Have you looked into the Sum Ging/Sum Jee lineage, they openly say there style is a mix of Hung Kuen and Wing Chun. Thank you for all your great research!
If you look at OG Chan's lineage Wing Chun, pretty much all the forms are so similiar to Hung Gar. My theory is Grandmaster Chan learn the three set forms from Red Boat Wing Chun . Sometimes i think that there are no different between Hung Kuen and Wing Chun, especially if you looked at Old Hung Gar forms (pre time of Wong fei Hung ).
@@nelsonng7209 Chan Wha Sun did not have the three sets, only Chan Yiu Min and maybe Ng Chung So but as he has no real Downline Etc it’s hard to say, but whatever the case they Must have gotten it from one of Yuen Kay San students and made their own version or Yuen Kay San himself (more unlikely) or somebody connected to Fok Bo Chuen even more unlikely. Anyway that’s the only direction it could have come from, they might have even seen Ip Man practice the three sets regularly after learning it from Yuen Kay San and took it from him and made their own versions
@@SifuSergioChannel If Chan Yu Ming really learn from Yuen's student, he will give credit to Yuen's line. Just imagine, a infamous Chan's lineage successor does not give credit to his teacher, it will greatly damage the reputation. But if Chan learn from hybrid style of Wing chun, it will be okay for him to hide it since very few people knew the existence of that branch of Wing chun/Hung Gar.
I would love to read your book but it seems its only available in the european markets. Do you plan to eventually release it in the North American region?
@@mgk22 If you order the book from the US with the order links provided in the description the book will be send to the US we have weekly orders from the US.
Ok so based on your reasoning, it is implied that Chan Wah Shun lineage does not contain the 3 main WC sets (Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee). And that is because Dr Leung Jan also never taught those form as well. Does that imply that the source coming from Leung Jan is not WC but is actually a different stand alone art unrelated to WC itself? What's your opinion on this possibilty?
@@andyk-ro2gv Leung Jan’s art is not Wing Chun Kuen in the sense of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Tze but stems from the same source the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau the system however is split up into 12 sets and more San Sik based.
@@SifuSergioChannel so let me get this straight, does this mean the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau that you mentioned is the original common source of both the Leung Jan as well as the Yuen Kay Shan version of WC?
Thank You again for a brilliant presentation. Your wealth of knowledge is a blessing to the European language speakers like me, who have little access to our shared Wing Chun history from Chinese sources. Today, Yip Man Kung Fu comes in a dozen flavors, all considered Wing Chun, yet vastly different depending on what the student heard GM Yip Man say, and dare we admit.....what they made up with their own teaching experience. We can see a web of interconnected versions and a diverse opinion of understanding what "it is." We suffer the diaspora of DVD and internet sharing today,...but your work thankfully documented the oldtimers opinions of what was going on over the last 150 years. Wing Chun is very modular and adaptable, part of it's greatness, but that also is a danger, as it will easily allow us to adapt wing chun to fit our own bias, modularly fit it into another martial arts tactics and goals we already began with, or even repackage a CMA like Hung Gar into a "Wing Chun" varient. I believe this is why people ask "who was your FIRST sifu?" or why people will refuse to take lessons or train at all if they can not find "a real sifu." It is recognized habits are very hard to break. Sifu Pang Nam did 5 versions of Hung Gar before he started Wing Chun....undoubatly he would still use Hung Gar teaching methods and drills and teach with the methods of his five prior sifu's. I have witnessed it, and I am sure many readers have too, leaving a seminar or lesson with a great master, and returning to train with others from the event, only to find the students all heard the message differently. Do I train the way they think Sifu said, or do I argue my opinion and get them to train the way I heard and saw it? The adaptability of WT allowed my Sihings to have several opinions (applications) but they often missed the root of the Chi Sau Section. Dr. Leung Ting had this problem with EWTO corrections leaking into the USA.....I literally watched him correct everyone only to have their EWTO trained sifu changed it back when he left! Dare I say they did it wrong? Sifu Emin and his National Sifu took Leung TIng corrections and taught them at the next event, while the EWTO people I worked with moved on witht he opinions of technitians. New versions of WT being spawned with every instructor! My point is in the failure of students to get the message as well as the teacher knows it, because teaching is a difficult skill too It is like teaching math,...few can teach Calculus with success, but it seems everyone will tell you they never use algebra!.....Wing Chun is higher math in the same way. If they think they do not use chi sau in a fight" they need to find a better teacher who can explain how it works and they can understand how it does effect fight performance. I