This video is a bit more long-form than usual, If you are a regular viewer, maybe skip to about 00:07:00 - (though I hope you will watch it all anyway to help boost the video and allow it to reach and help more people) But many of you have seen me make this same point over and over in all of my printer review videos. And I've promised for a while that I'd stop repeating myself and make this separate video for the beginners. And now, in future videos I don't need to talk about 2k, 4k, 8k, 9k, 12k, 14k etc being misleading marketing terms anymore YAY! - I can just refer people here, which allows me to spend more time in reviews focusing on a printers features and the results it delivers. TLDW, please stop comparing printers by their K metric, that measures the screen resolution, not the print quality - we nee something new, please can we call use AVC instead.
Way too damn long... way to slow actually explaining the key point, and you spread it out so far most people will have forgotten your starting arguments for part A by the time you finish actually covering part B. Video could have been more informative, and not even five minutes long. I'd recommend you do less... ranting... on future videos meant to inform people. For information, and not just random entertainment, the length works against people and their attention spans or ability to focus. And ya, when it takes several minutes to realize yes you're just trying to mention the same obvious thing I figured this video might be about within two seconds of reading the title... talk about wasted time. If you want to spread this out to get more views and new people to the channel... not the right way to do it I'd say... Hit the touchy titles and clickbait ok... but focus on the point without wasting everyones time.
@@terricon4 I hear you, and my comment above is my attempt at damage control for earlier comments saying the same. I:ve even had some independent friends watch it now who have echoed what you have said so the message is heard loud and clear. What I do find odd is that when I check the stats on this video. It has higher engagement and a longer watch time than any other video I've put out in the last 6 months, which is crazy. It has more subscribers per view too. So whilst I do hear you, and take the feedback onboard, I will cut the waffle in future videos. The video itself is really resonating with a good group of people. and i believe it's likely the beginners who the video was aimed at who want this kind of buy info, as many other comments have suggested. I did go into this with an intentional slow burn intro, bit to drag it out, but so that people new to all this had time to digest the info I'm putting forward. I get that the first several minutes are the same point 3 different ways. That was intentional. I realised it was dragging and then instead of just moving on, apologised to my existing viewers for it happening. No idea if that helped or made it worse. It's all good feedback that will lead to better videos in future.
I always use the analogy of grains of sand on a beach. Because any display device is about pixel density as you point out. Not pixels in general. It’s why buying a TV for 4k for instance only starts making sense at a certain size/viewing distance. You have to get close enough for it to matter/you to see the individual grains of sand. Just a helpful analogy for laymen
All of the new printers are going to be 12k. The people over at Concepts3D told us last week that they 8k LCD panels that they and everyone else have been using have been discontinued. They are working to purchase enough of the remaining stock to cover warranties, etc. I opted for the 12k Athena more as a future proofing than anything. It comes with the cable and board that will be required to drive higher resolution displays and the concept behind the Athena is to have a fairly generic platform that can be upgraded over time.
Oh 'K' ur 'screwed' with the bigger the build volume the less quality output with same screen resolution. 'Bolt' of inspiration compare 'bolt and nut' benchies (benchmark) a simple visual of smallest working bolt and nut that resin printer can produce. This would be a direct comparison. So a postage stamp sized resin build area/screen would be very small jewelry sized bolt ( or smaller) and a drydock sized build area/screen would be a massive oil tanker size bolt. Scaling would be logarithmic or exponential. Sticker on side of printer with its bolt benchy quick visual comparison.
As much as I really love the points of the video, it does feel like the first 10 minutes couldve been 1 minute addressing the title, it just felt a bit like waffling. After the 10 minute mark it gets more helpful and informative - retention will be interesting for this one!
And as long as we're giving constructive criticism if you are going to waffle on recycling the same three or four stock clips throughout it makes it even less interesting to watch.
Way too damn long form... Summed up, it's just two points really. 1. When they say 8k... 12k... etc... it's using semi arbitrary measurements on one axis one the screen so it's not really representative of that actual total resolution you'd expect. But importantly it's still a rough estimate for density along the horizontal axis so... a roughly at a glance useful metric I'd say. Second, you don't care about total pixels on a printer, as much as the pixel density per square inch of the screen. Since a 12K might have more pixels, but on a 16 inch print base it's still fewer per inch than an 8K will have on a tiny 9inch screen. So if you have a tiny screen/printing area, for the same resolution you get a higher quality mini (up till your print settings/resin can support). So, if you want a tiny printer, sure, 8K is an ok metric. For larger ones to build giant things or print small armies in one batch, you might want the higher resolution, but ya, just reference the actual screen resolution by it's dimensions. So as a method to tell at a glance if a printer has decent detail, just look at how big it is, and then the screen resolution. And for titles of printers on amazon search pages, they can fit 8k or 12k where listing 11,520*9,480 probably just wont fit or stand out so nicely... So Ks are a valid and useful, it not perfectly accurate and reliable method of tell roughly what you're looking at. Once you see a printer at a glance that's roughly what you want, then you look into its details on actual screen size/resolution to get the specifics. Some even do list the pixel density per square inch for you, but again, that's not something as easy to sort by on an amazon search so, basic K marketing works and is useful for everyone, just actually understand what it is like you should for everything else you search for and buy.
I liked it despite having 3 printers and starting with the original Photon years ago. If manufacturers would stop using "K", this video would be just clickbait, but they aren't! But I disagree with the AVC standard. What brands need to do is to specify an actual printing resolution in terms of lines/mm at a defined z-aspect ratio. They can then even sell the resin they used to measure it. The point is, that a printer with 24 um pixels may perform much better than one with 17 um because it has better contrast ratio in the resin, which is determined by a number of optical factors.
I think the point is to make a video that he can point to and say "watch this" irregardless of whether you're up to date with the latest news or if you're brand new to this. I don't think this video was meant for people like you and me who can agree to a standard in 30 seconds.
@@lanzer22leaving aside the point that irregardless is not a word, The first 10 minutes of the video are orthogonal to the main point. Resolution is very important, but it is important in that it sets the pixel size and that is what matters. Trying to claim that resolution doesn't matter is silly. The point is that resolution and the resulting pixel size are both important. At the end of the day the pixel size determines your output quality all other factors being equal.
@@FauxHammer tus videos han sido los mas honestos que he visto y en mi caso fundamentales para la toma de desicin de la compra de mi primera impresora , siga haciendo contenido honesto, de verdad se aprecia mucho.
See, I knew there was something missing in regards to a "quality" measurement when I was last considering getting a resin printer (I still haven't bought one), and here it is, put right in front of me what I didn't realize was missing. This is great! Only complaint I have against your video is how it feels like one of those dumb scammy video websites where it talks about some irrelevant crap, jumping between related topics, while promising for over an hour that they're about to explain what it is the person started watching for, and in the very end it just tries to sell you a book or a course on the topic instead of actually explaining it. Kind of an extreme description, but I did have that feeling about 5 minutes in, looked at how long the video was, and bumped it up to 2x speed to finish it faster. This video really could have been taken down to 10 minutes if you kinda just got to the point, and I think people would enjoy watching your videos more if other videos of yours are similar to this one (algorithm recommended this video to me, so I haven't watched others yet).
I hear you! Yet, what I noticed is the following my LCD and my DLP have the exact same AVC of 50µm, the quality of the DLP is way better. I mean, you can dry brush a mini printed on the DLP without seeing ANY lines. We probably need to have something for DLP as well. In the 2d world this would refer to pixel-images and vector images, I guess. What do you think?
I haven't used a DLP, but I suspect it has to do with DLP being a consistent light source across the entire print area while individual LEDs in the LCD screen can be brighter or darker than the median. LCDs lose more power to the glass than a DLP as well, which could be a problem in itself as well as degrading the variations within the LCD further.
Yup fully agree on the use of the AVC metric for any type of resin printer. The fun part will be when comparing a DLP printer with an AVC of 51micron against a 22micron AVC LCD resin printer where the difference is pretty much negligible but the technology is different.
Yeah, agreed, but that's the bit where I did the car analogy with Horsepower/KG,. It's only ever going to be a raw number, you still need reviewers to dissect it before making a decision. - but its's a better more comparable baseline between printer sizes than K.
I have a 4K printer (the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4K) and I'm curious just how much of a difference in visible quality there is between the 8K and 12K machines of similar size.
