BOOK COMMUNITEA: BOOKTOK AT IT AGAIN, COPYRIGHT LAWSUIT, AND WHAT DID NEIL GAIMAN DO?? [CC]
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Hey hey! Back for another #BookCommuniTEA because it's been awhile and oh boy...booktok is acting up, should women read M/M romance? What did Neil Gaiman do? Please share your thoughts below, but keep it cute and respectful. Thanks for watching!
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with the "straight women reading/writing MLM romance" thing I remember when I was a teen and reading MLM in fanfiction and the community around it being like "isn't it weird we're all straight girls reading about boys kissing", but then a few years later discovering that I wasn't straight and a lot of that community also came out or present as a different gender now. Sometimes people's first time exploring queerness isn't centred around themselves and its approaching it from a different perspective that gives them the room to explore it and gives them space to bring it into their own lives.
I came out too!
Edit: that being said, I totally understand being a young gay man/boy and reaching for MM romance only to find out, that gay male writers are marginalised in their own genre sucks.
THIS!!!
@@moustik31 yeah 100% its a shame readers aren't seeking out gay male authors in order to support them!
Turned out, I was bi and also on the ace spectrum-oops!. (Also, turned out I was extremely open to polyamory, although I am currently in a longterm happily monogamous relationship; it's kind of like how a bi person is still bi, even if they're only in a relationship with one gender at a time, I don't need to have relationships with more than just one person at a time but I'm not opposed to the possibility and theoretically could potentially develop feelings for either more than one person at the same time or for exclusively one person at a time. So, when I saw people complaining about girls reading/writing M|M relationships allegedly fantasizing about inserting themselves where they're unwanted between two gay men and how squicky that supposedly was, I'm kinda just like "bold of you to assume the men they're imagining themselves between are gay[ and not bi] just because those men are nonplatonically involved together".? Lol)
Sometimes people's first experiences with _sexuality_ in general isn't centered around themselves, it's approaching it from a different perspective that gives them space to explore it safely from a distance and allows them to choose if or when or how to ever bring it any further into their own lives or not.. . Even if they are straight, not only if or when they are queer. (Sometimes, people also need a safe distance to explore it less directly identifiable with themselves because they have trauma surrounding it that is easier to work through if/when they are more able to approach it indirectly or by imagining things happening to someone more unlike themself than at all alike to themself, too.)
And, honestly, sometimes the girls are just so straight they literally just want to see only guys everywhere from time to time-no gals.😅 😂🤣😂
But, yeah, a lot of the things that people criticized M|M fiction written by women for (like the 'gay only for him' trope) can be extremely relatable real-life experiences for people on the ace spectrum and/or for people with split attraction types and/or just for bi persons in general. ((The first time we fall for someone of the same-sex can initially seem very much as if it is legit only them, since it's not always just obvious attraction to all persons of any/all genders all the time, and because sometimes the attraction doesn't develop immediately only starts to hit later on after first developing a deeper or more personal emotional connection with them OR stems from the dichotomy of romantic attractions vs sexual attractions[ and developing one kind of attraction for a person of the same-sex after previously having developed another kind of attraction for persons of the opposite-sex] and so on.))
There is more complexity and nuance to the issue than people often give it credit for, I think. But maybe that's just me, idk. 😊🤷🤷♀️🤷🏻♂️
I'm gonna be honest it took me too long to realize mlm meant a gay romance. I was like women are out there writing multilevel marketing stories??
I’m so baffled at the first story, if the lawsuit turns out to be true I wouldn’t even know what to say. Like that’s incredibly grimey on a new level, the publishing industry is so cooked.
That's really sickening, to have that woman spend three years of her life writing a book under your supervision, then steal it all and tell them their book can't be published...That's diabolical.
On MLM topic, I think the issue keeps going around in a cycle because we, (cis gay man here) immediately resort to criticizing the lower hanging fruits, in this case cishet women who read and write MLM romance, rather than criticizing and talking about the real problem, who and what is deciding what and how much of queer representation is adequate.
The frustration in representation that I have felt is this. Two decades or so back, there was so little you had to comb through list after list of stories, online book lists, Redditt, fan fiction, etc. to find any if at all. Any representation, no matter how small, dismissive, problematic, or unrelatable, was gold.
Now, there is so much of gay male representation in literature (and other media) that it feels like, finally there is got to be representation I can relate to. It creates an expectation of acknowledgement and validation! But when you actually start going through these books and book after book you keep coming across characters and storylines that are many times repetitive, unnuanced or stereotyped, you feel like you have been had, once again. Despite all this representation, you still have to comb through hundreds of posts and online lists to find representation that acknowledges the emotionally dark, messy, experience of queerness in a realistic and validating way. It is very discouraging and frustrating. You feel like you have been pushed out of what should have been a platform for you to finally find reflection of your experiences in the stories. I don't want to speak for every gay man out there, but that is definitely how I have felt.
At the same time, I have come across many discourse online of readers talking about how these books have helped them explore their own queerness in a safe manner, which has been very eye opening and I think is amazing. I wish I had that resource as easily accessible when I was struggling with my queerness. I don't believe we should be policing or restricting what is written and who writes it. After all, it is that sort of moral policing that has kept queer representation out of media in the first place. Also, as some of the commentators have pointed out, it also muffles actual queer voices.
There is clearly both an importance of and a desire for both type of stories. In fact, there is desire for all variety of queer representation in literature but when profit motive and cold diversity stats are determining what gets published, I doubt we will ever find a solution for this argument. We are essentially fighting a "turf" war over a limited platform when what is required is an expansion of the platform itself.
