My biggest issue with this topic (and your take at the end) is that the Big Ten is punishing Michigan based on accusations. They are premature. If the NCAA finds that Michigan was in the wrong, then yes, there should be punishments. That is due process and it's how our legal system and the NCAA have always worked. What is occurring here is "guilty until proven innocent". A few Big Ten teams who fear Michigan have gotten Pettiti to circumvent all the normal processes (and perhaps their own legal reach) by proactively punishing Harbaugh as the figurehead of the program. That is a scary proposition for any university to know you could have your season tanked based merely on public rumors and jealous conference foes. Josh likes analogies. Imagine your boss comes in one day and puts you on unpaid leave because of some rumors from your coworkers. You have no ability to defend yourself. You may or may not be guilty, but you have to go without pay for 30% of your year and your reputation is trashed in front of the entire nation. Are you going to take it, or are you going to leave that company (conference) and go to a place where you can get a fair shake? I think there are a whole bunch of nuances to this story that Josh glances over because he wants to simplify it down to "if they are guilty they should be punished". This really could take an hour to have a good discussion on all the points.
With your analogy though it wouldn’t be unpaid leave, John still getting his money so it would be paid leave. Which I’m pretty sure everyone would be ok with if the rumors were not true
@@chrisbrooks6965 He is still getting his base pay, true. But this suspension could cause him to miss out on many of his bonuses (Big Ten COY, Big Ten Championship, etc). I guess it would be like paid leave but missing out on your year end bonus or sales bonuses.
@@UMfan21 officers get done like this on a daily basis in officer involved shootings, they immediately get put on paid leave until a internal investigation is done.
@@UMfan21 also to the COY bonus, he already missed a game earlier this year due to recruitment violations so I don’t think him missing these games will determine that bonus.
@@UMfan21 sorry for so many responses but I keep needing to add stuff COY bonus is only 50k when he makes 7 million base and so far the suspension is only tegular season so I don’t think it will effect his potential for championship bonus
The conference calls it "decoding" or "sign stealing" based on their interpretation of what a "in person scout" is... since it was NOT defined in this ancient 1994 rule, back where you needed an expensive professional video camera with tape to record. Random friends of Stalions with their iPhone in public places (the stands) are "in person scouts" for Michigan. Team coaches directly colluding with each other in a shared spreadsheet including notes on their expertises in terms of tendencies based on the calls, are NOT "in person scouts" for each other. The rule is obsolete like professors at Harvard being allowed to have cows to graze on the grass on Harvard Yard are.
@@timbrady1176illegal in-person scouting, including infiltrating the sidelines of a separate team to illegally video record an upcoming opponent’s coaching staff. I honestly don’t get why y’all keep playing dumb, as if this whole thing is just a big misunderstanding. Nobody cares enough about Michigan to make all of this up. Y’all cheated and got caught. It’s literally that simple.
@@timbrady1176Michigan didn’t even deny it or defend it in their response to the B1G. They essentially tried to use technicalities to say that the B1G doesn’t have the jurisdiction to punish them at this time. They literally just want to drag this thing out until they can finish the season. If they win a championship, they will claim it until the end of time, regardless of how many wins are vacated. Harbaugh is gone after this season one way or another. They just want to get through this season and then they couldn’t care less about a punishment from the NCAA. They’ve fully bought into the cheating mindset.
Let's say a player gets a DUI, and is suspended the next day. Maybe when the trial comes up he is acquitted, and we all feel the player was unfairly punished. If the player was allowed to play until the trial and was then found guilty, we say the school should have acted more quickly. I think the Big# said we have enough evidence to do this (suspend coach) and if more comes out and there are more penalties by the Big# or the NCAA in 24 months following investigations, so be it. An *** next to a vacated or tainted win isn't fair to the team that was cheated against. If OSU refuses to play them ($$$ will not allow that) I could see the appropriateness of that line in the sand. Flip the script - would M allow OSU to cheat on games 'they didn't need' to cheat to win?
They got punished very minimally so far. For what the B1G can prove. That's what they said in their letter. I'm sure more is coming down the pipe. And why on earth is no one talking about the fact a firm who bust people for gambling fraud is looking at Michigan. This is a firm that works for every major casino or sports book you can think of and then some. They don't go looking for suspected gambling cheaters. They already know they messed with odds they're just at Michigan to prove it. Which they will.
This isn't a DUI though, it's allegedly violating a college football sportmanship rule. Reckless analogy. The Big Ten rules as written lean toward a full and complete investigation being completed by the NCAA so there aren't duplicative or inaccurate penalties. The issue is actually that the Big Ten didn't have the authority to act in the way that they did which will bear itself out Friday at the hearing. A lot of fans are conflating this situation with simple reasoning. No. There are rules regarding penalization and you don't just get to change them because you're upset.
Anyone else think that Tony Petitti is going to look pretty smart when the investigation is completed by the NCAA and the penalties are levied against UM? Someone that bright and accomplished DOES NOT make emotional decisions.
Yeah, dropping the punishment while Harbaugh is on the plane enroute to next game was purely logical and not out of spite and pettiness. Sure. The rumblings for prior two weeks of an imminent suspension rumors and then magically he decides to do it on a Federal Holiday where courts are closed and not inform Harbaugh before leaving Anne Arbor. Sure. No pettiness dick move there. 😂
@@bk6555 Not you, nor I know what's taken place behind the scenes so don't automatically assume because you're spending your time reading pro-Michigan releases that all that information is correct. This is a propaganda war where both sides are feeding us what they want us to hear. I like Harbaugh but my guess is that UM is going to get hammered when everything is said and done.
Kind of foolish dropping that kind of punishment without due process. He basically caved to other schools in the B1G demanding action. His actions were not very smart and actually kind of cowardly.
Appreciate your reasonable take on the Michigan situation. But I'd be surprised if the storm was indeed winding down. The B1G may not be actively pursuing anything further at the moment, but the NCAA’s investigation is ongoing, and there are some big questions that have yet to be answered. Who financed the $15K operation? Who all in the program knew about it, especially the coordinators? It seems unlikely that Conor Stalions operated completely on his own for three seasons without anyone else inside the team knowing.
Ncaa already confirmed no connection to Jim from their investigation. You can hope as a rival fan, but Josh is right: this was a lot to do about nothing.
@@lukedlv615I didn't say anything about a connection to Harbaugh. At this point, we don't know if he knew anything (even though ignorance isn't a good look for him in this situation, as Pate pointed out). If Stalions was busted for doing what he did even for just a few games, I'd be more inclined to believe he was a lone wolf. But he conducted an extensive operation (mostly unnecessary, btw) for 3.5 seasons to the tune of around 40 games. I'm not saying I want there to be a further punishment so much as I don’t see how Harbaugh's suspension could be the end of this and not the beginning or middle. Michigan fans understandably hated the timing of it, but from the B1G's perspective, with only three regular season games left, they felt it was right to mete out a punishment this season because the scheme was already evident and proven. It didn't help that Michigan hasn't denied that it occurred or, as the letter stated, admitted to not having reviewed the evidence as of Thursday, November 9th. And also that Stalions resigned after refusing to cooperate with the investigation. I want to see Michigan compete in the playoff, as I think they're one of the top teams. But if I were a Michigan fan, I'd just be glad the ban didn't extend into the postseason -- at least for now.
@@charlestaylor4342 Um, but $15K is a noticeable amount of money for a low-level staffer like Stalions. The fact that he spent thousands and not hundreds to do this is another red flag, especially because reports have made it sound like $15K was a budget threshold.
Given Josh’s impeccable understanding of the alien language, if we were ever invaded by aliens he’d be the one I want communicating and negotiating with them 😂
I mean, if they didn't already have a stack of evidence that they said they can prove and TCUN can't counter, that'd be a legitimate response. As is, that's just moronic. It's hilarious all the people (including Mr. Pate) saying wait till the investigation is done, but for the B1G, it is done. They already know what they did and can prove it. That's all you need regardless of people trying to delay things.@@spackdog1045
There is a difference between someone being suspended during a criminal investigation of an act committed by the individual, and someone being suspended during a NCAA rule book violation investigation of an act committed by someone else. Yea, and what @timbrady1176 said
Before I finish watching the vlog, I have to comment about your statement that "punishment was handed down". That sounds like you think this is the ONLY repercussions for that team. The suspensions is not the final punishment that will be levied at the end of all this. The suspension is in reaction to the situation, and the fact that this serious, severe and unprecedented. The B1G could not wait until the end of the season to do something. There will be more punishment that is involved, at the end of all of this.
