machined a batch of waste oak from a job I'm working on into domino sizes - who cares if there's some sapwood in them).
What I would like to know is when boards are clamped, what affect does either method have on keeping the boards from warping. It seems to me per your demonstration that the Domino would have an advantage in keeping the table top from curling under pressure. Also not considered or talked about is the hinge capability with the Loose tenon that does not exist with the Biscuit jointer
Gary Crumrine when the boards are clamped, I wouldn’t worry about warping so much. If clamped properly, I would think of that as a concern. Especially if you were using good clamps. A domino is better no doubt, but a biscuit jointer does a great job of aligning boards!
So many variables come into play when clamping and glueing large panels. Edges have to be perfectly square pay attention to the end grain and reverse the cup each board . Width of the boards makes a difference also, the wider the board the more prone to cupping. ( 3” better than 5”) all depends on project and type wood, biscuits help some to level the joint, biggest advantage with either system is more glue surface
![BOWKYLION - วิงวอน (ex-change) [Official MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLdnZWDaO-w/mqdefault.jpg)
I used biscuits to join the (40) maple doors for my kitchen 35years later no joint failure or separation.
thank you for this informative video, now I will buy both because I'm a tool buying addict,.
Mda02396 Mda02396 lol that makes two of us
I am now addicted to wanting to buy nothing but tools and I am a gift-seven year old grandmother! I wish this had been my career! Working with wood and creating beautiful and useful things is my new addiction!
GIRLSFORGOYS GIRLSFORGOYS that’s a great addiction to have. 🙂
Great video for educating people. I, like you, have both.... LOL actually, both domino machines, and 2 biscuit joiners.
I always use the biscuits for making cabinet panels, and smaller, less "stressed" projects. I use the domino's for custom built ins, window benches, cabinet face frames, etc. Where strength and precision are necessary.
Keep up the great videos...
Big money
Great comparison, thanks for the posting.
I own both tools and like them both for different reasons. Some points for folks to consider:
•The plate jointer came first, and the Domino is heavily modeled off of it
•Technically, both tools create floating tenon joints. The biscuit is more like a spline in form and function, so in other words, one could make a blind spline for a table top and it might be a faster approach if there’s enough quantity to justify the added time of fabricating the spline material from thin plywood. (That’s a big “if”).
•Biscuits are compressed plywood, so they have long grain in 2 directions that ends up with half the strength of long grain all in the same direction, but we get some strength in both directions.
•With modern glue like TiteBond, The glue is where the strength of a joint resides.
•Dominos make stronger joints because they get the glue deeper into the workpiece than a biscuit can go, and they orient all of the wood’s strength in the direction that the joint will be worked.
•Both machines can make very strong joints simply by offsetting the tenons, which then allows us to make ganged/multiple tenons at each joint.
•The Dominos come in narrower widths, so it can make smaller, stronger joints than the biscuit joiner.
Good point about cutting a dado for a spline. Additionally a biscuit jointer works great for cutting tongue and groove on hardwood flooring that needs to be cut to fit in certain spots.
"substantially more expensive" to me means 50% more not 1000% more! I'd call that ludicrously more expensive.
Of course, the price of a Domino includes Festool's engineering and design development costs, plus the cost of creating production lines, marketing costs, etc. That all adds up. Prices will come down after Festool has recovered its initial costs, its patents have expired, and competitors start copying and undercutting it. I remember when biscuit joiners were new, and so expensive I could only dream of owning one. I saw a model online at Amazon today for $30.00....
Big big price difference. For most of us the biscuit joiner is the best option. If strength of the joint is the issue, use a dowel jig. Cheap and effective. The domino is a nice tool but for the price unless you're operating a production shop it's a toy that will not give the DIYer a return on investment.
+imxploring
Biscuit joints can be really strong as well. Then there are the different types of biscuits such as mean and plastic ones.
Couldnt have said it better
@Daniel Gauci I see where you're coming from but I dont know any diyers that are going to spend $2000 on a festool domino system over a 2 or 3 hundred dollar biscuit joiner and a dowel jig. I'm a contractor and I dont even see myself buying any festool products over all the makita and dewalt tools I currently run
@Daniel Gauci I get that too but this is one tool, if you used that logic to build your shop you'd need a second mortgage just for tools. I dont buy tools that cost almost 10 times the amount of the average tool and I dont have the room for a shop and I've got about $20 000 into just my mobile set up
@Daniel Gaucithey sell because they are a tool system that work well in fine finishing and in cabinet shops. I'll bet 99 percent of sales are to professionals running shops or doing high end finishing not to the diy crowd. My makita track saw does the same thing at well under half the price and is also not built with an abs housing. It will also use the festool tracks and the systainer it comes in is made by and compatible with festool.
Thanks for the breakdown. I was unaware of the difference between the two, minus the huge price tag. That really helped me in my decision making. Now to decide on which biscuit joiner to purchase.
I think Makita are well regarded. Used them in shops, never any issues.
As an amateur with woodworker, i typically feel overpowered with the entire arrangement th-cam.com/users/postUgkxrYREG3-7f1Aqk9ams3ZESRNzGnfdUtyQ . Be that as it may, this arrangements drove me through with much clarity and effortlessness woodplans. Works i now work like a genius. That is great!