I appreciate you saving me the time of having to type up a comment of my own, because now I can just say I agree with this. 😋
@@ArcticWolfe84 He he.. you are welcome! 😊
I'm a firm believer that originality doesn't exist in a vacuum and that everything derives from something. Crave is different enough from Twilight to be original despite having the same marketing, style, character types, and tropes etc. NOW what Freeman alleges is essentially the entire composition was influenced and even directly stolen by her manuscripts. You can have similar characters and scenes but goddamn the same names, same characters, same prose, same scenes, all traceable back to her work? And the torture that awful publisher put her through just to drop her. Yeah no it's not original.
Yep.
I read the Twilight Saga multiple times a year and after reading crave, I don’t really think they’re similar at all beyond the same general trope of “human” girl surrounded by monsters secretly. If the author didn’t reference Twilight and YA romance in the story itself, I don’t think I would have drawn the comparison (I have never seen any marketing for the book so I went in blind).
@@latteatthelibrary the covers and title design of the crave series look really similar to twilight imo so I always assumed it was trying to piggyback off the twilight hype from seeing it in stores
right. i read the first crave book and its just so different.
@@ofthewilderwoods I really don’t think the covers are similar. The first books share a color scheme but Crave’s cover is a lot closer to New Moon’s cover than Twilight and it’s still not even that close. If I saw Crave without knowing it was a vampire book, I wouldn’t immediately think of Twilight.
The Neil Gaiman story has me feeling so many emotions. Because he is such a famous and prolific author a lot of fans are going to be so ready to defend him.
It’s so disappointing. I enjoy his work but even HIS version of the events is incredibly inappropriate. Sexual misconduct is the BEST case scenario here
@@Likeicare96 The 20 and 40 year age gap, the power dynamic... how can you deny it? But also, I feel like we need a public statement from him.
The age gap between Neil and Amanda had me giving him the side-eye even back when I would have called myself a fan of his, but by the time I had learned about their marriage, Amanda had reached an age and a point in her own career and life where I felt that the inherent power imbalance was mitigated enough to just mind my own business about the whole thing. Now that there are allegations that seem to indicate that he consistently targets women so much younger than himself, even if he's calling everything "consensual..."
No ma'am. Something in the milk ain't clean.
I have to say that I’m appreciative that the Gaiman stuff was covered here. I have not actively searched for people covering this but I follow mainly fantasy booktubers (that I really like) and none of them have covered it…
And that’s disappointing.
So far, those people have not (thankfully) defended it but they just have not brought it up so who knows.
I just feels it just not talked about in the fantasy booktube sphere (that I personally follow) and I’m glad that someone is bringing this serious matter up.
I’m not a massive fan of him but have read lots of his novels and that sucks that this keeps happening and not even being that surprising anymore…
Yeah... On the one hand, I'm never one to conflate someone's craft and their ability to work that craft well together with them as a person beyond that craft; but, on the other hand, it's still not great any time someone might be less great as a person than ideal and people blindly defending anyone just because they're really good at a certain craft (or other job/career / whatever else) is never good.
As a writer, I think it's weird that the agent asked for notes because I write my notes for me and often it's an idea that I jot down quickly to revisit later and there's no way to naturally fit it into the story. I would be embarrassed if somebody saw all of my bad ideas instead of just the good ones. However, somebody who may be new to the publishing world and eager to please might not want to upset their agent or know how this works. For future reference, it's not unusual for an agent to ask questions about the story and the world, it is unusual to ask for notes.
Some women write m/m romance for the same reasons women have been writing slash fanfic since the 1960s: m/m eliminated gendered, patriarchal "romance" stereotypes that inadvertently reinforce negative aspects of gender relations.
I read this Crave lawsuit because the agent named in it is one I submitted my first novel to - at the time, I was pretty bummed to not get a request from her. I've seen some people say, "Well, the Crave concept isn't that unique, so it's not plagiarism," but Lynne Freeman outlines a long list of very specific similarities. If she's telling the truth, it's not a coincidence. I can't imagine writing 45 versions of a manuscript for someone. An absolutely wild story.
Me either! And on top of all that BS she was put through she didn't even see a book to final print! That's just crazy to me.
@@night_jadeThat part!! 👆
"The discourse wheel has spun again... but it's on a stationary bicycle ever spinning but never getting anywhere". THIS. It's like yo there are terrible things going on in the world is women reading MM romance really the thing we want to spend our energy on? Like hello? He also brings up a good point about Casey McQuiston who is a non-binary bisexual person who people constantly call a "cis het woman" they are literally none of those things. Their most recent upcoming book features a non binary main character but I'm sure they will still get flack from that.
Ok. On the MLM topic. As a young fem presenting queer person in the south before I knew I was queer some of the only content I could see myself in was gay romance of the MLM variety. It has a special place in my heart as it was the first expression of queer love I was able to read as a sheltered kid. Years later and Wow I was just a very closeted Enby with no outlet for how I felt I didn't fit the binary I was being shown in most media.
You’re right that the thirsting after a murder is weird but honestly it makes me feel so sorry for the victims’ families. They’re already grieving and dealing with reliving this horror through court. Then to see strangers online romanticizing the murderer is just awful. He does not deserve any attention let alone positive attention. It’s disgusting.
Agreed. It''s one thing (still bad) to thirst over him. But it's another to do it publicly online. People need to keep their feelings to themselves sometimes.
The topic of gatekeeping BL and MM content has come up soooo often throughout my time on the internet and in fandoms and I'm so sick of it. Sometimes it's rooted in misogyny, sometimes not. I primarily consume MM romance with the occasional FF and MF (in movies usually cause only then i can stomach MF), and I'm both ace and agender (possibly aro too, we'll see). Despite this I haven't changed my assigned at birth name, or use any other pronouns other than she/her, and I still appear femme.
Others have already listed many valid reasons and for me personally, my main issue is that I don't want to see myself in a romance. I don't want to in any way feel like the female character(s) in a romance are a stand-in, so to say, for me, the reader. I am agender, but I've still grown up as a woman and continue to SUFFER in this body lol so no matter how I internally feel, part of me will always feel "female". I can't seem to escape that.
