PPMD's one of the original "teachers" of competitive smash. Back in the day I learned the Falco match-up just from one post of his since he'd explain everything each character was able to do at the time and what each player wants to do when either forcing or given their positioning. He's the type of player who prefers a well-developed meta over a meta that benefits him which is really special imo
Hope U good Peepee. I just watched ur run on apex 2014 2015, I was a young blood those days, I was seeing it with my big bro and I remembered when my bro said : damn, this man PPMD is a true monster, let's play for become more strong than them. And I never stopped smash since this Day ! U re my childhood hero dude, really make shine my days and shows me how Smash and eSports can actually be so hype and inspiring. Thx doc for everything, I prey for ur health and ur return bro, U look as a amazing guy, so sad I am in France 😂😂😢
Absolutely love the format of ranking stages in 3 different ways. Gives a much better understanding/justification of the rankings instead of 1 blanket ranking.
I’m probably the only person who enjoys playing on Unfrozen Pokemon Stadium, and honestly, I’m fine with that. It’s my personal favorite of Melee’s competitive stages, due to the variety brought about with the transformations, the level of creativity and player expression that the layout of the base stage and transformations can allow for, and the sheer fun and satisfaction of performing free form combos and utilizing the environments is something I can’t get enough of, and need I even mention pit fights and cliff fights? Now don’t get me wrong, I am more than aware of the stages flaws, such as the flow of the game being completely changed by whatever transformation pops up, waiting out certain transformations (Rock and Fire), and certain characters such as Fox, have an advantage over others due to his infinite combos. However, that doesn’t hinder my enjoyment of this stage, I enjoy the challenges and variety that it offers, I enjoy pushing my technical skills and character knowledge to their limits, and I enjoy the fun that can be had through pit/cliff fights, and performing sick combos, which can utilize the stages environments. Overall, these are just my opinions, and no matter what, I will always love, and enjoy playing on Unfrozen Stadium. Also, great vid PP, keep up the great work.
The problem with FoD for me is not so much that the platforms change, as much as it is that their motion isn't telegraphed, particularly when they come up out of the water. It can be a little out of nowhere and disruptive. That being said, I really, really don't want it to get banned. The matches there seem a lot more interesting and dynamic than say, Dreamland, in my opinion
I never thought about it like that. I actually love the random heights, but a visual indicator of some kind for when it's changing would have been awesome! Doesn't even need to show where it's gonna end imo, maybe just three quick flashes of something to say its about to move.
completely agree with FD in the first tier list even though it cuts down on movement options for my ganon. It makes neutral harder imo but punish game for certain low tiers might outweigh it
I think Cody has talked about this before too but FD is just a crazy stage for fox as well. in matchups where he doesn't get chaingrabbed, it's a monstrous stage, and even in the ones where he does, he's still very strong on it
I feel like spacies being more powerful on yoshis should be mentioned for balance. They can invincible ledge dash to center stage, kill off the top very early, and the small horizontal blastzones means there are less positions they can't recover from.
Fox has this much more than Falco, but I agree overall. The main argument for it still stands because for the rest of the cast the stage is going to be pretty good. But yeah, yoshis-only when spacies can do that and low tiers can have their stuff platform-canceled isn't great.
@@PPMD1 I think you also have to consider that Puff/Sheik/Peach/Samus can struggle on bigger stages because spacies (namely Fox) can play outside of their ranges. When you give these characters, especially Peach and Samus, a smaller stage and therefore allow them to box and scrap without having to make a big commitment like dash attack, it makes them a lot stronger and equalizes the gap between spacies and the high tiers. A lot of mid/low tiers struggle with mobility in general, so having a smaller stage like Yoshi's where they can't really be camped, can utilize platforms for movement, and have smaller blastzones to enhance their killing potential, they become a lot scarier in tight spaces.
@@jasonha4489 this is why FoD and FD are much better than DL or BF. You can't camp nearly as well on those stages and your punish is also enhanced while still allowing for their stronger recoveries to shine as well. YS is still pretty good but it's the WORST stage for a lot of those characters vs spacies because of how early they can kill, how easily they can get off the edge and therefore can't be corner trapped, and also how the platforms are perfect for attacking, defending, AND aiding combos while doing little for those floaties.
