That's how you're supposed to do it. Never heard of anyone zeroing in a gun offhand. The whole purpose of zeroing the gun it to take out any human error. Which is why guns are sighted in Ransom Rests.
Do a rifle with a bench too! Silly not to use a bench and take all human factors out. Zero doesn't care after if you can't hit the target, that's a shooter problem after finding zero.
i just cowitness to my irons and make sure im hitting center on the target. another reason you should always have backup irons. for zeroing your dot but also so you can visually see if you lost zero
I stubbornly stuck to a traditional approach, Kimber 1911 over iron sights, needing to use reading glasses exacerbated the difficulty of achieving good results. I now run a 5” M&P CORE with a Holosun 507 c with green reticle, I sighted the optic independently of the irons and for the first time in a long time I’m managing high “B” grade and enjoying my shooting more whilst using only safety glasses and not needing my reading glasses 👌
Not a bad distance to zero with either, we like ten cause it is a little easier and then we confrim windage at distance for those long shots at USPSA matches.
I ran out of travel on a Ruger Mark IV 22/45 when using a Vortex Venom. Required a 1 degree shim, seemed pretty standard when I asked Tandemkross in regards to their Shadow mount. Guess it's all just too flat without the shim.
I have a Glock 43X MOS and rather then going with the Holosun 507K, I decided to go with a Primary Arms Micro Reflex Red dot. I don’t nor was I recommended to put I plate under it. I have it mounted and it’s as flush as possible with zero play and zero daylight under, front or back. Thoughts??
On that particular Glock what you did is correct. Compact and Full-size Glock MOS pistols use a plate system but the subcompacts like you have are direct-mount for very specific red dots like the one you have.
If you zero at 25, the worst offset at closer distances will be less than 1". If you zero at 10, your offset at 25 will be around 6". That, plus shooter error, can put you off the chart. At 25, your off zero shots will be more obvious than at 10. If you can't get decent groups at 25 yards, know that limitation in a self defence situation. There is an attorney attached to every shot, especially missed shots. Seems obvious, but watching cops doing multi-mag dumps and missing worst than 95% of the shots show that they are taking shots way outside their actual skill level, making their gun a noise maker, only...
On the topic of “red dots not running out of adjustment” and not seeing it happen… I wish you could see my gun lmao! Have a holosun on my FN502 and I can assure you it won’t adjust any further down to get a zero where I want it! So it’s def gonna take a shim of some sort to get it lower!
I don't have a red dot yet but thinking about putting one on my Glock 48 MOS. I'm still somewhat confused on which direction to turn the elevation and windage adjustment screws. Lets say you put the red dot on the center of the target and shoot a three shot group that hits 4 inches to the right and 4 inches high. Some videos say that you would turn the windage screw right to move the dot right and turn the elevation screw in the up direction to move the dat up. Then I saw a video that says to move the dot to the group you would do the opposite instead of turning the windage screw to the right you would turn it in the left direction and instead of turning the elevation screw in the up direction you would turn it in the down direction. So I'm totally lost on what to do HELP!!
When you adjust your turrets/screws, always adjust as though you are moving your group on paper. Never adjust thinking about the physical direction the reticle moves inside the optic. So, in your hypothetical scenario of shooting high and right, you would adjust your turrets/screws in the "Down" and "Left" directions.Hope this helps! - Jimmy H jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
Dot sighting simplified. Point Of Aim (POA is where your dot appears on the target). Point Of Impact (POI is where the bullet hole on target is located). Adjustments clicks may be described in 1 minute of angle. This maths out to 1 tenth of an inch at a distance of 10 yards. Regardless of zeroing by human fire or mechanical fire (ransom machine, etc), apply the math. Your dot sight instructions should describe which direction to turn. Mine describes from POI, so my adjustment is to move the hole to the dot/POA/target center. So, in the perfect world, I want to move 1 inch (hole to center of target at 10 yards), the adjustment is 10 clicks. One tenth of an inch is roughly 1/4 the width of a 9mm casing. Personally, I adjust less than the math number, then shoot again. Using this method, I adjust until it's gone too far, then adjust back.
@@vortexedge4492 I agree not accurate at all. I put a laser boresight on my drill and spun it and the dot was all over the place on the wall. The dot should remain still while being spun.
for new shooters too. Right handed shooters will always shoot low left and left handed users low right. this is due to bad grip and flinching or anticipating recoil. DO NOT ZERO YOUR SIGHTS TO THAT lol
Why would anyone zero in a gun offhand? The entire purpose is to make the gun accurate TAKING OUT any human error. This is not practice time. It's to ensure that the gun is as accurate as it can possibly be. Never have I seen anyone zeroing in a rifle or handgun standing off hand. Makes "zero" sense....no pun intended.