Josh, I know you don't care about what advantage sign stealing gives a team, but Michigan fans do care BECAUSE we've seen multiple national media members say that Michigan specifically won the last two years because of sign stealing. Those people, obviously, can't show evidence for that. But they're willing to put a number on it yet can't show their work. My advice for you is to at least seem impartial with that sort of stuff. Don't act like Michigan fans are trumping up some fake accusations when they aren't. The push back is for idiots like Bruce Feldman who ran around saying he quoted a coach about how sign stealing can swing a game 21 points in your favor. Okay? Then show how that's the case. If you make a qualifiable argument, you HAVE to show your work otherwise you shouldn't be taken seriously. Feldman should know better than to run with a quote that can't be substantiated. That's just being a good journalist.
Has UM denied any official allegations? Not that I'm aware of. The accusations they threw at other schools were summarily dismissed as without merit. So here's what we know: At minimum, Michigan benefited from Connor Stalions' work, which all parties stipulate was against the rules. What we don't know: How it was financed and who knew about it. In other words, it can only get worse for Michigan, not better. Did the Big Ten handle it flawlessly? Maybe not. But any effort to paint Michigan as the victim, or as some type of well-oiled machine that soldiers on in the face of persecution is ridiculous. Someone in their organization broke the rules and the program benefited from it. Since you can't punish the group, the leader must be the scapegoat. This isn't complicated.
I'd care more if the rule wasn't ridiculous. A fan can video a team A's sideline during a game, send it to Team B. Team B can use the information, and it's not a violation. Ohio cand send Michigan's offensive plays and corresponding signs and Rutgers can send Michigan's defensive signs to Purdue before the B1G championship and it's not a violation. Connor Stalions asks a couple of buddies and, in some instances his momto go to a game and video sidelines and it's a violation. News flash, all 3 scenarios have happened and it's all advanced scouting!!!!
“Michigan handled it better?” I think an appropriate response by UofM would have been to put Harbaugh on an indefinite leave until this plays out. Also, other coaches have been fired for a lot less. Sorry, but I don’t think UofM is handling this very well. They are acting like they are the victims in this travesty.
Since first, Harbaugh immediately denied any knowledge of the operation, then Stalions said that Harbaugh knew nothing about the operation, and finally the B1G and NCAA said that Harbaugh knew nothing about the operation, why would it be appropriate to suspend him until the full investigation is completed?
I'm not sure how anyone could think Michigan's response to this has been good if you read the letter from Pettiti. They have been actively trying to stonewall anything the B1G does because they know they can get through this season before anything real happens to them because the NCAA is completely incompetent and they take forever to do anything. There is clearly an abundance of evidence already, that evidence was shared with the university and with the conference, and it makes sense to take some sort of action now when you know for a fact that this season is being tainted by illegal (in sports terms) actions. What doesn't make sense is the B1G saying they don't yet know for a fact that Harbaugh had knowledge of it, but suspend him anyway while not touching the OC and DC who we absolutely do know were using Stalions' information during games and that the information was collected illegally. Now, if I'm a Michigan fan, I'm happy as hell that it is Harbaugh that can't be on the sideline instead of Minter and Moore because I think that would be catastrophic for them during the game. This whole thing is weird, but the mental gymnastics Michigan and their fans are performing to paint themselves as the victims here without even attempting to deny that they cheated is just surreal. I'd be more ok with it if they were just honest. Just say "please let us continue this season to try to win a title that we know you are going to later vacate anyway because we just want to experience it".
Well, if what I hear is true I understand why they would fight/leave BIG. if the information was accessed illegally through Stallions hard drive which I been hearing (be it an inside job or from an OSU investigation) I can see why they are pissed. Maybe everything they did was pure cheating, but if UM went to Patetiti and showed them yes, we cheated but information was gathered illegally and here is proof plus we are not the only one doing the "unsafe advanced scouting" as OSU, Rutgers, and Purdue did this against us last year pure this source. Yet you still get suspended on a national holiday that you can't petition, with Patetiti stating player safety with the advanced scouting. So UM players safety is not important for the advanced scouting provided to Purdue via Rutgers and OSU, or are they getting suspended too or at the very least investigated? I do Suspect UM has threatened to leave the BIG or Patetiti is to be fired, being the way UM feels this has been handled. UM could very well be in the wrong, but so could Patetiti and his handling causing a contract breach which would allow for a loop hole for UM to leave, and if they do what does the new 4 teams do? Join UM, ND and start their own conference, go Independent? With new playoffs coming you don't need a conference anymore IMO😊
He cheated he should be punished. You can’t tell me he didn’t know, there’s literally video of Stallions talking to DC, OC and Harbaugh on the side line.
This means nothing. Stalions was talking to the coaches during the game because of his duties as the (perfectly legal) designated in-game sign stealer.
Let's not pretend Jimmy didn't have enough against him to earn this suspension. In fact he should get some now and later. Michigan looked much tamer actually playing someone didn't they?
1. No, Michigan showed everyone they can show their own signs (run repeatedly) and did not get stopped by the best run defense. No they did not look tame. 2. You’re a fan. What’s your team?
you are very correct. i have followed this situation for the past few weeks intently and followed 1 or 2 people that focus specificlyon michigan and ahve extermely good information and they have been saying michigan has a lot of things on the table. and that it is not out of the question to leave the B10
Anyone that says that has no clue what they're talking about. TCUN makes 10x more money from research and other University affiliations that they'd lose if they left the B1G. If I had the numbers I'd link them for you, but it's actually quite a bit more than 10x, I'm just using that number as a SUPER conservative. Absolutely zero chance they give up all that money because they're butt hurt about this.
Sure they could leave the B1G. Ignoring that what they did violated NCAA rules and expecting zero punishment for it, leaving because they messed up is pretty dumb. Michigan is not the victim here no matter how they try to spin it. If you drive drunk it's hardly a defense to say other people do it when they have you dead to rights.
@@Alexinytown hopped on here to say the same thing. Leaving because you got caught?! Stupid. Also... Michigan's best PR is the Ohio State rivalry. Leaving is incredibly short-sighted.
@@Alexinytownit is a level 3 violation. You know, the type that comes with small fines and some training classes. The guy who broke the rules is already gone. advanced scouting is legal Sign stealing is legal The issue is alleged in person scouting. And seeing as how OSU, Purdue, Illinois and Rutgers all had and shared Michigan’s signs they claimed were gained “legally”. So where is the competitive advantage? So spare me the cheating crap. End result is the same. Signs are known by the opponent. We are talking about an alleged violation of a rule put in place to even out resource allocation between large and small schools. Aka, so smaller schools save money.
I understand ignoring competitive advantage when determining guilt. Either the rule was broken or it wasn't, However, it should be part of deciding punishment. If after the investigation is completed and guilt is determined the punishment should fit the crime. That's when we should be discussing competitive advantage gained.
He literally said "How do you even prove that?" and he is right. The NCAA already set precedent with dealing out punishment with this low level violation, a 1/2 game suspension for 2016 Baylor. However, the people that Stallion sent are 3rd party or hell could have been private citizens actually given tickets to attend for funsies. How does the NCAA even find these people? AND that 3rd party isn't considered a violation via the rule laid out..... What are we even doing here? 😂
@@bk6555 I don't disagree with you. I think the NCAA has to prove Stalions actions not only occurred, but also that those actions were against the rule. How did the NCAA determine that punishment for Baylor? Was their violation "in person scouting"?
@@davidbartlett6746 All I know is that when rulings are issued by entities or whatnot, it is most definitely used as a jumping point for future issues and that the NCAA has to be fair themselves in this regard, otherwise the lawyers can take them to court for litigation. The Big10 ruling is extremely odd because you can literally read the bylaw that says the Comissioner cannot go more than 2 game suspension unless having approval by others. That is asinine to have to go above and beyond the normal scope over an issue that hasn't been investigated and completed by the NCAA yet. It is EXTREMELY odd and unusual. The Big10 HAS TO answer that ruling and how they got to it.
@@bk6555 BIG can go more than 2 games with the board's approval (I can't remember the actual name of the board). They received that approval. Bottom line though is the BIG10 should have let the process continue, e.g. complete investigation, before punishment.
@@bk6555 I just looked up the Baylor in person scouting case. The school self-imposed a half game suspension on an assistant coach who personally attended and scouted a future opponent's game. Even though it sounds like it was only one game, it is a much clearer violation (the COACH personally did the in person scouting), and the NCAA did not impose any further punishment. Sounds like if Harbaugh doesn't get a TRO, and serves the suspension any further punishment wouldn't follow precedent and would be unfair.
Only Michigan could have fans and the players talk about Harbaugh like he’s either been killed or sentenced to the chair by dawn. Such melodramatics from the Midwest crowd.