One type of content that i think you could do really well with is to do in depth breakdowns of what is happening in a match. E.g., are there patterns that one person is picking up on, what are the mixups, and so on. I'm sure there are lots of microinteractions that are really cool and interesting but are hard to pick up on. I know a moderate amount about SSBM but I'm sure that things have gotten way beyond what I knew in the past. Another related idea would be how the top players have gotten better over time. E.g how has the strategy for different characters evolved over the past 5 years or so. Also would be curious about things like what decision trees people use for edge guards, various fakeouts, etc. Are there certain rock-paper-scissors scenarios that play out in different matchups.
I appreciate you putting yourself out there like that to give your opinions on this stuff, and I think the format of the video was really nice and the editing was good as well (really loved that the stages continued their motion as thumbnail images). However, FoD and FD just can't be that healthy for the game. I do think that the main issue with FoD could be partially remedied if Melee had a better camera, but FD is too polarizing for me to not comment on it. Chain grabs and simpler punish game all around don't equate to a healthier stage for the game. Maybe one day I'll create a response video and really flesh out my counter arguments but yeah, I can't agree that FD is the healthiest stage of the competitive stages in Melee. It's a platform fighter and the "most balanced stage" is the stage that mysteriously doesn't have platforms? LOL Please keep doing what you're doing with this content, though! I hope that you are doing well, PP!
FD is the most polarizing stage in the game. Ics shiek, sheik dittos, spacies vs anyone with a chain grab, it just leads to whacky games. How many players talk about having to write off games and think about set counter picks purely because of FD
I love how, as a Marth whose least favorite stage is FD, spacies and floaties always strike it in ranked. Then, when I tend to body them on Yoshi's or especially on Dreamland, they get super confused. When I have a MU with a Marth, I actually like to go with Ness if I think they're going to choose FD, since I do far better with Ness than people tend to expect. Also, most don't know the MU well enough to realize that FD is arguably Ness' best stage as well.
Are there any stages that you would like to see come back or legalized for tournament play? It's probably hard to add more since outside of the stages we have now all the others aren't really suitable for one reason or another. Unique stages and layouts are what make platform fighters stand out from other competitive game, and it would be cool to see more of that if able.
I think if we added any stages back it would just upset people so probably not lol, but I think there isn't a great reason at least to ban mute city and maybe brinstar.
fwiw, I think I disagree with your take of FD for the first tier list (and like, to preface FD is my favorite stage, despite being a sheik player. I subjectively think the stage is sick, but I don't think it's necessarily balanced). my reasoning is that it is probably the most common stage to be one characters best counter pick in a given matchup. and like, a lot of the time that is benefitting the low-mid tier in a matchup. But if you're just looking at which stage is the most balanced, I think that being an extremely commonly counterpicked stage would make it less balanced, not more just because the worse character is usually the one counter picking it, because it is the one that deviates the furthest from the average of how the matchup goes, right?
When it comes to randomness, do you think that the quirks of the battlefield’s ledges could bump it to A+ rather than S? I know a lot of people have their complaints about it
I'm pretty noobish, being stuck in Silver all of last year (I'm not paying for ranked for now, so maybe I'd do better), but hard agree. I'm pretty much the only Marth I know who hates FD, mainly for its lack of mixup options which platforms present. Also, I like how people tend to seem to expect me to do well on FD, then beat me, and are baffled when I whoop them on Dreamland.
@@DrunkenHotei I have a Marth main friend who feels the same about FD. If you aren't great at nailing chaingrabs with Marth (or if that doesn't really fit your play style) the benefits for him are very reduced imo
@@chickenswallow I'm actually pretty solid with chaingrabs (though arguably kinda mediocre when it comes to upthowing spacies). I think my issue is that I use a lot of shield drops, ledge cancels, and wavelands, the first two of which are impossible on FD, and the last of which isn't nearly as effective in my opinion. I think I need to work on my punish game on FD in terms of when to fair, upair, or forward b. I still suck at setting up a simple ken combo in general, even though my tech skill is arguably pretty solid aside from that (for my silver-ish level, that is) Kodorin has expressed that he doesn't much care for FD though IIRC, so there are a lot of possible explanations (though you could attribute his dislike of the stage to his repeated admission that he's not much for chaingrabs, as you initially hypothesized).