Not everyone has access to those items on the range, and we like to do this off-hand as we can see if we are inputting anything into the gun. It's also a self assement to see those errors that you had mentioned that we create as shooters.
@@vortexedge4492 I get that with regards to not having a ransom rest or the proper equipment, you could find something to rest on.....The issue is this...let's say for example you are given a gun that's been zeroed in by an expert with a ransom rest. (Pretend it's a Les Baer Premier! LOL) And now you buy that gun thinking it needs to be zeroed. (remember, it's already been zeroed) Now you go to the range and YOU (not the gun) consistently shoots left, so you make the adjustments. You've taken a gun and changed the zero based on HUMAN ERROR. Maybe you have a hitch and ALWAYS shoot left, then I guess that's good but the point is you took a zeroed in gun and now changed the sights to fit in with YOUR poor technique.
@@vortexedge4492 It just seems logical that if you're zeroing in a gun offhand, you could be making the gun worse or taking it further from zero. Isn't the entire point of zeroing a gun so that hypothetically speaking in a perfect world, using the proper equipment done by experts, the gun should repeat shooting dead center every single shot, again, using a ransom rest and an expert shooter. I just don't see any sense in zeroing a gun offhand when there is so much room for human error. I can guarantee you that companies like Wilson Combat and Les Baer have EVER zeroed a gun off hand for sale. There's a reason why.
We see it both ways, but if someone is carrying this gun for personal protection, they need to be accountable for all of their rounds and if the gun is not zeroed to them and to someone else, that could leave the doors open for liability on their behalf. This would also be less desireable in competive shooting as well as you would be consistently off while in competition which would affect your results on the leader board. Yes in a perfect world, we want the gun to be technically zeroed to factory specifications, but we all know that we humans are far from perfect. 🇺🇸
@@vortexedge4492 I see your point, but this is why we go to the range and PRACTICE ....isn't it? As I said, the entire purpose behind zeroing a gun is to make THE GUN (not the person) as accurate as it can mechanically be. It's the exact reason why they use Ransom Rests to Zero guns, they want to take out as much of human error as possible. It seems as though what you're describing is simply, buying a gun, and then shooting it and adjusting it to fit your shooting ability, well....we all do that! That's not zeroing in a gun. That's simply adjusting sights until you improve as a shooter. Again, my point is ZEROING a gun is designed to make THE GUN the most accurate it can mechanically be. If it was proper to do what you say to "zero" a gun, all the top manufacturers would stop using Ransom Rest and just slap sights on the gun and send it out. There'd be no reason for them to zero a gun for sale if someone is simply going to take it out of zero. I just think we are talking about two different things. You are adjusting the sights based on one's shooting ability to correct for improper technique. We all do what you're describing here. I shoot off hand and make adjustments all the time, but that's not called zeroing. I could buy a Les Baer GUARANTEED to shoot 1/2" at 50 yds. The gun IS zeroed when I buy it. I then make the adjustments to fit in with my inability to shoot perfect (as no human can). Again, two completely different things. I agree with everything you say regarding responsibility and so on. I just think the difference is zeroing by definition is all about the gun and making the gun as accurate as possible. We all adjust sights to help us hit the target. We can also simply agree to disagree. FWIW, this is just friendly debate.
If available, bore sighting is always a great start. Unlikely you're going to find a handgun that allows you to get a bore sight though. Bore sighting is great for getting a scope that's brand new to a certain gun to at least hit near the bulls-eye when you go to take first shots. It avoids the off-chance that your scope is so far off from the gun that you're not even hitting the paper down range which would make it nearly impossible to know what correction to make with your turrets. Bore sighting really isn't as necessary when zeroing at closer distances because even if your scope is off a significant amount initially, it's probably still going to hit the paper somewhere because that big error hasn't had enough distance to proliferate into a complete miss of the target altogether. Since we're zeroing pistols at distances like, say, 10 yards, then it's unlikely you're ever going to be off so much you won't be able to see your impacts on paper and make the proper correction to your windage and elevation. Hope this helps! - Jimmy H jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
It is simple when applied, but some folks like explanations as to why they are doing something instead of just doing someone else tells them to do. This provides considerations to varying zero distances, offset, and others mentioned in this podcast.
@@miniaturefarmer464 Fortunately we can make our own decisions for our gear that we are running and give recommendations/explain our practices based on those findings.