Great explanation of both tools. I'd love a Festool, but it is so expensive for what it is and I just can't justify the cost for the little use I'd have for it. I have a the Dewalt biscuit joiner that serves me well for part alignment and I even have a Ryobi micro-biscuit joiner that I inherited from my dad... that is actually very useful for when I align hardwood edge bands on plywood. It uses the super small R1, R2 & R3 biscuits.
Csimet, would YOU buy the Festool Domino if u had cash to spare?
@@acemany1126 Yes, if it were burning a hole in my pocket and nothing else peaked my interest.
I'd like to get a dewalt biscuit joiner after watching this, I've always thought festool was severely overpriced anyway, based on a wide variety of the tools and equipment they sell. I have a few dewalt pieces and the quality for price is excellent. Great video as usual, definitely made My mind up, thanks a million.
You’re welcome
also true for sanders a good sander costs $60 vs $300 for a Festool sander. Regular Jigsaw $100, Festool Jigsaw $500!
The most expensive item on a Festool product is where is says Festool 😁 We all know they make great high quality products. But as noted by others unless you are either a professional shop or a well heeled hobbiest are they really worth the money. A biscuit jointer isn't the perfect solution by any means. But they have their uses. Actually when I first got a biscuit jointer I used it for cutting tongue and groove on flooring that I needed to cut to fit. And I did use it for inserting biscuits in mitered cuts on fireplace enclosures etc. Would I stand on a joint relying one a biscuit? No way.
@@mpetersen6 Woodworking is only a hobby for Me so I'm more than happy with dewalt . Festool really is for like You said professionals. Thanks for the input by the way👍.
Great explainer. Over two decades of using a BJ, not just for edge jointing, and not a single failure. Plus I can buy biscuits at just about any hardware store… 👏🇦🇺✌️
Definitely got your money’s worth 👍
I have just started woodworking, very amatuer at the moment just made my first chopping board, videos like yours are priceless to me, so many people always try to redirect you to there 'online store of plans' etc but if someone like me can easily.understand what your explaining then your doing something right!
Keep up the good work mate
Joe Bailey thank you Sir! I really appreciate it!
No problem, there isn't much woodworking support in the UK, it's not a massive industry over here.
Would be great to see some start to finish tutorials!
Thanks!
@@joebailey5141 Watch the TH-cam Channels of Peter Millard, Gosworth Handyman and Keith Brown.
They are all three British and give you down to earth information on many aspects of woodworking.
@@joebailey5141
Have you checked out Axminster. They offer everything you can imagine including all the latest method tools.
Do some research into MFT tables and have a look at the Axminster Parf guide system. And that is all UK based as well.
I would love to see you do a video on the dowelmax. It’s a very well made and accurate tool made by a family owned business. It’s also beautiful with the brass fittings
I haven’t heard of that but I’m gonna check it out now, thanks! 👍
Dowel max works very well. Not quite as fast as a domino but still incredibly versatile. The joints can be made very strong also. I like it but would like to try a domino.
@@acejenkins80 Mafell DD40 is a better comparison .. and there's a nasty little Triton to compare too.
@@kevinpunter7960 I had the Mafell DDF-40 and ended up selling it. It's a great machine but the Domino is more versatile. Plus, it's hard to find metric sized dowels.
The slot on the biscuit grove is adjustable in depth on the machine. (Small screw, wrench came with it ) This will help tighten the slot, you need just a little room for tolerance.this does help, glue up should be done with a brush and coat all surfaces including the biscuit.
What an excellent demo! So carefully explained, compared on all points, great visuals, and very detailed tutorial. Great job!
Audio has a bit of an echo, so a shirt mic would be nice.
The Domino is superior on all counts but Dewalt costs $176, Festool costs $1200. No brainer which one I will buy until a cheaper domino comes up. Thank you!
Outstanding video as usual! You are truly talented at describing and teaching people in a easy going style. Kudos to you and keep up the good work. And of course, congrtulaitons on becoming a dadddy. Enjoy every moment...
Russ Albright thank you so much Russ!!
