My reading of the Eddas, which is by no means expert, gave me the impression that elves and dwarves were basically the same, so in my D&D game, I have humans unable to tell the difference between them. Human NPCs regularly call elf PCs dwarves and vice versa. With hilarious results.
"I have been stuck behind this Subaru going, like, 20 under the limit, for miles upon miles with nowhere to pass him. Could this be... CHRISTIAN INFLUENCE?" What a way to start a video.
From a Norwegian perspective, it's funny to think that someone would take "like a þuss" to mean large. When we talk about "tusser og troll", the distinction between them generally is that the trolls can be large as trees or even mountains, while tusser are much smaller. I don't know how much the modern folklore correspond to the Norse idea of them, but when I think of tusser, I think of small goblin-like trolls living just underground.
After reading some of the Norse myths and trying to figure out how big the gods were in comparison to the giants, I came to the conclusion that everyone in these stories is as big or as small as each story needs them to be. And on the subject of species, I used to think of the gods and giants as different species. Now, I see them much more like Huns and Goths than like separate entries in The Monster Manual.
The bogeyman comparison is probably the best one I’ve ever heard for describing the way people use to think about dvergar and þursar ans álfar and suchlike.
@@jakekarr9733 and "wearenotamused": It is quite obvious that Christian ideas, or maybe more appropriately Christian lore, influenced Nordic world views (and even ethics) to some extent. Óðinn (Odin) hung on a tree for three nights, for example, in order to gain wisdom or whatever it was, fairly certainly a faint echo of the Crucifixion. Long after the "fall" of the western Roman Empire it continued in existence in people's minds. So did Christ, chiefly as a victorious warlord in command of angelic legions in shining armor (as one poet put it, "engla fylki himna þengils"; the angelic host of the heavenly king). Ideas prior to Christian influences are very hard to discern and separate from a Christian-influenced worldview. They must of course have been there, although one should definitely not be certain of anything like a coherent system, organizationally or dogmatically comparable to Christianity.
@@ludvikkaaber3222 I'm not convinced Odin's hanging is influenced by Christianity at all. Leaders sacrificing part of their body for greater knowledge for mankind is a motive found from central Europe to the Caucasus. It very clearly predate contact with Christianity. The same can be said for dying to gain knowledge.
@@ludvikkaaber3222 Odin hung on Yggdrasil for nine (9) days and nine (9) nights ... changing the number to three to fit the Jesus story is indeed Christian influence!
You know there was always that one guy who when a poem was being sung or a story told and the dwarf wasn't short would say, "Wait, wait, I thought..." And the crowd would yell, "NOT AGAIN! Shut up Bjørn!"
I love an advert with some self-confidence. Isn't that a great beard? Here is a sword. It is available. Web address. They know anyone who wants that is going to visit their webshop instantly.
I think that's a very fair assessment; I knew I could detect a certain inconsistency of philology on this subject. Obsession with categorization has done more damage than it has been worth on the matter of the preservation of culture, especially in the context of an environment where a tradition or superstition has evolved.
This was obviously a topic that got a lot of interest, and there were two good papers in the comments that got a bit buried that do have a lot more good information and academic speculation on the nature of Norse dwarves in our medieval sources, so it's pinned here: if anyone is interested in reading more on the topic, these are some good sources. (Also thanks to commenter Another Elvis for contributing the second paper.) “The Hole: Problems in Medieval Dwarfology,” by Ármann Jakobsson: www.academia.edu/1348118/_The_Hole_Problems_in_Medieval_Dwarfology_Arv_61_2005_53_76 "Recognizing a dvergr: Physical Status and External Appearance of dvergar in Medieval Nordic Sources (8th-13th century)," by Ugnius Mikučionis: www.researchgate.net/publication/318461000_Recognizing_a_dvergr_Physical_Status_and_External_Appearance_of_dvergar_in_Medieval_Nordic_Sources_8th-13th_century
I first fell in love with Norse mythology thanks to a book called "In the Days of Giants." As an adult, though, I came to appreciate the difference between Gulliver's Travels, with its consistent satirical human viewpoint on giant and tiny people, and the much more slippery concept of the jotun, who can be hilariously big and then human-sized in the same story. I was so pleased you addressed this.
Really enjoyed both this and the previous video with Armann Jakobsson. I have to say I much prefer both the way modern people think and our current concept of Dwarves and Elves, but it has been fascinating listening to you explore what these terms may have meant to the Norse.
Mechanical and categorical thinking easily and often leads to delusion though. As he said, it's merely a map, a culture-conditioned one too not even something pure. It doesn't allow for subtlety or layered, freeform thought. It makes it incredibly easy to mentally dominate others or for disembodied concepts to do so.
Great video, but how about this line from Baldrs funeral in the Gylfanning. At least the dwarf is described as smaller than Thor: "Then Thor stood by and hallowed the pyre with Mjöllnir; and before his feet ran a certain dwarf which was named Litr; Thor kicked at him with his foot and thrust him into the fire, and he burned."
Maybe "dwarf in size" meant just using dwarf as a bad thing and not directly related to height, overstretching but who knows who knows like "he is a dwarf in mind" "he is a dwarf in strength", guess the former is more plausible than the latter, but just maybe that was it
Interesting idea. Which reminds me that in my dialect of German, "letz" (probably cognate with "little") can be used to mean "little" but also "bad", and even "sick".
Tanaquil Z this brings to mind the popular division of British Isles fairies into two “courts”-the Seelie and Unseelie, which are cognate with the English word “silly” itself (I believe from something like saelig in Old English meaning “blessed”). I believe that tradition only goes back to the 19th century or so, but it’s still fascinating-convergent (linguistic) evolution?
I’ve invoked and emphasized the same notion of “Linnaeanism” in conversations like the one I had with a friend who who said a wyvern isn’t a dragon (“why are they called dragons when they have only two legs in Skyrim?”). I’m not positive on the etymology of the word but am pretty sure the definition of wyvern that’s come down to us did so via heraldry, and even that tradition as an institution well post-dates Norse myth and a lot of foundational dragon stories. Many creatures described as dragons in early myth (including Norse) aren’t even described as having wings, and I don’t think there’s a single Viking-era depiction of a dragon that includes wings. The number of legs also varies. So we’ve got in dragons a similar situation to that of dwarves, elves, or trolls.
I'm pretty sure the dragon/wyvern distinction is limited specifically to English heraldry. (also even if you want to go with a strict "scientific" categorization, saying a wyvern isn't a dragon feels kinda like saying a pigeon isn't a bird) Not a visual depiction, but I believe Nidhogg is specifically described as having wings in Voluspa. On the other hand, Fafnir is described as creeping around and shaking the ground as he goes places, so he's clearly wingless.
