Fun fact: absolutely n o w h e r e was it said that the henchmen were mindless drones without feelings like some commenters are saying. They made sarcastic quips, they ran in fear, they acted surprised. Y’all can’t just make stuff up to cope with this common issue tons of movies suffer from. Just because an older TF continuity made that choice 15 years ago doesn’t make it a good defense for the inconsistent morals in THIS movie. For those who don’t know: It’s an issue tons of movies have, because filmmakers usually don’t want to deal with the extra work of writing a story that remains morally consistent (it probably makes creating cool action scenes way more difficult). And that’s besides the fact that they killed plenty of other bots that weren’t generic soldiers lol so this isn’t even an argument. Point is, Hollywood needs to stop using this crutch as a lazy plot device.
I don’t know. They don’t say it outright, but they also aren’t named like Airachnid who have personalities/real identities. They come in groups of completely looking identical looking bots, when the movie HAS shown crowds with unique people like the Miners or High Guard. Still, willing to admit it’s not confirmed. Prime’s vehicons all looked the same and weren’t drones
They are Vehicons, and even if they arent fully alive, even the TFP ones had LIMTIED freedoms. They were made via cold constructions which meant they had no spark, they were effectively heartless. It isn't lazy, its on par with what Sentinal would have done. Why make or train soldiers that will question your morals and evil acts? Why would THEY be okay with him handing "their" planet over? Vehicons exist to be a faceless drone army, the Blokees toyline calls them "Death Stalkers" which just sounds evil. This movie is about breaking the chains of an enslaved underground society, there are such things as KILLING your oppressors and aggressors. It is morally justified. The Vehicons also sucked at combat, they did not really seem competent in any respect. They even are deocrated in TFP canon colors to Starscreams Aerial Unit during the Darkmount section of TFP. [These specific ones are white, black and silver and show up during the Alpha Trion chase scene] They are decorated in specific colors for specific regions or purposes. The Gold being the elite guard that Sentinal has for his Throne and body guards and then the purple and black for standard guard and infantry. Theres no reason or evidence to suggest they are alive in any respect that matters. Its the same thing as killing a battle droid. They have limited freedoms but ARE evil. They cant fully change that.
No it's not confirmed so it's not an airtight retort, but they certainly appear mindless as they don't yell in agony, or even appear to feel pain, and only one of them talked and when he did he sounded mindless. The only thing that really makes them appear alive is when those two yellow ones ran from B. I do feel that this could've been handled better by giving them clearly sentient henchmen, and showing Optimus and the others really try to disarm them and make them not a threat, but I still feel that there's a big difference from killing someone in battle in self defense and killing someone who is essentially begging for mercy and who has clearly lost. And when did the good guys ever kill people that weren't generic soldiers, what?
i don't remember any of the drones actually talking, but some of them did show emotion similar to TFprime's vehicons. i'll pay attention next time when it comes to streaming services
10:45 For me the no killing was more, "you don't get to play judge jury & executioner because you're angry, Sentinal has wronged you, but he's wronged everyone, we all have a say in his fate & punishment, sure he may be called to death, but that's for Iacon to decide, not one man." I think that's the crux of Orion's message there, he might probably want Sentinal as dead as D-16 does, but they can't just go around killing people they don't like, there must be due process.
i saw it more as they couldn't kill him because there was no reason to, in previous scenes they were getting attacked by drones and running away wasn't the best option so they had to fight back to defend themselves but sentinel in the end was running and couldn't fight back so there was no need to kill him besides personal grudges
this was how i took it too, that and the fact Sentinel was kinda begging for his life, a crowd gathered, public execution of someone regardless of how many people hate the person, is a bit extreme. There are going to be people no matter what, that may be angry, but dont want to actually witness that kind of thing.
Exactly. Pax was seeking justice the whole movie, specifically justice for the miners. So he was of that mind from jump. He saw no Justice in what D wanted to do and also felt like he was losing his friend in the process.
Reminds me of AC3, when Washington told Connor that Charles Lee's punishment must be done properly, otherwise Washington and his army would be no better than the enemy.
In my mind, the whole "Can't kill the bad guy" trope made sense in this scenario for a few reasons The Death Trackers are like the Vehicons, they aren't fully sentient (or at least that's what it seems like) they're like drones, so that makes sense why killing Sentinel would be different. Killing in self defense like in the battles is fundamentally different from publicly executing a defenseless Sentinel, a very prominent political leader might I add, that's begging for mercy in front of a crowd. But I also see why Sentinel should have died, but I see it more as Orion stopping D-16 from losing himself by killing him. I'm not trying to argue, that's just how I saw it, love the content.
This is good a thought process, Sentinel in all of our eyes should die but that’s where Optimus and Megatron are different, war is messy and awful, there’s no escape that someone is gonna die, but in sentinel case when he hits the center of Iacon, he’s become a disabled and disarmed man, Optimus realize there’s no point in fighting him anymore as not only he’s lost his power metaphorically but physically too, he can’t even stand up or fly, Megatron and how many of us view it Sentinel took everything from US and should die, megatron took the righteous movement or rather was never focused on it all and made it personal, it would’ve never made him feel satisfied and it’s shown literally right after, saying all of his followers must die even tho he had no followers just people who were deceived like megatron
Plus killing a Prime in front of everyone would also have serious political, religious and social ramifications. Remember what exactly kickstarted WWI?
Yup. Optimus didn't give a sh*t about Sentinel, he didn't even explicitly state that Sentinel should not pay for his crimes with his life, he just didn't want it to be 1) a gruesome public execution in front of Iacon citizens and 2) the point where D gives up his "humanity" by murdering a defenseless pathetic loser.
The whole point of Orion not wanting to kill Sentinel at that moment is just exactly what he said ' rebuilding iacon cannot begin with an execution." Basically how i see it is that orion knows d16 wants to kill him at that moment, but the right choice was to arrest him and be punished accordingly later on, be it death sentence or whatever. Orion sees the implications of killing sentinel right after he got exposed, which is exactly what happens right after where its just chaos. Its more of the consequences of killing sentinel at that moment rather than "oh we cannot kill the main villian even though he deserves it " trope. The efforts put up by fans to promote this movie should not be downplayed, its been a long time since transformers fans have collectively come together to support the franchise especially for a movie. Just because it wasn't as successful in boosting the box office doesn't mean it did not help at all. And most of the tweets are just personal wishes and projections which can be unrealistic but its okay for people to just have some hope
10:54 I too agree. Optimus Prime's goal was to reform Cybertron's corrupted goverment and the make Sentinel stand trial for his crimes while D16 wanted revolution, summary execution of Sentinel Prime and the downfall of the goverment. Sentinel Prime wouldn't yield until all his efforts to protect is agendas are diminished as such, it was inevitable a war had to happen.
For the whole sentinel execution scene I felt that when orion confronted D it wasn’t that he was against killing sentinel and wanted to kill him in a legal situation, like putting him on trial for execution.
I think people who think Orion was stupid and/or hypocritical for not wanting D-16 to off Sentinel really don't know the difference between killing an enemy in self-defense and *coldly executing* a guy who was *already rendered defenseless and begging* in front of millions of people (which tbf is what Bayverse Prime did so maybe some wires were crossed) Oh yeah and even D-16 pointed it out himself, he and others like the High Guard used to be fanatically loyal to Sentinel before being aware of the betrayal, and they took it so poorly that they became murderously violent to anything they saw as remotely connected to him (fuckin Soundwave had a lie detector telling him our heroes were on their side and Starscream didn't buy it). You could argue Orion, who probably wants Sentinel dead too, simply doesn't want *D* to be the one to do it.
10:45 EDIT: taking back the mindless drone argument, unless the director confirms it It’s not really worth arguing about, still keeping the next part though it’s not really about whether or not killing sentinel is bad, it’s about who was behind the trigger. Orion kept seeing this anger and hatred festering inside D-16, and if he claimed this life, he would cross a path that he could never come back from. That’s what he was really trying to stop. heck that’s why he got in the way at the climax. it wasn’t about protecting the horrible dictator, it was about the faith that he still had for his best friend, this belief that he would still listen to him. Edit: Also, looking back at it, I don’t think it’s really out of nowhere. I think the anger and frustration in D-16 had already been festering by the time the movie had started, with how easily he was with threatening Orion with violence and how he used the faith in the system as a way to cope with his unfair spot in life. So ones that was gone, what’s there for him to cling to? Nothing matters to him anymore by that point. If anything he found freedom in the chaos.
"I'd transform into a shovel, and beat you" "How about I kill you for waking me up" And others. He was obviously joking. But his default to violence is, like you said, a huge tell.
The funny thing about your problem with heroes not killing villains is the Bayverse Optimus is the exact opposite. I rewatched Dark of The Moon and Optimus murders both Megatron and Sentinal without any hesitation or remorse in that movie.
Killing sentinel at that moment was an execution. (Which Optimus also mentions with the same word) It wasn’t during a fight. He was defeated and weak, cowering away. That is the difference between all the other deaths up to that time.
Not once in the movie did Orion object to Sentinel's death. The difference between D16 and Orion was that one wanted Justice, and the other wanted Vengeance. Neither was wrong. Megatron's banishment wasn't for killing Sentinel it was for lashing out at the innocent civilians of Iacon. I think the third act needed another 20min to real sell you that Megatron went too far.
