From what I understand, so long as things end with object a in slot b (erm...so to speak) you're good. How you get there is up to you (so long as you're respecting each other's dignity and both of you have input). So oral stimulation as part of foreplay is ok. Ending things there, no.
I was researching for an answer to this question and came up with two different answers. The "liberal/modernist" answer is that as long as it is basically for foreplay purposes only it is ok, the sex just can't end with oral or be more focused on the flesh vs the union. I have not been able to find any *authoritative* defense or explanation for this, and it runs contrary to the very well-defined "traditionalist/conservative" answer which is that the Church teaches that the only form of sexual simulation in a marriage which is not a grave sin is "genital-to-genital intercourse that is open to life" which means PIV sex that ends in ejaculation into the womb. Both oral and manual stimulation of any kind, for any reason (even for producing a medical sperm sample) is a grave sin. It is even forbidden for either partner to use a hand or toy to bring the wife to climax during the approved marital act, thus if she is one of the 80% of women who can't climax from this firm of stimulation, too bad for her. The only "natural sex act", as far as the Church is concerned, is an act that is"open to creating life", and the only act that fits that definition is PIV intercourse. This position has been thoroughly explained and defended by Pope St Pius XII and can be found at catechismDOTcc (this comment will be deleted if I post the link). The only thing i could not find out was whether the traditional view is official dogma (in which case it is binding) or doctrine (in which case there may be some wiggle room) Considering our salvation is at stake, I find it shameful that there can be confusion over these matters in the Church and even more shameful that the Church doesn't offer more clear and explicit answers. To me it's like avoiding giving the sex talk to your children but then placing full blame on them for being promiscuous at 18 years old. I want to be able to please my Lord and my spouse to the fullest and I'm willing to favor my Lord over my spouse, but I would really like to know and understand with certainty. One question i have is; couldn't it be sufficient for the marriage to be "open to life" instead of each individual sex act?
I am so happy you are making these videos. I am currently speaking with my priest trying to find spiritual guidance with love in the marriage bed. We are practicing NFP and trying to make the marriage bed more holy. I apologize if it is not appropriate to ask but there are questions we have about certain things in the marriage bed that we are uncertain if it is a sin. Foreplay (oral) for example, or or stimulating the woman after the man has climaxes, etc. it is very difficult because of what today’s society teaches. For example the Song of Songs to some extend seems to ok that sort of love as long as you do not remove the possibility of life in the act. I hope this makes since and hopefully you can provide some insight. Also please keep doing what you two do because you are truly helping people in this world as I am sure helping yourselves. As you have said we are all human and make mistakes and it is good to reflect on these things. Thanks again. I hope you are able to respond to this comment.
Hi Peter and Danielle! I would highly recommend Christopher's book, "Good News About Sex and Marriage" for all the "nitty-gritty" questions about sexual ethics. Make sure to get the latest edition ("Updated, revised, and expanded"). P.S. No, I'm not being paid to advertise, I just love the TOBI's content so much!
I have both of those books pulled up ready to purchase after speaking with me priest. I also have, “Three to Get Married” by Fulton Sheen. My concern is I continue to run into people dancing around the specific answer of whether it is taught by the Catholic Church to be accepted. Again turning to the Bible the Song of Songs definitely appears to describe it.
Further questions that I have are about “sex furniture”. (Swings, wedges, etc.) are these also considered sinful in a marriage? I am not trying to be inappropriate but it is hard to find people willing to discuss and answer these questions.
Why? We are children of the Lord. And we want to walk in righteousness, we don’t want to sin against our Father, and we want to properly learn to love and make sure we are loving correctly, that’s what life is all about
I do, your a guy so you wouldn’t but women growing up in a religious background are often disgrace for their bodies and sexual desires that they make you feel guilty for it. So when it comes to husbands that shame of being a woman still stirs around because of how many religious people treat it
It’s natural and normal to feel sexual attraction for your husband but churches often don’t tell you what you can and cannot do with your husband. All they ever do is tell you about sexual sin. So even when it’s mentioned it’s vague in comparison to how women are shamed in the church
Many years ago I asked a Baptist minister if it was still lust if a man (or woman) lusts after his (her) spouse. He said lust is lust and the Bible says all lust is sinful.
How about lack of all desire ? Sharing a life, good. Supporting each other, yes. On the same page intellectually, spiritually, and financially, yup. Desire? Absent. It’s a chore I dread.
There might be something going on there hormonally. Past trauma or negative experiences dealing with sex can affect that too. I struggled with that for years after getting married because of that (both an unaddressed assault (that I hadn't even realized was an assault at the time!) and witnessing someone close to me go through a bunch of trauma related to their sexuality when I was a teen). There is hope. It took 5 years to actually enjoy sex itself, but I did get there. Highly recommend Dr. Greg Popcak's works. He addresses that issue in "Holy Sex."