What a weird cult. Interim coach out there crying like Harbaugh had a damn heart attack on the field. These jackasses get caught cheating and act like they’re the victim? They can all go f themselves.
Almost every single profession in America if a person is under investigation, they are suspended pending the result of the investigation, not after the investigation during the investigation. Every police officer does not get to work while they’re under investigation of a shooting it is not odd that he is suspended during the investigation, and just like a police officer, if found not guilty of the investigation, he’s good to go
Innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt is the way its supposed to be unfortunately Americans like to pick and choose in which they use the constitution so it basically means nothing anyway lol
@@dangerousdylan6262 this isn’t a legal issue so all that and all due process is irrelevant. If that’s the case why was he suspended for the first 3 games?? That investigation is still ongoing…. So what’s different about this????
@@Shibdefend If "isn't a legal issue" then why did you bring a legal issue into it; police shooting. The investigation of a police shooting is to determine if it is a "legal" shoot. Additionally, Harbaugh's suspension according to the BIG is a punishment. Unlike, an officer's suspension (I think they actually call it, administrative leave) is not a punitive it is procedural.
@@Shibdefend No need for insults, you made an argument that I addressed. That punishment seems a little extreme considering that Baylor had an assistant coach personally attend a future opponent's game, and self-imposed a HALF game suspension. The NCAA imposed no further punishment.
I think it’s safe to say Michigan will have other programs getting looked into in the near future especially now that the big ten acted the way they did prematurely.
You're comments still fall short of the fact that "wrong" hasn't been proven yet. Wonder why that is if it's so obvious. Well obvious to folks full of hate anyway. The only thing proven is Connor buying tickets for others to attend future opponents' games. It's not yet determined who (or at least not yet made public knowledge), those people were (members of staff or just random friends). Nor has it yet been proven or made public as to why or what came of it. If it was random friends and not staff, then it wasn't breaking any rules specifically. It would have been an attempt to get through a loophole in the rules which schools do all the time. No different from OSU and Rutgers giving all of Michigan's plays to Purdue last year. So many questions that still needs to be answered before coming to "factual conclusions". All Michigan wants is due process which is being denied. Any fan or staff member of any other school would say the same thing. If wrong was done, then fair justice be served. No one is saying otherwise. But note I said "Fair" justice.
Josh, I wonder if Oregan, Washington, Alabama, Ga, Fla.State. Miami, Clemson, just how they would accept being punished without due process? one man and a whole conference played judge, jury, and executioner. while the investigation is still active, and on going..
This isn't over for Michigan yet as the Big Ten and the NCAA aren't done yet. They have also not divulged all their information they have either, though the NCAA is about an inept an organization as I have ever seen so who know is they will still be around by the time they finish their investigation. If Michigan leaves, that would be completely ridiculous. They know they broke rules. Even with that, only their coach got a small punishment (2012 Ohio State team couldn't play for the National Championship despite being undefeated). I think they get to the Playoffs and matchups will determine their success and this whole thing will fall by the wayside like every other scandal that hit these programs.
@@timbrady1176 Bylaw 11.6.1 Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited and Michigan didn't meet the exceptions.
@@timbrady1176 , I get that is it so hard to accept when the team you support has been accused of cheating. I dealt with it myself at my ACC alma mater. Being obtuse about it will not help the situation.
@@sheridanclan6 And you making accusations without any proof is about as obtuse as you can get. If you cant accurately answer the questions, then that is a you problem.
I was a Michigan fan growing up from afar til I moved down state and got a dose of their fans and media. They think the rest of Big Ten is just cannon fodder.
You were never a fan lol. You are a troll with no life who has nothing better to do than to comment on a teams video that you don't support or like. But yet you can't get enough of their content. Lol
I have a hard time believing you've had all these conversations with various people. You're missing so many facets and aspects of this that someone would have had to of brought up by now and they aren't things you could ignore and would definitely affect some of your statements. You actually sound like you've read a few cliff notes and went from there.
What’s the different between watching film on a team ,, this is a jok and where will it stop 🛑 maybe they shouldn’t use the same Picture all season to call a play 😂 Washington DC politics in football.
It’s not only the fact they may have beat teams they shouldn’t have but also who did they keep out of any championship playoffs were cheated by Michigans cheating. How many years?
Exactly why they waited this late to do it to make sure they get their little slap on the risk this season since Jim Harbaugh will be dead of old age before those turtles at the NCAA finishes their investigation and decide a punishment
@@lylemoore3827 Playing a top 10 team for the first time this season on the road without your head coach on the sideline is hardly a slap on the wrist.
How did the organization handle anything well?? By not letting Harbaugh coach?? I dont think that was their decision. The TEAM beat Penn State because theyre a better team. Also, whats the point in banning a coach from the sideline during the game? Honestly, most coaching comes during the week and in the preseason. There might be a couple of times a game when the coach's decision matters. Gameplan to me is way more important. Just my opinions.
They (Michigan) won on the road against a top 10 team without their head coach. I'll bet if Nick Saban weren't on the sidelines Alabama wouldn't be the same team.
That's what I've been saying. The coordinators really run the show on game day anyway. They haven't really been punished. This was just a little red meat to calm the crowd. There's more coming.
@@Al-Rudigorso you're into punishing people multiple times for the same crime or something? Like "double jeopardy"? Seriously, the Big Ten shot their shot and any further punishment from them for the same reason would be absolutely absurd.
One likely outcome of UM's anger is Petitti goes or, at the very least, UM moves to change its money sharing agreement with thr Big10 to no longer doing "equal sharing".
@@jasonodonnell5177 Considering there's rumblings that the Fox Sports president is pissed at Petiti for the way this was handled, I'd be very careful saying none of that will happen.
Sure, maybe we won't find out too much more about what Michigan did (though it's possible that we still might), but the NCAA investigation and penalties are still coming. What are they going to do, walk away from their NCAA affiliation too? It's so pathetic. They broke the rules knowing full-well what would happen if they were caught, and now they think they're the victims somehow. They could never admit it, but I hope at least a few people associated with that program realize just how embarrassing this all is.
Josh, if you think the B1G’s response was a joke, then what would you have them do instead? The other teams in the conference unanimously agreed that the Michigan players should NOT be punished. If they went the other way and just issued a fine, the narrative would be that the B1G Commissioner is incompetent and there would be chaos right now.
Are you referring to the criminal assault of Michigan players by MSU players swinging helmets that was captured on video last year? No comparison at all. Any consequences for illegal sign stealing activities should come after the NCAA investigation is complete.
This whole thing is far from over IMO.. I'm still dumbfounded by how some media has yet to grasp the severity of this situation and have yet to connect the dots.. this whole situation is insanity in real time.. I think it'll get super ugly by the time the dust settles.. Michigan has become a joke..
@@timbrady1176 are you fucking kidding me? Even if Harbaugh didn’t know, that’s irrelevant. Stallions’ actions directly contributed to Michigan benefitting on the field. They knew the plays ahead of time because of what he did. You cannot be that obtuse.
Jim can stomp and scream all he wants when the NCAA vacates three years worth of wins it will right his wrongs.Good news is you get to keep the losses to Georgia and TCU on your record.0-1,0-1,0 and whatever happens the rest of this year and you win three Asterisks for 2021,2022,2023.
If Michigan wants to leave the Big 10 in a temper tantrum because they got punished for cheating, they should be shown the door. The Big 10 just got a lot bigger and Michigan is suddenly a much smaller fish.
So when are you going to admit you were dead wrong about Penn State beating Michigan?? And they did it w/o the coach and ran over there top ranked defense...
I just have a real hard time with wishy washy takes like this. Cheating is an integrity/character issue. A principle. It’s binary - right vs wrong. If you don’t agree then that’s the problem. If you agree that: 1) cheating happened, 2) it was done by Michigan and it’s irrelevant whether JH knew bc he “should have” and 3) it’s irrelevant whether you think it was an advantage or not - and Josh agrees with all 3, then Michigan* has no “side” left here. Their opinion and feelings absolutely do not matter. And there’s no reason to act like “both sides” have some good points here. The cheaters are wrong and there’s no reason to give quarter to their weak ass complaints. I bet memaw agrees…
Edit: it’s even more true when the guilty party is indignant and not remorseful. Josh knows better than this. No one is obligated to give equal treatment to the cheater who doesn’t even show remorse….
I think part of the issue here is that you mentioned cheating as an "integrity/character" issue, which is true, but then you mentioned the likelihood that Harbaugh didn't know. Of course, the program should have known, but there's nothing to suggest they did, and the staffer even came out to mention that he hid everything from the program. As a result, it's really not an "integrity/character" issue outside of one low-level employee but rather a "negligence" issue within the program. As a result, how much remorse can you really show when you don't even know what's going on? You can be upset at yourself that you didn't know, and accept the consequences, which the program very much reiterated that they would do in their letter to the Big Ten. But to apply the label "cheater who shows no remorse" to that coach/program that knew nothing is pretty unfair, especially without any due process of investigation before punishment. And that's the main issue that we have.