UNLESS I consume romance that doesn't involve a female body to (unintentionally) project onto.
That's my main reason, there's more like my inherent extreme discomfort with female genitalia, but yeah. It's very tiring needing to explain oneself every time this discourse comes up cause it feels like needing to defend deeply personal and nuanced preferences IN FICTION while being called a fetishiser.
I believe there's only some merit to that accusation if you were prejudiced against the lgbtq community IRL while loving fictional lgbtq characters, but that's an essay for another day. Y'all get the point, I've yapped on long enough 💀
Honestly, how people reacted to that killer makes me understand why other people are so against dark romance novels or even contemporary romance that features darker themes. I feel like some readers are not good at comprehending the gravity of some of the scenes in those books or they just don’t interact critically with the books they read. It’s one thing to read dark romance but realize that it’s a suspension of reality. It’s whole other thing to let it disort how perceive real life abusive/dark situations.
Yes! Because whether we realize or not we use books and other media to shape ourselves
There's also the fact that whoever you are, whatever you do, if you !!only!! read dark romance you WILL internalize these harmful pattern and behavior
I dont especially like the comparaison, but it is similar to porn in that way. Consuming once in a while is fine, but not if its the one thing you're going to watch constantly, you're inevitably going to get bored with the more vanilla ones and are going to want to go to extremes -, again not a fan of the comparaison but the escalation is similar
If i had to comment about smtg personal, i used to watch a lot of content surrounding accidents and murders. It was interesting, but after a while i quickly realized it impacted me ; it made me even more anxious to go out and sometimes id have trouble sleeping at night, i wouldnt be able to stay home alone without feeling extremely anxious. Nowadays i dont consume that type of content except once in a while and im fine.
It may be fiction, but when you read fiction and immerse yourself in it, it does impact you, weither you like it or not. Anyway srry for the rant, eng isnt my native langage either lmao so if theres some sentences that sounds strange thats why
@@noko8692 thank you for the way you’ve worded all of this, and i couldn’t agree more! it’s why i’ve always side eyed the discussion around video games causing violence. do i believe that if you play the occasional first person shooter that you’re gonna suddenly go out on a killing spree? of course not! but i think it’s irresponsible to ignore that the more a person becomes immersed in a certain type of media, the more their mental health is impacted by it. just the desensitization alone that that sort of content has on people has been observed by social scientists for decades now!
that’s why conscious consumption and critical media analysis is so important.
I’m not even on Tik Tok and yet Book-Tok still finds a way to continually make me cringe.
I appreciate you talking about how disturbing it is to make violent people into "thirst traps".
Also do people not notice the whole-ass swastika on that man’s face? Like even if he was not doing the terrible crimes would that not be a deal breaker? Hello??? The irony is that the dark romance girlies are always saying “it’s just a book and we wouldn’t feel that way about real life” when people criticize some of the work in the genre and yet here we are!
Here's the thing, though-dark romance girlies and real-life groupies for actual criminals are like two separate circles but of course may or may not also have some overlaps, like a venn diagram. But certain bad apples do not necessarily spoil literally every bunch-and not every apple is in or from the same bunch just because it was an apple of any kind at all. (If that makes any sense) 😅🙃😶👀
As a bi guy I'd like to share my perspective on the mlm romance "issue".
TLDR: It is completely okay for you to read or write whatever you want. You are not automatically fetishizing gay men by doing so. I am just trying to share why some people may feel like that is the case, on a situational basis. The main issue is when you let the stereotypes you see in fiction impact your views of gay men in real life. All of this mostly applies to reading or writing more erotic content.
I don't think anyone cares if a (presumably) cishet woman reads mlm romance from time to time, or even if that's the only romance they read. The issue with fetishization comes in two ways. One, obviously, when you involve real people. Books are not real life, and it is harmful to project stereotypes onto actual people. This is less an issue I see with actual published novels, but is something that is seen online a lot in fandom spaces. Secondly, the reason why someone chooses to read mlm romance. You don't want to read straight romance, despite being straight, for xyz reason? Sure, you can read what you want. But if you're choosing to read romance as a form of escapism and a way to imagine yourself in another world, there's a question: why do you choose to read gay romance over sapphic romance? It can feel icky to some people that, instead of prioritizing a scenario that could involve you, as a woman, you are prioritizing your attraction to the people in the story. To be clear: Obviously, you can still project yourself as being inside a mlm romance book, even if you're a woman. It's also completely fine to just watch a story unfold from an outsider's perspective. But in the case of erotic material especially, some people may be uncomfortable with you viewing it as a spectator would.
My dog heard the squeaky toy at the end and came running all ready to play. 😂
All these topics have been going off on Threads too. It is exhausting. At this point, I’m like it would make more sense to just make a list of famous men who haven’t sexually assaulted women because so many of them have.
Dear god I would become the Joker if I had to go through what happened to Freeman….. that’s the stuff of psychological horror right there
The crimes of Wade Wilson are so heinous and gratuitous (plus the svastika tattoo), I dont understand how people are "thirsting" about him in public. His victims' loved ones are also on Tiktok, let's keep it to the group chats ladies.
So much tea in this one.
I figure since you're bringing up the m/m romance discussion, as a gay man I have no issue with people reading whatever they want. For me I do start side eye an author that is a cis het woman publicly using she/her pronouns who writes exclusively m/m romance and has for years with multiple series. It starts to feel just a little weird to me, especially when some of them are incredibly taboo and feeding into weird power dynamics and stuff. Again I am not out here thinking it's morally reprehensible but when all a cis woman writes is basically male/male erotica it does feel like it is being fetishized. But as usual with the internet there is nuance to the discussion, like some of the other commenters on here mentioning it's a way for people to explore their identity and gender expression and that's amazing, so it is always nice to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Exactly this.