Here's something to think about: My Mars 4 DLP is a "2K" printer. It has a Voxel size of 51 or 52 µm (depending on who you ask... I figure there's probably a decimal point being rounded, and I don't really care). Your Frozen Sonic Mighty 4K *also* has a 52 µm Voxel size. You have *double* the K, but are going to have _literally the same print quality_. So, with that eyeball calibration out of the way: I've spent a *lot* of time staring at prints under magnification, with various AA settings, from many slicers. If you're young, and have good eyesight (or glasses), and the prints are unpainted, and have a resin that shows off contrast well: you can see differences if you pick it up and examine them closely. If you're older (eyesight starts to go *fast* above 40), or if the prints are painted, or if the resin doesn't show contrast well (transparent or white resin, for example), or the prints are more than 30 cm away - then it's unlikely you'll be able to see anything. Keep in mind: An _expertly applied_ spray coat of primer alone is going to be 20 µm thick. Expertly applied paints are likely going to add another 100 µm of additional thickness. That's a _lot_ of, well, "self-leveling filler." to smooth out any voxel blockiness.
stupid: it's just so you read and realize that sometimes it's not so you read it but so you realize it's true. Printers are not made for your world of stupidity. They were created with the purpose of being able to physically extract things that are virtual and not only that but they can be converted to metal in a foundry, for example jewelry, where precision is the detail and microns are worth gold, it is not your case, you are only playing to test printers and act important, the microns of a printer are worth at casting levels since it leaves a smooth surface where it takes little time to finish it perfectly, above The 30 microns are already problematic, that is, stop giving opinions from a chair complaining about the lack of pleasure in your useless life and leave the microns to those who really care, those who work and have access to economical and super precise printers ( this for the useless video creator)
@@FauxHammer Seems like current resin 3D printers are quickly approaching that level of detail, at least the small ones are. In a couple years I imagine resolution will become pretty standardized across the board so we can get over having to deal with +2K per iteration every 6 months lol.
@@FauxHammer thanks for this number there, a lot of us are trying to get the clearest smoothes print out of clear resin and knowing where we can stop worrying about surface "frosting" or texture would warp the light on smooth planes it good to keep in mind. 💙
Just to be pedantic here (and give you some tasty "engagement"), your engine size example does have one flaw. Maximum possible power output of a combustion engine is in direct relation to the engine volume. Assuming that the engine builders were both seeking max power output, the larger engine will be more powerful. It would have probably been a better comparison to say that comparing two cars performance purely on their horsepower is irrelevant because that truck with 800hp and 1200 ftlbs of torque is also 3-4 times heavier than the 250hp / 185 ftlbs hatchback
Was thinking the same. Best would have been to compare same capacity engines, but one in a sportscar and one in a van. Which will go faster (print quality) vs which can move all your furniture to your new place the fastest (print size).
*[VØCs]* Great Video M8, truly;-) 19:19 Speaking of *_Irrelevance':_** when will we get a (equally or more important) Video on how those *"Awesome Little USB Charcoal Filters"* you plug in the back of your 3D Printer; *_Don't Do Anything To Clear Up & Remove the extremely harmful VOCs_* * which are spewed out of your 3DP into the air when printing in a room without a full Intake In/Out Air System** (?) (* USB Filter only *_Mask_*_ Odours,_ they don't *_Remove_*_ them_ ) (** The only real system which removes the majority of VOCs in an unventilated room ) (*** VOCs which, after prolonged & or repeated exposure, even w/ a respirator, can cause a *_Myriad_*_ of _*_Health Problems_* )
FOR THE ALGORITHM! I have a DLP printer. It has a 51 µm voxel size. That's the only number I've ever used, personally. If you get *good* atomization,, you can airbrush (or rattle can) primer down around 8-30 µm (when it's dry). Think about it, folks. Even when dry, a coat of primer is roughly half a voxel at my printer's 51 µm voxel size. If you aren't so lucky, the blobs of primer coming from the spray can will be many times bigger than the 51 µm voxels by my printer produces. With the highest-resolution printers available, the _best priming job possible_ is going to add an inconsistent and (relatively) sloppy layer on top of the sharp layer the printer creates. If you're _painting_ your minis, we're fast approaching the point where there's no point in resolution improvements. That's not to say there can't be improvements - the Apple Vision Pro, for example, has LCD's with pixels in the 8 µm range. I imagine it'll be a while before they can be produced at the size of a Sonic 8Ks mini or Mars printer. I agree with @FauxHammer: Use voxel size in µm, but I'd demand the eccentricity from being a perfect square.
So, TDLR; Much like how fast a car can be is not determined by power but by power/weight, printer sharpness is not determined by pixel count but by pixel count / how small those pixels are. Is that a half decent understanding?
@@joergsonnenberger6836 well no - as the point of the video says DPI is just X/Y resolution - Layer Hight / Z axis needs to be included hence the move to tward actual voxal
I understood this before seeing this video. But you touched on a point I never thought of. On a large printer Is there even atcualy any point printing a .02 layer height when the it's only giving you 43um X 43um. Should we just be printing .04 layer height and speed up the print now that is has much less layers. I atcualy just noticed the standard profile for the M3 max is .05mm layer height
This meeting should have been an email. Almost offensively winding the viewer along. I won't be checking out any more FauxHammer videos that show up in my algorithm, gross.
Totally agree with what you're saying here, and the last 5 minutes of this video discussing community feedback was really great. The "boring tech talk" is really why I clicked on a video discussing the relevance of a fairly esoteric measurement. Wholly believe, however, that it doesnt take over 20 minutes to get this information across - BUT I understand you need watch time for the algo (hence this comment). I felt that you spent a lot of time repeating yourself, which nearly lost me a few times. I look forward to this being the spearhead of a movement to redfine how we measure the specs of these machines (at least until we get true SLA printers in the home market with infinite XY accuracy - or at least 405nm² x 20um voxels haha), and I hope enthusiasts can prevail in the face of less than scrupulous overseas manufacturers. Thanks for your time and for really considering all fronts of this. I'm in the market for a new printer - so I think its high time I sent requests out for this data...!
Your videos helped me to decide for an 12k printer - because I now know what "the sweet spot" for it is (19x24x20 in my case). Of course, I could bought a smaller one with the same AVC, but I print for tabletop mainly, so i decided for a larger print size. So thank you for your help to understand the AVC and the impact of the quality of my prints.
QUESTION: Are there any large volume printers, that maintain the smaller voxels (22um x 22 xm x 20um)? If yes, please list them, or how to find them? I would like to purchase one with a larger print volume, but with the smaller/smallest voxels. thx
I have a question: Isn't the resin used going to affect the achievable layer thickness as well? So the AVC, if it is in the height direction, would only be a measure of the resolution of height that the actual mechanical apparatus can achieve - right?
Dear FauxHammer, think it would help if you could publish the AVC for all the known printers. A simple spreadsheet should do. Apologies if you already have that, then I simply was too thick to find it.
I totally agree and was going to suggest this - if the sheet (or webpage) were commonly adopted then it would help both people and companies understand whats needed of them.
Hi, Its me again, the guy who thought differently about a board game I never played. Loved your response, i giggled. I am enjoying your frankness and sarcasm in your videos. I am learn heaps and getting a lot of useful info from your videos. Soon I will check out some painting ones too.
I understand the premise of the video and the information presented. I think you’ll get more views getting straight to the point. I will say I saw the short you were talking about but never watched it because the thumbnail was of Opie from sons of anarchy and I just couldn’t get into that show. I think a term more relevant to laymen would help the industry. I think it should be ranged in dpi, it would be instantly recognized and understandable. Period. LxW dpi is close enough for me.
Hi hammer, sorry for asking you many questions but this is an important one , can put liquid resin inside plastic containers or it will make the containers crack
@@user-it7kg3pm4q that is not a problem in fact it is more safe, when I am saying I storage resin inside containers I mean toxic waste like papers with liquid resin and unwashed models
I'm all for this, and it will be up to reviewers to start using this as the way to compare printers in reviews. Viewers should start asking what the AVC/XY Resolution is, both to manufacturers and reviewers. Build Volume (XYZ), XY Resolution (µm), and light source technology are what really matter to me, along with the quality of life features (heated vat, auto-refill, build quality, quietness, networking, etc). You'll notice some manufacturers (AnyCubic) don't put the XY Resolution on their large volume printers because the XY Resolution isn't sexy enough for marketing and betrays the entire K rating system. Huge difference between 8K 13.6" and 8K 9.1" screen.
Got to say this was my first vid by you I watched and like the rest already pointed out once you got past the waffle waffle stage, and got to the point is when I got really interested as I been putting off getting a printer till I get my new home and move. Thank goodness I put it off as I'd been in line with the K equals better right? crowd.. Now better informed I'll do more digging on printers and keep my eye on the used car salesmanship (upselling a potentially huge pile of garbage as a diamond) of printer makers. So thanks for that going to watch some of your other vids now and subbed😁😁🙃😁😁
I agree that a base measure of AVC is a good place to start, but how does that corespond to actual output? There is a fair gap between the screen and the resin ( probably more than the AVC size ) Fep film is what 50 microns or more? , and the light is scattererd by the the film so the final blob of light that cures the resin will be different to AVC and as different printers have different ways of collimating the light it would be nice to be able to recognise manufacturers that work on improving this rather than possibly meaningless ( at the 25 micron and below range) AVC figure? The Saturn in your tests seemd to print better that others at the same resolution for example. Would a smallest resolvable resin feature type standard make sense? Such as the pillars and holes on the test piece you use for tuning in exposure times.