@@Baconchilldophin this is the craziest take I've seen on the internet today. "you bested me in a 1v1 fight so therefore I am now a defenseless victim" bro stfu 🙄
Orions whole point is that you don't get to do what they did, because it makes you no better than them. Killing sentinel is in principle no better than sentinel killing the primes. Yall forget optimus doesn't like murder bc of these live action films? He believes in justice, if he is brought to death by that system then so be it but he can't stand by and let someone be judge jury and executioner, even if what the defendant did was despicable
@@Liiiishhhha He was badly damaged, his feet seemed to be stuck in engine mode since he didn't just stand up, and if you look closely, his wings break off when he hits the ground. He can't run, he can't fight, he can't even stand. I'd call that defenseless.
9:38 In my defence, Sentinel Prime is a character who is able to manipulate his cybertronians into believing every word he said. He was open to admitting his wrongdoings as he wasn't afraid that the real truth could be revealed as long as he had a large following and authority that is until his lies were revealed. Without mentioning those details, it would be difficult for the audience to understand the villan's intentions and how it can lead to his eventual downfall.
The key thing that ruined the movie, was the marketing. Made it look like just another “kids” movie that just happened to be transformers related. Boy was it more than just a “kids” movie. Watch the movie, the trailers and marketing don’t do this movie justice.
My favorite part has to be when Optimus grabs some guy with his arms and legs and then just splits him himself. Like it’s so creative but brutal at the same time
one of my favourite interpretations of Orion stopping d-16 was that he knew if d-16 continued, he would eventually become something worse, like Megatron, so whilst Orion was still trying to stop D-16 from taking someone's life, it was mainly as he knew that it would permanently change D-16 for the worse
We needed such a well composed take such as this man. I really REALLY want a trilogy out of this and for transformers marketing in general to take a step up. Like was there ever an Legacy Evolution or United commercial? I haven’t seen it and Google 100 percent knows I eat that all day long
Regarding killing Sentinel, its worth noting that he was defeated and defenseless while the Troopers/Vehicons were all killed in battle (still weird that they were making jokes about it though). D16 killed an unarmed enemy, making it an execution.
He wasn’t defeated or defenseless, he was losing a fight and started running out of weapons. That’s how a fight works when you’re fighting to the death. You can’t just paint him as a defenseless victim the second he starts to lose. This is insanity.
@@ConfusedCrawDad he lost when he started to beg for his life and tried to pull the "we can rule together" card like every coward does when he can't escape and after D-16 missed his first fusion cannon shot and showed the damage he could do with it. Unless Sentinel pulls a backhanded attack if say someone turns their back to him, the moral choice is to let the tyrant stand trial, not execute him on the spot.
The way I see it, the Vehicons aren't sentient. They act and move like typical robot soldiers, kinda like Battle Droids from Star Wars. They don't seem to feel pain or anything, such as the one that punched B-127 and got its hand all messed up, it didn't seem to feel pain, it just looked confused for a moment, then went back to attack B.
@@ConfusedCrawDad nobody is painting him as a victim, but he was defenseless. The point was "you don't get to play judge jury & executioner because you're angry, Sentinal has wronged you, but he's wronged everyone, we all have a say in his fate & punishment, sure he may be called to death, but that's for lacon to decide, not one man."
There's literally a difference between killing a surrendering, begging enemy who can't fight vs killing in an active warzone when your getting attacked and you have to defend yourself 💀 this is why people are mad about Sentinel's execution in DOTM too. Obviously Sentinel deserves a death sentence but Im not against Orion's actions too much. Besides you could take this deeper and and say that executing Sentinel right there would literally make D-16's case even worse. I do find Orion's choice to put himself between Sentinel and D when D was about to shoot a little questionable though. Perhaps Orion expected that D wouldn't shoot once he was on his way. I find the designs in the movie awesome. I couldn't care less about the faces, when faces like these have been designed for the characters like.. the entirety of the franchise. For example TFP. NO ONE had a problem with their faces, everyone loves those designs! but now it's a problem for TF ONE? TF ONE's designs are also quite complex and unique despite their more simple shapes which i really enjoy. Optimus Prime's design in this has become my favourite OP design. That's a lot of yapping to say that i agree and disagree with stuff that you said in this review. (I commented about stuff i disagreed with though coz im smort🗿) Great video though! Loved the setting of being in the theatre.
Maybe watch the actual scene again? Not ONCE did sentinel “surrender” like people keep pretending. He started losing the fight and immediately resorted to persuading D-16 into leading as a tyrant with him. I’m genuinely concerned you and many others seem to think that qualifies as a surrender. Also, yes sentinel and D-16 were literally in a “war zone” for all intents and purposes. Sentinel had them captured and was torturing D-16 before the tides turned and sentinel started losing the fight. Yall are genuinely just rewriting what happened in the movie I don’t get it
@@ConfusedCrawDad You might actually be a psychopath. D-16 tackled Sentinel off a building after the fight ended, snapped his wings off and tried to execute him. It wasn't a "fight"
The reason Orion tells D-16 to stop, and not kill sentinel is because the situation has changed. They don’t need to kill anymore because the battle is over. Sentinel is defeated and everyone knows his true colors.
Its rare when a video on this platform is structured so well i didnt even agree with a few of your points but you conveyed them so well i saw the logic in all of them
One thing I’ve noticed, as a life-long Transformers fan, I’ve seen a lot of this negativity and pessimism in the community the past few years. I saw it with Rise Of The Beasts when it got delayed from Covid, I saw it when Earthspark came out and it was immediately hated on for being a Transformers show aimed for younger audiences, I still occasionally see it with Transformers Reactivate and if it’s coming out, despite the fact that Splash Damage has said that they haven’t cancelled any of their previously announced projects multiple times, and I saw it on full display with this movie. After that first trailer everyone gave up hope on it being good, until the movie proved them wrong. But even then that hopelessness shifted from, “This is going to be terrible” to “Were never getting a sequel” and yet, it was recently announced that Hasbro’s president is in talks with Josh Cooley about continuing the Trilogy. That being said, I don’t condone lying about Box Office projections to manufacture hope. I just wish that our community would stop being so pessimistic about the franchise’s future. I don’t consider it Toxic Positivity to be hopeful in a Community seemingly made up of people who give up before we’ve even lost.
10:55 I think the idea is that Optimus wanted to put Sentinal up for trial, and Sentinal's army is either made up of drones, or it's justified to kill them for self defense.
In regards to the point where he complains about choosing not to kill Sentinel, despite killing countless of his lackies, I think there is some context that should be considered. When it comes to Sentinel's lackies, it was a series of "kill or be killed" situations. Or even "kill or be captured and eventually be publicly executed." As for the scene where Orion tells D-16 not to kill Sentinel, it's important to remember that Sentinel seems pretty defenseless at that point. Most good depictions of Optimus show him as a trained soldier who knows that sometimes, violence and even killing are often inevitable. But, he would rather avoid those option, if possible. And he especially, doesn't want to execute a defenseless enemy. Sentinel's lackies didn't give them much of a choice. Orion truly proved that he was worthy of being a Prime, leading Cybertron, and bearing the Matrix when he showed that killing an unarmed/defenseless enemy isn't the way to lead by example.
The fact that no one has mentioned the "crunchy grape" metaphor tells me that grape quality has dropped significantly. Love the videos! Thank you for being you!
My personal interpretation is that Pax didn't want D to go down the same route because later, he said, "Don't be like sentinel" to D. But overall optimus doesn't like seeing anyone killed if they can't fight back anymore. Unless if it's a bay film he would just cut their head off or something.
I get your talk about the problem of the killing in movies. BUT, there is a fundamental difference between killing someone actively attacking you during a war in self-defense and executing a groveling defeated enemy
While I agree that usually, the tone shift between killing henchmen and refusing to kill the big scheming bad is terrible, here, I just always understood it as the clear difference between killing in the heat of battle and executing a (mostly) defenseless enemy who is actively pleading for their life. Which was one of the stronger critiques of Bayformers: starting in Revenge, where Optimus shoots Demolishor point blank when he's no longer a threat. But yeah, the quipping while killing really is terrible and inexcusable. B-127 even wanting to pursue the death trackers who run away screaming being the worst of it.
Bro your desktop background in that sponsored segment was bugging the absolute shit out of me I thought it was real first but then I realized it was just a picture I’m dead 😭💀
10:18 The message was already sent, the battle is over, so killing Sentinel would be pointless by that point. They've killed lots before that point because their main objective is not yet completed.
HEAVY on the "killing whoever we want" trope used in EVERY action movie this decade!! It HAS to stop. I really appreciate how reasonable you are with your criticisms, you just make sense.
No person want anyone to die, not even D-16 at the very beginning. But once someone's perspective is shattered, there is no holding back because there is nothing to lose. On the contrary, Orion Pax wanted no one to die and just have defeats to overcome. Because at the end of the day, they all still sleep to fight life another day, but without rules or boundaries, what is the goal when not all are one?
I remember the last "Badassatron" hitting like "yeah you are" when he got all his battle implements...also, this is the best transformers movie, bar none. Also, the faces are more palatable than the mechanical faces of the Bay films, they have a more natural feel and being living being why wouldn't they have faces? Sure, the flexible part would probably be some sort of nano or army or some unknown material that's really tough and super flexible...who knows. All I know is it was like seeing the 80's cartoon come to life and I dug it. Also, the majority of bots that were destroyed were vehicons, basically soulless AI combat drones. Outside of Sentinel the only other bots to die in this movie were Alpha Tripn and some of the high guard when Airacnid went game on them. All the others were just animated practice dummies basically. They're sort of clones that don't have the living spark in them but are still somewhat functional.
Optimus and the others killed when they had to, when they were under attack and had no choice. Sentinel was at a disadvantage and was not fighting back, so they didn't want to kill him.