Erik Due I’m curious to hear what Dr. Crawford would have to say about this, as my study of Norse myth and philology is much more casual than I’d like it to be, but I’m inclined to deem details like the appearance of dragons as not particularly “trustworthy” coming from the pen of Snorri Sturluson, at least insofar as they reflect pagan Norse tradition. From what I know it’s widely accepted that there was indeed some Christian influence in the case of his writings. I wasn’t aware of this example so I appreciate you pointing it out. It also seems to support my view considering Nidhogg is such a chthonic figure, gnawing at the world tree’s roots and having so many underworld connotations. His having wings seems a rather after-the-fact addition, don’t you think?
@@lughlongarm76 Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means an expert, I just happened to remember something about Niddhogg flying in Völuspá. The bit about the wings seems to reoccur in all three versions of the poem, not just the prose Edda, and while the other two were written down later than Snorri's version, the consensus seems to be that they're not just copying it. From what I can google, the poem itself is usually dated to sometime in the 10th century - it might be knowingly or unknowingly borrowing some Christian imagery for Nidhogg that wasn't part of the myth originally, but it seems unlikely to be Snorri's invention.
My grandfather would describe someone who looked sick as "puny". This had no connotation of being small but was specifically meant to say they looked unwell. If a similar etymology were in play, it could even just mean dwarves were ugly.
Whoa, great timing. I was just discussing the size of Dwarves with one of my friends after I recently read Neil Gaimans Norse Mythology. I noticed that no where in the stories were the Dwarves considered short so I was then wondering why the attribute became attributed to them in the first place... 🤷♂️
Very interesting video. I wonder about a connection between these Germanic concepts and Celtic concepts of fairies, elves, dwarves, and their relationship with magic, nature, and the dead.
In England and Scotland, Elf and Fairy is completely interchangeable in folklore. Also in England trolls and elves can sometimes be interchangeable. Elves, dwarves and trolls may have a common origin that regionally diverged over time. Some folklorists theorise the existence of a pre-Celtic religion across northern European based around a mysterious supernatural race.
@@Fiddling_while_Rome_burns Well the Celts and Germanic tribes share an origin in the east. So a shared idea of dwarves and elves makes sense. They also heavily intermingled around the Rhine region. Then again, the concept of little spirits that hide in the wild and possibly kidnap children, that are hard to see either by a fuzzy outline or straight up invisibility is found in I think every continent. It's not just a Celtic or Germanic thing, it's a very basic concept for humans.
Given the known association of dwarves with sickness and misfortune, is it possible that someone being "dwarven in height" actually meant something like "ill-grown"? I.e. "his height has been affected by dwarves" rather than "his height is similar to that of a dwarf." Or do the linguistics not support that interpretation?
could it possibly be shortness of memory if it has relations to dementia? a reference to older age possibly? especially with the reference to "pale around the nostrils, like you spent the night with a corpse." if theyre the most excellent craftsmen, old experienced workers?
I realize this is an older video by now, but could the OE gedwæsnes, be related to the somewhat archaic "Dvask" in Danish (possibly norwegian/swedish), meaning lazy, hazed, dazed?
If dwarves were indeed traditionally seen as a subset of elves, couldn't it be proven via the following lemma: if anybody is specifically called a dwarf in the text, it is either to show that they posess some specific attributes of the 'dark elves', like short stature, the ability to turn into a beast at will and to stone under the sun, which have some significance to the storyteller and/or his audience, - or as a poetic tool for alliteration and such like?
With the inherent links between Elves and Dwarves could there have been a mistranslation into writing that changed "higher" and "lower" into "tall" and "short"?
Lit must have been quite short, being kicked accidentally into Baldur's? funeral pyre, or some fire thereabouts by I forget whom. One of those odd Norse "mentionables". That was in The Deluding of Gylfi. Fun book.
Lucius Avenus That was by Thor, although I am pretty sure it was deliberate. Thor was upset by the behaviour of the jotunn (giant) at the funeral and I think Litr was just in the way or got in front of him and so he vented his frustration.
@@gorilly3023 Litr!! That all rings a bell. Ta. He must have been short though, or very little, maybe like a football? What was your impression? Probably time to give it another read.
Lucius Avenus I would imagine it supports the argument that there was a general notion of Dwarfs being short, but then again I suppose Thor could do the same thing to a regular sized person given his other achievements.
No. To get that initial *d in PG you would need to start with PIE *dʰ, which would have remained /dʰ/ in Sanskrit and wound up as F in Latin (probably by way of H first: _ʰ→h→f), if they retained the word at all. It's possible for Sanskrit "dʰvaras" (dʰwaras) to be related, but not those others, and there doesn't seem to be a matching one in Latin. The Greek outcome of PIE *dʰ would be /tʰ/, which later became /θ/, which might make it seem like "theos" could be related, but other aspects of that word give away that it's actually from another separate root. The remaining words you mentioned other than "devil", and more, are related to each other but not to the ones in that last paragraph. To follow what's written below, keep in mind that the basic definition of a PIE root word is its consonants. Different grammatical forms of a word could have an *e or an *o dropped in the middle among the consonants, or no inserted vowel at all, which could force certain kinds of consonants (like R, L, M, and N) to act like vowels instead. The consonant sounds that we would now spell with a W or a Y, as in "wander" and "yellow", could thus sometimes end up acting like the vowels "u" and "i". To show that they could switch roles but we need to primarily treat them as fundamentally consonants by nature, they can be marked with a little curved line below, as in "i̯" and "u̯". (You might be reading this in a font that displaces those marks too far to the right; they're meant to be directly below the letters.) "u̯" could easily be represented as "w" instead, but that brings up a problem with how to represent "i̯" as mostly a consonant. It's normally Y in English, but that's also sometimes a vowel anyway, and it's often J outside English, but that looks like something completely different to people who are used to English, so neither option really communicates the idea very well. So I'm sticking with representing both of these PIE consonants-that-sometimes-impersonate-vowels as just vowels with funny extra marks, even though the way they actually worked in PIE was really more consonanty. Anyway, back to the words you brought up... *di̯u̯-, meaning something like "sky" or "daylight", or a god/personification of the sky, or an entity or group of entities that live(s) in the sky or come(s) from the sky, is a rare example of a PIE root word that seems to have allowed its core vowel to get dropped into either of the two interior positions between the three consonants instead of just always in one place. This yielded *dei̯u̯- or *di̯eu̯- (and *di̯ou̯- from normal PIE *e/o equivalence will also make an appearance below, although *doi̯u̯- seems to be lost). There might seem to be a loose pattern that the former is more likely to refer to the natural thing (sky/day/light) and the latter is more likely to refer to one or more living persons/creatures associated with it, but it's not consistent. The latter also could sometimes be followed up with PIE *ph₂ter ("father") to form something like "sky father" (descriptive phrase) or "Dyeus the Father" (name & title/role). (The final "-s" or "-os" in *di̯eu̯s or *di̯eu̯os is not the only kind of ending it can receive, but it's the most common.) In Sanskrit, short vowels become "a" and *h₂ becomes "i", but not much else happens here, so the name ends up as "Dyaus" or "Dyaus Pitar" (with the Y as a consonant, not a vowel), a god who is only mentioned six times in the Vedas but is the father of many other gods (maybe all, I'm not sure). When not used as a name, other forms of it also end up as "divasa" (day) and "deva" (god). In Greek, the awkward consonant cluster "dy" (remember, that Y is a consonant, not a vowel) becomes "dz", then "z" in "Zeus". In Latin, the phrase ends up as "Diu-Piter" and then "Iupiter", which gives us "Jupiter". Standard PIE *e/o switching also yielded another form of the same name by *di̯ou̯es → diowes → ioves → Jove/Jovian/jovial. (The consonant "w" always ends up as "v" in Latin.) When not used as a name, *deiwos also ends up as both "divus" and "deus" (both meaning "god"), and *diewos ends up as "dies" (day). In Proto-Germanic, PIE *d becomes *t, which is related to the fact I gave earlier, that PG *d doesn't come from PIE *d; it comes from PIE *dʰ. That plus the conversion of "-os" or "-us" endings to "-az" gives us "Tiwaz" as the Proto-Germanic version of the theonym. In English, that ends up as the "Tues" in "Tuesday". In Norse, the "i" and "u" effects merge into a single vowel that's like saying "i" or "ee" with your tongue and "u" or "oo" with your lips at the same time, like a French "u" or German "ü", represented in Norse with "y". PG "-az" endings also become Norse "-r", so we finally see the equivalent name show up in Norse as "Tyr". But Tyr doesn't seem very kingly or patriarchal/ancestral in Norse mythology, so either he lost one or both of those traits in the Germanic branch well before Germanic people started writing this stuff, or he never had one or both of them and his counterpart(s) gained one or both in some of the other branches. English "day" and "devil" are unrelated to any of this and to each other. "Day" traces back to a PIE word that, as you can infer from what I wrote above, started with *dʰ-, not *d-. And its cognates in other Germanic languages have a G where our Y is, from a Proto-Germanic *g, from a Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰ, which is not reflected in any of the words I've written about so far. (English had a G→Y conversion event after splitting from other Germanic languages, as also seen in auge→eye, geolu→yellow, and geard→yard, although we also imported "garden" from our cousins afterward.) We imported Greek "diabolos", from which we then got both "devil" and "diabolic(al)", well after the d→t and dʰ→d conversions, so the "d" stayed the same. In Greek it was a compound word that seems to be from a phrase depicting somebody who stands across from you and tries to harm you by throwing things at you, including not just projectile weapons but also accusations. It mostly came to English-speakers' attention because Greek translations of the Old Testament had used it for Hebrew "šaṭan", meaning "opponent, adversary, accuser".
I tend to believe there was a physical and notable difference between dwarves, alves, giants, etc. There could also be differences in social traits in other examples. (like Trolls... comparable today with words some use, perhaps slurs, to describe people with different ideologies or behaviors) ... I often wonder if it's possible the ancient Norse ever encountered or interacted with people of a different racial origin. Consider Asians... how would they have been described? The silk road was quite extensive and dates back to at least 130 BC, as an 'official' route. Could it have been a route also used before it became widely used? Consider also the Tocharians, who were people 'out of their element', but would have certainly interacted with people different then themselves. As for the boogeyman example... Those who write history are the ones who describe it. Lindisfarne 793. Those who claimed to be eye witnesses of the raid claimed there were fiery dragons in the sky. Good example of the boogeyman routine. I suppose it's human nature in some to vilify another, or depict another in a less than desirable light.
Also in Norwegian (dverg). However, it doesn't mean that the meaning of the word hasn't changed. As Dr. Crawford suggests. Same word, different meaning. Could also have related to psychological traits and not physical ones. We use the term short sighted when someone didn't think things through. Not just when needing glasses...
I just wanna know why the dwarves and elves seem to be the same in the Norse world and sagas cuz I have had troubles on figuring out which is which when I've read what little I've had read
Matt Flatt It is primarily because Snorri refers to Swarthy, Dark or Black Elves (Svartalfar) that dwell in Svartalfheim, but then goes on to describe the residents of Svartalfheim as dwarves. Stories associated with the dwarves, such as Loki meeting Andvari or the sons of Ivaldi and the dwarfs who craft Fenrir’s chain, all occur in the world of the Black Elves.
The map is not the territory. The original quote comes from a Polish expert in semantics named Alfred Korzybski. But yes Matt Colville used it as well. I actually found Dr Crawford's channel based upon a recommendation by Matt Colville.
Myself, I like the theory that Norse "dwarves" (or alternatively svartalfar) were actually modeled on the Rhineland Germans who made a lot of the swords they used (my ancestors, so in Norse terms I'm a dwarf :-)). Who, yes, would in period have averaged a bit shorter and stockier than the Scandinavians but with mostly overlapping measurements.
I can see that elves and dwarves can be the same, especially with the extreme connection to nature (being animals, speaking from rocks, etc.) Are they shapeshifters or are they the animal itself? Gotta look into it. By the wayside, I am lovin the Wanderer's Havamal. I'm reading it to my 11 month old son. Thanks, Dr. Crawford.
Jacob Berry They are shapeshifters. They were shaped or grew into the forms of man according to Voluspa, but according to some stories they had these abilities. Otr can seemingly take the form of an Otter at will and Fafnir originally has a human/dwarf form before taking the shape of a dragon to guard his hoard.
Perhaps the idea that dwarves were made short by Christian influence is related to the idea of “the little people” in other areas of the world. For example in Ireland where the great Sídhe eventually became tiny fairies due to Christian culture. So, Christian influence would not be so far fetched. But that doesn’t seem to have occurred in this case from the evidence you’ve presented. It seems dwarves we’re already perceived as a bit short.
I have always thought of the word Dwarf in old Norse meaning 'stumped' or even 'handicapped'. So it could refer to any shortcoming; and Dwarves themselves could be people/creatures with shortcomings, or the personification of a shortcoming, or maybe ugly or devious/cunning (maybe purposefully multiple of those at the same time). 'Dvergr of Voxt' would simply mean 'stumped' or 'handicapped' in height/stature. So I think dwarves aren't (supposed to be) short in myth, but visualizing them as short is still an accurate representation of their 'physically/mentally challenged' meaning. Would love to hear your thoughts on this Dr Crawford. Keep the video's coming.
Key point about the difference between modern and mediaeval modes of thought. I wonder if elf and dwarf weren’t so much racial labels as names associated with their main activities. A person is a dwarf if they’re a fine crafts person and an elf if they’re also nice to the Aesir?
Hmm.. So "Dwarf" was a term given to classify a person based not so much on physical characteristics so much as personal affectation; someone who was or looked like someone who hid away (lived in rocks), was crafty or knowledgeable in a making things sense, perhaps obsessively so, and probably not heroic in stature or build. In other words (specifically modern terms), a nerd. So in the Old Norse world, to be a troll meant you were homely and if you were a dwarf it meant you were a nerd. Is that about right?