@@JP2GiannaT I have read that book. There’s no trauma, and I love a good massage it’s just the act itself is about as erotic than cleaning out my ears.
I beg you to stop philosophing and dreaming about such a simple question. Lusting after your spouse or having sexual desire for her should be actually encouraged. It's a way of connecting with her or him emotionally and spiritually. This is part of chemistry between the 2 of you. It increases the bond for couples. No other way.
Thank you for your comment. We believe there's a key distinction between lusting and true God given sexual desire. If you're open to a deeper explanation, this videos might help: th-cam.com/video/C2_1QAL_t8M/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/JUa4V961HqM/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/nrgHoJrxoAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2pVqypMMCdIic8WA
You ever notice how these guys never have their wives on to share their views? It's just men pontificating. I remember hearing an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi say that the command to not lust after another man's wife implies it is acceptable, or even desirable and good, to lust after one's own wife within the loving covenant of marriage.
What, really ? This is going a bit too far. If you don't desire your spouse then who are you meant to be desiring. Perhaps they are running out of topic
That’s because you didn’t understand the video. It isn’t your wife that’s the occasion for sin, it is our history of internal “twisted” sexuality that manifests an opportunity for sinfulness. Re-listen with this in mind.
@@user-yn2ct2ie9m You appear to be as full of shit and lacking a working understanding of marital sex as this goof. This is why the average catholic thinks the Churche thinks all sex is sin. Grow up
@@user-yn2ct2ie9m I do understand this video and if it is possible to sin by desiring your spouse then marriage is the only Sacrament that puts you in a near occassion of sin. This is pure nonsense and I will need to see the church documents that teach this crap. This is only his twisted opinion.
This is real maturity 🙌🏻
Right when I'm really struggling in life subscription to this chanel pulls through 😉💪 I love you brothers 🕊️
"They will be with Me and in Me, until they learn what time has cancelled and pride has confused."
Mr. Christopher West. I would also like to hear about oral stimulation within marriage. Thank you.
This is something I would like to hear about as well.
From what I understand, so long as things end with object a in slot b (erm...so to speak) you're good. How you get there is up to you (so long as you're respecting each other's dignity and both of you have input). So oral stimulation as part of foreplay is ok. Ending things there, no.
@@JP2GiannaT I second that. I read that in his book.
I was researching for an answer to this question and came up with two different answers. The "liberal/modernist" answer is that as long as it is basically for foreplay purposes only it is ok, the sex just can't end with oral or be more focused on the flesh vs the union. I have not been able to find any *authoritative* defense or explanation for this, and it runs contrary to the very well-defined "traditionalist/conservative" answer which is that the Church teaches that the only form of sexual simulation in a marriage which is not a grave sin is "genital-to-genital intercourse that is open to life" which means PIV sex that ends in ejaculation into the womb. Both oral and manual stimulation of any kind, for any reason (even for producing a medical sperm sample) is a grave sin. It is even forbidden for either partner to use a hand or toy to bring the wife to climax during the approved marital act, thus if she is one of the 80% of women who can't climax from this firm of stimulation, too bad for her. The only "natural sex act", as far as the Church is concerned, is an act that is"open to creating life", and the only act that fits that definition is PIV intercourse. This position has been thoroughly explained and defended by Pope St Pius XII and can be found at catechismDOTcc (this comment will be deleted if I post the link). The only thing i could not find out was whether the traditional view is official dogma (in which case it is binding) or doctrine (in which case there may be some wiggle room)
Considering our salvation is at stake, I find it shameful that there can be confusion over these matters in the Church and even more shameful that the Church doesn't offer more clear and explicit answers. To me it's like avoiding giving the sex talk to your children but then placing full blame on them for being promiscuous at 18 years old.
I want to be able to please my Lord and my spouse to the fullest and I'm willing to favor my Lord over my spouse, but I would really like to know and understand with certainty.
One question i have is; couldn't it be sufficient for the marriage to be "open to life" instead of each individual sex act?
I am so happy you are making these videos. I am currently speaking with my priest trying to find spiritual guidance with love in the marriage bed. We are practicing NFP and trying to make the marriage bed more holy. I apologize if it is not appropriate to ask but there are questions we have about certain things in the marriage bed that we are uncertain if it is a sin. Foreplay (oral) for example, or or stimulating the woman after the man has climaxes, etc. it is very difficult because of what today’s society teaches. For example the Song of Songs to some extend seems to ok that sort of love as long as you do not remove the possibility of life in the act. I hope this makes since and hopefully you can provide some insight.
Also please keep doing what you two do because you are truly helping people in this world as I am sure helping yourselves. As you have said we are all human and make mistakes and it is good to reflect on these things.
Thanks again. I hope you are able to respond to this comment.
Hi Peter and Danielle! I would highly recommend Christopher's book, "Good News About Sex and Marriage" for all the "nitty-gritty" questions about sexual ethics. Make sure to get the latest edition ("Updated, revised, and expanded").