Absolutely agree on FD being a fair stage, especially in the context of the other legal stages and how they interact with various matchups across the whole cast. I remember being pretty disappointed when it was made a counterpick with how it hurt a number of mid and low tiers in favor of buffing some of the high tiers who get punished harder on the stage. Also: Battlefield in B tier is Based. I often Ban it cause of top plat, lol.
I'd love to see a "what's best for the top tiers" list personally. I love low tiers, but low tier play isn't seen quite so often for the average Slippi player. Also, greetings from Atlanta! Sometimes I'll queue up on Slippi and google the tags of people that play really well, and they're often from NC! Much love from Jimmy Carterville.
Love the content. I feel like it is difficult task to group stage "balance" and "health of the game" in the same list. I would argue FD is one of the least balanced stages in a lot of match-ups, but having a diverse stage list is healthy for the game in the sense it provides variety. Having viable counter picks can make games feel important, like winning a game on FD in Fox/Marth. The goal is not to have perfect balance on a particular stage, but balance across a typical set.
I always find it hard to land on concrete feelings towards stage selection. A part of me likes the asymmetry and rng some stages offer from an entertainment pov and gameplay variety that ensues, and then another part of me wants to remove randall, transformations and wispy wind, and then another part of me wants to allow custom "perfect" stages to be legal. But each of these things have their own issues and maybe one day when I'm more enlightened I'll find some conclusions here lol In terms of the puff falcon dreamland thing, aren't characters tier lists also often based on the legal stages in motion?
Dreamland as C? Why you gotta break my heart, PP? I'm like, the only Marth main I know of whose favorite stage is DL (or at least it's tied with Yoshi's for me, but since I second Ness sometimes, I have issues with it) and whose least favorite is FD. Still, I love your analysis, as always. You never fail to give essential information I would have taken many years to figure out myself (if ever lol).
I’m really surprised FD was as high as it was on all three lists. I think FD is pretty much the most uncreative stage in the game when it comes to both neutral and punish, with platform movement and combos being completely taken away. It leaves the punish game super stale, where there is almost no nuance and the optimal combos are always extremely obvious
I like the A tier placement for FD in the 3rd tier, the background is very distracting to someone with ADHD, and is a very large issue in Ultimate as well...sometimes simple is just nice to see!
I think this is a fantastic conversation, but I would like to introduce something that you didn't touch on. You talked about how we have banned certain stages because we wanted to play the player and not necessarily the stage because of its influence. Why don't we consider as much that adaptability and flexibility on these wonky stages is a skill. We have after all, all seen certain players demonstrate this skill navigating the cloud on Yoshi's story. We've also seen players take advantage of the positions that the platforms on FoD move to. I think that these kinds of nuances to stages are additive to the game. Rainbow Cruise and Mute City, perhaps were banworthy 15 years ago l, but we might find that these stages are less impactful nowadays due to the relative player skill having risen. We just saw AMSA take advantage of Mute city in this way. As a spectator it is certainly very exciting, and imo healthy for the longevity of the game from that point of view.
When it comes to regular pokemon stadium, I don't hate any transformation, but I hate when any transformation is happening. The screen in the background gives you a warning, but it sucks. FoD platforms have the same issue.
For the "meta" list: It needs to be more balanced for both the high tiers AND low tiers. Usually it's only one or the other, although I think FD gets closest to this with YS being close behind. For "fun": that might just be a me thing lol. I think I'd like combining elements of FoD+FD and having a long stage with maybe a smaller central platform that isn't too high off the ground. That might get me there but it's hard to say without playing it.