I don't think so. These are all supernatural beings who live in other realms. On a psychological level the fact that there aren't distinct boundaries between these types of being makes it clear they represent chaos and the unknown. Elves aren't much more defined than spirits of the air and forests. Dvurgar and Svartalf are spirits of the earth with the Jotunn being the "big threat" of chaos "outside the walls" with whom Thor is perpetually in conflict manifesting order from chaos with his flawed workmans hammer. Finally there are the great beasts like the midgard serpent which represent the chaos of the natural world.
@@AJSTITAN14 I would think that the concepts of supernatural and chaos as we currently understand them would not be exactly accurate to the Old Norse way of looking at things either, though. They'd have probably more simplistically been "not we" and "not controlled by us", respectively. Of course, the shaman and the skald will see things in a different way to the less erudite and esoteric farmer and fisherman, let alone a political leader, so worldview and wordview, as it were, may be quantitatively subjective, no? (As a formally failed former poetry major, I offer mostly only fields of ignorance and grains of uncertainty, but earnestly so.)
@@LordGrotesk I never said they considered chaos and order in a formal philosophy. A troll is a supernatural being not merely an ugly person. After all a ghost is a troll. The essence of you question was "what do these terms mean?" They are not simple adjectives they are representations of the unknown.
I believe the biblical use of dwarf (dak) refers more to being frail and skinny or having a hunched back/ spinal injury. It might be safe to say it's not related to being a short king or a mythical creature? Let's meet halfway and just say it means to have a dropped suspension. 💁
Martha S It’s in the middle of a list of birth defects, injuries, and illnesses, so I think it’s safe to say it’s not referring to a Tolkien-style species.
Personal theory (not based on any actual fact): memory of Neanderthals live on in Jotunn in Norse myths. Most cultures I am aware of have legends of giants/people who were here before (Inuit have Dorset culture, Hebrew have the half angels, etc). My understanding, the highest concentration of Neanderthal genetics is within the Germanic people. Yes this concept clashes with Jotunn not necessarily being physically large. I picture it more as "other people that were not like us that we either killed, married, or *ahem* fornicated with".
Neanderthals may be too much of a stretch, but this might be a memory of the first anatomically modern humans that inhabited Europe (who used to have much more Neanderthalese ancestry than modern Europeans). Yet even more probably this points to the later, intermixed descendants of those first Europeans: the Sámi.
@@plciferpffer3048 They're not, but they came to Scandinavia before the Indo-Europeans. They've been here (or their ancestors at least) probably as long as the Basques.
@@M-CH_ In what way? The Christian concept of hell, punishment and heaven is strongly a middle eastern construct. It's found in most religions from that area. Think of Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Judaism, Islam, Manichaeism, Christianity, etc. The idea of Germanic/Norse Hel doesn't have the virtuous reward structure nor the punishment of 'sinners'. I wouldn't really compare it with any nearby religion except maybe Slavic paganism. Even the more nordic Finno-Ugric and Baltic religions are quite different from Germanic, having a much more free flow of 'spirits' and souls into the mortal world.
We don't think like folks that lived in the viking age. I have never understood those who want to reconstruct Asatru faith. I am attracted to the Norse gods. I know probably for ideas that are modern.
I wonder if it's just an extrapolation made by later readers? Especially artists. It seems like it might be hard for someone not times into mythical dream logic to comprehend (and especially illustrate) four full-grown men living in the same boulder without assuming they must just be tiny And/or those later readers might be conflating them with later, unquestionably small folkloric gnomes and faeries with similar habits like living in rocks and offering wondrous gifts, that may or may not actually be related to figures from Norse myth
I wondered if the ancient dwarves (Zwerge) were the Neanderthal, especially since they existed the same time with humans at one time before going extinct.
Some serious vine energy in that intro
My reading of the Eddas, which is by no means expert, gave me the impression that elves and dwarves were basically the same, so in my D&D game, I have humans unable to tell the difference between them. Human NPCs regularly call elf PCs dwarves and vice versa. With hilarious results.
"I have been stuck behind this Subaru going, like, 20 under the limit, for miles upon miles with nowhere to pass him. Could this be... CHRISTIAN INFLUENCE?"
What a way to start a video.
Is the driver a dwarf?
Is the driver a dwarf?
I nearly did a spit take at the beginning
From a Norwegian perspective, it's funny to think that someone would take "like a þuss" to mean large. When we talk about "tusser og troll", the distinction between them generally is that the trolls can be large as trees or even mountains, while tusser are much smaller. I don't know how much the modern folklore correspond to the Norse idea of them, but when I think of tusser, I think of small goblin-like trolls living just underground.
After reading some of the Norse myths and trying to figure out how big the gods were in comparison to the giants, I came to the conclusion that everyone in these stories is as big or as small as each story needs them to be. And on the subject of species, I used to think of the gods and giants as different species. Now, I see them much more like Huns and Goths than like separate entries in The Monster Manual.
The bogeyman comparison is probably the best one I’ve ever heard for describing the way people use to think about dvergar and þursar ans álfar and suchlike.
That is hilarious! Christian influence! Hahaha. Yea probably was.
Or German tourist in Norway influence
@@jakekarr9733 and "wearenotamused": It is quite obvious that Christian ideas, or maybe more appropriately Christian lore, influenced Nordic world views (and even ethics) to some extent. Óðinn (Odin) hung on a tree for three nights, for example, in order to gain wisdom or whatever it was, fairly certainly a faint echo of the Crucifixion. Long after the "fall" of the western Roman Empire it continued in existence in people's minds. So did Christ, chiefly as a victorious warlord in command of angelic legions in shining armor (as one poet put it, "engla fylki himna þengils"; the angelic host of the heavenly king). Ideas prior to Christian influences are very hard to discern and separate from a Christian-influenced worldview. They must of course have been there, although one should definitely not be certain of anything like a coherent system, organizationally or dogmatically comparable to Christianity.
@@ludvikkaaber3222 I'm not convinced Odin's hanging is influenced by Christianity at all. Leaders sacrificing part of their body for greater knowledge for mankind is a motive found from central Europe to the Caucasus. It very clearly predate contact with Christianity. The same can be said for dying to gain knowledge.
This will now become my go-to response whenever stuck behind someone who doesn't know how to drive ... thank you for this!
@@ludvikkaaber3222 Odin hung on Yggdrasil for nine (9) days and nine (9) nights ... changing the number to three to fit the Jesus story is indeed Christian influence!
You know there was always that one guy who when a poem was being sung or a story told and the dwarf wasn't short would say, "Wait, wait, I thought..." And the crowd would yell, "NOT AGAIN! Shut up Bjørn!"
Bjørn was the first to sport a neckbeard.
I love an advert with some self-confidence. Isn't that a great beard? Here is a sword. It is available. Web address. They know anyone who wants that is going to visit their webshop instantly.
Alvíssmál is a lot funnier when you imagine Alvíss as three feet tall.