Firstly that makes sense. Secondly that is how i thought it should always have worked. My question since i am kind of new is there a mathmatical formula for figuring out the AVC? Thank you excellent video.
AVC is the largest side of a single printable voxel. To work out z, it;s the minimum step distance, for X&Y it's Screen axis in mm devided by number of pixels on same axis
Thankyou so so much for everything! I was so afraid to start this journey but your videos got me through it all! I'm so proud to say I'll be the owner of a Saturn 4 ultra soon!!!!
Phrozen Sonic mini 8ks - 22 microns Mighty 8k - 43 microns Pretty straight forward. I only know these facts thanks to your channel & a couple others like Vogman. So cheers
thanks, and you know what, that;s kinda my point. you only know it becasue of me and Vogman, because K is seen everywheremm but AVC or largest pixel size is what matters. i;m glad you know, but so many people don't
Good idea but how would it be tested to make sure the manufacters are doing what they are advertising? Or, to be cynical, how can marketing manipulate AVC to thier own advantage? One test I have been doing is finding out what is the smallest hole size that can be printed without obstruction and still be dimensionally accurate. This can be easily measured by the guage of wire that can be passed through it.
Yes, Im moving from an Anycubic Photon mono 4k with a 35um pixel size. I'm going to go to either an elegoo saturn 3 or photon mono M5 12k with the 19x24um pixel size. Yes it wil give me finer prints, bit I also want larger build space to pron more in one shot and terrain. Do you guys have a better suggestion for printer.
stupid: it's just so you read and realize that sometimes it's not so you read it but so you realize it's true. Printers are not made for your world of stupidity. They were created with the purpose of being able to physically extract things that are virtual and not only that but they can be converted to metal in a foundry, for example jewelry, where precision is the detail and microns are worth gold, it is not your case, you are only playing to test printers and act important, the microns of a printer are worth at casting levels since it leaves a smooth surface where it takes little time to finish it perfectly, above The 30 microns are already problematic, that is, stop giving opinions from a chair complaining about the lack of pleasure in your useless life and leave the microns to those who really care, those who work and have access to economical and super precise printers ( this for the useless video creator)
Very, very didactic video. In these times of fast video and ultra-consumption, sincerity is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much and I'm sorry for my English
12:40 a 43x43x40um voxel is only about 1/8th as good as a 22x22x20um voxel, as in you can fit ~8 of the smaller voxels in the same space as 1 of the larger voxels. I think it's unfair to say the AVC of a printer is 20um when its pixel dimensions are 18x18um, "unless you want to print in 10um layer height" because that is a valid choice available to the user of the printer. In fact I think that the layer height should be left out of this AVC measurement unless the printer deviates from this 10um step size standard.
i wouldn't say 18x18x20 has an AVC of 20um, I'd say it;s 18. because as you rightly pointed out. Z is most likely not the constraint here because 10um layers, which (if we knew the minimum step distance) could probably be even closer to 18um. without going over. The whole point of C in AVC, is that it refers to the constraining dimension. Whichever value is the largest when we determine all 3 dimensions minimum values
@@vindik8oryeah, its the follow-up comment that's important, "unless you want to print in 10 micron layers." and do you want to print in 10 micron layers? as mentioned above in my comment, you may be able to get closer, but the truth is, I don't know as we don;t know the minimum accurate step distance.
Thanks, because Voxel is the output rendered on the mode. the pixel is the output of a printer component. I'm also considering a future where LCD's have sub 10 Micron pixels, but the z-axis is stuck in increments of 10 Microns.
It’s true a voxel isn’t a pixel, but rather the slightly larger result of the projection. But people might start to understand the bigger picture better. (Pixel size vrs “K” metric is still a major improvement.) I also understand that the way the light is manipulated changes voxel size, but I’m talking marketing not technical specs. I honestly hadn’t thought about z axis not keeping up! Regardless, good on you to raise community awareness!
Brilliant, so you understand now it's not about K it;s about the pixel size! You are the reason I made this, and it;s made my day that i can help you. But honestly, right now, some of the best detail printers are the 12k ones. like the Saturn 3.
I am grateful for your videos. The explanations, definitions, and experience are tremendously beneficial. They have helped me avoid the marketing traps, and I sincerely appreciate it. Keep up the great work!
I'm a newby to resin printing and sometimes find things difficult to understand but I understud and agreed with everything that you said because you explained it in simple terms so from what I've seen of the new sonic mighty revo 14K which looks good and I was thinking of buying as my starter printer as it look simple to use it won't mean anything unless the pixels are equal both ways and are at the value they should be!, I'll be very interested to know what you think about this new printer in a review and see if it's same old, same old, with a new coat on?, many thanks for the video, see you on the next one!.
Next step: how much of the resolution survives the non parallel(or slightly diffused) light rays bleeding into each other? At least for x & y axis. That might be another differentiator. Lightsource, masking element and optical path from there into the resin would have influence.
I'm only a couple weeks into this hobby, but it's been quite the learning experience thus far. I really enjoy your content and appreciate all the passion you put into it. My entry machine was a Photon 4k, but I find this topic really helpful as I'm already pondering what I want my next printer to be.
Fantastic video! I've been trying to explain this to clients for YEARS now I'm just going to send them a link to this video.. When you print across multiple printers this becomes quite obvious but that's why I use different printers for different models but the M3 MAX prints are almost identical to the Jupiter as long as you dial in the resin!
Ive been looking at getting into resin and am glad to hear this; the seeming resolution creep had been a reason I’d held off I’d thought 12k didn’t look much better than 8k but hadn’t looked into it yet, but am glad to know to look out specifically for the pixel size - makes the comparison a lot easier
While I appreciate the honesty up front of how this video is click bait and meant to drive views I don't appreciate the wasted time spent watching this video. Do the mini related content and printer reviews and follow-ups. I think your viewers understand screen resolution by now. I'll continue my sub.. but you really made me think about dropping it.
The point of this is so that I never have to do it again. You know I've said this same thing dosens of time. as much as I need to do in future is point people to this video. This is me putting it to bed.
So, since this.., we have had pixels as small as 16um, printers AVC around 18.. but what has been more important now, is bothe the lightsource and how dense the screen is in terms of allowing UV transmittance. So all of this is udder nonsense
I do wonder about the precision and accuracy of the leadscrews and steppers in these things. It would be interesting if you did some experiments with a dial indicator.
I started looking at build volume and microns instead of resolution and it's blows my mind that some companies even put the screen resolution when their micron size is horrible.
Love it. I've been with you about the silliness of the K designation from the beginning. As for the AVC, you need a few of the other TH-camrs to start using it. That should help a ton.
Bought an Elegoo mars 4 ultra for it's 18x18um pixel size. Need the most detail possible for some small functional parts. Screen resolution only makes sense comparing the same sized screen for sure.
Thank you for the detailed explanation. So between the different K tiers, the main difference is actually the different screen sizes for definition within each K tier. I've had a FDM printer and just now have purchased a resin printer for improved resolution of my designs for molding. Picked up an ANYCUBIC Photon Mono M5s 12K for $293 to my door.
So as a more direct comparison. Look at pixel size on the screen rather than resolution of the screen. A 13” 8k screen is significantly worse than a 6” 8k screen. But even at those smaller pixel sizes. Light source is important too
Hey @FauxHammer, nice video. One thing that I still find worth to mention; the AVC of the DLP printers in the axial direction is not equal to the step height you set at the printer but is determined by the dose and the material absorption constant. I guess for a lot of resins that are not pitch black this value is >20µm. And that would be the AVC in my opinion. So it is even more complicated as it is material dependent.
That's more true with LCD than DLP. but I'm not trying to enforce brands to determine the actual printed voxel. I just want to help define clear marketing terms in contrast to the BS currently spouted. I'm still working on helping people understand Exposure vs base exposure, if i ocvercomplicate videos with how pixels are formed. i'll loose my audience in a snooze fest quite rapidly
Thank you so much for this video. In hindsight it makes total sense - This is something that in the past used to be discussed about smartphone screens, when most companies were still trying to figure out what the best ratio was and weird panel resolutions were coming out all the time :) This really helped me in making a better informed decision, as I've been eyeing resin printers, and I was focusing too much on the screen resolution. Cheers friend!