I think "jank" would be a good factor to include when ranking by RNG by as well. Falling through floors on stadium, unexpected SD from battlefield ledges, surviving a spike by accidentally hitting Randall. Might not be proper RNG, but still something of a "luck" factor that impacts games.
I will say Battlefield has some classic melee jank that, while not truly random, can *feel* random. Notably the issues with grabbing ledge in certain scenarios. Also the mewtwo thing is not great but honestly it's so niche and since mewtwo is a low tier, i feel like he's allowed to have it (even though when slippi mewtwos do it to me i rage)
I actually don't know if such a perfect stage can exist because some characters really hate platforms and some like them, but maybe something like an FD with a single, smaller, lower than PS platform in the middle might be a good way to get there
Yoshis story ez SS tier if Randall and shy guys are removed. FD is good but no plans defeats the identity of smash lol prolly B tier. Frozen Stadium? Near perfection. Basically better FD imo, just the ledges act strange once in a while.. S tier
I don't think ranking these stages on matchups alone is really a fair assessment, the most important thing should be if the stage is 'fun', both to play and watch.
ive gotten back into melee recently with slippi and i have to say i truly hate dreamland 64. whispy woods drives me nuts the screen shake is unbearable for me
The rules could maybe fit in one transformation, and make the ledges snappable. But thats out of my control. Maybe Slippi could make it happen. It would be nice. unlikely but a fun thought.
PPMD is who got me into the competitive melee all those years ago and seeing him do well in 2024 is such a blessing.
Same here. I'll always have unconditional love for PPMD. Win, lose, active or inactive.
Me too! The first Smash tournament I ever saw was Apex 2015, and PPMD's insanely smooth performance made me a Marth main for life.
That's a crazy first experience to have, nice@@ilangated
PPMD's one of the original "teachers" of competitive smash. Back in the day I learned the Falco match-up just from one post of his since he'd explain everything each character was able to do at the time and what each player wants to do when either forcing or given their positioning.
He's the type of player who prefers a well-developed meta over a meta that benefits him which is really special imo
PP! I'm just here to say that you're my alltime favorite e sports player and I wish you the best, man=)! Been watching you for a decade.
Miss you Doc. Hope you're doing well.
Hope U good Peepee. I just watched ur run on apex 2014 2015, I was a young blood those days, I was seeing it with my big bro and I remembered when my bro said : damn, this man PPMD is a true monster, let's play for become more strong than them. And I never stopped smash since this Day ! U re my childhood hero dude, really make shine my days and shows me how Smash and eSports can actually be so hype and inspiring. Thx doc for everything, I prey for ur health and ur return bro, U look as a amazing guy, so sad I am in France 😂😂😢
Curious to see how the "formerly legal" stages would get labelled.
I might do that later if this does well!!
@@PPMD1do it please
@@PPMD1 Would consume this content and stream it to my friends on Discord
Oh please do. I think your analysis would provide great insight into legal stages by extension of your analyses.@@PPMD1
@@PPMD1 Rainbow Cruise SSS Tier
Absolutely love the format of ranking stages in 3 different ways. Gives a much better understanding/justification of the rankings instead of 1 blanket ranking.
I’m probably the only person who enjoys playing on Unfrozen Pokemon Stadium, and honestly, I’m fine with that. It’s my personal favorite of Melee’s competitive stages, due to the variety brought about with the transformations, the level of creativity and player expression that the layout of the base stage and transformations can allow for, and the sheer fun and satisfaction of performing free form combos and utilizing the environments is something I can’t get enough of, and need I even mention pit fights and cliff fights? Now don’t get me wrong, I am more than aware of the stages flaws, such as the flow of the game being completely changed by whatever transformation pops up, waiting out certain transformations (Rock and Fire), and certain characters such as Fox, have an advantage over others due to his infinite combos. However, that doesn’t hinder my enjoyment of this stage, I enjoy the challenges and variety that it offers, I enjoy pushing my technical skills and character knowledge to their limits, and I enjoy the fun that can be had through pit/cliff fights, and performing sick combos, which can utilize the stages environments. Overall, these are just my opinions, and no matter what, I will always love, and enjoy playing on Unfrozen Stadium. Also, great vid PP, keep up the great work.