@@miniaturefarmer464 That statement is absolutely ignorance...Can't believe you even fathomed to say it...A long range zero shooting shorter distance would be horrible. Why do you think BDC scopes were made...Are you zero'd at 500 yards or 1000 yards on any rifle you shoot???? IF you are you must not hunt at all...
That's actually a really common misconception that iron sights don't fail. On numerous occasions we've seen iron sights fail on customer guns that have been brought in for classes here. They can be drifted out of place over time and even come completely loose and fall off. Just because a piece of equipment doesn't rely on a battery doesn't mean it is infallible.
@@miniaturefarmer464 We can agree on that, and we are not disagreeing with learning how to shoot with irons, but things happen to equipment on either side of the field (dots v. irons), especially if you use them heavily.
Anyone who has no real grasp of how to zero their RDS and can’t sit through a video aimed at effectively zeroing your pistola’s red dot isn’t serious about their pistolcraft.
![🔴 ฟุตบอลแชมป์กีฬา 7HD แชมเปียน คัพ 2024 [รอบรองชนะเลิศ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zPm8ClLVhoE/mqdefault.jpg)
Definitely a podcast.
I prefer to sight in a red dot at 10 yards on a bench platform and afterward practicing off-hand.
That's how you're supposed to do it. Never heard of anyone zeroing in a gun offhand. The whole purpose of zeroing the gun it to take out any human error. Which is why guns are sighted in Ransom Rests.
Do a rifle with a bench too! Silly not to use a bench and take all human factors out. Zero doesn't care after if you can't hit the target, that's a shooter problem after finding zero.
I’m new to red dots and this is super informative guys 💯😎💪🏽
Happy to hear and we are always happy to help!
i just cowitness to my irons and make sure im hitting center on the target. another reason you should always have backup irons. for zeroing your dot but also so you can visually see if you lost zero
I stubbornly stuck to a traditional approach, Kimber 1911 over iron sights, needing to use reading glasses exacerbated the difficulty of achieving good results. I now run a 5” M&P CORE with a Holosun 507 c with green reticle, I sighted the optic independently of the irons and for the first time in a long time I’m managing high “B” grade and enjoying my shooting more whilst using only safety glasses and not needing my reading glasses 👌
That's great to hear you got some better results with a red dot. Happy shooting!
I do arm security at my church. I decided that 15 yards is the best zero, any thoughts?
Not a bad distance to zero with either, we like ten cause it is a little easier and then we confrim windage at distance for those long shots at USPSA matches.
Like always great information from vortex
I ran out of travel on a Ruger Mark IV 22/45 when using a Vortex Venom. Required a 1 degree shim, seemed pretty standard when I asked Tandemkross in regards to their Shadow mount. Guess it's all just too flat without the shim.
I have a Glock 43X MOS and rather then going with the Holosun 507K, I decided to go with a Primary Arms Micro Reflex Red dot. I don’t nor was I recommended to put I plate under it. I have it mounted and it’s as flush as possible with zero play and zero daylight under, front or back. Thoughts??
On that particular Glock what you did is correct. Compact and Full-size Glock MOS pistols use a plate system but the subcompacts like you have are direct-mount for very specific red dots like the one you have.
What do you recommend to use as your witness markings?
If you zero at 25, the worst offset at closer distances will be less than 1". If you zero at 10, your offset at 25 will be around 6". That, plus shooter error, can put you off the chart. At 25, your off zero shots will be more obvious than at 10.
If you can't get decent groups at 25 yards, know that limitation in a self defence situation. There is an attorney attached to every shot, especially missed shots. Seems obvious, but watching cops doing multi-mag dumps and missing worst than 95% of the shots show that they are taking shots way outside their actual skill level, making their gun a noise maker, only...
how do you lock elevation screw on a razor? its on a m&p 10 and the rear sight is to close to the back of the sight
Zeroing supported firing or unsupported?
Can go both ways. Most do it unsupported as this is how you will be using this setup in the wild.
On the topic of “red dots not running out of adjustment” and not seeing it happen… I wish you could see my gun lmao! Have a holosun on my FN502 and I can assure you it won’t adjust any further down to get a zero where I want it! So it’s def gonna take a shim of some sort to get it lower!
Yes, unfortunately, it does happen. I would head over to UMtactical.com as they should have what you need!
@@vortexedge4492 thank yah for the info!!
Happy to help!
I don't have a red dot yet but thinking about putting one on my Glock 48 MOS. I'm still somewhat confused on which direction to turn the elevation and windage adjustment screws. Lets say you put the red dot on the center of the target and shoot a three shot group that hits 4 inches to the right and 4 inches high.