@@FauxHammer I did! I’ve been following up on your past videos too, and btw kudos on your Poland trip. The community there is absurdly good and fun. Good people too! They deserve all the attention. Hope to see you showing more stuff like that, the people deserve it!
This appears to be the longest way possible of saying that bigger printing screens can double the AVC and a lower AVC means smaller “pixels” which means better details. So the mini 8k is somehow the best printer?
Thank you SO MUCH! Voxels all the way. Thank you so much for putting this video out there. You have said it so much better than I could have ever had. 👌🏼
Thank you for your video. I am new to the hobby and am currently looking for my first printer. I really thought the K meant something. Thanks for opening my eyes!
Solid information and rant. The video took way to long to get rhe points across and the tone of voice used was off. Dont worry ill keep watching your video.
Should we apply a similar metric to resin types? It’s not uncommon to see 8k resin on the label. However, as you’ve pointed out in others videos, there are many factors to consider (detail, flexibility, etc). Overall nice video if a little drawn out (but I understand I wasn’t the target demographic and I just watched it for our god the big G algorithm).
I fdm print now. Really enjoy the builds. I have been looking at resin and think this video answered questions I had about the machines. Thank you 👍 from me.
Could label things as Minimal Square Voxel. The smallest square (within 10%) that is possible with the printer. Could also do the do the average of the pixel square so if it's 19×24 then the rating would be 21.5 micron. If you do that you could borrow car engine terminology and have over square (x has more pixels) and under square (y has more pixels) to define how it is skewed. So the previous would be like 21.5 os if it was reversed, then 21.5 us, if it's like the mini 8k the 22 s (square). I don't know just a thought. But yeah this whole thing is a bit silly.
So then your point is not that XK Printers are irrelevant, just that it is irrelevant since DPI is a better way to express the result am i correct? (or any metric to measure pixel density)
I completely agree with your points here but, would it be better for brands to just give us the diagonal pixel size (like when we look at TV sizes) and then the minium layer height the printer can do instead of the AVC? that way it won't matter if the pixels are square or rectangualr, you still get a value that is representative of the voxels the printer can produce.
damn, yeah that's smart... but..... What about height? this works perfectly except it only works in 2-dimensional space. so we are back to measuring the screen of a printer, not the volume of a pixel.
@FauxHammer pair it with the minimum layer height the printer is reliably able to do (probably related to the steps of the z motor) and you have a reliable comparison for printer quality
@@FauxHammer thinking about it more, you could also measure the minium volume a printer could produce from a single pixel and its lowest possible layer height. call it something like the minimum voxel volume
So im new to the hobby and looking at my first printer. Torn between a cheaper smaller mars 4 and the Saturn 3 budget isnt the issue between the two torn between getting the smaller models which should do everything i need but might need upgrading later and the saturn which might be my one stop shop that will carry me through my whole career any tips or experiences welcome
Ive been a dungeon master for almost a year ive been using roll20 but am making the switch to minis. So not jusr charater models but scenery like trees tables barrles rocks ect
Just commenting for the sake. I think this video has way too much waffle for beginners. Beginners need it to the point. I was 10 minutes in and still trying to find the evidence for your point. Whilst you’re correct in your point, just put it for the laymen. My 2p :)
I’ve been saying this for quite a while, I realize that an 8K on a small printer was half the size of an 8K on double size printer. It’s very much like what I go through when I explain Photoshop and screen resolution to clients that say that you need 300 dpi you also have to tell me how many inches or millimeters the sizes
I think this makes sense for LCD mSLA. However, we need a metric that shows why DLP gets better prints at lower resolution. And that has to do with the coherence of the light itself. I think you can combine all of these things into the volume of the frustum (like a pyramid with the top chopped off) between where the pixel is masked and the projection that actually makes it to the previous layer. Since people like to buy larger numbers, we just flip it (ie 1/v). This gives a number in 1/um3 they can market. I’m sure there’s a way for them to rig it, because I just thought of it now
This was really great and useful as someone who is constantly looking for ways to quantify and potentially describe technical and artistic qualities. I would say while I support your push for better standardization terms (lets all rejoice USB stuff is finally looking at getting their shit together), I think it would be beneficial to have a follow up video or two down the line to break down the description of AVC again. This follow up needs to get to the point a bit faster than this video; I only watched all the way through since I’ve seen a few from the channel and trust you already. For the uninitiated, the’ll need something in depth but more to the point before their eyes glaze over
The impression this gives off is that resolution doesn’t matter. It does with regards to screen size. Brands should just make the micron count more obvious. Also I’d rather see more printers with vat heaters and residue detection than perfectly square voxels.
I just clicked the video as I am just starting resin. I have a FDM, and won a resin printer. I don't think mine has a "K" sticker on it. Everything you stated is however very very true as the "K" metrics don't apply when as a user I can set the layer height. I went ahead and subbed as I can see the learning potential of your channel. Thank you.
You got my attention even with my ADHD. Thank you, for the information. I completely understand voxels without an explanation since I use them in my 3d work. I fully supported the AVC standard for 3d resin printers.
This video is a bit more long-form than usual, If you are a regular viewer, maybe skip to about 00:07:00 - (though I hope you will watch it all anyway to help boost the video and allow it to reach and help more people) But many of you have seen me make this same point over and over in all of my printer review videos. And I've promised for a while that I'd stop repeating myself and make this separate video for the beginners. And now, in future videos I don't need to talk about 2k, 4k, 8k, 9k, 12k, 14k etc being misleading marketing terms anymore YAY! - I can just refer people here, which allows me to spend more time in reviews focusing on a printers features and the results it delivers.
TLDW, please stop comparing printers by their K metric, that measures the screen resolution, not the print quality - we nee something new, please can we call use AVC instead.
Way too damn long... way to slow actually explaining the key point, and you spread it out so far most people will have forgotten your starting arguments for part A by the time you finish actually covering part B. Video could have been more informative, and not even five minutes long. I'd recommend you do less... ranting... on future videos meant to inform people. For information, and not just random entertainment, the length works against people and their attention spans or ability to focus. And ya, when it takes several minutes to realize yes you're just trying to mention the same obvious thing I figured this video might be about within two seconds of reading the title... talk about wasted time. If you want to spread this out to get more views and new people to the channel... not the right way to do it I'd say... Hit the touchy titles and clickbait ok... but focus on the point without wasting everyones time.
@@terricon4 I hear you, and my comment above is my attempt at damage control for earlier comments saying the same. I:ve even had some independent friends watch it now who have echoed what you have said so the message is heard loud and clear.
What I do find odd is that when I check the stats on this video. It has higher engagement and a longer watch time than any other video I've put out in the last 6 months, which is crazy. It has more subscribers per view too.
So whilst I do hear you, and take the feedback onboard, I will cut the waffle in future videos. The video itself is really resonating with a good group of people. and i believe it's likely the beginners who the video was aimed at who want this kind of buy info, as many other comments have suggested.
I did go into this with an intentional slow burn intro, bit to drag it out, but so that people new to all this had time to digest the info I'm putting forward. I get that the first several minutes are the same point 3 different ways. That was intentional. I realised it was dragging and then instead of just moving on, apologised to my existing viewers for it happening. No idea if that helped or made it worse.
It's all good feedback that will lead to better videos in future.
I always use the analogy of grains of sand on a beach. Because any display device is about pixel density as you point out. Not pixels in general. It’s why buying a TV for 4k for instance only starts making sense at a certain size/viewing distance. You have to get close enough for it to matter/you to see the individual grains of sand. Just a helpful analogy for laymen
All of the new printers are going to be 12k. The people over at Concepts3D told us last week that they 8k LCD panels that they and everyone else have been using have been discontinued. They are working to purchase enough of the remaining stock to cover warranties, etc. I opted for the 12k Athena more as a future proofing than anything. It comes with the cable and board that will be required to drive higher resolution displays and the concept behind the Athena is to have a fairly generic platform that can be upgraded over time.
Oh 'K' ur 'screwed' with the bigger the build volume the less quality output with same screen resolution. 'Bolt' of inspiration compare 'bolt and nut' benchies (benchmark) a simple visual of smallest working bolt and nut that resin printer can produce. This would be a direct comparison. So a postage stamp sized resin build area/screen would be very small jewelry sized bolt ( or smaller) and a drydock sized build area/screen would be a massive oil tanker size bolt. Scaling would be logarithmic or exponential. Sticker on side of printer with its bolt benchy quick visual comparison.
As much as I really love the points of the video, it does feel like the first 10 minutes couldve been 1 minute addressing the title, it just felt a bit like waffling. After the 10 minute mark it gets more helpful and informative - retention will be interesting for this one!