The hairs looking great Kev, sick!
The problem with FoD for me is not so much that the platforms change, as much as it is that their motion isn't telegraphed, particularly when they come up out of the water. It can be a little out of nowhere and disruptive. That being said, I really, really don't want it to get banned. The matches there seem a lot more interesting and dynamic than say, Dreamland, in my opinion
I never thought about it like that. I actually love the random heights, but a visual indicator of some kind for when it's changing would have been awesome! Doesn't even need to show where it's gonna end imo, maybe just three quick flashes of something to say its about to move.
I think, compared to the whacky nonsense that is flatzone or yoshi64.... fod really is NOT that bad
Kevin!! You're looking good,
"I'm people" - pplmd
Hey PP I gave you an incredibly awkward fist bump at SKTAR 3 love what you've done for melee homie
You’ve aged so well you still look so young after so many years
I thought you just left the internet
completely agree with FD in the first tier list even though it cuts down on movement options for my ganon. It makes neutral harder imo but punish game for certain low tiers might outweigh it
I think Cody has talked about this before too but FD is just a crazy stage for fox as well. in matchups where he doesn't get chaingrabbed, it's a monstrous stage, and even in the ones where he does, he's still very strong on it
I feel like spacies being more powerful on yoshis should be mentioned for balance. They can invincible ledge dash to center stage, kill off the top very early, and the small horizontal blastzones means there are less positions they can't recover from.
Fox has this much more than Falco, but I agree overall. The main argument for it still stands because for the rest of the cast the stage is going to be pretty good. But yeah, yoshis-only when spacies can do that and low tiers can have their stuff platform-canceled isn't great.
@@PPMD1 I think you also have to consider that Puff/Sheik/Peach/Samus can struggle on bigger stages because spacies (namely Fox) can play outside of their ranges. When you give these characters, especially Peach and Samus, a smaller stage and therefore allow them to box and scrap without having to make a big commitment like dash attack, it makes them a lot stronger and equalizes the gap between spacies and the high tiers.
A lot of mid/low tiers struggle with mobility in general, so having a smaller stage like Yoshi's where they can't really be camped, can utilize platforms for movement, and have smaller blastzones to enhance their killing potential, they become a lot scarier in tight spaces.
@@jasonha4489 this is why FoD and FD are much better than DL or BF. You can't camp nearly as well on those stages and your punish is also enhanced while still allowing for their stronger recoveries to shine as well. YS is still pretty good but it's the WORST stage for a lot of those characters vs spacies because of how early they can kill, how easily they can get off the edge and therefore can't be corner trapped, and also how the platforms are perfect for attacking, defending, AND aiding combos while doing little for those floaties.
One type of content that i think you could do really well with is to do in depth breakdowns of what is happening in a match. E.g., are there patterns that one person is picking up on, what are the mixups, and so on. I'm sure there are lots of microinteractions that are really cool and interesting but are hard to pick up on. I know a moderate amount about SSBM but I'm sure that things have gotten way beyond what I knew in the past.
Another related idea would be how the top players have gotten better over time. E.g how has the strategy for different characters evolved over the past 5 years or so. Also would be curious about things like what decision trees people use for edge guards, various fakeouts, etc. Are there certain rock-paper-scissors scenarios that play out in different matchups.
I appreciate you putting yourself out there like that to give your opinions on this stuff, and I think the format of the video was really nice and the editing was good as well (really loved that the stages continued their motion as thumbnail images).
However, FoD and FD just can't be that healthy for the game. I do think that the main issue with FoD could be partially remedied if Melee had a better camera, but FD is too polarizing for me to not comment on it. Chain grabs and simpler punish game all around don't equate to a healthier stage for the game. Maybe one day I'll create a response video and really flesh out my counter arguments but yeah, I can't agree that FD is the healthiest stage of the competitive stages in Melee. It's a platform fighter and the "most balanced stage" is the stage that mysteriously doesn't have platforms? LOL
Please keep doing what you're doing with this content, though! I hope that you are doing well, PP!
