for sure. I only wish there was more on the open web. I think each year folks who are holding those old films will eventually let them free. I think of all the ancestors who worked on this before film. So anyone who memorizes a form, is carrying that tradition on in the most authentic way. no matter the correography.
Keep doing more videos! Really like your analysis of how the weapons may have been used and where. In addition, you’re understanding that they are all so used to develop the body. Forgive me if you mention this and I just didn’t catch it. But I also wanted to add That, by using these tools, they may help develop attributes and understanding of how force is generated and transmitted from the body and sometimes back into it. There’s much more than that. And that is why I believe it is valuable to practice these things. Without doing this none of us would ever know what we come to know from the actual experience of training with these tools. It’s the same as if a boxer only shadowboxed and never sparred or fought his/her knowledge would never be as deep or as genuine as the individual who actually put it to the test.
well said. We have to do the work ourselves. I only mention that just because these guys were good, doesn't mean we are. But for sure. there is a very rich study on how to generate force from the different stances and grip changes. My favorite is the spear form some where in the middle, thing moves so fast. I think we need to study them all. Including two hand sword. it's the same grip style, one up one down. thanks for the comments!
As an old Hung ga man, I practised a version of 2:09 5th son 8 diagram pole; single point & double ended pole techniques. A version that was a composite of 2 different pole forms as far as I recall. 6 1/2 is one of them
Very cool. thank you for sharing. For sure the Hung gar pole work has got to be close to the full library for the very long stick. outside of how much correography a set has, the sequences are what I think are the most important. Down to the shape angle, and the grip turning. Anything with kneeling or nice low stances has my heart with all this stuff.
some teachers do say that learning weapon forms nowadays, including the applications and 2-man drills, are for improving your barehand skills, not for fighting with them. 3 examples i remember are: one wing chun teacher said the long pole form is so you can fight with only one hand with side stance, it's simple because you should change position as soon as possible to use both hands. one bagua teacher said bagua big saber can enhance your bagua body, its strength and flexibility, that's why it's pretty complex. one taiji teacher said the long spear drill is to test your sensitivity and fajing, that they should reach the point of the spear.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, lineage is important, but if you understand the method, you can bridge multiple styles and develop a solid course. I think cross training is very important. So you don't get stuck in just one wing chun style, especially if it's really limited. Each of these guys learned pieces from others and put it together themselves. It's helpful to have a method, no matter how simple. I'm eager to explore more forms and styles to add to my own abilities. So this video was nice showcase of lots of methods.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK yes, we must also understand that these people were also on the same journey as us. Like they say, it's not the style that matters, it all on you and your interpretation of things. In my opinion, it's all connected. When someone is stuck in anything that means they haven't looked deep enough. Cross training is important if your looking to develop skill or understanding.
I understand the pole is derived from red boat opera as te poles pushed boats along rivers hence the length of pole and short moves as deck space on boats was limited
For sure, that folk lore stands the test of logic, but the pole arm at that length is originally to dismount calvary. check the video at 28:00 see the 16 ft pike. I think that if they only used it on the boat, this would explain why some are doing only little footwork.
On the Snake Crane pole where the rear grip has the extra space at the end. I want to say it was area where the butt end spike should be since the WC pole likely descended from the spear. I was also taught to give the space up as well on where the rear hand is placed but mine is from the Gulao village lineage
Yes, that makes perfect sense, so you could also strike well with that side if some one slipped in close. I prefer the feeling of my hand at the end, for the speed of shooting, putting my other hand near and sometimes under the arm pit. I know that is a large difference in many schools. Whether to leave some at the end, or whether to hold it at the very end. Working with different length pole arms is important. It's all so cool. does the gulao village lineage hold the pole at the very end, or leave a little? I'm trying to understand. thanks!
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK…on Gulao I was taught to leave space at the butt end (maybe 3 to 4 inches), with the butt end only slightly making contact with your rear wrist when you thrust out. It might also be for counter-balance reasons but widening the grip would solve that so I think it might be because that space was originally where the end spike was suppose to be. The pole training intended for an actual spear combat, and fittings for the spearhead and end spike can be attached when the need arises. But that is just my guess
@@rayray6490 makes perfect sense, especially if the weapon is about to get thrust into something huge, in that case there are movements where they brace into the ground, expecting the pole to shatter. The fellow with the pike held a good portion of the long spear with some noticeable measure off the back end. I have had very good luck driving the staff into a thrust with my palm on the back of the stick, very easy to change to other grips, either way. I see the pole arm as a direct influence into wing chun's grappling arts, you're holding a thing and changing the grip, same goes for the BJD.