I thought I'd add a few details as both a Festool Domino user and a user of biscuits in the past. The biscuit joiner I used mostly for aligning edge joined long grain boards and some trim boards around the perimeter of various projects and it did an OK job. The Domino functions within the Festool system. One of Festool's primary claims to fame is its dust collection and that is an important feature. Another commenter mentioned that dust collection is required for the Domino and that is correct because in the absence of dust collection, chips collect in the mortise and cause bit overheating. This makes sense when one considers that the Domino is basically a router that waggles. Imagine if you attempted to cut mortises with any power equipment without clearing the chips. A significant reason that dust collection as effective as Festool's is important relates to the health aspects of working with power tools.....woodworkers that use power tools, especially with some exotic hardwoods, can do serious damage to their pulmonary systems without proper protection and Festool does provide that advantage. In any case, I would urge anybody wanting to see what a Domino can do to visit a competent Festool dealer and have somebody do a demo. There are tricks for Domino success but they are not difficult to learn and once one learns the basics, it opens up a wide variety of applications. One thing that becomes obvious once one has mastered the basics is that the Domino allows degrees of accuracy and precision that the biscuit joiner cannot match. This may not matter to some people, but to others it can make a really large difference. Finally, I would never personally buy a Festool tool online unless I had already mastered the tool. The reason for this is that outfits like Amazon cannot provide any real support and there is no price advantage to buying online now that the internet tax collection is mandated. It is my experience that putting one's hands on the tool and even doing some evaluation demos gives more appropriate information for the individual than any TH-cam video, as valuable as they are, can ever hope to do....that said, to Bent's Woodworking....good work. P.S. - to the people who asked if this type of loose tenon could not be done with a router and an edge guide or a jig, the answer is yes.....but very slowly.....I have done that for years and the Domino, even with its limitations in sizes of tenons, is a much more productive solution in the overwhelming majority of situations. As to doing mortises on a router table....that's an exercise in frustration for the most part....don't ask me how I know.....it works OK for an occasional piece but it is highly inefficient and prone to problems, especially with dust collection. With all that said, OALA, EHOATAS.
Thank you for taking the time to share your insight and those tips 👍
With a thicknesser, you can mass produce your own custom width dominos as well. Works a treat
You just gave me an idea 🤔
I've made 80mm wide tenons, mimicking the Domino 10mm size for pinned tenons on a table top. Works a charm
Brilliant video. You just helped me buy a biscuit jointer. Greetings from the UK.
Awesome, you will enjoy it. Very useful tool!
In your "5 tools to get early," you mentioned a biscuit cutter. Thankfully, the next video on deck was an explanation of the tool and comparison to the Festool. You did a good job of demonstrating these tools. Thanks. I recently purchased the Festool 125 rotary sander and now I'm in love with the Festool brand.
It's a great brand, tool, and company!
Jason you are by far my favorite woodworker. I love how clear and thorough you are!
Thank you, I really appreciate that!
Thanks for this, I do finish carpentry and have the same DeWalt joiner, I always wondered what the Domino was like, I've never held one. Great video! Maybe after my kids are past the diaper stage I'll buy my first Domino, lol
lawcorp lol. Yeah all the money you will be saving will add up quick for one. Heck maybe even two 🤣
Lawcorp
Domino is great for structural joints where you may use a tenon for example such on a table, chair or door frame.
Deutsche bank has a special loan dept for these.
I picked up a biscuit joiner at the flea market (for $10) for a bookshelf project I was doing. Fortunately I had a planer to use, because the biscuits did NOT align the boards; the biscuits fit loosely in the slots causing my boards to be misaligned. Apparently, something is amiss with the $10 biscuit joiner, as it seems they are supposed to make a tighter fitting slot. I'm glad I watched this video. I had been considering a domino joiner, but I don't need to spend a thousand dollars to get boards to line up better in glue-ups. (and yes, I realize with more practice and a few other tips, I will get better glue-ups in the future)
I hardly ever use the domino for table tops anymore to be honest. I use it for many other things.
There are different thicknesses of biscuits.
@@acrinsd I used the #20 biscuits. Is there a thicker biscuit?
Nice video. Learned something new about the Domino. I didn't realize you could do the slots such that the boards could be slid along each other for alignment. I have both a biscuit joiner and a doweling jig but use neither enough anymore to justify the Domino. Still, you did a good job explaining the different uses, pros and con of each so even though I'll likely never buy one I appreciate the knowledge.
Don T thank you for the comment sir! Even though I own the domino, my biscuit joiner will always have a place.
Don T
If you use a domino you may find that you start to do different types of joints. Domino's can do tenon like joints so that means you can do stronger joints.
To minimize the side to side play, you need to micro adjust the depth.
Ghee, we generally don't comment on the ideas or opinions of other craftsmen or craft persons but we have been working in wood since age 14. The Mortise and Tenon joint as well as an oft forgotten "Doweling" process seems to be a dim reflection of our early apprenticing. At , 72, we would never claim easy victories or accomplishments. But it seems that some foundational skills are being lost. We still have a collection of hand saws and chisels that make perfect joints that have thus far held fast for fifty years. Good woodworking to all.
+Triton Memnon
Even when you were a kid there was still commercial joinery techniques that were not traditional. I myself use a mixture of the two.
People that are selling reasonably built costed products are going to use something like a Domino. Those at the upper edge of the marketplace are going to use more traditional joinery.
Great video, thanks for your comparison. I am just an occasional weekend warrior. My dad was an expert in woodworking made cabinets and countertops for a living, almost anything else as needed. I am still using his workbench that is as old as me. Me not so much. My skills and talent are elsewhere. Still I sometimes like to build things I need. And my dad would tell me, "A good tool is worth it's weight in gold. A crummy tool isn't worth the powder to blow it to hell."
That’s a great saying!!!
The biscuits are compressed so that when you assemble the joint with a water based adhesive, the biscuit expands to lock the joint and take all the slop out of it.
The dominos are also compressed. It even says festool and the size on every single one of them. They are more expensive tho.