He was absolutely not at a disadvantage lol, he just lost the fight even after starting with the upper hand. He’s not a helpless victim just because he lost a 1v1
@@papermelon his wings were knocked off, and he was seemingly injured further by how he didn't transform his feet back or whip out his hand cannons, though that is admittedly speculation. Still, he was no longer fighting back. He is also the only character in the film who died who clearly had a conscience and thoughts unlike the drones who appeared mostly mindless apart from the two who ran from B. So to me, it seems fair to say it's wrong to kill the guy who at this point will gain nothing from fighting back because he has lost.
@@DanielLovesArt your selective reasoning for what separates an “execution” from “justified killing” is abstract and fundamentally flawed. Sentinel got damaged BECAUSE they were fighting to the death and D-16 was winning. That’s how fighting TO THE DEATH works lol. but D-16 is morally obligated to stop suddenly because sentinel prime…asked him to nicely? Because he got hurt? Wtf. This is an insane take.
@@papermelon I understand the arguments against the points used here, I get that, although I think there's a stronger point that can be used/to be made, about why Orion was against killing Sentinel, and he essentially says it in the film itself. I think the point purely just came down to Orion wanting to ensure that them rebuilding cybertron wasn't 'started', with D-16 effectively doing what Sentinel would've done, and publicly executing him. Orion says this himself twice, once when he stops D from shooting Sentinel the first time, "Rebuilding Cybertron cannot begin with an exection, DON'T be like Sentinel." And then again, when he'd bested Megatron after their fight, "We were given the power to change our world, and you chose to destroy it, JUST LIKE Sentinel." In Orion's view, by publicly executing Sentinel, it essentially just meant swapping around one violent dictator, for another. He didn't want to see his best friend become blinded by the same anger and wrath, and end up essentially taking up the same role as Sentinel, being blind to it and believing his way is right. Which is what Megatron believes. It just comes down to the fact that while yes his reasons for wanting to murder Sentinel were justified, there had to have been a line drawn, where things are taken too far. Megatron literally even then says himself afterwards, "Burn it down, all of it" While then blasting at everything around him, and B says, "He's gonna kill everyone." And again afterwards, Megatron emphasises his goals go beyond just killing Sentinel, when he also says, "It's OVER, when every last one of his followers are DEAD" By that point he'd very obviously crossed that line
@@Jlickinstudios1989Yes, because there's a process to everything. You cannot be the judge, jury and executioner for a mistake that both personally wronged you as well as thousand other people. That's what Optimus has always stood for, i.e., justice. Sentinel should have gotten what he deserved - a death sentence - from a systemic evidential standpoint and not from a coup. The former makes it a judiciary, the latter tyranny.
While I was watching the movie, I felt like the troops the main characters killed were all drones, like in TF prime, so I kinda understood why they didn't care about killing them, but im honestly not sure.
personally i saw the fast pacing actually works for D-16 heel-turn because that way it make sure that D cannot emotionally process his feelings and emotions in a healthy way. followed by Orion's growing concern for his miner buddy as his mental state deteriorates (the particular scene where D's laughing after he transformed for the first time while killing Sentinel mooks brings a bittersweet feeling) but i can see why some people still missed it. 10:30 however I take a huge issue with because I actually thought this is one of the better use of "if you kill him, you will be just like him" scenario "Rebuilding Iacon cannot begin with an execution" Orion stopping D was not because he wanted to let Sentinel go scot-free, but because he does not want D to create a symbol that represents the leadership going forward to based on a philosophy of "might is right" and "the wronged will be immediately executed" as Orion knows that history would only see it as a despot taking over another. Orion wanted justice against sentinel where he is judged by the people of Iacon who he had wronged, not to be executed for one's violent catharsis. when Orion and the gang of miners alongside the high guard mount a rebellion, the situation does not call for peaceful methods so Orion, Elita, and Bee only kill because at the time that was the only option. but after Sentinel is finally exposed, he had lost his power both physically and politically. At this point the peaceful approach had finally open it's door... only for D to slam it shut so he can pursue his own personal vengeance. there is a clear difference between killing in the heat of battle and killing a basically unarmed surrendering enemy (dude literally had to crawl at that point). this symbolically represents that the new government will be based one where if the leader sees you as wrong, there will be violent repercussions without a chance of defending or even considering other punishments. A government where the first leader got that position in the first place was by unnecessary violence isn't a great look is it? Orion banishing D for betraying him was not because he let him fall or even killing sentinel but because D-16 (now Megatron) decide and to lash out against the citizens of Iacon because he had nowhere else to aim his rage even though they were just as clueless as the miners. Megatron trough killing Sentinel became a symbol of the strong will in the top, in other words, Tyranny. Sadly, even though the banishment was intended to save Megatron from a harsher punishment, Megatron took that as Optimus upholding the old system, and so the Decepticon faction was borne using Megatronus's face, effectively painting him as not the noble prime that he is. but simply THE FALLEN.
One thing about the movie I absolutely adored was the transformations and fight cartography. I’m not sure about the comics but when it comes to onscreen this is the most unique ways transformers ever fought, really puts the “transform” into “Transformers”. Cause for the most part, transformers fights were just giant robots punching or shooting eachother, nothing much special other than they can turn into vehicles to either run away or hide, sometimes gaining access to new weapons or abilities in vehicle mode but nothing much other than that. It wasn’t until recently Transformers media has been exploring the idea of partial transformation, allowing bots to partially transform into their vehicle forms to get a better advantage. This was beautifully shown in TFOne, during the Iacon 5000 you had the racer bots partially transform to throw Orion and D16 off them but still mostly be in vehicle mode to continue racing, you got the scene when Elita, D, Bee and Orion try to use their t-cogs but fail leading to partial transformation, something which comes back later in the movie when they are fighting such as Megatron transforming his feet to hit Starscream or Optimus transforming to hide his head and dodge a blow from Megs. My Favourite scene tho? Megs vs Prime. That scene was just brilliant with how it utilised transforming while fighting, Optimus using his smokestacks as a jet punch, but the best part imo was when Prime ripped off Meg’s canon and throws it back at him, which is when MEGS JUST TRANSFORMS TO REATTACH HIS CANON! THAT WAS SO COOL!!!!! Even if unfortunately we don’t get a sequel to this, I really hope we see this style of fighting carries over to future series
On the topic of the murdering henchmen, I'm pretty sure it's implied that they were mindless drones? I may not remember correctly but did they even have a line?
Okay everyone talking about Megatron and sentinal and the reasoning for why or why not killing him is a good idea but one of the biggest things for me is how Megatron states that he has every intention of razing the city to the ground which Optimus is against. The other thing, when sentinal was on the ground he wasn't fighting back, when an antagonist is killed in the movie they are attempting to harm or kill the main protagonists. Its nuanced, but i don't necessarily disagree with the point being made. I agree that there are times where the merciful good guy is done poorly because it requires a lot of nuance or well shown points throughout the movie. Yes it could have been done better, but i don't really have an issue with it personally.
I feel like there's some stuff being missed in the big disagreement scene on Sentinel's fate. (I know a few others have already mentioned this, but I feel some of them have also missed some details about it) Note how Orion doesn't disagree with D-16 when he says Sentinel deserves to die, just when he states that he "needs to do this". At this point, they've absolutely won, all of Iacon knows the truth, and are quickly turning against Sentinel. Sentinel was beaten, he was basically helpless (by no means is he a victim though), he was literally begging for his life by offering co-rulership to D-16. What I'm trying to get at here, is that what Orion is trying to convey to his friend when he says things like "rebuilding Iacon can't start with an execution" and "don't be like Sentinel" isn't "Killing is wrong... even though we had a kill a bunch of guys to get here," what he means is "the fate of one bot shouldn't be decided by one other alone. Because that's how Sentinel did it" he's saying that they're needs to be a due process, that the fate of their now deposed ruler needs to be decided by ALL of Iacon, not by him or by D-16 alone.
Kids should also learn that crime has an equal punishment. Digital Courthouse did a look at the two villains, Sentinel Prime and Megetron (D-16). It would be mercy for him to have died because his crimes would lead to 7 death penalties, 4 life sentences, and $1,000,000 in damages.
As a parent I wonder about the fuss with swear words. Children don't learn by denying, they learn by actually doing things (wrong) and learning when and when it is not appropriate to use swear words.
10:56 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Ok ok ok listen listen listen. in his defense they were attacked first in that scene. And those iacon guards were trying to capture them so they could get executed so like come on cut him some slack
Not even Michael Bay would force and awkward love story between Optimus and Elita. Instead he opted to have her guts blown out in the Desert fight in ROTF...
One thing I disagree with slightly was D-16's quick switch to Megaton and being maniacally insane. He always had that maniacal nature before the truth. Some examples are his remarks to Orion throughout the first act. "I'd transform into a shovel and beat you." "What if I kill you for waking me up." "If we survive this, I'm going to kill you!" He always had that nature but didn't truly act on it so he could do his best to help Cybertron. But when the truth came out, he had no care anymore. His life was a lie. Only thing he can do is act on his own. Only bot he can count on his him.
The faces are supposed to add to relatability plus they remind me of Greek statues which gives a certain "War in Olympus" vibe to the overall story, connecting it with human history and mythos. I mean, if Transformers were actually real, they'd probably look like non-Euclidean, terrifying monstrosities that would make Bayverse designs look like your neighbors. For me the issue in this movie was throwing Optimus into the mines with Megatron, as in all other iterations they have very different backgrounds.
