Melee Science: Why is Hungrybox the only elite Jigglypuff?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ส.ค. 2024
- Daniel “Tafokints” Lee surveys the Melee player base, researches the tech required, and examines play styles to determine why Juan “Hungrybox” Debiedma is the only elite-tier Jigglypuff player.
Can you do a vid like this on Axe and pikachu?
he's a poor-man's fox, most people that want pika swap to fox.
Vell I hear this a lot. is it because you foxes compare illusion ledge cancels to the up b from pika? the upsmash I can see. more pillaring involved with pikachu. basically what I'm saying is isn't pikachu a poormans falco?
We're working on it!
Totally agree. HungryBox's Jigglypuff is a huge outlier...but Axe's Pikachu is an ENORMOUS outlier.
Armada and Peach? Although I guess the explanation for all of them would come down to the same variables....
you've improved so much speaking-wise, tafo.
this is one melee science i personally liked a lot, he wasn't saying um, and stuttering, and just pausing as much as his previous vids! Very good!
was just thinking this
tl;dr hbox is just... much better than all the other puff players. lol.
The ways in which he is better is actually pretty interesting. This video has value especially to the newer fans. I am not a newer fan. I am really good at this game. Just ask my roommates.
TheAndrewc5120 tl;dr HBox lives and breathes Jiggly.
TheAndrewc5120 Hbox is better than the other only puff*
He's just amazing in general. Have you seen his Ness? HBox claims he chose Puff for the low tech skill ceiling, and maybe that's true (Ness is also a slow floaty character), but he would've been amazing with any character he put as much time into. His fundamentals are just too damn good. A HBox match will never be as awesome as Mango v. Leffen but I don't know why more viewers don't see movement like at 5:15 and think it's pretty cool. If only we could stop him from stalling out entire fucking matches.
tl;dr hbox hides Jiggs tech to stunt puff growth
I think Hungrybox is so good with Puff because she just click so well with how he sees the game. He has great patience and punishes, both of which are really strong for Puff. Other Puff mains dont quite have the mindset or mentality that Hbox does and thats why he's really the only top Puff main.
Caleb Gadwah that's not why, people just don't like playing as her
He has like 10 plus years of puff experience/training, talking about pacience
@Sylvester Banini Puff is an annoyance and very slow and boring to play.
@@Raylightsen you just suck get gud
@@Raylightsen probably got rekt by a puff on slippi
Puff is the sickest character, nobody knows
SSBM Tutorials We don't already know?
SSBM Tutorials no, it Pichu
You said she was garbage in your teir list video
I love hearing tafo's voice, but ever since CEO dreamland, I can't stare at him without laughing about "OHHHHH SHIIIIT"
What happened?
thx!
It was "Holy" not oh
i've never heard someone say they love tafo's voice lol
nah it was oh
Hey Yahoo esports. I only subbed for tafo.
Daplin1 Same
Happy to have you. We're big fans too.
me too
I also
Perhaps a video on what the Foxes have done to start beating Westballz?
Cover tech in place lol
Wow Tafos cadence and delivery is improving very significantly. I love the content, and the great delivery makes it even better to watch.
1:27 WHY THE F DOES PPU LOOK LIKE L FROM DEATH NOTE LOL
I see Near a lot better than L.
He really doesnt tho
Excellent video Tafo. I am a competitive Smash 4 player but I couldn't help but watch,re watch and then share this video. Amazing analysis and I am just elated that Smash has evolved to the point where we have our personalities on yahoo esports doing things like this.
Keep 'em coming, already looking forward to the next analysis featuring you.
Ok I watched out of curiosity, and Im just mindblown that Yahoo has a fucking esports channel
Can you do a video on the history of falco. Like how Bombsoldier and DaShizWiz changed his style from campy to aggro. Then talk about how people learned how to deal with lasers and combos and how he must be very careful/safe in his play now of days
Drew Powell it all goes back to the farm. you see, Falco was hatched by a three winged hen near the old barn. and was always ashamed of this. he joined the air force and got dishonorably discharged as a guise to double cross the man. after the debacle he became afraid of the ground and flew for whoever would give him a plane and some chicken feed.
Drew Powell PPMD sorta did that when he talked about the state of Falco a couple months ago. It's a long video tho.
Adolfo Goicoechea I know, I saw it, but with it'd still be cool.
@@adolfogoicoechea4971 link?