Biscuit needs less accuracy and that little bit of play horizontally helps a lot during assembly. I did however find the domino worked very well for narrow parts in furniture which a biscuit would be impossible.
I've used and owed a biscuit joiner, Dowel Max and the Festool Domino. Of them all, I like the Domino the best. Is it worth the extra cost? It is to me. it is fun, fast and accurate. It is probably one of their best tools.
I use Duo-dowler, Domino and Biscuit joints and they are all have their place. I would think if it was just one tool to own the Domino would be the best for most people.
I use biscuit and dowels together and it's worked for me, I thought about a Domino, but for the cost, I'll stick to what I have...
X2 on that. If I were young, and starting out all over...again, maybe I'ld consider it. I don't think my projects will suffer, cause I'm not using Dominoes.
I just had that idea as I was watching this video. How well does your material line up?
Exactly. Festool seems like over engineered headache. I've used their mitre saw, fuck that thing. The handle sucks, and it's not any better than my dewalt. Haven't used the domino tool but I have never had much problems with biscuits, and like the op, I've used dowels as well. Never had issues.
@@lazio7495 depends on your ability to use measurements.
If I had my time over again, maybe I would consider a domino joiner. But I bought my biscuit joiner over 20 years ago when domino's probably didn't exist. I only use my biscuit joiner 4 or 5 times a year, so buying a domino probably won't be worth it. I'm pleased to see that you recommend biscuits for table tops, as that is what I mainly use mine for.
Old video but still very relevant. Helped answer lots of my questions.
Glad you found it helpful
Thank you for the video. Two things.
First, I would like to see someone compare a single Domino strength to simply using two 5 cent Lamello Biscuits on top of one another. No one has done that. Even a clone Domino is 17 cents.
Second, I used calipers and measured the thickness of 30 each of DeWalt and Swiss-made Lamello plate joiner Biscuits. Lamello was 1000 for $46.37 from Amazon, which is 4.6 cents each. DeWalt was $7.98 for 100 from Lowes, which is 8 cents each. I calculated the mean and standard deviation of the thicknesses and the Lamello were more than 3x as uniform. 97.7% of Lamello are predicted to be between 3.69 and 4.00mm. DeWalt are 3.34 to 4.31mm. The goal is to be as close to 4mm without going over. Visually, the Lamello have a glue-gripping pattern on each side. The DeWalt had a more shallow grid on one side.
No sense in judging biscuits without using Lamello brand.
A good quality biscuit is made from Beech and machined so the grain is running diagonally, for additional strength
Biscuit side to side play can be minimized by adjusting the depth of cut.
The adjustments are made according to the size of the biscuit. If you are using a size 20 biscuit, you select the size 20 option.
Adjusting it down just one position to size 10 will give you issues.
@@kellym3610 my porter cable has micro adjustments on top of the standard selected sizes.
As everyone knows?? I didn't know.
Just learned biscuit joiners existed. Can't wait to get one.
Your shop looks like a Festool Store! WOW!
This was a very good explanation of the two. Great video! I have the domino and I love it. I use it for joining boards and it works great but it's real advantage is in how versatile it is. It can make mortises on narrow stock like for crib rails I recently made. I didn't have to bother with cutting each stile longer so i could get a tenon out of it, I just cut it to size and then used the domino and what a joy it was!!!
It’s an excellent tool to have for sure!
I have a biscuit joiner and use it, but I also made a hand held doweling machine that works like biscuit joiner on boards of the same or different thickness
Two completely different applications intended. I own a domino and not a biscuit joiner, but I use cauls to clamp large panels and tops.
I use the domino to join furniture parts. You can use it as an alignment tool if you choose but the tenons are beech and meant to be structural.
All great information, thanks
One of the best tool comparisons and explanations ever!
Glad you found it helpful
You can evaluate biscuits very cheaply to see if they're right for your construction needs. I bought a 3- wing slotting cutter, 5/32" kerf and used it on hundreds of joinery tasks before taking the plunge on a fully functional biscuit joiner tool. About the only joint I could not make with the cutter was a mid- panel slot, line an upside down "T", the joiner tool could, of course, handle that. I also found that 1/8"hardboard would serve as a decent enough spline so I made my own supply for doing counter top edging or drawer joints etc. Anyway, retired in 2000, did tens of thousands of biscuit joints, never needed a tenoner type tool.
BeachsideHank thank you for you comment!
This is a good overview but additional information that would be beneficial: Cost, time studies for various operations, ease of use, cleanliness, noise, and strength studies. Additionally, usage scenarios as the domino is extremely versatile.
I went with the domino, but that’s because I’ve done a lot of research on it vs the alternatives. Woodworking on easy mode has value. Speed also has a lot of value. When doing multiple mortis and tenon connections along a panel, the domino is insanely fast and accurate/repeatable without error. Add in a need to make a miterbox (45 degree panel joints), the Festool kit attachments, and I’m not sure there’s a better solution. (Test first as it is possible to blow through if a setting is off). No need to measure, just set distance and go.