see my own failures in this and seek to correct them, but I often watched my WT peers believe they had learned all their teacher knew, merely because he could not teach the higher details very well. So what? He was just a vehicle of information. One of the youth will be a genius and take it past their own teacher. My first Sihing, pictured in the Roots and Branches book with the 1991 Chi Sau Champs, used to say "Don't COPY me, I am still on the path too, just ahead of you. I am repeating as best I can what they said and did." Sorry for the long post, I do have a point. Based on how I have watched WT fail to be learned even when great teachers explain it, I must believe the history of advanced Chi Sau training has been the same, always falling short, always backsliding into what other CMA do to. The three form teaching and information storage method seems to have evolved this way. This might have been going on for a long time, as a conversation and side effect of teaching a progressive martial art with only a long single form...."Don't show them that method yet, they won't be able to learn these other things if their Bong Sau collapses so easily., I have tried it already and it does not work," WT does not allow several drills for beginners in this way, to insure the basic habits, adduction instead of horse stance for example. WT uses Lan Sau instead of BiuTze elbows for a long time too, to ensure Bong Sau does not collapse easy. Without that there is no "turnstile effect" using the adduction turn. WC versions who allow pointed elbows early can not achieve a proper turnstile effect with a Bong Sau....the arm fails before the hips get turned. Those details matter, and people can not be trusted to follow directions and be patient....so each progression will require "secrets" and thus a long form is broken down into teaching parts. I am very interested in how teaching chi sau and fighting with the long SLT was achieved, i.e how much did a beginner learn, was it in steps, and does that give hints to how they formed the three form varient over time? Did it ever have numerous middle forms(more than 1 way to do what we call Chum Kiu now) before they settled in on a secret third form? I await the next decade of videos and books from you on this topic. Very exciting. The secret society period surely hid stuff and that forces three versions: Public forms, private methods taught in school that should remain secret but often leak out into the world, and secret methods for the Si-Fu's family. That seems to be true for any martial art I think, but politics and social unrest forced it into the society secrecy in China. GM Yip Man was one of six students of Sifu Yeun Kay San....given this message and a beginning point to grow it. What did he hear and see and understand differently compared to his five peers? My sihings and Sifu's have always challenged me to catch them and pass them. The mottos and literature are used by all of us TOGETHER to grow the martial art. Sometimes it is a young genius that hears the teachers lesson and then teaches the teacher something from it! My final note on this: I was given cryptic mottos to grow with by my first Si-Hing, lessons he learned from Leung Ting and Sifu Elmond Leung in San Franscisco. I am one of those genius kids and I grew with them, and when my teacher moved I had to invent teaching methods to run my school. Years later a High Level tech taught me a lesson, a "secret" he said, but it was something I had already discovered on my own. He wanted to OWN this secret now that he "taught" it to me. Later he got mad at me for teaching it and claimed I had violated his trust by teaching HIS STUFF. So I stopped taking lessons from him unfortunately, as he felt ownership of my free thinking. It is not HIS secret nor was I stealing the path of discovery from new students. It was the lesson for everyone. I bring this up only for sociology reference. Yip Man traveled around and had many lessons. The idea or teaching methods that resulted in the SNT/CK/BJ may have been know by Yip Man prior to becoming a student of Sifu Yeun Kay San's line. I knew the secret and I sought out people who could teach me more. You know I have strong faith in the story of Yip Man and Leung Bik. I will agree with your research that the three form split was not official at that point in time. But whatever was going on with the art that produced this change was present, and Leung Bik could have offered directions and mottos Yip Man carried as a guide for his whole life. For me it was mottos from Sifu Elmond Leung, who I only meet one time, but it was these mottos that steered me. He showed us the Pentgon stepping pattern really fast when we meet, what a huge difference that single ten minutes made on my school and my life. Sorry to make such a long winded post....I hope it helps the algorhythem if nothing else.....
@@DrTzeus Thank you for the long comment it’s appreciated, maybe it’s an idea for you to come to the Eternal Spring institute in Madeira in the future for some days to meet me in person.
Do you think its possible Ip Man learned the knives from Yuen Kay San or was that already there in the Leung Jan-Chan Wah Shun lineage because it looked as though it was there in the gulao lineage??
@@SifuSergioChannel so then he may have learned maybe some sets (not a sequence) from YKS then teaches his own approach to that in HK or just nothing and what he taught in HK was 100% his own creation?