Thanks for the comment. Nicely said, thats the logic I understand, the 6 cardinal locations to put the stick, and then anything that thrusts becomes the 7th action. or the hit with the butt of the pole could be the half point. But theres also the idea of thrusting high or thrusting low, so we're a few past 6.5 if you start counting... I recall reading some where that the number 7 had some superstition attributed to it, and that's why it's only 6.5... I still like the idea that its been reduced to the 6 main points and some thrust options. I think I commented else where, this thing is just like a single sticky hand. My brain learned the art as a boxing art first, then the weapons.. anyway, thanks for the contribution.
Tang yik’s form is authentic, the combination of footwork with the weapon is real combat compared to the others. Long pole is the Buddhist version of the spear
Agreed, the other Wing Chun pole forms look like only a few parts, of a much larger set. In my video I speculate of course that the limited area to train in may have affected these modern players to truncate the form, though this is speculation. The pan nam set is really small also. I believe that the Tang Yik form, the Hung Gar form, and some of those spear sets, have preserved the use and function of these weapon methods. The Yip Man descended content is quite limited. If you compare that to the boxing forms of wing chun, the pole feels squeezed in and only a partial thought. but then again, as in all things related to Wing Chun, simplicity is important. thanks for the comment.
Tang Yik doesn’t appear to be performing a “form”. But looks to be free-styling and was the most impressive and dynamic. Is there a reason why Tsui Seung-tin, William Cheung, Leung Ting and WSL takes a step first and then thrust? I thought it should be one single movement to capture the explosiveness of the thrust
Yeah, that tang yik one is still awesome, even if it's freestyling. I wondered if it was a form, or just a ton of work out options. The 3 other yip man dcecendants, the moves they do are all slow and structural, as if instructing while showing the footage. I think that if we saw them do it other times, in their solo practice, that they'd work it faster, and more dynamically. I don't believe that a form is mastered until you can do it with full power and speed, with quality explosions. So those guys have to be showing slow mo break downs. Great comment!
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCKthank you. Yes I think it might be like you said in the video as well due to space concerns Yip Man might’ve modified things a bit and minimized what he saw fit.
Tang Yik is obviously in a different league compare to others. All of yip man's students' pole form are slow and without the snap and leverage. I strongly suspect that yip man himself is not proficient on the pole.
@@andysif Thanks for the comment. This statement isn't wrong, from the videos, most of Yip Mans disciples are doing the work slow, not really anyone doing it with a ton of speed. However, Pan Nam's form was very small. It's also possible that the minimalist method is at work in those forms. I understand the core philosophy of wing chun to be about minimalism, and efficiency working in unison. So by that point, perhaps you don't need all those wild actions like tang yik, or the hung gar. When you duel, stick to stick, what shapes to you really use to win. Disperse and thrust, spiral and thrust. Just like the single sticky hand. Great comment. Thanks for sharing any thoughts.
For sure some of these guys are incredible. Back to work! I try to do at least a few minutes of weapon training every day. That's why a short stick is so easy. The longer training group sessions are great for doing a few hours in a row. It's such a good work out to work with the pole arm, no matter your skill level.
Very nice collection and analysis of long pole forms, Sifu! Thanks for taking the time to put this together. Here is a nice demonstration of Mak Che Kong’s 8 diagram pole. There aren’t many public videos of him performing it. The Lam Family version includes the 6 1/2 pole form in the middle section. th-cam.com/video/81DC6rAx9bY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=O0zQlwv1oWDOEycp
Thank you for the comment. And for sharing Mak Che Kong's form work. I couldn't find it easily in my research work. He's definitely a keeper of that system. From my point of view, it's the authentic postures and proper bone shaping that makes it so authentic.