Can you do one like this but with Axe? I'm pretty sure a lot of the points match up but pika and puff are such different chars
It's coming, stay tuned!
Yahoo Esports I'd be even more interested in an aMSa/Yoshi vid tbh
HiTechnic amsa would be a good one too
Esam wasn't much worse, but quit playing Melee.
Derek Troxel Well for now he's prioritising Sm4sh but plays Melee sometimes
Can you make a video on why you should switch to Fox vs Donkey Kong?
Beau Reynders daaaaaamn
OK I main DK and Puff in Melee
It's interesting that Tafo talked about most new players getting interested in the game through spacies and not puff, as my interest in melee came from watching hbox 3 years ago (and I didn't come from a brawl or smash 4 background). I almost feel like the hate from puff comes from a perspective of what melee "should" look like. Because I was coming in fresh at the time, I didn't have any pre-conceived notion of what melee should look like and could enjoy puff for what she was. After all, even if puff might appear slower than other characters, ALL melee characters are extremely fast compared to the VAST majority of video game characters you'll see out there. I popped off watching hbox getting all the gimps (seeing him preventing the fox from getting back on stage seemed so out of this world and skilled, coming from a casual smash background) and rests (what a powerful, unorthodox move), thinking to myself "wow such an innocent looking pokemon can be so fucking fast and lethal"
tafo has improved so much in his speaking since the first of these vids, good job!
great content! you improved so much in front of the camera!
I think the social aspect is the main reason, glad you brought that up.
Can you do video explaining the differences between s2j, none, and wizzarobe and ghatzu faclons? Maybe go into the 20GX movement?
This man takes an eternity to finish blinking. Blllllllllllllllllllllllllink
Not even gonna mention the crazy way he holds the controller and the tap jumps?
lol he looked right at the other camera before it was directed at him, good shit
Good job tafo, definitely getting better at presenting these.
Just found this channel and was surprised by the quality when I found out that it was made by Yahoo.
Whenever hungrybox up-throws, the person he throws can't move and he rests them. Whenever I up-throw, the person I throw just jumps again. What am I doing wrong??
The space animal slayer (also known as the Hunger strike which is named after Jigglypuff professional Hungrybox) is a well-known Jigglypuff combo in Super Smash Bros. Melee most often used against a *low-damage Fox or Falco* (i.e. the space animals), and occasionally works on Roy due to his gravity. It is performed by using up throw, then jumping to the target, and then using Rest. *At medium percentages, an up aerial can be interposed to ensure the Rest hits.*
SSBwiki
Your opponents are likely at too high of a percent or are characters whose weight and fall speed vary enough to escape Jigglypuff before she can act on it.
Up-throw into rest was a combo waaaaaay before Hbox dude....
It's usually against a fox and he always just jumps after I throw him
The only characters it works on are fox and Falco
@@Prodigial 4 years late but noone said hbox invented it. The guy above you just made reference to a nickname of it, which is named after him.
I think HungryBox is a very smart person. Smart enough to know he can make money with melee for a while, smart enough to know how to stay ahead of everyone else (rarely or never plays friendlies), smart enough to know not everyone is going to like it. It reminds of how chess shifted from an aggressive game to a more defensive game when one pro player figured out that playing defensively was the superior style to use. I doubt that will become the norm with smash but it is a noteworthy anecdote.
tafo, make one melee science about why don't we have a good Falcon.
franck fernandes We don't have a good falcon?
n0ne good falcons seem to be found, is it wizzily to recheck ?
Because there are only 4 viable characters with only 2 exceptions to that rule?
Fox, Marth, Falco and Shiek
With the Hbox Puff and the Armada Peach being the exceptions
Before this toxic as shit community flames me, give me an example of something not listed here, I'll wait...
Chris P I mean Chu JUST made it to grandfinals of a super major and Wizzrobe getting 2nd is nothing to slouch at either. I think Captain Falcon is the only character that comes as close to being labbed as the top tiers are, maybe alongside ICies. A lot more chars are viable than you give credit
one of the biggest problems with toxicity in communities comes exactly from believing to have found evidences and facts to prove so called statements in an extremelly unstable environment. Lack of evidence x potential is a really complicated aspect of the so called "games science" when considering players, tier lists and character viability. I could, for an example, say that n0ne, wizzrobe and s2j have been proving that falcon still has a lot of breathing space in the meta before being possible to be considered unviable, and although i could use (if i was lacking in perception) use the same argument to say the same thing about donkey kong and yoshi based off green ranger and AmSa, or mewtwo based on Leffen. The big difference here is that the gap between world top players and local PRs is that the mindgame and knowledge of the game of the top level players is way ahead most of the rest. Considering current meta and the evolution of melee in the last years i could even go as far as saying that in the high end of it, even with less options and really heavy problems on neutral some really discouraged characters could find a place in the viability side of the meta and this is slowly and slightly showing and changing.