@@bearnuckles4657 Well said. It’s amazing that so many rivals are frothing at the mouth for some kind of consequences before ALL the facts are out and the full investigation is COMPLETED. Are they just afraid of facing Michigan on the field this year, when all teams will have had ample time to mitigate any advantage provided by any improper activity?
@@arubial1229a low level staffer with some crazy manifesto was caught ..did Harbaugh know ?? Let the investigation play out . Due process right ? . Yea Harbaugh may have been doing 90 when everyone else was doing 85 .... Much ado about nothing . It's a bullshit rule that needs to change anyway .
Michigan is one of the most beloved and hated programs in college football. That's a recipe for going independent. If anything they should jump ship out of the weak ass Big Ten
Hey Josh - since you're so convinced Michigan "did something wrong" - when can we expect your outrage over Rutgers and Ohio stealing signs/advanced scouting to give Purdue Michigan's signs for the Big10 title game? Or are you going to go with "well....that's always been done so it doesn't count" defense? Michigan is being charged with advanced scouting - no different than that what Ohio and Rutgers did. In fact - its worse - as they shared that info with another team - in other words conspiring against Michigan thus violating the now "coveted" Sportsmanship rule in the Bunk10. Looking forward to your outrage over this - but I won't hold my breath.
@@richarddexter7641 No, your head is buried up Paul Finebaums and other talking heads arsses w/o looking at the facts. Pearl Clutching to the nth degree. DA SIGNS!! 124-28 SINCE DA SIGNS.
Is there due process in the BigTen? Doesn't seem like it. Suspending Harbaugh on a Friday, federal holiday, while he is in the air traveling, seems like a punk thing to do to guarantee that the Big Ten do something for the other coaches in the league. The coaches were the ones pushing for this to derail Michigan's chances to win another Big Ten Championship even as they secretly scout all the other teams and pull the same shenanigans. This was an attempt to affect the outcome of the PSU game for Michigan and it blew up in their face. More than likely, Ryan Day is leading this effort as he is literally facing the end of his job if he loses a 3rd straight to Michigan and Harbaugh. But this is going to backfire, because should Michigan defeat OSU and Day without Harbaugh this calls into question even more Day's ability to win this big game. More than likely he's gone and OSU is in the wilderness for five years. The investigation is ongoing, let it play out however it is going to play out, but if I were Ryan Day I would want to see Harbaugh on that sideline in two weeks, because if OSU beats Michigan, they will have beaten Harbaugh too and Day will keep his million dollar job. But if they lose without Harbaugh being there, then they lost to a team with a stand-in assistant coach exposing what a lousy coaching job Day is doing and he gets fired. Mistake.
@@TheGolferguy71Not as dumb as you guys getting your panties in a wad with a sandful vagina over a low level infraction allegation in which no evidence that Stallion was at said "scouted" games. Not even the CMU allegations were verified. 😂
Go Blue! BET! The entire Michigan community is behind Harbaugh, Ono, and our boys on the field. The way Petitte and the Big Ten handled this situation was and is currently so disappointing. Good job Josh
@@JoshPateCFB only Michigan walmart wolverines think Michigan should be allowed to cheat and get away with it. Michigan will have the last 3 years of wins removed from the record and they shouldn’t be allowed to play in the post season and take the opportunity from a team that played fairly. As for Jim’s suspension? Irrelevant minor punishment they was defined by the rules Michigan agreed to and helped author. Defending them is clownish and absurd. Claiming they shouldn’t be punished until they ruin the post season again is absurd. There is no two sides to this issue. There is everyone in the world who thinks cheating is wrong and then there are the Michigan Walmart wolverines who think their school didn’t cheat and Also is allowed to cheat because it didn’t make a big difference and they would have won anyway. Reminder that there are 13 other schools with players who won’t go the NFL and fans want to compete in a fair game and have a fair shot at winning. For that reason I’m out too. Go shart in the Walmart and cheer on your version of the ‘sport’ where Michigan gets to lie and cheat and cover up at every aspect of the game and you pretend it’s anything but wwe BS. Oh wait you are just pandering to a large fanbase for a big brand to get views. Sad and pathetic.
Sorry I'm to the point NONE of the coordinators or head coach should be allowed to coach the rest of the season, along with MI banned from the Big 10 title game And MI pays the Big 10 for all loss revenue
You must be another frustrated Buckeye fan. Everyone has had plenty of time to change their sign system since before Michigan played Michigan State. OSU even said that they change up their signs before last year‘s game. Didn’t make a difference. Come to Ann Arbor and take your whuppin on 11/25.
@@PonderingOne nope not an OSU fan of any way shape or form. I'm just done with a program that cheats instead of trusting a roster of great talent. But Jim is like his dad, cheat at all cost
@@ChrisTurnerblindprech This is the internet, so any 🤡 can allege anything without a shred of truth. No need to read between the lines here: the 🤡 is YOU.
Run over penn st , haha a joke like Michigan football....they'd having a losing record in the SEC and wouldn't be able to score on bama or UGA.. pathetic they in the top 5
The only difference between the Big10 and SEC is geography. You SEC fans remind me of Bobby Miles dad from that football movie, just blind to anything outside of your perception of the world.
My biggest issue with this topic (and your take at the end) is that the Big Ten is punishing Michigan based on accusations. They are premature. If the NCAA finds that Michigan was in the wrong, then yes, there should be punishments. That is due process and it's how our legal system and the NCAA have always worked. What is occurring here is "guilty until proven innocent". A few Big Ten teams who fear Michigan have gotten Pettiti to circumvent all the normal processes (and perhaps their own legal reach) by proactively punishing Harbaugh as the figurehead of the program. That is a scary proposition for any university to know you could have your season tanked based merely on public rumors and jealous conference foes.
Josh likes analogies. Imagine your boss comes in one day and puts you on unpaid leave because of some rumors from your coworkers. You have no ability to defend yourself. You may or may not be guilty, but you have to go without pay for 30% of your year and your reputation is trashed in front of the entire nation. Are you going to take it, or are you going to leave that company (conference) and go to a place where you can get a fair shake?
I think there are a whole bunch of nuances to this story that Josh glances over because he wants to simplify it down to "if they are guilty they should be punished". This really could take an hour to have a good discussion on all the points.
With your analogy though it wouldn’t be unpaid leave, John still getting his money so it would be paid leave. Which I’m pretty sure everyone would be ok with if the rumors were not true
@@chrisbrooks6965 He is still getting his base pay, true. But this suspension could cause him to miss out on many of his bonuses (Big Ten COY, Big Ten Championship, etc). I guess it would be like paid leave but missing out on your year end bonus or sales bonuses.
@@UMfan21 officers get done like this on a daily basis in officer involved shootings, they immediately get put on paid leave until a internal investigation is done.
@@UMfan21 also to the COY bonus, he already missed a game earlier this year due to recruitment violations so I don’t think him missing these games will determine that bonus.
@@UMfan21 sorry for so many responses but I keep needing to add stuff COY bonus is only 50k when he makes 7 million base and so far the suspension is only tegular season so I don’t think it will effect his potential for championship bonus
I will always love the noise you make for the alien talking 😂
"I'm always happy, like anyone should be, to see anybody who cheats the system get caught and get out of the game," Desmond Howard 2011
The conference calls it "decoding" or "sign stealing" based on their interpretation of what a "in person scout" is... since it was NOT defined in this ancient 1994 rule, back where you needed an expensive professional video camera with tape to record.
Random friends of Stalions with their iPhone in public places (the stands) are "in person scouts" for Michigan.
Team coaches directly colluding with each other in a shared spreadsheet including notes on their expertises in terms of tendencies based on the calls, are NOT "in person scouts" for each other.
The rule is obsolete like professors at Harvard being allowed to have cows to graze on the grass on Harvard Yard are.
Thats good. What rule did michigan break?
@@timbrady1176illegal in-person scouting, including infiltrating the sidelines of a separate team to illegally video record an upcoming opponent’s coaching staff. I honestly don’t get why y’all keep playing dumb, as if this whole thing is just a big misunderstanding. Nobody cares enough about Michigan to make all of this up. Y’all cheated and got caught. It’s literally that simple.