First story is such a breech of trust! Waiting to see how it all resolves. Mainly commenting on the murderer story: we have got to do better in this world! Not as readers, but as people. It is one thing to find out someone whose work you loved is an asshat (but also, famous people should not have so much power!) but to make a horrible human being famous just because he reminds you of a character in a book is too many steps in the wrong direction of a downward spiral to hell (metaphorically speaking, of course). It is all the worst parts of patriarchy, cruelty, devaluing of life and humanity, stupidity, and misogyny. And we are choosing this! We need to be better, do better and think more...
Thank you for bringing up Bunny being gross about the murderer, especially since she tried to backtrack about it when she was called out. She (or her lawyerJanet) might try and copywrite strike you, get the video taken down, or send you a cease and dismiss because that's her MO when someone says something about her that she doesn't like.
I’m having so many feelings about the Neil Gaiman stuff. He has long been one of my favorite authors, and initially I didn’t want to believe the allegations because the podcast that broke the story is run by Boris Johnson’s sister and she is well known as a TERF, and Gaiman is very vocally in support of LGBTQ rights. But, it’s also true that a 21 year old employee of a much older and famous man is never going to be the person in a position of power and that’s a bad dynamic for giving real consent. “They’re humans and they’re men pretty much sums it up.” 😢 (too be clear, I believe the women, I’m just sad about it all and I will not be listening to the podcast because of who runs it)
That's my take about Boris Johnson's sister. There's a certain subset of podcasters who use it for gotcha. They are no Charlotte Lennox.
You've pretty much summed up my feelings on it. I used to say he was my favourite author. No longer. I believe the women. He admitted to having "relationships" with them and that's enough admission to me. In at least the one instance he was literally her employer and providing her housing and much older than her. The power imbalance there is all kinds of gross. But I will also not be listening to the actual pod because I won't be letting my queer ears contribute to the pockets of a Terf turd.
When I started reading MM romances, I thought myself to be a straight woman, but as I kept picking up and reading different MM books, I discovered that was neither straight, nor strictly a woman ( I am nb). I feel those books were more open in talking about consent, identity and hetero normative gender roles and also misogyny. I am grateful to the authors of the genre for making these issues understandable to a person like me, who grew up in a very conservative and homophobic, transphobic family and also helped me understand myself better.
i get so annoyed with the mlm conversation every time it comes around. how many people have to be outed for people to finally get the message to mind their business?!?!? especially when it comes to female authors because it forgets that romance in general is dominated by afab people so of course it extends. the only issue is that one lady who loved red white and royal blue but not one last stop because it was "gross" but that lady was just a weirdo
I think the thing that gets me about the cis straight women reading mlm is two things: 1) things that that wretched book a little life is trauma porn and 2) why are there not equivalent sapphic romances? This feels like it’s a thing that needs to be introspected personally by readers and this introspection should be encouraged
That podcast with the Gaiman allegations is an absolute mess - so much stuff that doesn't have a connection to the allegations is thrown into the mix, including "experts" with questionsble credentials, never mind the personal ideology Johnson. That said: even IF these young ladies initially said yes, they may have felt no, and not in a position to actually verbalise it.
Even IF they said yes and felt yes, it is still sleazy and questionable behaviour on Gaiman's part. It's very easy to NOT use your position of power over significantly younger women in order to have sex with them. Many people manage to NOT abuse their position of power to do this ALL THE TIME. Perhaps take some instructions from them, Neil, yeah?
For the whole m/m romance thing, I feel like I can kinda give some sort of insight on it as a lesbian (though limited)
For me, I really do not mind when straight people read gay/sapphic romances because everyone has their reasons and as long as none of them are weird (like fetishising for example) its all great in my book.
HOWEVER, there is a certain type of 'straight girlie' that will only read m/m romance, idolise it and possibly even fetishise it while simultaneously shitting on lesbians and sapphics. For that specific type, it seems like their allyship begins and ends with an m/m romance book. Its not all ofc, but theres definitely enough to be notable and to be wary of.
That first topic has me flabbergasted because how do you do that to someone? The alleged theft is looking very apparent but idk, im not a lawyer but like run Sis her coins 🧐
Second Topic: 🤨😒🙄 the glorifying and sexualizing of murders and criminals is so gross. Keep that weird mess between the pages. And if you cannot keep it there maybe you shouldn't be reading it because you have trouble separating reality from fiction.
**Also I feel seen because I CANNOT with flies or gnats.
I don't have anything really to add to women reading mlm.
And I just feel like there's going to be so many people who defend him regardless because of who he is. I've never read his stuff but I have watched movies and shows based on things he has written.
Regardless if anything illegal happened or not, Neil Gaiman has lost my respect. Can't even be original, just another sleazy guy targeting young women.
Same. At the bare minimum, it makes his “advocacy” seem like a front. It’s not very feminist to coerce your 40 years younger female employees into a relationship, regardless of consent. Another nasty old man.
Especially teen girls... He's so typical.
@@jemsilver totally, you should listen to that podcast. It's gross. The girls passed out from pain…
I can’t wrap my mind around the fact that Tracy Wolf’s books aren’t hers. I feel so bad for the original author of those books. What an absolute soul crushing nightmare, seriously. Hopefully she will receive the justice she’s owed. That’s horrible. As far as cis women reading BL, I totally get it lol. I HATE with ALL THE CAPITALS ON, heterosexuality romance books. It’s absolutely the power dynamic that kills it for me. I can’t stand the gross “protecting a little lady” or like “delicate damsel in distress” crap. I pick lgbtq romance 100% of the time.