fun fact: the long pole was incorporated into wing chun, there was once a guy who sailed on a small canoe and used a long pole travel in a shallow stream, he was able to strike people with this long pole and knock people from other vessels overboard while he retained his balance. A wing chun sifu saw this a traded to teach the man wing chun if he taught them how he was able to harness "power to the tip of the pole"... This is the reason Chu Shong Tin does not move from the spot where he is standing while demonstrating the lok dim boon form movements.
makes perfect sense, the limited foot space requires only a shortened series of possible or useable movements. I see the entire weapon to be alot like single handed chi sao. Its just one weapon, hunting centerline. So my objective should be only to swim and pierce their center of mass, or a good target on the center line. In the referenc you make, knock them off their boat. I love footwork, so I'm very fascinated by the other methods, which to your point of the boat usage, are considered terrestrial pole methods. It's probable that lots of martial artists in that day were using this a stick though. So I always question exotic origin stories. I still feel like the primary way of WC is the double short saber. But then it's methods can be applied to anything, especially daily life, and routine, but also fitness, business, family, etc.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Bart Jam dao, double swords are like the extension of Sil lum tao (aka siu nim tao). when you see the cocked leg movement in long pole it is to create a lever. No disrespect to the other Wing Chun Sifu's but if you have a weapon, you don't need to move around and waste energy, moving your body from the spot you are standing on whilst operating a weapon against an adversary will compromise your balance and power. Jim Fung's method teaches how to apply weapons forms with everyday objects, holding a pen using the double sword form movements to break an opponents guard and pierce the throat of the opponent, a rolled up news paper can be used in defence like the double sword from movements. a broom or mop can substitute a pole, they are all an extension of the empty hand forms. Bruce Lee's "Way of the intercepting fist" (aka Jeet Kune Do) is wing chun at its core
I did 15 years of Chu Shong Tin lineage (he was the longest serving disciple of IP Man and even lived with IP Man). Chu Shong Tin was also the longest living grand master that his lineage was able to learn from, a true humble tough guy!
Thanks for the comment. Chu Shong Tin's work is among the best in my opinion, simple yet loaded full of the best structural understanding. His pole set is quite small, and was a good fit for the video, to show what is considered the Yip Man pole set. The dividing line in many systems, isn't just their form sequences, pivot styles, it's also the types of two man drills, and the theory they are applying.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Master Chu's top student Jim Fung was also the longest serving student of Chu Shong Tin, before Jim Fung there were analogies how to perform techniques (eg sheep clamping stance and copy animal shapes etc), Jim I guess formalized Master Chu's training curriculum and introduced structure in English. It is Characterized by "Nim Lik" (thought force), simultaneous defence and attack and 5 core principles for the science of self defence *Simplicity* (easy to learn, easy to apply) *Directness* (centreline theory, the quickest way from point A to B is a straight line) *Practicality* (everything you learn you can use) *Economy of Movement* (no "flashy" wasted movements) *Minimum Use of Brute Force* (deflection & redirection as opposed to hard blocking)
@@FreeSpeech-z6j Nice summary on theory. I have an old book from Jim Fung on the wing chun weapons. Too bad he passed away so young. I understand he was building a nice reputation in Australia for master Chu's method. Only wish there was more video of these folks.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Jim Fung is like a Bruce Lee story, he moved to Autralia to study at uni in the 1980's and then for pocket money taught Wing Chun. There was a complete CST Wing Chun system DVD with English subtitles done in HD before CST passed away. There is also an excellent DVD from Jim Fung how to apply the weapons movements with everyday objects
It is always interesting to watch old footage like this
for sure. I only wish there was more on the open web. I think each year folks who are holding those old films will eventually let them free. I think of all the ancestors who worked on this before film. So anyone who memorizes a form, is carrying that tradition on in the most authentic way. no matter the correography.
❤❤ beautiful long pole movements dances, i learned basics of wing chun when i was in high school...
Agreed, when it dances, it's like poetry in motion. I think gracefulness is an important aspect of all martial arts.