FD is the most polarizing stage in the game. Ics shiek, sheik dittos, spacies vs anyone with a chain grab, it just leads to whacky games. How many players talk about having to write off games and think about set counter picks purely because of FD
I love how, as a Marth whose least favorite stage is FD, spacies and floaties always strike it in ranked. Then, when I tend to body them on Yoshi's or especially on Dreamland, they get super confused.
When I have a MU with a Marth, I actually like to go with Ness if I think they're going to choose FD, since I do far better with Ness than people tend to expect. Also, most don't know the MU well enough to realize that FD is arguably Ness' best stage as well.
Love some good PPMD content!!! also want to point out TH-cam thinks the video is about Yoshi's Story the N64 game LOL
The way pp didn’t rank yoshis in s tier despite years of maiming marth is what proves that he’s equally as good with falco no I will not elaborate
where is the melee content bro? WE MISS U
Are there any stages that you would like to see come back or legalized for tournament play?
It's probably hard to add more since outside of the stages we have now all the others aren't really suitable for one reason or another. Unique stages and layouts are what make platform fighters stand out from other competitive game, and it would be cool to see more of that if able.
I think if we added any stages back it would just upset people so probably not lol, but I think there isn't a great reason at least to ban mute city and maybe brinstar.
ah yes, now i can point to the stage being the problem when i miss 22 grabs in a row!
fwiw, I think I disagree with your take of FD for the first tier list (and like, to preface FD is my favorite stage, despite being a sheik player. I subjectively think the stage is sick, but I don't think it's necessarily balanced). my reasoning is that it is probably the most common stage to be one characters best counter pick in a given matchup. and like, a lot of the time that is benefitting the low-mid tier in a matchup. But if you're just looking at which stage is the most balanced, I think that being an extremely commonly counterpicked stage would make it less balanced, not more just because the worse character is usually the one counter picking it, because it is the one that deviates the furthest from the average of how the matchup goes, right?
I love Unfrozen Stadium as a viewer and I hope it sticks around forever.
the return of the red arrow
When it comes to randomness, do you think that the quirks of the battlefield’s ledges could bump it to A+ rather than S? I know a lot of people have their complaints about it
I am shocked to see PP say that FD is the most balanced stage in the game...seems like battlefield and frozen stadium should be higher at least
I'm pretty noobish, being stuck in Silver all of last year (I'm not paying for ranked for now, so maybe I'd do better), but hard agree. I'm pretty much the only Marth I know who hates FD, mainly for its lack of mixup options which platforms present. Also, I like how people tend to seem to expect me to do well on FD, then beat me, and are baffled when I whoop them on Dreamland.
@@DrunkenHotei I have a Marth main friend who feels the same about FD. If you aren't great at nailing chaingrabs with Marth (or if that doesn't really fit your play style) the benefits for him are very reduced imo
@@chickenswallow I'm actually pretty solid with chaingrabs (though arguably kinda mediocre when it comes to upthowing spacies). I think my issue is that I use a lot of shield drops, ledge cancels, and wavelands, the first two of which are impossible on FD, and the last of which isn't nearly as effective in my opinion.
I think I need to work on my punish game on FD in terms of when to fair, upair, or forward b. I still suck at setting up a simple ken combo in general, even though my tech skill is arguably pretty solid aside from that (for my silver-ish level, that is)
Kodorin has expressed that he doesn't much care for FD though IIRC, so there are a lot of possible explanations (though you could attribute his dislike of the stage to his repeated admission that he's not much for chaingrabs, as you initially hypothesized).
Thumbnail on fleek
Crazy how different opinions are. On the first tierlist, I would‘ve put FD in D-tier
That's just because you probably main a fast faller
@@TheRealSorav Its not a tierlist about fastfallers. Its a tierlist about the overal balencing of the stage.
Still glad you’re still going strong dude, hope you’ve been well!
You've really grown into the long hair, lookin good PP
Absolutely agree on FD being a fair stage, especially in the context of the other legal stages and how they interact with various matchups across the whole cast. I remember being pretty disappointed when it was made a counterpick with how it hurt a number of mid and low tiers in favor of buffing some of the high tiers who get punished harder on the stage.