Was it actually ruled in court that it had been proven that the books weren't hers? Or are we just hitching the cart a little before the horse, here? 🤔 (genuine question, this is the first I'm hearing of this at all)
Part of what BL and other M|M fiction created by females for females was strongly criticized for was essentially just creating M|M relationships that did all those same exact things as M|F romance fiction does just with one guy treating another guy in those exact ways, though. But...of course....not all BL or other M|M fiction created by and/or for females is the same. Much like not all fiction by any other authors in any other genre is not all always exactly the same, regardless of what is or isn't the most popular or most heavily saturated or such.
Nigel was just vibing lol, he looked at the camera and was like idc what u got going on but I’m chilling
The Neil Gaiman allegations bother me because of the age gap and the fact that she was his kid's nanny. How can you claim that you had consent when the person you're talking about is also reliant on you for their livelihood? No. That's not okay. I'm done with Neil Gaiman.
This is someone who would listen to the audiobooks for American Gods and Norse Mythology to fall asleep. I took his Masterclass on writing. I was in the process of ordering signed collector's editions of his books.
Same. Disgusting.
Plus the nanny I assume was a live-in nanny, so her boos, but also the person providing her room and board.
From live-tweeted threads from folks who listened to the whole podcast, it looks like she was a friend of his wife's (the marriage was open) which...changes the dynamic.
We can have a conversation about power dynamics and properly negotiated BDSM, but in both cases, based on the live-tweet threads of the podcast, the women seem to have *repeatedly and enthusiastically said that the sex was consensual and said that for YEARS* before they were sought out by a...TERF-run podcast pushing "all BDSM is abuse and can not be consented to" rhetoric.
As a survivor of SA myself and on such a serious subject matter, I am concerned by all the red flags and withholding forming a solid opinion for more information.
@@BennetRenard As a polyamorous person and also a survivor of SA, I see your point. I think where I'm getting stuck is the expectation that if you're hired or asked to do a job, there really shouldn't be a sexual component of that relationship. You're paying someone to take care of your kid, why are you seeking out a sexual relationship with that person? I get trusting that person because she's a friend of your wife, but the minute money came into play there should have been professional boundaries in place.
I once heard advice that writers would be better served to skip getting an agent and instead hire an IP attorney on retainer. The more I hear about shenanigans, theft, abuse, and now AI, in publishing, the more I think that's good advice.
45 versions?!? i have no words. I hope she gets her $. and ppl thirsting for an actual murderer? i agree with your thoughts. that needs to stop. I 100% support you recording whatever you want! gotta protect your mind!!!
“Ooh, what does this say about me, uh-oh-THERES THE GNAT!” 😂😂😂😂
25:30 for anyone who wants the timestamp
"Some things belong on paper, others in life. It's a blessed fool who can't tell the difference." I feel like this quote perfectly sums up the whole murderer situation.
Also, I usually ship characters based on their chemistry, not gender.
You’re too funny for me to watch at work, I just ugly laughed at “what are you doing in my black ass home?!” And the war against the gnat
Wow, I just took a look at everything for this copyright infringement and I feel that Tracy Wollf and her agent have a lot of explaining to do. That poor author. She was told to resubmit her manuscript in seven years and the first book in the Crave series came out in 2021.
I'm of the WILD opinion that anyone can read or write whatever they want, in or out of whatever demographic they wish to.
As someone working on their own book this is my worst nightmare. Even worse than never seeing your work published, is someone else getting to publish your work
So repulsed by the Neil Gaiman story, like even if it was "consensual", and that if is doing a lot of heavy lifting, a 61 yo man having a sexual relationship with a 21 yo is just wrong. And this is so disappointing because I was a big fan of many of his works.
"Oh, what does this say about me?" That means therapy and a big arse reality check, thank youuuu... I see this happen a lot with biker gangs and women thinking they're hot and nope, they're extremely abusive in every which way but women watching Sons of Anarchy and reading those biker romance books DO NOT seem to get it.
As to reading m/m romance as a 50+ brown cishet woman, I love romance and I've only recently started reading diversely, like, at all. I would mostly read trad pub books until a few years ago when I got KU and started watching booktube. So now I actively look for own voices rep in both m/m, and if I find an author I like, I read more from them. That's not to say I don't read m/m from cishet presenting women. I know not everyone divulges their identity for fear of terrible people being terrible.
I feel like the most important thing we can do as readers is when we find an own voices book and we enjoyed the experience, we should write a review and rate it well so others can find it too. The algorithms rule supreme.
Also, look inside yourself occasionally and examine why you are reading x or y. And if you don't like the answer, try reading something a little different.
I love me a dark romance but some readers of the genre really need to go outside and touch at least one (1) blade of grass.
Maybe some of them are discovering some cnc, knifeplay, etc k!nks they want to explore but unfortunately - much like we saw with Fifty Shades and the BDSM community - I worry theyre going to try and explore these things with people who have no business being in that role.
Thanks for the overview on Neil Gaiman. Won’t be reading any of his books now. This is why I’m so wary to read from established white male authors.
hi Jess! Thanks for your videos as always, man that lawsuit is awful. It's one of my biggest fear as an aspiring author. On another note, did you add CC? I wanted to enable it because I need it but there was only automatic subtitles. I hope they weren't deleted cause I know they take a lot of work, but if you haven't had time to put them up yet, maybe remove the [CC] in the title? Just so it's not a surprise for Deaf/deaf/HoH people. Thanks a lot for your work to caption your videos, it's a huge help
The Neil Gaiman story is upsetting but sadly not surprising. I listened to the podcast and after hearing these women’s stories in their own voices, it leaves no doubt in my head that he was in the wrong. Gross 🤮
You out here telling these Karen's they need to quit their thirst shit because it's WEIRD (and wrong) has me living lol. 🤣 HARD AGREE! 💜
The whisper network has been on Neil Gaiman's behind for years in SF/F circles. I've been around him in person many times and I'm not surprised his creeper ways have come to light finally.