P.S. No, I'm not being paid to advertise, I just love the TOBI's content so much!
"Holy Sex" by Dr. Greg Popcak is also a great book that gets into the weeds with this.
I have both of those books pulled up ready to purchase after speaking with me priest. I also have, “Three to Get Married” by Fulton Sheen. My concern is I continue to run into people dancing around the specific answer of whether it is taught by the Catholic Church to be accepted. Again turning to the Bible the Song of Songs definitely appears to describe it.
Further questions that I have are about “sex furniture”. (Swings, wedges, etc.) are these also considered sinful in a marriage? I am not trying to be inappropriate but it is hard to find people willing to discuss and answer these questions.
This is amazing. Such an intelligent way of looking at sex, love and humanity. I have a copy of TOB coming today! I'm really excited to learn this.
It blows my mind that grown adults would even ask this question.
Why? We are children of the Lord. And we want to walk in righteousness, we don’t want to sin against our Father, and we want to properly learn to love and make sure we are loving correctly, that’s what life is all about
I do, your a guy so you wouldn’t but women growing up in a religious background are often disgrace for their bodies and sexual desires that they make you feel guilty for it. So when it comes to husbands that shame of being a woman still stirs around because of how many religious people treat it
It’s natural and normal to feel sexual attraction for your husband but churches often don’t tell you what you can and cannot do with your husband. All they ever do is tell you about sexual sin. So even when it’s mentioned it’s vague in comparison to how women are shamed in the church
Many years ago I asked a Baptist minister if it was still lust if a man (or woman) lusts after his (her) spouse. He said lust is lust and the Bible says all lust is sinful.
But pro creating is necessary and you can lust with love attached
This is useful, but it needs to be balanced with the female perspective. Both spouses need to understand their counterpart's outlook.
How about lack of all desire ? Sharing a life, good. Supporting each other, yes. On the same page intellectually, spiritually, and financially, yup.
Desire? Absent. It’s a chore I dread.
There might be something going on there hormonally.
Past trauma or negative experiences dealing with sex can affect that too. I struggled with that for years after getting married because of that (both an unaddressed assault (that I hadn't even realized was an assault at the time!) and witnessing someone close to me go through a bunch of trauma related to their sexuality when I was a teen). There is hope. It took 5 years to actually enjoy sex itself, but I did get there.
Highly recommend Dr. Greg Popcak's works. He addresses that issue in "Holy Sex."
@@JP2GiannaT I have read that book. There’s no trauma, and I love a good massage it’s just the act itself is about as erotic than cleaning out my ears.
I beg you to stop philosophing and dreaming about such a simple question. Lusting after your spouse or having sexual desire for her should be actually encouraged. It's a way of connecting with her or him emotionally and spiritually. This is part of chemistry between the 2 of you. It increases the bond for couples. No other way.
Thank you for your comment. We believe there's a key distinction between lusting and true God given sexual desire. If you're open to a deeper explanation, this videos might help:
th-cam.com/video/C2_1QAL_t8M/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/JUa4V961HqM/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/nrgHoJrxoAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=2pVqypMMCdIic8WA
You ever notice how these guys never have their wives on to share their views? It's just men pontificating. I remember hearing an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi say that the command to not lust after another man's wife implies it is acceptable, or even desirable and good, to lust after one's own wife within the loving covenant of marriage.
Chris wife has been on here
@@Maverick-zy7yuidiots
Why do you lie? Plenty of women have been on here, including their wives.
Really helpful
Thank you!
What, really ? This is going a bit too far. If you don't desire your spouse then who are you meant to be desiring. Perhaps they are running out of topic
This is pure nonsense. This is not Catholic teaching. I dare this goof to show me where the Church teaches this.
Neat
So any and all sex with my spouse is wrongful since it’s only the desire of God I want
Then why did you marry someone ? To ruin their life and be a nun?
No its not its normal snapper head
This means my wife is an occassion of sin? Really? This is absurd.
That’s because you didn’t understand the video. It isn’t your wife that’s the occasion for sin, it is our history of internal “twisted” sexuality that manifests an opportunity for sinfulness. Re-listen with this in mind.
@@user-yn2ct2ie9m You appear to be as full of shit and lacking a working understanding of marital sex as this goof.
This is why the average catholic thinks the Churche thinks all sex is sin. Grow up
@@user-yn2ct2ie9m no there is something seriously wrong with West
@@user-yn2ct2ie9m I do understand this video and if it is possible to sin by desiring your spouse then marriage is the only Sacrament that puts you in a near occassion of sin. This is pure nonsense and I will need to see the church documents that teach this crap. This is only his twisted opinion.
Baloney
😂😂😂I love the marital credentials they through out before getting into this topic lol
How about we make it simple, Sex Bad, No Sex Good, amen and let's just leave it at that