I think that's a very fair assessment; I knew I could detect a certain inconsistency of philology on this subject. Obsession with categorization has done more damage than it has been worth on the matter of the preservation of culture, especially in the context of an environment where a tradition or superstition has evolved.
30 seconds in and I was already cracking up. Excellent information, Dr. Crawford, thank you!
That intro alone deserved an early like, good sir.
Seriously it was hilarious! Someone please make a meme out of it!
Fantastic work, incredibly well spoken. Ive always been fascinated by the dwarves of the myths.
This was obviously a topic that got a lot of interest, and there were two good papers in the comments that got a bit buried that do have a lot more good information and academic speculation on the nature of Norse dwarves in our medieval sources, so it's pinned here: if anyone is interested in reading more on the topic, these are some good sources. (Also thanks to commenter Another Elvis for contributing the second paper.)
“The Hole: Problems in Medieval Dwarfology,” by Ármann Jakobsson: www.academia.edu/1348118/_The_Hole_Problems_in_Medieval_Dwarfology_Arv_61_2005_53_76
"Recognizing a dvergr: Physical Status and External Appearance of dvergar in Medieval Nordic Sources (8th-13th century)," by Ugnius Mikučionis:
www.researchgate.net/publication/318461000_Recognizing_a_dvergr_Physical_Status_and_External_Appearance_of_dvergar_in_Medieval_Nordic_Sources_8th-13th_century
I first fell in love with Norse mythology thanks to a book called "In the Days of Giants." As an adult, though, I came to appreciate the difference between Gulliver's Travels, with its consistent satirical human viewpoint on giant and tiny people, and the much more slippery concept of the jotun, who can be hilariously big and then human-sized in the same story. I was so pleased you addressed this.
Dwarves live within things. Elves live behind things. But I don't know what lives behind us.
"You don't think like a medieval person" I laughed out loud! Perfect.
Thank you for clarifying this subject!!
Really enjoyed both this and the previous video with Armann Jakobsson. I have to say I much prefer both the way modern people think and our current concept of Dwarves and Elves, but it has been fascinating listening to you explore what these terms may have meant to the Norse.
Mechanical and categorical thinking easily and often leads to delusion though. As he said, it's merely a map, a culture-conditioned one too not even something pure. It doesn't allow for subtlety or layered, freeform thought. It makes it incredibly easy to mentally dominate others or for disembodied concepts to do so.
coffee definitely came out my nose at your intro
I'm not alone at drinking my morning coffee and watching Jackson Crawford before going to work.
I can definitely see Dwarf being a type of Elf. In Celtic mythology; Faerie is a broader term.
Kinda like the Irish Sidhe or the Japanese yokai
Great video, but how about this line from Baldrs funeral in the Gylfanning. At least the dwarf is described as smaller than Thor: "Then Thor stood by and hallowed the pyre with Mjöllnir; and before his feet ran a certain dwarf which was named Litr; Thor kicked at him with his foot and thrust him into the fire, and he burned."
There's that dwarf that Thor kicked into Baldur's funeral pyre. I'm assuming that one was pretty small.
Or Thor is very big
Or Thor is strong? That can't be a novel idea, can it?
@@robinviden9148 Yeah, but it doesn't say "threw", I've always assumed kicked implies the dwarf was little.
@@jonstfrancis You know, physical strength isn't just your arms. Legs are often stronger.
Maybe "dwarf in size" meant just using dwarf as a bad thing and not directly related to height, overstretching but who knows who knows like "he is a dwarf in mind" "he is a dwarf in strength", guess the former is more plausible than the latter, but just maybe that was it
Interesting idea. Which reminds me that in my dialect of German, "letz" (probably cognate with "little") can be used to mean "little" but also "bad", and even "sick".
Gedwæsnes - in Dutch "dwaas" means foolish or silly
Tanaquil Z this brings to mind the popular division of British Isles fairies into two “courts”-the Seelie and Unseelie, which are cognate with the English word “silly” itself (I believe from something like saelig in Old English meaning “blessed”). I believe that tradition only goes back to the 19th century or so, but it’s still fascinating-convergent (linguistic) evolution?
I’ve invoked and emphasized the same notion of “Linnaeanism” in conversations like the one I had with a friend who who said a wyvern isn’t a dragon (“why are they called dragons when they have only two legs in Skyrim?”). I’m not positive on the etymology of the word but am pretty sure the definition of wyvern that’s come down to us did so via heraldry, and even that tradition as an institution well post-dates Norse myth and a lot of foundational dragon stories. Many creatures described as dragons in early myth (including Norse) aren’t even described as having wings, and I don’t think there’s a single Viking-era depiction of a dragon that includes wings. The number of legs also varies. So we’ve got in dragons a similar situation to that of dwarves, elves, or trolls.
I'm pretty sure the dragon/wyvern distinction is limited specifically to English heraldry.
(also even if you want to go with a strict "scientific" categorization, saying a wyvern isn't a dragon feels kinda like saying a pigeon isn't a bird)
Not a visual depiction, but I believe Nidhogg is specifically described as having wings in Voluspa. On the other hand, Fafnir is described as creeping around and shaking the ground as he goes places, so he's clearly wingless.
Erik Due I’m curious to hear what Dr. Crawford would have to say about this, as my study of Norse myth and philology is much more casual than I’d like it to be, but I’m inclined to deem details like the appearance of dragons as not particularly “trustworthy” coming from the pen of Snorri Sturluson, at least insofar as they reflect pagan Norse tradition. From what I know it’s widely accepted that there was indeed some Christian influence in the case of his writings. I wasn’t aware of this example so I appreciate you pointing it out. It also seems to support my view considering Nidhogg is such a chthonic figure, gnawing at the world tree’s roots and having so many underworld connotations. His having wings seems a rather after-the-fact addition, don’t you think?
@@lughlongarm76 Don't get me wrong, I'm by no means an expert, I just happened to remember something about Niddhogg flying in Völuspá.
The bit about the wings seems to reoccur in all three versions of the poem, not just the prose Edda, and while the other two were written down later than Snorri's version, the consensus seems to be that they're not just copying it.
From what I can google, the poem itself is usually dated to sometime in the 10th century - it might be knowingly or unknowingly borrowing some Christian imagery for Nidhogg that wasn't part of the myth originally, but it seems unlikely to be Snorri's invention.
The average height of American men is 5 foot 9 inches. I assume that different ethnic groups have their own averages.
My grandfather would describe someone who looked sick as "puny". This had no connotation of being small but was specifically meant to say they looked unwell. If a similar etymology were in play, it could even just mean dwarves were ugly.
Pejoratives like dork and twerp are probably related terms, and don't mean short.
That's certainly a pet theory of mine,
that not everybody is going to share and that's fine.
6:16 -Dr. Jackson Crawford
I guess that means the Dwemer in Elder Scrolls are probably the most accurate depiction
Whoa, great timing. I was just discussing the size of Dwarves with one of my friends after I recently read Neil Gaimans Norse Mythology. I noticed that no where in the stories were the Dwarves considered short so I was then wondering why the attribute became attributed to them in the first place... 🤷♂️
I think tolkien might have something to do with it or D&D.