Fair enough, I hear you
And as long as we're giving constructive criticism if you are going to waffle on recycling the same three or four stock clips throughout it makes it even less interesting to watch.
This video is 1000% runtime padding.
@@johnnyjoseph1389yep, thanks, heard you the first time
Yeah I just went to the comments after he made no points by the time it was 3min in. First time watching the channel and won't be back.
Way too damn long form... Summed up, it's just two points really. 1. When they say 8k... 12k... etc... it's using semi arbitrary measurements on one axis one the screen so it's not really representative of that actual total resolution you'd expect. But importantly it's still a rough estimate for density along the horizontal axis so... a roughly at a glance useful metric I'd say.
Second, you don't care about total pixels on a printer, as much as the pixel density per square inch of the screen. Since a 12K might have more pixels, but on a 16 inch print base it's still fewer per inch than an 8K will have on a tiny 9inch screen. So if you have a tiny screen/printing area, for the same resolution you get a higher quality mini (up till your print settings/resin can support).
So, if you want a tiny printer, sure, 8K is an ok metric. For larger ones to build giant things or print small armies in one batch, you might want the higher resolution, but ya, just reference the actual screen resolution by it's dimensions.
So as a method to tell at a glance if a printer has decent detail, just look at how big it is, and then the screen resolution. And for titles of printers on amazon search pages, they can fit 8k or 12k where listing 11,520*9,480 probably just wont fit or stand out so nicely... So Ks are a valid and useful, it not perfectly accurate and reliable method of tell roughly what you're looking at. Once you see a printer at a glance that's roughly what you want, then you look into its details on actual screen size/resolution to get the specifics. Some even do list the pixel density per square inch for you, but again, that's not something as easy to sort by on an amazon search so, basic K marketing works and is useful for everyone, just actually understand what it is like you should for everything else you search for and buy.
Sorry man, but this was too much click bate for little information. It took the video 6 minutes too even begin talking about the point being made.
Ok
I liked it despite having 3 printers and starting with the original Photon years ago. If manufacturers would stop using "K", this video would be just clickbait, but they aren't!
But I disagree with the AVC standard. What brands need to do is to specify an actual printing resolution in terms of lines/mm at a defined z-aspect ratio. They can then even sell the resin they used to measure it.
The point is, that a printer with 24 um pixels may perform much better than one with 17 um because it has better contrast ratio in the resin, which is determined by a number of optical factors.
I think the point is to make a video that he can point to and say "watch this" irregardless of whether you're up to date with the latest news or if you're brand new to this. I don't think this video was meant for people like you and me who can agree to a standard in 30 seconds.
@@lanzer22leaving aside the point that irregardless is not a word, The first 10 minutes of the video are orthogonal to the main point. Resolution is very important, but it is important in that it sets the pixel size and that is what matters. Trying to claim that resolution doesn't matter is silly. The point is that resolution and the resulting pixel size are both important. At the end of the day the pixel size determines your output quality all other factors being equal.
@@FauxHammer tus videos han sido los mas honestos que he visto y en mi caso fundamentales para la toma de desicin de la compra de mi primera impresora , siga haciendo contenido honesto, de verdad se aprecia mucho.
basically you want the lowest µm value for x and y for the build volume you want
largest value of xy or z
@@FauxHammer so you want the higher the micron?
See, I knew there was something missing in regards to a "quality" measurement when I was last considering getting a resin printer (I still haven't bought one), and here it is, put right in front of me what I didn't realize was missing. This is great!
Only complaint I have against your video is how it feels like one of those dumb scammy video websites where it talks about some irrelevant crap, jumping between related topics, while promising for over an hour that they're about to explain what it is the person started watching for, and in the very end it just tries to sell you a book or a course on the topic instead of actually explaining it. Kind of an extreme description, but I did have that feeling about 5 minutes in, looked at how long the video was, and bumped it up to 2x speed to finish it faster. This video really could have been taken down to 10 minutes if you kinda just got to the point, and I think people would enjoy watching your videos more if other videos of yours are similar to this one (algorithm recommended this video to me, so I haven't watched others yet).
Fair enough, taken on board
That minimal z step is really needed and hard to find characteristic. Also would be nice to know what are software constraints on z travel speed.
Yep, I’ve been begging brands for this info in literally every review. And they never tell me.
I hear you! Yet, what I noticed is the following my LCD and my DLP have the exact same AVC of 50µm, the quality of the DLP is way better. I mean, you can dry brush a mini printed on the DLP without seeing ANY lines. We probably need to have something for DLP as well. In the 2d world this would refer to pixel-images and vector images, I guess. What do you think?
I haven't used a DLP, but I suspect it has to do with DLP being a consistent light source across the entire print area while individual LEDs in the LCD screen can be brighter or darker than the median. LCDs lose more power to the glass than a DLP as well, which could be a problem in itself as well as degrading the variations within the LCD further.
Yup fully agree on the use of the AVC metric for any type of resin printer. The fun part will be when comparing a DLP printer with an AVC of 51micron against a 22micron AVC LCD resin printer where the difference is pretty much negligible but the technology is different.
Yeah, agreed, but that's the bit where I did the car analogy with Horsepower/KG,. It's only ever going to be a raw number, you still need reviewers to dissect it before making a decision. - but its's a better more comparable baseline between printer sizes than K.
Man, I am so glad this is one of the first video I've been recommended as I started looking a 3D printers.
This saved me so much time lol.
I have a 4K printer (the Phrozen Sonic Mighty 4K) and I'm curious just how much of a difference in visible quality there is between the 8K and 12K machines of similar size.
Here's something to think about: My Mars 4 DLP is a "2K" printer. It has a Voxel size of 51 or 52 µm (depending on who you ask... I figure there's probably a decimal point being rounded, and I don't really care). Your Frozen Sonic Mighty 4K *also* has a 52 µm Voxel size. You have *double* the K, but are going to have _literally the same print quality_.
So, with that eyeball calibration out of the way: I've spent a *lot* of time staring at prints under magnification, with various AA settings, from many slicers.
If you're young, and have good eyesight (or glasses), and the prints are unpainted, and have a resin that shows off contrast well: you can see differences if you pick it up and examine them closely.
If you're older (eyesight starts to go *fast* above 40), or if the prints are painted, or if the resin doesn't show contrast well (transparent or white resin, for example), or the prints are more than 30 cm away - then it's unlikely you'll be able to see anything.
Keep in mind: An _expertly applied_ spray coat of primer alone is going to be 20 µm thick. Expertly applied paints are likely going to add another 100 µm of additional thickness. That's a _lot_ of, well, "self-leveling filler." to smooth out any voxel blockiness.
The print size is generally larger with similar voxel dimensions.
stupid: it's just so you read and realize that sometimes it's not so you read it but so you realize it's true.
Printers are not made for your world of stupidity. They were created with the purpose of being able to physically extract things that are virtual and not only that but they can be converted to metal in a foundry, for example jewelry, where precision is the detail and microns are worth gold, it is not your case, you are only playing to test printers and act important, the microns of a printer are worth at casting levels since it leaves a smooth surface where it takes little time to finish it perfectly, above The 30 microns are already problematic, that is, stop giving opinions from a chair complaining about the lack of pleasure in your useless life and leave the microns to those who really care, those who work and have access to economical and super precise printers ( this for the useless video creator)
In your opinion, what is the AVC beyond which diminishing return makes further refinement irrelevant?
I think i did the math on this recently, I think around 18um is where you can get 2x magnificattion without seeing a difference in horizontal pixles
@@FauxHammer Seems like current resin 3D printers are quickly approaching that level of detail, at least the small ones are. In a couple years I imagine resolution will become pretty standardized across the board so we can get over having to deal with +2K per iteration every 6 months lol.
@@FauxHammer thanks for this number there, a lot of us are trying to get the clearest smoothes print out of clear resin and knowing where we can stop worrying about surface "frosting" or texture would warp the light on smooth planes it good to keep in mind. 💙
Just to be pedantic here (and give you some tasty "engagement"), your engine size example does have one flaw. Maximum possible power output of a combustion engine is in direct relation to the engine volume. Assuming that the engine builders were both seeking max power output, the larger engine will be more powerful.
It would have probably been a better comparison to say that comparing two cars performance purely on their horsepower is irrelevant because that truck with 800hp and 1200 ftlbs of torque is also 3-4 times heavier than the 250hp / 185 ftlbs hatchback
Was thinking the same. Best would have been to compare same capacity engines, but one in a sportscar and one in a van. Which will go faster (print quality) vs which can move all your furniture to your new place the fastest (print size).