@@timbrady1176Michigan didn’t even deny it or defend it in their response to the B1G. They essentially tried to use technicalities to say that the B1G doesn’t have the jurisdiction to punish them at this time. They literally just want to drag this thing out until they can finish the season. If they win a championship, they will claim it until the end of time, regardless of how many wins are vacated. Harbaugh is gone after this season one way or another. They just want to get through this season and then they couldn’t care less about a punishment from the NCAA. They’ve fully bought into the cheating mindset.
@@timbrady1176 the NCAA will have a full report for you to enjoy!
Let's say a player gets a DUI, and is suspended the next day. Maybe when the trial comes up he is acquitted, and we all feel the player was unfairly punished. If the player was allowed to play until the trial and was then found guilty, we say the school should have acted more quickly. I think the Big# said we have enough evidence to do this (suspend coach) and if more comes out and there are more penalties by the Big# or the NCAA in 24 months following investigations, so be it. An *** next to a vacated or tainted win isn't fair to the team that was cheated against. If OSU refuses to play them ($$$ will not allow that) I could see the appropriateness of that line in the sand. Flip the script - would M allow OSU to cheat on games 'they didn't need' to cheat to win?
They got punished very minimally so far. For what the B1G can prove. That's what they said in their letter. I'm sure more is coming down the pipe.
And why on earth is no one talking about the fact a firm who bust people for gambling fraud is looking at Michigan. This is a firm that works for every major casino or sports book you can think of and then some. They don't go looking for suspected gambling cheaters. They already know they messed with odds they're just at Michigan to prove it. Which they will.
This isn't a DUI though, it's allegedly violating a college football sportmanship rule. Reckless analogy.
The Big Ten rules as written lean toward a full and complete investigation being completed by the NCAA so there aren't duplicative or inaccurate penalties. The issue is actually that the Big Ten didn't have the authority to act in the way that they did which will bear itself out Friday at the hearing. A lot of fans are conflating this situation with simple reasoning. No. There are rules regarding penalization and you don't just get to change them because you're upset.
Anyone else think that Tony Petitti is going to look pretty smart when the investigation is completed by the NCAA and the penalties are levied against UM? Someone that bright and accomplished DOES NOT make emotional decisions.
Yeah, dropping the punishment while Harbaugh is on the plane enroute to next game was purely logical and not out of spite and pettiness. Sure. The rumblings for prior two weeks of an imminent suspension rumors and then magically he decides to do it on a Federal Holiday where courts are closed and not inform Harbaugh before leaving Anne Arbor. Sure. No pettiness dick move there. 😂
The Big Ten did its own investigation. They dont need to rely on the NCAA. Michigan is obfuscating and can @#$ off
@@bk6555don’t have people in your program that put you in these situations and it’s a non issue.
@@bk6555 Not you, nor I know what's taken place behind the scenes so don't automatically assume because you're spending your time reading pro-Michigan releases that all that information is correct. This is a propaganda war where both sides are feeding us what they want us to hear. I like Harbaugh but my guess is that UM is going to get hammered when everything is said and done.
Kind of foolish dropping that kind of punishment without due process. He basically caved to other schools in the B1G demanding action. His actions were not very smart and actually kind of cowardly.
Appreciate your reasonable take on the Michigan situation. But I'd be surprised if the storm was indeed winding down. The B1G may not be actively pursuing anything further at the moment, but the NCAA’s investigation is ongoing, and there are some big questions that have yet to be answered. Who financed the $15K operation? Who all in the program knew about it, especially the coordinators? It seems unlikely that Conor Stalions operated completely on his own for three seasons without anyone else inside the team knowing.
Ncaa already confirmed no connection to Jim from their investigation. You can hope as a rival fan, but Josh is right: this was a lot to do about nothing.
@@lukedlv615I didn't say anything about a connection to Harbaugh. At this point, we don't know if he knew anything (even though ignorance isn't a good look for him in this situation, as Pate pointed out).
If Stalions was busted for doing what he did even for just a few games, I'd be more inclined to believe he was a lone wolf. But he conducted an extensive operation (mostly unnecessary, btw) for 3.5 seasons to the tune of around 40 games. I'm not saying I want there to be a further punishment so much as I don’t see how Harbaugh's suspension could be the end of this and not the beginning or middle. Michigan fans understandably hated the timing of it, but from the B1G's perspective, with only three regular season games left, they felt it was right to mete out a punishment this season because the scheme was already evident and proven. It didn't help that Michigan hasn't denied that it occurred or, as the letter stated, admitted to not having reviewed the evidence as of Thursday, November 9th. And also that Stalions resigned after refusing to cooperate with the investigation.
I want to see Michigan compete in the playoff, as I think they're one of the top teams. But if I were a Michigan fan, I'd just be glad the ban didn't extend into the postseason -- at least for now.
Lol, Jimbo Fisher will get a $75,000,00 buyout, $15k is not exactly big bucks in college football.
@@jasonodonnell5177 And it is fools errand to make unsubtantiated accusations.
@@charlestaylor4342 Um, but $15K is a noticeable amount of money for a low-level staffer like Stalions. The fact that he spent thousands and not hundreds to do this is another red flag, especially because reports have made it sound like $15K was a budget threshold.
Given Josh’s impeccable understanding of the alien language, if we were ever invaded by aliens he’d be the one I want communicating and negotiating with them 😂
Players are suspended all the time while investigations are taking place. Why would a coach be treated any differently?
Maybe wait for the evidence
Connor stalions was suspended (then resigned). Your point?
I mean, if they didn't already have a stack of evidence that they said they can prove and TCUN can't counter, that'd be a legitimate response. As is, that's just moronic. It's hilarious all the people (including Mr. Pate) saying wait till the investigation is done, but for the B1G, it is done. They already know what they did and can prove it. That's all you need regardless of people trying to delay things.@@spackdog1045
There is a difference between someone being suspended during a criminal investigation of an act committed by the individual, and someone being suspended during a NCAA rule book violation investigation of an act committed by someone else. Yea, and what @timbrady1176 said
Before I finish watching the vlog, I have to comment about your statement that "punishment was handed down". That sounds like you think this is the ONLY repercussions for that team. The suspensions is not the final punishment that will be levied at the end of all this. The suspension is in reaction to the situation, and the fact that this serious, severe and unprecedented. The B1G could not wait until the end of the season to do something. There will be more punishment that is involved, at the end of all of this.
I think this is just the start of their punishment.
Hey Josh, read Pettiti's 13 page letter. Then tell me the BiG is wrong.
Josh, I know you don't care about what advantage sign stealing gives a team, but Michigan fans do care BECAUSE we've seen multiple national media members say that Michigan specifically won the last two years because of sign stealing. Those people, obviously, can't show evidence for that. But they're willing to put a number on it yet can't show their work. My advice for you is to at least seem impartial with that sort of stuff. Don't act like Michigan fans are trumping up some fake accusations when they aren't. The push back is for idiots like Bruce Feldman who ran around saying he quoted a coach about how sign stealing can swing a game 21 points in your favor. Okay? Then show how that's the case. If you make a qualifiable argument, you HAVE to show your work otherwise you shouldn't be taken seriously. Feldman should know better than to run with a quote that can't be substantiated. That's just being a good journalist.
Has UM denied any official allegations? Not that I'm aware of.
The accusations they threw at other schools were summarily dismissed as without merit.
So here's what we know: At minimum, Michigan benefited from Connor Stalions' work, which all parties stipulate was against the rules.
What we don't know: How it was financed and who knew about it.
In other words, it can only get worse for Michigan, not better.
Did the Big Ten handle it flawlessly? Maybe not. But any effort to paint Michigan as the victim, or as some type of well-oiled machine that soldiers on in the face of persecution is ridiculous. Someone in their organization broke the rules and the program benefited from it. Since you can't punish the group, the leader must be the scapegoat.
This isn't complicated.
Just to pat myself on back, this has held up really well.
I'd care more if the rule wasn't ridiculous. A fan can video a team A's sideline during a game, send it to Team B. Team B can use the information, and it's not a violation.
Ohio cand send Michigan's offensive plays and corresponding signs and Rutgers can send Michigan's defensive signs to Purdue before the B1G championship and it's not a violation.
Connor Stalions asks a couple of buddies and, in some instances his momto go to a game and video sidelines and it's a violation.
News flash, all 3 scenarios have happened and it's all advanced scouting!!!!
It's never a good show without the appearance of the alien
“Michigan handled it better?” I think an appropriate response by UofM would have been to put Harbaugh on an indefinite leave until this plays out. Also, other coaches have been fired for a lot less. Sorry, but I don’t think UofM is handling this very well. They are acting like they are the victims in this travesty.
Since first, Harbaugh immediately denied any knowledge of the operation, then Stalions said that Harbaugh knew nothing about the operation, and finally the B1G and NCAA said that Harbaugh knew nothing about the operation, why would it be appropriate to suspend him until the full investigation is completed?