I wish more ppl knew earlier… it might have kept his victims safe if more people had known.
I’ve only heard glowing things about Gaiman and have had his books recommended to me many times over. I don’t know that I’ll feel open to reading them until after he’s in the ground.
My view of reading MLM for Hetro Cis Women is that it's harmless. If anything it diversivies the experiences and people on booktok gatekeeping don't realize how that's sounding. It's as if someone said "You're fetishizing BIPOC people by reading POC romances". Which... isn't the case. I would argue the people gatekeeping it and saying "you're all weird for reading this as you're cis straight women" are objectifying the MLM romances which is.... eh? Weird? I'm Ace Demiromantic and Agender-Fem Fluid btw and while I would love to see myself in more books, I enjoy reading about just people being human. Love is part of humanity. Are you being foyeristic if you happen to look and your two gay friends who happen to be a couple are being sweet to each other in the restraunt? You're a part of their lives as much they are part of yours. Reading about the human experience is kinda like that but happened to be MLM romance. I don't get why the hell this has been such a big deal for YEARS. So it's like.... Why? Am I not allowed to enjoy Monster Romances now just because I can't identify being a Monster F*cker due to being Ace? (I guess you can say that My brain is doing the whole "are the Allos Okay?" but I digress)
The Neil Gaiman situation is heartbreaking for those who spoke up about it. coercion is a thing, and those who think it's not a form of SA don't know the true depths of issues coercion can do to a person mentally. It's almost a form of gaslighting but different. That's why the Powerimbalance thing is a extreamly important factor to it all. The fact that even his ex-wife mentioned something in solidarity has me thinking Scarlet and the 2005 allegation may be more true than some people think. I haven't personally read anything that was written by Neil Gaiman myself but I was planning to due to being curious, but now.... I think I may just stick to go full speed ahead in reading Terry Prachett if I'm reading the older classics of Fantasy (which I'm slowly working through).
About the murderer segment - honestly I'm not surprised people are thirsting after murderers. There has been many situations where people thirst after serial killers and send their adoring letters.
It's messed up to put it simply, but not the first time this has happened. Well...maybe except comparing them to book characters which IS something new to me.
I just got out of the shower, feeling refreshed and ready for my morning. Thanks for blessing us with a video 🙌♥️ impeccable timing
I am in the process of revising a draft of an epic high fantasy novel i wrote and that story about the agent stealing her concept and work makes me ill ugh! So many red flags in the things the agent asked for. That’s heartbreaking
Thank you so much for inserting Nigel content because I wasn't okay by the end of this
I have a lot of thoughts about all the topics you covered, but a lot of your comments (both in the video and from other people) have said a lot of them. However!! I do like these condensed versions of book-related drama videos. I stay away from the online world quite a bit, because I don't want to take the time to deal with it. Fully understand why you would not want to take the time to make full-length videos, especially when so many others are already doing it!! Love your channel so far, looking forward to the next one.
I read the first Crave book and liked it. I got halfway through the second and stopped because I hated where it was headed. I did read her newer one, Sweet Nightmare, because it was free and I was curious, but that one was a hot mess. Either she forgot how to write a consistent story or it wasn't edited. So, I could totally see it.
As far as reading mm romance goes, I read them because I don't have to find the male characters relatable. I don't like many female protagonists, that's just me. When I read them, I don't have to worry about my body issues or why I can't find a guy like that, what's wrong with me, blah, blah . . . I can just enjoy their journey. I also discovered, while reading them, that I'm demi. So, you can also learn things about myself, as well.
Oh my goodness! Yeah, I heard all about that lawsuit recently too. It's pretty thick evidence. If it's true then I wouldn't be too surprised considering this stuff happens all the time. Especially in trad publishing. Disgusting behavior.
That murderer thing is so disgusting too. It's foul.
People are so mentally unwell.
This reminds me of the other booktok incident that we all remember.
Nasty af. 🤢🤢🤢
Regarding the M/M romances, I prefer them over hetero-romances, mostly because there is a greater chance to see a relationship dynamic that's between people on equal footing. However, lately I've found that most novels of this genre (often written by ladies) tend to replicate heteronormative stories, with a character taking the role of the woman, and one of the man. Also, much of the currently trendy toxicity is fairly present in this literature. This all has contributed to me leaving this genre and seeking for other genres.
•My heart hearts on this plagiarism. We had a bad publisher but not that bad.
•I grew up with 2 gay guys in HS/college as my best friends. Why wouldn’t I enjoy a MM romance?
I met a gay man, he’s a beautiful person and I also enjoy his MM books.
I’m old enough to choose my books!
Plus- I write PNR, consensual BDSM, so I don’t want to read that genre for fear someone might say- I stole their ideas!
I love MF, MM, FF love and I’m 70…
I've heard scummy things about Entangled before (though I don't remember the details). They're also the same publishers who run Red Tower
It’s giving Rip Tide
Oh my...is this 2024 or 2020?!?!?!
They have to go via the legal route because that's the only route that will see anything happen.
What messed me up about the first story is that agents usually list what kinds of books they want to sell. They have to be familiar with the market and know how to promote their chosen genres. So how was Kim gonna tell Freeman to write for a different genre/age group? Her (alleged) behavior was full of read flags. This is why you should research agents before picking one.
Based on that first story, it really sounds like the safest bet to not have a manuscript (allegedly) stolen is to Self-pub. Goddamn, I would be asking so many questions if I was asked to *rewrite* a manuscript 45 times.
Story 2, is exactly why we really need to normalize therapy even more.
Also I just realized, the Crave thing was the plot of a Scooby-Doo book I read as a kid (though there it was movie scripts, not novels). *Scooby Doo*. Congrats to the people who screwed over Lynn Freeman, you're on the level of a cartoon villain
On the Crave topic I have to say I was bummed in part because I did love Crave, like the first book, but dnf’ed the second book around the 100 page mark because I knew where the story was going and it felt really cheap (and according to reviews, the books get worse and worse as the series goes on.)