I respect the face designs, Josh Cooley said he didn't want any greeblies distracting from the performance of the characters and I think that's totally fair. It also mean that the characters that do have those lines and streaks on their face end up looking older and wiser, and I think that's fantastic.
@@Romapolitanhe called them nitpicks when they were very obviously valid criticism even if you don’t agree. So yes, he clearly can’t handle any criticism considering how he’s minimizing them in his comment.
@ConfusedCrawDad Nitpicks are not called nitpicks by how valid they are. It just means making small criticisms of a medium. So again he just disagrees, there is no reason for agression.
I love that you are able to talk about this movie in a constructively critical way. The fandom has been (rightfully) complimenting this movie to hell and back and while Im happy to have a good transformers movie that actually respects the source material; I do think this movie could've been much greater and I think we need to stay critical so that whatever comes next has the chance to be even greater. I wish the story was much deeper and the character work more consistent and thought out. I think even staying in a PG environment you can make a great movie about social inequality and how different people respond to it through the transformers brand.
I think TFOne was amazing but the faces were pretty bad and should have been more machine like. Optimus trying to stop D16 from killing sentinel is probably because he knew something was going on with D16and that he was turning into megatron. They are also trying not kill, if they get the chance to not do so, they wont. The henchmen were killed because it was the only way t o get to sentinel and stop him from ruling cybertron and even extending his army but the you did make a good point on directors killing of loads of side characters just because there not the main character or a more significant one.
From they way you worded it, I think the whole raspy voice thing for Elita is more of a personal preference than an actual criticism. Unlike the forced Optimus Prime voice you pointed out, it doesn't seem like Scarlett did a poor job voicing Elita. I myself find that it fits just fine
Thank you for mentioning the cope the community had with the box office. People need to realize that if America didnt give a lot towards the movie. Then its not gonna do good. Yes I know america really isnt the only place in the world, but thats where most of the appeal is.
About Chris Hemsworth "forced" Optimus Prime voice, while I don't disagree that it does somewhat sound forced, in case anyone missed the memo, Peter Cullen himself was a consultant on Hemsworth's voice performance. At least the man tried, could be worse. I found his performance alright but I'm not a critic so.
I think the reason why Orion didn't try to kill Sentinel is because Sentinel has more effect on changing the belief of Iacon city. Just killing the guards won't affect the peace of the city, but Sentinel will incite the city's citizens to revolt and it will be more dangerous because kill sentinel is also a symbol of the courage to resist, which can incite a revolution more worse, risking further massacre, remember that Sentinel holds the trust of the entire city of Iacon, it has a greater impact on the trust of the city than the guard.
The whole point of not executing Sentinel is about the foundation of the new Cybertron should not start with a public execution and bypassing a true fair justice system and trial.
Saying this movie was perfect is something I’ll say in my heart but Ik isn’t true but maybe another reason pax told D not to kill sentinel was because of the things he would do after and the fact D was blinded by rage and we all know what D did after killing sentinel and his choice on how cybertron would go into the future, and the trackers are based of vehicons which Ik people will say “where did you here that they weren’t sentient??” Just take a look at them, do they look like any other cybertronians? There only with sentinel and they also look like vehicons. I respect your criticisms and opinions and this is my take on things
Okay in defense of the whole not killing Sentinel thing I feel a lot of people are treating it with too much white and black. You'll notice that Orion said and I am quoting here "Rebuilding Iacon cannot BEGIN with an execution" I feel that rather saying that we can't kill the bad guy at all that rather we can't start off rebuilding and fixing what he broke with it. Instead I think it says that now is not the time to do this we need to rebuild and a proper trial to decide his date which could still have ended in Sentinel's execution or at least life time imprisonment with the cog plucked from his chest and forced to mine for the rest of his life.
10:42 *Most* of the Bots they kill are Vehicons, which don’t have free will and are technically not even alive. I get where you’re coming from, but this point lacks the full context
they don't have free will because...you decided? it doesn't even imply that once during the movie. either way, like he said plenty of the kills were not vehicons. So I think it's a strange point to argue imo
I don’t know if that’s true, I just looked up vehicons. It sounds like depending on the media like comics or tv shows that Vehicons are alive and sentient. They are just on the bottom of food chain, so they are used to death. Also there is still a living transformer, their death isn’t meaningless.
@@Liiiishhhha I’m basing that off of previous transformer media. I’m just assuming so because it’s an established part of the lore in some continuities
Absolutely dropped everything when I saw this uploaded!! Dissapointed I'm a day late, but oh well... Another banger, as usual!! I totally agree with your statement about how weird the marketing was. I am a huge transformers fan as well, and I have been for as long as I can remember... But I did NOT want to go see this movie. I just completely wrote it off as "Oh, looks boring, might not see it," Despite really liking the look of the animation. I didn't even go see it in theatres; I only watched it when my brother dragged me into the living room to watch TFOne on our home television. Movie was great, but I agree that D16's turn felt a little bit abrupt haha.. Seeing everybody praise it for being incredibly subtle and well-done made me feel like a crazy person. Thank you for validating me on this and calling out his weird journey. But thank you so much for uploading!! Haha seeing your videos makes me so excited for the passion that still exists in the TH-cam community. Love your positivity and brilliantly subtle , yet powerful editing choices! I loved seeing the tiny transformers hidden around the theatre. Additionally, I am SUPER curious about what your next video will be! I'm wondering if it has something to do with traveling... There was a segment in the ad-read that mentioned traveling around the world, but that could have been stock-footage for all I know. That previous mega-video about going to every target was one of the greatest pieces of media to ever be created, sooo... I'll turn my notifs on so I'm not late for this next video! I'm hella hyped
Heavily disagree on Sentinel/The Drones getting killed point. the point that other people trying to make is that shit like this happens irl, in war murder is almost necessary in self defense. BUT Leaders/Generals are usually captured and executed in a public trial to slowly show the world that it's OVER and to make sure that killing them is a choice by EVERYONE who was a victim not just one selfish dude who barely gives a shit about others (megatron) , but foot soldiers usually get killed on the spot because that's how war works, they are fodder in a ongoing war where "cause" matters more. THEY CHOSE to follow Sentinel and they are all aware of his shit, so their LIFE is THEIR responsibility not Optimus, trust me if they surrendered then Optimus would gladly spare them and give them trial hence why Optimus didn't go after those who ran away. IDK why people keep missing Optimus' very obvious point of taking shit by force will just make the public rebuilding worse, remember every miner just realized their life was all a lie, they all are very emotionally vulnerable atm just like Megatron, filled with betrayal and hatred Optimus is trying to prevent the further spread of that path, but hey Megatron stoops in to further fuel the hatred of the public lmao. Optimus cared more about justice and the future of Iacon more than being trapped in the present and revenge like Megs. A more valid take would be to question why Optimus doesn't comment on B-127's non-caring unstable behavior, as it was actually only B-127 out of the autobots who "enjoyed" killing those drones in a childish brutal way. everyone else was doing violence out of necessity hence why Airachnid is also still alive. im' not even gonna argue about the Drones/Vehicons if they are sentient or not. currently it's not confirmed but if they are truly confirmed, then the argument just further goes down the drain
Fun fact: absolutely n o w h e r e was it said that the henchmen were mindless drones without feelings like some commenters are saying. They made sarcastic quips, they ran in fear, they acted surprised. Y’all can’t just make stuff up to cope with this common issue tons of movies suffer from.
Just because an older TF continuity made that choice 15 years ago doesn’t make it a good defense for the inconsistent morals in THIS movie.
For those who don’t know: It’s an issue tons of movies have, because filmmakers usually don’t want to deal with the extra work of writing a story that remains morally consistent (it probably makes creating cool action scenes way more difficult).
And that’s besides the fact that they killed plenty of other bots that weren’t generic soldiers lol so this isn’t even an argument.
Point is, Hollywood needs to stop using this crutch as a lazy plot device.
Nailed it
I don’t know. They don’t say it outright, but they also aren’t named like Airachnid who have personalities/real identities. They come in groups of completely looking identical looking bots, when the movie HAS shown crowds with unique people like the Miners or High Guard. Still, willing to admit it’s not confirmed. Prime’s vehicons all looked the same and weren’t drones
They are Vehicons, and even if they arent fully alive, even the TFP ones had LIMTIED freedoms. They were made via cold constructions which meant they had no spark, they were effectively heartless. It isn't lazy, its on par with what Sentinal would have done. Why make or train soldiers that will question your morals and evil acts? Why would THEY be okay with him handing "their" planet over?
Vehicons exist to be a faceless drone army, the Blokees toyline calls them "Death Stalkers" which just sounds evil. This movie is about breaking the chains of an enslaved underground society, there are such things as KILLING your oppressors and aggressors. It is morally justified. The Vehicons also sucked at combat, they did not really seem competent in any respect. They even are deocrated in TFP canon colors to Starscreams Aerial Unit during the Darkmount section of TFP. [These specific ones are white, black and silver and show up during the Alpha Trion chase scene]
They are decorated in specific colors for specific regions or purposes. The Gold being the elite guard that Sentinal has for his Throne and body guards and then the purple and black for standard guard and infantry.
Theres no reason or evidence to suggest they are alive in any respect that matters. Its the same thing as killing a battle droid. They have limited freedoms but ARE evil. They cant fully change that.
No it's not confirmed so it's not an airtight retort, but they certainly appear mindless as they don't yell in agony, or even appear to feel pain, and only one of them talked and when he did he sounded mindless. The only thing that really makes them appear alive is when those two yellow ones ran from B.