*[VØCs]* Great Video M8, truly;-) 19:19 Speaking of *_Irrelevance':_** when will we get a (equally or more important) Video on how those *"Awesome Little USB Charcoal Filters"* you plug in the back of your 3D Printer; *_Don't Do Anything To Clear Up & Remove the extremely harmful VOCs_* * which are spewed out of your 3DP into the air when printing in a room without a full Intake In/Out Air System** (?)
(* USB Filter only *_Mask_*_ Odours,_ they don't *_Remove_*_ them_ )
(** The only real system which removes the majority of VOCs in an unventilated room )
(*** VOCs which, after prolonged & or repeated exposure, even w/ a respirator, can cause a *_Myriad_*_ of _*_Health Problems_* )
FOR THE ALGORITHM! I have a DLP printer. It has a 51 µm voxel size. That's the only number I've ever used, personally.
If you get *good* atomization,, you can airbrush (or rattle can) primer down around 8-30 µm (when it's dry). Think about it, folks. Even when dry, a coat of primer is roughly half a voxel at my printer's 51 µm voxel size. If you aren't so lucky, the blobs of primer coming from the spray can will be many times bigger than the 51 µm voxels by my printer produces.
With the highest-resolution printers available, the _best priming job possible_ is going to add an inconsistent and (relatively) sloppy layer on top of the sharp layer the printer creates. If you're _painting_ your minis, we're fast approaching the point where there's no point in resolution improvements.
That's not to say there can't be improvements - the Apple Vision Pro, for example, has LCD's with pixels in the 8 µm range. I imagine it'll be a while before they can be produced at the size of a Sonic 8Ks mini or Mars printer.
I agree with @FauxHammer: Use voxel size in µm, but I'd demand the eccentricity from being a perfect square.
So, TDLR; Much like how fast a car can be is not determined by power but by power/weight, printer sharpness is not determined by pixel count but by pixel count / how small those pixels are.
Is that a half decent understanding?
Jupp, compare DPI, not physical resolution.
@@joergsonnenberger6836 well no - as the point of the video says DPI is just X/Y resolution - Layer Hight / Z axis needs to be included hence the move to tward actual voxal
I understood this before seeing this video. But you touched on a point I never thought of. On a large printer Is there even atcualy any point printing a .02 layer height when the it's only giving you 43um X 43um.
Should we just be printing .04 layer height and speed up the print now that is has much less layers.
I atcualy just noticed the standard profile for the M3 max is .05mm layer height
Ok, using your terminology (which I agree with), is there a printer with a 12" - 15" screen with a 20 - 24 AVC?
Thanks, and no, not yet, we are all waiting for one.
@FauxHammer Darn.. is there a 10" with a 19 - 24 AVC? I'm honestly lost on how many printers there are and the capabilities.
@@Jedi_Jeff yes, all current 12k printers are 10” 19x24um pixels. Making the AVC 24um
@@FauxHammer Phrozen Mighty has a "14k" 10.1 inch screen. 16 × 24 microns..for $999.00 at pre-order launch.
This meeting should have been an email. Almost offensively winding the viewer along. I won't be checking out any more FauxHammer videos that show up in my algorithm, gross.
Totally agree with what you're saying here, and the last 5 minutes of this video discussing community feedback was really great. The "boring tech talk" is really why I clicked on a video discussing the relevance of a fairly esoteric measurement.
Wholly believe, however, that it doesnt take over 20 minutes to get this information across - BUT I understand you need watch time for the algo (hence this comment). I felt that you spent a lot of time repeating yourself, which nearly lost me a few times.
I look forward to this being the spearhead of a movement to redfine how we measure the specs of these machines (at least until we get true SLA printers in the home market with infinite XY accuracy - or at least 405nm² x 20um voxels haha), and I hope enthusiasts can prevail in the face of less than scrupulous overseas manufacturers.
Thanks for your time and for really considering all fronts of this. I'm in the market for a new printer - so I think its high time I sent requests out for this data...!
17:35 "perfectly square" should say "perefectly cubic", right?
Your videos helped me to decide for an 12k printer - because I now know what "the sweet spot" for it is (19x24x20 in my case). Of course, I could bought a smaller one with the same AVC, but I print for tabletop mainly, so i decided for a larger print size. So thank you for your help to understand the AVC and the impact of the quality of my prints.
QUESTION: Are there any large volume printers, that maintain the smaller voxels (22um x 22 xm x 20um)?
If yes, please list them, or how to find them?
I would like to purchase one with a larger print volume, but with the smaller/smallest voxels.
thx
No, there aren’t.. yet
Lost my attention after 5+ minutes of justifying the title. Still leaving a comment for the algorithm, just something to consider.
I mean, you're not wrong, but i have a feeling you already knew and understood what the point of it was.
point taken, comment appreciated
Honestly still don''t, I was on work break when I clicked in @@demijebus6831
Same, if this happens in another vid I’m unsubbing.
@@nobirdsnomasters lol
I have a question: Isn't the resin used going to affect the achievable layer thickness as well? So the AVC, if it is in the height direction, would only be a measure of the resolution of height that the actual mechanical apparatus can achieve - right?
Dear FauxHammer, think it would help if you could publish the AVC for all the known printers. A simple spreadsheet should do.
Apologies if you already have that, then I simply was too thick to find it.
Not a bad idea, I’ve said it in all videos, just never called it AvC before
I totally agree and was going to suggest this - if the sheet (or webpage) were commonly adopted then it would help both people and companies understand whats needed of them.
That's a great explanation. Does a printer's wavelength make a difference?
Hi, Its me again, the guy who thought differently about a board game I never played. Loved your response, i giggled. I am enjoying your frankness and sarcasm in your videos. I am learn heaps and getting a lot of useful info from your videos. Soon I will check out some painting ones too.
Glad you enjoyed it! I really appreciate you understand sarcasm! it will help a lot on my channel
I understand the premise of the video and the information presented. I think you’ll get more views getting straight to the point. I will say I saw the short you were talking about but never watched it because the thumbnail was of Opie from sons of anarchy and I just couldn’t get into that show.
I think a term more relevant to laymen would help the industry. I think it should be ranged in dpi, it would be instantly recognized and understandable. Period. LxW dpi is close enough for me.
Please give Sons another chance, It's Shakespere on Motorbikes
Hi hammer, sorry for asking you many questions but this is an important one , can put liquid resin inside plastic containers or it will make the containers crack
I often put it in plastic takeaway tubs without issue
@@user-it7kg3pm4q also the containers are closed and the resin air cant get out, is that a problem?
@@user-it7kg3pm4q what happens if resin self polymerize
@@user-it7kg3pm4q that is not a problem in fact it is more safe, when I am saying I storage resin inside containers I mean toxic waste like papers with liquid resin and unwashed models
Excellent video. I have been trying to explain this to people for YEARS. Well done and now I have a place to send people to.
That's why I have a 14K printer. 😛
14k is also irrelevant. ;)
@@FauxHammer Yeah but bigger numbers!! I do want to know what magic causes the rectangular pixels not to stretch/distort prints.
@@tmilker lol
I'm all for this, and it will be up to reviewers to start using this as the way to compare printers in reviews. Viewers should start asking what the AVC/XY Resolution is, both to manufacturers and reviewers.
Build Volume (XYZ), XY Resolution (µm), and light source technology are what really matter to me, along with the quality of life features (heated vat, auto-refill, build quality, quietness, networking, etc).
You'll notice some manufacturers (AnyCubic) don't put the XY Resolution on their large volume printers because the XY Resolution isn't sexy enough for marketing and betrays the entire K rating system. Huge difference between 8K 13.6" and 8K 9.1" screen.
Got to say this was my first vid by you I watched and like the rest already pointed out once you got past the waffle waffle stage, and got to the point is when I got really interested as I been putting off getting a printer till I get my new home and move. Thank goodness I put it off as I'd been in line with the K equals better right? crowd.. Now better informed I'll do more digging on printers and keep my eye on the used car salesmanship (upselling a potentially huge pile of garbage as a diamond) of printer makers. So thanks for that going to watch some of your other vids now and subbed😁😁🙃😁😁
I agree that a base measure of AVC is a good place to start, but how does that corespond to actual output? There is a fair gap between the screen and the resin ( probably more than the AVC size ) Fep film is what 50 microns or more? , and the light is scattererd by the the film so the final blob of light that cures the resin will be different to AVC and as different printers have different ways of collimating the light it would be nice to be able to recognise manufacturers that work on improving this rather than possibly meaningless ( at the 25 micron and below range) AVC figure? The Saturn in your tests seemd to print better that others at the same resolution for example.