Hey Josh. I’m a huge fan of your channel. If I want cfb news, you’re my go to.
I'm not sure how anyone could think Michigan's response to this has been good if you read the letter from Pettiti. They have been actively trying to stonewall anything the B1G does because they know they can get through this season before anything real happens to them because the NCAA is completely incompetent and they take forever to do anything. There is clearly an abundance of evidence already, that evidence was shared with the university and with the conference, and it makes sense to take some sort of action now when you know for a fact that this season is being tainted by illegal (in sports terms) actions.
What doesn't make sense is the B1G saying they don't yet know for a fact that Harbaugh had knowledge of it, but suspend him anyway while not touching the OC and DC who we absolutely do know were using Stalions' information during games and that the information was collected illegally. Now, if I'm a Michigan fan, I'm happy as hell that it is Harbaugh that can't be on the sideline instead of Minter and Moore because I think that would be catastrophic for them during the game.
This whole thing is weird, but the mental gymnastics Michigan and their fans are performing to paint themselves as the victims here without even attempting to deny that they cheated is just surreal. I'd be more ok with it if they were just honest. Just say "please let us continue this season to try to win a title that we know you are going to later vacate anyway because we just want to experience it".
Your mental gymnastics is pretty weird considering NO ONE has shown ANY EVIDENCE to the public. See how that works?
@@bk6555 Please read the B1G’s letter.
Well said! A Michigan fan talking about mental gymnastics is hilarious. 😂
Well, if what I hear is true I understand why they would fight/leave BIG.
if the information was accessed illegally through Stallions hard drive which I been hearing (be it an inside job or from an OSU investigation) I can see why they are pissed. Maybe everything they did was pure cheating, but if UM went to Patetiti and showed them yes, we cheated but information was gathered illegally and here is proof plus we are not the only one doing the "unsafe advanced scouting" as OSU, Rutgers, and Purdue did this against us last year pure this source. Yet you still get suspended on a national holiday that you can't petition, with Patetiti stating player safety with the advanced scouting. So UM players safety is not important for the advanced scouting provided to Purdue via Rutgers and OSU, or are they getting suspended too or at the very least investigated? I do Suspect UM has threatened to leave the BIG or Patetiti is to be fired, being the way UM feels this has been handled. UM could very well be in the wrong, but so could Patetiti and his handling causing a contract breach which would allow for a loop hole for UM to leave, and if they do what does the new 4 teams do? Join UM, ND and start their own conference, go Independent? With new playoffs coming you don't need a conference anymore IMO😊
this is the best take of any comment about this cheating scandal.
Is Josh Pate high today???? What? They handled it well? They are handling it insanely poorly.
He cheated he should be punished. You can’t tell me he didn’t know, there’s literally video of Stallions talking to DC, OC and Harbaugh on the side line.
This means nothing. Stalions was talking to the coaches during the game because of his duties as the (perfectly legal) designated in-game sign stealer.
Let's not pretend Jimmy didn't have enough against him to earn this suspension. In fact he should get some now and later. Michigan looked much tamer actually playing someone didn't they?
1. No, Michigan showed everyone they can show their own signs (run repeatedly) and did not get stopped by the best run defense. No they did not look tame.
2. You’re a fan. What’s your team?
I guess they meant to win by 9 then. Sry to ruffle ya this morning.
I guess they meant to win by 9 then. Sry to ruffle ya this morning.
I guess they meant to win by 9 then. Sry to ruffle ya this morning.
I guess they meant to win by 9 then. Sry to ruffle ya this morning.
you are very correct. i have followed this situation for the past few weeks intently and followed 1 or 2 people that focus specificlyon michigan and ahve extermely good information and they have been saying michigan has a lot of things on the table. and that it is not out of the question to leave the B10
Anyone that says that has no clue what they're talking about. TCUN makes 10x more money from research and other University affiliations that they'd lose if they left the B1G. If I had the numbers I'd link them for you, but it's actually quite a bit more than 10x, I'm just using that number as a SUPER conservative. Absolutely zero chance they give up all that money because they're butt hurt about this.
Sure they could leave the B1G. Ignoring that what they did violated NCAA rules and expecting zero punishment for it, leaving because they messed up is pretty dumb.
Michigan is not the victim here no matter how they try to spin it. If you drive drunk it's hardly a defense to say other people do it when they have you dead to rights.
@@Alexinytown hopped on here to say the same thing. Leaving because you got caught?! Stupid. Also... Michigan's best PR is the Ohio State rivalry. Leaving is incredibly short-sighted.
@@Alexinytownit is a level 3 violation. You know, the type that comes with small fines and some training classes. The guy who broke the rules is already gone.
advanced scouting is legal
Sign stealing is legal
The issue is alleged in person scouting. And seeing as how OSU, Purdue, Illinois and Rutgers all had and shared Michigan’s signs they claimed were gained “legally”. So where is the competitive advantage? So spare me the cheating crap. End result is the same. Signs are known by the opponent. We are talking about an alleged violation of a rule put in place to even out resource allocation between large and small schools. Aka, so smaller schools save money.
Michigan 100% isn't leaving the B1G lol..
I understand ignoring competitive advantage when determining guilt. Either the rule was broken or it wasn't, However, it should be part of deciding punishment. If after the investigation is completed and guilt is determined the punishment should fit the crime. That's when we should be discussing competitive advantage gained.
He literally said "How do you even prove that?" and he is right. The NCAA already set precedent with dealing out punishment with this low level violation, a 1/2 game suspension for 2016 Baylor. However, the people that Stallion sent are 3rd party or hell could have been private citizens actually given tickets to attend for funsies. How does the NCAA even find these people? AND that 3rd party isn't considered a violation via the rule laid out.....
What are we even doing here? 😂
@@bk6555 I don't disagree with you. I think the NCAA has to prove Stalions actions not only occurred, but also that those actions were against the rule. How did the NCAA determine that punishment for Baylor? Was their violation "in person scouting"?
@@davidbartlett6746 All I know is that when rulings are issued by entities or whatnot, it is most definitely used as a jumping point for future issues and that the NCAA has to be fair themselves in this regard, otherwise the lawyers can take them to court for litigation. The Big10 ruling is extremely odd because you can literally read the bylaw that says the Comissioner cannot go more than 2 game suspension unless having approval by others. That is asinine to have to go above and beyond the normal scope over an issue that hasn't been investigated and completed by the NCAA yet. It is EXTREMELY odd and unusual. The Big10 HAS TO answer that ruling and how they got to it.
@@bk6555 BIG can go more than 2 games with the board's approval (I can't remember the actual name of the board). They received that approval. Bottom line though is the BIG10 should have let the process continue, e.g. complete investigation, before punishment.
@@bk6555 I just looked up the Baylor in person scouting case. The school self-imposed a half game suspension on an assistant coach who personally attended and scouted a future opponent's game. Even though it sounds like it was only one game, it is a much clearer violation (the COACH personally did the in person scouting), and the NCAA did not impose any further punishment. Sounds like if Harbaugh doesn't get a TRO, and serves the suspension any further punishment wouldn't follow precedent and would be unfair.
Cheaters
Only Michigan could have fans and the players talk about Harbaugh like he’s either been killed or sentenced to the chair by dawn. Such melodramatics from the Midwest crowd.
What a weird cult. Interim coach out there crying like Harbaugh had a damn heart attack on the field. These jackasses get caught cheating and act like they’re the victim? They can all go f themselves.
Rent free
Only opposing fan bases are the ones crying.
@@slippery646 Sherrone Moore would like to have a word
@@GeorgeWKush-lr3ul crying about Michigan's whole situation d bag lol. Moore was crying because they won, yet again.
Almost every single profession in America if a person is under investigation, they are suspended pending the result of the investigation, not after the investigation during the investigation. Every police officer does not get to work while they’re under investigation of a shooting it is not odd that he is suspended during the investigation, and just like a police officer, if found not guilty of the investigation, he’s good to go
Innocent until proven guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt is the way its supposed to be unfortunately Americans like to pick and choose in which they use the constitution so it basically means nothing anyway lol
@@dangerousdylan6262 this isn’t a legal issue so all that and all due process is irrelevant. If that’s the case why was he suspended for the first 3 games?? That investigation is still ongoing…. So what’s different about this????
@@Shibdefend If "isn't a legal issue" then why did you bring a legal issue into it; police shooting. The investigation of a police shooting is to determine if it is a "legal" shoot. Additionally, Harbaugh's suspension according to the BIG is a punishment. Unlike, an officer's suspension (I think they actually call it, administrative leave) is not a punitive it is procedural.