Some videos say that you would turn the windage screw right to move the dot right and turn the elevation screw in the up direction to move the dat up. Then I saw a video that says to move the dot to the group you would do the opposite instead of turning the windage screw to the right you would turn it in the left direction and instead of turning the elevation screw in the up direction you would turn it in the down direction. So I'm totally lost on what to do HELP!!
When you adjust your turrets/screws, always adjust as though you are moving your group on paper. Never adjust thinking about the physical direction the reticle moves inside the optic. So, in your hypothetical scenario of shooting high and right, you would adjust your turrets/screws in the "Down" and "Left" directions.Hope this helps! - Jimmy H jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
Always adjust according to the group to point of aim. You have too think of it as moving your bullet's holes to the bullseye 🎯
👏👏👏
just went to 45ACP & 12GA ARs (PCCs), JRC AR & F'NBAR14 (Auto5+9) w ATIBP12 & an AR12. Will the sight fit on a JHP45?
If it has a Shield RMC footprint, it will fit.
Thanks Vortex
You're welcome!
Great video
Dot sighting simplified. Point Of Aim (POA is where your dot appears on the target). Point Of Impact (POI is where the bullet hole on target is located). Adjustments clicks may be described in 1 minute of angle. This maths out to 1 tenth of an inch at a distance of 10 yards. Regardless of zeroing by human fire or mechanical fire (ransom machine, etc), apply the math. Your dot sight instructions should describe which direction to turn. Mine describes from POI, so my adjustment is to move the hole to the dot/POA/target center. So, in the perfect world, I want to move 1 inch (hole to center of target at 10 yards), the adjustment is 10 clicks. One tenth of an inch is roughly 1/4 the width of a 9mm casing. Personally, I adjust less than the math number, then shoot again. Using this method, I adjust until it's gone too far, then adjust back.
On my way to the range while watching this, with a new M&P 5inch SRO setup.
NIce, have some fun too!
YES! That’s my all time favorite gun! Thanks for listening!
Verdict... I shoot the m&p better than my Zev OZ9.
Let your dot be a hair top of you front sight perfect shot tried it with max9 and was dead on at the range
🙌🙌🙌
17:30 i did this when i was new.
Thanks for an informative and thoughtful podcast. A suggestion: revolver shooting with/without a red dot. Snubbies (?)
I was told to zero with the ammo you're going to carry.
Laser bore sighters exist people
Not always accurate, and limited use when you can put the money to other things related to training.
@@vortexedge4492 I agree not accurate at all. I put a laser boresight on my drill and spun it and the dot was all over the place on the wall. The dot should remain still while being spun.
for new shooters too. Right handed shooters will always shoot low left and left handed users low right. this is due to bad grip and flinching or anticipating recoil. DO NOT ZERO YOUR SIGHTS TO THAT lol
Zeroed my defender with shooting a bullet
Why would anyone zero in a gun offhand? The entire purpose is to make the gun accurate TAKING OUT any human error. This is not practice time. It's to ensure that the gun is as accurate as it can possibly be. Never have I seen anyone zeroing in a rifle or handgun standing off hand. Makes "zero" sense....no pun intended.
Not everyone has access to those items on the range, and we like to do this off-hand as we can see if we are inputting anything into the gun. It's also a self assement to see those errors that you had mentioned that we create as shooters.
@@vortexedge4492 I get that with regards to not having a ransom rest or the proper equipment, you could find something to rest on.....The issue is this...let's say for example you are given a gun that's been zeroed in by an expert with a ransom rest. (Pretend it's a Les Baer Premier! LOL) And now you buy that gun thinking it needs to be zeroed. (remember, it's already been zeroed) Now you go to the range and YOU (not the gun) consistently shoots left, so you make the adjustments. You've taken a gun and changed the zero based on HUMAN ERROR. Maybe you have a hitch and ALWAYS shoot left, then I guess that's good but the point is you took a zeroed in gun and now changed the sights to fit in with YOUR poor technique.
@@vortexedge4492 It just seems logical that if you're zeroing in a gun offhand, you could be making the gun worse or taking it further from zero. Isn't the entire point of zeroing a gun so that hypothetically speaking in a perfect world, using the proper equipment done by experts, the gun should repeat shooting dead center every single shot, again, using a ransom rest and an expert shooter. I just don't see any sense in zeroing a gun offhand when there is so much room for human error. I can guarantee you that companies like Wilson Combat and Les Baer have EVER zeroed a gun off hand for sale. There's a reason why.
We see it both ways, but if someone is carrying this gun for personal protection, they need to be accountable for all of their rounds and if the gun is not zeroed to them and to someone else, that could leave the doors open for liability on their behalf.