Very interesting video. I wonder about a connection between these Germanic concepts and Celtic concepts of fairies, elves, dwarves, and their relationship with magic, nature, and the dead.
In England and Scotland, Elf and Fairy is completely interchangeable in folklore. Also in England trolls and elves can sometimes be interchangeable. Elves, dwarves and trolls may have a common origin that regionally diverged over time. Some folklorists theorise the existence of a pre-Celtic religion across northern European based around a mysterious supernatural race.
@@Fiddling_while_Rome_burns Well the Celts and Germanic tribes share an origin in the east. So a shared idea of dwarves and elves makes sense. They also heavily intermingled around the Rhine region.
Then again, the concept of little spirits that hide in the wild and possibly kidnap children, that are hard to see either by a fuzzy outline or straight up invisibility is found in I think every continent. It's not just a Celtic or Germanic thing, it's a very basic concept for humans.
' Well, that was not short. like me.' ive been called small, words.
For the Wanderers Havamal one voice reads the text one reads the commentary... That's how most audio books do it with such texts.
Sounds like the dwarf in the maten MCU was suite spot on :O
Given the known association of dwarves with sickness and misfortune, is it possible that someone being "dwarven in height" actually meant something like "ill-grown"? I.e. "his height has been affected by dwarves" rather than "his height is similar to that of a dwarf." Or do the linguistics not support that interpretation?
Then why do all the cognate words in modern germanic languages refer to a short person?
could it possibly be shortness of memory if it has relations to dementia? a reference to older age possibly? especially with the reference to "pale around the nostrils, like you spent the night with a corpse." if theyre the most excellent craftsmen, old experienced workers?
Pejorative terms like dork and twerp might be related but don't mean short.
I was leveling my Dwarf on WoW and watching this
I realize this is an older video by now, but could the OE gedwæsnes, be related to the somewhat archaic "Dvask" in Danish (possibly norwegian/swedish), meaning lazy, hazed, dazed?
Does it have something to do with the number 2? The Dw- part.
Hey, man, have you seen the movie Midsommar? If you have, what are your thoughts about it? I hope you can make a video about it in the future
Woo! You reference that DnD and WoW, Crawford!
The geek is strong in this one
Ok cool you seem to share my thoughts
If dwarves were indeed traditionally seen as a subset of elves, couldn't it be proven via the following lemma: if anybody is specifically called a dwarf in the text, it is either to show that they posess some specific attributes of the 'dark elves', like short stature, the ability to turn into a beast at will and to stone under the sun, which have some significance to the storyteller and/or his audience, - or as a poetic tool for alliteration and such like?
With the inherent links between Elves and Dwarves could there have been a mistranslation into writing that changed "higher" and "lower" into "tall" and "short"?
I'm wondering if it could also mean physically deformed in the same way that we percieve hunchbacks as being smaller due to the curved spine?
A bite size dwarf sounds so cute.
Hiiiii
@@anniemaymcneely2013 ?
Lit must have been quite short, being kicked accidentally into Baldur's? funeral pyre, or some fire thereabouts by I forget whom. One of those odd Norse "mentionables". That was in The Deluding of Gylfi. Fun book.
Lucius Avenus That was by Thor, although I am pretty sure it was deliberate. Thor was upset by the behaviour of the jotunn (giant) at the funeral and I think Litr was just in the way or got in front of him and so he vented his frustration.
@@gorilly3023 Litr!!
That all rings a bell. Ta.
He must have been short though, or very little, maybe like a football? What was your impression?
Probably time to give it another read.
Lucius Avenus I would imagine it supports the argument that there was a general notion of Dwarfs being short, but then again I suppose Thor could do the same thing to a regular sized person given his other achievements.
So then is "dwez" related to Indo European "diwas" from which we get dios, divine, deva, and devil?
Apparently in Sanskrit a type of demonic being is dhvaras, which also seems to add support for a relationship or common origin of these concepts.
No. To get that initial *d in PG you would need to start with PIE *dʰ, which would have remained /dʰ/ in Sanskrit and wound up as F in Latin (probably by way of H first: _ʰ→h→f), if they retained the word at all. It's possible for Sanskrit "dʰvaras" (dʰwaras) to be related, but not those others, and there doesn't seem to be a matching one in Latin. The Greek outcome of PIE *dʰ would be /tʰ/, which later became /θ/, which might make it seem like "theos" could be related, but other aspects of that word give away that it's actually from another separate root.
The remaining words you mentioned other than "devil", and more, are related to each other but not to the ones in that last paragraph.
To follow what's written below, keep in mind that the basic definition of a PIE root word is its consonants. Different grammatical forms of a word could have an *e or an *o dropped in the middle among the consonants, or no inserted vowel at all, which could force certain kinds of consonants (like R, L, M, and N) to act like vowels instead. The consonant sounds that we would now spell with a W or a Y, as in "wander" and "yellow", could thus sometimes end up acting like the vowels "u" and "i". To show that they could switch roles but we need to primarily treat them as fundamentally consonants by nature, they can be marked with a little curved line below, as in "i̯" and "u̯". (You might be reading this in a font that displaces those marks too far to the right; they're meant to be directly below the letters.) "u̯" could easily be represented as "w" instead, but that brings up a problem with how to represent "i̯" as mostly a consonant. It's normally Y in English, but that's also sometimes a vowel anyway, and it's often J outside English, but that looks like something completely different to people who are used to English, so neither option really communicates the idea very well. So I'm sticking with representing both of these PIE consonants-that-sometimes-impersonate-vowels as just vowels with funny extra marks, even though the way they actually worked in PIE was really more consonanty.
Anyway, back to the words you brought up...
*di̯u̯-, meaning something like "sky" or "daylight", or a god/personification of the sky, or an entity or group of entities that live(s) in the sky or come(s) from the sky, is a rare example of a PIE root word that seems to have allowed its core vowel to get dropped into either of the two interior positions between the three consonants instead of just always in one place. This yielded *dei̯u̯- or *di̯eu̯- (and *di̯ou̯- from normal PIE *e/o equivalence will also make an appearance below, although *doi̯u̯- seems to be lost). There might seem to be a loose pattern that the former is more likely to refer to the natural thing (sky/day/light) and the latter is more likely to refer to one or more living persons/creatures associated with it, but it's not consistent. The latter also could sometimes be followed up with PIE *ph₂ter ("father") to form something like "sky father" (descriptive phrase) or "Dyeus the Father" (name & title/role). (The final "-s" or "-os" in *di̯eu̯s or *di̯eu̯os is not the only kind of ending it can receive, but it's the most common.)
In Sanskrit, short vowels become "a" and *h₂ becomes "i", but not much else happens here, so the name ends up as "Dyaus" or "Dyaus Pitar" (with the Y as a consonant, not a vowel), a god who is only mentioned six times in the Vedas but is the father of many other gods (maybe all, I'm not sure). When not used as a name, other forms of it also end up as "divasa" (day) and "deva" (god).