Keep doing more videos! Really like your analysis of how the weapons may have been used and where. In addition, you’re understanding that they are all so used to develop the body. Forgive me if you mention this and I just didn’t catch it. But I also wanted to add That, by using these tools, they may help develop attributes and understanding of how force is generated and transmitted from the body and sometimes back into it. There’s much more than that. And that is why I believe it is valuable to practice these things. Without doing this none of us would ever know what we come to know from the actual experience of training with these tools. It’s the same as if a boxer only shadowboxed and never sparred or fought his/her knowledge would never be as deep or as genuine as the individual who actually put it to the test.
well said. We have to do the work ourselves. I only mention that just because these guys were good, doesn't mean we are. But for sure. there is a very rich study on how to generate force from the different stances and grip changes. My favorite is the spear form some where in the middle, thing moves so fast. I think we need to study them all. Including two hand sword. it's the same grip style, one up one down. thanks for the comments!
Great narrating , your a kool dude , dude !
thanks for the comment. glad you enjoyed it.
As an old Hung ga man, I practised a version of 2:09 5th son 8 diagram pole; single point & double ended pole techniques. A version that was a composite of 2 different pole forms as far as I recall. 6 1/2 is one of them
Very cool. thank you for sharing. For sure the Hung gar pole work has got to be close to the full library for the very long stick. outside of how much correography a set has, the sequences are what I think are the most important. Down to the shape angle, and the grip turning. Anything with kneeling or nice low stances has my heart with all this stuff.
some teachers do say that learning weapon forms nowadays, including the applications and 2-man drills, are for improving your barehand skills, not for fighting with them. 3 examples i remember are: one wing chun teacher said the long pole form is so you can fight with only one hand with side stance, it's simple because you should change position as soon as possible to use both hands. one bagua teacher said bagua big saber can enhance your bagua body, its strength and flexibility, that's why it's pretty complex. one taiji teacher said the long spear drill is to test your sensitivity and fajing, that they should reach the point of the spear.
That's why knowing your leniage or history is so important.
Thanks for the comment! Yes, lineage is important, but if you understand the method, you can bridge multiple styles and develop a solid course. I think cross training is very important. So you don't get stuck in just one wing chun style, especially if it's really limited. Each of these guys learned pieces from others and put it together themselves. It's helpful to have a method, no matter how simple. I'm eager to explore more forms and styles to add to my own abilities. So this video was nice showcase of lots of methods.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK yes, we must also understand that these people were also on the same journey as us. Like they say, it's not the style that matters, it all on you and your interpretation of things. In my opinion, it's all connected. When someone is stuck in anything that means they haven't looked deep enough. Cross training is important if your looking to develop skill or understanding.
@@Triple-fe3fp Very nicely said. 👊👊👊
I understand the pole is derived from red boat opera as te poles pushed boats along rivers hence the length of pole and short moves as deck space on boats was limited
For sure, that folk lore stands the test of logic, but the pole arm at that length is originally to dismount calvary. check the video at 28:00 see the 16 ft pike. I think that if they only used it on the boat, this would explain why some are doing only little footwork.
On the Snake Crane pole where the rear grip has the extra space at the end. I want to say it was area where the butt end spike should be since the WC pole likely descended from the spear. I was also taught to give the space up as well on where the rear hand is placed but mine is from the Gulao village lineage
Yes, that makes perfect sense, so you could also strike well with that side if some one slipped in close. I prefer the feeling of my hand at the end, for the speed of shooting, putting my other hand near and sometimes under the arm pit. I know that is a large difference in many schools. Whether to leave some at the end, or whether to hold it at the very end. Working with different length pole arms is important. It's all so cool. does the gulao village lineage hold the pole at the very end, or leave a little? I'm trying to understand. thanks!
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK…on Gulao I was taught to leave space at the butt end (maybe 3 to 4 inches), with the butt end only slightly making contact with your rear wrist when you thrust out. It might also be for counter-balance reasons but widening the grip would solve that so I think it might be because that space was originally where the end spike was suppose to be. The pole training intended for an actual spear combat, and fittings for the spearhead and end spike can be attached when the need arises. But that is just my guess
@@rayray6490 makes perfect sense, especially if the weapon is about to get thrust into something huge, in that case there are movements where they brace into the ground, expecting the pole to shatter. The fellow with the pike held a good portion of the long spear with some noticeable measure off the back end. I have had very good luck driving the staff into a thrust with my palm on the back of the stick, very easy to change to other grips, either way. I see the pole arm as a direct influence into wing chun's grappling arts, you're holding a thing and changing the grip, same goes for the BJD.
its a 6.5 pole form. thats 6 and 1\2 movements. so when you are watching this look for the 6 movements that repeat.william chung added to the form.