@@davidbartlett6746 wow petty they cheated he deserves to be fired along with that cry baby OC and DC deal with it
@@Shibdefend No need for insults, you made an argument that I addressed. That punishment seems a little extreme considering that Baylor had an assistant coach personally attend a future opponent's game, and self-imposed a HALF game suspension. The NCAA imposed no further punishment.
I think it’s safe to say Michigan will have other programs getting looked into in the near future especially now that the big ten acted the way they did prematurely.
You're comments still fall short of the fact that "wrong" hasn't been proven yet. Wonder why that is if it's so obvious. Well obvious to folks full of hate anyway. The only thing proven is Connor buying tickets for others to attend future opponents' games. It's not yet determined who (or at least not yet made public knowledge), those people were (members of staff or just random friends). Nor has it yet been proven or made public as to why or what came of it. If it was random friends and not staff, then it wasn't breaking any rules specifically. It would have been an attempt to get through a loophole in the rules which schools do all the time. No different from OSU and Rutgers giving all of Michigan's plays to Purdue last year. So many questions that still needs to be answered before coming to "factual conclusions". All Michigan wants is due process which is being denied. Any fan or staff member of any other school would say the same thing. If wrong was done, then fair justice be served. No one is saying otherwise. But note I said "Fair" justice.
Josh, I wonder if Oregan, Washington, Alabama, Ga, Fla.State. Miami, Clemson, just how they would accept being punished without due process? one man and a whole conference played judge, jury, and executioner. while the investigation is still active, and on going..
Won’t matter anyways when they lose to Ohio State
Lol @2:15
Josh says “I took it upon myself to talk to several Michigan fans who represented themselves very well (numerically)…”
Lol- well played, sir
This isn't over for Michigan yet as the Big Ten and the NCAA aren't done yet. They have also not divulged all their information they have either, though the NCAA is about an inept an organization as I have ever seen so who know is they will still be around by the time they finish their investigation.
If Michigan leaves, that would be completely ridiculous. They know they broke rules. Even with that, only their coach got a small punishment (2012 Ohio State team couldn't play for the National Championship despite being undefeated). I think they get to the Playoffs and matchups will determine their success and this whole thing will fall by the wayside like every other scandal that hit these programs.
What rule did michigan break?
@@timbrady1176 Bylaw 11.6.1 Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited and Michigan didn't meet the exceptions.
@@sheridanclan6 Oh interesting! What michigan staffer went in person?
@@timbrady1176 , I get that is it so hard to accept when the team you support has been accused of cheating. I dealt with it myself at my ACC alma mater. Being obtuse about it will not help the situation.
@@sheridanclan6 And you making accusations without any proof is about as obtuse as you can get. If you cant accurately answer the questions, then that is a you problem.
I was a Michigan fan growing up from afar til I moved down state and got a dose of their fans and media.
They think the rest of Big Ten is just cannon fodder.
You were never a fan lol. You are a troll with no life who has nothing better to do than to comment on a teams video that you don't support or like. But yet you can't get enough of their content. Lol
I’m confused here, your saying they are not cannon fodder? Could have fooled me that’s for sure.
You see how their media never reported the pedo on their staff.
Cheaters playing victims...
Hater trolls playing knowledgeable commenters…
Agree with you Josh!!
South Central Louisiana State would like a few words🤣
"Mich vs everybody"
You're going to unironically steal our catchphrase too? Seriously, guys?
Who's catchphrase?
Honestly, everyone uses this phrase
Day's catch phase should of been us vs an 86 year old.
The NCAA is dropping the hammer
What hammer lol???
LMAO, sure ok.
The NCAA hammer is like the hammer in my toddlers tool box these days lol
@@joechriste7052 keep telling yourself that.
The ncaa hasn't done anything. The B1G suspended Harbaugh. Educate yourself
I have a hard time believing you've had all these conversations with various people. You're missing so many facets and aspects of this that someone would have had to of brought up by now and they aren't things you could ignore and would definitely affect some of your statements. You actually sound like you've read a few cliff notes and went from there.
Shoutout to Columbus State University
Michigan cheats
Michigan does advanced scouting
@@drugsmadillaillegal advanced scouting to gain an unfair competitive advantage against their opponents..
What’s the different between watching film on a team ,, this is a jok and where will it stop 🛑 maybe they shouldn’t use the same Picture all season to call a play 😂 Washington DC politics in football.
They waiting til osu week to drop a bombshell it will be planned. They have the dirt
It’s not only the fact they may have beat teams they shouldn’t have but also who did they keep out of any championship playoffs were cheated by Michigans cheating. How many years?
The judge will grant the injunction, the big 10 knows it, Michigan knows it, Tosu knows it.
Exactly why they waited this late to do it to make sure they get their little slap on the risk this season since Jim Harbaugh will be dead of old age before those turtles at the NCAA finishes their investigation and decide a punishment
@@lylemoore3827
Playing a top 10 team for the first time this season on the road without your head coach on the sideline is hardly a slap on the wrist.
How did the organization handle anything well?? By not letting Harbaugh coach?? I dont think that was their decision.
The TEAM beat Penn State because theyre a better team.
Also, whats the point in banning a coach from the sideline during the game? Honestly, most coaching comes during the week and in the preseason. There might be a couple of times a game when the coach's decision matters. Gameplan to me is way more important.
Just my opinions.
They (Michigan) won on the road against a top 10 team without their head coach. I'll bet if Nick Saban weren't on the sidelines Alabama wouldn't be the same team.
That's what I've been saying. The coordinators really run the show on game day anyway. They haven't really been punished. This was just a little red meat to calm the crowd. There's more coming.
@@Al-Rudigorso you're into punishing people multiple times for the same crime or something? Like "double jeopardy"? Seriously, the Big Ten shot their shot and any further punishment from them for the same reason would be absolutely absurd.
Yeah before nil if a team got caught buying play. ers should they have been punished or would you justify it by saying every body does it
USC did. And yes, they all said "b-b-b-b-b-but everyone does it"
No, everyone does not. Otherwise they'd be caught too.
One likely outcome of UM's anger is Petitti goes or, at the very least, UM moves to change its money sharing agreement with thr Big10 to no longer doing "equal sharing".
@@jasonodonnell5177 Considering there's rumblings that the Fox Sports president is pissed at Petiti for the way this was handled, I'd be very careful saying none of that will happen.
Sure, maybe we won't find out too much more about what Michigan did (though it's possible that we still might), but the NCAA investigation and penalties are still coming. What are they going to do, walk away from their NCAA affiliation too? It's so pathetic. They broke the rules knowing full-well what would happen if they were caught, and now they think they're the victims somehow. They could never admit it, but I hope at least a few people associated with that program realize just how embarrassing this all is.
Josh, if you think the B1G’s response was a joke, then what would you have them do instead?
The other teams in the conference unanimously agreed that the Michigan players should NOT be punished.
If they went the other way and just issued a fine, the narrative would be that the B1G Commissioner is incompetent and there would be chaos right now.
If we are going to punish players before they get a trial, then the coach must be liable to the same standard.
Are you referring to the criminal assault of Michigan players by MSU players swinging helmets that was captured on video last year?
No comparison at all. Any consequences for illegal sign stealing activities should come after the NCAA investigation is complete.
This whole thing is far from over IMO.. I'm still dumbfounded by how some media has yet to grasp the severity of this situation and have yet to connect the dots.. this whole situation is insanity in real time.. I think it'll get super ugly by the time the dust settles.. Michigan has become a joke..
You wish
@@drugsmadillahow do you honestly and genuinely think that this whole thing will end for Michigan?
@@BB13131313 who knows, but Michigan will keep winning
@@drugsmadilla until they become vacated wins..
@@BB13131313 doubt it, and even if they do, still a win. Cope.
I don’t like how Pate State Investigates is now just a knock off X Files.
Dude why is the alien a lizard creature?
HEY jOSH HES A FING CHEATER
Ongoing investigation
@@Miller09095 caught red-handed
@@arubial1229 What rule did michigan break?
@@timbrady1176 are you fucking kidding me? Even if Harbaugh didn’t know, that’s irrelevant. Stallions’ actions directly contributed to Michigan benefitting on the field. They knew the plays ahead of time because of what he did. You cannot be that obtuse.
@@timbrady1176I see you haven’t followed along, just wait..ncaa is ending your cheating program 😂😂😂😂
Jim can stomp and scream all he wants when the NCAA vacates three years worth of wins it will right his wrongs.Good news is you get to keep the losses to Georgia and TCU on your record.0-1,0-1,0 and whatever happens the rest of this year and you win three Asterisks for 2021,2022,2023.