If time is money and if a lot of hidden joining work is being done, the domino is a no brainer. Unfortunately, the price is expensive for those not making money from the work and in that case pocket screws, screws with wood caps, or dowels (with a good jig as a lot of crappy ones exist) make a lot of sense. Biscuits… are dead last on my preferred approaches, but I’m influenced by some bad experiences in my youth and maybe bad machinery is more the issue than the process. I’ve never been back, but I am biased against biscuits. Reading comments here people do seem to have good experiences, so I guess just make sure your biscuit machine is good.
The last consideration is dust extraction. Almost all Festool tools put a lot of consideration into effective dust extraction, other tools/brands/jigs may not and this can also be a deciding factor. When doing installs in a business or house (onsite), dust can be hugely problematic. While a dust extractor doesn’t eliminate dust, there’s a huge reduction that can take place. The ability of whatever solution in use to connect to a dust extractor or vacuum is valuable. While a lot of work may take place in my garage, doing some work in the house and not filling the space with sawdust keeps my wife happy and me breathing (both strangle free and healthier lungs). The domino has dust extraction capabilities. Some biscuit joiners may have it, but I’m positive not all have it.
“Why would idiots spend money on Festool?” Speed sometimes (but not anyways, as some tools suck), dust collection for onsite installs. Historically Festool has always been great at dust consideration which is huge with some clients if you’re in a finished environment or doing add on work.
“Why does the Festool cord disconnect?” Because you plug a cord into your dust extractor on-site and then just switch the tool. The cord stays attached to the machine and hose.
Thanks for the insight. Looks like both tools have their place.
They do for sure.
Very good explanation, some woodworking people talk about strength between two piece of wood
Wow just came across your video. Thank you so much for such a clear concise explanation
Glad it was helpful!
I have and use both. The biscuit joiner is effecting and cheap for jointing boards edge to edge. The domino to replace traditional mortice and tenon joints. Dominos are much more expensive than biscuits.
Have had the Dewalt biscuit jointer for years. Like it very much, but the biscuits are pine, and I have found pullout and expansion issues when used with hardwood planks. I went to the trouble of making my own biscuits from hardwood, with a custom made jig. It works pretty cool, I use it to make the biscuits out of whatever wood I have to join, even pine, as I find it that easy a process. I will buy the domino as I could really use it for mitres, which the bisquit is all but uselss for unless the stock is wider than 3 inches, and even then it is often a struggle. I imagine the dominos would be a piece of cake to self fabricate in relation to the biscuits.
The domino is great for so many applications, especially miters
They are actually made from beech
I have owned the Dewalt biscuit jointer for approx 20yrs, I have been looking at tge domino because I build alot of small boxes ect & the biscuit jointer is very limited as far as trying to join narrow pieces of wood, I like the loose tenon idea.
Blind Man60 You won’t regret buying the domino. I started out with a DEWALT biscuit joiner and bought the domino. I rarely use the biscuit joiner anymore. The domino just does so much more and has knockdown capabilities now as well.
Good review. Never heard of a domino joiner before this. I own neither yet but if I buy one it will be the biscuit joiner. The Domino joiner is a proprietary tool. If the domino manufacturers go out of business it is a paperweight. Biscuits are readily available everywhere. He basically talked me out of buying a domino just with the facts. Several people pointed out that dowels do the same thing, are cheap, and easy to get. With the increase of pocket screw systems that would be my go-to for the extra strength if I’m doing right angle joints like cabinets. Thanks for the honest comparison.
Huh? It doesn’t have to be an oval shape. A simple rectangle on a table saw will do. By the way dominos themselves aren’t proprietary, I buy aftermarket ones on amazon half the price of originals. Same exact shape minus festool logo. But in any case. Any rectangle shape on table saw will do. The important thing is thickness, not width, and how deep it goes into each side
You can buy biscuits in combinations of the 20, 10 and 0 as well as just in a individual size of a thousand for about $30 Woodworker's Supply and I guess Amazon also...
Gregory Londos wow that’s really good to know. I’ll check that out for sure. Thanks!!!
Cheap buiscuits are sometimes not exact in their dimensions. I recently bought a batch which was to thin so useless as an alignment, throw away the whole package.
The Domino paid for itself on my first big project. The amount of time saved is remarkable.
carver3419 agreed!
carver3419 y
Brent, great video, thanks. When I got my first biscuit joiner, did an experiment by cutting a joint in half. The biscuit swells with the application of the glue, not in the longitudinal direction but top to bottom.
Because of the high cost of the Festool Domino, and the desire to incorporate live tenon joinery in my work, I've built a horizontal router table to accurately cut mortises. Also have been experimenting with Rockler Beadlock live tenon joinery. Thanks again, looking for to more informative videos.
That’s an interesting idea with the router table 👍
Dick -- I was just about to mention Beadlock. For someone who wants to see if a Festool Domino would 'work' for them, I think Rockler's Beadlock system allows them to try out loose tenon joinery on the cheap. Beadlocks joints are every bit as strong and the jig allows similar (maybe even superior) accuracy. The downside is that it is a lot slower!
We use both alot, they are both very useful for different things.