This would also be less desireable in competive shooting as well as you would be consistently off while in competition which would affect your results on the leader board.
Yes in a perfect world, we want the gun to be technically zeroed to factory specifications, but we all know that we humans are far from perfect. 🇺🇸
@@vortexedge4492 I see your point, but this is why we go to the range and PRACTICE ....isn't it? As I said, the entire purpose behind zeroing a gun is to make THE GUN (not the person) as accurate as it can mechanically be. It's the exact reason why they use Ransom Rests to Zero guns, they want to take out as much of human error as possible. It seems as though what you're describing is simply, buying a gun, and then shooting it and adjusting it to fit your shooting ability, well....we all do that! That's not zeroing in a gun. That's simply adjusting sights until you improve as a shooter. Again, my point is ZEROING a gun is designed to make THE GUN the most accurate it can mechanically be. If it was proper to do what you say to "zero" a gun, all the top manufacturers would stop using Ransom Rest and just slap sights on the gun and send it out. There'd be no reason for them to zero a gun for sale if someone is simply going to take it out of zero. I just think we are talking about two different things. You are adjusting the sights based on one's shooting ability to correct for improper technique. We all do what you're describing here. I shoot off hand and make adjustments all the time, but that's not called zeroing. I could buy a Les Baer GUARANTEED to shoot 1/2" at 50 yds. The gun IS zeroed when I buy it. I then make the adjustments to fit in with my inability to shoot perfect (as no human can). Again, two completely different things. I agree with everything you say regarding responsibility and so on. I just think the difference is zeroing by definition is all about the gun and making the gun as accurate as possible. We all adjust sights to help us hit the target. We can also simply agree to disagree. FWIW, this is just friendly debate.
Irons forever.
Thanks.
You're welcome!
If a bore sight is available, does that work better than range shooting?
If available, bore sighting is always a great start. Unlikely you're going to find a handgun that allows you to get a bore sight though. Bore sighting is great for getting a scope that's brand new to a certain gun to at least hit near the bulls-eye when you go to take first shots. It avoids the off-chance that your scope is so far off from the gun that you're not even hitting the paper down range which would make it nearly impossible to know what correction to make with your turrets. Bore sighting really isn't as necessary when zeroing at closer distances because even if your scope is off a significant amount initially, it's probably still going to hit the paper somewhere because that big error hasn't had enough distance to proliferate into a complete miss of the target altogether. Since we're zeroing pistols at distances like, say, 10 yards, then it's unlikely you're ever going to be off so much you won't be able to see your impacts on paper and make the proper correction to your windage and elevation. Hope this helps! - Jimmy H jchamilton@vortexoptics.com
@@vortexedge4492 strikeman target dry fire are all bore sight laser
No one that's trying to zero a red dot is going to watch a freaking 38 minute video. C'mon folks. Here's the deal. Keep it simple
It is simple when applied, but some folks like explanations as to why they are doing something instead of just doing someone else tells them to do. This provides considerations to varying zero distances, offset, and others mentioned in this podcast.
These guys like to hear themselves talk. You always sight a gun in at the longest distance you anticipate using it for. End of story.
@@miniaturefarmer464 Fortunately we can make our own decisions for our gear that we are running and give recommendations/explain our practices based on those findings.
@@miniaturefarmer464 That statement is absolutely ignorance...Can't believe you even fathomed to say it...A long range zero shooting shorter distance would be horrible. Why do you think BDC scopes were made...Are you zero'd at 500 yards or 1000 yards on any rifle you shoot???? IF you are you must not hunt at all...
I’m watching for the knowledge transfer. I don’t care how long the video. If this makes me a better shooter in the long run, then what’s 38 minutes?
The red dots are nice until they fail. Iron sights don't fail. Learn to shoot with iron sights.
That's actually a really common misconception that iron sights don't fail. On numerous occasions we've seen iron sights fail on customer guns that have been brought in for classes here. They can be drifted out of place over time and even come completely loose and fall off. Just because a piece of equipment doesn't rely on a battery doesn't mean it is infallible.
@@vortexedge4492 Proper maintenance is also checking tension on all screws, pins and sight apparatus.
@@miniaturefarmer464 We can agree on that, and we are not disagreeing with learning how to shoot with irons, but things happen to equipment on either side of the field (dots v. irons), especially if you use them heavily.
Anyone who has no real grasp of how to zero their RDS and can’t sit through a video aimed at effectively zeroing your pistola’s red dot isn’t serious about their pistolcraft.
This damn video is too long. Ain’t worth the time.
Waste of time watching this
Thanks for the feedback.