Thanks for the comment. Nicely said, thats the logic I understand, the 6 cardinal locations to put the stick, and then anything that thrusts becomes the 7th action. or the hit with the butt of the pole could be the half point. But theres also the idea of thrusting high or thrusting low, so we're a few past 6.5 if you start counting... I recall reading some where that the number 7 had some superstition attributed to it, and that's why it's only 6.5... I still like the idea that its been reduced to the 6 main points and some thrust options. I think I commented else where, this thing is just like a single sticky hand. My brain learned the art as a boxing art first, then the weapons.. anyway, thanks for the contribution.
Tang yik’s form is authentic, the combination of footwork with the weapon is real combat compared to the others. Long pole is the Buddhist version of the spear
Agreed, the other Wing Chun pole forms look like only a few parts, of a much larger set. In my video I speculate of course that the limited area to train in may have affected these modern players to truncate the form, though this is speculation. The pan nam set is really small also. I believe that the Tang Yik form, the Hung Gar form, and some of those spear sets, have preserved the use and function of these weapon methods. The Yip Man descended content is quite limited. If you compare that to the boxing forms of wing chun, the pole feels squeezed in and only a partial thought. but then again, as in all things related to Wing Chun, simplicity is important. thanks for the comment.
Important in Hsing I / Xing Yi training
Loved your analysis... Can you do the same comparison with the Double Knifes? Thank you!
Did that one last season.. th-cam.com/video/grgTDt0zfGE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=OQcmQftEQWUt4Umi
Tang Yik doesn’t appear to be performing a “form”. But looks to be free-styling and was the most impressive and dynamic. Is there a reason why Tsui Seung-tin, William Cheung, Leung Ting and WSL takes a step first and then thrust? I thought it should be one single movement to capture the explosiveness of the thrust
Yeah, that tang yik one is still awesome, even if it's freestyling. I wondered if it was a form, or just a ton of work out options. The 3 other yip man dcecendants, the moves they do are all slow and structural, as if instructing while showing the footage. I think that if we saw them do it other times, in their solo practice, that they'd work it faster, and more dynamically. I don't believe that a form is mastered until you can do it with full power and speed, with quality explosions. So those guys have to be showing slow mo break downs. Great comment!
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCKthank you. Yes I think it might be like you said in the video as well due to space concerns Yip Man might’ve modified things a bit and minimized what he saw fit.
Tang Yik is obviously in a different league compare to others.
All of yip man's students' pole form are slow and without the snap and leverage. I strongly suspect that yip man himself is not proficient on the pole.
@@andysif Thanks for the comment. This statement isn't wrong, from the videos, most of Yip Mans disciples are doing the work slow, not really anyone doing it with a ton of speed. However, Pan Nam's form was very small. It's also possible that the minimalist method is at work in those forms. I understand the core philosophy of wing chun to be about minimalism, and efficiency working in unison. So by that point, perhaps you don't need all those wild actions like tang yik, or the hung gar. When you duel, stick to stick, what shapes to you really use to win. Disperse and thrust, spiral and thrust. Just like the single sticky hand. Great comment. Thanks for sharing any thoughts.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK
th-cam.com/users/shortsntgJvqewgEE?si=Q98lCVZai-6E7Kn0
So much love for posting this!!❤❤❤
Thanks for the comment my friend. glad you enjoyed it !
what i got out of this is everyone does pole form better than me. lol
For sure some of these guys are incredible. Back to work! I try to do at least a few minutes of weapon training every day. That's why a short stick is so easy. The longer training group sessions are great for doing a few hours in a row. It's such a good work out to work with the pole arm, no matter your skill level.
All these are from Bodhidharma Tamil Kanchipuram Pallava Dynasty. Wing Chun is originally Tamil martial arts.