Anton Sundelin totally agree. Definitely won’t be getting rid of my biscuit joiner
Nice review mate & I’ve found that the Dowelmax has changed joinery for me as well as my biscuit joiner 👍👍👍
Sumo's Projects thank you, I have never used a dowelmax. I’ll have to check it out!
if were to do it all over again, I would consider the Lamello Zeta P2. Especially if you are making knock down furniture. It's an amazing machine.
Lamello has S20 4mm knockdown biscuits for standard biscuit joiners.
You should mention that you MUST use dust collection with the domino. I bought the Domino and CT dust collector as a set. But then I have the MFT 3 set up and TS 75, & 1400 EQ router. Soon as I tried the domino I got rid of my biscuit joiner. (gave it to my X is decided to do some woodworking as well.)
Jim Miller good point
The domino is the way forward. Fact I have used mine on five jobs it’s now paid for. Made my life easier.
Making money using tools you need good quality tools to achieve that finish. I have had a fair few dewalt triggers go bad on me so switched over to festool.
Worlds apart and you dont get it till you are balls deep in the stuff that’s is great.
I agree completely. You have drink the Koolaid before you can appreciate it.
37 seconds in, and I see a clear winner, most of your kit is festool.
No doudt the domino is a good tool, but it's at the extreme end.
That Festool domino does a great job on cutting those mortises for the domino. I choose to use my Smith n Wesson 500 Mag using a 700 gr load to cut my mortises. Does a good job as well except I have to clean it up a little with a chisel n 220 sandpaper 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤙🏻🤙🏻
🤣🤣
+Crackerjack
The problem with you methods is that the joint is going to show on the other side. And you will not be able to do it inside as it will put holes in the wall and may hit somebody next door.
The second amendment does not extend to wood joint though. There is no right to keep and bear joints.
Pro tip: use a MOAB to cut a couple pieces at once. ;)
Nice video, you have missed spoken on the sizes there is an additional biscuit size, letter number “FF” for “Face Frames” made for the porter cable biscuit joiner 557. The PC also has a much Larger “Bevel” range for it’s Fence.135 degrees... Before I bought my porter cable, I would use/take the # zero biscuit and cut it in half by length and use it to join a Stile to a 1-1/2” Rail end... Yes it shows from the bottom... But who looks up to inspect that...? Greg
Thank you for your feedback
Wouldn't a hand held router with an attachable edge guide and spiral upcut bit be able to accurately mortise like the Festool?
Ben McCartney I think it is totally feasible. It would definitely take longer.
Having done that, the answer is yes, but if one was doing a lot of joinery, a purpose made, dedicated tool is a better choice.
EXACTLY the video I was looking for. Thx
Where i work we have the biscuit joiner, and the only thing we use it for is to make things level when we are gluing it together. The biscuits themselves has zero strength. While this domino thing looks like it makes things both level and can be a replacement for screws, just like a dowel.
How can people say that biscuits dont add strength? I disagree. So then what people are saying is that prior to the dominos, ALL the projects that i have built and others around the world are just falling apart. Yah right. BS. Dominos are still a loose tenon just like bicuits but turned the other way.
Round dowels can twist. Shared tenons don't, whether it's the Domino or you make your own dominos to custom width
Biggest failure I’ve seen is with not coating all surfaces with glue including the biscuit. You slap glue in just the grove or just the biscuit will not be as strong
Thanks for the vid. Explained really well. Now I understand the difference.
Glad you found it helpful
Clicked Festool link: 💵 😳
Clicked Dewalt link: 👍🏻 😊
Great video. Really useful information and comparison. Thank you.
Glad you found it helpful
One thing to consider is making your own dominos from scrap wood. Just cut to size and round the corners if you want (I skip the rounding part because it is really unnecessary...) Zero expenses vs purchasing biscuits.
I actually did a video on how I make my own dominos 👍👍
My big respect for you man ...I learned alot from your video s ...thanks a lot
Happy to hear that!
I don't understand why you didn't mention that glue is used with the biscuits (and probably the dominos). The glue causes the birch biscuits to swell, thus making an incredibly strong joint. Not only do I glue the biscuits; I also glue both surfaces that are joined. The joint is stronger than the wood if you use the right glue.
The DeWalt can also cut the smaller FF sized biscuit for face frames. It just requires a blade change.
you also forgot to mention it has a fence to stabilise it on the face of a board, to do joints, this increases accuracy; there is also another system which does table connections (knock-down system) which covers the uses that you say the biscuit joiner has.
An older video but supports my change to an all Festool shop.
Biscuits also swell with the moisture in the glue so it does create a stronger more reliable joint, i dont use domino only cause because we do proper mortice and tennon but looking into one for a second workshop im setting up.
R M W both great tools for any shop!
The joint @5:12 looked pretty jacked up lol
Best review on the theme so far !
Glad you liked it.
This really helped me with choising.which to useand whe. Any advise on Kreg pocket hole tools. Keep them coming. TY
Glad you found it helpful
Just an FYI.... you can get dominos in stick form also (bulk) and cut them to the length you need. They also have them in at least a couple of different species.
Ron H yeah, I’m too lazy to cut them myself. 🤣🤣
Ron H
Rod of Domino would not make much sense from a cost perspective it does if you want flexibility and maybe want to do custom depths on two different pieces.