Also: Battlefield in B tier is Based. I often Ban it cause of top plat, lol.
whoa havent seen one of your vids in a while looking good with the long hair!
Great video, I have almost opposite opinions!
I’d say unfrozen pokemon stadium is SS tier for the chaos, fun factor, and occasional hype cliffhanger fights
I'd love to see a "what's best for the top tiers" list personally. I love low tiers, but low tier play isn't seen quite so often for the average Slippi player.
Also, greetings from Atlanta! Sometimes I'll queue up on Slippi and google the tags of people that play really well, and they're often from NC! Much love from Jimmy Carterville.
Thanks for the content pp keep ‘em coming
Great video! 3 different lists for different criteria is a great idea
Love the content. I feel like it is difficult task to group stage "balance" and "health of the game" in the same list. I would argue FD is one of the least balanced stages in a lot of match-ups, but having a diverse stage list is healthy for the game in the sense it provides variety. Having viable counter picks can make games feel important, like winning a game on FD in Fox/Marth. The goal is not to have perfect balance on a particular stage, but balance across a typical set.
Off topic but I Love you PPMD
Let’s go PPMD!
I always find it hard to land on concrete feelings towards stage selection. A part of me likes the asymmetry and rng some stages offer from an entertainment pov and gameplay variety that ensues, and then another part of me wants to remove randall, transformations and wispy wind, and then another part of me wants to allow custom "perfect" stages to be legal. But each of these things have their own issues and maybe one day when I'm more enlightened I'll find some conclusions here lol
In terms of the puff falcon dreamland thing, aren't characters tier lists also often based on the legal stages in motion?
did slippi fix that glitch where u can randomly fall through stadium?
no, but they just have frozen stadium enabled by default to prevent desyncs
Dreamland as C? Why you gotta break my heart, PP? I'm like, the only Marth main I know of whose favorite stage is DL (or at least it's tied with Yoshi's for me, but since I second Ness sometimes, I have issues with it) and whose least favorite is FD.
Still, I love your analysis, as always. You never fail to give essential information I would have taken many years to figure out myself (if ever lol).
bro u look healthy and ready to continue your story.
Love the content, hope you are doing well !
diggin the haircut
I'm curious, in the first tier list, you talk about extremes and why a stage is rated lower, then you rate the most extreme stage the highest.
I’m really surprised FD was as high as it was on all three lists. I think FD is pretty much the most uncreative stage in the game when it comes to both neutral and punish, with platform movement and combos being completely taken away. It leaves the punish game super stale, where there is almost no nuance and the optimal combos are always extremely obvious
Great video!
Big PP vid to end my night? Nothin better than that ❤
-FAiLCO
Stadium floor stage is longer than FD?
YEP
I like the A tier placement for FD in the 3rd tier, the background is very distracting to someone with ADHD, and is a very large issue in Ultimate as well...sometimes simple is just nice to see!
I think this is a fantastic conversation, but I would like to introduce something that you didn't touch on. You talked about how we have banned certain stages because we wanted to play the player and not necessarily the stage because of its influence. Why don't we consider as much that adaptability and flexibility on these wonky stages is a skill. We have after all, all seen certain players demonstrate this skill navigating the cloud on Yoshi's story. We've also seen players take advantage of the positions that the platforms on FoD move to. I think that these kinds of nuances to stages are additive to the game. Rainbow Cruise and Mute City, perhaps were banworthy 15 years ago l, but we might find that these stages are less impactful nowadays due to the relative player skill having risen. We just saw AMSA take advantage of Mute city in this way. As a spectator it is certainly very exciting, and imo healthy for the longevity of the game from that point of view.
Hey king, loving your hair right now. Looking handsome
When it comes to regular pokemon stadium, I don't hate any transformation, but I hate when any transformation is happening. The screen in the background gives you a warning, but it sucks. FoD platforms have the same issue.
I notice you don't have any S tier stages in your first two lists. What would it take for a stage to make it there?