Now if you consider proof of viability a character be winning majors then i honestly think your standards are the problem, not the characters.
GREAT video Taf. Well made
New sub! Love the coverage Esports is getting, looking forward to more Smash Bros content! Im a Sm4sh player myself and enjoy learning about Melee
Why aren't there more DK players Kappa
"Complaining about Jigglypuff's playstyle is a very scrubby mindset... but it's also a very pervasive mindset."
Yup. Sounds like the community I know and love tbh.
I feel like I can't listen to Tafo because he knows the game so well but lost to a DK. I love you Tafo.
That's why I think a battle of floaties is the highest form of melee. It's so much deeper than Sakurai given fastfall speeds and character-specific tech
"Didn't Mango beat Hungrybox in a Jigglypuff mirror? I mean I don't doubt Hungrybox is the better Jigglypuff main but shouldn't Mango being able to beat him using Box's own main make him an elite Jigglypuff player too?"
He was an elite puff before he switched to spacies
Took the words right out of my mouth Tafo. I've been thinking about these concepts a lot as a newer, yet thoroughly introduced Melee player (about 2-3 year tournament experience). "Yeah! Science bitch!"
Puff is hype if you ask me
Birzt Only when she gets a grab, up air or an edgeguard
Birzt then ur an idiot
just no
floaty battles are the highest form of melee. So much deeper than laser-overshoot/tech skill spam. But seriously, you to think so much more sometimes because winning/losing neutral doesnt equal a death.
Birzt has it right. while imo its not the highest level of play, theres not enough of depth in puffs attacks. what there is depth to tho, is HOW she gets those hits in. there's so much implication and mind games
i hear people talk about why puff is more boring to watch than other players, but to me it's just different. watching puff is usually stressful as hell. one false move from either side and it's usually a stock. that's what makes it so interesting in my opinion. yeah it's not the fastest gameplay, but tbh the speed of melee in general also can make it hard to watch. can't really follow all the moves if you only have intermediate understanding of the game like me. but of course that's interesting as well. it's not bad because it's different.
i agree, spacies puff in particular tho especially hbox vs guys like mango or armada in the past i enjoyed
I honestly just find the character dynamics pretty hype
Hbox’s reserved patience-draining defence dose wonders to show off mango’s mad dog unpredictability, zain’s methodical spacing, armada’s strategic offence, and usually results in a lot more fun battles to me because you TRULY won’t know how it would end
petition for a hbox jigglypuff tutorial series
I miss this channel/series
me too
You guys should do one about specialized or character specific tech and how it influences the meta (i.e. Samus super wave dash or something)
That PM render of Headband Puff in the background lol
in your ask FM there was a question about who would move up the rankings. can you make one where you explain who will move down the rankings?
Been watching every one to see how Tafos getting better. He's gotten a lot better at speaking. The script could have been revised a little though because there were parts that seemed unnecessarily repetitive.
The Melee tournament scene may have a script but I assure you Melee Science does not. Thanks for the feedback though and we'll keep working on getting better!
Keep 'em coming, the Smash community gains a lot from your work, Tafo.
Tafokints reminds me of a doctor melee doctor
Can we get one on ken and how you think he'll be able to come the new gap
You should do a history of how the Fox vs Falco matchup has evolved over the years.
Hey Tafo, could you analyze Chu's suprising recent success?
Kristopher Bangsil already did
How about a ballad dedicated to his past achievements?
th-cam.com/video/XIb-oQaAu4I/w-d-xo.html
Excellent video!!
Unfortunately, I have raged when punished by grab+rest.
Hungrybox makes me laugh on cams when he wins a set of a game, he's like CROWD LOVE ME PLEASE LOVEE MEEEE.
It's more like "fuck y'all haters"
Hi Tafokints, can you do a video about Samus's evolution in the meta game?