Very very very VEEEERRRRRYYYYY good info, demonstration and advise! Good job. You're the PF of woodworking! Cudos man. 👍
Glad you found it helpful!
Very well explained thank you very much👍🏻
Thanks!
I'd like to know the stock limitations for both. I have the biscuit jointer and have a hard time with stock less than 3/4 inch. I can raise it to get closer to the edge but then biscuit slot is hard to cut level and even. Set up becomes a challenge in other words.
Not sure I totally understand what you mean
Raise your work piece on top1/4 inch ply (whatever it takes ) use your bench for a flat surface adjust machine accordingly
Both is the better option
I managed to get a secondhand domino, the 700 is a beast and has already helped me out on several projects. I have recently used it as per a biscuit joiner to align boards on a table top rebuild. I don't have a biscuit joiner, and currently don't feel that I need one. The domino will come into its own when I build a door next week. the large dominos are quite big.
Brian newton its an excellent machine for sure! Yes, the 10 mm dominos are beefy enough for my needs. 👍🏻
Brian newton There is also a company out there that has adaptors that allows you to use the Domino 700XL with the bits of the domino 500 and the dominos that the 500 uses. That gives you the best of both worlds....
@@ronh9384 Oooh. now that could be handy. I made my own dominoes for the pine door build, they were okay, though I made em a bit neat so 70mm deep they were more than a tap fit, live and learn.
I got my Porter-Cable biscuit joiner for $15
David Couture i got my Festool - Domino XL 700 for $1500 with some accessories and make WONDERS !!! Any tools does its own Job !!!
David Couture I got mine for £10 car boot sale. Working perfectly. Bargains are out there. Just gotta go find them. Also bought aBosch planer. No belt and dull blades for £10 same day. Belt cost me £4 and replacement blades on screw fix weekend special for £5. Result. Again working perfectly
Great explanation! Thank you!
You’re welcome
With a regular router table you can make many of the mortises for loose tenons and then use wood strips for tenons which is about $600 cheaper then the domino system and that includes getting a really nice router. For the mortises you can not make with a regular router table you can with a horizontal router table which can make any mortises you need. One more thing is that if you get ether router table or you make them or you could make one with a tilting top (there are videos on TH-cam that show you how) not only can you make the mortises you have a router table that can do so much more.
Even a dedicated mortise machine is cheaper but one again you can not make all of the mortises you may need but for the cost of a domino you can get it and a router and make both router tables and still save money.
You can also just use dowels and a simple doweling jig. This would cost the least amount of money. You could mark the boards the same way and simply use a self centering jig to line up the holes for making panels. If the boards are not the same thickness then make or buy a simple jig that works from one side. To join two perpendicular boards line up three, six or even eight dowels depending on how thick your boards are.
With so many other ways to get the same results and have tools that are not so single purposed and so much cheaper I see no reason for the average wood worker to get a domino. Now if you have a small business where you make furniture then you may have enough use for one to justify the cost.
Actually the biscuit joiner does add to the strength of a joint in that it’s less likely to come apart then just edge glueing the two boards but not to load strength. It’s much like tung and groove as there’s more gluing surface. By the way another method to line up boards for a glue up.
One more thing. Save the money for the domino and get a nice entry level cabinet table saw that will start between $700-$1200.
Duane Miller thank you for your input
I really like this overview! Well done!
Thank you
Excellent review. Thank you.
You mentioned different size bits for the festool. How is it to change the size of the bits and cost.
I have a biscuit joiner and a tabletop mortiser with a combined price less than the boutique domino.
I have Lamello biscuit machine, as well as hollow chisel and stationary slot mortisers. As a professional, I see Domino as a true game-changer: moving the portable tool rather than large components is big advantage. If you were to buy onlynone Domino machine, would you go with Domino 500, or with 700 plus Seneca adapter setup enabling use of both small and large bits in the larger capacity unit?
Michael Schuler I would go with the 500
Awesome explanation!!! Always great stuff!!
Thank you!
Excellent .. very good explanation 👍
Glad you found it helpful!
I have had a Domino for 10+ years and have cut more than 10,000 mortises with the Domino. I am on my 3rd 1,800 piece 5mm Domino tenon box. I have never used my plate joiner AKA biscuit cutter since buying the Domino. No need to save Domino's they really are not much more expensive than biscuits. PC biscuits are $40-$50 per 1,000. 5mm Domino's today are $100. for 1,800. Or 4~5 cents each in "0" size biscuits and 5.5 cents for 5mm domino tenons.
They do completely different things and are equally as useful.
If you are doing joints with MDF a biscuit jointer is perfect and if doing solid wood joints on a structure such as a table or door a domino is perfect. Biscuit joints are great for thin stock and for alignment.
@@bighands69 what makes biscuits better for MDF?
@@michaelp43
Ease of use such as doing very thing bits of MDF. If for example you were doing MDF mouldings or faces you could use a biscuit jointer. It will be strong and allow for narrow face jointing.
If you worked in only MDF a cheap good quality biscuit jointer could be very useful. Also biscuit jointers have metal connector options that allow for building knock down products.
I could go on and on.