In Greek, the awkward consonant cluster "dy" (remember, that Y is a consonant, not a vowel) becomes "dz", then "z" in "Zeus".
In Latin, the phrase ends up as "Diu-Piter" and then "Iupiter", which gives us "Jupiter". Standard PIE *e/o switching also yielded another form of the same name by *di̯ou̯es → diowes → ioves → Jove/Jovian/jovial. (The consonant "w" always ends up as "v" in Latin.) When not used as a name, *deiwos also ends up as both "divus" and "deus" (both meaning "god"), and *diewos ends up as "dies" (day).
In Proto-Germanic, PIE *d becomes *t, which is related to the fact I gave earlier, that PG *d doesn't come from PIE *d; it comes from PIE *dʰ. That plus the conversion of "-os" or "-us" endings to "-az" gives us "Tiwaz" as the Proto-Germanic version of the theonym. In English, that ends up as the "Tues" in "Tuesday". In Norse, the "i" and "u" effects merge into a single vowel that's like saying "i" or "ee" with your tongue and "u" or "oo" with your lips at the same time, like a French "u" or German "ü", represented in Norse with "y". PG "-az" endings also become Norse "-r", so we finally see the equivalent name show up in Norse as "Tyr". But Tyr doesn't seem very kingly or patriarchal/ancestral in Norse mythology, so either he lost one or both of those traits in the Germanic branch well before Germanic people started writing this stuff, or he never had one or both of them and his counterpart(s) gained one or both in some of the other branches.
English "day" and "devil" are unrelated to any of this and to each other.
"Day" traces back to a PIE word that, as you can infer from what I wrote above, started with *dʰ-, not *d-. And its cognates in other Germanic languages have a G where our Y is, from a Proto-Germanic *g, from a Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰ, which is not reflected in any of the words I've written about so far. (English had a G→Y conversion event after splitting from other Germanic languages, as also seen in auge→eye, geolu→yellow, and geard→yard, although we also imported "garden" from our cousins afterward.)
We imported Greek "diabolos", from which we then got both "devil" and "diabolic(al)", well after the d→t and dʰ→d conversions, so the "d" stayed the same. In Greek it was a compound word that seems to be from a phrase depicting somebody who stands across from you and tries to harm you by throwing things at you, including not just projectile weapons but also accusations. It mostly came to English-speakers' attention because Greek translations of the Old Testament had used it for Hebrew "šaṭan", meaning "opponent, adversary, accuser".
@@_volder Did Proto-Indo-European have some type of triconsonental root system, then?
I note : "SUBARU" , not simply a car. ! : ). Locally, we have many of the same. (State of Jefferson)
I get stuck behind people like that ALL THE TIME! The slowest moving people in Memphis.
I know it's not the case, but there's days where it feels like every slow driver in Georgia is in front of me when I'm trying to get to work.
@@animex75 Y'all need to come to Florida where everyone and their brother comes in their retirement. You have no idea...
I guess dwarf tossing could be more strenuous than originally conceived. Tossing a 5'6" dwarf could result in a hernia.
I tend to believe there was a physical and notable difference between dwarves, alves, giants, etc. There could also be differences in social traits in other examples. (like Trolls... comparable today with words some use, perhaps slurs, to describe people with different ideologies or behaviors) ...
I often wonder if it's possible the ancient Norse ever encountered or interacted with people of a different racial origin. Consider Asians... how would they have been described? The silk road was quite extensive and dates back to at least 130 BC, as an 'official' route. Could it have been a route also used before it became widely used? Consider also the Tocharians, who were people 'out of their element', but would have certainly interacted with people different then themselves.
As for the boogeyman example... Those who write history are the ones who describe it. Lindisfarne 793. Those who claimed to be eye witnesses of the raid claimed there were fiery dragons in the sky. Good example of the boogeyman routine. I suppose it's human nature in some to vilify another, or depict another in a less than desirable light.
TH-cam heard 'KJV' I heard 'KGV.' I may not be cut out for this.
Medieval people generally thought about things in terms of what they DO, not what they are.
It’s always a Subaru
Dwarf is a klingon warrior in startrick...get it right!
I have never smashed like faster.
Good post thanks a bunch
Any reference to the height of elves?
How on earth do you make that gargle,rolling r,vibrating sound when you pronounce certain Norse words.
I’ve tried many times and cannot get close.
It takes lots of practice to roll one's Rs. I learned how to do it with Russian.
its still "dvärg" in sweden :) just like dvergr minus the r
Also in Norwegian (dverg). However, it doesn't mean that the meaning of the word hasn't changed. As Dr. Crawford suggests. Same word, different meaning. Could also have related to psychological traits and not physical ones. We use the term short sighted when someone didn't think things through. Not just when needing glasses...
@Peterolen And a jätte is a giant
Well, now I know where Alvis from American Gods came from!
hahaha, great intro :D
Did he say D&D?
Yeah but more importantly he said "Monster Manual". So confirmed JC has played.
I just wanna know why the dwarves and elves seem to be the same in the Norse world and sagas cuz I have had troubles on figuring out which is which when I've read what little I've had read
Matt Flatt It is primarily because Snorri refers to Swarthy, Dark or Black Elves (Svartalfar) that dwell in Svartalfheim, but then goes on to describe the residents of Svartalfheim as dwarves. Stories associated with the dwarves, such as Loki meeting Andvari or the sons of Ivaldi and the dwarfs who craft Fenrir’s chain, all occur in the world of the Black Elves.
@@gorilly3023 thank you that helps me understand it alot better greatly appreciated
Is there any indication in Norse mythology that Jotuns had horns?
Nop I dont think so jotuns were just giants
~~~Christian influence~~~🧐
'could this be.. christian influence'
;D
How did you get in my feed hm?
John Wick?
We prefer to be called fun sized tyvm
😁😁😁 Sooo, short but taller than a knome. And corpse like. Bordering on boogeymen to me.
Didnt the dwarves come from the maggots that came from ymir ?
Are we making Matt Colville references now?
The map is not the territory. The original quote comes from a Polish expert in semantics named Alfred Korzybski. But yes Matt Colville used it as well. I actually found Dr Crawford's channel based upon a recommendation by Matt Colville.
👍👍
Myself, I like the theory that Norse "dwarves" (or alternatively svartalfar) were actually modeled on the Rhineland Germans who made a lot of the swords they used (my ancestors, so in Norse terms I'm a dwarf :-)). Who, yes, would in period have averaged a bit shorter and stockier than the Scandinavians but with mostly overlapping measurements.
I can see that elves and dwarves can be the same, especially with the extreme connection to nature (being animals, speaking from rocks, etc.) Are they shapeshifters or are they the animal itself? Gotta look into it. By the wayside, I am lovin the Wanderer's Havamal. I'm reading it to my 11 month old son.
Thanks, Dr. Crawford.