Here is a Samus episode in case you missed it.
th-cam.com/video/uumxEwltchE/w-d-xo.html
you actually explained all that really well. although to newer or more casual players they wouldnt really get it. not like this video is for them anyway
I may hate puff as a character but I've always respected the players.
So basically you're saying that Puff is a cop-out? Cool! :3
Can we get one on Armada being the lone peach?
Why would you say is the best punish a Marth main could have over a Puff and viceversa?
can you do a video about matchup experience?
Cause he’s the GOAT
Holy shit I completely agree with this video. I main puff and my fox and falcon are miles better than my puff. If someone tells you puff is easy then they probably don't play puff.
Did you forget that Mango was a puff main for a long time?
you could apply this to pika and yoshi as well i guess
Isn't that Project M's Puff render?
This is such a good video.
*Because people complain she takes no skill but then find her difficult to use*
M2k has said that puff is the easiest and best character to play if everyone's controller were broken. Idk if he means she's brain dead, but she really doesn't need much tech skill unless you want to be flashy.
That *did* sound like Smash 4 mechanics.
So, he plays how I play Smash 4 Falco.
I think I know who I'm going to play when I play Melee sometimes now.
Personally I view Pikachu in Melee a character that Smash 4 players would like as well. He has good combo game, a good aerial, and a great recovery. Personally I feel like him and Jigglypuff are the most like Smash 4 characters.
That project m puff render tho
Because Hbox is the Puff main that most closely resembles a b-air
can you do a video about Peach?
MaXy from N.Ireland is top 10 in the recent UK PR. Very aggressive
You haven't seen me play against ICs =P
I was timing them out before it was cool
Please do the same for Peach
i feel like the first time he read the script was while filming.
you guys have a twitch channel??
This vid was very informative but I'm wondering why there are no super in depth guides about melee characters, like if I remember correctly not even all the frame data on kurogane was filled up. if there were more of these basic or advanced tutorials probably be a lot more people taking up the challenge of playing melee
I really miss tekk. Also, where is reaper?
You need to cover Plup's Samus...
If you main Fox and Falco and lose to Jigglypuff you deserve that loss. End of story.
PLEASE drop the camaera angle where Tafo looks just SLIGHTLY off my eyes. Omg it annoys my brain so much.
subbing for these tafo videos
Turns out the answer was "hard work and patience," which is almost always the answer to how anyone got good at anything.
Smash4 Science: Why is Esam the only elite Pikachu?
I guess because it’s a more technical character
He has been playing exclusively puff for like 10+ years
Natural gameplay of Jigglypuff?
Do one on Abate´s Luigi and the probability of him becoming a top player
As a Smash 4 player, I can safely say Jigglypuff doesn't attract ANY of us to Melee.
Given the success of Hungrybox, it's surprising that Mango doesn't give Jigglypuff another try.
Mental game > Tech Skill
If only Melee players would understand this more, Ive been told so many times I should be able to waveshine/multishine consistently to get better at the game on more than one occasion which I find pretty stupid, yes tech skill is important but neutral is they key for all Smash games. Its not even a huge secret seeing as Hbox, M2K, PPMD and Armada play very safe and are very consistent while not being the the flashy and awesome combos at all times picking good situations to do a big punish.
" M2K, PPMD and Armada play very safe and are very consistent"
techskill is not the ability to do flashy things...its the ability to do basic things very precisely and consistently.
mindgames matter...sure...but only once your techskill is good enough that you actually do the things that you want to do.
also punish game is way more important than neutral in melee...i mean hbox m2k and armada all have ridiculous punish game. ppmd is definitely an exception when it comes to melee and how he relies on an amazing neutral so much.
basically if every time i hit you i kill you and it takes you three separate neutral wins to kill me youre pretty much guaranteed that youre going to lose unless im ridiculously bad in neutral.
0:18 Fox has a bunch of--- players....
LOL
This video is pretty good, but there's no mention of how insanely difficult + discouraging the puff/fox matchup is.
I love tafo
Hold up a few years.
Please make this type of video about ice climbers
What if jigglypuff is just weakens hbox so he's not too good and he can unlock his full potential with a god tier charecter
Obvs you didn't see Chu's HUGE puff the other day. Lmao
Because he put in like 100 times more work with puff.
why does the number of ice climbers players seem to be dropping despite the character consistently making top 16
Smh they haven't seen Kbarry play puff.
Gabriel Vielma i dont think most anyone has
Is that your roommate or something? I'm sure he's the greatest Puff player in your apartment.