Would a smallest resolvable resin feature type standard make sense? Such as the pillars and holes on the test piece you use for tuning in exposure times.
so if I understood correctly, the um is the most important thing with the printer? the smaller the um, the better the printing quality will be?
you understood correctly
They removed from the Anycubic specifications, such as 4,5,7 k , they are no longer visible um , visable is on 12,14 k 😂
Firstly that makes sense. Secondly that is how i thought it should always have worked. My question since i am kind of new is there a mathmatical formula for figuring out the AVC? Thank you excellent video.
AVC is the largest side of a single printable voxel.
To work out z, it;s the minimum step distance, for X&Y it's Screen axis in mm devided by number of pixels on same axis
@@FauxHammer Thank you.......as i am new i tried to follow your example. I have a mars 4 and was trying to figure out the AVC.
This is a great thing for the community, thanks!
Glad you think so!
Incredibly helpful information! Anyone looking to buy a resin printer should watch this video before making a decision. Thank you Fauxhammer!
Thanks so much
Thankyou so so much for everything! I was so afraid to start this journey but your videos got me through it all! I'm so proud to say I'll be the owner of a Saturn 4 ultra soon!!!!
Phrozen Sonic mini 8ks - 22 microns
Mighty 8k - 43 microns
Pretty straight forward. I only know these facts thanks to your channel & a couple others like Vogman.
So cheers
thanks, and you know what, that;s kinda my point. you only know it becasue of me and Vogman, because K is seen everywheremm but AVC or largest pixel size is what matters.
i;m glad you know, but so many people don't
Good idea but how would it be tested to make sure the manufacters are doing what they are advertising? Or, to be cynical, how can marketing manipulate AVC to thier own advantage? One test I have been doing is finding out what is the smallest hole size that can be printed without obstruction and still be dimensionally accurate. This can be easily measured by the guage of wire that can be passed through it.
Yes, Im moving from an Anycubic Photon mono 4k with a 35um pixel size.
I'm going to go to either an elegoo saturn 3 or photon mono M5 12k with the 19x24um pixel size.
Yes it wil give me finer prints, bit I also want larger build space to pron more in one shot and terrain.
Do you guys have a better suggestion for printer.
Saturn 3, Best choice for quality and size
stupid: it's just so you read and realize that sometimes it's not so you read it but so you realize it's true.
Printers are not made for your world of stupidity. They were created with the purpose of being able to physically extract things that are virtual and not only that but they can be converted to metal in a foundry, for example jewelry, where precision is the detail and microns are worth gold, it is not your case, you are only playing to test printers and act important, the microns of a printer are worth at casting levels since it leaves a smooth surface where it takes little time to finish it perfectly, above The 30 microns are already problematic, that is, stop giving opinions from a chair complaining about the lack of pleasure in your useless life and leave the microns to those who really care, those who work and have access to economical and super precise printers ( this for the useless video creator)
Very, very didactic video. In these times of fast video and ultra-consumption, sincerity is greatly appreciated. Thank you very much and I'm sorry for my English
Thanks, English was spot on, no need to apologise
12:40 a 43x43x40um voxel is only about 1/8th as good as a 22x22x20um voxel, as in you can fit ~8 of the smaller voxels in the same space as 1 of the larger voxels. I think it's unfair to say the AVC of a printer is 20um when its pixel dimensions are 18x18um, "unless you want to print in 10um layer height" because that is a valid choice available to the user of the printer. In fact I think that the layer height should be left out of this AVC measurement unless the printer deviates from this 10um step size standard.
i wouldn't say 18x18x20 has an AVC of 20um, I'd say it;s 18. because as you rightly pointed out. Z is most likely not the constraint here because 10um layers, which (if we knew the minimum step distance) could probably be even closer to 18um. without going over.
The whole point of C in AVC, is that it refers to the constraining dimension. Whichever value is the largest when we determine all 3 dimensions minimum values
@@FauxHammer at 18:41 you say that the Mars 4 and Mars 4 Ultra have an AVC of 20 microns. Am I misunderstanding you here?
@@vindik8oryeah, its the follow-up comment that's important, "unless you want to print in 10 micron layers." and do you want to print in 10 micron layers?
as mentioned above in my comment, you may be able to get closer, but the truth is, I don't know as we don;t know the minimum accurate step distance.
Why aren’t we just saying pixel size? That’s basically what a voxel is. Great video btw
Thanks, because Voxel is the output rendered on the mode. the pixel is the output of a printer component. I'm also considering a future where LCD's have sub 10 Micron pixels, but the z-axis is stuck in increments of 10 Microns.
It’s true a voxel isn’t a pixel, but rather the slightly larger result of the projection. But people might start to understand the bigger picture better. (Pixel size vrs “K” metric is still a major improvement.) I also understand that the way the light is manipulated changes voxel size, but I’m talking marketing not technical specs. I honestly hadn’t thought about z axis not keeping up!
Regardless, good on you to raise community awareness!
@@jasoncompton5280 thanks mate, I am doing what i can.
I'm always amazed in how much work you put into your videos. Excellent presentation.
I was looking for a 12K but now i know what to look for, thanks!
Brilliant, so you understand now it's not about K it;s about the pixel size! You are the reason I made this, and it;s made my day that i can help you.
But honestly, right now, some of the best detail printers are the 12k ones. like the Saturn 3.
I am grateful for your videos. The explanations, definitions, and experience are tremendously beneficial. They have helped me avoid the marketing traps, and I sincerely appreciate it. Keep up the great work!
So what the best and easiest print to use for minis?
I'm a newby to resin printing and sometimes find things difficult to understand but I understud and agreed with everything that you said because you explained it in simple terms so from what I've seen of the new sonic mighty revo 14K which looks good and I was thinking of buying as my starter printer as it look simple to use it won't mean anything unless the pixels are equal both ways and are at the value they should be!, I'll be very interested to know what you think about this new printer in a review and see if it's same old, same old, with a new coat on?, many thanks for the video, see you on the next one!.
Next step: how much of the resolution survives the non parallel(or slightly diffused) light rays bleeding into each other? At least for x & y axis. That might be another differentiator. Lightsource, masking element and optical path from there into the resin would have influence.
Why not all dimensions of the voxel and just not the biggest?
Beautifully explained. Very useful for me as a newcomer to the 3D printing industry. And love the proposal of using AVC
I'm only a couple weeks into this hobby, but it's been quite the learning experience thus far.
I really enjoy your content and appreciate all the passion you put into it.
My entry machine was a Photon 4k, but I find this topic really helpful as I'm already pondering what I want my next printer to be.
Thank you for the time and effort you have dedicated to this. I appreciate the information provided, especially as I am new to this process.
This opened my eyes.. big time.. I am glad I stumbled upon this before I bought my first resin printer.
Thanks. Glad it was helpful to you
Fantastic video! I've been trying to explain this to clients for YEARS now I'm just going to send them a link to this video..
When you print across multiple printers this becomes quite obvious but that's why I use different printers for different models but the M3 MAX prints are almost identical to the Jupiter as long as you dial in the resin!
Thank you for the round up at the end. I am shopping for a new printer since my move, and this sealed the deal.
So where is the best value? Lower “resolution “ and bigger volume?
Ive been looking at getting into resin and am glad to hear this; the seeming resolution creep had been a reason I’d held off
I’d thought 12k didn’t look much better than 8k but hadn’t looked into it yet, but am glad to know to look out specifically for the pixel size - makes the comparison a lot easier
I've been debating getting into the hobby, and well, that answered quite a few questions. Even some I didn't know I'd have. Thanks!
Currently researching my next 3D printer, as i want to print larger resin models, this was really useful.
While I appreciate the honesty up front of how this video is click bait and meant to drive views I don't appreciate the wasted time spent watching this video. Do the mini related content and printer reviews and follow-ups. I think your viewers understand screen resolution by now. I'll continue my sub.. but you really made me think about dropping it.
The point of this is so that I never have to do it again. You know I've said this same thing dosens of time. as much as I need to do in future is point people to this video. This is me putting it to bed.
So what is the lowest um resin printer? Any thing to do microfluidics?
So, since this.., we have had pixels as small as 16um, printers AVC around 18.. but what has been more important now, is bothe the lightsource and how dense the screen is in terms of allowing UV transmittance.
So all of this is udder nonsense
I do wonder about the precision and accuracy of the leadscrews and steppers in these things. It would be interesting if you did some experiments with a dial indicator.
I wonder too. I’m more in the group if “the brands should just tell us”, fir experiments, you should check out @Dennys Wang
I started looking at build volume and microns instead of resolution and it's blows my mind that some companies even put the screen resolution when their micron size is horrible.
Love it. I've been with you about the silliness of the K designation from the beginning. As for the AVC, you need a few of the other TH-camrs to start using it. That should help a ton.