With a router table and round over bit you can make you own dominos. The only downside is you will not have the grooves in them so glue can spread more easy.
With a router table, you can easily put your own grooves in too!
I have both and they both do different jobs for me, I cannot do without both of them personally, joinery or cabinetry they both do a great job in differing ways.
I agree. The biscuit joiner will have a place in my shop for a long time.
You didn't mention that the Domino has adjustable plunge/mortise depth. The maximum depth for the DF500 is 1 1/16" (28mm) whereas the max depth for the DF700 is 2 3/4" (70mm.) The DF700 allows the use of 8, 10, 12 and 14mm bits. Of course, the 14mm wide, 70mm deep plunge would allow using a tenon of a maximum of 140mm long because you make a 70mm deep hole on both sides of the joint. The 140mm long 14mm Domino is quite a large piece of wood. You can't really compare that to a biscuit, so for larger joinery, the Domino is the one. You can also make the mortises asymmetric - the mortise on one side can be deeper than on the other side as long as the total depth matches the length of the Domino. The larger Dominos can be used for pretty big joints (see Peter Parfitt put together a barn door and making a workbench using a Domino.)
In regards to the mortise width, a technique that Festool recommends for edge-joining long boards is to make one hole the exact size - as a kind of index - and the rest of the holes using the wider setting. If you use the exact size hole for all of the mortises, it makes it extremely sensitive to keeping the spacing exact enough for them to all line up. There are "stop pins" in the face of the DF700 and to a lesser extent in the face of the DF500 that pop in/out that help spacing the mortises out, but I usually just draw the lines.
NOTE: be sure to read the Domino manual concerning changing the mortise width. For instance, you're not supposed to change the DF500 width when the machine isn't running, but I haven't found that same statement in the DF700 manual. It also says not to change the width while drilling/routing - which makes sense.
Some sizes of Domino come in long strips - 29 1/2" or 750mm - that you can cut to length, making it cheaper. Also, if you want to save yourself more money, it's easy to make your own Dominos - cut a strip of wood to thickness and width and then cut off the Dominos to length. If you cut them a little smaller in width you don't have to round the edges. I make them to the correct width and then when I need one I will round the edges on my belt/disk sander.
It should also be mentioned that there are some aftermarket accessories available for the Domino machine. For example, Seneca Woodworking makes an adapter for the DF700 that allows you to use the smaller DF500 bits. That allows you to buy the 700 and use all of the bit sizes.
The biggest caveat is that both of these machines only have one bit size included. The DF500 comes with a 5mm bit, and the DF700 comes with a 12mm bit. In order to get the rest, the only way I've seen it sold, is to buy the Domino kit which comes with several dominos of different thicknesses and lengths and the full compliments of bits. There are two Domino kits, one for the DF500 and one for the DF700. Since there's a little bit of crossover in sizes between the two tools, there are some 8mm and 10mm (I think) Dominos in each, although the DF700 Dominos come in longer sizes because of the DF700's ability to make deeper mortises.
One other thing. Recently, Festool has come out with what the call a Domino "connector kit" which includes metal connectors that allow you to make knock-down furniture (think Ikea, only stronger and more accurate.) The kits come with the hardware and jigs you need besides the Domino. Again, there's a separate kit for the DF500 and the DF700 because of the size difference.
Bob Levittan all excellent points! Thank you for the additional input. That pretty much covers anything someone may have a question about!
Great tutorial. Thank you for sharing.
You’re welcome
For a pro woodworker, both tools are useful, but the domino is much more versatile and has a greater range of uses. It will also pay for itself pretty quickly (anyone want to buy a used bench morticer and a used tenoning machine, lol?!).
Also, to keep costs down, I use WAY more 4mm x 20mm dominos than other domino sizes, because you get lots more of them for your money than with the bigger sizes (they all get sold in the same size container). If necessary, I use a double row of them.
If you have access to a thicknesser, you can also easily machine your own dominos - machine them in long strips and cut to length as you need them (I've recently machined a batch of waste oak from a job I'm working on into domino sizes - who cares if there's some sapwood in them).
Will buy Festool, but not $85 to paint walls. I like this dudes priorities. I’m showing this vid to my wife.
I have since painted my was lol
What I would like to know is when boards are clamped, what affect does either method have on keeping the boards from warping. It seems to me per your demonstration that the Domino would have an advantage in keeping the table top from curling under pressure. Also not considered or talked about is the hinge capability with the Loose tenon that does not exist with the Biscuit jointer
Gary Crumrine when the boards are clamped, I wouldn’t worry about warping so much. If clamped properly, I would think of that as a concern. Especially if you were using good clamps. A domino is better no doubt, but a biscuit jointer does a great job of aligning boards!
I believe Paul Marcel, AKA Half Inch Shy did some strength tests on the domino in one of his videos. th-cam.com/users/HalfInchShy
So many variables come into play when clamping and glueing large panels. Edges have to be perfectly square pay attention to the end grain and reverse the cup each board . Width of the boards makes a difference also, the wider the board the more prone to cupping. ( 3” better than 5”) all depends on project and type wood, biscuits help some to level the joint, biggest advantage with either system is more glue surface