I do feel that this could've been handled better by giving them clearly sentient henchmen, and showing Optimus and the others really try to disarm them and make them not a threat, but I still feel that there's a big difference from killing someone in battle in self defense and killing someone who is essentially begging for mercy and who has clearly lost.
And when did the good guys ever kill people that weren't generic soldiers, what?
i don't remember any of the drones actually talking, but some of them did show emotion similar to TFprime's vehicons. i'll pay attention next time when it comes to streaming services
One thing we can all agree on: The marketing failed this movie so hard, and I really hope that doesn't affect any possible sequels
They usually make it back in toy sales, its not really safe to say until Christmas has passed
"the sky is blue" lol
Paramount won’t see a single cent of the toy sales
Well the steelbook online sold out twice so I'm hopeful
And one guy on twitter did a better job than the marketing team of Paramount's
10:45 For me the no killing was more, "you don't get to play judge jury & executioner because you're angry, Sentinal has wronged you, but he's wronged everyone, we all have a say in his fate & punishment, sure he may be called to death, but that's for Iacon to decide, not one man." I think that's the crux of Orion's message there, he might probably want Sentinal as dead as D-16 does, but they can't just go around killing people they don't like, there must be due process.
couldnt have said it better
i saw it more as they couldn't kill him because there was no reason to, in previous scenes they were getting attacked by drones and running away wasn't the best option so they had to fight back to defend themselves but sentinel in the end was running and couldn't fight back so there was no need to kill him besides personal grudges
this was how i took it too, that and the fact Sentinel was kinda begging for his life, a crowd gathered, public execution of someone regardless of how many people hate the person, is a bit extreme. There are going to be people no matter what, that may be angry, but dont want to actually witness that kind of thing.
Exactly. Pax was seeking justice the whole movie, specifically justice for the miners. So he was of that mind from jump. He saw no Justice in what D wanted to do and also felt like he was losing his friend in the process.
Reminds me of AC3, when Washington told Connor that Charles Lee's punishment must be done properly, otherwise Washington and his army would be no better than the enemy.
In my mind, the whole "Can't kill the bad guy" trope made sense in this scenario for a few reasons
The Death Trackers are like the Vehicons, they aren't fully sentient (or at least that's what it seems like) they're like drones, so that makes sense why killing Sentinel would be different.
Killing in self defense like in the battles is fundamentally different from publicly executing a defenseless Sentinel, a very prominent political leader might I add, that's begging for mercy in front of a crowd.
But I also see why Sentinel should have died, but I see it more as Orion stopping D-16 from losing himself by killing him.
I'm not trying to argue, that's just how I saw it, love the content.
This is good a thought process, Sentinel in all of our eyes should die but that’s where Optimus and Megatron are different, war is messy and awful, there’s no escape that someone is gonna die, but in sentinel case when he hits the center of Iacon, he’s become a disabled and disarmed man, Optimus realize there’s no point in fighting him anymore as not only he’s lost his power metaphorically but physically too, he can’t even stand up or fly, Megatron and how many of us view it Sentinel took everything from US and should die, megatron took the righteous movement or rather was never focused on it all and made it personal, it would’ve never made him feel satisfied and it’s shown literally right after, saying all of his followers must die even tho he had no followers just people who were deceived like megatron
THIS
Plus killing a Prime in front of everyone would also have serious political, religious and social ramifications. Remember what exactly kickstarted WWI?
Yup. Optimus didn't give a sh*t about Sentinel, he didn't even explicitly state that Sentinel should not pay for his crimes with his life, he just didn't want it to be 1) a gruesome public execution in front of Iacon citizens and 2) the point where D gives up his "humanity" by murdering a defenseless pathetic loser.
The whole point of Orion not wanting to kill Sentinel at that moment is just exactly what he said ' rebuilding iacon cannot begin with an execution." Basically how i see it is that orion knows d16 wants to kill him at that moment, but the right choice was to arrest him and be punished accordingly later on, be it death sentence or whatever. Orion sees the implications of killing sentinel right after he got exposed, which is exactly what happens right after where its just chaos. Its more of the consequences of killing sentinel at that moment rather than "oh we cannot kill the main villian even though he deserves it " trope.
The efforts put up by fans to promote this movie should not be downplayed, its been a long time since transformers fans have collectively come together to support the franchise especially for a movie. Just because it wasn't as successful in boosting the box office doesn't mean it did not help at all. And most of the tweets are just personal wishes and projections which can be unrealistic but its okay for people to just have some hope
10:54
I too agree. Optimus Prime's goal was to reform Cybertron's corrupted goverment and the make Sentinel stand trial for his crimes while D16 wanted revolution, summary execution of Sentinel Prime and the downfall of the goverment. Sentinel Prime wouldn't yield until all his efforts to protect is agendas are diminished as such, it was inevitable a war had to happen.
For the whole sentinel execution scene I felt that when orion confronted D it wasn’t that he was against killing sentinel and wanted to kill him in a legal situation, like putting him on trial for execution.
I think people who think Orion was stupid and/or hypocritical for not wanting D-16 to off Sentinel really don't know the difference between killing an enemy in self-defense and *coldly executing* a guy who was *already rendered defenseless and begging* in front of millions of people (which tbf is what Bayverse Prime did so maybe some wires were crossed)
Oh yeah and even D-16 pointed it out himself, he and others like the High Guard used to be fanatically loyal to Sentinel before being aware of the betrayal, and they took it so poorly that they became murderously violent to anything they saw as remotely connected to him (fuckin Soundwave had a lie detector telling him our heroes were on their side and Starscream didn't buy it). You could argue Orion, who probably wants Sentinel dead too, simply doesn't want *D* to be the one to do it.
10:45 EDIT: taking back the mindless drone argument, unless the director confirms it It’s not really worth arguing about, still keeping the next part though
it’s not really about whether or not killing sentinel is bad, it’s about who was behind the trigger.
Orion kept seeing this anger and hatred festering inside D-16, and if he claimed this life, he would cross a path that he could never come back from. That’s what he was really trying to stop.
heck that’s why he got in the way at the climax. it wasn’t about protecting the horrible dictator, it was about the faith that he still had for his best friend, this belief that he would still listen to him.
Edit: Also, looking back at it, I don’t think it’s really out of nowhere. I think the anger and frustration in D-16 had already been festering by the time the movie had started, with how easily he was with threatening Orion with violence and how he used the faith in the system as a way to cope with his unfair spot in life.
So ones that was gone, what’s there for him to cling to? Nothing matters to him anymore by that point. If anything he found freedom in the chaos.
"I'd transform into a shovel, and beat you"
"How about I kill you for waking me up"
And others. He was obviously joking. But his default to violence is, like you said, a huge tell.
I feel like Pax wasn't trying NOT to get Sentinel killed.
He just didnt want his brother to die.
The funny thing about your problem with heroes not killing villains is the Bayverse Optimus is the exact opposite. I rewatched Dark of The Moon and Optimus murders both Megatron and Sentinal without any hesitation or remorse in that movie.
Killing sentinel at that moment was an execution. (Which Optimus also mentions with the same word) It wasn’t during a fight. He was defeated and weak, cowering away. That is the difference between all the other deaths up to that time.
Not once in the movie did Orion object to Sentinel's death. The difference between D16 and Orion was that one wanted Justice, and the other wanted Vengeance. Neither was wrong. Megatron's banishment wasn't for killing Sentinel it was for lashing out at the innocent civilians of Iacon. I think the third act needed another 20min to real sell you that Megatron went too far.
I think Orion's whole point was it would be wrong to kill a defenseless enemy
literally in what way was Sentinel defenseless bro 😭
@@Liiiishhhha at that point in the movie sentinel prime was defenseless
@@Baconchilldophin this is the craziest take I've seen on the internet today. "you bested me in a 1v1 fight so therefore I am now a defenseless victim" bro stfu 🙄
Orions whole point is that you don't get to do what they did, because it makes you no better than them. Killing sentinel is in principle no better than sentinel killing the primes. Yall forget optimus doesn't like murder bc of these live action films? He believes in justice, if he is brought to death by that system then so be it but he can't stand by and let someone be judge jury and executioner, even if what the defendant did was despicable
@@Liiiishhhha He was badly damaged, his feet seemed to be stuck in engine mode since he didn't just stand up, and if you look closely, his wings break off when he hits the ground. He can't run, he can't fight, he can't even stand. I'd call that defenseless.
9:38
In my defence, Sentinel Prime is a character who is able to manipulate his cybertronians into believing every word he said. He was open to admitting his wrongdoings as he wasn't afraid that the real truth could be revealed as long as he had a large following and authority that is until his lies were revealed.
Without mentioning those details, it would be difficult for the audience to understand the villan's intentions and how it can lead to his eventual downfall.
The key thing that ruined the movie, was the marketing. Made it look like just another “kids” movie that just happened to be transformers related. Boy was it more than just a “kids” movie. Watch the movie, the trailers and marketing don’t do this movie justice.
My favorite part has to be when Optimus grabs some guy with his arms and legs and then just splits him himself. Like it’s so creative but brutal at the same time
one of my favourite interpretations of Orion stopping d-16 was that he knew if d-16 continued, he would eventually become something worse, like Megatron, so whilst Orion was still trying to stop D-16 from taking someone's life, it was mainly as he knew that it would permanently change D-16 for the worse
HES BACK HES ALIVE!!!
YESSIR
He’s alive guys! What was your question again, bro?