Publishing Jessica has a nice ring to it!
I’m not excusing the behavior just making a note. I am pretty deep in the bike tok videos.
So when someone says that want to be a “backpack” it means they want to be the person behind the person driving the motorcycle. That’s what the term means.
I still think it’s disturbing that people are continuously commenting on kid’s profiles and saying stuff like that. However, to be fair, what I’ve noticed is that a lot of the time people don’t disclose their ages (which can’t even blame them) and so if someone is in full motorcycle gear then it’s hard to even tell if they’re an adult or not. People should just be respectful no matter what.
Every so often that fetishization discourse comes around again and I always just have to let out a deep sigh and let my head thump on a table. A lot of the criticism of women reading or writing m/m romance involves a lot of assuming that you (general you) know more about that person than they know about themselves. Are there people who engage with m/m romance in a not so great way? Yes, of course there are, but if you assume that every person you perceive to be a cis, hetero woman is engaging with m/m romance or relationships in those ways, that sure is a take. I liked what the TikTok clip said about people approaching with respect and I think that's kind what it comes down to. Rather than making the blanket statement that completely misses any nuance, you see how the individual is approaching the m/m romance, then go from there. (All I can think as I type is 'only a Sith deals in absolutes'.)
I definitely remember eyeing the Crave book series for the book covers and knew they were doing well. Thats crazzyyyyy. Ayo the drama never ends. 😂😂😂
the gnat is a paid actor for sure hahaaha
That gnat interlude had me weakkkkkkk
I'm saddened by the Gaiman news, I was a huge fan (bought multiple copies of American Gods and Anasazi Boys. I even have a quote tattooed), but I learned my lesson long ago that authors/celebrities are STRANGERS, not friends. He, like many others, will remain in my fictional graveyard never to see a dime or attention from me again.
This reminds me of how the booktok community thirsted over that one hockey player so much his wife was uncomfortable about it and they gave her a hard time????? Gross.
I think the conversation about Women reading and/or writing M|M fiction is coming back up again, now, because when the issue came up before some 10 to 20 years ago now[ or so] it pretty much concluded ultimately with many people essentially being shamed out reading too much M|M fiction entirely....unless it was specifically written by Men / for Men. Because the general public consensus was that it was too fetish-y and inappropriate for Women to read/write M|M fiction that was created for Women and that M|M fiction by Women for Women was contributing to the lack of visibility/etcetera for M|M fiction by Men for Men. However, many of the people who were originally targeted for reading/writing M|M fiction by Women for Women are no longer teens or young adults, we're full on adults now and can speak for ourselves as to why we read or wrote it(rather than other people speculating as to why from more outside perspectives). Plus, conversations have been evolving over the years about whether or not Queer/LGBTQ+ stories can or should only be created and/or enjoyed just by and for Queer/LGBTQ+ persons themselves only or by/for everyone[ much the same as Hetero &/or General fiction is or can-be]-as well as conversations regarding books being able to serve more than just one function, like not all books necessarily needing to exist to like positively educate or accurately represent various things and it actually being okay for even the same stories to serve completely different purposes or functions for different readers' experiences with reading them, and so on. So I think it's kind of just natural that this conversation too would circle back around and be re-examined through newer lenses as well.
Besides, there is nothing new under the sun, and those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it-and things like that.
Buut, maybe that's just me, idkk. 🤔🤷🤷♀️🤷🏻♂️ 😊
((That being said, though, stereotyping guys in M|M relationships and their relationships or such and/or acting crazy like all real or fictional males (especially ones in M|M relationships) somehow exist as objects to be fawned &/or drooled over by straight gals even if/when encountered out "in the wild" so-to-speak definitely was a thing which also did happen sometimes and is a valid problem/concern. But I don't think M|M fiction being read or written by and/or for women by itself is really the root cause if that and there are plenty of gals who read or write M|M fiction who aren't guilty of those things too. So I think some of the criticism and/or other concerns does come from valid places, I just don't think that fact by itself alone entirely negates or overrules any or all other more positive factors completely nor necessarily means that gals writing and/or reading M|M fiction altogether shouldn't ever be done at all either.))
Also, YES, to pretty much everything in the tiktok included in this video talking about it. too!. 😊💖💖
( also, even if a woman isn't distancing themself from sexual or other trauma related to het relationships while reading/writing romance ... they may still be distancing themself from gendered expectations that are often put on women and girls to look/behave/etcetera certain ways either in general and/or specifically within relationships romantic or sexual or otherwise, too. )
Fiction can serve many different purposes for many different reasons for many different persons. And should actually be okay.🙂🤍💜🩶
I've read enough of Neil Gaiman's books to get the impression that he's not a nice guy. The allegations are disappointing, but not surprising.
The podcast definitely has Terf vibes, so it can be hard to take the intentions of the podcasters seriously, but two women have come forward for sure one of them underage when she met Gaiman, which lake, even if they didn't sleep together until she was of age is still really unethical. Same thing with sleeping with an employee it may not have been illegal, there may or may not have been assault we don't know at this point it's really unclear, but either way it's not good that he slept with someone he had power over on multiple Avenues
And keep in mind 18 is still a teen 😬
I didn't enjoy the Crave books. I couldn't tell if they wanted to be taken seriously as Twilight-inspo books OR if they were meant to be parody. The MC and other characters kept making Twilight references, sometimes cracking weird jokes, which was a bit annoying. I read all 86 pages of the court document, and I do think there are some valid points Freeman made. I do feel some level of project sharing happened here because so many elements are similar. The odds of them both writing YA characters who go from San Diego to Anchorage Alaska to a secret supernatural school..and similar major plot lines? It's low. Yes, those elements are common among YA and supernatural books, but how different are the books? Where do they deviate in addition to being the same? THAT is what I'd like to see. Because if most of the stories aren't different, that isn't common. Two writers rarely write the exact same story. The names being exactly the same, for example, is kind of weird and not likely to happen in most cases, but I think Freeman will have a hard time proving some of the examples she gave (side-by-side, line-by-line) as they are quite vague and, in some instances, not really all that similar. Some are! But the courts are going to take into account HOW MUCH is similar. Words and phrases and concepts alone aren't protected under copyright. Nor are tropes or themes or pacing. But if she can show that it all compounds and doesn't deviate much from her versions of the story, then she might be able to win. So, I'm curious about whether she has more examples than listed in the document
Okay, but, "tall, dark, and [insert-word]" is a very well known and often overused cliche-not a particularly distinct or original turn of phrase.