Very nice collection and analysis of long pole forms, Sifu! Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
Here is a nice demonstration of Mak Che Kong’s 8 diagram pole. There aren’t many public videos of him performing it. The Lam Family version includes the 6 1/2 pole form in the middle section.
th-cam.com/video/81DC6rAx9bY/w-d-xo.htmlsi=O0zQlwv1oWDOEycp
Thank you for the comment. And for sharing Mak Che Kong's form work. I couldn't find it easily in my research work. He's definitely a keeper of that system. From my point of view, it's the authentic postures and proper bone shaping that makes it so authentic.
👍🙏❤️ Thanks
fun fact: the long pole was incorporated into wing chun, there was once a guy who sailed on a small canoe and used a long pole travel in a shallow stream, he was able to strike people with this long pole and knock people from other vessels overboard while he retained his balance. A wing chun sifu saw this a traded to teach the man wing chun if he taught them how he was able to harness "power to the tip of the pole"... This is the reason Chu Shong Tin does not move from the spot where he is standing while demonstrating the lok dim boon form movements.
makes perfect sense, the limited foot space requires only a shortened series of possible or useable movements. I see the entire weapon to be alot like single handed chi sao. Its just one weapon, hunting centerline. So my objective should be only to swim and pierce their center of mass, or a good target on the center line. In the referenc you make, knock them off their boat. I love footwork, so I'm very fascinated by the other methods, which to your point of the boat usage, are considered terrestrial pole methods. It's probable that lots of martial artists in that day were using this a stick though. So I always question exotic origin stories. I still feel like the primary way of WC is the double short saber. But then it's methods can be applied to anything, especially daily life, and routine, but also fitness, business, family, etc.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Bart Jam dao, double swords are like the extension of Sil lum tao (aka siu nim tao). when you see the cocked leg movement in long pole it is to create a lever. No disrespect to the other Wing Chun Sifu's but if you have a weapon, you don't need to move around and waste energy, moving your body from the spot you are standing on whilst operating a weapon against an adversary will compromise your balance and power. Jim Fung's method teaches how to apply weapons forms with everyday objects, holding a pen using the double sword form movements to break an opponents guard and pierce the throat of the opponent, a rolled up news paper can be used in defence like the double sword from movements. a broom or mop can substitute a pole, they are all an extension of the empty hand forms. Bruce Lee's "Way of the intercepting fist" (aka Jeet Kune Do) is wing chun at its core
I did 15 years of Chu Shong Tin lineage (he was the longest serving disciple of IP Man and even lived with IP Man). Chu Shong Tin was also the longest living grand master that his lineage was able to learn from, a true humble tough guy!
Thanks for the comment. Chu Shong Tin's work is among the best in my opinion, simple yet loaded full of the best structural understanding. His pole set is quite small, and was a good fit for the video, to show what is considered the Yip Man pole set. The dividing line in many systems, isn't just their form sequences, pivot styles, it's also the types of two man drills, and the theory they are applying.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Master Chu's top student Jim Fung was also the longest serving student of Chu Shong Tin, before Jim Fung there were analogies how to perform techniques (eg sheep clamping stance and copy animal shapes etc), Jim I guess formalized Master Chu's training curriculum and introduced structure in English. It is Characterized by "Nim Lik" (thought force), simultaneous defence and attack and 5 core principles for the science of self defence
*Simplicity* (easy to learn, easy to apply)
*Directness* (centreline theory, the quickest way from point A to B is a straight line)
*Practicality* (everything you learn you can use)
*Economy of Movement* (no "flashy" wasted movements)
*Minimum Use of Brute Force* (deflection & redirection as opposed to hard blocking)
@@FreeSpeech-z6j Nice summary on theory. I have an old book from Jim Fung on the wing chun weapons. Too bad he passed away so young. I understand he was building a nice reputation in Australia for master Chu's method. Only wish there was more video of these folks.
@@WarriorsGuild_CTWCK Jim Fung is like a Bruce Lee story, he moved to Autralia to study at uni in the 1980's and then for pocket money taught Wing Chun. There was a complete CST Wing Chun system DVD with English subtitles done in HD before CST passed away. There is also an excellent DVD from Jim Fung how to apply the weapons movements with everyday objects
Then you should know it's "Yip" Man, not Ip Man. Only the movie fans ever refer to Yip as Ip. It never was, and never will be, "Ip".