We needed such a well composed take such as this man. I really REALLY want a trilogy out of this and for transformers marketing in general to take a step up. Like was there ever an Legacy Evolution or United commercial? I haven’t seen it and Google 100 percent knows I eat that all day long
8:04 I will help defend you in court
Regarding killing Sentinel, its worth noting that he was defeated and defenseless while the Troopers/Vehicons were all killed in battle (still weird that they were making jokes about it though). D16 killed an unarmed enemy, making it an execution.
He wasn’t defeated or defenseless, he was losing a fight and started running out of weapons. That’s how a fight works when you’re fighting to the death. You can’t just paint him as a defenseless victim the second he starts to lose. This is insanity.
@@ConfusedCrawDad he lost when he started to beg for his life and tried to pull the "we can rule together" card like every coward does when he can't escape and after D-16 missed his first fusion cannon shot and showed the damage he could do with it.
Unless Sentinel pulls a backhanded attack if say someone turns their back to him, the moral choice is to let the tyrant stand trial, not execute him on the spot.
The way I see it, the Vehicons aren't sentient. They act and move like typical robot soldiers, kinda like Battle Droids from Star Wars. They don't seem to feel pain or anything, such as the one that punched B-127 and got its hand all messed up, it didn't seem to feel pain, it just looked confused for a moment, then went back to attack B.
@@ConfusedCrawDad nobody is painting him as a victim, but he was defenseless.
The point was "you don't get to play judge jury & executioner because you're angry, Sentinal has wronged you, but he's wronged everyone, we all have a say in his fate & punishment, sure he may be called to death, but that's for lacon to decide, not one man."
@@ConfusedCrawDad that and the fact he wasn't "losing", he already lost.
The amount of memes in this vid got me rolling on the ground
There's literally a difference between killing a surrendering, begging enemy who can't fight vs killing in an active warzone when your getting attacked and you have to defend yourself 💀 this is why people are mad about Sentinel's execution in DOTM too.
Obviously Sentinel deserves a death sentence but Im not against Orion's actions too much. Besides you could take this deeper and and say that executing Sentinel right there would literally make D-16's case even worse.
I do find Orion's choice to put himself between Sentinel and D when D was about to shoot a little questionable though. Perhaps Orion expected that D wouldn't shoot once he was on his way.
I find the designs in the movie awesome. I couldn't care less about the faces, when faces like these have been designed for the characters like.. the entirety of the franchise. For example TFP. NO ONE had a problem with their faces, everyone loves those designs! but now it's a problem for TF ONE?
TF ONE's designs are also quite complex and unique despite their more simple shapes which i really enjoy. Optimus Prime's design in this has become my favourite OP design.
That's a lot of yapping to say that i agree and disagree with stuff that you said in this review. (I commented about stuff i disagreed with though coz im smort🗿)
Great video though! Loved the setting of being in the theatre.
Maybe watch the actual scene again? Not ONCE did sentinel “surrender” like people keep pretending. He started losing the fight and immediately resorted to persuading D-16 into leading as a tyrant with him. I’m genuinely concerned you and many others seem to think that qualifies as a surrender. Also, yes sentinel and D-16 were literally in a “war zone” for all intents and purposes. Sentinel had them captured and was torturing D-16 before the tides turned and sentinel started losing the fight. Yall are genuinely just rewriting what happened in the movie I don’t get it
@@ConfusedCrawDad facts!
@@ConfusedCrawDad You might actually be a psychopath. D-16 tackled Sentinel off a building after the fight ended, snapped his wings off and tried to execute him. It wasn't a "fight"
I didn’t know omega supreme was chill like that 🥶
Bro might be one of the boys ✊
Optimus was trying to keep sentinel alive because they can get valuable information from him
The reason Orion tells D-16 to stop, and not kill sentinel is because the situation has changed. They don’t need to kill anymore because the battle is over. Sentinel is defeated and everyone knows his true colors.
I like the Elita voice, I didn’t know it was her until the credits
Its rare when a video on this platform is structured so well i didnt even agree with a few of your points but you conveyed them so well i saw the logic in all of them
One thing I’ve noticed, as a life-long Transformers fan, I’ve seen a lot of this negativity and pessimism in the community the past few years. I saw it with Rise Of The Beasts when it got delayed from Covid, I saw it when Earthspark came out and it was immediately hated on for being a Transformers show aimed for younger audiences, I still occasionally see it with Transformers Reactivate and if it’s coming out, despite the fact that Splash Damage has said that they haven’t cancelled any of their previously announced projects multiple times, and I saw it on full display with this movie. After that first trailer everyone gave up hope on it being good, until the movie proved them wrong. But even then that hopelessness shifted from, “This is going to be terrible” to “Were never getting a sequel” and yet, it was recently announced that Hasbro’s president is in talks with Josh Cooley about continuing the Trilogy.
That being said, I don’t condone lying about Box Office projections to manufacture hope. I just wish that our community would stop being so pessimistic about the franchise’s future. I don’t consider it Toxic Positivity to be hopeful in a Community seemingly made up of people who give up before we’ve even lost.
There's a difference between killing in battle (where it's kill or be killed) and executing an already beaten and helpless foe.
Omega supreme being an unofficial part of every video you make is my new favorite running theme 😂
I think the distinction on killing sentinel is the other bots died in battle whereas megatron was attempting to execute sentinel after he surrendered.
YOU DON’T KNOW HOW LONG I’VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS VIDEO, I’M NOT KIDDING
10:55 I think the idea is that Optimus wanted to put Sentinal up for trial, and Sentinal's army is either made up of drones, or it's justified to kill them for self defense.
In regards to the point where he complains about choosing not to kill Sentinel, despite killing countless of his lackies, I think there is some context that should be considered. When it comes to Sentinel's lackies, it was a series of "kill or be killed" situations. Or even "kill or be captured and eventually be publicly executed." As for the scene where Orion tells D-16 not to kill Sentinel, it's important to remember that Sentinel seems pretty defenseless at that point. Most good depictions of Optimus show him as a trained soldier who knows that sometimes, violence and even killing are often inevitable. But, he would rather avoid those option, if possible. And he especially, doesn't want to execute a defenseless enemy. Sentinel's lackies didn't give them much of a choice. Orion truly proved that he was worthy of being a Prime, leading Cybertron, and bearing the Matrix when he showed that killing an unarmed/defenseless enemy isn't the way to lead by example.
This guy just want to prove psychopathic bayverse optimus was right & that's just it.
The fact that no one has mentioned the "crunchy grape" metaphor tells me that grape quality has dropped significantly.
Love the videos! Thank you for being you!
My personal interpretation is that Pax didn't want D to go down the same route because later, he said, "Don't be like sentinel" to D. But overall optimus doesn't like seeing anyone killed if they can't fight back anymore.
Unless if it's a bay film he would just cut their head off or something.
I get your talk about the problem of the killing in movies. BUT, there is a fundamental difference between killing someone actively attacking you during a war in self-defense and executing a groveling defeated enemy
While I agree that usually, the tone shift between killing henchmen and refusing to kill the big scheming bad is terrible, here, I just always understood it as the clear difference between killing in the heat of battle and executing a (mostly) defenseless enemy who is actively pleading for their life. Which was one of the stronger critiques of Bayformers: starting in Revenge, where Optimus shoots Demolishor point blank when he's no longer a threat.
But yeah, the quipping while killing really is terrible and inexcusable. B-127 even wanting to pursue the death trackers who run away screaming being the worst of it.
Bro your desktop background in that sponsored segment was bugging the absolute shit out of me I thought it was real first but then I realized it was just a picture I’m dead 😭💀
10:18 The message was already sent, the battle is over, so killing Sentinel would be pointless by that point. They've killed lots before that point because their main objective is not yet completed.
HEAVY on the "killing whoever we want" trope used in EVERY action movie this decade!! It HAS to stop. I really appreciate how reasonable you are with your criticisms, you just make sense.
Such a nice compliment man, thanks for sharing that!
The only thing i don't agree with is that the face designs are good and especially airachnid. She's hot, unironically
I can't believe he said "Badassatron" was exhausting... that joke carried the whole movie
No person want anyone to die, not even D-16 at the very beginning. But once someone's perspective is shattered, there is no holding back because there is nothing to lose. On the contrary, Orion Pax wanted no one to die and just have defeats to overcome. Because at the end of the day, they all still sleep to fight life another day, but without rules or boundaries, what is the goal when not all are one?
I remember the last "Badassatron" hitting like "yeah you are" when he got all his battle implements...also, this is the best transformers movie, bar none. Also, the faces are more palatable than the mechanical faces of the Bay films, they have a more natural feel and being living being why wouldn't they have faces? Sure, the flexible part would probably be some sort of nano or army or some unknown material that's really tough and super flexible...who knows. All I know is it was like seeing the 80's cartoon come to life and I dug it.
Also, the majority of bots that were destroyed were vehicons, basically soulless AI combat drones. Outside of Sentinel the only other bots to die in this movie were Alpha Tripn and some of the high guard when Airacnid went game on them. All the others were just animated practice dummies basically. They're sort of clones that don't have the living spark in them but are still somewhat functional.
Optimus and the others killed when they had to, when they were under attack and had no choice. Sentinel was at a disadvantage and was not fighting back, so they didn't want to kill him.
He was absolutely not at a disadvantage lol, he just lost the fight even after starting with the upper hand. He’s not a helpless victim just because he lost a 1v1
@@papermelon his wings were knocked off, and he was seemingly injured further by how he didn't transform his feet back or whip out his hand cannons, though that is admittedly speculation. Still, he was no longer fighting back.
He is also the only character in the film who died who clearly had a conscience and thoughts unlike the drones who appeared mostly mindless apart from the two who ran from B.