An independent or sec michigan wouldn't surprise me
If Michigan wants to leave the Big 10 in a temper tantrum because they got punished for cheating, they should be shown the door. The Big 10 just got a lot bigger and Michigan is suddenly a much smaller fish.
You are absolutely clueless about the B1G to make this comment.
So when are you going to admit you were dead wrong about Penn State beating Michigan?? And they did it w/o the coach and ran over there top ranked defense...
I just have a real hard time with wishy washy takes like this. Cheating is an integrity/character issue. A principle. It’s binary - right vs wrong. If you don’t agree then that’s the problem.
If you agree that: 1) cheating happened, 2) it was done by Michigan and it’s irrelevant whether JH knew bc he “should have” and 3) it’s irrelevant whether you think it was an advantage or not - and Josh agrees with all 3, then Michigan* has no “side” left here. Their opinion and feelings absolutely do not matter. And there’s no reason to act like “both sides” have some good points here. The cheaters are wrong and there’s no reason to give quarter to their weak ass complaints. I bet memaw agrees…
Edit: it’s even more true when the guilty party is indignant and not remorseful. Josh knows better than this. No one is obligated to give equal treatment to the cheater who doesn’t even show remorse….
I think part of the issue here is that you mentioned cheating as an "integrity/character" issue, which is true, but then you mentioned the likelihood that Harbaugh didn't know. Of course, the program should have known, but there's nothing to suggest they did, and the staffer even came out to mention that he hid everything from the program. As a result, it's really not an "integrity/character" issue outside of one low-level employee but rather a "negligence" issue within the program.
As a result, how much remorse can you really show when you don't even know what's going on? You can be upset at yourself that you didn't know, and accept the consequences, which the program very much reiterated that they would do in their letter to the Big Ten. But to apply the label "cheater who shows no remorse" to that coach/program that knew nothing is pretty unfair, especially without any due process of investigation before punishment. And that's the main issue that we have.
@@bearnuckles4657
Well said. It’s amazing that so many rivals are frothing at the mouth for some kind of consequences before ALL the facts are out and the full investigation is COMPLETED.
Are they just afraid of facing Michigan on the field this year, when all teams will have had ample time to mitigate any advantage provided by any improper activity?
Go Blue . Free Harbaugh
Cheaters
@@arubial1229your a 🤡 like the rest of the BIG
@@arubial1229 lol yea ok .
@@MrCtsSteve honestly what defense do you possibly have? They were caught RED-HANDED!
@@arubial1229a low level staffer with some crazy manifesto was caught ..did Harbaugh know ?? Let the investigation play out . Due process right ? . Yea Harbaugh may have been doing 90 when everyone else was doing 85 .... Much ado about nothing . It's a bullshit rule that needs to change anyway .
fence sitting
Michigan is one of the most beloved and hated programs in college football. That's a recipe for going independent. If anything they should jump ship out of the weak ass Big Ten
Who belove
Hey Josh - since you're so convinced Michigan "did something wrong" - when can we expect your outrage over Rutgers and Ohio stealing signs/advanced scouting to give Purdue Michigan's signs for the Big10 title game? Or are you going to go with "well....that's always been done so it doesn't count" defense? Michigan is being charged with advanced scouting - no different than that what Ohio and Rutgers did. In fact - its worse - as they shared that info with another team - in other words conspiring against Michigan thus violating the now "coveted" Sportsmanship rule in the Bunk10. Looking forward to your outrage over this - but I won't hold my breath.
Seeing as how that never happened, there isn't anything for Josh to be outraged about.
@@richarddexter7641 wtf are you talking about? Are you even following this story or just mouth breathing in cbus?
@@rootedrotor525 I don't have my head buried in the sand like yours is.
@@richarddexter7641 No, your head is buried up Paul Finebaums and other talking heads arsses w/o looking at the facts. Pearl Clutching to the nth degree. DA SIGNS!! 124-28 SINCE DA SIGNS.
@@rootedrotor525 So, Harbaugh took his punishment because there's no evidence then. Is that your claim?
And then I’m happy after getting caught we still go out and win. lol 😂
Is there due process in the BigTen? Doesn't seem like it. Suspending Harbaugh on a Friday, federal holiday, while he is in the air traveling, seems like a punk thing to do to guarantee that the Big Ten do something for the other coaches in the league. The coaches were the ones pushing for this to derail Michigan's chances to win another Big Ten Championship even as they secretly scout all the other teams and pull the same shenanigans. This was an attempt to affect the outcome of the PSU game for Michigan and it blew up in their face. More than likely, Ryan Day is leading this effort as he is literally facing the end of his job if he loses a 3rd straight to Michigan and Harbaugh. But this is going to backfire, because should Michigan defeat OSU and Day without Harbaugh this calls into question even more Day's ability to win this big game. More than likely he's gone and OSU is in the wilderness for five years. The investigation is ongoing, let it play out however it is going to play out, but if I were Ryan Day I would want to see Harbaugh on that sideline in two weeks, because if OSU beats Michigan, they will have beaten Harbaugh too and Day will keep his million dollar job. But if they lose without Harbaugh being there, then they lost to a team with a stand-in assistant coach exposing what a lousy coaching job Day is doing and he gets fired. Mistake.
😢😢😭😭😭😓😓😓😡
This take here is a prime example of "dumb as it gets".
@@TheGolferguy71Not as dumb as you guys getting your panties in a wad with a sandful vagina over a low level infraction allegation in which no evidence that Stallion was at said "scouted" games. Not even the CMU allegations were verified. 😂
PSU Coach Franklin already fired his OC over the Michigan game. Someone had to be the scapegoat I guess. Same logic. @@TheGolferguy71
I hope you're being sarcastic, you can't possibly be this naive.@@TheJetstream10
Micheagan got caught in action, feeling ashamed for a second, climbing back her high horse and yelling at onlookers how dare you laughing at me.
Go Blue! BET! The entire Michigan community is behind Harbaugh, Ono, and our boys on the field.
The way Petitte and the Big Ten handled this situation was and is currently so disappointing.
Good job Josh
The university will destroy the program trying to protect a lying Harbaugh. And you breathless fanboys will hoot and cheer while they do it.
lol they probably won cause they had their signs
“Makes a microcosm of a difference” 😂😂
Bet
bEt
Unsubscribed after listening to this.
Bye
@@JoshPateCFB only Michigan walmart wolverines think Michigan should be allowed to cheat and get away with it.
Michigan will have the last 3 years of wins removed from the record and they shouldn’t be allowed to play in the post season and take the opportunity from a team that played fairly.
As for Jim’s suspension? Irrelevant minor punishment they was defined by the rules Michigan agreed to and helped author.
Defending them is clownish and absurd. Claiming they shouldn’t be punished until they ruin the post season again is absurd.
There is no two sides to this issue. There is everyone in the world who thinks cheating is wrong and then there are the Michigan Walmart wolverines who think their school didn’t cheat and Also is allowed to cheat because it didn’t make a big difference and they would have won anyway.
Reminder that there are 13 other schools with players who won’t go the NFL and fans want to compete in a fair game and have a fair shot at winning.
For that reason I’m out too. Go shart in the Walmart and cheer on your version of the ‘sport’ where Michigan gets to lie and cheat and cover up at every aspect of the game and you pretend it’s anything but wwe BS.
Oh wait you are just pandering to a large fanbase for a big brand to get views. Sad and pathetic.
@@JoshPateCFB😂😂😂😂😂
Sorry I'm to the point NONE of the coordinators or head coach should be allowed to coach the rest of the season, along with MI banned from the Big 10 title game And MI pays the Big 10 for all loss revenue
You must be another frustrated Buckeye fan. Everyone has had plenty of time to change their sign system since before Michigan played Michigan State. OSU even said that they change up their signs before last year‘s game. Didn’t make a difference. Come to Ann Arbor and take your whuppin on 11/25.
@@PonderingOne nope not an OSU fan of any way shape or form. I'm just done with a program that cheats instead of trusting a roster of great talent. But Jim is like his dad, cheat at all cost
@@ChrisTurnerblindprech
This is the internet, so any 🤡 can allege anything without a shred of truth.
No need to read between the lines here: the 🤡 is YOU.
Run over penn st , haha a joke like Michigan football....they'd having a losing record in the SEC and wouldn't be able to score on bama or UGA.. pathetic they in the top 5
The SEC is ass 2 good teams every year and the rest are just atrocious. UGA would have 3 losses a year in the big 10
michigan would consistently be a 10 win team in sec. with the playoff expansion that's good enough.
The only difference between the Big10 and SEC is geography. You SEC fans remind me of Bobby Miles dad from that football movie, just blind to anything outside of your perception of the world.
@@justinsaunders785 geography and championships... For several decades plus