Not really *5 masters of different styles train and mix systems underground after the burning of the Southern Shaolin temple!* *Ng mui a Shaolin nun was one of those five! She used Fu jan "White Crane" also used in the Hung family system, and discarded Fu jow the male strength essence of tiger for dim Cheung palm strikes also found in the Hung family systems! The only added is a short fist form of snake creating narrower stances and circular stepping!* A *pattern stepping repeated in the original plum blossom another system Ng mui knew. All these were passed to Yim Wing Chun. In that there is no deviation (except maybe the actual person Wing Chun that is another story though).*
@@Viktor-jm9tg Nope the art of Ng Mui (Fujian white crane) and Mui Shun (Emei) where fused two specific forms of their respective arts and created the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau in 1790 which in 1850’s after the burning of the King Fa Wui Koon gave rise to the creation of Wing Chun Kuen in the secret society. Anyway it’s all in my book in details with over 400 pages of info.
Hi Sifu Sergio. Great video again!🙏🏻 Hope you don’t mind me asking, but I’m curious about the 1700s SLT form you teach. May I respectfully ask which specific lineages you consider to be teaching a pre-Ip Man version of Wing Chun? What are the key differences between them, your version and the more widely known Ip Man versions?
@@kringdal746 The Law family snake crane, Yuen Kay San lineage for example both predate Ip man’s Foshan Wing Chun in case of the Yuen Kay San lineage however not by much and its also important to note that they where friends. Ip man Never formally did Bai See with Yuen Kay San
@@giuliancity2507 The Yik kam Siu Lin Tau (training of the little details set) which was formed in 1790’s is not really Wing Chun Kuen, as the name and three set format of Wing Chun Kuen came about in 1850’s but yes the ancient Single long set Siu Lin Tau predates that
It's hung ga influences wing chun or wing chun influences hung ga? You have to be careful? Because I hear of a fight between hung ga and wing chu. One tradition is the one who loose have to learn from the winning side.
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [1/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vLGjxFL6U_I/mqdefault.jpg)
Your video are always enlightening.
Have you looked into the Sum Ging/Sum Jee lineage, they openly say there style is a mix of Hung Kuen and Wing Chun. Thank you for all your great research!
Very informative video ! Thank you for sharing Sifu
@@brookatkins8111 You are very welcome
So, according to your information, what material did Ip Man preserve from Chan Wha Shuen and passed it to his students?
If you look at OG Chan's lineage Wing Chun, pretty much all the forms are so similiar to Hung Gar. My theory is Grandmaster Chan learn the three set forms from Red Boat Wing Chun . Sometimes i think that there are no different between Hung Kuen and Wing Chun, especially if you looked at Old Hung Gar forms (pre time of Wong fei Hung ).
@@nelsonng7209 Chan Wha Sun did not have the three sets, only Chan Yiu Min and maybe Ng Chung So but as he has no real Downline Etc it’s hard to say, but whatever the case they Must have gotten it from one of Yuen Kay San students and made their own version or Yuen Kay San himself (more unlikely) or somebody connected to Fok Bo Chuen even more unlikely. Anyway that’s the only direction it could have come from, they might have even seen Ip Man practice the three sets regularly after learning it from Yuen Kay San and took it from him and made their own versions
@@SifuSergioChannel If Chan Yu Ming really learn from Yuen's student, he will give credit to Yuen's line. Just imagine, a infamous Chan's lineage successor does not give credit to his teacher, it will greatly damage the reputation. But if Chan learn from hybrid style of Wing chun, it will be okay for him to hide it since very few people knew the existence of that branch of Wing chun/Hung Gar.
What about Law Tiu Wen? Yuen family is not the only option
@@thephantasmagoricalperson4114 That at the time was still a closed door family (Moon) not an open family a Pai
I would love to read your book but it seems its only available in the european markets. Do you plan to eventually release it in the North American region?
@@mgk22 If you order the book from the US with the order links provided in the description the book will be send to the US we have weekly orders from the US.
Why did Ip Man remove Yuen Kay San style to teach modified version
Ok so based on your reasoning, it is implied that Chan Wah Shun lineage does not contain the 3 main WC sets (Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee). And that is because Dr Leung Jan also never taught those form as well. Does that imply that the source coming from Leung Jan is not WC but is actually a different stand alone art unrelated to WC itself? What's your opinion on this possibilty?
@@andyk-ro2gv Leung Jan’s art is not Wing Chun Kuen in the sense of Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Tze but stems from the same source the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau the system however is split up into 12 sets and more San Sik based.
@@SifuSergioChannel so let me get this straight, does this mean the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau that you mentioned is the original common source of both the Leung Jan as well as the Yuen Kay Shan version of WC?
Thank You again for a brilliant presentation. Your wealth of knowledge is a blessing to the European language speakers like me, who have little access to our shared Wing Chun history from Chinese sources.