So to me, it seems fair to say it's wrong to kill the guy who at this point will gain nothing from fighting back because he has lost.
@@DanielLovesArt your selective reasoning for what separates an “execution” from “justified killing” is abstract and fundamentally flawed. Sentinel got damaged BECAUSE they were fighting to the death and D-16 was winning. That’s how fighting TO THE DEATH works lol. but D-16 is morally obligated to stop suddenly because sentinel prime…asked him to nicely? Because he got hurt? Wtf. This is an insane take.
@@papermelon I understand the arguments against the points used here, I get that, although I think there's a stronger point that can be used/to be made, about why Orion was against killing Sentinel, and he essentially says it in the film itself. I think the point purely just came down to Orion wanting to ensure that them rebuilding cybertron wasn't 'started', with D-16 effectively doing what Sentinel would've done, and publicly executing him. Orion says this himself twice, once when he stops D from shooting Sentinel the first time, "Rebuilding Cybertron cannot begin with an exection, DON'T be like Sentinel." And then again, when he'd bested Megatron after their fight, "We were given the power to change our world, and you chose to destroy it, JUST LIKE Sentinel." In Orion's view, by publicly executing Sentinel, it essentially just meant swapping around one violent dictator, for another. He didn't want to see his best friend become blinded by the same anger and wrath, and end up essentially taking up the same role as Sentinel, being blind to it and believing his way is right. Which is what Megatron believes. It just comes down to the fact that while yes his reasons for wanting to murder Sentinel were justified, there had to have been a line drawn, where things are taken too far. Megatron literally even then says himself afterwards, "Burn it down, all of it" While then blasting at everything around him, and B says, "He's gonna kill everyone." And again afterwards, Megatron emphasises his goals go beyond just killing Sentinel, when he also says, "It's OVER, when every last one of his followers are DEAD" By that point he'd very obviously crossed that line
@@Jlickinstudios1989Yes, because there's a process to everything. You cannot be the judge, jury and executioner for a mistake that both personally wronged you as well as thousand other people. That's what Optimus has always stood for, i.e., justice.
Sentinel should have gotten what he deserved - a death sentence - from a systemic evidential standpoint and not from a coup. The former makes it a judiciary, the latter tyranny.
While I was watching the movie, I felt like the troops the main characters killed were all drones, like in TF prime, so I kinda understood why they didn't care about killing them, but im honestly not sure.
personally i saw the fast pacing actually works for D-16 heel-turn because that way it make sure that D cannot emotionally process his feelings and emotions in a healthy way. followed by Orion's growing concern for his miner buddy as his mental state deteriorates (the particular scene where D's laughing after he transformed for the first time while killing Sentinel mooks brings a bittersweet feeling) but i can see why some people still missed it.
10:30 however I take a huge issue with because I actually thought this is one of the better use of "if you kill him, you will be just like him" scenario
"Rebuilding Iacon cannot begin with an execution"
Orion stopping D was not because he wanted to let Sentinel go scot-free, but because he does not want D to create a symbol that represents the leadership going forward to based on a philosophy of "might is right" and "the wronged will be immediately executed" as Orion knows that history would only see it as a despot taking over another.
Orion wanted justice against sentinel where he is judged by the people of Iacon who he had wronged, not to be executed for one's violent catharsis.
when Orion and the gang of miners alongside the high guard mount a rebellion, the situation does not call for peaceful methods so Orion, Elita, and Bee only kill because at the time that was the only option. but after Sentinel is finally exposed, he had lost his power both physically and politically. At this point the peaceful approach had finally open it's door... only for D to slam it shut so he can pursue his own personal vengeance.
there is a clear difference between killing in the heat of battle and killing a basically unarmed surrendering enemy (dude literally had to crawl at that point).
this symbolically represents that the new government will be based one where if the leader sees you as wrong, there will be violent repercussions without a chance of defending or even considering other punishments. A government where the first leader got that position in the first place was by unnecessary violence isn't a great look is it?
Orion banishing D for betraying him was not because he let him fall or even killing sentinel but because D-16 (now Megatron) decide and to lash out against the citizens of Iacon because he had nowhere else to aim his rage even though they were just as clueless as the miners. Megatron trough killing Sentinel became a symbol of the strong will in the top, in other words, Tyranny.
Sadly, even though the banishment was intended to save Megatron from a harsher punishment, Megatron took that as Optimus upholding the old system, and so the Decepticon faction was borne using Megatronus's face, effectively painting him as not the noble prime that he is. but simply THE FALLEN.
6:38 megaton’s actor became kratos from the og games 😭😭😭
Primus better be voiced by Peter and Unicron voiced by Frank to make up for Megs and Prime, if not, we riot.
TBF with the killing part, they were just mindless drones; not Cybertronians
“Bad-Donkey-Tron”
B-127: It’s actually… ( in Dr Crawl’s Voice) “BADASSATRON”
Badonkatron ⁉️
Sure
One thing about the movie I absolutely adored was the transformations and fight cartography. I’m not sure about the comics but when it comes to onscreen this is the most unique ways transformers ever fought, really puts the “transform” into “Transformers”. Cause for the most part, transformers fights were just giant robots punching or shooting eachother, nothing much special other than they can turn into vehicles to either run away or hide, sometimes gaining access to new weapons or abilities in vehicle mode but nothing much other than that. It wasn’t until recently Transformers media has been exploring the idea of partial transformation, allowing bots to partially transform into their vehicle forms to get a better advantage.
This was beautifully shown in TFOne, during the Iacon 5000 you had the racer bots partially transform to throw Orion and D16 off them but still mostly be in vehicle mode to continue racing, you got the scene when Elita, D, Bee and Orion try to use their t-cogs but fail leading to partial transformation, something which comes back later in the movie when they are fighting such as Megatron transforming his feet to hit Starscream or Optimus transforming to hide his head and dodge a blow from Megs.
My Favourite scene tho? Megs vs Prime. That scene was just brilliant with how it utilised transforming while fighting, Optimus using his smokestacks as a jet punch, but the best part imo was when Prime ripped off Meg’s canon and throws it back at him, which is when MEGS JUST TRANSFORMS TO REATTACH HIS CANON! THAT WAS SO COOL!!!!! Even if unfortunately we don’t get a sequel to this, I really hope we see this style of fighting carries over to future series
THIS MOVIE IS FREAKING AWESOME!!!! Saw this movie twice in theaters and now it’s my new favorite Transformers movie!!!!
On the topic of the murdering henchmen, I'm pretty sure it's implied that they were mindless drones? I may not remember correctly but did they even have a line?
The only line they ever had was reffered to Alpha Trion which was "Time's up, old timer"
I was checking a couple of days ago to see if I had missed an upload. Glad to see another video from you dude!
We were SO lucky nobody did a tiktok or fortnite dance in this movie
probably because the drones probably didn't have sparks, but it would be the film's fault for not explaining that
Okay everyone talking about Megatron and sentinal and the reasoning for why or why not killing him is a good idea but one of the biggest things for me is how Megatron states that he has every intention of razing the city to the ground which Optimus is against. The other thing, when sentinal was on the ground he wasn't fighting back, when an antagonist is killed in the movie they are attempting to harm or kill the main protagonists.
Its nuanced, but i don't necessarily disagree with the point being made. I agree that there are times where the merciful good guy is done poorly because it requires a lot of nuance or well shown points throughout the movie. Yes it could have been done better, but i don't really have an issue with it personally.
I feel like there's some stuff being missed in the big disagreement scene on Sentinel's fate. (I know a few others have already mentioned this, but I feel some of them have also missed some details about it)
Note how Orion doesn't disagree with D-16 when he says Sentinel deserves to die, just when he states that he "needs to do this". At this point, they've absolutely won, all of Iacon knows the truth, and are quickly turning against Sentinel. Sentinel was beaten, he was basically helpless (by no means is he a victim though), he was literally begging for his life by offering co-rulership to D-16.
What I'm trying to get at here, is that what Orion is trying to convey to his friend when he says things like "rebuilding Iacon can't start with an execution" and "don't be like Sentinel" isn't "Killing is wrong... even though we had a kill a bunch of guys to get here," what he means is "the fate of one bot shouldn't be decided by one other alone. Because that's how Sentinel did it" he's saying that they're needs to be a due process, that the fate of their now deposed ruler needs to be decided by ALL of Iacon, not by him or by D-16 alone.
Kids should also learn that crime has an equal punishment. Digital Courthouse did a look at the two villains, Sentinel Prime and Megetron (D-16). It would be mercy for him to have died because his crimes would lead to 7 death penalties, 4 life sentences, and $1,000,000 in damages.
This is not the spooky review I was promised,I feel like I need to lock myself in my cave again for another three days.
Hoping that drops SO soon bro I've been on the edge of my seat
As a parent I wonder about the fuss with swear words. Children don't learn by denying, they learn by actually doing things (wrong) and learning when and when it is not appropriate to use swear words.
10:56 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Ok ok ok listen listen listen. in his defense they were attacked first in that scene. And those iacon guards were trying to capture them so they could get executed so like come on cut him some slack
Here’s a little good fact but apparently there are talks with Josh Cooley for a potential sequel
Not even Michael Bay would force and awkward love story between Optimus and Elita. Instead he opted to have her guts blown out in the Desert fight in ROTF...
I think the "innocent henchmen" were just supposed mindless drones
One thing I disagree with slightly was D-16's quick switch to Megaton and being maniacally insane. He always had that maniacal nature before the truth. Some examples are his remarks to Orion throughout the first act.