Same with basically anything about butterflies or knots or somersaults being in someone's stomach and/or about someone's heart racing or beating a mile a minute in their chest and such.
The long-lost royal heir or magical-power-baby/chosen one and such type trope is also extremely commonly used in so many things.
As is tragic causal backstories involving the deaths of parents or other parental figure / legal guardian and such, and car accidents or murdered by the bigbad are extremely common methods of killing characters off in fiction too.
You could absolutely have all of those in common even without any plagiarism whatsoever.
Obviously, the evidence submitted in court will need to somehow reliably prove that the allegedly plagiarized manuscript actually existed first and was indeed put through that many revisions at the agent's behest and all of those other claims, too.
We've gone to far. We need to bring shame back.
never fails to amuse me how nigel looks like he is wearing a white turtleneck
I cackled at “raggedy publishing.” 🤣 It is pretty raggedy right now!
By the time I was reading fanfiction I knew I wasn’t straight, but it’s been 10 years now and how interesting it is that I’m a man now… a gay man. Even with that I am still sometimes frustrated that the mlm books are written by women, but I think because they spent time writing fanfiction they are often better at writing than the gay men who are writing. Except the trans men.
I listened to the podcast, believe the women, but I also believe that he thought consent had been obtained.
The thing about this kind of sex, it really requires a lot of ongoing consent and a lot of talking.
@@mcthurman8822One of them was a teen girl... Teens can't consent to old men.
Tried reading the first crave book. It gave me twilight vibes and had to put it down.
The scam that is traditional publishing, lol.
21:08 my thoughts: I’m so glad I sold all my crave books BEFORE this came out!!! And i hope the original author wins so much money
thanks for always keeping us up to date. all but like one of these stories directly relate to romancelandia so lawd do we need to get things together! messy!
If you do lighter stuff, there's always Sticker Mule ruining their business based on a badly unadvised email. I know you're not on threads but it's everywhere there. The book community is roasting them.
If those alligations are true I feel so bad for that author. I would be crushed beyond measure. I am working on several stories and its not easy by any means. I hope she gets her justice.
Ugh 😩 I’ve been waiting to see you pop up in my feed with some book communiTEA
The Neil Gaiman of it all is why I’ve switched away from reading cis-het whyte men. They never fail to disappoint.
I dnf Crave bc it was so much like Twilight. I could have just read Twilight. And I hope Freemen gets everything she wants and gets her Manuscript back.
I feel like people should read whatever they want!
Judging people on what they read based on their gender is just too much ..
All I am going to say on the Gaiman matter, _speaking as a SA survivor myself,_ after reading through threads live-tweeted by people who listened to the whole podcast...I have several questions and concerns about the veracity of what the podcast presents.
We can have a conversation about power dynamics and properly negotiated BDSM, but in both cases, *the women repeatedly and enthusiastically said that the sex was consensual and said that for YEARS* before they were sought out by a...TERF-run podcast pushing "all BDSM is abuse and can not be consented to" rhetoric.
It makes me pause and withhold forming a solid opinion until there is more information.
Becasue as of right now, to me it looks like the podcast is manipulating stories of consensual, if under-negotiated, kink into SA allegations. And the article the podcast wrote is a gross misrepresentation of even what THEY present on air and contains outright lies such as claiming they have statements from Gaiman when they don't.
For such a serious subject matter, I am concerned by all the red flags.
This is my take so far as well.
Thanks for the video. I am going to comment on the 3rd story. It has to do with money. Fanfiction with M/M storylines were a thing since the 70's. I am old but that is what I've been told. For clarity I prefer why chose books. I think the problems come when people realize how much money is being spent or acquired for the books. Feelings have a place in it but it is mostly a money thing. If weren't selling m/m romance weren't selling would there be a conversation at all. Another point to make is that all stories have their tropes, romances written in 70's and 80's had the male lead either spanking or slapping the female lead. It took years to write that mess out of romance. For people who don't like the direction m/m romance is going, work on getting better writers. I know it is easier said that done, but it can happen. I agree with the person who said being respectful is important.
I read the first book in the Crave series. I get why it is called this generations's Twilight. It's easy to read, but it's not something I'd say is a must-read. The story isn't the same though. I might try book 2 because I feel there is more to the story than was revealed in the first book. I'm not invested in the relationship because I don't understand why the characters are really drawn to each other-the FMC to the MMC to be exact. He wasn't very nice to her in a way that would make him attractive and then he was suddenly into her. Even then, it's giving Edward-stay away from me for your own good, I'm not right for you vibes. Also, there are things that her family aren't telling her which could keep her alive/safe and it irked me when readng. Everyone knows what the school really is for except her. My friend read book 2 and said it was better, so I'll give it a try.
I really hope the truth comes out-in terms of the lawsuit and NG allegations.
I’m in the middle of reading the first book 😳😬 yikes that sucks. Now I feel guilty for liking the book. I have a preference for middle grade and young adult novels.
The saga of the gnat was the highlight of this video 🤣 💀