Today, Yip Man Kung Fu comes in a dozen flavors, all considered Wing Chun, yet vastly different depending on what the student heard GM Yip Man say, and dare we admit.....what they made up with their own teaching experience. We can see a web of interconnected versions and a diverse opinion of understanding what "it is." We suffer the diaspora of DVD and internet sharing today,...but your work thankfully documented the oldtimers opinions of what was going on over the last 150 years.
Wing Chun is very modular and adaptable, part of it's greatness, but that also is a danger, as it will easily allow us to adapt wing chun to fit our own bias, modularly fit it into another martial arts tactics and goals we already began with, or even repackage a CMA like Hung Gar into a "Wing Chun" varient. I believe this is why people ask "who was your FIRST sifu?" or why people will refuse to take lessons or train at all if they can not find "a real sifu." It is recognized habits are very hard to break. Sifu Pang Nam did 5 versions of Hung Gar before he started Wing Chun....undoubatly he would still use Hung Gar teaching methods and drills and teach with the methods of his five prior sifu's.
I have witnessed it, and I am sure many readers have too, leaving a seminar or lesson with a great master, and returning to train with others from the event, only to find the students all heard the message differently. Do I train the way they think Sifu said, or do I argue my opinion and get them to train the way I heard and saw it? The adaptability of WT allowed my Sihings to have several opinions (applications) but they often missed the root of the Chi Sau Section.
Dr. Leung Ting had this problem with EWTO corrections leaking into the USA.....I literally watched him correct everyone only to have their EWTO trained sifu changed it back when he left! Dare I say they did it wrong? Sifu Emin and his National Sifu took Leung TIng corrections and taught them at the next event, while the EWTO people I worked with moved on witht he opinions of technitians. New versions of WT being spawned with every instructor!
My point is in the failure of students to get the message as well as the teacher knows it, because teaching is a difficult skill too It is like teaching math,...few can teach Calculus with success, but it seems everyone will tell you they never use algebra!.....Wing Chun is higher math in the same way. If they think they do not use chi sau in a fight" they need to find a better teacher who can explain how it works and they can understand how it does effect fight performance.
I see my own failures in this and seek to correct them, but I often watched my WT peers believe they had learned all their teacher knew, merely because he could not teach the higher details very well. So what? He was just a vehicle of information. One of the youth will be a genius and take it past their own teacher. My first Sihing, pictured in the Roots and Branches book with the 1991 Chi Sau Champs, used to say "Don't COPY me, I am still on the path too, just ahead of you. I am repeating as best I can what they said and did."
Sorry for the long post, I do have a point. Based on how I have watched WT fail to be learned even when great teachers explain it, I must believe the history of advanced Chi Sau training has been the same, always falling short, always backsliding into what other CMA do to.
The three form teaching and information storage method seems to have evolved this way. This might have been going on for a long time, as a conversation and side effect of teaching a progressive martial art with only a long single form...."Don't show them that method yet, they won't be able to learn these other things if their Bong Sau collapses so easily., I have tried it already and it does not work," WT does not allow several drills for beginners in this way, to insure the basic habits, adduction instead of horse stance for example. WT uses Lan Sau instead of BiuTze elbows for a long time too, to ensure Bong Sau does not collapse easy. Without that there is no "turnstile effect" using the adduction turn. WC versions who allow pointed elbows early can not achieve a proper turnstile effect with a Bong Sau....the arm fails before the hips get turned. Those details matter, and people can not be trusted to follow directions and be patient....so each progression will require "secrets" and thus a long form is broken down into teaching parts.
I am very interested in how teaching chi sau and fighting with the long SLT was achieved, i.e how much did a beginner learn, was it in steps, and does that give hints to how they formed the three form varient over time? Did it ever have numerous middle forms(more than 1 way to do what we call Chum Kiu now) before they settled in on a secret third form? I await the next decade of videos and books from you on this topic. Very exciting.
The secret society period surely hid stuff and that forces three versions: Public forms, private methods taught in school that should remain secret but often leak out into the world, and secret methods for the Si-Fu's family. That seems to be true for any martial art I think, but politics and social unrest forced it into the society secrecy in China.
GM Yip Man was one of six students of Sifu Yeun Kay San....given this message and a beginning point to grow it. What did he hear and see and understand differently compared to his five peers? My sihings and Sifu's have always challenged me to catch them and pass them. The mottos and literature are used by all of us TOGETHER to grow the martial art. Sometimes it is a young genius that hears the teachers lesson and then teaches the teacher something from it!