For the "meta" list: It needs to be more balanced for both the high tiers AND low tiers. Usually it's only one or the other, although I think FD gets closest to this with YS being close behind.
For "fun": that might just be a me thing lol. I think I'd like combining elements of FoD+FD and having a long stage with maybe a smaller central platform that isn't too high off the ground. That might get me there but it's hard to say without playing it.
I think "jank" would be a good factor to include when ranking by RNG by as well. Falling through floors on stadium, unexpected SD from battlefield ledges, surviving a spike by accidentally hitting Randall. Might not be proper RNG, but still something of a "luck" factor that impacts games.
I will say Battlefield has some classic melee jank that, while not truly random, can *feel* random. Notably the issues with grabbing ledge in certain scenarios.
Also the mewtwo thing is not great but honestly it's so niche and since mewtwo is a low tier, i feel like he's allowed to have it (even though when slippi mewtwos do it to me i rage)
What do you think would be a perfect modded stage for competitive?
Battlefield with either walls down to the blast zone on the stage or just fixed edges, and the existing frozen pokemon stadium
Adding a smashville where the platform only moves within the bounds of the stage would be sick
I actually don't know if such a perfect stage can exist because some characters really hate platforms and some like them, but maybe something like an FD with a single, smaller, lower than PS platform in the middle might be a good way to get there
@@PPMD1 Can you suggest 2 healthy stages for counter picking? 1 for characters that like platforms and 1 for characters that don't
What would an S tier stage be? Smashville?
Rip PPMD
??
I agree with everything except fd. Too vulnerable to chain grabs give it a lowered tier, should be about B.
Great video sir!
My GOAT
this much focus on how lower tiers perform is surprising to me
I love PP, but the first tier list is wild, getting close to unhinged territory.
please tell me the thumbnail is satirical
I love fountain of dreams the best! A Falco can do some scary stuff on those low platforms
I don't love fountain of the dreams the best anymore...
“How much RNG impacts gameplay-“
Me: *thinking about FoD platforms* ehehehehe
lovely content pp thx
I am now fully convinced PP will never come back to competitive melee. I called this years ago.
If it's n😢t final destination, I'm gonna cry
While Tier lists may not matter in ultimate.
Tier list really matter in Melee
mr beast pulsing text got me Engaged i Will enjoy this video‼
really nice content
Can’t believe I wasn’t subscribed to you on TH-cam, huge throw by me.
The problem with the ruleset is not the stagelist, it's that "no bans just dsr" is absolutely stupid
yoshis and frozen pokemon are gigachad
that vid of u vs hbox blew up. there are no top falcos. u got nothin to lose
Yoshis story ez SS tier if Randall and shy guys are removed.
FD is good but no plans defeats the identity of smash lol prolly B tier.
Frozen Stadium? Near perfection. Basically better FD imo, just the ledges act strange once in a while.. S tier
Algo comment, keep it up pp!!
The GOAT pp! LFG
i love you PP
Battlefield is the goat competitive stage
lol if you can do a campy strategy to another camper on a stage it's UNHEALTHY and there was NOTHING THE OPPONENT COULD DO
I don't think ranking these stages on matchups alone is really a fair assessment, the most important thing should be if the stage is 'fun', both to play and watch.
metalbending on sector z
As a roy main
Yoshi's should be in S
Final Destination is not fun
ive gotten back into melee recently with slippi and i have to say i truly hate dreamland 64. whispy woods drives me nuts the screen shake is unbearable for me
bros never even played on frozen PS before
I have plenty of times
Harris Margaret Hall David Lee Larry
Fontain of Dreams>>>>>
Mute city 2024…
The rules could maybe fit in one transformation, and make the ledges snappable.
But thats out of my control. Maybe Slippi could make it happen.
It would be nice. unlikely but a fun thought.
As a melee purest let me start off by saying I really really don't like battlefield and I'm a captain Falcon main.
Is ppmd an egg
What happened to this guy?
he did competitive stages so pokefloats wouldn’t dominate the list
dreamland by far the worst legal stage. i hate it so much