"I'd transform into a shovel and beat you."
"What if I kill you for waking me up."
"If we survive this, I'm going to kill you!"
He always had that nature but didn't truly act on it so he could do his best to help Cybertron. But when the truth came out, he had no care anymore. His life was a lie. Only thing he can do is act on his own. Only bot he can count on his him.
Imagine if pax and d-16 VA's changes to their og VA's when they became Optimus and megs
The henchmen are mindless drones like the veicons in prime
Show me literally any scene that told you that lmao
@ look at their designs and the people that made the movie literally said that’s what inspired them
The faces are supposed to add to relatability plus they remind me of Greek statues which gives a certain "War in Olympus" vibe to the overall story, connecting it with human history and mythos. I mean, if Transformers were actually real, they'd probably look like non-Euclidean, terrifying monstrosities that would make Bayverse designs look like your neighbors. For me the issue in this movie was throwing Optimus into the mines with Megatron, as in all other iterations they have very different backgrounds.
I respect the face designs, Josh Cooley said he didn't want any greeblies distracting from the performance of the characters and I think that's totally fair. It also mean that the characters that do have those lines and streaks on their face end up looking older and wiser, and I think that's fantastic.
Yeah I don't agree with your nitpicks, sorry.
Shocker, a TF diehard can’t accept any criticisms. What’s new
@@trayer_bumrDude he just said he doesn't agree. It's more like you can't accept someone being critical of a critique.
@@trayer_bumr all he said was that he doesnt agree 💀 so mad for what
@@Romapolitanhe called them nitpicks when they were very obviously valid criticism even if you don’t agree. So yes, he clearly can’t handle any criticism considering how he’s minimizing them in his comment.
@ConfusedCrawDad Nitpicks are not called nitpicks by how valid they are. It just means making small criticisms of a medium. So again he just disagrees, there is no reason for agression.
A lot of your complaints are just nitpicks and that’s not valid criticism
2:45 ive been hearing those were tears
interesting, i actually was a lot happier with the faces than i thought i would be
I love that you are able to talk about this movie in a constructively critical way. The fandom has been (rightfully) complimenting this movie to hell and back and while Im happy to have a good transformers movie that actually respects the source material; I do think this movie could've been much greater and I think we need to stay critical so that whatever comes next has the chance to be even greater. I wish the story was much deeper and the character work more consistent and thought out. I think even staying in a PG environment you can make a great movie about social inequality and how different people respond to it through the transformers brand.
5:30 omg you got studio series 86 optimums prime 😱
I think TFOne was amazing but the faces were pretty bad and should have been more machine like. Optimus trying to stop D16 from killing sentinel is probably because he knew something was going on with D16and that he was turning into megatron. They are also trying not kill, if they get the chance to not do so, they wont. The henchmen were killed because it was the only way t o get to sentinel and stop him from ruling cybertron and even extending his army but the you did make a good point on directors killing of loads of side characters just because there not the main character or a more significant one.
From they way you worded it, I think the whole raspy voice thing for Elita is more of a personal preference than an actual criticism. Unlike the forced Optimus Prime voice you pointed out, it doesn't seem like Scarlett did a poor job voicing Elita. I myself find that it fits just fine
Finally a new paper melon video 🤌🤌🤌🤌
This is probably my favorite transformer movie lol
Thank you for mentioning the cope the community had with the box office. People need to realize that if America didnt give a lot towards the movie. Then its not gonna do good. Yes I know america really isnt the only place in the world, but thats where most of the appeal is.
About Chris Hemsworth "forced" Optimus Prime voice, while I don't disagree that it does somewhat sound forced, in case anyone missed the memo, Peter Cullen himself was a consultant on Hemsworth's voice performance. At least the man tried, could be worse. I found his performance alright but I'm not a critic so.
I think the reason why Orion didn't try to kill Sentinel is because Sentinel has more effect on changing the belief of Iacon city. Just killing the guards won't affect the peace of the city, but Sentinel will incite the city's citizens to revolt and it will be more dangerous because kill sentinel is also a symbol of the courage to resist, which can incite a revolution more worse, risking further massacre, remember that Sentinel holds the trust of the entire city of Iacon, it has a greater impact on the trust of the city than the guard.
Best Transformers movie we could have hoped for.
The whole point of not executing Sentinel is about the foundation of the new Cybertron should not start with a public execution and bypassing a true fair justice system and trial.
Saying that Brian Tyler made some mediocre music is offensive to his amazing works
The henchmen they were killing were mostly drones. That’s why sentinel was different
Saying this movie was perfect is something I’ll say in my heart but Ik isn’t true
but maybe another reason pax told D not to kill sentinel was because of the things he would do after and the fact D was blinded by rage and we all know what D did after killing sentinel and his choice on how cybertron would go into the future,
and the trackers are based of vehicons which Ik people will say “where did you here that they weren’t sentient??” Just take a look at them, do they look like any other cybertronians? There only with sentinel and they also look like vehicons. I respect your criticisms and opinions and this is my take on things
those trackers or henchmen are drones i believe, they have no emotion and are way more robotic. But I understand what you are saying, kinda like tlou2
Okay in defense of the whole not killing Sentinel thing I feel a lot of people are treating it with too much white and black. You'll notice that Orion said and I am quoting here "Rebuilding Iacon cannot BEGIN with an execution" I feel that rather saying that we can't kill the bad guy at all that rather we can't start off rebuilding and fixing what he broke with it. Instead I think it says that now is not the time to do this we need to rebuild and a proper trial to decide his date which could still have ended in Sentinel's execution or at least life time imprisonment with the cog plucked from his chest and forced to mine for the rest of his life.
Chris Hemsworth could have the cadence of 84' Peter Cullen. Being a Truck Dad, not Murderous Crime
God i feel bad for omega....trying to watch a movie and can only hear paper melon talking about transformers one
10:42 *Most* of the Bots they kill are Vehicons, which don’t have free will and are technically not even alive.
I get where you’re coming from, but this point lacks the full context
they don't have free will because...you decided? it doesn't even imply that once during the movie. either way, like he said plenty of the kills were not vehicons. So I think it's a strange point to argue imo
I don’t know if that’s true, I just looked up vehicons. It sounds like depending on the media like comics or tv shows that Vehicons are alive and sentient. They are just on the bottom of food chain, so they are used to death. Also there is still a living transformer, their death isn’t meaningless.
Absolutely nothing in the movie or any related continuity said they weren't sentient ma boy
@trayer_bumr true, but I’d say it’s safe to assume so since many other (not all) continuities say something similar regarding Vehicons.
@@Liiiishhhha I’m basing that off of previous transformer media. I’m just assuming so because it’s an established part of the lore in some continuities
Absolutely dropped everything when I saw this uploaded!! Dissapointed I'm a day late, but oh well... Another banger, as usual!!
I totally agree with your statement about how weird the marketing was. I am a huge transformers fan as well, and I have been for as long as I can remember... But I did NOT want to go see this movie. I just completely wrote it off as "Oh, looks boring, might not see it," Despite really liking the look of the animation. I didn't even go see it in theatres; I only watched it when my brother dragged me into the living room to watch TFOne on our home television.
Movie was great, but I agree that D16's turn felt a little bit abrupt haha.. Seeing everybody praise it for being incredibly subtle and well-done made me feel like a crazy person. Thank you for validating me on this and calling out his weird journey.
But thank you so much for uploading!! Haha seeing your videos makes me so excited for the passion that still exists in the TH-cam community. Love your positivity and brilliantly subtle , yet powerful editing choices! I loved seeing the tiny transformers hidden around the theatre.
Additionally, I am SUPER curious about what your next video will be! I'm wondering if it has something to do with traveling... There was a segment in the ad-read that mentioned traveling around the world, but that could have been stock-footage for all I know. That previous mega-video about going to every target was one of the greatest pieces of media to ever be created, sooo... I'll turn my notifs on so I'm not late for this next video! I'm hella hyped
Heavily disagree on Sentinel/The Drones getting killed point. the point that other people trying to make is that shit like this happens irl, in war murder is almost necessary in self defense. BUT Leaders/Generals are usually captured and executed in a public trial to slowly show the world that it's OVER and to make sure that killing them is a choice by EVERYONE who was a victim not just one selfish dude who barely gives a shit about others (megatron) , but foot soldiers usually get killed on the spot because that's how war works, they are fodder in a ongoing war where "cause" matters more. THEY CHOSE to follow Sentinel and they are all aware of his shit, so their LIFE is THEIR responsibility not Optimus, trust me if they surrendered then Optimus would gladly spare them and give them trial hence why Optimus didn't go after those who ran away. IDK why people keep missing Optimus' very obvious point of taking shit by force will just make the public rebuilding worse, remember every miner just realized their life was all a lie, they all are very emotionally vulnerable atm just like Megatron, filled with betrayal and hatred Optimus is trying to prevent the further spread of that path, but hey Megatron stoops in to further fuel the hatred of the public lmao. Optimus cared more about justice and the future of Iacon more than being trapped in the present and revenge like Megs.
A more valid take would be to question why Optimus doesn't comment on B-127's non-caring unstable behavior, as it was actually only B-127 out of the autobots who "enjoyed" killing those drones in a childish brutal way. everyone else was doing violence out of necessity hence why Airachnid is also still alive.
im' not even gonna argue about the Drones/Vehicons if they are sentient or not. currently it's not confirmed but if they are truly confirmed, then the argument just further goes down the drain
“You know, killing is kinda wrong.”
-Optimus Prime, 2024
Bayverse Prime laughing after ripping head and spine of Megatron