Thanks, I’ll try to get more people onboard
Bought an Elegoo mars 4 ultra for it's 18x18um pixel size. Need the most detail possible for some small functional parts. Screen resolution only makes sense comparing the same sized screen for sure.
Thank you for the detailed explanation. So between the different K tiers, the main difference is actually the different screen sizes for definition within each K tier. I've had a FDM printer and just now have purchased a resin printer for improved resolution of my designs for molding. Picked up an ANYCUBIC Photon Mono M5s 12K for $293 to my door.
So as a more direct comparison. Look at pixel size on the screen rather than resolution of the screen.
A 13” 8k screen is significantly worse than a 6” 8k screen.
But even at those smaller pixel sizes. Light source is important too
Great video. Thanks for always sharing your opinion! Just ordered my first bottle of Wargammer resin. Excited to try it out!
Hope you enjoy it!
Looking forward to it being available in the states.
@dionysuscsw9405 you can order it for the states now. That's where I'm at
They need to market around pixel density
Hey @FauxHammer,
nice video. One thing that I still find worth to mention; the AVC of the DLP printers in the axial direction is not equal to the step height you set at the printer but is determined by the dose and the material absorption constant. I guess for a lot of resins that are not pitch black this value is >20µm. And that would be the AVC in my opinion. So it is even more complicated as it is material dependent.
That's more true with LCD than DLP. but I'm not trying to enforce brands to determine the actual printed voxel. I just want to help define clear marketing terms in contrast to the BS currently spouted.
I'm still working on helping people understand Exposure vs base exposure, if i ocvercomplicate videos with how pixels are formed. i'll loose my audience in a snooze fest quite rapidly
This is the best and only PRO-CONSUMER video I have ever watched... Thanks 🙌
Wow, that’s incredible feedback, thanks
Thank you so much for this video. In hindsight it makes total sense - This is something that in the past used to be discussed about smartphone screens, when most companies were still trying to figure out what the best ratio was and weird panel resolutions were coming out all the time :)
This really helped me in making a better informed decision, as I've been eyeing resin printers, and I was focusing too much on the screen resolution.
Cheers friend!
Oh, you did watch it! Thank you
@@FauxHammer I did! I’ve been following up on your past videos too, and btw kudos on your Poland trip. The community there is absurdly good and fun. Good people too! They deserve all the attention. Hope to see you showing more stuff like that, the people deserve it!
It would be useful a table with AVC resolution for all available resin printers (or at least for all ones you review)
Already done, In all the reviews, I just called it pixel size before.
What model are you showing at 15:15? I want that!! Thanks!
When did they make Tenjin bust and mini?
This appears to be the longest way possible of saying that bigger printing screens can double the AVC and a lower AVC means smaller “pixels” which means better details. So the mini 8k is somehow the best printer?
Nope, it’s not the best printer. There is no “best printer” in the resin space.
But yeah it’s just a long anti xK video
Thank you SO MUCH! Voxels all the way. Thank you so much for putting this video out there. You have said it so much better than I could have ever had. 👌🏼
Thank you for your video. I am new to the hobby and am currently looking for my first printer. I really thought the K meant something. Thanks for opening my eyes!
Really interesting and insightful. Been printing about fours years and learned something new. Thanks
Glad it was helpful!
Solid information and rant. The video took way to long to get rhe points across and the tone of voice used was off.
Dont worry ill keep watching your video.
Ok, I can accept that feedback and take it onboard
Should we apply a similar metric to resin types? It’s not uncommon to see 8k resin on the label. However, as you’ve pointed out in others videos, there are many factors to consider (detail, flexibility, etc). Overall nice video if a little drawn out (but I understand I wasn’t the target demographic and I just watched it for our god the big G algorithm).
We absolutely need a metric for resin accuracy. But it will be significantly harder to determine.
Very good points. I'm looking to get into hobby printing and love the fact that I'm now better informed thanks to you ;)
I fdm print now. Really enjoy the builds. I have been looking at resin and think this video answered questions I had about the machines. Thank you 👍 from me.
I was always skeptical about how the number of k of a screen was related to the pixel density. Thanks for the thorough clarity on this.
Could label things as Minimal Square Voxel. The smallest square (within 10%) that is possible with the printer. Could also do the do the average of the pixel square so if it's 19×24 then the rating would be 21.5 micron. If you do that you could borrow car engine terminology and have over square (x has more pixels) and under square (y has more pixels) to define how it is skewed. So the previous would be like 21.5 os if it was reversed, then 21.5 us, if it's like the mini 8k the 22 s (square). I don't know just a thought. But yeah this whole thing is a bit silly.
So then your point is not that XK Printers are irrelevant, just that it is irrelevant since DPI is a better way to express the result
am i correct? (or any metric to measure pixel density)
Yes, though as I said DOI is dots per inch, which is even more irrelevant. And PPi is also irrelevant because it’s different in the X and Y axis now
I completely agree with your points here but, would it be better for brands to just give us the diagonal pixel size (like when we look at TV sizes) and then the minium layer height the printer can do instead of the AVC? that way it won't matter if the pixels are square or rectangualr, you still get a value that is representative of the voxels the printer can produce.
damn, yeah that's smart...
but..... What about height? this works perfectly except it only works in 2-dimensional space. so we are back to measuring the screen of a printer, not the volume of a pixel.
@FauxHammer pair it with the minimum layer height the printer is reliably able to do (probably related to the steps of the z motor) and you have a reliable comparison for printer quality
@@FauxHammer thinking about it more, you could also measure the minium volume a printer could produce from a single pixel and its lowest possible layer height. call it something like the minimum voxel volume
@@larry84903 That is what I have done, and it's the AVC lol. The largest dimension of a single printable voxel, whether that;s X,Y or Z is the AVC
So im new to the hobby and looking at my first printer. Torn between a cheaper smaller mars 4 and the Saturn 3 budget isnt the issue between the two torn between getting the smaller models which should do everything i need but might need upgrading later and the saturn which might be my one stop shop that will carry me through my whole career any tips or experiences welcome
What are you printing and why?
To be honest, despite the AVC being better on the Mars 4. the Saturn 3 is the sharper and more detailed printer.
Ive been a dungeon master for almost a year ive been using roll20 but am making the switch to minis. So not jusr charater models but scenery like trees tables barrles rocks ect
Just commenting for the sake. I think this video has way too much waffle for beginners. Beginners need it to the point. I was 10 minutes in and still trying to find the evidence for your point. Whilst you’re correct in your point, just put it for the laymen. My 2p :)
Yep, good feedback, I’ve heard it loud and clear
Any resolution will still have layer lines.... , though Moving to monochrome screens was dramatic change
I’ve been saying this for quite a while, I realize that an 8K on a small printer was half the size of an 8K on double size printer. It’s very much like what I go through when I explain Photoshop and screen resolution to clients that say that you need 300 dpi you also have to tell me how many inches or millimeters the sizes
Pretty long video for just pointing out that the relevant metric is the absolute size of the pixel itself. But you get the point across.
Thanks, I wanted it to be a slow burn so that noobs can digest it in one watch.
I think this makes sense for LCD mSLA. However, we need a metric that shows why DLP gets better prints at lower resolution. And that has to do with the coherence of the light itself.
I think you can combine all of these things into the volume of the frustum (like a pyramid with the top chopped off) between where the pixel is masked and the projection that actually makes it to the previous layer.
Since people like to buy larger numbers, we just flip it (ie 1/v). This gives a number in 1/um3 they can market.
I’m sure there’s a way for them to rig it, because I just thought of it now
This was really great and useful as someone who is constantly looking for ways to quantify and potentially describe technical and artistic qualities. I would say while I support your push for better standardization terms (lets all rejoice USB stuff is finally looking at getting their shit together), I think it would be beneficial to have a follow up video or two down the line to break down the description of AVC again. This follow up needs to get to the point a bit faster than this video; I only watched all the way through since I’ve seen a few from the channel and trust you already. For the uninitiated, the’ll need something in depth but more to the point before their eyes glaze over
great feedback and taken on board thanks to your kind approach to putting it
The impression this gives off is that resolution doesn’t matter. It does with regards to screen size. Brands should just make the micron count more obvious. Also I’d rather see more printers with vat heaters and residue detection than perfectly square voxels.
Yeah, that was the point
I just clicked the video as I am just starting resin. I have a FDM, and won a resin printer. I don't think mine has a "K" sticker on it. Everything you stated is however very very true as the "K" metrics don't apply when as a user I can set the layer height. I went ahead and subbed as I can see the learning potential of your channel. Thank you.
You got my attention even with my ADHD. Thank you, for the information.
I completely understand voxels without an explanation since I use them in my 3d work. I fully supported the AVC standard for 3d resin printers.