Jacob Berry They are shapeshifters. They were shaped or grew into the forms of man according to Voluspa, but according to some stories they had these abilities. Otr can seemingly take the form of an Otter at will and Fafnir originally has a human/dwarf form before taking the shape of a dragon to guard his hoard.
@@gorilly3023 I was just reading about the otter. Didn't know about Fafnir, though. Very intriguing. Thanks, Gorilly.
Perhaps the idea that dwarves were made short by Christian influence is related to the idea of “the little people” in other areas of the world. For example in Ireland where the great Sídhe eventually became tiny fairies due to Christian culture.
So, Christian influence would not be so far fetched. But that doesn’t seem to have occurred in this case from the evidence you’ve presented. It seems dwarves we’re already perceived as a bit short.
call me dwarf all day long, call me midget, now you got a problem.
I have always thought of the word Dwarf in old Norse meaning 'stumped' or even 'handicapped'. So it could refer to any shortcoming; and Dwarves themselves could be people/creatures with shortcomings, or the personification of a shortcoming, or maybe ugly or devious/cunning (maybe purposefully multiple of those at the same time).
'Dvergr of Voxt' would simply mean 'stumped' or 'handicapped' in height/stature.
So I think dwarves aren't (supposed to be) short in myth, but visualizing them as short is still an accurate representation of their 'physically/mentally challenged' meaning.
Would love to hear your thoughts on this Dr Crawford. Keep the video's coming.
Could Dwarves be a poor memory of Neanderthals?
Key point about the difference between modern and mediaeval modes of thought. I wonder if elf and dwarf weren’t so much racial labels as names associated with their main activities. A person is a dwarf if they’re a fine crafts person and an elf if they’re also nice to the Aesir?
Dang I thought you rode a horse everywhere 😔
Hmm.. So "Dwarf" was a term given to classify a person based not so much on physical characteristics so much as personal affectation; someone who was or looked like someone who hid away (lived in rocks), was crafty or knowledgeable in a making things sense, perhaps obsessively so, and probably not heroic in stature or build. In other words (specifically modern terms), a nerd.
So in the Old Norse world, to be a troll meant you were homely and if you were a dwarf it meant you were a nerd. Is that about right?
I don't think so. These are all supernatural beings who live in other realms.
On a psychological level the fact that there aren't distinct boundaries between these types of being makes it clear they represent chaos and the unknown. Elves aren't much more defined than spirits of the air and forests. Dvurgar and Svartalf are spirits of the earth with the Jotunn being the "big threat" of chaos "outside the walls" with whom Thor is perpetually in conflict manifesting order from chaos with his flawed workmans hammer. Finally there are the great beasts like the midgard serpent which represent the chaos of the natural world.
@@AJSTITAN14 I would think that the concepts of supernatural and chaos as we currently understand them would not be exactly accurate to the Old Norse way of looking at things either, though. They'd have probably more simplistically been "not we" and "not controlled by us", respectively.
Of course, the shaman and the skald will see things in a different way to the less erudite and esoteric farmer and fisherman, let alone a political leader, so worldview and wordview, as it were, may be quantitatively subjective, no? (As a formally failed former poetry major, I offer mostly only fields of ignorance and grains of uncertainty, but earnestly so.)
@@LordGrotesk I never said they considered chaos and order in a formal philosophy. A troll is a supernatural being not merely an ugly person. After all a ghost is a troll.
The essence of you question was "what do these terms mean?" They are not simple adjectives they are representations of the unknown.
I believe the biblical use of dwarf (dak) refers more to being frail and skinny or having a hunched back/ spinal injury. It might be safe to say it's not related to being a short king or a mythical creature? Let's meet halfway and just say it means to have a dropped suspension. 💁
Martha S It’s in the middle of a list of birth defects, injuries, and illnesses, so I think it’s safe to say it’s not referring to a Tolkien-style species.
@@DrFranklynAnderson 'Dwarf' was definitely a poor translation choice. Christian influence I dare say...
What if dverger is the Neanderthals?
Could the Neanderthals "survive" in the oral traditions for that long?
Personal theory (not based on any actual fact): memory of Neanderthals live on in Jotunn in Norse myths.
Most cultures I am aware of have legends of giants/people who were here before (Inuit have Dorset culture, Hebrew have the half angels, etc).
My understanding, the highest concentration of Neanderthal genetics is within the Germanic people.
Yes this concept clashes with Jotunn not necessarily being physically large. I picture it more as "other people that were not like us that we either killed, married, or *ahem* fornicated with".
@@seanboyd2898
I also tend to believe that the Germanic people are close to the Neanderthals, and that they influences our mythology.
Neanderthals may be too much of a stretch, but this might be a memory of the first anatomically modern humans that inhabited Europe (who used to have much more Neanderthalese ancestry than modern Europeans). Yet even more probably this points to the later, intermixed descendants of those first Europeans: the Sámi.
@@M-CH_ Is the sami Europe's first people?
Sure about that?
My great grandfather was sami.
@@plciferpffer3048 They're not, but they came to Scandinavia before the Indo-Europeans. They've been here (or their ancestors at least) probably as long as the Basques.
HAHAHA
They're making sure you have time to read all their bumper stickers. It's a Subaru, after all.
Nobody:
Not a single soul:
0% of beings within Yggdrasil:
Jackson Crawford: *the shortness of Norse dwarves*
Sorry. I ride my subie in the snow much faster the the limit lol
Lol 😂
Maybe Christianity has Germanic Mythology influence?... 🤔
Not exactly though Christmas has loads of paganism
Why do you think Eve ate an apple?
When you think of how Christians tend to imagine afterlife and souls, it has more to do with Germanic cosmology than Christian theology.
@@M-CH_ In what way? The Christian concept of hell, punishment and heaven is strongly a middle eastern construct. It's found in most religions from that area. Think of Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Judaism, Islam, Manichaeism, Christianity, etc.
The idea of Germanic/Norse Hel doesn't have the virtuous reward structure nor the punishment of 'sinners'. I wouldn't really compare it with any nearby religion except maybe Slavic paganism. Even the more nordic Finno-Ugric and Baltic religions are quite different from Germanic, having a much more free flow of 'spirits' and souls into the mortal world.
We don't think like folks that lived in the viking age. I have never understood those who want to reconstruct Asatru faith. I am attracted to the Norse gods. I know probably for ideas that are modern.
Since is realized that all human noses look like thor hamers, it ruined every human face for me....
Mine looks like a kukri machete
I wonder if it's just an extrapolation made by later readers? Especially artists. It seems like it might be hard for someone not times into mythical dream logic to comprehend (and especially illustrate) four full-grown men living in the same boulder without assuming they must just be tiny
And/or those later readers might be conflating them with later, unquestionably small folkloric gnomes and faeries with similar habits like living in rocks and offering wondrous gifts, that may or may not actually be related to figures from Norse myth
I wondered if the ancient dwarves (Zwerge) were the Neanderthal, especially since they existed the same time with humans at one time before going extinct.