My final note on this: I was given cryptic mottos to grow with by my first Si-Hing, lessons he learned from Leung Ting and Sifu Elmond Leung in San Franscisco. I am one of those genius kids and I grew with them, and when my teacher moved I had to invent teaching methods to run my school. Years later a High Level tech taught me a lesson, a "secret" he said, but it was something I had already discovered on my own. He wanted to OWN this secret now that he "taught" it to me. Later he got mad at me for teaching it and claimed I had violated his trust by teaching HIS STUFF. So I stopped taking lessons from him unfortunately, as he felt ownership of my free thinking. It is not HIS secret nor was I stealing the path of discovery from new students. It was the lesson for everyone. I bring this up only for sociology reference. Yip Man traveled around and had many lessons. The idea or teaching methods that resulted in the SNT/CK/BJ may have been know by Yip Man prior to becoming a student of Sifu Yeun Kay San's line. I knew the secret and I sought out people who could teach me more. You know I have strong faith in the story of Yip Man and Leung Bik. I will agree with your research that the three form split was not official at that point in time. But whatever was going on with the art that produced this change was present, and Leung Bik could have offered directions and mottos Yip Man carried as a guide for his whole life. For me it was mottos from Sifu Elmond Leung, who I only meet one time, but it was these mottos that steered me. He showed us the Pentgon stepping pattern really fast when we meet, what a huge difference that single ten minutes made on my school and my life.
Sorry to make such a long winded post....I hope it helps the algorhythem if nothing else.....
@@DrTzeus Thank you for the long comment it’s appreciated, maybe it’s an idea for you to come to the Eternal Spring institute in Madeira in the future for some days to meet me in person.
Do you think its possible Ip Man learned the knives from Yuen Kay San or was that already there in the Leung Jan-Chan Wah Shun lineage because it looked as though it was there in the gulao lineage??
@@mgk22 He did not learn a fix sequence from Yuen Kay San, he eventually however in HK taught a few different Double knive sets.
@@SifuSergioChannel so then he may have learned maybe some sets (not a sequence) from YKS then teaches his own approach to that in HK or just nothing and what he taught in HK was 100% his own creation?
Thank you for sharing.
@@MikeS24-v4s You are welcome
I have a question please. In the online program, how long does it take until the learner can get to know the Tian Zhaolin Lineage? Thanks.
time to rewrite the true linage of Wing Chun masters
@@nerolowell2320 A lot of that is done already through my book “The history of Wing Chun&The Six Core Elements”
Not really *5 masters of different styles train and mix systems underground after the burning of the Southern Shaolin temple!*
*Ng mui a Shaolin nun was one of those five! She used Fu jan "White Crane" also used in the Hung family system, and discarded Fu jow the male strength essence of tiger for dim Cheung palm strikes also found in the Hung family systems! The only added is a short fist form of snake creating narrower stances and circular stepping!*
A *pattern stepping repeated in the original plum blossom another system Ng mui knew. All these were passed to Yim Wing Chun. In that there is no deviation (except maybe the actual person Wing Chun that is another story though).*
@@Viktor-jm9tg Nope the art of Ng Mui (Fujian white crane) and Mui Shun (Emei) where fused two specific forms of their respective arts and created the ancient single long set Siu Lin Tau in 1790 which in 1850’s after the burning of the King Fa Wui Koon gave rise to the creation of Wing Chun Kuen in the secret society. Anyway it’s all in my book in details with over 400 pages of info.
Hi Sifu Sergio. Great video again!🙏🏻 Hope you don’t mind me asking, but I’m curious about the 1700s SLT form you teach. May I respectfully ask which specific lineages you consider to be teaching a pre-Ip Man version of Wing Chun? What are the key differences between them, your version and the more widely known Ip Man versions?
@@kringdal746 The Law family snake crane, Yuen Kay San lineage for example both predate Ip man’s Foshan Wing Chun in case of the Yuen Kay San lineage however not by much and its also important to note that they where friends. Ip man Never formally did Bai See with Yuen Kay San
@@SifuSergioChannel Great! Thank you Sifu 🙏🏻.
And Yik kam Wing Chun kuen? Isnt it older?
@@giuliancity2507 The Yik kam Siu Lin Tau (training of the little details set) which was formed in 1790’s is not really Wing Chun Kuen, as the name and three set format of Wing Chun Kuen came about in 1850’s but yes the ancient Single long set Siu Lin Tau predates that
It will be a little bold statement for me to said that anything you find in wing chun, you can also find it on Hung Gar too.😂
❤❤❤ woow
It's hung ga influences wing chun or wing chun influences hung ga? You have to be careful? Because I hear of a fight between hung ga and wing chu. One tradition is the one who loose have to learn from the winning side.
Thank you for all your research!
@@gsao5326 You are welcome